It gets real and emotional in this episode where we welcome our special guests, Linda and Louise, a birth mother and adoptee duo, who bravely share their poignant journey of reunion, self-discovery, and bonding. Prepare to be moved as together, we unpack the life-altering experiences that marked Linda's past - from enduring abuse to meeting Louise's birth father, and Louise's exploration of her adoption's emotional impact that eventually led her to solace in martial arts.
The episode takes an emotional turn when Linda and Louise recount the intricate details of their reunion journey. Each revelation, from the anticipation of their first meeting to the development of their bond through frequent communication, is a testament to their resilience. The challenges they faced, such as building trust amidst processing trauma and navigating misunderstandings, will make you appreciate their strength and the commonality we find within the community. Their coping mechanisms, highlight the variety of ways one can navigate life's unexpected turns.
As we wind down, we delve into the surprising silver lining the COVID-19 pandemic brought about, enabling Linda and Louise to strengthen their bond. and leverage the power of online support groups.
Their advocacy for adoption legislation and their use of online platforms to share their story further underscores the positive impact of connections.
It gets real and emotional in this episode where we welcome our special guests, Linda and Louise, a birth mother and adoptee duo, who bravely share their poignant journey of reunion, self-discovery, and bonding. Prepare to be moved as together, we unpack the life-altering experiences that marked Linda's past - from enduring abuse to meeting Louise's birth father, and Louise's exploration of her adoption's emotional impact that eventually led her to solace in martial arts.
The episode takes an emotional turn when Linda and Louise recount the intricate details of their reunion journey. Each revelation, from the anticipation of their first meeting to the development of their bond through frequent communication, is a testament to their resilience. The challenges they faced, such as building trust amidst processing trauma and navigating misunderstandings, will make you appreciate their strength and the commonality we find within the community. Their coping mechanisms, highlight the variety of ways one can navigate life's unexpected turns.
As we wind down, we delve into the surprising silver lining the COVID-19 pandemic brought about, enabling Linda and Louise to strengthen their bond. and leverage the power of online support groups.
Their advocacy for adoption legislation and their use of online platforms to share their story further underscores the positive impact of connections.
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast. I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2:Within the first week or so we had exchanged photos and I think in the beginning she was a little guarded because you know, you hear the stories of the scams. To be honest, I was a lot guarded.
Speaker 1:Welcome to today's episode of Wandering Tree Podcast, and I have some special guests with us, kind of taking a little bit of a different spin on some of our conversations For our listeners who have been with us multiple seasons kind of dove a couple of times into the birth mother perspective. And today we're going to not only dive into the birth mother perspective but we're going to marry that with the adoptee perspective through a fantastic duo, linda and Louise. Welcome, ladies.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks for having me, lisa Am, we're so glad to be here with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're glad to have you here as well For today's conversation. It might be in our listeners best interest to kind of pare it down to two different versions of the story Linda, your story as the birth mother, and then Louise, your story as the adoptee. And then we'll bring it all back together at the end and talk about where you guys are relative to reunion and you know how that's taken place, some of the expectations, some of the challenges, and then you know, just to kind of set our listeners up for success. We'll end it off with a little bit about you guys in terms of advocacy and, as you guys know, I love to lift people up as it relates to connection to the community. Well, we've got a lot to talk about today. We should just jump right in. How about with you, linda? Why don't we start out with your story?
Speaker 3:My story. Well, my story is not dissimilar to that's a real word to other birth moms Seems like. Well, most of us are creative, let's be honest with high aces scores. I was born into a house that was pretty volatile A lot of emotional abuse, a lot of bullying. I had no grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. I had one younger brother. I had no mentors in my life, so I was a pretty solitary person and with a lot of emotional toxicity running around the house. I kept to myself.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, I was an avid reader from an early age and so stuck with my books and stuck with my animals and stuck by myself, pretty quiet, pretty chill, pretty not engaged with a lot of people because of the nonsense going on in my home. I developed rather early, getting my period at 10 and becoming the same size I am now when I was in fifth or sixth grade. So my body jumped ahead and my mind soon followed and it was the 70s. Yes, I dated a lot in high schools. I met Louise, my daughter, who I last knew adoption in 1979 in high school and we started to date after we graduated and promptly got met pregnant right in June. So, yay, overachieving there, knew that I couldn't probably stay there because my house was so abusive. Referring back to what I talked about early and I'm talking about this for the first time, so I'm bearing my soul for you, lisa and well, we love it.
Speaker 1:So take your time and take a deep breath and what we might do just to kind of kind of move forward here a little bit and give you a minute. You've mentioned a couple things, so I'm going to have you go back a little bit for clarity and I think our listeners would appreciate it. You mentioned birth mothers, high ACEs score, and I'm not sure everybody knows what that is. So do you want to give a little more context around that? Then we'll give you the next question to kind of inject just off of that little bit we've already heard from you, which I know my heart's starting to, you know, come out in empathy, and I know the listeners will too.
Speaker 3:Adverse childhood experience is what ACE stands for, and a high score is due to emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, no adult supervision. No, there's a number of factors that will create a high ACE score. Basically, it's a. It's a pretty failing of a childhood. If you listen to other podcasts and your podcasts and you listen to other birth mothers, you listen to their history and there's no wonder they didn't have love at home. I didn't have love at home. Yes, tendency is you're going to look for love if you're not a lot of self worth and you think that you should save yourself for something bigger and better. So you just want to have some love. You know, love the one you're with kind of a deal.
