Field Sales Leadership Guide

6. Working Together to Overcome Obstacles and the Sales Tools that Reps Need with Kevin Dunbrack at McCarthy & Sons

• Map My Customers • Episode 6

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Kevin Dunbrack from Canadian vet supply rep agency McCarthy & Sons Service knew early on in his sales career that leading and growing a team was his professional passion. Collaboration and problem solving help his team share insights and overcome obstacles. Learn about his approach to leadership, his role as the bad guy, and the tech tools he uses to build strong relationships with clients and how it drives adoption and usage.

“I don't like managing people, I like leading people. So I don't want to be correcting you or telling you that you have to do something. I want to show you that doing something is going to be valuable. And so for me to police my reps or to make sure you're like to say you have to log your calls, it's a waste of everyone's time. So let's figure out how this is valuable for all of us. And then we'll just do it,” explains Kevin Dunbrack, McCarthy & Sons.


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About the Podcast

We've lined up for you some of the smartest movers and shakers in sales leadership to share their formulas for success and the tricks of the trade. The Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast discusses with experienced and successful sales leaders what works and what doesn't in the sales profession. Listen in as we tap into high performing sales leaders and their passion for field sales. Join us as we pull back the curtain giving you actionable insights and strategies that you can use with your sales team.


About the Sponsor

Traditional CRM aren’t designed with outside sales reps in mind. They're too cumbersome, complex and time consuming and lack mobile-friendly options. Use Map My Customers as the CRM of record or as the tip of the spear for your existing CRM. Designed specifically for outside sales reps, Map My Customers is a mobile-first platform that strategically segments accounts, provides optimized routing and mapping tools, activity logging and much more. Get a free hands-on tour at https://smarturl.it/mmc-trial. 


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JT Rimbey  00:01

Welcome to the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast where we discuss with experienced and successful sales leaders what works and what doesn't in the sales profession. Join us as we tap into high performing sales leaders and their passion for field sales. We've lined up for you some of the smartest movers and shakers in sales leadership to share their formulas for success and the tricks of the trade. Join us as we pull back the curtain, giving you actionable insights and strategies that you can use with your sales team. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast. Sales leaders, this is the place where you can listen to our guests and learn from their experience, their expertise, try things with your own team, and sharpen your own sword as a leader, mentor and coach to support your team. Be sure to send me a message on LinkedIn and let me know what you think. Did you catch the last episode with Bryant Davis? I hope you did. His experience in senior sales leadership with some of the world's biggest brands is impressive and inspiring. You'll enjoy the discussion. Check it out if you've missed it. Today's guest is Kevin Dunbrack. Kevin is the Chief Operating Officer of Canadian vet supply company McCarthy and Sons. Following his undergrad work and college football career at the University of Western Ontario, he's gone on to become a fantastic leader. Being a team player and the importance of coaching are certainly not lost on him. Collaboration is at the core of his approach to leadership. Get ready to see how leadership excellence and operational execution come together on this well-oiled team. Kevin, I'm a big fan. And I'm sure our listeners will become one as well. Welcome to the podcast. So starting out, I really enjoy hearing these background stories, Kevin, how did you get into sales?


Kevin Dunbrack  02:03

I have a lot of family who was in sales and always admired kind of what they were doing. But specifically, I have one cousin who was an independent sales rep in the toy world. And she wrote me in and got me into trade shows and out on calls. And the big catch for me was she had a red convertible, and she'd hand me the keys, and I would take off when I was 19-20 and go into calls or whatever. And I thought this is a job like I could do this for a living. And so the cool factor, the independence and the make your own future was really the big one for me. So she had a huge play in it. And yeah, I just thought this could be work. I could do this. I don't want to sit at a desk. But driving a convertible wasn't too bad.


