Ever wonder how it feels to grow up feeling chosen, only to discover that your life's narrative was built on a web of half-truths? Get ready for an adoptee rollercoaster as we sit down with Jack Rocco MD, author of "Recycled." Jack takes us through his adoption journey from his loving upbringing in a tight-knit Italian family to his path of self-discovery sparked by an eye-opening blind date and a transformative book.
As our conversation unfolds, Jack candidly explores the emotional labyrinth of adoption. He shares the challenges he faced reconciling the love of his adoptive family with the longing to unearth his biological roots, the impact of discovering family secrets, and his struggle to make peace with his identity. His story is further enriched by his examination of free will and the importance of truth. We also discuss the role of local resources in helping individuals navigate situations like his, and the healing power of community.
Delving deeper, we switch gears to discuss a often overlooked perspective - that of male adoptees. Jack provides valuable insights into his own struggle with understanding his identity as an African American male in a society laden with traditional masculine roles. He shares how learning about the civil rights movement brought him closer to his roots, and how writing his book helped him reconcile his upbringing with his true self. Join us in this deeply moving conversation that not only shares the journey of an adoptee but also shines a light on the universal quest for identity. This is an episode that will make you rethink your understanding of adoption, identity, and the true meaning of family.
When it comes to the amplification of male adoptee voices, it is crucial to recognize the unique experiences and perspectives they bring to the table. Each male adoptees has a valuable role to play in helping to shape the narrative around adoption by providing insights into their own personal journeys. This six-episode series is taking us on a spectacular journey of meaningful conversations, were male adoptees have been empowered to share their stories, break down stereotypes, and contribute to a greater understanding of the adoption experience as a whole.
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Recycled-Reluctant-Search-Through-Nurture/dp/1990688136
IG: https://www.instagram.com/recycledchild/
Ever wonder how it feels to grow up feeling chosen, only to discover that your life's narrative was built on a web of half-truths? Get ready for an adoptee rollercoaster as we sit down with Jack Rocco MD, author of "Recycled." Jack takes us through his adoption journey from his loving upbringing in a tight-knit Italian family to his path of self-discovery sparked by an eye-opening blind date and a transformative book.
As our conversation unfolds, Jack candidly explores the emotional labyrinth of adoption. He shares the challenges he faced reconciling the love of his adoptive family with the longing to unearth his biological roots, the impact of discovering family secrets, and his struggle to make peace with his identity. His story is further enriched by his examination of free will and the importance of truth. We also discuss the role of local resources in helping individuals navigate situations like his, and the healing power of community.
Delving deeper, we switch gears to discuss a often overlooked perspective - that of male adoptees. Jack provides valuable insights into his own struggle with understanding his identity as an African American male in a society laden with traditional masculine roles. He shares how learning about the civil rights movement brought him closer to his roots, and how writing his book helped him reconcile his upbringing with his true self. Join us in this deeply moving conversation that not only shares the journey of an adoptee but also shines a light on the universal quest for identity. This is an episode that will make you rethink your understanding of adoption, identity, and the true meaning of family.
When it comes to the amplification of male adoptee voices, it is crucial to recognize the unique experiences and perspectives they bring to the table. Each male adoptees has a valuable role to play in helping to shape the narrative around adoption by providing insights into their own personal journeys. This six-episode series is taking us on a spectacular journey of meaningful conversations, were male adoptees have been empowered to share their stories, break down stereotypes, and contribute to a greater understanding of the adoption experience as a whole.
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Recycled-Reluctant-Search-Through-Nurture/dp/1990688136
IG: https://www.instagram.com/recycledchild/
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast. I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's huge. I think it's. You know, my first contact was with Michael Rocco. He goes. Michael Rocco is his name in adoption community and it just coincidental that his birth last name was my adopted last name.
Speaker 1:Welcome everybody to today's episode. With me. I have adoptee Jack Rocco MD, and he's here to talk a little bit about his adoption story, some of the great things that have come of that experience and his take and how he tackles life in general, and so with that I'm going to hand it over to Jack Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I appreciate your interest and opportunity to share with you today. I guess I am one of the lucky ones. As far as you know, early on in my life I felt I lived a very blessed life. I think I had a great family and the adoption line story was presented to me, like it was to many people, as you know, this is a blessing. You were chosen. You know many. You know I remember my mother sitting you on the bed and saying you know, some people just get babies because they have babies. But you know we chose you, we wanted you and you know I mean I felt that and I didn't really have any. You know major issues.
