Don That Batsuit! From Survival to Empowered Connection with Kristin Keliher

What happens when the deep, (often hidden) desire for safety becomes the organizing force of our lives?

In this timely episode of The Wild Temple Podcast, Brooke Sullivan is joined by clinical therapist and school counselor Kristin Keliher for a deeply honest conversation about nervous systems, overperformance, community care, and what it means to become an empowered human in a world organized around fear, productivity, and survival.

Drawing from polyvagal theory, psychoeducation, trauma work, and lived experience, they explore how the unconscious drive for safety can secretly shape identity, relationships, spirituality, and activism, narrowing our capacity for rest, authenticity, connection, and collective care. Together, they unpack cognitive dissonance, burnout culture, people-pleasing, perfectionism, and the ways many women have been conditioned to abandon their true selves in order to belong.

The conversation moves between the deeply personal and the profoundly collective: from childhood self-expression and school systems to mutual aid, white saviorism, patriarchy, and the crumbling structures of modern society. Rather than offering bypassing or easy answers, this episode asks a more vital question: 

What helps us feel safe enough to live with empowered reciprocity and wider circles of care?

Through reflections on embodiment and micro acts of resistance, Brooke and Kristin illuminate a path from contraction toward connection, from hypervigilance toward relational belonging, from self-protection toward collective love.

This conversation is reminder that healing is not only personal. It is communal, relational, and deeply political. Sometimes the revolution begins with nervous system repair. Sometimes, by casting wider nets. We feel it definitely begins with the freedom to don your Batsuit.

Meet with Brooke and Guests 1x/month to ask questions and discuss the topics that we cover on our podcast! It is also a place for us to share the visual aspects of this podcast- PDFs, recipes, mantras, yantras and more! 