JT Rimbey  02:44

That's awesome. The freedom and flexibility and I like the independence in there. That's awesome. That was always a good, a good selling point from the cousin to you to get you started. That's fantastic. Okay, so how did you get into sales leadership,


Kevin Dunbrack  02:57

I had a great opportunity working at Enterprise Rent a Car. Actually, I look for sales reps who have had that experience, because you do everything you're wearing your suit and tie. You're vacuuming the car, you're doing the sales, you're doing the marketing, you're answering the phones, you're running the p&l. So I learned a lot of how business functions there. You got to dabble in everything. And I really enjoyed team building. I played sports growing up, and being part of a team and making the team better is my motivation. So I was never the best sales rep, but I really wanted to make the team grow and be successful. For me, that's my motivation. So I was working at another company and saw a whole lot of gaps and how we were doing things, how we were commissioning people, and a lot of inefficiencies. So I kept bugging the owner. Just saying like we can do this better the way you're paying me I can kind of hit my max halfway through the year and mail it in. And a lot of sales reps did that, but I wanted to improve everything and make it a better spot. So he gave me an opportunity there to do some sales management and to grow some business and it just kind of went from there. I really enjoyed that challenge of how do we make everyone better, make the company stronger. And for me I take great pride in that you know where I am now we offer really good jobs, really good work life balance and a spot for people to grow in their skill set. And so that's for me that's my motivation. It wasn't ever how do I make the big commission. It was I want to see us collectively do best and that's sort of team mentality I think I learned through sport years ago and it's what drives me.


JT Rimbey  04:32

I love the team mentality concept of this because what hooked you with your cousin was the red convertible and the independence. I'm sure that you would be willing to attest that you lose some independence when you step into sales leadership. Tying that back to your days on the grid iron makes logical sense to me. Okay, so some core blocking and tackling football pun intended there. For our listeners. Just give a little bit of background on McCarthy and Son, who your customers are, and then ultimately how you engage with those customers.


Kevin Dunbrack  05:05

Absolutely. McCarthy and Sons has been in business for over 50 years. We're a small, independent pharmaceutical supplier to the Canadian veterinary market. We also act as a rep agency for some equipment and other products. So we have a good mix of what we do. Our clients are Canadian veterinarians, and we are specific to the country because of drug establishment rules. We have to be approved by Health Canada. And obviously, if we were to sell somewhere else by, by regulations in that country, so solely focused on the Canadian veterinary market, which would be number one is that clinics are where you're taking your dog or cat for their annual checkup, animal hospitals, and then of course, we dabble into the training facilities, so universities that have veterinary programs or tech programs, and then some research facilities, but the biggest chunk of our business is the independent single vet clinic.


JT Rimbey  05:54

So with the vet clinic, is the actual target customer, the veterinarian themselves? Are you going after office managers? Who is the main point of contact that you're going after?


Kevin Dunbrack  06:05

That's a really cool question when we talk about with my reps all the time, because it depends on what we're selling. So there's some things very specific that a veterinarian who's the oversight of everything medical in the clinic is going to be our key decision maker. Often in an independent, they're the owner of the business as well. There are some conglomerates where their employees, and then there's a whole lot of other products we offer where the vet techs or even the front office staff are the coaches are the decision maker that doesn't want to decide on a nutraceutical. They're happy for what makes the tech happy, what are they happy using so there's a bit of both, and we're fortunate to have products that fit both. So if we're on a sales call, and we're able to talk to the vet, we're gonna steer one way, if we're talking to a tech, we're going to steer to a different product, and selling anything builds our experience in relationship to that clinic to sell them something else.


JT Rimbey  06:57

That's actually one of the reasons why I love sales, because when you specifically start engaging with veterinarians, for example, I personally would like to take my pet to a veterinarian that focuses solely on the practice of fantastic care for my pet. But the transition or the flip side of that is even got some veterinarians that love the actual business side of owning and running their clinic as well. So they're business minded, they're medically minded. And that's a real challenge for your reps to figure out, like, is this the decision maker? Or is there a really strong point of contact that's going to influence this entire relationship that I don't even know about right now.