Speaker 1:So say one more time what does ACEs stand for? It means adverse childhood experience Adverse childhood experience Okay, well, we need to measure ourselves on some scale, I guess. Right, and those types of skills help us understand ourselves in our past. So with that I want to just connect another dot real quickly as well. So you've met Luisa's with us today and you indicated that you met and dated her birth father and married him. Did I get that correctly?
Speaker 2:for clarification Well, the order was me being born and then, a year later, you got married?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we got married after we lost her.
Speaker 1:So jumping back into your story and knowing that you are burying your soul and you're in a safe place to do so, no criticisms from me, clearly no criticisms from Luisa. I can see it right now. Where do you want to pick up out?
Speaker 3:I talked with. Jim is my husband's name, and and we, you know, we discussed we're pregnant, what are we going to do? And I said I couldn't go back to my house. I mean, I was living in my house, but it was very toxic and two years before I had had an abortion because I had been with another young man and at that time there was no discussion about what I went through. There was no therapy, there was no, it was just what you did to us and then it was shut down and we don't talk about it. So that was, the abortion happened and then it was put away and we went on with our lives. Well, nothing that had changed in my house. In fact, it became more toxic and met Jim, dot dot dot had Louise, got pregnant with the Louise, so knew I couldn't go home.
Speaker 3:So and and I had gone to Jim's house it was a house that was, there was a lot of laughter and it seemed like they loved each other. It was a big thing. I, you know, I again I said I had no family. He had a big family and it seemed like a loving, warm place and I went over there quite often and got to know them. Well, we spoke to them and they this was in Michigan, they had moved to Massachusetts and they said come to Massachusetts, stay with us and we'll figure it out. Jim drove me to Massachusetts in September when we were starting college. I dropped out and he left me there and then he went back to Michigan to go to college.
Speaker 3:I stayed with his family, his two younger sisters and his parents, who were alcoholics. That I did not realize until I was there and it was a surprise, and a really terrible surprise. The two younger sisters and I helped each other because during the day it wasn't a big deal, but the alcoholism came out at night and there was viciousness. The mother would either go after the girl, one of the girls, or myself. The girls and I kind of hung together and I was in hell because I had left the frying pan and gotten into the into the fire. Long distance was a big deal. So my way of communicating with any friends I had two friends that I communicated. It was with pen and paper and stamps, so I didn't have a lot of support. My family was out and so I was living in this hellacious place just getting through, and they had already decided what was going to happen. They.
Speaker 3:I was told when I got there that I was going to give my baby away and that's what the church wanted and that's what had been decided. I thought I was going to be safe, was not? Jim returned after his semester of school. Louise was born in the end of March. I had her. I went through Catholic social services what to do with this pregnancy? Of course the counselor, social worker, did the usual. You know the usual story that you hear from birth mothers. You know this is the only thing to do. It's the right thing to do. Other You're not worthy of this. You know another family is waiting. You're going to love your child so much you're going to give it away because that makes sense. Just the usual stuff that we usual coercion that that these agencies use was used on me and I thought she was my friend. I didn't realize that I should probably be talking about this and having some therapy and and dealing with it. But no, it was just to get the baby, get there, get me to sign the papers and be done with it.
Speaker 1:I heard a lot of themes and I just want to pick them out a little bit. So the theme of isolation, to begin with, in your home, someone that had made a previous decision relative to birth or not, that maybe it had not been worked through. The need for love, feeling safe. So now I've got, we have the theme of I need to be safe. Then I heard trust in there.
Speaker 3:Maybe if you would take a few more minutes in that uncomfortable space and talk a little bit more about the coercion piece of that, that's the funny thing is that time and I know that's due due to trauma and it's so frustrating because there's things I try to remember and I can't. I can't tell you exactly how many times I went, but I know it was a number of times. So I ended up in Massachusetts in September and I had her in March. So I don't remember if I saw them, this social worker, once a month. I don't remember. I do remember being told many times don't have the things that I need to have a baby, you don't have the skills. There are other people waiting.
Speaker 3:This is an answer to their prayers, it was. It was Catholic social services. So, yeah, it was a lot of religious stuff placed on me. I was last then and for a person who's come from a home that was like that. And then I go to a safe house where there I'm not Catholic and I'm less than, and then the social worker, who is supposed to be a professional helping me, is Saying that I'm less than and I don't have anything to offer and that it will be okay. She told me you will forget this, you'll move on with your life, it will be a nothing, don't even talk about it. So that's a Professional saying to disassociate awesome.
Speaker 1:You're like check, I got you, I heard you, did you Forget? And what was life like for the the subsequent years?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, when I gave birth to Louise, I was alone in the room. No one had prepared me for childbirth, not not the mother that in the home that I stayed with, not the social worker, not anybody. So I'm in the hospital, I have her. It was a difficult birth. I'm alone and of course, after I have her, I'm put in a room away from the you know, general Population. So I'm again being kept away. I'm, you know, you're ashamed and don't be with other people. Nurses would come in and sneak in and sneak out, and I only got to see Louise once. You know, held her and I counted your toes and her fingers and I looked at her and I held her and I sobbed and I sobbed and I Sobbed and I didn't want her to go. When she, when I carried her, I sang to her, I loved her, I, she was my world because I had nothing else going at that point. It was. I didn't want her to leave. My body didn't want her to leave, and then she was gone.