This community will offer a space to connect with other seekers and wellness practioners in a manner that will inspire your practice and education in all things Tantra! visit www.thewildtemple.com/community and/or download the Circle.so App & find us there.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We the omnipotent fermentations of time taking ancient dreams a technological prime Weep the stories of the own right through the soul And so they told and told until they start to transform The Born again into the next era with the modiflare But the message still bears the one in the many, many in the one So come on in cause you're most welcome to the temple of Earth, the sun and the moon Reclaim your power it's the place we commune A place with the mind, the body is the whole The Seed and through the ages become infrangible. Welcome to the Wild Temple. Welcome to the Wild Temple.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Welcome. I'm Brooke Shannon Sullivan, founder of the Global School, the Wild Temple School of Yoga and Herbal Wisdom, and the host of this Wild Temple podcast. Through shared inquiry with myself and guests, we explore embodied wisdom in the subtle realms with a focus this season on desire as a generative force, Shaktian motion, and its role in Dharmic living and conscious evolution. This space is for practical mystics, heartled seekers, and wellness professionals drawn to the Vedic and Panthic sciences and in cultivating a deeper relationship with Mother Nature. New episodes arrive every noon and full moon as we follow the wheel of time. And in the spirit of reciprocity, you're invited to follow this podcast, to leave a comment on the platform you're listening on, and to share with others. Thank you so much for being here at the Wild Temple and to stay connected. Please visit theWildTemple.com or we're on Instagram at the Wild Temple duel. Welcome, Wild Temple listeners. So glad to have you here today. And I wanted to talk a little bit about this deep driving force, this deep unconscious, often unconscious desire that we have, that we carry, and it shapes our lives. And because we don't often know about it, it can be very limiting, very constricting, very disconnecting from a happy and joyful life and from the world at large. And this is this unconscious desire for safety. The interesting thing is it is biological, right? We need to feel safe. It's also ancestral. We've inherited from many different streams of our patriarchal line, matriarchal line, even our spiritual heritage, this need for safety. And it's to protect us for thrival, right? Protect us to actually just be able to live on the planet, to do our thing, and to continue to expand the civilizations of humanity as we know it. However, this again, as this unconscious driving force, can actually be putting a cap on our growth in humanity, our growth in, I would say, a well-rounded, very loving, caring human civilization. And one of the reasons why is we can bring this into the work of Deb Dana and Stephen Porges, which is the polyvagal perspective. We're constantly scanning through our nervous systems every moment for cues for safety or threat. And this is often termed negative bias, right? We're looking for the threat that may be in the room or in the environment so we can reorient, so we're always safe. The organism is always safe. And in this way, our system is organizing around protection first. And this is where it gets interesting because when this desire for safety becomes the primary organizing force of life, when it consumes everything, it can begin to shape us in ways that we're not always wanting. And that's why I think this deep driving force that is often unconscious really needs to be seen, because on maybe a conscious level, we're wanting to act in a certain way, or we're wanting to feel the world to be a certain way, and yet it isn't, and we don't always recognize why it isn't, that this desire for safety that everyone carries is the culprit, essentially. And so if we were to look at it, say, because many of our listeners are women and mamas and wellness professionals and practical mystics, I would say that many of you listening, it can look like this desire for safety leads to overwork. It leads to overperforming, or this ambitious drive because you feel you need to hold everything together. You're the one that can never drop the ball, you have to control everything, right? And because you're so damn capable, you do it well. So we are highly functioning, safety-driven humans, but it leads to burnout. And this leads to also disconnect when we're not aware of this. And so, again, for many of you listening, you may have experienced a lot of instability in life, maybe a lot of loss, maybe sickness or family breakup or a hardcore move or environmental catastrophe. All of these can push you into this default mode of safety first. And when we live this way for too long, which we know right now, modern society is kind of pushing us into living through this lens of safety, our entire life begins to constrict and to narrow. Our perception narrows, our choices narrow, and from this limited capacity, we are unable to truly move into this next level, I feel, as in as humans should in our next level of evolution. We're kind of maintaining in this way that's like the old paradigm and it's not serving us. And so, again, just naming all of this, it's not personal, we're collectively doing it. Yeah, it's important to see its shadow side. And so one of the major shadows is that we are living in these systems that have shaped us to reward overwork, to reward this ambitious drive. And it is really sad to say, but it's being more and more revealed that these systems that we have relied on to keep us safe are only keeping us just safe enough, or just thinking we're just safe enough to function, but not safe enough to rest, not safe enough to have like a buffer, or again, in the nervous system view, the window of tolerance, the spaciousness that can allow us to move into this next level, which is the willingness to love, the willingness to trust. And so my inquiry today with my dear guests, thank you so much, Kristen, for being here. I'm going to introduce you here in a moment. Is this larger conversation and this larger arc of what will it take us to move beyond this kind of limited idea or organization of our life around safety? What would it take individually and collectively to create the kinds of support or the kinds of safety nets that can start to allow us to breathe, to relax, to get big, to choose differently, and to move more from this idea of me and I into the we. And also what happens when this organizing force begins to shift, because it can feel like something's crumbling and it can, this like chaotic interruption can make it feel worse and make us feel even less safe. And I think it would be really nice to highlight where these places that are breaking down are actually serving us so we can just take a moment in the mess and allow it to be messy and trust that on the other side it can be okay. So from politics to uh religious structures to school systems. And what I love about listening to Kristen, so we have really deep conversations and even watching Kristans grow throughout the past few decades is that there's a lot of actionability. So you're well-read, you are also a deeply caring person. And it's through your practice that you have gained all of these tools and insights from working with the clientele that you're working with, but also widening your aperture to include the community at large and even the larger communities of society and try to figure out how to make this bridge from this pain and woe and suffering that we're in into a life that looks different. And so, my first question for you, Kristen, would be from your work, and you can also add anything you want to also to introduce yourself, but from your work, how do you see this drive for safety shaping people's lives, especially when it becomes the primary lens that they're living through?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah, good question. So thanks for having me on. It's always such a pleasure to talk with you. Like you said, we always have really deep conversations and they go places that I never know that that's where they were heading, and then they get there. So from very young, we are set up again for survival, right? Like our brains are set up to help us survive. And so we are put in this family, and we come as an individual, and then the family and the society sends us these messages that this is who you're supposed to be, right? And so, but maybe that's not who we authentically are. So we have to like meld and mold and and create who we think society wants us to be because we want to be safe mentally, socially, physically, right? So like social safety is also really important to us. We are community beings, we need each other to survive, and so we have to feel a sense of belonging. And so sometimes we have to change who we are in order to feel that sense of belonging because we think this is what this, this is what this community wants me to be, this is what this community wants me to be, this is what this community wants me to be. So we get all these messages from society, from our family, from maybe our religious structure as to who we want to be. And so that just starts to create this cognitive distance between who we authentically are and who we feel like we have been told we need to be.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Can you speak a little more into the cognitive dissonance? I love this subject and it's powerful, especially when you're in it.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yeah, yeah, and you don't really know you're in it when you're in it, right? Because like you're just trying to like get from day to day, right? So like if you are walking through life as your authentic self, but then you hear that like you're too much, you're too loud, you're too emotional, you're too this, you're too that, right? And we start thinking, but that's how I feel, but then we keep getting these messages that we're too much. So here we are with this struggle of this is who I am, but this is who they're telling me to be. So that's where the cognitive dissonance comes into play because you're like trying to grapple with, I am, I know who I am, right? We are, I really truly believe we are born at our core, knowing who we are. And then that is twisted and changed and molded dependent on the situations that we're put in. And sometimes at no fault of our own, right? Our parents, lots of our parents do their best with the information that they have. And so this cognitive dissonance is like you're constantly struggling with this is who I am, but this is who I have to be, this is who I am, but this is who I have to be. And so we we dampen ourselves, or we like you said earlier, or we just like put our heads down because like I'm really good at school, so I'm just gonna get school done because I'm really good at that. And everyone seems to be okay with that. So I'm just gonna go do and do and do because I get accepted here and I get accepted there, and I get accepted there for being that person.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Yeah, and this makes me think about people, especially teenagers, right? The pressure of being a teenager or even uh just like a an adolescence where we're moving towards this idea of society wants us to be in a certain way. And so we're fitting ourselves in this box, as you're saying, this kind of certain scenario, and we're ignoring who we authentically are. So we're starting to learn how to hide those parts of ourselves. And in that hiding, uh, coupled with the high performance pressure of schooling, and I'm thinking especially too in like the Bay Area, I was talking with a number of moms that, and I know this is your jurisdiction too, so I think it's it's appropriate to ask you this question. There are areas in the Bay Area where children go to commit suicide, and it's this huge, hushed thing because they don't want to shine the light on how pressure the school system is and why they don't have the safety nets to save them from this scenario, and it's just becoming a very large problem. This is like San Mateo, Palo Alto area. And the thought that I'm having is with what you've just shared, if we were able to shine the light on cognitive dissonance for parents for their children, then it could hopefully start to lessen their support in pressuring or being more aware of what the school is doing or what society is doing and encouraging their children to find the ways to feel comfortable with being themselves while also feeling safe in doing so. Like, what do you give as I'm sure you have certain tools for this? Like, what can you give the parents and the children to ensure they're coming back online? Because when you come back online is one of the ways that we can say this through the nervous system, when we are back online and feeling at least safe enough to be ourselves, then we can start to be very clear. These children can start to be more clear as to the dissonance that's occurring. So they realize, oh, well, that's absurd that they're wanting me to be in this certain way or act this certain way. I'm gonna be true to myself. Like, is there anything that you're giving children right now or that parents can work with to help like more in that younger stage of life heal the cognitive dissonance to empower them sooner?

SPEAKER_02 15:16

When you say younger, are you are you talking like before teenage years?