Kevin Dunbrack  07:39

I agree, there are some vets that are business-minded have the challenges. It's not many, and I mean, veterinarian school, their doctors and their doctors have multi species. So they learned a lot. They get about two weeks in Canada, at least of business, management, business training. And so for the most part, they're not thinking that way. And everyone in this industry is here, because they love animals. And so really, what they're trying to do in their clinic is provide the best care. That's number one. The challenge is pet owners, there's a cost. And so how do we make sure we have products or services that can be delivered at a reasonable price to a pet owner. And then let us give the best care. They're not taught sales, so they don't know how to sell a service to a pet owner. And in Canada, we do pay for our health care as a person through taxes. But when I go with a broken arm, I don't pay for an x-ray. When I take my dog to the vet, I see how much an x-ray actually costs. And so there's that hurdle as well, plus they don't have the business or sales training. So when we approach them, we want to say that this product is going to help them deliver the best care possible, but show them how it'll do it at a reasonable cost so you can get the pet owners to agree to providing that care. That's why so many vets own 1000 dogs or cats, because people surrender their animals that they don't want to take that extra step or pay for a surgery that animal needs.


JT Rimbey  09:01

That's fantastic background I I've not thought about all the dynamics between the US and Canadian healthcare, you have a real opportunity to help educate the business process of that.


Kevin Dunbrack  09:12

in the vet world, they think profit is a bad word. And so we go in and talk about, you know, profits, the only thing that keeps you open so that you can provide more and better care. And so if we have a piece of equipment that they can make money off of, that's a good thing because it lets them deliver good care with this equipment, but then also and grow and invest in their business so they can provide even more care to more animals. So understanding that profits not a bad word in that world is really an education piece we do and it helps our business and our industry grow.


JT Rimbey  09:43

So transitioning to the relationship side of this. You're describing an educational component and typically you have to have a relationship before you're able to really, really legitimately educate a veterinarian to shift their negative mindset about the word profit or the concept of profit. Canada is huge, it's huge. How do you cover that breadth of a geography?


Kevin Dunbrack  10:08

Canada is huge. Our population is relatively small. I mean, there's more people in the state of California than there is in Canada. We're about 30 million people. So it is huge. And the populations primarily located near the border, but there's tons of land north of that. So part of our challenge is we have reps across Canada. So I've got about 10. And we work in seven time zones and ocean to ocean so so it's tough, and each rep has roughly 700 clinics that they're responsible for, which is huge. And so taking on that is a big deal. So we really want to take advantage of knowing where our clinics are and and putting our reps in the best spot so they can be active.


JT Rimbey  10:50

Having large territories and big books of business can be a challenge to organizationally manage, but also in relationship building. What helps your team keep these territories organized, while building strong relationships across their client base?


