Episode 240 | Author/Therapist Martina Nova Same Page Parenting

On this episode we have on therapist and author Martina Nova. 
 
 We talked about having 2 kids, kids being almost out of diapers, being overwhelmed at a farmer’s market with 2 kids, nervous system regulation, why she focuses on nervous systems, curiosity in relationships, her work as a trauma therapist, and writing her book Same Page Parenting.
 
  I really enjoyed her book Same Page Parenting.  This book takes so many subjects that you encounter when you have kids and gives you a way to start conversations about it.  She takes subjects like identity, intimacy, screen time, food, neurodivergence and talks about her relationship with it, resources to learn more about it, and then a list of questions to think about depending on the age and phase of life your kid is in.  You can find a link to the book in the here.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Imperfect Dance Podcast. This is your host, Devin. We believe dads care deeply about their family and kids, but they don't always have a space to discuss what their life looks like. Our podcast is a space for dads to discuss the ups and downs of fatherhood and how they feel like they're holding it together, or how they're not. Thank you for joining us for this episode. This podcast is part of the Never A Face Network. Make sure to follow them on Instagram or go to the website neverface network.com. On this episode, we have one therapist and author Martina Nova. We talk about having two kids, kids being almost out of diapers, being overwhelmed at a farmer's market with two kids, nervous system regulation, why she focuses on nervous system, curiosity and relationships, her work as a trauma therapist, and writing her book, Same Page Parenting. I really enjoyed her book, Same Page Parenting. This book takes so many subjects that you encounter when you have kids and gives you a way to start conversations about it. She takes subjects such as identity, intimacy, screen time, food, neurodivergence, and talks about her relationship with it, resources to learn more about it, and then a list of questions to think about depending on the age and phase of life your kids in. You can find the link to the book in the show notes. Just like one more thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Dad, just start the episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Oh, my bad. Welcome to an episode of the I always feel like whenever I have a mom on, like saying the imperfect dads, like, should I change it to imperfect parents? I can't call it imperfect moms because I'm not a mom. So I always have this identity crisis in the intro to be like imperfect parents. I don't I don't know what to do with this. Hey Martina, welcome to an episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

It's all good. Imperfect dad is good. That's the name of it, and that's what we'll go with.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

That's what we'll go with. Okay, cool. Appreciate that. Thank you for the grace and understanding of being a mom on a dad podcast. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Of course. It's an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

First question is how many kids you got? Ages, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Yeah, I've got two kids. Um, my son is almost four, and my daughter just turned two.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Nice. That's fun. Is your two-year-old out of diapers yet, or are they still in diapers?

SPEAKER_02 2:10

She is still in diapers, but she has had a few goes on the potty, but I think she's still a bit scared of it. So we're waiting a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah. It's, I think, so I have a 10-year-old daughter, eight-year-old daughter, and four-year-old son. And it was always interesting to me. Like we started to try to potty train at two, not a good experience. Two and a half, much better experience. So it's weird how like six months in my life, that doesn't make that much of a difference. But when they're that little, it's like, oh, you're ready now. But like six months ago, this was a fight and awful and a not a good experience for anyone.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Absolutely. And you waited until they were ready, which was also a good sign.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yes, it was. For our youngest, we had just moved. So we actually waited until he turned three because the thought of like uh we moved across the country and the thought of being like in a rental house trying to train potty train a kid who didn't have a consistent environment was like this only we diapers are fine. We're fine here. This is good.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think that was the right choice.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Thank you. I appreciate that. Um are you how do you I feel like some parents always get like excited about the thought of not buying diapers and not dealing with diapers anymore. Do you have any excitement over like, oh man, the diaper phase is over? Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Well, I had it since my son is potty trained. I think I was sad because I no longer got to see his squishy diaper bum, which was so cute in his clothes. But I definitely am excited to not have to worry about it or not have to deal with all of the waste anymore. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yep. It's also the we don't keep a diaper bag anymore. Like we have snacks, and like the girl or my older ones have like uh almost like fanny packs, and we still put their snacks in there if we go to the zoo or something, and like we're almost out of like the stroller phase of life, also. And I'm like, my god, leaving the house. It's like it's bittersweet, but like leaving the house is just like, do you guys have snacks and water bottles? And like then we're good. And I'm like, this used to be a whole checklist in my head of things I mostly forgot.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Mm-hmm. An entire production. It goes lower and lower.