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Yeah, I mean, I guess so. I think it could be anywhere from the age of like six, seven, eight, you know, then moving into teen years. It's like when you're starting to feel this sense of uh separation from your family and you are more this individual in the world, even if it's your, you know, your your trial and error is in the schoolyard, you know, it's it's within your classroom. Yeah. So but you're still it's you're definitely not an adult, but you're a little human. And so your little human self coming into this classroom, which is more like a laboratory, little petri dish, right? With some more tools. So that we have, like, for example, my husband, who you know very well, he has this song that has really helped with bullying, and it's called called Gotta Be Me. And so a lot of children used to use this song in their talent show, especially children who were bullied. And people would send him notes from families to the children themselves to my husband saying, Thank you so much. Like, I didn't realize I could just be weird, you know, because that's part of the song and the lyrics. So, just coming from your perspective, if we're looking at the deep and driving desire of most people is safety. And yeah, if we yeah, like how to ensure that we do have that to a degree so that we can relax and then be more ourselves and and in uh community.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah. I think one of the first things you can do is just let your kids express themselves, right? And if that means that they wear their Batman costume to school on Tuesday, then they wear their Batman costume to school on Tuesday, right? Because the parents are also under the same messages from society, right? Like this is how a parent parents, this is how we parent. And if your kid shows up to school on Tuesday in a Batman costume, that says some things about you as a parent. So, like, first the parent has to do the work, right? Like you have to be okay and and and solid in your authenticity to know that like because your kid shows up to school on Tuesday with a Batman costume doesn't mean that you are an XYZ type of parent. It just means that you're letting your kid be their authentic selves today. And then the next day, maybe they wear like a nice matchy matchy outfit. Like, I think clothes are like a really easy way to let your kids start to express themselves as soon as they want to start picking out their own clothes, right? Like at three, four, five, your kid can start like if they want to wear mismatched shoes, let them wear mismatched shoes. If that's gonna hurt their feet, they're gonna find that out. And then they're they won't wear mismatched shoes, right? And then we have to teach them okay, so we're going outside in the rain and you need to wear your boots today, right? Or or or what like sometimes there are lessons along the way, but maybe they want to wear their rain boots for the next three weeks. Let them wear their rain boots for the next three weeks. Like, who is it hurting? And it is a way for it for you to send them the message I trust who you are, I trust you know who you are. So go ahead and be you, right? And then as a as a school, we have to set up a system where however a student shows up that day that that they are accepted, that they are part of the community, we want them part of the community, they belong in our community as they are. Right. So I think it's the parents and and school systems need to work together to understand that there is a spectrum of students coming into our buildings, and all of those students belong, and we have to make sure that the systems that they walk into give them that message.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

I love that so much. And then you think about people who have to wear uniforms. I think about my own upbringing. My mom always made me wear freaking these, I don't know if you remember those cable knit tights and oh my gosh. And it would like with the cable knit tights and with the skirt, my belly was always squished, I always felt uncomfortable, my legs were always itchy. So discomfort in the body was the norm for me going to school, right? And then you're trying to override those sensations, ignore them essentially, so that you can have your conversations, do your homework, pay attention. Then I think about my daughter and even my nephew. I mean, my nephew, oh my gosh, every time we saw him, he was a different superhero from like age two to I think seven. He did it for a very long time. And I was so yeah, it was very interesting to watch. I was just like, oh gosh, is he is this a problem? That's you know how my mind was is this a problem that he is not living in reality? He's always another character. But now as an adult, looking at him, he is so well-rounded.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

He is like because he got to be who he wanted, he got to be himself for that time period. So the message he he received was, huh, I'm me. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Yes, it's so true. And yeah, even Saki, my own daughter, she didn't want because she had to be on stage so often, she showed up to school for years. All she wore was an oversized t-shirt to hide her body and Crocs. And like her hair in this matted net because she didn't want to brush it. So I just, you know, I just kind of let her be her little wild thing. And now she's just, yeah, super well-rounded.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

And yeah, yeah, we really, yeah. That's because she was sent that message of like, hey, who you are today is totally acceptable.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

You belong. So for those of us who did not get that message growing up, Kristen, right? And all of I would say, maybe our generation, what are we, Gen Z, Gen X? I can never remember. Okay, thank you. And then even the millennials, I know that's what my sister is. So there are preconditions that have now led us to this conditioned life of safety and to belong in society. And so one of the things that we are seeing is that, especially for women, because we do have to work harder to make the same amount of money or to be able to even work up the ladder in towards management positions or higher-tier jobs, we are in this kind of over-performance, overachieving, overworking into burnout. And so I'm curious your take on this also, how this kind of high-functioning meeting of our own internal states into what the world's demands are. How can we navigate this? How can we start to even mitigate it so that it's not leading us all to burnout? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

One thing we can do is we can get to know our parts, right? We can get to know those little five year olds that were told you can't wear that, you can't do that, you're too loud. Slow. Down, calm down, damper down, right? Like, so get to know those, those, those younger selves of ours because they're still here, right? We still, like, as we walk through the world, we are also our five-year-old self, our 12-year-old self, or 15-year-old self, or 25-year-old self. Like, they're all in there and they all receive messages. And so, I mean, it can even be as simple as like writing our five-year-old self a letter. I mean, like, hey, five-year-old Kristen, I want to let you know that what you did was enough. I want to let you know that like, you know, I forgive you, or, or like, like, I forgive you for hiding who you were. I forgive you for, you know, for dampening down your enthusiasm, for like putting your creativity in a box because it didn't fit into the box that everybody else put you in. And so just starting to figure out the messages that we were told and how they created the cognitive dissonance and the fracture of who we really were, right? Like, and and what were the touch points along our lives. Because I know, like, if we all sit there, we can really think about like you with the uniform, right? Like, like I I remember the day that that I put on a uniform. Like, same same thing with me. Like, I remember walking through with my uniform. And like people will talk about how uniforms will stop bullying. I was bullied because it and I wore a uniform because I had the wrong shoes, or because I had a hand-me-down uniform, or because I had a I had a car, I had a button-down instead of a pullover sweater.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