Kevin Dunbrack  11:06

COVID has helped us learn a lot of things that driving to rural clinics in northern Alberta, where you'll spend 20 minutes in the clinic and four hours on the road, isn't that efficient. So we like to visualize where things are, our CRM helps us do that. It's a map based so we can see what's going on, we use kind of hotspots and can say, well, these cities, we can have a very productive day on the road, because we're only 20 minutes between clinics. But the ones in northern parts are more remote. Those ones, let's address them through other technologies. Zoom is great, or whatever platform for video, phone, email, or we really upped our game and social media and using email newsletters and things like that to share our information. So it is huge, it's a lot of work for our reps to do, and plan. So being able to see their day visually before they go out. I mean, 700 clinics, you talked about building a relationship. I don't care how great your memory is, you're not going to remember everyone. So we make the best of technology, we use our CRM, to have notes about the individuals in the clinic. So if we met with, you know, this tech today, we're logging notes, not about just what we talked about in the sales process, what we learned about that person. So hey, they're going on vacation, we're writing that down, this is not a secret. And then we go back, and we ask them, we know their kids names, we keep that stuff down. Because if you can make that connection, it's great. And over years, our reps actually do have phenomenal relationships with these people. But the problem is to start that and get it going and do that for 700 clinics with 10-20 staff, it's really a challenge and the staff moves around. So within our industry, you're going to move to another clinic, you don't go to a whole different field often. So we follow people, we're able to move them in our CRM, so we knew them at this company. And now we know them here. And back here, they love this product. But this claim doesn't use it. And that's a great end for us. So we just reconnect, we talk about what we've done in the past, we have all that information in front of us, you know, you scan your notes before you go in and you can have that discussion, we're even able to attach pictures, every vet clinics has the meet our team on the website, with these great pictures ever holding their pet. And so we take those into our CRM, so you can look and say, Okay, I do remember this person, because I can see their face before I walk in the door. And there's no you walk in the door and recognize their face. But trying to pick out the name, it's we've we've got that instantly before we walk in. So those tools help us cheat, I don't know, help us build relationships. So we're just using every advantage and and if you don't, you're never going to be able to manage that many people and build those relationships. And the flip side is we talked about, we have a lot of products that fit a lot of different spots. So one day, they probably don't want to talk about an ultrasound machine, it's a big investment. It's a detailed sell. But if we can go in and sell them a consumable product that they're going to use, or it's going to help or it's just a fun one, we build that trust, our products are good, you're going to use them, you're going to sell them, or whatever capacity it is, it may be a drug for surgery, but it's something that's going to make your life better. And as soon as we have that one win, then we build some loyalty and trust that the next thing I'm going to show you is actually going to be just as good. We're careful about the products we represent. We're careful about the products that we manufacture ourselves, and so that it does offer really good value. And it's a quality product. So how do we make sure we keep doing that? And then the next thing in our portfolio we know is going to match that and the clinics can trust that oh, it came from these guys. So it probably does check these boxes.


JT Rimbey  14:38

Kevin, I've come to learn that you are a tremendous sales coach, mentor and leader for your team. Collaboration is something that takes absolute center stage in your leadership style. Share a bit about how and why that is how did that come about?


Kevin Dunbrack  14:56

I mentioned team. I love team, I love team building. I'm remote. They're all remote. That's a huge challenge to get everyone together. I mean, the reps have all the knowledge in the company, if you think otherwise, you're wrong. Your sales reps are your biggest asset. So how do we get them all together and how do we grow and share that team knowledge? So we do a lot of like, we have zoom calls once a week where we chat. I try not to have too much on the agenda. It's more, here's the information people might have been asking, let me share it or here's an experience that happened in BC. You know, our rep Julian in BC, can you share that with everyone else, because it's important, and it will make its way across Canada. So building a team on a remote is tough for me to be able to see and keep all that information on a CRM is huge, because I can see what's going on with all of my reps, I can see hurdles, and I can see victory. So we share this, we talk about our success, we talk about our stories, and then we bring in some of our vendors. So trying to do team building across the masses thing is a big challenge for me. I encourage my reps to not just travel with me like some people like it when the boss comes on, go travel with another rep, you know, especially a newer rep with an older rep, or if I see two dynamic personalities, go check out what they're doing. You know, one might be extremely professional one might be extremely casual, they can both take pieces from each other. So for whatever the cost of a flight in a hotel room, it's so valuable for our reps to see each other to just jump in on how someone else is doing it. And if people aren't doing that, trust your reps and use them to train each other, even if their peers and at the same level. There's a whole lot of great learning that can happen on different approaches. And you don't see that on a zoom call once a week, you see it hands on in front of a clinic.


JT Rimbey  16:35

In a couple of our prior conversations, you had mentioned that when you do ride alongs, you focus on problem accounts. I want to dive in deeper there. I really sincerely want to congratulate you on this. I get to speak with sales leaders each and every day, and it is rare that I come across a sales leader that is putting co-workers or peers together for co-learning in those scenarios. I love that. And I love that our listeners just got to hear that approach. Speak to the problem accounts. I'm most curious, where did you come up with this approach? Was this your idea? Or can you give it credit to somebody else?


Kevin Dunbrack  17:13

I don't know. For me as a sales rep, I don't want to go show you where I'm successful, I want you to come with me and help me be successful where I'm having a challenge.