unknown 4:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

It does. Just to segue into your book, real quick. You did write a book, that's awesome, called Same Page Parenting. And I'm a fan of it. The reason why I'm immediately doing the segue is you do like a chapter where you talk about the exhaustion of having a newborn baby where you're going to meet, going to like other people's houses to be like, I should be here, but also I'm not mentally present at all because I've done all this stuff. And that felt very relatable of like, I'm here because I'm trying to have community, but I'm not mentally here in any way at all. And it's great.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yes. It's it's in the book where we talk about things like people pleasing where after we have kids, it's this expectation that now we're gonna show off our kid and have everybody come over a we go and do all the things for everybody else. But at the end of the day, we're the ones who suffer when we overbook ourselves and we don't honor our own capacity.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah. Yeah. And that in addition to the when you're getting the newborn out of the house, you've got the car seat, you've got them tucked, you've got them like warmly in the car seat, you've got the 30 bags just to go hang out at someone's house for 30 minutes and not be mentally present for any of it, is like, oh, you have if someone I love the thought of normalizing, like, hey, you don't have to do this. Like you'll be okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yes, absolutely. Or let's do it in a way, in a time and a place that actually makes sense for me. Come over, you bring the food, I'm not getting ready for you. And bring headphones if you don't like babies crying.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

That's how we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Because this is reality and this is what life looks like for me right now. And I legitimately can't really control most of this, so if you're here, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yep, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

But yeah, I thought that was a fun moment in the book where it felt very relatable. Because I also remember like me and my wife um going places because like, oh, we need to be here, and then being like, Did you did you make any genuine connection at all that entire time? And it's like, nope, but we all tried, and does that mean anything? Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

I hear you. And it's so tricky. I was literally just talking to my girlfriends about this the other day, where there'll still be moments where we'll all be hanging out, and then I'll be like, oh my god, I didn't even ask them how their dad is doing, or I knew that they had this thing happening at work, and I forgot to ask them about that, or I forgot like that also as our kids get older, or even when they're younger still, like our minds are in so many different places that we're not in social mode anymore. So even just honoring that and taking a minute to be like, my brain is mush and I'm not gonna be the same version of social that I usually am, yeah, gives compassion, which is nice.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

It is. I I find whenever I admit that to myself, it actually like gives me more energy to have the thing I think I don't have. Like if I go up to a friend, I'm like, I'm mentally like 30 places at once. And then it like as a I don't perform, I guess, is what ends up happening. So then I like because I think there's a possibility for genuine connection in like every moment. But if you're mentally somewhere else, they'll just say, Hey, mentally I'm not here. So uh it might take me a bit to know how to connect, but hey, I want to connect with you, so let's do this.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yes, you were calling out the elephant in the room. It's like when someone goes and does a big speech and right beforehand is like, hey, everyone, I'm really nervous, and people start to laugh and it breaks the ice, and then you can get into it a little bit better as opposed to I need to perform and show up how people think I need to right now.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Of course. It's real fun. I was gonna ask how like your mom community is. Like, how's it? Do you feel like you have good mom friends who are in a similar phase of life as you?

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Yeah, good question. I'm very, very grateful and privileged that I have it's funny because a lot of my closest friends are therapists.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

So I'm a therapist, all my closest friends are therapists. So, um, and we are we're all on similar paths of life. Some of my friends just had their kids. Some of my friends have kids similar ages, a little bit older. So, in a way, that community has grown and is really powerful where I get to share my experience. And then the community where I'm a therapist and I work a lot with new parents and new moms, I get to be that support for them. I don't really share my stuff unless people ask, but I also feel like that's kind of a community too.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah, that's awesome. Does it have you, since you wrote your book, have you done many interviews yet where like you are the one who gets you get asked questions? Is that like how do you feel with that role of being the one being asked questions instead of feeling like you need to be asking all the questions?

SPEAKER_02 8:27

I love that. Yeah, it's I have I've done a few podcasts and like newspaper magazine interviews. It's been really very humbling and very exciting. It's it's been different because I mean, aside from I go to my own therapy as well, where my therapist therapizes me and I I get asked questions, but in this platform, there is still a bit of a mask on because I'm still a therapist and I'm still a writer. However, I will answer most of the questions I get asked similarly to how I show up authentically in session, but just making sure that I can continue to be relatable and provide helpful information as I answer. It's not just I answer for my own processing, but I answer so that the people listening can get something out of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. It is always if I'm ever on like a podcast, I'm almost like, I have to remind myself to not return the question. Because like if right now, like I if you're like, hey, Devin, how's this? A big, oh, and I'm gonna ask this is how a relationship works. You ask me a question, I want to know how you relate to that question, and then we go. But like when you're a guest or the interviewee, it's like, no, no, just answer the question, let them drive. And I'm like, but I want to learn about them too. What are they like?

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Absolutely, because it's a very different hat on when I'm in therapy mode, and I always find a way to return the question back to the other person. But here, you're right, having to be a lot more checked in to be like, I can answer and that's it. That's it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

You can just stop, you can stop right there, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

But it is it is very much a different mindset. What do you sorry, to go back to you ha being a mom and having kids, like what's something you do for fun with them? Like since they are still a little bit on the younger side, like do you get out of the house, go to the zoo, go on adventures, anything like that? What's your like day-to-day life look like with them?