So, like, like the uniform doesn't get rid of the bullying. What gets rid of the bullying is society just starting to accept everyone for who they are. And so, if we can just start to be gentle with ourselves and give ourselves grace for taking the roads that we took and forgive ourselves for not being fully authentic. Because I feel like a lot of us overperformers kind of fault ourselves for not going down the road we wanted to, and instead going down the road that society said was okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Okay, so this will branch us off into a couple of different limbs of this tree. So I definitely want to talk about the systems that are shaping us and how we can start to become more aware of that so that we can lessen their grip. But just for closure here and for more practical landing of this cognitive dissonance, can you give some examples? So you have a high-achiev woman, for example, she's worked her nine to five, she's come home, had to make dinner, or maybe she has a loving partner and they co-created dinner together, or he made dinner and she was able to do the dishes. But then she didn't turn off. She continued to work into the night. Maybe she's studying about the mind. Maybe she's studying about how to learn some uh deeper truths that can help pull her out of whatever is creating this almost like highly wound scenario where her nervous system is so high strung that she feels it. She's in anxiety, she's in worry, she's in doubt, she's in fear, and she can't get that frequency to lower. So, would you give us some examples of maybe first and foremost, how to recognize it, like where to put a fork in it, you know, press pause and then what you can do. I know you just gave one example, but yeah, if you have anything else that you could share for the actual recognition.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

So, like recognizing that you're always an amped up. Yeah. Because if you live there all the time, it's really hard to recognize it.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Exactly. You think it's normal and there's something wrong with you.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or there's something right with you, right? Like there's a lot of women that are like, I don't need, I only need four hours of sleep. What do you mean? I can I can do this and I can do that, and I could, right? Like I can, I'm a great multitasker. I mean, that is a badge a lot of us wear.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

Oh my god. And in the meantime, they're getting fibroids and you know, patches of their hair falling out.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yes, yes, and and heart disease, right? Like, like all the things. So I guess the first part is like you said, like you you have to notice. Like, like notice like what does your body feel like at rest? Like when you just sit down and you don't have don't have a to-do list in your head, what does that feel like in your body? And immediately some of us will be like, what do you mean I don't have a to-do list in my head? That causes some anxiety in me. Okay, so you're gonna notice that. Right? And then you're going to like noticing is like the number one thing that we can do. Like, what does it feel like in your body? Because you have got to start to notice what amped up feels like, what shut down feels like, and what like resilience feels like. You know, like what what what does it feel like when you are like in sync with yourself? Because if you are always an amped up, you are not in sync with your body because you are ignoring so many bodily cues in order to stay an amped up. Right. And so, like amped up is like your your heart rate is is is racing, your arms are sweaty, your hands are sweaty, your pupils are dilated, you're talking really fast, you are fidgety, right? Like, all you want to notice, like, is that how is that your homeostasis? Is that is that your usual homeostasis? Yeah, is that just the mode that you live in? And then how do you get yourself from there to calm?

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Yeah, because that can be incredibly uncomfortable to pause and how amped you are. Yeah, so it's easier to avoid.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, particularly if you have trauma.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Like it can feel unsafe to not be amped up and ready to fight.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

Yeah. And then if society is telling you, yeah, you go girl, you fight, you do more, do more work, yeah, work at night too, yeah. You know, so there creates the cognitive, or that's a like a somatic dissonance, right? So you're disconnected from listening to your body to try to be catching up with what society's demands are and avoiding the fact that you are racing heartbeat, sweating, pupil stylated.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

So what would be a suggestion for someone in that scenario, in that extreme discomfort, what can they do?

SPEAKER_02 29:01

So I don't want to give, like I don't want to give therapy advice because again, if you come from a place of trauma, I don't want to send you into a place that is going to trigger you. So I want to give something that can allow you to just start to notice your body sensations without stopping the trauma response that has kept you safe.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

And why can you I know why, but can you explain the reasons why? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah, because if we do not have the proper structures set up for us to explore our trauma, we can send ourselves into like an extreme trauma response.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Because we don't feel safe.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Because we right, yeah, yeah, because we we feel safe in flig mode, right? So if we come down to calm mode, if we come down to resilient mode, safe mode, that feels very unsafe for us because we don't know when the next danger is coming. And so it's really important that if you do have trauma, that you find some support networks in order to work through that trauma so that then you they can give you skills as you're working through that trauma so that you feel okay in in calm mode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