JT Rimbey  17:23

I totally want to cut you off there, because I would say that is a unique trait to somebody that grew up playing sports, because you're hungry to get better. The vast majority of sales reps out there, they really just want to look good in front of their manager. So they are much more likely, at least in my experience in the conversations that I have all the time, they're much more likely to say, come and see how good I am. So they are going to take you to the easiest account that's going to welcome you with open arms.


Kevin Dunbrack  17:52

That might be a culture thing that the manager is imposing like if you feel the need to prove yourself to your manager, there's a communication breakdown. My reps, I hope, maybe know how great they are, I want to tell them, I trust them completely. And if ever I'm the smartest guy in the room with my sales reps, I have done a horrible job hiring. These people are the smart ones. They are the ones who are feet on the street. They're in it every day, of course, they have the best knowledge. So like I said, I want to go where they're having a challenge. Where are you hitting a hurdle? So yeah, I can see what you're doing? Well, one, I keep paying you commission, you're doing a good job. So I know that it's really easy to understand how well a reps doing. I read their notes. And so I'm looking for where are we getting stuck? And can I help there. And it's not like something I know, it's probably things I've seen with other reps or what it may be. But if it's nice for me as a sales leader to go and shake hands and say thank you to someone, and there's a time and place for that. But really what I want to do is where are we stuck? Where can I help you grow your business. And so take me to your challenging accounts. And then together, maybe we can assess and say you know what, we're just not going to win here. And that's okay. You spend your time on places we are. Or maybe it's like, there's just a little hurdle or a little twist that they're not catching but me who and I was just on a call for rep last week, and I stand back quietly, which is a tough thing to learn as a manager, but I stand back quietly and listen and let this play out. And there's a lot I can pick up on body language, posturing, maybe comments that the veterinarian or the tech is saying that my rep is so focused on some values, that they're just missing it, or it's an objection that they're comfortable with. But it's said slightly different that they don't realize this is the same objection we can get over day and day again, but it's just phrased different or it's something like that. So I want to go to those problem ones and see if we can take that hurdle on, understand it or maybe just be able to reframe it and approach in a different way or ask other reps. Have you seen this like here's an objection that's coming to us. And so we're going to share that knowledge. But if we just go to all the wins, one, it's a waste of the reps time, they're not getting anything out of me visiting. And two, we're not growing our business, our team. So, you know, I want reps to be able to take on any hurdle. And so if we can look at that, you know, four eyes are always better than the two. Let's hear it. Let's listen and then the back in the car break down. That's where we can really dive into. I noticed this, what did you do when this happened? How do we react to that comment? And it might be just a shuffling how we approach something, it might be a reframing, or might be just identifying. This is a standard objection, you got this, just make sure you call it out is that objection? 


JT Rimbey  20:37

I’m absolutely enamored with this mentality. If you go to the accounts, the good accounts, the reps would have won them anyways. So all that takes place, then is you're increasing the expenses to that account. Yes, right. And it's wasted. It's wasted money. I come across a lot of sales leadership that do that exact thing, because then they report to the C-suite that, oh, yeah, I went to this account, and we closed it. Are you taking credit for something that the rep had already had nailed down?


Kevin Dunbrack  21:16

As a sales leader, you never take credit. It's not your role, your role is to make your sales rep better. I don't know where I learned this. But if there's a problem, an error, it's mine. If we have to tell a client something bad news, it's me, because they don't see me or know me. So I will be the bad guy every day, I want my reps relationship that they spent years building to stay strong. So I don't if they walk in and say the boss is a jerk, here's what's going on. That's great. They can team up against me because we as a company, we maintain that relationship that's so hard to build, it's time consuming. And sure I'm the jerk, I deliver the bad news, I talk to the problem guy, you maintain your good relationship, because you gotta go back in there next week and sell them something else I don't.


JT Rimbey  22:00

That's really awesome. I'm sure the team wants to go into battle with you all the time. That's fantastic. 