Speaker 3:And then I go back to the house and this family becomes hostile and they say I have to leave immediately and go back to my house. I'm traumatized to leave my daughter. I've been told not to say anything, not to talk to anyone. No one wants to talk to me. I get on a train, I go to Michigan, I come into my house and it was brutal. All I heard was what do you? What are people going to think about us? You know, it was all about Appearances for their sake. Never asked how I was, never anything. To this day I'll have you know no one, none of the pain the grandparents Ever asked me how I was and how I was doing over the years.
Speaker 1:Not, not a one that's sad in itself, but one of the things I heard you say is that you would sing to her while in utero. You, you know you loved her. That is a warming thing for adoptees to hear hard and warming because it does allow To connect to our feelings of loss with your feelings of loss, you knowing it wasn't that it wasn't that easy.
Speaker 3:Oh, I even took the diaper off and looked. I wanted to see everything. I wanted to make sure everything was right. Did you name her? Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:Her name was Jennifer and on her she has her father's last name and the reason I asked if you named her was because we do end up having multiple names His adoptees and, as you're, as you're holding someone and naming to you, that's probably who she always has been and to be honest, she was always my Jennifer, always from the I was pregnant, I knew I was gonna name her Jennifer.
Speaker 3:It was an important name to me for other people that were in my life, and I knew she was gonna be down.
Speaker 1:Let's, let's move forward to you married. You knew what did life look like.
Speaker 3:Life was Well after I lost her, all right. So I had no religion in my life. It didn't take, and alcohol and drugs don't take for me. For some reason I couldn't hide behind those things. I couldn't use them as crutches, so food became my crutch and I quickly gained 70 pounds. I Worked seven days a week. You know. We got married. We put our lives together. You know what went on. I kept busy.
Speaker 3:I had Family I'm putting an air quotes. Family was important to my husband. So, yes, his family was in our lives and my family was in our lives as and I tried to be the perfect daughter-in-law and I Forgot Everything that they put me through when I lived with them and the nonsense that aided me a lot through the years. I it's only just been recently since Louise found me that I've understood why that was so hard. Because I had locked that down. I Never told anyone about being pregnant and losing Louise no one. There were only two friends that knew and I locked it down good, locked it, ate it, ate, ate my way there, waited to have another child because Didn't think I was worthy to have another child. And then I did get pregnant and my body didn't want to let that baby go. I, I. That was a terrible delivery and I know it was because my body was like, no, you're not getting it let and you're not gonna lose another child. So I try to hang on to her inside of me.
Speaker 3:After I had her, I Lost all my weight and I discovered exercise and that's what saved my life it. As long as I was busy doing something physical, I could turn my brain off and not think about it because, yeah, louise was always on my mind. You know, holding another baby. I thought about my baby. I thought the baby I lost and and I know that I Wanted to mother the hell out of everything. But I knew that I there was a part of me being held back because of what I Went through and I know my two children that I did raise suffer from that. They they had a great child, that I was the hell of a mom, but emotionally I was not as fully there as that I should have been because of what I had been through. They grew up knowing that they had a sister and I went on with life but continued to Internalize the, the loss. I would look at the moon and think of her and hope she was looking at me. I'm not going to be exercising.
Speaker 2:That's how.
Speaker 3:I dealt with it, never talked to anyone and of course you know Autoimmune disease wise, all that stress, all that wear and tear, I developed ulcerative colitis and I that is an absolutely an autoimmune disease that is directly related to mind, body, emotional stress and there's no doubt that I developed that because of what I've been through well, I heard in that that you would look at the moon and think of her, as you know, under the context of is she also looking at the moon, trying to create that connection right.
Speaker 1:But I also heard that you didn't stop thinking about her and I'm sure those feelings ebbed and flowed and there were Intense times. I would suspect birthday was pretty intense for you. I would also suspect mother's day was pretty intense for you, and holidays, even with you know a fully. You know with your family, writing regardless of that. It doesn't diminish any of that, but we just know Through conversations like this and lived experiences are common traits. I think now's a good time to transition our conversation over to Louise, because you two have a really cute demeanor. I wish that the listeners could see you, but what others aren't seen and I'm going to convey, is the whole time you were talking, linda Louise was looking at you in 100% support. It was a fantastic thing to see. So, with that said, what I want to do next is Louise. Let's talk about this story from your perspective. You're the adoptee, your life, your challenges. Go for it.
Speaker 2:Okay, I was born in 1980 in Massachusetts and it was a closed adoption. I always knew I was adopted and five and a half years after my adopted parents got me they got another child, a boy. So I had a younger brother who was adopted, but not for my mom, and I would consider myself the good adoptee. I was the one that people pleased, I made sure everybody was okay and I was kind of my brother's keeper a little bit. When he got in trouble I would get in trouble because I didn't stop him from doing some shenanigans. So he was the one that acted out and was the angry adoptee and I was more the good adoptee.
