Expression by Design with Mike Forfia

New York City-based Mike Forfia is a musician, a teacher and career adviser, and a design thinker. While seemingly very different, these jobs have one thing  in common: they all fascinate him in one way or another. Besides that, as a bass player, "The role I'm usually playing is to make sure everyone around me has what they need," he says. In all his various roles, he supports others, and enjoys doing it.

In this interview, he talks about the many aspects of his career, including his performing life and previous gigs on cruise ships and in the South Pacific; his current job as music director at Citylight Church in Astoria, Queens; and the work he did while pursuing his master's degree in jazz and contemporary media at the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, N.Y.

At the end of the episode, you'll hear “When The Blues Leave” and “Beautiful Love" from the album “Mike Forfia: Live with Friends 2017.”

For more, visit https://www.mikeforfia.com/.

This is Kate Jones. Thank you for listening to The Gale Hill Radio Hour!

The show is available in Apple and Google Podcasts, Spotify and other podcast directories. Also on Substack and YouTube; Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Transcript

00:00:17:10 - 00:00:34:16
Kate
Hello and welcome to the Gail Hill Radio Hour. I'm your host, Kate Jones, and I have the pleasure today of interviewing Mike for film. A musician, a teacher and career advisor and a design thinker. Mike, thanks for being on the show.

00:00:35:07 - 00:00:36:19
Mike
Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

00:00:37:13 - 00:00:49:20
Kate
You played the bass and obviously you do a whole lot more if you had to give an overview of your career. How would you describe the path you've taken to where you are now?

00:00:50:21 - 00:00:58:17
Mike
Sure. Sure. Yeah, I that's a question I'm asking myself a lot, actually. Okay. Yeah. What is the through line for a lot of these different things?

00:00:58:19 - 00:00:59:12
Kate
Right. And I.

00:00:59:12 - 00:01:00:03
Mike
Would actually say.

00:01:00:05 - 00:01:04:15
Kate
We ask ourselves you know, at different times lives. I think it's a good life.

00:01:05:09 - 00:01:27:07
Mike
And as a career advisor, I could actually also point to research that says, well, I'm 32 and 32 is whether you start really fired up in one direction or you kind of meander for a while and find clarity. 30, 32 is usually one of those cross crossing points but I'll say that what I'm finding is actually very related to playing the bass.

00:01:27:07 - 00:01:51:09
Mike
But I would say that it's more related to the role of the bass because the bass is an instrument and a role in the role. Oftentimes of that bass is support and clarity and foundation. So whether I'm talking to people about their careers or whether I'm music directing or playing the bass, or I also play guitar and, and sing or I do event production.

00:01:51:13 - 00:02:22:20
Mike
There's a few, few different things, but I think the role that I'm usually playing is trying to make sure that the people around me have what they need are supported that we're aligned in the goals and the work that we're doing. And I try to facilitate interesting, difficult There's any number of adjectives, but try to facilitate conversation and space for exploration.

00:02:22:20 - 00:03:03:16
Mike
Ron Carter talks about what he did with Miles Davis group as chemistry, and they had controlled explosions, and that's how he was working from the role of the bass. But I think that whether it's talking to somebody about what they want to do with their career or how they're going to prepare for this thing, or if I'm music director, anything, anything like that, it's this willingness to deal with tension and release and protect a particular focus on engaging people with that that in mind, that tension is a very natural part of this release, is a very natural part of this conversation and interplay and that's anyway, that's where I'm at right now.

00:03:03:16 - 00:03:06:10
Mike
I'm still like, I'm asking my self that question a lot.

00:03:06:14 - 00:03:26:03
Kate
Sure. And it sounds good so far. You know, that whole exploration that and and that there is this that there is this thread throughout everything that you do because on, you know, maybe on the surface it seems that they're not that related, but they sure are sure.

00:03:26:03 - 00:03:48:20
Mike
I mean, one, the the main thing that connects them all is that I find them fascinating and I want to be great at them, you know? And so I don't sometimes it's not all that beneficial for me to try to understand why is this all related if it's enough just to say, I'm fascinated by this, I want to spend my time on it, I want to explore it, I want to be excellent at it.

00:03:48:20 - 00:04:01:02
Mike
I want to engage other people who I find fascinating in this. And sometimes that's in music and sometimes that's in leadership development or what have you.

00:04:01:11 - 00:04:17:09
Kate
Sure. And fascination is its own interrelated thing. So I like that very much. It's a good it's a good thread, no matter what. So you're the music director for City Light Church in Astoria, New York. What do you do in this role?

00:04:18:02 - 00:04:49:23
Mike
Yeah, so that's let's see. The very first responsibility that I do is the musical role that I play. You know, I play the bass sometimes. I play the guitar, I'm acoustic or electric. I sing background vocals, I run. We do a fair amount of songs where we use tracks and click track. So I'll I'll be cueing the various auxiliary sounds that we have prerecorded that we use to amplify our performance.

00:04:49:23 - 00:05:14:00
Mike
And I'll be I have a talk back microphones if we need to in the midst of a performance, make some changes or I'll be the person just making the call or deciding and making sure that everybody else is on the same board. You know, starting and stopping the songs. The basic the basics of music director for me are the musical roles, which there's about four or five that I play each Sunday.

00:05:14:15 - 00:05:53:00
Mike
And then outside of the actual performance of the music that we're doing for worship in that setting, there's a number of strategic roles and people oriented roles. So helping people to understand what what they do and where they fit in the process of this large team that makes this thing run, and then also finding ways to deliberately engage people in the various interests they have or the strengths that they're trying to develop, meet them where they are and, and, and see what we could do to amplify their own path.

00:05:53:00 - 00:06:31:04
Mike
So there's a there's a personnel development, professional development part of this which a lot of that is also translating between people who are fully professional in what they do, and they're providing a service in that setting and people who are longtime members of the church and, and would be considered amateur in what they do, but come to the team with a vocal ability or an ability at the piano or a guitar, drums and or live sound or media or anything like that and finding ways to help them to strive for excellence and grow and be a part of that as well.