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah, good question. So I am because I'm currently co-parenting with my ex-husband, so we share our kids 50-50. And on the days that I have the kids, I'm so pumped and so excited. And I want to go out and do all the fun things and take them on all the adventures. However, I do have to also honor my capacity that usually on weekdays after 5 p.m., they may be dysregulated and overwhelmed. And it kind of depends on their mood. Like maybe they just want to stay home and jump on the couch and color together. And maybe on the weekends, I'm still afraid my two-year-old might run away. So if I do go to the zoo, or if I go to a farmer's market, or if I go to a friend's house, or if I do things out, like we've got a Sakura Cherry Blossom Japanese festival happening this weekend. If I were to take them to that, I would probably ask for some friends or family or reinforcements to come. So I did I wouldn't fear losing them in a crowd or something because I still don't fully trust myself on my own with them. It still feels a bit overwhelming sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Cause it is.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yes.

unknown 11:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Well, like my my older girls, like um going whenever they got older, like going to the zoo with them where I'd be with their younger brother, like pushing the stroller, is a very different vibe of like, okay, I know the playground is right over there at the zoo. I know the animal you want to see is just right up ahead. So if you get out of eyesight or something like that, I know exactly where you are, and I trust that you won't get distracted and you'll end up there. Like a two and a four-year-old, like, no, I I want to give them responsibility, but like, no, they're they're young, they're two and fourth. It's be a great way for you to be very mad at your kids and very anxious for an entire morning and afternoon if you thought you couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Totally, totally very dysregulating. And especially since like my son has some sensory sensitivities. I have ADHD. I don't know if he has ADHD, but yeah, there's also like a huge emotional regulation component where if he is regulated, like he'll be excited and it'll be great. But if he's overwhelmed and every small thing sets him off, then it's like, okay, I gotta be there for him to help him co-regulate and feel okay. But then my daughter might also be like, what about me? I'm like, oh gosh, I'm only one person.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

And then you're like, I forgot to buy the one thing I came to the farmer's market to buy. I thought I was gonna buy some vegetables, maybe some local produce, and I just made sure my kids felt safe for two hours instead.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Exactly. Yeah. And that's still a win.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

It is. It is. But it's um it's the phase of life and it's reality, and you just have to be honest with yourself going into the farmer's market. Like, I don't know how this is gonna go, and uh set some realistic expectations.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Absolutely. Yes. Don't be too hard on ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah, pretty much. What's your energy like whenever you don't have your kids for the week? Like whenever you see the time where your ex-husband has them instead. Like, how how do you fill that time or how do you deal with that mental shift?

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah, good question. So it's actually been a recent shift for me. Okay. Co-parenting. And so it's been an adjustment. The first little while was really tough needing to fill my evenings, not used to coming home to an empty house. Um, so definitely ramping up, going to my own therapy, doing my own like bodywork, like doing a lot of stretching. At first, I just tidied up the house like crazy. I'm like, I get to what am I gonna organize next so I feel productive?

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Um, but now I'm I am trying to lean into like, okay, well, now that I have this time, who can I connect with? How can I connect to parts of myself that aren't just motherhood, that aren't just therapist or daughter or wife or sister. Yeah. And it's been a real identity crisis and shift for me to find out who that person is because I don't think I've really connected to her since I had my kids.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yeah.

unknown 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Wild. Well, I think like being becoming a mom or a dad does like immediately require you to jump in. Like you get pushed off the diving board, whatever analogy you want to be like, this is who you are now. And then I feel like your kid turns two or so, and you're like, you start to come up for air a little bit because they get a little bit more independence. And then you're like, wait, who am I? And who was that person for the last two to four years? Or three you're also pregnant. So realistically, it's five years. So like it's like, okay, cool. So, Martina, you now are gonna start to explore who are you now? And do you have the mental space for that? Do you have the capacity for it? But it's also really important.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, such a good point. I remember when it all first happened, and some of my girlfriends, even my own therapist, was like, here's a chance for you to get to know yourself again. And I was like, What? Who? I don't know who that is. Yeah. And so it's wild, but it's also such a privilege to be able to do that because then the more I connect to myself, the more I can feel in my body, know how I'm regulated and respond to my kids in a way that they see me laughing more and more like in tune with them and I play more and I I can feel the shift. It's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

When you say body work, my first thought was to think like doing workouts or working out or something like that. Do you mean actually like checking in with your body and knowing how you feel that day and how regulated you are?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Yeah. Cool. I like that you said that. Yeah. So it is a combination. Like there are times where I know that on the days where I can get some more like intentional working out movement, like going to the gym and stuff, then I will be more regulated for the day in general. But it's also absolutely bodywork in terms of, okay, my chest feels really tight today. What's happening for me? What has led me to get to this state? Where am I within like my window of tolerance? Am I about to lose it? What does it feel like when I lose it? Like that is all becoming friends with our own body and our internal experience. Yeah. Everybody has a different journey with that, but when we can hone in on it, it can be like one of the most like sacred tools that you have to show up for yourself and your kids.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, it is. I yeah, and it's also a constant work in progress. Like I try my best to be in tune with like, why is my body feeling like this? But then there are other days I'm like, nope, need to get stuff done. Need to get this to to do this done, and just ignore whatever warning signs my body's telling me.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