When I was thinking of some questions to talk with you about, one of the things that I really loved, it hit me in the middle of the night. And it was this just very topic of this deep driving force of safety as a desire. And yet, if we were to shift that, that's actually moving us from this more, I would say, selfishness, because it's it's focusing on just I, and we need it. And like you said, we need to actually feel safe to even heal. We need to have these support systems to even heal. But when that gripping tendency and just focus, a hyper focus on safety becomes your modus operandi. That's how you see the world, that's how you are acting and reacting in the world, then how that can perpetuate the need for safety. It can perpetuate that fight, flight, and disconnect. And so, what would be from the spiritual lens, a bomb, a salve for this? And it would be to exalt that emotion to move it, move through it and to move us towards willingness to love. Or how my mind worked actually was what are other desires that are not just desire for safety? Well, a deep driving desire is the desire to be loved. Well, in order to be loved, we have to love. And we know this whenever we're in like this kind of small, limited mindset, and then we go and we help someone else. We take care of the elderly neighbor, or we bring food to someone who is sick, or we help a birthing uh food tree, whatever it might be, that all of a sudden we feel better. We're connected, we're not hyper-focused on safety. There's like, it's almost like we've lifted up our frequency into another realm, into another way of being. Nothing's changed. It's been our internal perspective. And so when I was thinking all that through in the middle of the night, I remembered our conversation around you had this really great insight of in order to start to shift us from this mode, we have to have ways of supporting ourselves to feel safe enough to get into that next step. So I saw them as safety nets, but it's not just safety nets. They're almost like throwing out these safety nets that are little love zones that can allow us to rest. And you just shared it with this one. It's the support team so that your nervous system then feels safe enough to go into the discomfort of why you're overachieving and can't calm the fuck down. And from that safety net, then you can grow into that next level. And so I do want to talk about these, and I know that there could be a better name for it, these like love nets, you know, or um, but if you are to maybe say, take this same person, right, who is the overachiever, high performer, workaholic type A mentality from whatever background she has, and is facing the society that is keeping her unstable, that is keeping her in fear. Highly toxic news, the you know, just the taking away of Roe v. Wade, all you know, the right to your own body, the right to your own claiming of uh gender or being non-binary, like there are all of these threats that society is instilling upon us. So I'm curious your thoughts about from the from like a therapeutic angle, without giving therapy, but from the therapeutic angle, what are some ways that we can start throwing out safety nets for ourselves and for others? And this might be a very big question because I know you also have many communities too, and it's gonna look different from a white woman in suburbia who has some privilege to a black woman who doesn't have as much money or privilege. Yeah, so I'm curious.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Yeah. So safety nets. I think it's really important to find people that don't think like you. Hey, I think it's really important, and and and I I wanna prep, I want to also say that does not mean that if you are an extreme leftist, that you should go talk with Mega. So when I say people that don't think like you, I don't mean that you should put yourself in an unsafe situation. Like I want to I want to clarify that right now. I am not one of those people that thinks like we will never come to a positive place in society unless we reach across the aisle and shake hands. When the other side of the aisle literally wants to rip your arm off after you shake hands with them. So, like, like when I say find people that don't think like you, so I'm a very granola woo-woo kind of girl, but I have some very scientific-minded friends. And and I have lots of friends that think differently from me in ways that I'm still safe when we have a conversation, right? So if you are a transgender woman, I don't think you should go to your neighbor next door that has a Trump flag and be like, hey, I think we should get to know each other. Again, like safety is where we come from a lot of the times because it is priority number one, right? Like our brain and our biology is set up to keep us safe. But I think it's also not but and it's also important to speak with people that maybe think differently than you so that you can start to get different perspectives on how to build that social safety network, right? Because like some of us are gonna think it looks one way, but like like you said, I'm a privileged white woman, right? So, like if I speak with, you know, a black woman that was raised in Charlotte, you know, in a city in Charlotte, she is going to have very different ideas of what safety looks like than what I think safety looks like. So we have to open up our eyes to what safety looks like to a multitude of people, because otherwise we are just coming in with this tunnel vision. And we're as white women, we're really good at tunnel vision. Like we are really good at looking and seeing like what works best for us. Like that is why so many of us are water carriers for the patriarchy, because we are close, we are close enough to be safe enough, right? Because even though Roe v. Wade is is going away, there's a lot of women that look like us that are still gonna have those abortions if they need them.

unknown 37:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

Yeah, and there again is that selfishness. And I feel very strongly, I do get on my soapbox of the toxic wellness culture that stays in their lane. I like that you said the tunnel vision, where on one level it is it's just a protective device. It's they don't feel capable to make change. There's this freeze response. Perhaps they have a lot of trauma in their upbringing or they were never allowed to be vocal and be themselves. And so, you know, part of what I feel the wellness community really needs to step up and into is do your damn work, do your healing work. Even if you don't know you need to be healed, you need healing. There's some healing in you that needs to happen. And especially as for people with privilege to do that healing work to then shift the narrative from I need to be safe to how can I throw out a safety net for others? How can I show up with a willingness to love and to care because I am safe enough and I won't lose everything by reaching out and extending a hand or by shifting my gaze instead of navel gazing into the world and helping the world. And so one of the conversations we had, it was just last week. I I loved it. You brought this whole new perspective for me that I didn't know about. So let's uh talk about this for a moment. And this is this difference between mutual aid and charity. Yeah. And how I sparked the conversation was I really feel a woman's strike is needed. And I think if women were just to not show up to work or withhold sex from their persons, that we could actually wield enough power to make great change in this society that is largely focusing on the needs of men. And so when we're 51% of the human race, actually step up and vocalize, hey, we need this, we need to be recognized, we need to uh heal our earth, we need whatever it might be, fill in the blank, we need good child care, we need good health care for our families, because most of the burden really is on the women, right? So if we were to strike, you know, could that even work? Was my question to you, Kristen, Kristen? And you were essentially like how your brain worked was well, first we need the safety net. You didn't say it in that word, in those words, but that's how I'm seeing it in this conversation. Will you talk a little bit about that? Because, and we don't have to get into politics too much unless we want to. Yeah. But the, yeah, this ability to, I think, I think it is really important. The ability to make change from where we're at from these, you know, not fully healed nervous systems, and we can do it. And yeah, mutual aid charity.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