00:06:31:07 - 00:06:33:13
Kate
And melding the whole thing together.

00:06:33:16 - 00:06:53:13
Mike
Exactly. That's again, my, my, my through line in a lot of ways is is communication trying to just pursue excellence with the people that are there and find ways. I do a lot of translating between, well, this person only reads in this person has always played by ear and this person's playing with a cable. So they're in this key, but that person's playing.

00:06:54:00 - 00:07:02:08
Mike
So they're in this key and finding the, the, the simplest way and most efficient way to facilitate communication.

00:07:02:14 - 00:07:04:01
Kate
Oh, is this a big church?

00:07:05:00 - 00:07:10:01
Mike
It is. I mean, big is relative you know, I would say that.

00:07:10:13 - 00:07:19:02
Kate
It's not a megachurch. It's right. Yeah. The a large church for a regular church. I don't know. I'm just kind of trying to draw it.

00:07:19:11 - 00:07:43:05
Mike
Point by point of reference. There's, you know, where I'm from in Akron, there are churches of 10,000 people which would be considered a megachurch. I think that the membership at the church at City like I believe is around 700 people, which for New York is right sort of in the middle there. There are larger churches here, but there are a lot of church plants here, small churches here.

00:07:43:05 - 00:08:20:11
Mike
It's such a vast and dense place with so many different cultures, especially there. There are a lot of different sized churches. But this church had three locations before the pandemic I met them in April of 20, 20 when they started recording services and when they went back in-person in August of 2020 they opened one location back up in there, about one location with some remote congregants who are still a ways away from Astoria in Manhattan or in Brooklyn.

00:08:21:12 - 00:08:29:08
Mike
And then we did two through two services. And I think there's usually between 300 to 400 people total that come through there on a Sunday.

00:08:29:13 - 00:08:31:20
Kate
Wow. Pretty good, pretty good crowd.

00:08:32:19 - 00:08:33:01
Mike
Yeah.

00:08:33:15 - 00:08:45:20
Kate
So you're also a performing artist. How often are you on stage? Has it really changed because of the pandemic or what? What what is your performing life like?

00:08:47:11 - 00:09:15:12
Mike
Certainly, yeah. How often is a question? I get a lot and some how it's the hardest one. It's not exactly how I think about it, but this week, for example, I think I have three or four gigs, which by some measures is is a lot slower than it might be in July, but also for February is is pretty normal, if not a little bit more than I would expect when you know, it's 15 degrees outside.

00:09:16:10 - 00:09:49:12
Mike
And then with the pandemic specifically that's been you know vicissitudes that's been things are everything's shut down but now everything's live streaming. So I was I was actually one of the people I was very fortunate to to be performing, to be recording, to be releasing things with other artists through the entire pandemic. You know, my mom started mailing me masks and and then we figured out protocols and we learned all this stuff.

00:09:49:12 - 00:10:15:02
Mike
But through the entire thing, I basically I was at home March and half of April of 20, 20, and then I was out three or four times a week and testing regularly. And I've been performing consistently since then. But things that the environment has changed, that we're back in the clouds, we're back in the concert halls, not fully back.

00:10:15:12 - 00:10:39:12
Mike
In fact, I think they're saying of the people who buy tickets, they're expecting about 75 to 80% to actually show up. These are people who already made a decision to come and then the day off, for whatever reason, may decide not to or may be unable to. But it's for me, I've been active the whole the whole time recording, live streaming or now back to live performances.

00:10:39:12 - 00:10:42:21
Mike
Looking at some festivals coming up now.

00:10:42:23 - 00:10:43:13
Kate
That's great.

00:10:43:13 - 00:10:44:06
Mike
And the fingers.

00:10:44:11 - 00:10:56:21
Kate
Yes, it it'll happen. Yeah, probably. Well, don't you think that, you know, just people are super comfortable being outdoors and yeah.

00:10:57:15 - 00:11:12:09
Mike
Even still there's a lot there's a lot that goes into that. And I would say that I'm not it's not that I don't care about forecasting and think about all this, but on a very practical level I, I see these things and I think this would be great if it happens, I'll really look forward to it if it can happen.

00:11:12:17 - 00:11:34:18
Mike
Even I did a performance in Ohio the day after Thanksgiving, which is I think how we were acquainted. And even with that up until the day before, I said, well, you know, if this goes off, it's going to be great. But it's, it's kind of all of this, I think is subject to change. Right? I think there's a there's a greater awareness of that.

00:11:34:18 - 00:11:44:01
Mike
So I think it could and I think that there's ways that can happen and there's a lot of ways that it couldn't. Right. Which is allowed for some me to be a little more in the moment.

00:11:44:10 - 00:11:59:01
Kate
Yes. Which is a good way to be not to anticipate something and then get disappointed about it. So if you don't mind, let's talk about your background a bit and what and what led you to where you are today.

00:12:00:09 - 00:12:20:01
Mike
Sure, sure. Well, I'm from Akron, Ohio, proudly from Akron, Ohio. I was I have friends here in Brooklyn, have known me a while. And and it's a running joke that I just talk about Akron constantly. They they say that I talk about I rep Akron the way someone from Brooklyn raps. Brooklyn, huh? You know, that's that's a lot.

00:12:20:04 - 00:12:51:16
Mike
That's a big deal here. Yeah. Yeah. They're they kind of tease me about it, too, but I'm I'm very proudly from Akron. And I, I grew up in West Akron, went to Akron public schools, went to the University of Akron. And my first four or five or six jobs, I don't even know where in Akron. So all of what I do now, some of the seeds were planted there, even the sort of team building and event production and that sort of things.