Kevin Dunbrack  22:05

I have a great crew, they're fun to work with. They take out you give them one thing, and they take five steps further. They work together. They seem on emails where they're firing information back and forth. And it's so good to see that they want to work together. They know their peers are very good at what they do. And they know that they have things to offer.


JT Rimbey  22:23

Let's dive into some data conversations. And we're going to dive into the CRM world specifically, you had used a line in one of our prior conversations that just totally resonated with me “make them use it, and they won't show them value. And they will.” Just speak a little bit to your experience of CRMs, how you manage to using the CRM, and how you help them see value.


Kevin Dunbrack  22:49

they've had the opportunity to implement two CRMs, two different companies went through the process of interviewing a bunch looking at them and what's going to work with us. And the first time I learned a whole lot. With the CRM, they're great. The problem is most of them I found or I feel might be the better one, I don't know what the process of developing them. They were built for managers down. So the focus is on what is the manager getting out of this. Versus we use Map My Customers, and it feels like it's built sales rep up. That's pretty small distinction, but it's huge in how the thing actually works. The most important thing with any CRM is sales rep adoption. So the data is great. But if you don't get any data put in there or it's just garbage they're doing at the end of the week, it doesn't help anyone. So what you need to do is make sure that you get adoption from your sales reps. And the only way to do that successfully is make sure that their sales reps see value. If they don't see value, they're not going to want to do it. It's going to be an extra step. And more importantly, it's time away from doing what they should be, which is selling. So we need to make sure that they see how this will help them sell more. How does this make their day more efficient? How does it make them close more deals? How does it make them sell better? So if you can't figure that out, when you're looking at a CRM, don't do it because it's just going to be more work for everyone and not give you the information you want as a sales leader.


JT Rimbey  24:16

Kevin, if you believe you've got a great mix of tenured reps, veterans in the field and some newer younger, less tenured reps on your team as well just speak a little bit to how you leverage your CRM across that unique rep base.


Kevin Dunbrack  24:32

Yeah, when I implemented it I was out with my reps and the veteran reps your good sales reps are writing notes down somewhere could be pen and paper and a book usually the senior reps are pen and paper a book it could be in Excel it could be or who knows. A good reps of logging your calls if they're not they don't know why they're successful and they will continue to be. So with my senior reps to to make sure they bought in in a you know often technology is a challenge. It was how do we make sure it's easy enough that they can use it. And so we use Map My Customers, it looks and feels like any map you'd have on your cell phone, there's pins of where you want to go. And then you click there. And you can see all your notes and so forth. My, you know, my senior reps or veteran reps, it was, how do we make this super easy, and I can show them that with your phone, you can just dictate your notes, all of a sudden, I'm saving them time, because they come out of a clinic, they sit in their car, they open their day timer, and they find somewhere to write down their notes. And then the flip side before they go in, they flip through binders to find their notes on this clinic, we're now you know, you just open the app in because you're there, your pin is on top of their pin and have to find them, you just click and it opens up. And then you can see all your notes right there. And then to log a note, just click on take a note, and you can dictate to your phone. And I don't care about spelling or grammar, I just want the information. So just put it in there. And the next time they can see it that easy as well. So, so getting that kind of adoption from someone who's not as technology advance is great, because they can see, oh my gosh, this just saves me time. And you're not gonna lose it because it's in the cloud. Like you could lose your book, you know, you could fill your book up and put it in the trunk and then not know where that one was from last call. So understanding that your good reps are writing stuff down anyways, they're taking notes, and they're learning from theirs, they're building on each call. So if you can get them to acknowledge that, and then just show them, this is faster and easy. They're gonna log it. And then your new reps, a lot of them are already wanting something that's going to be on my phone, it's going to be an app, it's going to be easy. And it's going to look and function like everything else they're using. And so Map My Customers does, it's an app, you open it up, it's really intuitive. I'm not that technological advance. And I can use it really easy. And I can get all the information out of it. So to get the younger reps to do it, it's a matter of you show them and then they show me three different things that I didn't even know it did. The app itself is great, because it's simple enough for anyone to use. And it's familiar enough to anyone who's already a strong user. So they want to use it, they like it, because it's on their phone, like some reps don't have laptops, they have the cell phone and maybe a tablet. And they don't need a traditional laptop, they don't need a traditional workspace. They're used to being mobile, like Starbucks is the new office of the world, we just go grab a coffee, steal the internet, and away you go. So Map My Customers solved a lot of that for us. Like we talked about earlier, they have so many clinics, in so many different cities and towns, the fact that it will take you there, you can plan your day, it'll work just like the map, you plug it into your phone, you put it onto your car, and then you drive there and it will block off you're going to need this much time between calls so they can plan and schedule their lives through it. So it really works well. We've used some tools so that we integrate our email. So everything just lands in one spot versus having to go to different sections to do your work. So if everything's in one, we're saving time, it's easy. A rep knows how to pull the information, though. And everything can be housed in one spot.