So, so first of all, I am not an expert in mutual aid. It is something that I am currently researching and trying to find more about so I can be a part of it, a positive part of it, and not part part of the problem with charity is it it's a very top-down approach, right? There's this hierarchy of like, I've got what you need and I'm going to save you. And it's like very saviorism. And it's also part of the patriarchal system, right? Like charities wouldn't need to exist if a matriarchal system was in place because everybody would already be taken care of, right? That would just be how society would function. And so charities are a part of the patriarchal system because it already has those without, right? Like, and that's how the charities come in and they and and you know, they they give to those without. So it's a very top-down approach. Mutual aid is very level, like everybody is on the same level, everybody is on the same footing, and we are just coming together as a group to support each other. It is a very destructured, decentralized system of, hey, we are all here. We are all supporting each other, right? So Minnesota has been doing like a beautiful job of mutual aid with their ice rates, and they've been really supporting each other and they've been really coming together and taking shifts when when people are getting released from a the Whipple Whipple building. I forget the name of the building. They they have people waiting outside for them to bring them in into safety because they're just like releasing them in like 25-degree weather when it was snowing. And so people like people are there to like bring them in and like give them what they need. And there are already tons of mutual aid going on. And so we don't need to reinvent the wheel. We need to figure out how we plug into those mutual aids that are already going on and how we can bring our skills and bring our financial funding to these mutual aid projects so that we can strike. Because if we don't have the mutual aid, people that live day to day, right? We've got our waitresses, our baristas, our uh, you know, our people who clean our homes, right? All those people, if they go a day without wages, that's a huge, that's a huge impact into their financial livelihood. So we need to either come to the conclusion, and or either or, it doesn't have to, it can be, it could be both, come to the conclusion that not everyone is going to be able to strike, right? And so some of us like we do what we can when we can, and we need to come up with mutual aid so that if those women do want to strike, that they have the financial means to strike because like we are going to pay their bills for that month so that they can strike.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

I have a couple of uh couple of things that are coming up in my mind while as you're saying this, and it's along the lines of gardening. So when when I go out into my garden in spring and it's just this like unruly mess, and I try to do my whole garden, this like macro gardening, I get so overwhelmed and I almost move into a freeze state of like, I don't know, where am I gonna begin? And so a few years ago, I've just uh leaned into this concept of micro gardening. So just taking little segments, it's just how I've named it. I don't know if this is a technical term, but the little segments that then I could work on piece by piece to really manage that scenario so that it doesn't put me in overwhelm. And instead, it becomes almost like this life giving hobby that connects me to the earth, it soothes my system. Even though I'm busy, it helps me as a busy person who likes to work calm down. So, kind of in the yogic realm, it's it's meeting me where I'm at to bring me into that next best place, which is actually a little more relaxed. And so, what I'm hearing with the mutual aid and like this larger Minnesotan uh uh like I know they have many, many different mutual aids that are popping up, just like here in Asheville. So, Kristen and I were both in this experience of Helene when we had the major floods and we watched a bunch of mutual aid organizations pop up. A number of our friends actually started some. And what I remember at that time was, or even reflecting back just a year and a half later, people who are able to bring food, bring flowers, bring aid like water, medicine, or just show up and be hands to dig mud out of people's houses were working together with our community in a way that was moving the trauma out of the system. So people who showed up in their mess, in their like uh high stress, highly uh painful experience, it didn't get stuck in the nervous system. And so what I'm hearing from you, Kristen, is maybe the strike isn't a massive, maybe hopefully we do get a massive woman strike or a general strike. I mean, just to really name that. But, you know, if that doesn't happen, what about micro strikes? You know, what about, I know for myself in my own life, I put my foot down to someone treating me in a certain way, or I will vocalize the no, I'm not playing that game anymore, or let's shine a light on that toxic, fragile fucking ego that you're trying to present to me right now. These ways of standing up for ourselves are actually like mini strikes, where when we are speaking into it, can move the energy, can move that freeze, that overwhelm, even that need to fight because we're naming it. And I think if on a very practical level, if we're doing these mini strikes while also connecting to community larger strikes.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

Yeah. Yeah. That second part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the first part to me is very much the toxic mentality of the wellness community. Well, I'm just gonna radiate out love and light, and I'm just gonna stand in my power, and then that's gonna help ripple out change. Right. And I feel like a lot of people, a lot of people in the wellness community very much are like, I don't pay attention to politics because that that brings shadows onto my daily life, and I'm just trying to live a life of love. And and I think that really becomes a toxic culture because you're all that because that's me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Right. So, yes, do the micro strikes and also like also interact with your community, like like get into the community as well. Like, yes, practice your voice in micro strikes and then take what you've learned and use it for your community. Because if you just stop with you, then you're just stopping with you.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

There it is, and there's that selfishness and the freaking navel gazing. And it can be because of this subconscious driving desire for safety instead of love. So if that let's turn to community and reach out, let's frame that in the realm of a safety net, Kristen. So what if, okay, what if you have an awkward personality and you're just uncomfortable around other humans and yet, I don't know, you have uh funding capacity or uh you're very stable in your nervous system and you have a lot of love in you, and yet you're withholding that. So, I mean, many different scenarios for this. What if you could somehow throw it, throw out a safety net for you to then step into to be like, hey neighbor, what is it that you might need? Or let's just get to know each other. So, again, you're exposing your mind to different ways of thinking. Often it's right in our neighborhood, right? Yeah. I'm curious with your scope of clientele and again, just your experience and all of the books that you've read and watching the politics. I'm I'm really hoping Kristen's gonna run for, I don't, it's not city council. What would it be when you're way out in the rural area?

SPEAKER_02 48:28

It's called board is one of the ones I've thought about running for. I would I just but I I can't run while I why while I work in a school. While you work in the school, which is a whole nother issue. How can people who work in the schools not be part of decision making?