Speaker 2:At the time I didn't understand what that was. I've only recently realized what that is. Family that had me, they loved me, but they didn't get me or try to get me or understand me, and that is all stuff that I'm unpacking. In the last two, three years since reunion I got heavily involved in Martial Arts, which helped me get through everything, because that was my safe place, that was my person. My teacher was just everything to me. He helped me with leadership and kind of just finding who I was and who I wanted to be and just being strong. So I really appreciate him and I think that helped me get through what a lot of adoptees go through and I kind of missed that a little bit because of him and the safe space that he gave me.
Speaker 1:Well, let's let you catch your breath, kind of collect your thoughts a little bit, and I'm going to ask a couple of different questions. The good adoptee fair number of us Toad the line. Usually that's what it means, right, Very empathetic to everybody else, very much the caretaker. But in all that you were talking about things you were going through and so what were some of your internal thoughts that you weren't expressing during that time period? Through this mentorship you were able to start working it out through your body and that. But just kind of share with us some of your internal thoughts that you weren't able to talk through and with your adopted family.
Speaker 2:I always knew I was different. I always knew that they didn't get me, so I just kind of did the things that were expected of me to make sure that I didn't get trouble or that I didn't make any waves or cause any problems. They were dealing enough with my adopted brother in terms of behavior issues and things like that, and I recently have learned that I am neurodivergent. I always thought I was a little odd, a little weird, but now everything makes a whole lot more sense. So if I had been with my birth family, I think they would have realized that more and helps me to understand it and kind of work with it a little bit, as opposed to trying to fit into the role that my adopted family had kind of put me in. There were certain expectations that I had to live up to and it wasn't like they forced me to do it, but being the good adoptee, I wanted to do that to people please. So when they had parties I would do all the help with the prep and help with the breakdown. And only recently I've kind of discovered or realized that I kind of felt like I was on display because they would have these big family events or big parties or whatever with like neighbors and everything, and it was always to kind of like show me off. You know, show my me and my brother off a little bit, and I never. I'm an introvert and I don't really like being the center of attention for anything, so it always made me very uncomfortable, but they never really saw that. It was more. They wanted to have the gatherings, they wanted to have these get togethers with like 30, 40 people and it just was very overwhelming for me and I always would like shut down for a couple days after and I never really understood that until the last couple of years. So it's been kind of like a big awakening.
Speaker 2:But all the way growing up I knew I was adopted but I had this real drive to send a letter to my birth parents. I wanted them to know I was alive and that I was okay. I didn't understand why I had that drive, but I really really knew that that was what I needed to do and I was told at 18, I could reach out to them. So I contacted the adoption agency when I was 18 and they had indicated that the records are closed but if I wanted to I could send a letter and it may or may not go to them and I also had to pay a large fee of like 300 or $400 for a letter that might go somewhere or it might not and I just at the time I would tell me if you can forward it. Why would I put the time and effort in writing a letter and send it to you and pay the money so that?
Speaker 1:just didn't sit well with me. I want to go backwards a little bit, not much, but just a little bit. And you mentioned neurodivergent. So what were the behaviors of your childhood that you now have figured out through adulthood that have lent you to that? Can you explain that concept a little bit more to some of our listeners?
Speaker 2:So for me and really my mom has been the one that helped me to realize a lot of this she noticed early on when I found her that I give a script of about 20% of who I am and I can give that no problem to anybody, no big deal. It's getting beneath that 20% that it's really hard for me to let people in. I like to be alone, I like to read, I like to. You know, I did a lot of sports, I kept busy, kept active, but I didn't have a lot of really close, deep friendships In college. I had a couple of really good roommates and college friends that I'm still friends with to this day and they kind of took me under their wing and I kind of say I was sheltered, like self-imposed shelter. I kind of created a shell around myself and like everything in the outside world was happening but it wasn't happening to me. I was there and I participated but it wasn't like it didn't come in.
Speaker 2:Of course we all took abnormal psych in college so everyone was diagnosing each other. So I believe OCD and some other anal retentive properties were kind of discussed and thrown about. They did help to socialize me a little bit more and make me more open to letting people in. I think I never really felt comfortable sharing with my adoptive family very much about who I was, what my emotions were, anything like that. Sometimes I would, but often I didn't. And I did run into the issues where sometimes I would tell my adoptive mom something and then she would tell everybody else and so like, where's the trust in that? So that made me pull back a little bit more and the college friends helped to open me up and kind of get me to do more social things.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's really a good rundown of that and let you pick back up the letter. Okay, so the letter After college.
Speaker 2:Massachusetts had passed a law and I read in the newspaper my adoptive mom had read in the newspaper and sent it to me that they were going to make a registry so I could register to be connected with my birth family. But I was like, well, let me wait until it's actually on the books for a little bit. Make sure there's some people, because if I go in now I'm going to be the only one on there. Let me see how this goes. Well, it turns out. A couple years later the funding ran out or something happened with it and that whole registry went away. So that was kind of disappointing and I thought, well, that shop's gone. Then I started to hear about DNA and I'm like, hmm, I don't really want my genetic material out there, but if that's the only way I can find them, maybe I'm going to have to do. It Got married when I was 30, had my son at 33.
Speaker 2:And that was the first person I met who looked like me. He looked like a mini me, but slightly tanner it was. It was a very interesting thing for me because I never really thought about that. I never. Well, with my neurodivergence I tend not to look at people's faces. I kind of have a little face blindness so I never really focused on that, but when I saw him, all I could see was that looks like me. That's so weird and that really opened up more emotions for me and more feelings.