00:12:51:16 - 00:13:20:19
Mike
I was I was an usher at D.J. Thomas Hall. I was I basically contracted all the music for private events at the Akron Art Museum for several years. And even some of the things that aren't necessarily performance. I worked at the summit when I was 15, and then the last work I did with them, I think I was 25 so over the course of ten years, I did a lot of different things in radio through the summer.

00:13:21:03 - 00:13:50:04
Mike
So that's that was there. I went to school there and so I was 22 I by that point I was gigging out of town regularly and I ended up not really living anywhere until I was almost 25 again. When I, when I went to grad school at Eastman because I was, I would spend some time in Michigan and then the South Pacific and then the Boston area and the New York area for four gigs and nowhere longer than four or five weeks at a time.

00:13:51:01 - 00:13:55:11
Kate
Huh. The South Pacific, where did you do where and what did you do?

00:13:55:23 - 00:14:17:00
Mike
Yeah, that was a that was a trio contract on a, on a ship. I paid for college partially by working on cruise ships. And then after college I took one of these somewhat longer, long as all relatives there are people who go out and they work for a year at a time on cruise ships. But I had always done anything from two weeks to five weeks.

00:14:17:00 - 00:14:38:07
Mike
And then in 2013, I went out for three months, four months, I think. And and we were based out of Sydney, Australia, and we, I was with this trio and we would play all over New Zealand, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, Australia and Fiji.

00:14:38:18 - 00:14:39:18
Kate
Oh my.

00:14:39:20 - 00:14:44:02
Mike
That was a nice way to spend our winter in their summer No kidding.

00:14:44:10 - 00:14:57:10
Kate
Wow. And how fascinating is that talk about being fascinated by something. You know, they go to go there and see, see a part of the world that I don't know. Had you ever been in that part of the world before.

00:14:57:10 - 00:15:21:19
Mike
And never been to that part of the world? In fact, if it weren't for cruise ships and working in that capacity, I, I would have done significantly less traveling. It's always funny to, to, to talk about it, though, because when when you're on the other side of the hospitality industry, you know, it's funny. It's it is it's exactly that.

00:15:21:19 - 00:15:55:19
Mike
It's beautiful, it's inspiring, it's fascinating. And it's also hospitality is one of the hardest industries even as a musician. It was funny because we worked technically less than anybody else and we got paid better. So was sort of this inverted reality from from freelancing. Stay here in New York City but also it's a it's a hard industry. And my you know, they would say your first job is is safety and your second job is whatever you got hired to do.

00:15:56:02 - 00:16:15:16
Mike
That was when I worked on other ships. This one was a guest entertainer contract. But I remember several contracts where most of the people on this ship were sick and we were doing very unglamorous work that you would never think you were doing. So, yeah, it is. It's it's all of those things. And it's in a way, it's kind of similar to here.

00:16:15:16 - 00:16:32:23
Mike
People think about New York and like, oh, it's so amazing. It's so be it. I'm like, it's so expensive, it's dirty, it's so loud, but it's also vibrant. And it's also yeah, it was it was a it was a great thing to do when I was 19 to 23. I'm glad I did it then.

00:16:33:07 - 00:16:53:15
Kate
No kidding. How oh well what an experience that you had. That's terrific. Well then you went to Eastman, right? And during that time you were a graduate teaching assistant. And I just wonder, is that about the time you discovered a passion for teaching.

00:16:55:09 - 00:17:27:07
Mike
It's definitely a time where I learned I was able to apply a lot of language and concepts and philosophy to things that I had already been introduced to in certain ways. I had I had great teachers in Northeast Ohio and also American music, black American music, jazz, R&B, gospel music. A lot of the things I care deeply about are rooted in a tradition of mentorship.

00:17:27:07 - 00:17:52:09
Mike
And, you know, you you have so you give and you know, you come up in a more apprentice ship type of way. There's models of that in other kinds of music. But it is it is part of the culture of a lot of these musics to share what you have and to bring people along. So I had started to teach when I was 15 and had only been playing the bass for a year.

00:17:53:07 - 00:18:14:01
Mike
And I had this much and I could give that to certain people. I had a there's a there's a performer around Akron now who was a student. I started because he was the little brother in the Big Brothers program of my boss at the summit. So I had started I had been teaching for a while and I had great teachers and I had a lot of value to that.

00:18:14:01 - 00:18:39:04
Mike
But when I went to Eastman, I really found ways to talk about things that I had cared about, and I found ways to I learned about pedagogy and I learned about concepts and, and certain language and things that I thought to be very strong and true and appropriate to what I was teaching rather than other valid methods that were ones that I adopted.

00:18:39:12 - 00:18:55:05
Kate
Okay. So you also worked as programing director and producer of the Jazz at Eastman Weekly podcast, and I just curious how that came about. If you had had podcast experience before that, what appealed to you?

00:18:55:06 - 00:19:21:06
Mike
Yeah. So this is another one of those things that kind of just naturally evolved out of some work I was I was going to Eastman. I was looking for a way to make it a little bit more affordable. And I and I had mentioned at one point that you know, I, I had worked in radio, I worked at WFTS, the summit, and by the time I was going to Eastman, I had been there on and off or in certain capacities for about eight years.

00:19:22:00 - 00:19:46:08
Mike
And when I mentioned that, they said, Oh, we have this radio show which they had had for a year, but they didn't know how to do it. They had a they had a radio show, but they didn't have a microphone. Oh, they didn't have an editing console. They didn't have a host. They didn't have a programing schedule or any guests lined up.

00:19:46:21 - 00:20:11:21
Mike
But what they did have is they have at Sibley Library. They have, I think, the second largest music library in North America after the Library of Congress. It's the second largest collegiate music library after Oxford. It's they just have this huge resource of recordings, a lot of which is live and you would never hear anywhere else. And they wanted to share it with the world.