Speaker 2:I think growing up we were a very close knit Italian family. My grandfather immigrated from Italy, so my father was first generation, I was second and you know that included basically four families. You know each of my grandparents had four kids and each of the four kids all moved within a two block radius of each other. And you know every holiday, every birthday, christmas, you know the family was all together with all the kids and we were constantly playing in my grandparents backyard and having dinners and birthdays. So it was great. I mean, I really have, you know, not any unusual upbringing stories related to, you know, related to adoption. I felt like I fit in well with the family, you know, and never, never, questioned it.
Speaker 2:I think my first you know what I call my first chink in the armor, if you will happened when I was in residency. You know I did well in school. I went to, you know, undergrad was the first, first of my family, to go to college and then, you know, accepted into medical school and it was in residency. I was probably 30 years old. I had a blind date and on this date we were having a normal conversation and I asked her something about you know, what? About your parents? And she said well, that's interesting because I was adopted. You know, that clearly struck a chord with me and, you know, I was still trying to be cute about it and, you know, asked her the question that everyone always asked me is you know, did you ever want to find your real parents?
Speaker 2:And I was expecting her to say, no, she had a good family and everything was great like it was for me. That was, that was my canned response, and then she said, well, actually it's interesting because the story that my parents were told wasn't true, you know, and she basically ended up telling me my exact same story about how her, you know. She was told that her parents were two young college kids who got pregnant and couldn't afford to have a baby, so they decided to give it away to a good family so she could be raised properly, which was, word for word, what I had been told.
Speaker 1:I think I want to go back just a couple of steps too. So that was a chink in the armor, and what are the odds? I mean, in all honesty, what do you suppose the odds are? That you would meet someone, go out with them, have a random conversation and they'd go. Yeah, I'm adopted too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it was. You know I miss that. I was 30 years old. I'd like to consider myself at that point in time fairly. I don't know about worldly, but you know I'd moved away from home, you know, to Pittsburgh and then Philadelphia, and I felt I was, you know, I had it all together, but I never had really met anyone that I personally had a conversation with it about. You know, my sister and I really never talked about it. You know we were just it was accepted Actually had an older uncle who was adopted as well.
Speaker 2:You know, and you know so it was something that was just, you know, almost normal in our family. And you know, I mean I've since been told by others that, you know, that Italian mindset of the family and together and bringing in others, you know, wasn't uncommon, you know, in that, in that culture, you know so. Then, at this date, when she told me that, you know, because then she went on to tell me that the story wasn't true, that her mother had issues with substance abuse and streets and was a much, you know, sadder story than what she had been told, so suddenly, like I said, my, my chink in the armor was wow. And then she said something like they used to tell everyone the same thing and I'm like, yeah, that was my story too. And she's like, see, it wasn't true. And you know it felt like slaps across my face, like how could I have been so stupid not to even question it, because I really never did so.
Speaker 2:Then we continued to talk and she said you need to read this book. It's called Journey of the Adopted Self with, you know, by Betty Jean Lyfton. So literally after the date, after dinner, we walked down the street to Barnes and Nobles and bought a copy of that book. You know it's a, it's a whole chapter in my book when I write about that, because it was very shattering for me. You know that, even though my story was so simplistic and I had this, this idyllic vision of it and, you know, complete acceptance of it, it was just me. That was good. I was just so interested in digging into this book, which is what I did the whole next day, like that evening, and you know I was in coffee shops and parks and sitting along train tracks and just could not get my nose out of that book.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm gonna stop us right there for just a second because that was a lot, and we're gonna unpack a few items from there too for the listeners. I think you were kind of operating in a shock state, a little bit right, kind of just be out with someone and then learn all this stuff to include one of the token books in our community. But one of the items that you mentioned as you were talking is that you have a book. Can you just go ahead and drop a little bit about? You are an author.