Speaker 2:Having that and bonding with him, my husband and my father-in-law they ended up like 2017, they got some. My father-in-law bought us like National Geographic DNA kits to see like our heritage. He thought I'd be able to connect with my birth family too that way. But he didn't understand that. That wasn't the one that did that. It just gave you like your percentage of your this French and this German. After we took it, my husband said, okay, you got your results. Did you get connected with anybody? I said, well, that's not the right test. And he said, well, we should get the right test. How about you just get that? So that was given to me for Christmas 2017.
Speaker 2:And around February of 2018, I said you know what I'm going to do it? And they had like some sale for ancestry. It was like half off or something like that. So I bought the kit. I sat on it for a couple of weeks. I wasn't ready to take it because I still was hesitant to let my DNA be out there with like commercial whatever. So I finally took it.
Speaker 2:I was told that the results were going to take like six to eight weeks. I think I got them in four. So I got the results in May and I was immediately matched with three potential first cousins. So I then got the little non-identified paperwork from my file that my adoptive family had. That was like the only documentation I had, and then you know just a general synopsis of description and you know ethnic background and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:So I kind of typed some of that into the Ancestry chat and I messaged all three of the first cousins and one I got no response from. The other one said hey, I'm going to check with my dad. I don't know who you are or how you could be connected to the family. The third one took a couple days and then I got a message back and she it was a first cousin who knew my birth dad was related to him and she gave me my birth mom's email address and said you found them and this is their contact info. And I then spent hours just like, okay, I got to write a letter.
Speaker 1:I got to write a good letter In my head.
Speaker 2:I kind of been writing the letter for years but not actually written it down. So I sat and I think I stayed up late one night after my son went to bed and I just typed it and I sent it. I emailed it to her and she likes to refer to it as my resume letter. So again, giving kind of the 20%, the like you know, above the ground overview of my life, and it really made it seem like I had everything put together and everything was all good and in my head everything was really good, like I was fine, everything was good. Turns out it wasn't, but that I didn't unpack that for a year or two after.
Speaker 2:We then started exchanging emails and like we would email like every day and we were sending messages back and forth. And then I think so that was in May and in June we had our first phone call and then we would talk to each other once a week. We had a set schedule of like Thursday, from like seven to eight or eight to nine we would talk, and that was the opportunity for me to hear my mom and my dad's voice and for them to hear mine. And I remember you told me later that I sounded just like one of my aunts and it weirded you out. You're like Whoa, that's so weird, your voice is identical, that's crazy.
Speaker 3:It was crazy.
Speaker 1:And that's like your first instance of genetic mirroring and an outside of the birth of your son. So to hear that, you're like, oh well gosh, I wonder if that's good or bad. And but at the same time, you're like I sound like someone in my family. Yeah, or I look like someone in my family, and it's such a like out of body. And I don't know how many times I've shared this, so forgive me for all those that have shared it a few times. I've had two instances of oh boy. One was a biological sister.
Speaker 1:When we were on a zoom call, my son came around the corner, looked at her, looked at me, and was freaked out because he'd never seen anyone. What's the story? Yeah, he'd never seen anyone that looked like me, Right? I mean, he just hadn't, and so it was surreal. The second one was so I'm pretty connected to my maternal first cousins, two of them great women, fantastic humans. I don't know what we were doing. We were doing Snapchat and we were using one of the lenses and the picture. You know where it does like two people together and the picture came back and where it's just really showed your face and our faces were almost the same. Another very surreal moment, Like you can look at people and say, oh yeah, he's got Uncle Joe's eyebrows Right. But to experience that as an adult is just such a surreal feeling. You know it really is and it's hard to explain.
Speaker 2:It's really bizarre and like within the first week or so we had exchanged photos and I think in the beginning she was a little guarded because you know, you hear the stories of the scams.
Speaker 3:I was a lot guarded. I was a lot guarded, but as soon as she sent the pictures I was like nope, that's my daughter.
Speaker 1:There she is, she looks like her siblings.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, we all got the same eyebrows. They're like basically identical, and our faces are very, very similar and our hair color is very, very close and the family resemblance is very, very noticeable and that was a little weird for me. I was like holy honey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the other part too. You look like me, no, no, no, you look like me. Right, I was here first Just check the oh, you can't check that birth certificate.
Speaker 3:But let me tell you.
Speaker 1:I was here first. Oh, that's awesome, all right. Well, you guys are in reunion. I'm going to let you guys figure out who talks next and what you want to share, but let's just kind of talk about, maybe, at minimum, how long, and some of the, some of the wins and maybe some of the not so many wins or, you know, oh gosh, expectations.
Speaker 3:And that's, that's the weird thing about both of us. Neither one of us went into reunion with any kind of expectation. For me, she was always a baby. I could not let her grow up in my mind because I'm not there, so how could she possibly be growing up? So she was a baby until she. We contacted each other. So I had zero. I was just. She could walk around, was like cool, I didn't have to change your diapers, so I was just in awe of this wonderful woman. Now in my life that was my daughter, so I was just a God. I was just just amazed.