SPEAKER_03 48:43

But so that momentary side note of let's keep an eye on Kristen because whatever she's running for, we're gonna make sure that we vote for her. At least I am let's look once again at society. Modern society is actively being made aware of the toxic paradigms that have built up this, I would say this country is coming from America, but it's not just this country, it's the Western world. And we're looking at once again, white supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism, colonialism. And so when we are able to come back from this selfishness into how can we start to look outwards and connect into this world that is actively being shined a light on in its toxicity, and it's actively we're seeing crumbling, right? Where do we stand? How can we continue to feel safe and supported in a way that can cast our nets wider and wider? That's my I really feel like we are the most, and I learned this in Helene because what one person could do when they care, what one person can do is like I don't know, 100 generators of power for a house. Yeah, we can do so much if we just put our energy, we align our hearts and our mind and our willpower into that thing. And so if that is a safety net, if that's the stepping stone, what do you think? I mean, whatever comes to the top of your head of watching the world crumbling down, like what are ways that we can really feel that safety net hold us, but also bring us outward more? Like, not be the hiding little bugs in the house or under the rug, but like actually.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because it's so easy in this day and age to be to like shut down because it's so overwhelming. It's like every day you are flooded with and this is crumbling and this is going on and this is coming to light, and right, and oh my god, they took away this right, and they took away this right. So it's really easy to just be like, I'm just gonna put my head down and just like do what I need to do. And I I I I get that. And if too many of us do that, like the change will never actually come, right? The system will just cripple along with the way that it's working because there's not enough of us like tearing it down.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

I think that's what's happening, Kristen. I don't think enough of us are doing things.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Yeah, because it's scary. I don't know when the systems crumble, I don't know what I will lose. Right? So there's I think there's a lot of us that think, yes, I I see that new world over there and I want to be part of that world. But between here and there, I don't know what will happen to me in between here and there. And so I'm gonna stay with the enemy I know instead of like the enemy I don't know that's the path along the way to to the to whatever is coming.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

Oh, you said that so clearly. Thank you for naming it in that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

Yeah. I mean, which I mean it it makes sense, right? And and like back to like our discussion about like how white women are water carriers for the patriarchy, because they are safe enough, right? Like they still have their housing and their medical and and all the things for them. They don't know what it's gonna look like over there, and a lot of them don't trust that it's better.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

And so I think it's really hard for a lot of us, and I mean, I'm gonna name it myself. I'm not doing as much as I could because I am scared, one, that I don't have what it takes, right? The imposter syndrome I think is is real with a lot of us. And two, like, I don't know where to put my energy because there are so many places to put your energy and so many, and I can't do them all. So, like, I have to pick. And so sometimes I get I freeze because there are too many choices, and so I'm like, I don't know which one to go for, so I'm just not gonna go for anything, right? And then I also make excuses for myself. I work in a school system, and so I use the excuse of I already do enough every day working in the school system, so like I don't need to do much else outside of the school system, which is a big load of crap that I am holding myself accountable to because it's scary to think about adding more labor to my plate.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

I, as your friend and just witness to what you just said, I want to make it very clear to all the listeners, I think you are on the front lines of doing so much work for change and being in years in a very toxic paradigm called the public school system that is so rigid in structure and does not support the teachers or the counselors or the students to thrive, that you being the voice of change in the Bible belt, where there's a lot of conservatives that don't want any change, along with being right there with all of the children that have the families that are being taken by ice, and not just this year, but for many years you've been dealing with this, along with the suicidal tendencies of a lot of these children and having to deal with the actual suicides and the healing and repair and the prevention of you are one of our frontline people. And I feel this could be shining the light on also this like the burden that a lot of us hold as overachievers of we aren't doing enough. And I I think that if people who really truly were not doing enough actually stepped up to the plate a little bit more, maybe that burden would be lessened on us, right? And I'm I I say us when I'm not doing what you're doing. So, you know, like you and the people that are in your field, I just I understand the level of exhaustion and fatigue that you come home with and how just nourishing yourselves, just making sure that you're getting a good night's rest so that you can do it again the next day, and then hopefully have some downtime on the weekend so you can build your capacity to do it again for another week, so you can have time in the summer, so you can do it again for another freaking year. And it's like crawling into the system that is so toxic and so unhelpful. And so maybe for all of us listening, it may be that we're hearing parts of where we can help a scenario, right? And I think that that overrides imposter syndrome when we're coming back to our little Batman self that we showed up in second grade wearing the costume. If we come in with this, like, well, wait a minute, I have this skill set and maybe I can offer that as the safety net for this person and create my little mini strike, my little micro strike here in this community to support that person. And I got her back. It's almost like this like widening net of a potluck or uh, you know, it's coming back to tribalism, you know, led by the the caring of what a matriarchal culture would lead through. Last way there's an honor. I see you and I do feel you're doing a lot of work. Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

I think first, yes, like every everybody has something they can contribute. And I think first step is to find the mutual aids that already exist in your community and not try to reinvent the wheel. And also, as white women, be very careful about your white saviorism and be very mindful that you're not coming in and like being like, I've got all the answers and I'm gonna rescue these people. And I right, like I think we have to be really careful to like, yes, put aside the imposter syndrome, and also at the same time check your white saviorism.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and I want to, I think that could actually could be highlighted. We could talk a little bit about white saviorism just so people understand a little more of what that could be, so that that that's not a blind spot. And let's just bookmark that just for a moment. The what the comment that you said of this new world that we're all trying to dream, you don't also know what the crumbling is going to take away. And, you know, as you were saying that, you know, people with privilege with this and that and this and that, I'm just thinking, like, okay, we've just gotten a taste of it. We no longer have health care, we cannot afford it. So we have no insurance. And, you know, being 50, that's pretty hardcore. So it's just like, okay, when will we ever have health care or will we, you know, it could be one illness that could put us into bankruptcy, which is really freaking scary. So, you know, what are ways that we can mitigate the danger while also throwing out the safety nets in a togetherness? This is a we thing. Like we, I think right there, if we were to feel that we were trying to fix something specifically for another person, there is putting us into that charity mindset. But like you're saying, that mutual aid, what I hear with mutual aid is it's empowering. Let's go to this mutual aid because we want together in our communities in a way that if anything is breaking down, this person over there has chickens. Uh, we just got shiitake logs, I'm super excited about, right? So, this other person, I had two neighbors, uh, one that lived in Africa for many years, and he can literally build anything out of scraps. Another one who is just a like a general contractor and like knows water systems. So finding the ways to connect in a way that we feel that we are equal, you know, we're we're equal to all people and even the wildlife and yeah, so white saviorism. Let's talk a little bit about that. Will you will you uh sh uh shine a little light on that one?