Speaker 2:Correct. Yeah, I recently published on Father's Day, I released my book which is called Recycled, with the subtitle A Reluctant Search for True Self Through Nurture, nature and Free Will. You know, I mean, the book is presented as I lived it, for the best of my ability, so much so that when I'm talking about my younger years, trying to remember it with my younger memory and my younger impression, yeah, so I'd say that the book pretty much just journals how it occurred to me, including this clueless, idyllic vision of it. And then chapter four is. That's my first chink in the armor, and it's called Blind Sided. I structure the book in three parts, one being nurture, how I was raised, all the beliefs I had, and then the second is nature when I found my birth mother, my daughter was born, I got married, I started raising a family, all those life issues. I find information about my birth father, although he had passed by then. Once I find all these, when I discover my nurture and my nature, then I'm left with now, what do I do Now that I have all this information? What do I do with it? And that's where the free will part comes into play.
Speaker 2:I make a statement that I think it's true that I think the biggest sin is ignorance, and not so much that you're not educated, but that you know, but you choose to ignore it. And I just had this overwhelming feeling that I can't just ignore these things and go on with the status quo. I need to tell my parents, I need to get this out, I need to just accept it and move on. And all the lies and deceptions kind of get in my way along this journey to buy and own my story completely. And that blind date thing was what I would consider my first step out of the fog.
Speaker 2:If you will did what I think probably many people do is that I buried it. I went back into the fog. I had a brief attempt to register on an adoption discovery site on AOL when it was very early on. Then I had an experience with that. That just threw me even further and I'm like forget this, I don't have time for this, I'm busy with work, I don't need all this emotional nonsense here. So then I just buried it until later.
Speaker 1:We're going to go back just a little bit because I think that as you were talking, I picked up on a couple of things that are a little bit intriguing for me. One is after you had this blind date, you were blindsided. You went, you read the book, you were consumed it. It started to consume you. You went back to your parents and in our previous portion of this conversation you had a fairly you know mild and wonderful life with them. You were nurtured fairly well, I would say. How did that conversation go with your family?
Speaker 2:Well, actually at that point I did not have a conversation with my family. That didn't take place for probably another 20 years. Wow, you know. So, yeah, that was. You know, these were things that I carried with me. You know, I didn't tell anyone about that. I told no one about that, I just held that in. But meanwhile the wheels had been greased, if you will, and we're starting to turn and I described that, as you know, like my story. I didn't really change my story per se, other than I put a big asterisk next to it that my parents were told that I was German and Irish. You know, as young nurses, you know, nuns lie and they keep secrets. So they just wanted everything to sound rosy, so I just went along with it, but it slowly haunted in the background.
Speaker 1:Well, and you also mentioned then you know how the lies were starting to get in the way, and so I'm marrying that with you were haunted in the background, and now you've connected for almost 20 years. From that that entry point, how did you manage through kind of just the overall every day Was it daily for you? Was it weekly? Was it monthly? Processing, reprocessing, trying to figure out what to do next?
Speaker 2:I would say it not daily, not weekly, perhaps monthly, but selective. You know that someone were to say, oh, you know we were thinking about adoption, then I would be more likely and open to say I was adopted. I really I buried it deep. I mean, I can, I can compartmentalize, you know, and I can, I can go into doctor mode or daddy mode or whatever and completely ignore my own thoughts or my own, just just soldier on, so to speak. You know it really didn't. You know, during the between, you know I said between that date and between when I got married and when my wife was pregnant, I kind of not much had changed. You know there was an asterisk next to my story and I just bought it. But I was like I was still under the belief that, you know, the courts wouldn't let me look anyways, so why bother? And some of it was my mother probably doesn't want to see me anyways, why do I want to bother her? She probably has a family. There were thoughts like that going on. I don't know that it really affected me so much. And then you know I got married, yeah, married in 04.