Speaker 2:So we had our first phone call in June of 2018. And then, in July of 2018, we met in person. I go to when I was looking at colleges, so many schools in Michigan were sending me those you know those big packets like come to our school. And I was what in the hell am I going to go to Michigan? What's in Michigan? And then work stuff happened. Like my husband, he was going to get a transfer and Detroit was one of the options and we're like we can buy a really nice house, but I don't know what kind of job we're going to get. That's probably not going to work for me, so no. And then my current job like they kept trying to send me to train people and do work in different places in Michigan and I kept resisting. But then, once I found her, I was like, okay, I'll go. So I went and I just extended my trip a little bit so it captured the weekend so I was able to visit with them.
Speaker 3:And yes, it was a proud mother moment because she got the company to pay for her reunion trip. Yeah, that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1:Sometimes business travel has a slight benefit. Yes, yeah, no shame in that at all, Once you've been there for a week. If I have to stay another day, so be it, or two. I'm not asking you yeah, I'm not asking you, to pay for all that stuff. I'm already there that there's a you know a fine line between on that. But that is one of the small perks of business travel for sure. Well, let's cut on that weekend, First time meeting. You're painting a very rosy picture. We're way up here at a hundred thousand feet. Was it rainbows and unicorns? Was it awkward? Like really weird? You said, let's get to the root.
Speaker 2:I thought I'd be clever and bring a it's a girl balloon to her, because I figured she didn't have it. You know a baby shower. So I thought I'd be funny. I'd be like, yeah, it's a girl, you know, celebrating that your girl's here. So I got a balloon and I brought it All your cards.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I brought some car, I brought like a Mother's Day card and it was adorable.
Speaker 3:She had a birthday. Because it was my birthday, she had a birthday card for that year and then she had another car to make up for all the cards she missed because we weren't together. So I was so touched.
Speaker 2:But she just came and gave me the biggest hug.
Speaker 3:Well, explain to. So your dream was to knock on my door. Well, the balloon. That was her dream. Well, I heard the cars coming down the road, the dogs are going off. I'm out the door. I pull her out of the car, throw my arms around. Yeah, I blew her surprise completely.
Speaker 2:And it was the longest hug I think I've ever had in my life. I'm not normally a hugger, I don't usually like people to touch me, but that I was like, okay, this is okay, I can do this. But then when we went in and you sat and you kept staring at my face you couldn't look away and it was just. I could tell that you were like weirded out by it, but also like you just wanted to absorb it and it was a little weird for me because I don't like people looking at me. So but then you held my hand and you kind of shared some stuff and I could see the pain a little bit and I had no concept. I hadn't done any research on adoption, didn't understand the birth mother's perspective, didn't know what she'd gone through, just went in totally blind, had no fantasy of who they were going to be or anything like that.
Speaker 2:And we kind of got into know each other through email and texting and phone calls and we just sat and you brought me into the back room and you showed me like my little baby bracelet and the little picture and I could see the like, the pain and but the love and that you wanted to know me, but it was still really painful and you explained it to me later that at some point me there was the most joyous and also the most devastating, because it was like I was lifting her up but also stabbing her in the chest. Just because of that that you know both feelings. So that was it really made my heart like reach out to you and I just I wanted to be there for you and I wanted to know you because I thought you were pretty cool. At one point I told her, even if you weren't my mom, I would want to be your friend. I kind of like you and we've kind of been doing that.
Speaker 1:That's so cool, that's really cool. So how does that make you feel into hearing that now, at this, on this day?
Speaker 3:It's that that my daughter is in my life and that she is my friend is. You know, growing up, I always wanted a sister, I always wanted a close friend, and I never had one and I gave birth to my friend.
Speaker 1:So I think that's actually a really important distinction from the concept of your meeting for the second time she's an adult and so to to try to create a different mother-daughter bond which we might label as traditional. It's difficult at this age right, it's difficult as two adults who have traversed life post that event Doesn't mean the journey stopped, by no means am I indicating that but have traversed life and lived experience to create that very mother, mothering, daughtering bond. And so I wonder if you guys subscribe to this theory a little bit, which is, yeah, we're going to be friends because at minimum, we can be really good friends.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we met as adults so we and we communicated a lot explaining who we are and we really opened up to each other. And you don't really trust people very much to open up, so for you to let me in and for me to let you in, those were big deals and it just kind of happened organically. We didn't like make it happen, it just happened and we just kind of bonded.
Speaker 3:It was it was really nice to see and there is something you know different personalities get along better with other personalities and fortunately, our personalities just meld beautifully together and we are great friends.
Speaker 2:And we learned that my neurodivergence likes to communicate by text or email initially and does not enjoy phone or in person very much. So we communicated the right way for me so I felt comfortable and then I opened up to you and I think that made you feel comfortable with opening up to me. I think it was a lot of give and take and just opening space for the other to like be able to walk through and to explain and to share.
Speaker 3:And because I wanted to know everything about Louise. It was the first time in her life she really had to think about who she was, why she was, and she would, I and she'd have to think about herself, and then she'd have this realization while she was telling me. So it was like it was very therapeutic. It was crazy. She learned about herself by introducing her self to me. It was marvelous.
Speaker 2:I had done zero self reflection and had not really looked into my I just, you know, keep plugging away, keep going forward. So when she wanted to really understand and know I had to then go back and go okay, why do I do that? How, like I had to be able to understand it to be able to explain it to her. And then that helped me understand myself a lot more, which is when I realized that I'm neurodivergent and we have other things too.