00:20:11:21 - 00:20:33:12
Mike
And they had a history, a long history of of radio there. So they had a vision for it. And so what I did during my time there was I helped to just build the studio and to build a model that could work after I was gone, one of the first things that came up was, okay, we had a student start this and had the vision for it and they did that.

00:20:33:20 - 00:21:00:00
Mike
But now that student's gone and we want to keep doing this for years. To come. So we, we decided on a host and we found a dedicated space where we could interview and we could also produce. And we got the software and we got the a general schedule set up. And then we, we put out 26 episodes and I left and it and it's actually still happening now, which I'm really proud of.

00:21:00:12 - 00:21:01:11
Mike
There's been different.

00:21:01:12 - 00:21:13:21
Kate
Oh, cool. Mike. Oh my gosh, what a service you provided, you know, for really the world. I guess anybody could tune in and, and hear, hear these amazing recordings. Is that right?

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:44:07
Mike
Yeah, it was, it was broadcast on they had a partnership with terrestrial radio stations at the time. Yeah. In the area there. And then the agreement was that they could also locally post it. So I think they're still working out the ins and outs of how they want to distribute, but they've continued to produce it. And the idea is exactly that just to make these stories and these recordings accessible to a greater audience and to spread that music.

00:21:44:12 - 00:21:59:14
Kate
Because that would be amazing. And in the directories, I would think, you know, just, you know, Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever, you know, and just to get, you know, to have a greater universe for all those great recordings.

00:22:00:04 - 00:22:08:12
Mike
Right. And that's just constantly the battle that they're trying to fight there. They have I mean, just an unconscionable archive and.

00:22:09:16 - 00:22:12:16
Kate
Treasure, but it's also a bit of a burden. What are you.

00:22:12:19 - 00:22:39:20
Mike
Well, yeah, I mean, it's it takes a lot of intention and a lot of people and some very deliberate priorities to get that out there. I mean, I remember we acquired one archive while I was there that they had tried to get ten years earlier. It was like 20,000 records and a decade of very personal interviews that had been done in Rochester by a host named Wil Moyal.

00:22:40:11 - 00:22:58:19
Mike
And it's like he has 16 episodes on Duke Ellington and they're with people from Ellington's band who tell the story from first person. And they would, he would just have them over to the house. They would put on some records and have a couple of drinks and just talk all night and record it. And he'd produce them into these Hour-Long episodes.

00:22:59:02 - 00:23:22:19
Mike
And so we acquired that during my time there. And the only reason they could do it is because they had just hired a new archivist. And even still with a lot of work that's gone into that, it's not ready to to come out. It's a lot of work to digitize, to find, make sure that the legal T's are crossed and I's are dotted or whatever it is to to make this accessible.

00:23:22:19 - 00:23:26:08
Mike
And it was it was inspiring to be a part of it.

00:23:26:09 - 00:23:31:15
Kate
Oh, I'm sure. What a terrific what a treasure trove. That is.

00:23:31:17 - 00:23:32:11
Mike
Absolutely.

00:23:32:16 - 00:23:43:05
Kate
Incredible. So you had yet another thing that you did well, at least, and you had a busy couple of years besides, you know, getting your masters. Was that your masters that you.

00:23:43:06 - 00:23:44:07
Mike
That was my master's degree.

00:23:44:07 - 00:24:14:19
Kate
Okay. Besides getting your degree, you had a university health service internship at the University of Rochester. Esther, and you advised students there and everything. So what? And they had something called the Keys to Healthy Music Weekly Class. I, you know, and so I just wondered if so you've been kind of an advisor for since you were what? You know, you were a teacher and advisor even when you were 15.

00:24:14:19 - 00:24:24:07
Kate
But I just wondered, you know, if you really deepened that enjoyment at that time doing these things with these these students Sure.

00:24:24:07 - 00:24:37:11
Mike
I have a confession. I did work there and there was an advisory capacity to it. But that word advisors specifically was put on that bullet of that job when I was applying for an advisor position at the new school level.

00:24:37:11 - 00:24:38:10
Kate
Oh, okay.

00:24:38:13 - 00:25:01:07
Mike
So that was that's a bit of a tactic for, for the job interview. But it wasn't, it wasn't false to do that. That role was a lot of different things. It was the first thing was to assist with that weekly class, which is where there was directly one on one and group work with other students, although that was very much pure.

00:25:01:15 - 00:25:24:14
Mike
Like I'm working on these things so that I can play the bass into my eighties and you're working on these things so that you can also avoid injury. But I'm not a physical therapist and these are physical therapists here, but some of these were very common strategies. And so we would there was a class that was already established over the years and I helped to teach that class.

00:25:24:14 - 00:25:49:06
Mike
I helped to transfer it into an online form. So they when the pandemic happened, they were actually already ahead of the game because we had been trying to make these resources available. And then I also held ours in. They had a physical therapy clinic and in the dorm so I would work there and assist with the day to day of the physical therapy clinic at the dorm.

00:25:49:09 - 00:25:51:11
Kate
It's like wellness for musicians.

00:25:51:16 - 00:26:26:19
Mike
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, we looked at it like we're we're small muscle athletes and it requires the same amount of care and attention and intentionality. And to manage the muscles in your hands and your fingers and your shoulders and your neck and and it requires the same amount of care towards your mental well-being and your and your diet and all of these things to be able to perform consistently over decades, as you would think of with another kind of athlete.

00:26:27:04 - 00:26:35:08
Kate
Right. So do you remember these these tips and these strategies and do you follow them?

00:26:36:09 - 00:26:40:14
Mike
Oh, yeah. Knowing what to do and doing it are two different things right now.

00:26:40:16 - 00:26:41:08
Kate
I know that.

00:26:41:17 - 00:26:57:00
Mike
Sometimes, right? I'm actually it's funny enough, while we were one of my fidgets, while we're talking right now, I have one of the things. This is an acupressure ring that I'm in. I go over with my fingers and there are there are some things, daily practices that I that I do. I carry a bouncy ball. I carry an acupressure ring.