That's that is okay as well. Like we don't have to go all or nothing where it's like, okay, every single trigger I I pause my life and I reflect.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

It's unrealistic. But but you are correct in that in the moments that we can do that, it it becomes powerful. And we can actually teach our kids to do that because oftentimes when we're stressed or overwhelmed, people go to like thinking, thinking, what happened? What do I need to do? How do I need to distract? How do I need to soothe myself? But sometimes it's literally just sitting into your body and feeling, which can be really scary as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I know being an American, um, I'm prone to have a very problem-solving mindset and very much like, what's the problem, what's the solution? Do you have that mindset as well? Or do you ever struggle with that of like, how do I create a solution for a problem? And or anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah, there's I mean, there's entire therapies around that. There's literally a therapy called solution-focused therapy. Where as therapists, we, what's a problem, what's a solution? Let's come up and it's more kind of coaching style of how do we create solutions. And sometimes it's it's gendered, sometimes it's men are more likely to find solutions for problems as opposed to when women are talking, they just want validation or they just want to be heard. They don't want a solution. But in my therapy as a therapist, it becomes a combination because people will come to therapy and will want to work on here's my issue. I want to understand where it comes from, what I can do about it. But the what I can do about it comes, but it comes a little, it takes a lot longer to get there because first we need to dig deep and we need to be explorers together and we need to build and resource you with tools so that you can handle the distressing stuff that you might find. And then when we find it, then we can figure out okay, how do I tend to this sensation, to this part of me, to this feeling? And that ends up being the solution, but it's lifelong work. It's not just a I do it once and it's done.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah. Which I would love if it was that simple. You know, I figure out why I feel away once and then I never deal with it again. Sadly, that's not how anything seems to work.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

I know. It sucks. We have to keep working on ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

What made you like what started your journey with like exploring like nervous system stuff? Because to me, that's all like nervous system stuff, how you're responding to stuff when you get put into fight, flight, fawn, or freeze mode, all that good stuff. What made you get started on like exploring that aspect of mental health?

SPEAKER_02 19:03

So it's interesting because in doing your master's in counseling therapy, a lot of it is focused on like research-based studies and methodology and which therapy you're gonna practice. And there's like one class on trauma in your entire trauma. Seriously? At least how I did it. Yeah, yeah. I don't think it's changed much since then. But I remember when I finished my master's school and I would start working, and I was like, okay, like I'm asking the questions, I'm doing this the theory part, but everyone's coming in and has like underlying trauma stuff. And there's the different types of trauma. Like we can have the big T trauma diagnosable PTSD DSM stuff, which is have you been in a car accident, a near death experience? Have you lost someone? Have you been assaulted? Like big trauma. But we can also have small tea trauma, we call it, where it's could be early attachment repetitive stuff where we weren't seen as kids, or we had a caregiver who wasn't present, or we were afraid and walking on eggshells in our home, and we saw what relationships looked like and they didn't feel predictable. And so there were so many folks who were coming in with relational or self-doubt issues, and it started in early attachment. And I was like, I have the way I can intellectually help someone come up with that, but but they still keep looping. And so I decided to undergo this certification called Canadian Certified Trauma Psychotherapy. And it was such a huge focus on nervous system work and how literally you need to start, we call it with that bottom-up approach. We have to go and sink into our nervous system and say, well, why am I operating in a fight, flight freeze, or fawn mode instead of a regulated mode? Because when we're calm, we can be like, oh my God, I should have said that. Yeah. Why did I do that? But it's in the moments that are stressful that matter. So that's why I focus a lot on nervous system regulation and my counseling and teaching tools and how can we connect to that? Because especially with kids, especially if we have neurodivergency involved, ability to regulate ourselves is very hard.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Very much so. Does that, as a mom, does that make you show up differently for your kids whenever they are having a meltdown or whenever you see them as dysregulated? Like, do you view that through like a very different type of lens? Because you you know what this looks like 20 years in the future.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yes, absolutely. I think if everyone had the opportunity to be a therapist and sit with someone who's in their 40s or fees who says, I still remember when my mom screamed at me because I couldn't put my shoes on properly. And this happened all the time. Or she would say I was stupid or I was dumb. Or I would remember how my parents would argue and there'd never be resolution, and things would be thrown, and I'd be so confused, and no one would check in on me. I would just hide in my room. And I'm scared of relationships now where I have this feeling about myself. Now. And so, and it's not to scare parents who have like done these things, but it's just to say that kids absorb so much of what they see and how they feel. And of all of our unresolved stuff gets passed down to them. And so if we got to see what our kids could look like 20 years from now and what we need to do to show up for them differently, and it's not just pushing them to be academically superior or pushing them to have the right manners or to eat all the food off their plate, but it's how do I build self-worth in a kid? How do I help them understand what's going on in their body when they're screaming because I gave them a blue cup instead of the red cup? And how do I how do I give them compassion? It's hard, but like that's a big part of what they need. So yes, it's it's helped shape how I show up with my kids for my sessions, but also books like The Whole Brain Child by Dan Siegel or Good Inside. So yeah, there's resources out there that show you that stuff too, but it's it's an honor to be in a position as a parent. And now we get to help our kids have a childhood or a future we didn't have. But unless we're aware of what affected us, we're gonna repeat the same patterns.