Speaker 1:But yes, I can relate to the reflection component of it and then the answering of so many questions. Putting all of the puzzle pieces together, that is, I think, a very common thing. That happens for adoptees who have met or are in reunion.
Speaker 2:Now I do want to say we've kind of painted a lovely reunion and everything's going great. But I will say that the first year or two was rough.
Speaker 1:Well, let's get to those rough parts, because that's reality too. Right, that is really reality. We also know there are simple, cold heart truths to this that are not rosy, not perfect. So why don't you guys share a little bit of those experiences so that our listeners can go okay, it's okay if I experience that or if I feel that way.
Speaker 2:Well, in the beginning, when we were communicating, there were times where she would go dark. It would be silence. I would send messages and I wouldn't get anything back for a couple days and I was like, did I offend her? Did I upset her? What did I do wrong? And then she would come back when she was ready. But it was because she was processing the trauma and the pain and all that. She needed time to kind of get it together to be able to come back. And she didn't have my trust. She didn't trust me fully yet. She wanted to, but it wasn't that. She wanted to show it and build it. So I think that that was hard and I didn't understand what was going on, because I really didn't understand the birth mother perspective at all. But, as you've opened up and shared with me, that just made me want to know more and to be supportive of you and other birth moms, because you guys got a broad deal too.
Speaker 3:When she did come into my life, I was ecstatic. But I crashed hard and I was like I don't know, if it hadn't been for cycling I called it ride and cry I'd get on a bike and ride my ass off and just sob, just sob. And there were times I couldn't respond to her because I was overwhelmed, and so we got to a code where I could tell her I'm in a dark place, I'm going to be gone for a while, I'll be back. But I got a process. I got to think I was so sad. I was so sad because it had, all you know, 38 years locked away and here it was, plunked back in the middle of my face and I had to deal with all the things I never even thought about dealing with.
Speaker 2:Well, you were afraid of even telling your friends and like I was visiting you and I was like, do you want me to hide Because, like I look like my siblings? If someone walks up to us on the street, they would go. That's not so, and so who is that? Why do they look identical? What's going on?
Speaker 1:Did you really seriously just say you asked if you needed to hide.
Speaker 2:I said I would wear a bag and I told her in a way, Because I knew like I could feel like the tension and like the nervousness, and I was, like it's no big deal to me, I don't care, I'll throw a bag in my head. Whatever you need to do, however, we need to make this work.
Speaker 3:And I was like absolutely not, I am proud that you are my daughter. I'm ashamed and mortified that I went through what I did and I lost you, but I'm very proud that she's my daughter and no, we're not hiding you. And, yes, it was very difficult telling my friends, oh, my God, it was difficult, it was, it was. It was the worst, absolutely worst. And, yes, my colitis absolutely flared. It was bad, it was a summer of hell and I wanted to know about her. So she would send things to me, like you know, pictures and things, and not realizing that I was grieving for everything I lost.
Speaker 2:She would. I sent a form of a Dapti bingo to her, basically, but the birth mother version. So I was like checking off all the wrong things because I was doing what I thought was the right thing to do and the right thing to say. Because of what society? Apparently, we all read the pamphlet as adoptees. I don't remember reading it, but we all regurgitate the same crap, the same rainbow and unicorn. So I was doing what I thought was the right thing and when I stopped doing that, I stopped hurting her so much and I stopped causing more problems and we were able to move forward. So that was big. For when I realized that, I was like, ooh, I need to stop that.
Speaker 3:And I was like a favorite moment. A favorite moment, lisa Ann, was when she sent me the picture with just texting she sends me the picture of her actual adoption, with she's sitting with the judge when they sign the paper. She sends this to me. I threw my phone across the room, I didn't say anything to her, I just, you know, I knew I had to get my negative out, but I never said, I never told her.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that. That was a few years ago, yeah.
Speaker 3:But I was like are you freaking, kidding me.
Speaker 2:So my idea and things like that. So I had taken a snap of like five or six photos that they had sent me and I sent I and I didn't really think about it or pay attention. I was just like, oh, these were sent to me. They said that they might want, you know, she might want to see them. I'll take a picture and send it to her, not thinking like, oh, that was, yeah, that could be hurtful.
Speaker 1:I will give you some grace on that, because I don't know if I had had those pictures, so I didn't have those pictures. I don't have very many pictures of me until I'm like six months old and so, but if I had had those pictures, so I was a year or older, I was, I was a father.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was right at this. I was right at about the six month mark. I don't know if I would have had at that time, any presence of mind. That's why I'm giving you grace to know not to send that. Or to send that I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have thought of it just like, yeah, I wouldn't have thought of it any differently because there hadn't been enough connection. And again, depending on where you are in your journey, it could be all the way back to you know, where we have fear of upsetting someone or we feel obligated to be happy, go lucky and grateful. I'm so thankful. Thank you for giving me a way. Thank you for relinquishing me Right. Thank you, you gave me a better life, not a different life, but a better life, even though we don't know if it's better or different. We don't know yet. And so, yeah, I'm going to give you just a little bit of grace. Go ahead, take it.
Speaker 2:I fully admit that I made mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes, I mean everybody does. You're kind of figuring out. There's no, there's no rulebook or or directions and everybody's different and I think everybody needs to take figure out how they communicate and how they can talk and open up to other people.