00:26:57:00 - 00:27:18:13
Mike
And I usually have a some sort of rubber band around my wrists so that I can do my sort of daily maintenance. And then there are bigger picture things just in general. I play baseball with the musicians, baseball league because I need to be connected socially because I need to move and get out. And I do a lot of these things.

00:27:18:13 - 00:27:41:19
Mike
My my bare maintenance has gotten a lot better over the years. And then there's still larger check ins that we need to do sometimes. But I've been injury free for since I was 18. I had a I had a big injury when I was 18, which is what got me interested in this. I went to the Crystal Clinic and Ohio and everything else since then has been minor adjustments.

00:27:42:16 - 00:27:54:09
Kate
Wow. That's that's excellent. You know, because especially if you want to you want to be in this for the long haul, you want you know, you want to be in your best possible form.

00:27:55:01 - 00:28:03:09
Mike
I agree. And I think that a lot of wellness is exactly that. It's just choosing something more sustainable over something maybe more immediately satisfying.

00:28:03:12 - 00:28:11:05
Kate
That's absolutely right. And you can keep enjoying yourself for longer. You know, all the way through, you know, to whenever.

00:28:11:17 - 00:28:12:01
Mike
Right.

00:28:12:03 - 00:28:17:18
Kate
In your life. So. So how did you get to New York City or the New York City area? What brought you there?

00:28:18:06 - 00:28:35:18
Mike
Yeah, well, I had been coming up here since I was 18. I first went on a band trip with Firestone High School, and when everybody else went to see Lion King which I'm sure I would have loved, one of the parents took a few of us, got permission to take a few of us to Birdland Jazz Club and.

00:28:35:18 - 00:28:36:16
Mike
Oh, wow.

00:28:36:17 - 00:28:38:23
Kate
And it isn't how fast.

00:28:38:23 - 00:29:06:23
Mike
So I started coming up here with friends on solo trips. When Megabus first came around, I got a $1 ticket from Pittsburgh to New York, and and so by the time I was getting done with grad school at 26, I was really kind of wondering if this was somewhere I wanted to go. And I found out about a grant opportunity, and I found somebody in New York who I had played with and interviewed on that radio show that I would love to continue learning from.

00:29:07:11 - 00:29:30:10
Mike
And I got a grant from ESPN The Arts Leadership Program. It was a one year fellowship to work with Ike Sturm at the first Church of Jazz at St Peter's Lutheran Church. So my first year here was actually to honor the requirements of a grant from Eastman and to work in a music ministry in Midtown.

00:29:30:20 - 00:29:34:01
Kate
And it was, as you said, of the First Church of Jazz.

00:29:34:02 - 00:29:53:03
Mike
Yeah, yeah. It's it's, you know, it's sort of a I'm not sure exactly where that moniker came from, but it's a Lutheran church. It's been in the city for over 150 years. And but in the sixties they had a pastor who was very well connected to the jazz community and understood a lot of the challenges that they were going through, especially in the early sixties.

00:29:53:18 - 00:30:19:17
Mike
And he would just go out and help them pay their bills. He would go out and help them get some food. And they started coming to his services and they'd say, Well, you know, let me play, let me pay you back somehow. And for over 50 years there's been a 5:00 jazz vespers service at St Peter's Church. It was formalized in early 2000 with a music director for that role.

00:30:19:17 - 00:30:49:07
Mike
Once the pastors who were over that had had retired and yeah, so there's, I mean there are a number of churches here who serve very specific communities and there are a number of places where they incorporate jazz. But this, this church very much became a haven for jazz, the jazz community in a tough time and has been this the site of a lot of healing.

00:30:49:07 - 00:31:01:19
Mike
It's where they had John Coltrane's memorial. That's where they had Thelonious Monk's Memorial. Duke Ellington performed one of his sacred concerts there when Billy Strayhorn died he donated his piano, which is the piano in the sanctuary.

00:31:02:03 - 00:31:17:22
Kate
Oh, my goodness. What a marvelous tradition. You know, and and it started with all good you know, helping a of an important part of the community. That is that's wonderful. Love that story. So you went from there. And what happened.

00:31:18:17 - 00:31:40:03
Mike
Yeah. So after a year there, which is my first year in New York, I was I was kind of exhausted. And I was looking I was you know, I had had even with a grant, it was an expensive first year to be sort of starting fresh. And the final straw for me, I remember the breaks in my car went out in the Battery Tunnel.

00:31:40:19 - 00:31:43:03
Mike
Oh, on my way to a gig.

00:31:43:13 - 00:31:45:09
Kate
It's never very convenient, is it?

00:31:45:13 - 00:32:05:12
Mike
Yeah. You know, I had, you know, my brakes never go out right after a perfectly parallel parking. Yeah, but but I was looking I was just looking for a break, and I was literally I mean, to be honest, I was I was I was praying around was what am I going to do about these bills? And back to back, somebody called and said, hey, I'm looking for a sublet.

00:32:05:12 - 00:32:23:00
Mike
If you know about anything, I have an internship. I'm going to be there like mid September through December. And then another friend called, said, Hey, I can't imagine you want to do it. But you know, the Miller Band, which he meant, the Glenn Miller Orchestra, which I had played with in 2011 with some friends from Akron, he said they're looking for somebody to come out and finish out the year.

00:32:23:04 - 00:32:30:09
Mike
It would include the Japan Tour in November and so if you know anybody, they're looking for somebody from mid-September through December.

00:32:30:22 - 00:32:31:07
Kate
Oh, my.