unknown 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

But not on purpose. Just because we we didn't notice it.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah, I I have the belief or the optimism that every parent, if they knew that what they were saying, how they're treating their kids was damaging them, they would figure out the work to do to stop damaging their kids. And I I do think the sad reality is that most people repeat patterns, repeat what they think is normal because they just don't, it's just what they think is normal. And I would like to believe if you knew the damage you were doing to something, you would stop. And that hopefully isn't too optimistic and naive, but like I have to believe if you knew you were damaging your kid, you'd look up and go, Oh, what work do I have to do? What do I have to do to make sure I'm not hurting someone?

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah, I like that you say that. Well, and it depends on like what's our definition of damaging our kid, because I've worked with folks who will still have I like to, I mean, no offense to boomers, but I call it boomer mentality, yeah. Where boomer parents will say things like, Well, I told you to do this and you didn't do this, and so I'm gonna yell at you for it. Or, you know, I said put your shoes on and you didn't put your shoes on, so now no TV for a week.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

And we we try to punish our kids and we're like, Well, I'm teaching them discipline, I'm teaching them consequences. And so if someone thinks that that's, you know, that is the best way to parent, then they're gonna do it. But if we actually learn, well, no, kids, kids need predictability and kids need repair. Like, it's okay if once in a while we'll lose it and we might yell at our kid, but do we come afterwards and say, I got really overwhelmed and I yelled at you and I'm sorry. I was angry, but I shouldn't yell at you. How are you feeling? Are you okay? Do you need a hug? Like that repair is what the kid needs to not be like, I am a burden, I am bad, I am wrong. And that carries people into their adulthood.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

I think one of my wives and I's main goal with our kids is to figure out how do we make things a conversation? Because there are the moments in which you are like, like last night, one of my daughters was like 9:30. I put them in bed at like 8:30 or something like that. She came out to like ask our Amazon Alexa what the weather was tomorrow. And I'm like, you should be asleep. What are you doing out here? And I probably said it in that type of tone. Then I went in, she like just walked back to her and didn't talk. I was like, hey, it's because it's late. I thought you were already asleep. Like, I want to make sure you have good sleep for tomorrow because I want you to be able to be ready and prepared for school tomorrow. Like, that's why I was like, what are you doing out here? So sorry if that was too much. Just I need you to sleep for these reasons. And like to me, that's not weakness, and also that's not disobedience on her part. But I think some people view that as weakness to let your child into your mindset. And I'm like, no, that makes you human and you are human. So lean into it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Yes. That's such a beautiful example. I love that. Where, yeah, because with all this information of are we just going to mess up our kids or do something wrong and make them have bad adulthoods, like we can adopt this fear mindset, or we can say, well, it's not how am I am I going to mess up my kid because I lose my voice or I snap or I or I, you know, say something like what you were saying with your kids. It's how do I repair afterwards? And how do I then go to them and explain and help them see, you know, instead of just go to your room and think about what you did, how about I go with you and explain to you why you did what you did because your brain isn't able to actually put that together yet. And if I give you the narrative, then you'll have one and you won't see yourself as a bad person. You'll just see yourself as a good person who did a thing they shouldn't have done. So you can change that.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Like it's that there's a lot more to it.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

I think it takes a lot of intentionality and energy, and it can be not tiresome. I I think it's always worth it to find the energy. It's always worth it to be like, all right, it's 10 p.m. For some reason my kids are still awake and I really want them to go to sleep, and I'm probably being short with them. But hey, make sure you're being human as well. Make sure you're explaining that to them, as opposed to just, I don't know anyone whose parents said, do this because I said so, and that they seem to have a healthy relationship with their parents as adults. It's it's pretty rare that I have found friends who have a healthy relationship with their parent who said, do it or else at all times.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's more kind of the fear-based parenting or mentality. Um and I like that you said like things should be a conversation with your kids. And that's part of the essence behind the book that I wrote, Same Page Parenting, which is we also want to get on the same page as our partners, whether or not we live in the same home, but especially if we live in the same home of okay, if are we both gonna respond the same way to our kids if they're having a tantrum? So our kid doesn't learn like good cop, bad cop. Both kids can get regulated by both sets of parents. So that's also a big part of it, as well, is digging into our own past. Like, how did my parents respond to me if I would have done something like this? And is that gonna come out unintentionally? And can we catch it beforehand so that when the opportunity presents itself, we can be on the same page with how we respond and we're like a united front for them.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah. I I did appreciate how your book, you gave a lot of personal examples of like your relationship with your mom, of like, where you'd be like, okay, uh, here's our relationship with food. And you're like, well, my mom would never approve of this. And then you feel like your mom's judging you for how you're treating your kids with food and stuff. And that's real. That's real life. It's like, oh, you do immediately have to be like, what did my parents teach me about food? Was it good? Was it bad? How do I feel about it? And then what am I inherently going to pass on to my kids because it's what you do?