Speaker 2:My wife, my daughter, was born in 05. She started with the don't you want to find your real mother. And I was like no. And she's like what about your birth hit? You're about your medical history, don't you want to know your medical history? I'm like no, I'm healthy. So what about the kids? Either the child, don't you think the baby should know their history? I'm like no, they're gonna know me. And she kind of persisted to the point where I was like a little snippet and I was like no, I don't, I don't want to know. And then it continued and eventually she said, well, if I get the paperwork and fill it out, will you sign it? So I was like sure, that's fine, I'm like, but you're never gonna find her. They're never gonna. You know, it's never gonna work. So then my daughter was born. It was my daughter was probably two years old when I finally got a call from the state saying that they had found my, my request, my paperwork, and that they had some leads and they're gonna let me know. And Literally three days later they called back and said here's your mother's name, here's her phone number, her address or email. She sounds normal, she's looking forward to hearing from you. And that was that. You know, I mean it wasn't you know. I mean I think I was, you know, here in the stories.
Speaker 2:I was lucky she was open and you know it was welcoming. There was no secondary rejection at that point and you know I was very on the surface I think, very just cool with it. I'm like, oh, but meanwhile the wheels spinning in the background and you know I'm like, yeah, this would be great. Yeah, it was cool, we had a great conversation. It was wonderful. Yeah, she's, you know. I mean we ended up meeting and and had regular for meetings and she met the kids and Would visit to our house and we would see her at Thanksgiving. I mean it. You know, it was fine up until Mother's Day of that year that we first met. When she said something like, hey, happy Mother's Day from your other mother, and then I went down the drain of major league. I couldn't back up fast enough. Our emails were shorter, they weren't as intimate and I was just like I Already got a mother, I don't need another one. I felt as though I was cheating on my mother in a way.
Speaker 1:I can only speak of my own experience. I would say, probably four months in of the few months that I had, when my birth mother would say things like I love you. It freaked me out every time and it wasn't because I didn't believe she had love for me, it just it just didn't feel Comfortable, if that makes sense. So I'm sure that's a little bit of what you were experiencing, just that super uncomfortable, like ooh, that's, that's not what I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know in retrospect, a lot of that people pleasing capacity and tendency was Was very prominent. So, you know, when I met her, of course I was gonna be welcoming, of course I was gonna be friendly, or, in my moments of silence, just like, you know, trying to Trying to picture this, you know what I, what I call the. You know, the steel door that kept the past from the present and who would I have been kind of thing during that revelation was also my paperwork from the state. You know I got the court transcript from when she relinquished her rights to me and the judge addressed her. You know I use your name, joyce. Yes, sir, are you the mother of this Negro child? And I was like Negro child, who's a Negro child, you know? And then it turns out she's like, yeah, I think you know your father was, was light skin, some people thought he was black, some people thought he might have been Indian or, you know, middle Eastern or maybe Italian.
Speaker 2:You know he was. Turns out the whole family was all the colors of the rainbow, if you will, some very dark, some very light, but all the same parents for me. That moment of Wow, when that moment happened. I say that my, my inner brainstem was like, yeah, we knew that. You know, there was some sense that that wasn't a surprise to me that I had some African-American tendencies in me. You know I'm not fully but number of reasons so really didn't surprise me or say it was more. Just like this I'm not Italian anymore, I'm not a Rocco anymore. So I went from having an immigrant ship bring me here that immigrant ship story to having a Mayflower insider. You know settler pilgrim Story and I've also got this slave ship story. So it's like massive confusion on those ones.
Speaker 1:I Almost sometimes think of that as a little bit of a crisis of ethnicity identity. I also grew up thinking my heritage was my family's heritage. Why wouldn't I that? Those were the stories that I knew?
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, you know, and it was something that we were very proud of and, I think, rightfully so. You know, I mean, I don't. I don't have any problem with people being proud of their Heritage, as long as it doesn't interfere on others rights and privileges. You know, and he was. You know where I grew up, in Erie, pennsylvania, it was also there were a lot of Italians. It was. It wasn't, you know, we weren't, we weren't unusual. The mayor was Italian, everyone was Italian. You know, I mean, it was. You had the festivals, we hung out with Italians. It was. You know, it was perfectly fine. And I think it's around that time where I started having those feelings of. You know, I always was a little different. You know, even though I was, it was never something that I thought of as being related to adoption, it was always just I was a little different. My family was just a whole, a whole menagerie of characters. So weird wasn't weird in my family. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I do. I was just gonna say Individual identity wasn't an issue in your, in your family, from what it sounds like. Yeah Well, tell us a little bit about how you started to rebuild yourself.