SPEAKER_02 59:25

Yeah, so in this oppressive system that we live in, capitalism has created a class of people that have a lot less than, right? And there is a group of us, and I I call it white saviorism because it tends to be white people. There is a group of us that like to swoop in and save them. Like on the extreme end, think of like missionaries who go into Africa and they're like, I'm going to save these people by introducing them to Jesus Christ, and I'm going to save their souls when really what they actually need is clean water. They don't need Bibles, they don't need to be preached at, but but I have my ideas of what this person needs, and I'm going to give these needs to this person, my ideas of what this person needs, right? Based on my beliefs, based on my privilege, based on my morals, I'm going to give them what I think they need. This a lot of this happens in working in a school, a lot of this happens in schools. Lots of people call up and be like, we have people donate backpacks every year. And like they will put school supplies in the backpacks every year. And every year, I'm like, can you just donate backpacks? We don't need, we don't need, we don't use rulers anymore. We don't use this, like they all these things that that that that they donate, but it feels good to them. They really enjoy walking around the table and putting in the paper and putting in the crayons and put right because it feels good to them. They're not thinking about what the school actually needs. And and I want to say too, I'm grateful for every backpack we get. I'm grateful for every school supply we get. We will never say no to any of that stuff. And I would love to see people come to the schools and be like, what do you need?

unknown 1:01:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Not like, here, I think you need this. And so, what saviorism is that mindset? I think you need this based on my beliefs, based on my morals, based on my privilege. So I'm going to give you this.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

Oh, Kristen, I saw that again and again with Helene. So I was a first responder and going and helping people put up these hot tents that could live, you know, in four seasons. And I would be on site where, first of all, you drive up on the site and there are mounds, just piles of shit, where people have come and donated things, and they didn't even really look to see. There aren't any coolers, there aren't any refrigerators, there aren't any storage bins for all of these clothes that they've just donated, which are mostly used, all the different shoe sizes and the mismatched gloves. Like they literally just dumped their shit onto these poor people that were already like, and I mean like poor suffering people because it it was indiscriminate, the the wealth status and the cultural background of the people that were affected. Yeah, for one way of looking at it, but definitely that the poor were hit the hardest because of zoning and planning of the city. I just felt repulsed because I would be there and I would watch people coming with their vans and dumping more stuff on those piles.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

Because it felt good to them, because they were like, Look what I did. I did a good thing. Somebody clap for me. Where's my sticker?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

Oh my gosh. And while the people themselves are frozen, and so I would have to help bring in, we would just find teams to be like, okay, we got to cart away this stuff. And then we had it was like it was systemic to our whole community and all of the little blossoming towns around where every single uh drop-off point was overburdened with textiles. We we became like this textile dump and Bibles, a lot of Bibles. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

So what a what a deep conversation, Kristen. Thank you so much for everything that we have explored. And I know that you are very well read. I usually love to ask, like, what are you reading right now, or if there are any books that are inspiring that you feel could maybe help us during these times, or from this conversation that we had, if there's anything that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

Okay. I just I do have one thing to say. So earlier you had said that there's a place in the Bay Area where students go to commit suicide.

unknown 1:03:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

So we are changing that language because you commit crimes. And so when somebody takes their own life, we say they die by suicide.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

Okay. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

Just just just wanted to spread the change in language so that we don't put the onus on the person that took their life, that we don't think of suicide as a crime. As a crime. It is a call for help and it is a failure on society's part. And it is usually, you know, they died by mental health.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

Yeah, yeah, especially so young. I have I come from a very strange family that by choice at a certain age, usually in their 90s, they choose suicide to not be a burden on their family instead of going into nursing homes. And I I think I'm fine with that. I'm like, because they usually make it known and then they just do it at their like you know, years before, and then they just do it quietly. And yeah, yeah, to to make that a crime. Yeah, it's disempowering. And thank you for that. But I'm all about empowering.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

Yeah. So I know I I don't know how many of because I I think you require this book for your classes, but My Grandmother's Hands by Resma Menicum is always a must-read book. I feel like every single human alive should read that book. And then Breeding Sweetgrass is the other one as well. Okay. Um and I just want to share this quote. I hope I can get it right, by Apprentice Hemphill. Shouting self-care at people who need community care is how we fail each other. I love that. Mm-hmm. One of my favorite quotes.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:46

Apprentice Hempel. Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

Shouting self-care to people who need community care is how we is how we I think it's it's it's how we fail or how we fail each other, or I don't remember. Remember the exact words, but I mean you could if you if you type that in, shouting self-care at people who need community care is how we fail.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:08

Yeah. And so I'd like to speak directly into the wellness community hearing this one because often people who are by nature wanting things to be harmonious, either they go right to community care and they don't do their self-care, you know, tending to others, caring for others while they're still a hot mess, or there's the obsession of self-care. And again, it turns navel gazing and you forget to turn outwards. It's a continuously reciprocal avenue. So we have to look both ways. Yeah. And I think that that that might be the safety net that the the safety net is inclusive of others. It's not just for you. And so, in what ways can you and your little micro strike start to expand your safety net? My from for me, I'm doing walks two or three times a day in my neighborhood, and I'm talking to every neighbor I see, you know, getting to know like the the little limping dog whose paw's gone numb. I've started to make that uh that doggy owner's Una, it's her name, Hypericum Sab and Hypericum Pellets to like we're you know, to like listening to the woe of this and that, and then the celebration of the the wedding that's happening to the neighbors on the corner. I mean, it's just little, I think, little things that can bring us out of that kind of hiding and tending to our own safety bubbles into widening the safety nuts for others.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

Yeah, you gotta start somewhere. And so if you start small and then just step by step, that's how we have to take it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:49

Thank you so much, Kristen. Look forward to speaking with you again. Okay, have a good day. Much love. Bye bye.