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Absolutely. Yes, it's what you do. It's and there's so many things that come come into it as well, right? It's not just my parents were strict or bad or rude or things like that. You know, I talk about in the book as well how my parents came from at the time Czechoslovakia. And growing up, there were a lot of times where maybe we didn't know where our next meal was gonna come from. And so we eat everything off of our plate for survival, not just for respect and to show that you liked what you what you enjoyed. And growing up as well, there were times where we also had to do that. And so it now as a parent, like I'm very privileged that I'm not worried about what my kids are gonna be eating next. And therefore I can respect their hunger cues and not push them and see, okay, how much are you gonna eat this time? And are you okay? And if you eat too much chocolate, well, they're gonna get a bellyache and you're gonna figure that out on your own. Um, and they did on Easter. They did, they figured it out. They were like, Oh no, I'll have less chocolate next time. I'm like, that's a great plan.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

That's a great plan. Totally. Totally. My kids do the same. Well, they'll be like, um, or if they one of my kids did a birthday party in which they had an ice cream bar there, and we didn't realize how many scoops of ice cream they got. And then so later she was pretty dysregulated because she was way over sugared. And she was like, I just had too much ice cream. That's the problem. And I'm like, probably. I mean, how many scoops do you get? Like three. And I'm like, Oh, that's a lot of ice cream. I didn't, I didn't know that. I would have been nicer to you whenever you were really grumpy. Sorry, my bad.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

I love that because you're also practicing this, you know, let letting kids be autonomous, but also make their own mistakes. Like we think as parents, we have to protect our kids from everything. But it's like, well, if you're gonna eat too much chocolate or have too much ice cream, unless you're like lactose intolerant or there's like medical issues around it, then yes, we have to police it a bit more. But if it's just around like no sweets until after dinner, or don't eat too much because of XYZ reason, then our kids aren't actually gonna learn like natural consequences to their actions. Yes. It's not don't eat another chocolate or else no TV. It's well, if you eat more, your stomach's gonna hurt. And they're gonna learn that.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yep. They will. And learning what discomfort you're comfortable with with your children is a very interesting journey to find as a parent.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Say more about that.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Well, in general, you therapist, I think I think because there's some like uh to me, that's a discomfort. That is your kid has eaten too much sugar, maybe they've done too many play dates in a day and they're dysregulated. And so you want them to know, like, hey, whenever you're strung out, whenever you're at your wit's end, this is this is what you feel like. So if you start to feel this way, know, hey, you're about to reach the limit of this. But like, I also as a parent, I know that's what's about to happen. I know, hey, you're about to eat the fifth piece of the chocolate. So, like, I want you to have some knowledge of this, but also not so much knowledge that the rest of the day is us fighting because you're dysregulated. I'm trying to regulate you and you're fighting me on it for the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Totally, totally. You're right. There's a lot of nuance to it where do we just let anything and everything happen? Or do we have our limits here and they're gonna have a hard moment and then we lean into our co-regulation? And okay, now that you don't like that I've actually limited this for you because I'm trying to think of our well-being as a family for the rest of the day, what do you need to feel seen or heard or understood? Yes, etc.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

And I think as my kids get older, that's a much better relationship just because their brain is more developed and they can understand concepts better. And it is very helpful and very lovely.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree. Um, it also depends on I don't know if any of your kids are neurodivergent, but there's a lot of demand avoidance that happens with my son as well. Even um, you know, if he's really frustrated about something, the first thing he says is, You're not coming to my birthday. And I'm oh gosh, he'll be like, My sister can come, dad can come, but you can't come. And yesterday he said it because I didn't let I didn't wait until he came out of his car seat on his own or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I was like, You're frustrated. He's like, I'm not frustrated. You're just not coming to my birthday. And I was like, All right, well, the tools I'm trying to work, I'm trying to use aren't working because you're not here right now.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