JT Rimbey  28:02

the way that you are rattling off the way the reps use, Map, My Customers reminded me Joe McDonald, VP of Sales for Jasper Engines and Transmissions, he's got a line that says what gets measured gets done. You already heard that line. I like that you're combining that with the value that your CRM is bringing to the team through ease of use. So are there any specific requirements of you do this it must be logged oro are you just saying the values there, just keep using it?


Kevin Dunbrack  28:36

Yeah. And I think that goes back to the if you tell them to do it, they won't. But if you show them how it's valuable, they will. So what gets measured gets done is true. But I don't like managing people, I like leading people. So I don't want to be correcting you or telling you have to do something, I want to show you that doing something is going to be valuable. For me to police, my reps or to make sure you're like to say you have to log your calls. It's a waste of everyone's time. So let's figure out how this is valuable for all of us. And then we'll just do it. Like there's simple things that you learn a habit on, because it makes your life easier, better. Like I get up and I brush my teeth because it's nice to smile and talk to people. So every day I do this. It's not something where I'm like, Oh, someone's going to check. You know, I have to go to the dentist in six months. And then they're going to tell me I didn't do this. I want to be able to make it so that it's habit because there's value to it. So I don't say you have to you know, I occasionally will remind them haven't seen many calls. And part of it is I can't help you if I don't see what you're doing. And so how do we do that? So we have to log everything. Some of it is just explaining our business like I use a Map My Customers I use our CRM to help us gain more products. So we work as our app agency for a lot of things. And I can show potential vendors, I can show our current vendors, the exposure they're getting, I can, you know, Map My Customers lets me make pretty charts to say, look at this, your product was talked about this many times, I can show you on a map across the country, I can show you if it's better in certain areas, and why we're going to focus on rural for your product versus urban or what it may be. I mean, during COVID, when there were legitimate questions, we're all at home. So what are we doing? We're not on the road in front of clinics, you know, we actually showed that we made more calls ,more contacts with our clinics over two years, than we had previously on the road. And we learned a lot from that. So I can justify, oh, you're getting a lot of exposure. And let me show you in detail because of logs. So my reps understand, like, we want to have the best products. And so to do so I need all that information to sell McCarthy to some vendors. And then obviously, they can sell more because they have all of this information. It's not like they're walking cold to clinic, they can see years of history that we've done with them.


JT Rimbey  31:06

Kevin, let's dive into a hotly debated topic of transitioning individual contributors into leaders because the question is always, do we selflessly help them level up in their own career? Or do we continue to motivate them to be a top individual contributor? How do you manage that? How do you go about bringing somebody up? And what characteristics do you look for?