00:32:31:07 - 00:33:06:12
Mike
Gosh. Wait a minute, hold on a second. I could get away from my rent for for three months because this guy could just sublet and I could go to Japan for a month and it's just seems a little too perfect. So I was highly skeptical and it took me a week to decide if I'm if I'm honest. But I ended up going out for three months with the Glenn Miller Orchestra, and I had never gotten to go to Japan with them when I toured with them before and sort of reset on my way back, I was calling around because when you leave New York, it's, it's it's like it's like dog years.

00:33:06:12 - 00:33:28:23
Mike
You know, I was gone for three months, but it was like I had been gone for two years. You know, it's forgotten. It can feel like that sometimes. It's just such a it's such a fast place sometimes. I was calling around saying, hey, what's going on? You know, where you plan and and somebody let me know about a job that was opening up at the new school, and I really wasn't even looking for a job.

00:33:28:23 - 00:33:42:15
Mike
I definitely wasn't looking for full time. But when he told me about it, it sounded fascinating. It sounded like another interesting intersection in like the physical therapy office and like the first church of jazz and another intersection of music and wellness.

00:33:42:22 - 00:33:45:08
Kate
Okay. And the new school.

00:33:45:21 - 00:34:11:22
Mike
The new school, it's it's five colleges that came together in 19, 19 or sort of 1980s. It's, it's, it's a college, it's a university in Greenwich Village. You sometimes people have heard of Parsons. Yeah. Yeah. So Parsons is one of the colleges in the new school. Oh I'm sure people have heard of the Actor's Studio which was born out of the School of Drama.

00:34:12:05 - 00:34:33:05
Mike
School of Drama is part of the College of Performing Arts, which is part of the new school. Sometimes people know about the New School for Social Research or the, the University in exile, but it's, it's five colleges, all distinctive in their own right. Some of the, some of the schools go back farther go back to the 1800s. But it was formalized as university I think in the sixties.

00:34:33:05 - 00:35:02:07
Mike
But the new school itself was sort of 1919. It was the result of two Columbia professors who were pacifists and wouldn't sign a loyalty pledge in support of World War one who left and said we're going to try and make higher education more accessible to or education more accessible to Blue-Collar workers and to to labor people in labor to continue learning.

00:35:02:14 - 00:35:03:20
Kate
A wonderful mission.

00:35:04:14 - 00:35:10:08
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. Ironically it's now a very expensive private institution but both you know it started.

00:35:10:08 - 00:35:11:09
Kate
Out though with that.

00:35:11:16 - 00:35:17:05
Mike
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's many things like a lot of things here. With the rich and long history.

00:35:17:15 - 00:35:28:03
Kate
And so how was this job that obviously you were hired for? How was it this interesting intersection of things that you care about?

00:35:28:20 - 00:36:02:03
Mike
Sure, sure. Well, you know, I went to college out of high school. I had an opportunity to go not everybody does. And I had I was there with a great community of people. But there were also a lot of ways that the people around me didn't have the support they needed, you know, and and when this came up, this opportunity came up from a friend of mine named Dave Glasser, who I had performed with a bunch and I had had on that same radio show and who knew me pretty well.

00:36:02:21 - 00:36:24:03
Mike
And he said, you know, we have this position here and it's kind of like you guide these students through. And when they have a challenge, you help them out. But they also need a musician here because they need somebody who understands the curriculum and connect with the students. And it was the very first thing this was for me was it was an opportunity to be the person that me and my friends needed in college.

00:36:24:11 - 00:36:54:22
Mike
Oh, we I had friends who, you know, had trouble with their housing and people who experienced challenges with, you know, blatant and and more systemic racism and people who, you know, lost dear family members or whose financial circumstances changed drastically in college. And as good as they all were at at their studies and with music, they it just it affected their ability to succeed and persist through the program.

00:36:54:22 - 00:37:20:06
Mike
So and I we also had a fantastic advisor who worked really hard, but she was she had a huge caseload and she also was a department chair. And she also taught six classes. And so this position was was an opportunity to just help people with that. I had 350 students in All in the Jazz program. It's the second largest jazz program in the country and it's one of the most prestigious.

00:37:20:18 - 00:37:44:08
Mike
But they also were just 18 to 25, sometimes older, sometimes younger students who were trying to make it through Sure. Program Yeah. So there's a lot there was a lot of the intersection there, I think for music and wellness was it was all in the frame of music nothing there had to do with me playing the bass, though.

00:37:44:22 - 00:38:06:08
Mike
It had to do with me understanding what their motivations were when they didn't want to just take this route because it's not that that's not a viable option, that's just not the option that keeps me on this path a bit, prioritizes these things or keeps me a part of this community. So it was my coming to sometimes peace with a difficult decision.

00:38:06:08 - 00:38:31:01
Mike
Sometimes it was understanding, you know, okay, you've been working towards this really high ideal, but we need to be honest about the fact that you're homeless right now. We need to we need to support, figure this out before you can get back to this is just I would use Maslow's hierarchy of needs a lot, which, you know, at the very top of the pyramid is self-actualization, which is what a lot of artists want to do.

00:38:31:06 - 00:38:33:22
Mike
But at the bottom is like food and shelter.

00:38:34:01 - 00:38:36:05
Kate
The basics that we all need.

00:38:36:10 - 00:38:57:17
Mike
And then psychological, you know, you have physiological and psychological. You we need a sense of belonging. We need a community, we need some self-esteem and some validation. And so sometimes it was like, hey, this is all great and you're doing wonderful, but you're the first thing you told me is that you don't know anybody here. So why don't we go introduce you to somebody who's never heard of a 251?

00:38:57:17 - 00:39:18:11
Mike
Why don't we take you over to Lang and you can go to this lecture they got, you know, here's an app where you can see where all the free food is on campus. Just go find some free food. And, you know, it was it was like just another version of meeting people where they are and trying to figure out what they're shooting for and figure out what they need and help them navigate.

00:39:18:19 - 00:39:36:07
Kate
Wow. So, for instance, was there a particular student, homeless or otherwise, who had a serious issue and then was able to overcome that with your guidance?