Speaker 2:I would say, you know, my rebuilding, I think, really took place after my separation and divorce because I, once again, I just lived in this. You know, with this new bit of information, I had no interest in finding my father. I, I kind of backstep from my mother, my birth mother, settled into something. We'd see each other maybe once a year, maybe not, and then we separated and a lot of it was clearly related to these inner workings. You know Of this wasn't even the person I was meant to be married to. You know like my life has been and so altered and twisted, and you know I said almost an obsession with this, this past life that didn't exist, that didn't happen. You know what, if, what, if, what, if and I think it did, you know, really contribute to a lot of the deterioration of the marriage. And I was busy with work and just never addressed any issues, never talked about it, just just went on, just go through once again. And I think guys do that. I think male reaction and female reaction is different. I wasn't angry, I wasn't, I was like whatever, it's what it is, and I just got to work tomorrow and cloud the driveway and do what I got to do, and. But then I said, when the separation and the divorce happened, and separation first, you know, I found myself, you know, alone thinking and I'm like I need to find my father's. So then that's when I did that. And then, you know, turns out that, you know, absolutely, he was african-american, no question.
Speaker 2:I met cousins, I met uncles, I met the family, I learned about them and, like I said, there was, there were some members of the family who lived their whole lives as white. They were able to pass. They were light enough. I heard a story recently that when one passed they, they called the, the funeral director, to go identify the body, what not? They had been estranged for a while and when they showed up the undertaker was like oh, I'm sorry, this, this is not your brother, this guy is white. And he's like no, that's our brother. You know, and I said so, some of them lived their lives as white. Others were darker skinned. They, you know, the one was a black panther during the sixties. So it went the whole gamut from.
Speaker 2:You know, civil rights, radical, black panther, whatever you want to cut, you know, just, civil rights movement strong. I got a photo of my first grandmother leaning on Muhammad Ali's knee, you know, at one of his training camps and you see those things and you know, you're like, wow, that's putting me in my family, right next to Martin Luther and Malcolm X and the whole civil rights movement and black panthers, and suddenly you're like that's a part of me as well, you know. So then I mean putting myself back together, first included learning about all that. You know, I mean I read James Baldwin's book, you know, go tell it on the mountain. I read w e the brah.
Speaker 2:I read, you know, frederick Douglass. I mean I'm I love to read, I usually do audio books and you know I really immersed myself in a lot of the African American culture just to understand it, to understand me, and I think a lot of it was, you know when I would, would see something, you know, I would hear about the scotsboro boys or something, and it made me look it up, suddenly made a difference to me and I wanted to learn more I'm going to rewind quite a bit and what I'm going to ask next is during some of your dialogue, just in the last few minutes, you mentioned the gender component of your response.
Speaker 1:Can you expand on that a little bit, do you? I think you mentioned men process, maybe just a little bit different than than females, and I'm intrigued by that comment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's definitely true. I think, you know, whatever the reason, and you know we could have theories on it, but I think, in general, you know, men are more, you know, dominant in nature, physical in nature, whether it be athletic or you know, the, the masculine Persona, if you will, is not going to show weakness. You know it's showing strength at all times, whether that be, you know, rousing one another. You know, or you know, my son and I, he's always getting me in arm bars and holds and it's just always a physical, you know, to come out and say, you know, oh, I'm having feelings about this identity, or about this adoption thing, about this race thing, I'm having feelings about them. I Don't have time for feelings.
Speaker 2:I was busy, I had stuff to do. I was, you know, I was in one of the busiest practices in central Pennsylvania. It was a cage match of orthopedic surgeons, you know, trying to produce and trying to be busy and taking call, and I mean it's a very macho, dominated, male dominated profession and friends wanted to hear about my colleagues, wanted to hear about my Feelings and you know even my, my, you know, wife, she wanted to hear the good Rosie thing. She didn't want to hear my, my doubts and questions about it. So it just stayed inside and it didn't come out, it just I just lived with it.