So you'll come back in a bit.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Exactly. You'll come back in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yes. I feel like my my four-year-old is very much like I have to win at everything. And his older sisters likely are pretty good at understanding, like, let him get on the door first, whatever. But like we try to figure out how to make it a game. Is like, so if like if we get out of the car and we're in the garage, and like clearly we're right next to the door, and he'll be like, no, we're like, oh no, we stepped in quicksand. Oh no, we got hit with the slow-mo ray. And I'm grateful that my older daughters are still seeing the value in doing that because it makes it fun and playful. And I just know developmentally that's where he's at. So sitting him down and being like, you don't need to win at everything isn't going to teach him that. I don't think that's gonna teach him that lesson.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and because like at that age, we're looking for autonomy and he's looking for autonomy and control, and it makes so much sense. It's not bad, it's developmentally where he's at in that ego state. So you introducing games or songs, or yeah, yesterday I was like, all right, let's crawl like babies from your brother's room to your sister's room, and we're gonna put her down for sleep, and now everyone's immediately crawling.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Who can get there first? And and again, that is like we can have a lot of playful energy. And does our partner do that as well with our kids? Like, are we on the same page with how we wanna handle this kind of thing, or do our kids only feel comfortable doing it with one parent because they know one parent's gonna have this approach, but the other isn't?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yeah. Of course. Well, hey, tell us a little bit about your book, same page parenting. I'll hold it up in frame again for the for the podcast. What made you write it? Uh, what was it like writing it? Tell us, give us like a brief overview of what the book is.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Totally. So Safe Page Parenting is a conversation starter book. And what it is is it's different from traditional parenting books where it tells you exactly how to parent what to do in specific situations, but it's broken up into 13 chapters, and each chapter has three subtopics. So mental math, hard to do there, lots of subtopics. And the way that each chapter works is let's say the chapter on trauma-informed parenting, where it gives an introduction on what is trauma-informed parenting, why is it important for us to talk about, how does it show up with our kids for each subtopic? I give a personal anecdote as to how I've connected to this because while I'm a therapist that works on this every single day with clients, I am a human and I struggle with this on my own. And so just showing a little bit of the humanity of we can have all the information, but we can still struggle in this way. Each subtopic has an additional resource if you want to get into learning more about this outside of the book, and then starts the conversation starters and they're broken down by category of age. So age of your kids, pre-pregnancy, where most of the questions there are about your own upbringing, experience with that particular topic at home, questions just to get you to think. And you can use these conversation starters with your partner, with your ex, with your friends, with your community, with your therapist, whoever is going to be raising kids alongside you. Um, and it follows you by stage. So pre-pregnancy, pregnancy, early postpartum, toddlerhood, preteen, teen, even adult children. Because I work with a lot of folks who have adult kids and are trying to strengthen their relationship with their adult kids who are like maybe like, oof, I wonder if maybe I was too hard on them here.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

So conversation starters for us to have with each other so we can stay connected, we can stay on the same page. There's topics like mental health for both partners. How does postpartum depression show up? Intimacy, how does intimacy change postpartum? Food preferences, people pleasing, social justice, racism, bullying, gender norms and expectations, division of labor, mental load. So much that we don't think about after we have kids, I should talk about this stuff. Unless you like go to a therapy room, or unless you listen to a lot of podcasts, or unless you maybe have a community where you do talk about this stuff, but most people don't. Most of it is how many diapers do we need? Are we going to bottle feed? How much Matt Leave are you taking, etc.?

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Oh yeah. No, I I love, I love like um, yeah, because you give like a brief overview of the subject. And then I love how you always reference a book. It's like, hey, seriously, if you want to learn more about this, go go read this book, go check this out. Here's some resources. And the fact that you don't approach this from a here's the answer approach is something I genuinely love because I personally, I know it's probably my own ego, but like I hate when someone's like, well, here's the answer to that. It's like, that's your answer to that. So like tell me how you got to that answer, and then I'll then I'll understand you more. But like you have basically written a book with a bunch of threads to pull out about things that are taking up your mental space when you're a parent, regardless if you're willing to acknowledge it or not.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Absolutely. Yes, that's exactly what it is. And and you asked why I wrote it as well. And there's a few reasons why I wrote it. And one was when I was doing my a lot of work with couples, especially after I had my daughter, I would send people conversation questions. We'd get at the 50-minute mark or the 80-minute mark at the end of sessions, and I'd be like, There's still so many questions I want you guys to ask each other conversations to have, but we're done, so let me email them to you.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

A lot of these questions were actually questions I literally would ask couples or individuals in session, or would email people, or questions where I would reflect on my own relationship and I was like, gosh, I wish, I wish we had talked about that more. I wonder if that would have made a difference in where we would have ended up. Perhaps, perhaps not. But it's kind of like some preventative stuff, some interventionary stuff. Like talk about it before it happens, or if it when you're in the middle of it, how can I talk about it? It's the therapy level questions, but in your living room.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Yeah. With your partner. And I love it because like I feel like um if I am a husband or a partner reading this book, it it I'm naturally an introspective and reflective person, but it does give me like a okay, here's the starting point. If this is an issue I keep on running into with my wife or partner, here's a roadblock we keep on hitting. What is what am I actually dealing with here? And I think you answer it, you ask these questions in a way in which like they shouldn't be offensive to you because they are so curious. Like if you view any of these questions in the sections as an attack at you, that's that's sad to me because it's just basically been like, hey, whenever you're a kid, how did your mom treat food? How'd your dad treat food? That's probably what you're doing. And then, like, if mealtime is a constant fight with you, your spouse, and your child, this is where you start the conversation. Hey, what was your childhood like with this? Because maybe that's something worth exploring here. And it hopefully should make you be able to come together on a subject as opposed to dig in your heels more and say, I'm not moving on this subject.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Absolutely. Well, and and what you just highlighted too is if that does happen, if your walls go up, or if you're like, no, it has to be this way, or this is how I know it, then we're hitting at something more than just food. Like we are hitting at this reactivity, this like need to be in control, or like, what would happen if it wasn't like that? What are you scared of if that's gonna happen? And so there's like there's a whole section at the beginning of the book that's like, I recognize we have the privilege to even talk about these things where a lot of the time our parents didn't for intersectionality, many different reasons. And so if we are talking about it and we come up to a question that feels really tricky or sticky, or our partner gets reactive and we don't want to get reactive, then it's like, cool, why don't we take this to a couple therapist and we can really get at the meat of what's going on here? Because you're doing a relationship a favor to dig into this stuff now before we're five, 10 years down the line, and now we actually resent each other, but we forget why.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah. And I think from what I can tell from being married and knowing other married couples, if you can continue to stay curious about each other and each other's mental space, it can it really helps your relationship. So I think you've created an entire book of questions of how to be curious about your partner's mental space and about your child's mental space as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Mm-hmm. Exactly. That's my hope is just stay curious, keep talking to one another. Because when we stop talking is when things can go bad.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