Kevin Dunbrack  31:30

Yeah, I think you're right, there's this notion of you take your top sales or up and put them into management? Which, why would you do that? You know, your top sales rep should be selling and, and your thought process should be? How do we make that sales rep more successful? How do we scale this one person? So is it adding more people to support them? Is it growing their territories and more tools to be successful, so with that top sales rep, focus on making them even better, don't move them into management, I find, I'm gonna make a big generalization, but your best sales rep probably has an ego, they're very competitive, and more than likely, they're not that diplomatic. And that's what you need to be a sales rep because you walk in every day, and you get turned down constantly. So you got to have an ego, you got to be strong. Those skills aren't the best management, you know, that sole focus is such a valued thing. And it's so hard to find, like a true hunter, as the term goes, is so driven to do that. They're so focused, they don't have the other side, they don't you know, it's very rare. I wasn't the best sales rep. And it was because I saw other things that made me grow or be motivated to do this. But if you take your best sales rep and take them off, selling you, one, your company takes a huge hit, you probably are replacing with two or three people and still not getting the bang for the buck. So how do we make that sales rep better should be your first thought. But you do have to grow your business and find new managers and new people to move into different roles. So start looking for the reps that look big picture, they want to understand what's going on. The reps who can actually say, step by step, here's what makes us successful, they can densify it and understand those things. And they can also look at how those steps mesh with the company goals, right? Your sales reps looking at how do I sell more, make more that top sales rep. They're not looking at? What's in my wake? How do we make all that in fit more efficient, so the sales rep who's conscious of those things, and they probably aren't your top sales rep, because they're they're focused on more than the individual when they're focused on growth or focus on a company. They've got a lot of questions. Those are the ones you want to start grooming. But there's a lot of challenges around moving someone to managing their peers. I've done it, it's hard. You go from sitting at the same desks and talking to now you guys have to report to me. So if you're doing that look at, is there a different territory they can manage, where maybe it's not their direct peers is there a different function in the company they can take on that will help them grow in the company understanding and then maybe move them into sales after sometimes past so they're not direct peers, but taking your top sales reps off, you're just hurting yourself, the company, odds are your sales rep won't be happy in the leave. You can see that in resumes, I received lots of really good sales reps who moved into management, and then kind of jumping companies in management. But really, they should just be in sales, they'll be happier. That's a tough conversation sometimes to have because we have this mentality in North America of what's the next step. What's the next thing? What's the next title? We'll give them a title, who cares that's free. It makes them feel better, but really what the motivation is, how do I earn more so given the way to do that, that benefits the company with their selling in their skills, play to those skills, versus trying to make them something they're not? They'll be miserable and won't help anyone.


JT Rimbey  34:56

That's a great summary. You gave some practical advice on what to look for for those that might be excelling. And I'm actually thinking of two reps that I've worked with in the past that were the most inquisitive. They were constantly going deeper with questions on internal meetings. And both of them they were probably middle to maybe middle upper individual contributors. And now they're fantastic sales leaders. And I never put two and two together until you just described it that way. That was a really good summary. So thank you. All right, Kevin. I have absolutely enjoyed our time together today. Just a huge thank you, Kevin, for joining us. It's been a pleasure learning from you.


Kevin Dunbrack  35:38

Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it. To be honest, I love Map My Customers. It's been so great to implement, it's helped our business. It just makes my life easier. So this has been a blast. It's been great talking to you. And yeah, I appreciate it.


JT Rimbey  35:51

Thank you for listening today. And thanks to our sponsor, Map My Customers. Remember that traditional CRMs were never designed with outside sales reps in mind. Too cumbersome, too complex and too time consuming along with a glaring lack of mobile friendly options. Half of our customers use Map My Customers as the CRM of record. And the other half use Map My Customers as the tip of the spear for their existing CRM. Designed specifically for outside sales reps, a mobile-first platform helping to strategically segment accounts, routing and mapping, activity logging, and much more. Remember, ease of use drives adoption. Adoption delivers data, data delivers insights. Visit MapMyCustomers.me for more info. Be sure to subscribe to the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast. Share with your friends, colleagues, and even family members. If you have additional questions or comments for Kevin or myself, send us a message. We'd love to answer your questions and hear what you think about the episode. Tune in to the next episode as we bring on Robbie Lunt from Biodesix. Thanks again for listening today.


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