Speaker 1:Do you think that's common in the adoption community with males, that there's a some kindred Spirits may be out there with you that feel that way or haven't made it to the comfort level of discussing Adoption, or theirs, very specifically?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, and I think you know, I mean, I have a group of guys that I hang out with online. You know, we actually formed a, a Facebook page of, you know, of male adoptees, which I think is great, and you know a lot of it we always laugh about. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, you know. And husbands reactions to their wives, you know, but why? You know. Your wife or girlfriend comes to you and says she's having a problem.
Speaker 2:The first thing you want to do is, oh, we can solve that, you know, here's all we got to do. Well, don't dismiss my feelings. I know I get your feelings, but let's solve the problem. I don't want you to solve the problem, I just want you to listen to me. I mean, you get back and forth into this.
Speaker 2:I mean it just is, you know, when it's men, together, it is we're looking for a solution, we're looking for how to fix this thing or how to identify it or categorize it. I mean it's, it's the proactive, in a way, a proactive approach of, well, you know, not necessarily get over it, but get through it, whereas I think a lot of the, you know, the female gathers comfort from each other and sharing the stories and sharing the. You know, you can explain that tendency to me, that you want to bond and and you want to, you know, share and Be a part of it, not necessarily solve it per se. You want to just feel it and understand each other first, or just just share that, those emotions, whereas men don't want to share the emotions. They want to fix the problem, if you will, you know yeah, I think that's a great character Characterization.
Speaker 1:I can only speak for myself. I don't really have a lot of tendency to fix everybody. So there's that and I like to just hear that. Others have been there and maybe I can learn from it. I would say that's probably a pretty common theme amongst myself and my Adoptive friends that I talked to on a regular and I would say we have a little bit of an emotional connection to family. I've not experienced this, I only know what others have told me. But those emotions have a tendency to ramp up when they've had children. It changes right. A lot changes as we grow and as we age and. But I am infinitely intrigued about how quiet my words, how quiet the male adoptee community Sometimes appears to be in relationship to these types of conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know we all comment on it. I mean there's I think we have 30 members in our group right now. They're all solid, all solid characters. Really, you know good guys and I don't want to start mentioning any of them because I'm there, all impressive to me. You know, in different ways, very different. You know not the same, but I think we do. We do share, and you know we may not talk as much on our pages. You know you may have a couple posts here and there, someone to throw out, something, someone will add to it, but it's not a deluge of, you know, a damn breaking of Emotions on the page and you know there's some joking and and some, you know, some funny memes and, and you know it's. It's definitely a different, a different feel, but I think it's something that you know males feel more comfortable with yeah, I definitely can imagine that, that there is that Component to it.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk a little bit. You've mentioned, or touched on it, connection to the community. I do know a little bit about that group and I I'm extremely excited for that group and I hope it grows very rapidly. I think it'll be nothing but a benefit. So kudos to all of you that are listening in there, that are a part of that group. I just think it's a great thing. But if you don't mind, let's go ahead and dive into kind of connecting to the community beyond the group and what that, what that means to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. I think it's huge, I think it's. You know, my first contact was with Michael Rocco. He goes Michael Rocco's his, his name, and in adoption community and it just coincidental that his, his birth, birth last name was my adopted last name. So when I got an Instagram post that says you may know Michael Rocco, and I see this mention of adoption and I'm like, wait a minute, who's michael rocco? And then it says like well, my michael rocco was my birth name, and I'm like, oh crap, is this like my father's son? Is this my uncle's son? Who's this? Is this a mysterious rocco that belongs in our family? And it turns out, no, you know, I mean, he was just, it was just a coincidental name.
Speaker 2:But we started talking and eventually started doing some podcast episodes and you know a lot of phone conversations. He was much more um, I'm not going to go into his story, but he had a much, much more difficult time with his family, bonding with them and connecting with them and a lot of things that have of us. But you know, he would say, you know, jack, we couldn't be more different. But we get each other. You know, I think as we've gotten to know each other.