00:39:38:08 - 00:39:38:20
Kate
During your.

00:39:38:20 - 00:39:43:01
Mike
I was a part of a team of professionals who could help with certain things like that.

00:39:45:06 - 00:40:09:08
Mike
Yeah. So there was you know, I was I was the first point of contact oftentimes or maybe the second, you know, when a student was having a hard time, I would usually see it because I could see attendance records or I could see grades or I could see, you know, responsiveness, or I could there were certain metrics or I would just be in the halls and I would be, you know, part of the job was deliberately starting conversations and checking in.

00:40:09:15 - 00:40:33:09
Mike
Or I would hear from a faculty member, I would hear from one of the deans or I would just a student would come to the off open hour. Sometimes as a friend of somebody who was trouble would come in and notify us. At that point, there was a responsibility to help either intervene or help guide or help provide resources.

00:40:33:09 - 00:40:58:08
Mike
And those resources included financial guidance, sometimes certain funds that were available in certain circumstances. There were most of my colleagues were social workers and there were there was a crisis intervention office. So sometimes that was I just found out about this. I need to drop everything and literally walk this person over to this office and I might need to cancel everything else.

00:40:58:08 - 00:41:36:12
Mike
So there was part of the role was that it never stopped with me, you know, but that it needed there needed to be compassionate intervention. They needed to be some sort of, you know, guidance along the way to the registrar or the financial office or the crisis support management or to resident's life or to the dean's office or to facilitate a conversation with a faculty member when when things had come to blows or or sometimes it was good things to sometimes, you know, had had students who were picking up international tours.

00:41:36:12 - 00:41:59:14
Mike
And it's like, wow, what what do we do here? This this theory teacher says he's going to fail me, but I'm going to, you know, be on the cover of Downbeat or something, you know, like it was, you know, there were good, good opportunities that came up, too. But I was identifying an inner intervention and and just trying to liaise the different forms of support.

00:42:00:02 - 00:42:17:04
Kate
That's great. And also at the New School, you were an instructor for the Designing Your Life course, which used the design thinking method. So what is design thinking and and why does that interest you?

00:42:17:18 - 00:42:53:06
Mike
Absolutely. That was another thing like when I went to grad school and I learned about pedagogy or that provided a lot of language to things that had already revealed themselves to be true or useful or were foundational philosophies for me. So the design thinking method I guess if I can do justice with a brief history here, but it was part of this book that was written by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans one of whom design the Apple Mouse and one of whom started Electronic Arts.

00:42:53:06 - 00:42:56:02
Mike
So in the design world, you know.

00:42:56:18 - 00:42:58:16
Kate
They're kind of they're kind of big. Yeah.

00:42:58:17 - 00:43:30:11
Mike
Yeah, they teach it. They teach it. I think Berkeley and Stanford, you know, and one of the things they realized was that these students of theirs who were in their own right some of the most talented designers, young designers in the world, were very talented at applying the design method to the products they were designing and had a really hard time applying it to their career or to a perspective on their life or to, you know, some of the more meaning making parts of what they were doing.

00:43:31:02 - 00:44:10:09
Mike
So the design thinking method in and of itself was originally empathy, deaf and empathize, define, ideate, prototype and test what they added when they started using it in a more sociological sense. With or with people was accept empathy, define ideate, prototype and test meaning, you know, admit that there's something that you actually want to work on here. And then here's a framework, a perspective to think about all of these things that seem huge and luminous and unwieldy in very practical steps and very fact.

00:44:10:10 - 00:44:34:13
Mike
And it's, it's starts with an ability to look at what is in your control, what's something that's just a design element and what's some things that is not in your control. Like if you're they say if you're building a rocket, you can't deal with a design that doesn't account for gravity. You know, they have gravity problems, which are just things that we have to work around.

00:44:34:21 - 00:44:56:16
Mike
Right. And in in career building or in life design, there are things like that. But then also everything else, just being a matter of priorities and holding it with a lightness that allows you to say, okay, I'm going to I'm going to work on this for now. I'm going to take an action here, but I'm also going to be mindful of the process.

00:44:56:16 - 00:45:18:04
Mike
I'm going to take a look back later and decide maybe for my next prototype, maybe the next time. And in the meantime, maybe I have a big design. I'm thinking about what is a prototype, what's a small and cheap and accessible version of this. I could try right now. I did it earlier today. I do some consulting work, and I'm thinking about do I want to really form formalize this do I want to go out and find clients?

00:45:18:04 - 00:45:44:02
Mike
Do I want to put together, you know, a list of services? So I went and I talked to somebody who's been doing that for 20 years and that's a prototype of this. I can just what's it what, what's your path? Then you can shadow somebody. So it's a framework that allows for constant iteration and illuminates a style of career exploration that they describe as wayfinding.

00:45:44:17 - 00:45:59:16
Kate
Right? Which steps you know, in the first step and the first step talking to somebody or well, thinking about it and then talking to somebody and then creating your own version of it and see and then you play around with that.

00:46:00:07 - 00:46:38:23
Mike
And holding it objectively out here is something that you're building and not something that is inherently who you are, right? This isn't my identity. So if I get fired from this job, I'm not a failure. Or if I don't get this role or if I'm not satisfied in this role, but just but but seeing it as a process of moving in this direction and then correcting course a little bit more towards this direction and and having a sense of what they what they talk about with wayfinding specifically, which I, I don't know how deep you want to go in this, but Moana has a great scene she stands up, I should be sailing, I am Princess

00:46:38:23 - 00:46:51:14
Mike
and I should be sailing this and and he says it's not sailing, it's wayfinding, it's seeing in your mind where you want to go and knowing where you are by knowing where you've been.

00:46:52:04 - 00:46:58:04
Kate
Oh wow. That is its own, you know, exploration isn't it.