Speaker 3:And the times that she did do those things again, I never told her how it hurt me. It didn't matter. I mean, I was hurting so much. Anyway, I mean, continue to stab me. I still want to know you, I still want to love you, I still want to be there for you. So it didn't matter what she sent me. I was going to take it because it was worth it, because I wanted to be with her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's the rewards and benefits right. Pain, reward and benefit. Yeah, and that pendulum swings on both sides of this conversation. It swings just as heavily for birth mothers as it does adoptees and everybody in between. So well, this has been a fantastic journey of your guys's reunion and stories individually and bringing it together. It's hard, it's hard to determine what are the right things to do and the wrong things to do, which is why we consistently say every time, as a podcasting entity, we're just talking about lived experience. I mean, you mentioned it, there is no book, there is no charter. You can listen to all of the great, fantastic podcasters out there. You're going to hear some common themes, some common stories, and then you might find something that is different. You're like, oh wow, I didn't think of that, I never thought about sending the picture of the judge day the day. Oh, that's all I can say to that right. So well, how do you guys go forward? How are you guys going to continue to go forward?
Speaker 2:We are spending a lot of time in learning about adoption and how we can support others and how we can make needed changes, because the common narrative is wrong and it's not adoptees lived experience. It's what society and the organizations and the religious groups have told us. That's what it is, and I think COVID was actually a blessing in disguise because it forced us to kind of be together. We were actually on our way to an in-person support group in DC when DC shut down for COVID in 2020. And Michigan wasn't really safe for her to go back to, so she actually stayed with me for a couple months and we really got to know each other. We cooked in the kitchen, we did things together and then we found some of these online support groups. We went to everything we could, just to learn and to be there, and I just listened and didn't say anything and just tried to absorb as much as I could, and I recommend that to anybody Like I went into Adopti Twitter and I just watched and read everything.
Speaker 2:I didn't get involved because I didn't have the knowledge base to be involved. Anything I would have said could have been another Adopti bingo type garbage that I had done to her. So I just sat back and I watched and I learned and I found the people that spoke to me and wrote things that I was feeling or thinking but couldn't give word to, and there's so many of us out there that go through similar things. There's common things in there, there's feelings and connections and all that. And I think, just finding the support groups getting out there and then listening to other people not just like adoptees, I also listen to birth parents and it really helps me understand the picture better and to be compassionate and empathetic to everybody involved in it. You know, yep, cause there's Trump, there's Hertz from on. You know both sides, yeah.
Speaker 3:COVID was great for us in that we spent time learning about adoption land and I learned about true adoption. True, you know their lived experiences and I heard their stories and I sat in support groups with them and I told them my story so they could understand what a birth mother was like, cause you know you're sitting in a group talking to someone who mother has denied them again knowing her, and my heart bleed. So I try to explain to the adoptee why their mom may be doing it and the work that she needs to do to come to the table to be supportive for the child she lost. So we learned a lot, we listened a lot. We joined some organizations. I came out of the fog, she came out of the fog. We have spent time working on OBC bills, writing letters, making phone calls. I my one.
Speaker 3:A very another proud moment for me is, through the Catholic mothers for truth and transparency, with getting the OBCs bills passed through Vermont and Connecticut. They set out a call for a document to be sent to the Vatican and my essay is in the Vatican right now to through the Catholic mothers for truth and transparency and I'm proud that my words of my, my experience, are in the Vatican for people to, to hear and see, and we want to continue being there for others, learning more and and helping with with legislation when we can. I know I'm I've just got involved. I know Michigan has some a bill coming up and I I'm going to be pounding those representatives and senators, driving them crazy.
Speaker 3:You've mentioned groups and I'm about community, and so we met at an event the friendships that we've made through Concern United Birth Parents and through National Association of Adopted People and Parents, and adoption network is amazing.
Speaker 3:Shout out to Candace Cahill, marcy Keith Lee, jennifer Falsing. I mean, these are wonderful, wonderful people and you're instantly connected because you understand each other. But with these people that I've met through these support groups is is just amazing, and that we can lift all of ourselves up with each other and for each other is a beautiful, beautiful thing, and I'm I'm proud to be part of this community and I can honestly say several years ago I would never have said that about adoption, but I'm very proud to be with adoptees and birth moms.
Speaker 2:And and and I just appreciate the. I've had the opportunity to connect with the international community so I'm in contact with adoptees from the UK and Germany and Australia and Canada and there's so much commonality Like, yes, we are the worst, we're very profit driven, but they're also going through a lot of the same things that we are. And some of them are getting apologies and listening to this Scottish apology and the Welsh apology and Australian apology, I didn't know that that would mean something and it wasn't perfect. Like they missed a lot and you know, not very much given to the adoptees, but, man, that that was important. And like I can't imagine what it would be like if we got that in the US when the oh my God like mind blown that, but it wouldn't be so meaningful for so many adoptees.
Speaker 1:So well, I think we're ready to close out for today. I want to thank you both for coming on the show and being so open and honest about your experience and sharing that with this group of listeners. We appreciate it. I appreciate the connections we're making in the friendship we're building, and so thank you very much for being here today. Thank you, thank you for listening to today's episode. Make sure to rate, review and share. Want to join the conversation? Contact us at wanderingtreeadocdcom.