Speaker 2:I think we're less and less different and I find that, with so many adoptees that you know, you look on the surface and you're like, oh, I'm nothing like that person, or they're so much more of this, so much more that than I am, um, but then once you get down to their basic message, their basic feelings, the core issues are the same. It's lack of control, it's lack of belonging, it's lack of, you know, knowledge. It's feeling is the outsider. You know all the things that you know, the fundamental core issues that most adoptees have, but it ends up being, whether it's a person you know, whether it's a personality thing, whether it's a nature thing, whether it's a nurture thing, like how they react to those feelings, or is it a free will thing, how they choose to react to these things. You know that that pulls them in one direction and pulled me in a different direction or pulled someone else in a third direction. So, you know, I mean it's been hugely helpful for me to get into the community and and hear and listen, whether I participate or not.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the content and it's also kind of flattering or humbling that people are coming to me and I'm you know, I'm a newbie here. I'm uh, you know I kind of I did it for me, I didn't do it for anyone else. You know, I said I wrote the book first for me, second for my kids and third, if there's anyone else who's interested, fine, you know, and it's. It's been flattering that the number of other people interested has been so many and so enthusiastic yeah, I think that's a positive of the community I do want to touch on.
Speaker 1:There is a significant amount of benefit even when we do stuff locally, because we never know who's been touched or who might need a moment, or they are waiting to find the person that helps them relate. We just never know yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's so many opportunities, so many people still feel like there's no resources available. And there's plenty of resources available. But they're, you know, almost in a dark underground, you know, just amongst the dot, these not really released to the general public.
Speaker 1:If you will, so, so willingly well, I agree with you and I think that those are really key points, and so I want to do a couple of things. I want to give a shout out. You've mentioned him a couple times. He's been a guest here on this show as well, and that is fred necora, and his book is for budin roots, and so, uh, we'll shamelessly plug him as well in this episode, because he's come up a couple different times in your dialogue and he has a great story for those of you that have not had a chance to listen to that episode or read his book. And then, as we're closing out here, jack, let's just talk about again your book, which is called recycled, and it's in, I believe you said, three parts. It tackles the nurture side, a little bit of your nature side, and then your free will and the rebuild of yourself. Do I have that correct?
Speaker 2:yes, I think that's a good summary. I always say that. If you want to read the 32nd version of my book, you just read the quote at the beginning of each point. In the nurture section I quote benjamin disraeli I think he was a president of israel and he says nurture your mind with good thoughts, because from the heroic comes, creates heroes. And I would say that was very much my upbringing, just very idyllic, just the stories you know, creating heroes and be strong.
Speaker 2:Part two is nature comes from rembrandt and it is have only one master, nature. And then part three is a quote starts that that's the thing about free will every choice for one thing is a choice against another. So I think to me sums up the feeling of the book that raised to be this heroic figure and I think I did the best I could, you know, trying to professionally achieve and be a pleaser and everything. And then when I learned my nature, it's like that was really the master all along was my nature. And now I'm stuck in this conundrum of who do I choose? Do I choose my nurture? Do I choose my nature? Can they live cohesively together or will they forever be at odds, forever battling one another, of who I was, who I should have been, who I am, who I could have been, and how do I merge all those in the one cohesive life.
Speaker 2:But I think it's. It's challenging. I try to. I'm not going to give you the answer at the end of the book because I want to leave a little teaser, but I I come to a conclusion for me that has been helpful for me. I won't apologize for it, it's, it's what, what has helped me. I do try to live that. I do try to as difficult as it is but as long of a story as it is, to come up with the ending. I think it's important to me and I think it has helped me and hopefully to help others.
Speaker 1:Well, that sounds great. It has been a fantastic conversation with you today here on the podcast, jack, and I just want to say thank you so much for joining us and opening up to other adoptees, but also opening up as a gentleman in our community, and I hope that it encourages other gentlemen as well to kind of get out there and start telling their stories so that there is a well-rounded perspective on on these things. So I just want to say thank you again for coming on the show today.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you so much. It's. It's really been a pleasure. I'm honored to be able to share and flattering, so thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to today's episode. Make sure to rate, review and share. Want to join the conversation? Contact us at wanderingtreeadoptedcom.