00:46:59:00 - 00:47:22:15
Mike
Yeah. But truly thinking that for thousands of years people were traveling around the globe just by seeing where the sun was in the morning, where the stars were at night, having a general sense of direction and where they wanted to be and then just correcting course. And that as we've gotten tips and we've gotten all of this other information and we know more and it's more apparent, it's actually much scarier to take that kind of risk.

00:47:22:22 - 00:47:38:18
Mike
And stepping back and saying, what do we really need? We need a general direction and we need a compass. And that compass can be what are we good at? What energizes us? What are we interested in? Exploring? And if we start taking steps in that direction, we'll know when we get off path.

00:47:38:23 - 00:47:39:11
Kate
Yes.

00:47:39:17 - 00:47:55:07
Mike
But it's not necessarily like, you know, it's not like I fly from New York to L.A. as much as it is. Well, I hop on a bus to Rochester and then I realize I'm a little bit north of where I go. But there's a there's someone is going to Pittsburgh, and then I can I can catch a ride over to Cincinnati.

00:47:55:07 - 00:48:12:23
Mike
And in all of those places, getting a clarified idea of why we even want to go to L.A. or maybe along the way realizing LA was sort of cool until I heard about Austin and, you know, and just allowing space for taking action, but being mindful as well and.

00:48:12:23 - 00:48:41:02
Kate
Being willing to change course. Yeah. So now that you are no longer a full time in you know, being an advisor and everything you are still doing, as you mentioned, you're doing some consulting. And why is it that you want to continue doing all that? And are you putting more focus on your musical, you know, your performances?

00:48:41:19 - 00:48:45:03
Mike
Sure. Sure. You're asking all the hard questions here.

00:48:45:06 - 00:48:46:18
Kate
And you don't have to answer. You don't.

00:48:47:07 - 00:49:16:11
Mike
Know. No, I appreciate that. But truly, that's that's kind of what I what I'm exploring. It's it's a real privilege to be able to look at a lot of great options. You know, it's a real privilege to know that, you know, when I was a staff musician at the Grand Hotel, there are there are a lot of reasons why somebody would do that for the rest of their life, you know, and when I was working in hospitality in the South Pacific, and it was the most beautiful places in the world every single day with wonder, wonderfully energetic people that there's a lot of reasons why people would do that for the rest of your life.

00:49:16:11 - 00:49:36:16
Mike
And then higher ed, the way people give attention to making space for critical thought and community and intentionally making the changes that we want to see in the world and inspiring young minds why people would do that for the rest of your life. And it inspired me to think about what what do I hold most dear? You know?

00:49:37:06 - 00:49:55:22
Mike
And the funniest thing about it, I remember somebody asking me when I was 18, well, what's your plan? What do you want to do? And I said, I don't know. Everybody's asking me. I feel like I should have a plan. All I know is that I want to perform more than anything. I want to travel, but I don't want to travel all the time.

00:49:55:22 - 00:50:14:09
Mike
I want to have a comfortable home life, which means maybe I want to you know, make enough money to be able to support this, that whatever. And I don't know, maybe at some point I want a family. And they said, that's actually really clear. And I said, that's that's true. Now, I mean, all those same things are true now.

00:50:14:13 - 00:50:39:05
Mike
And I would go deeper to say that I find a lot of satisfaction in performing arts, and I'm energized by that. But I also find that when that gets unbalanced, I don't want to take performances off the table when I'm feeling burnt out or stressed or unbalanced, I actually want to add something to the other side. And that has been what this advising has been for me.

00:50:39:05 - 00:51:10:13
Mike
This is what happens when I sit down with somebody. We can just take something really murky and make it clear or take something that seems completely out of their control and say, well, this these parts, I do have agency and this, and it keeps me accountable to the things that are murky and feel out of my control in a freelance and other forms of freelance work or in performance, because I don't I don't I still want to perform more than anything, but there's a lot of energy and life to these other conversations and it's part of my own wellness.

00:51:10:17 - 00:51:17:15
Kate
And it's it's part of your unique gift to give, you know, for the world, you know, for yourself and for the world.

00:51:17:15 - 00:51:33:18
Mike
So there's a responsibility to that. I feel like when when I have these conversations and people say this, wow, this really help. There's there's a part of me that says, like, I was given this from various mentors and from who knows where, and there's a responsibility to share it. Absolutely.

00:51:34:13 - 00:51:42:18
Kate
Share the wealth for sure. So anything else you'd like to add, make yeah.

00:51:42:23 - 00:52:08:01
Mike
But I will say that you helped me to some Greek food and a story you asked about I remember you you asked me earlier about whether or not I tried the Greek food here and there's that I've been missing out. So I'm definitely going to be exploring that. And just that it's always such a pleasure to to connect back to to Ohio.

00:52:08:01 - 00:52:16:03
Mike
I'm so glad that you reached out and you were so helpful when I was promoting that concert back in November because.

00:52:16:03 - 00:52:17:03
Kate
I just went well.

00:52:17:17 - 00:52:30:07
Mike
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's just it all stems from there and it feels like the world is getting smaller because I get to speak with speak with you here today.

00:52:30:11 - 00:52:35:15
Kate
Yes. It's it's been a really terrific conversation. Thank you.

00:52:35:16 - 00:52:39:22
Mike
It's been a pleasure. Speaking with you. And I appreciate you inviting me on your show today.

00:52:41:05 - 00:53:07:11
Kate
This is Kate Jones. We'll be right back with music from MC for Fire, live with friends. 2017 this is Kate again. Here's when the blues leave followed by Beautiful Love.

00:55:53:17 - 00:57:27:05
Kate
For the good.

00:59:13:20 - 00:59:23:06
Kate
This is Kate Jones with the Gail Hill Radio Hour. Until next time. Thanks for joining us. Please remember to subscribe like and share. It's greatly appreciated. Thank you.