I don't know how to continue a conversation with someone if they're like, nope, this is what it is. And I'm like, well, now I'm gonna keep asking you questions until you budge. And this is gonna be a heck of a lot more annoying. So just just budge. That'll let me I'm gonna I'm gonna out question you. So here we go. So that's how I'm pestersome, so that's fun.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Yeah, it's it's tough when we have our own viewpoints and we can be so open and we can, you know, you can have a partner who buys this book and is like, oh my gosh, this is so exciting. I get to get know my partner, and our partners are like, No, I don't want to talk to you about this. And like that can also be hard where you're like, Absolutely, well, I really wanted this. This is an opportunity for us to get to know each other better and show up for our kids. And so again, there's a deeper issue.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

That can we talk about that with a professional in the room?

SPEAKER_03 42:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

And it can it can open up and it can be very sensitive because it can highlight a lot of cracks in your relationship or in yourself as well. So it's quite an exposing book.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

It is, but gently exposing. I don't you're you're just like, hey, how do you feel about this? And I feel like if I ask someone, how do you feel about this? and it makes them have a breakdown, I'm like, oh, you really need to talk about this, is what I assume. Like, let me just give you a hug and like we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Yeah, yeah. That's such a compassionate approach. But absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Before we wrap up, before I ask you like five fun questions to wrap up the episode and all that, is there anything else you want to make sure to highlight from the book? Anything else you want to make sure to say about it?

SPEAKER_02 42:42

I guess I would just say you took the words right out of my mouth, but we need to keep staying curious about one another, keep having conversations. When we have kids, it's no longer just about us. We are a big part of the picture too, but we are raising kids who are watching everything that we're doing. And it's not how do I not mess up? It's I'm gonna mess up all the time, a lot. How do I repair it? How do I sink into accountability? How do I show up with my partner? How do I show my kids what does it look like to show up for your partner and not fall into traditional gender roles that may lead to resentment if that's not a household that we want to have? Like it's our kids are always watching. And so, not like a scary big brother is watching type of thing, but a let's use this as an opportunity to grow, to learn, to make their childhood, to make their lives different. What we had. So that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

I I think I will usually try to remind dads of uh that like one of the biggest privileges and anxieties of being a parent is you get to define what someone's normal is. So make sure the normal you're defining is is a good one, basically. Figure out the work you need to do, figure out what you're holding on to and what pain you're transferring to other people in your house or your life and figure it out because you are going to determine normal for your family and for your kids and that's a really big power and you should take it really seriously.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Absolutely agree. Beautifully said. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Um okay so to wrap up the episode I saw fun I have like fun icebreaker questions. So the first one is did you have any backup names for your kids? Like did you have any names so you almost named them.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

I did yes for my daughter I was gonna go with Bella and for my son I was gonna go with hmm I forget now. I think it was gonna be like Benny or something cute like that. Definitely not with different names.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Did you not go with Bella because you live close to Washington and Pacific Northwest and the amount of Twilight references would have been too much.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Hilarious no it's just because another name um another name won and it was a character from the Game of Thrones that we were like this is a strong badass portrayal of a girl. So this is where we're gonna go with next question.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Do you have a favorite like TV or movie mom?

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Hmm I love the main character from Working Moms. I forget her name now but she's got like the long black hair she's a mom but she also is like a she's a businesswoman and she shows how you can be a lot of things at once and still connect to your community and still be there for your friends and still stand up for yourself and not have to be a people pleaser. I like her. She's cool that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

I think we watched the first season of that and then forgot to watch the rest of them but enjoyed every episode I love that with TV and being a parent of I really like this show. Are you gonna ever watch it again? I don't got time for that. I'm not doing that yes it's true. Next question what's your replacement curse word? Like what's your go-to like you stub your toe someone cuts you off in traffic you want to yell something do you yell the curse word or do you say something else?

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Well the curse word that I use is I mean I guess it's a curse word in the UK one of my best friends is from the UK so I say tits a lot. I'll be like ah tits and it's just hilarious. And I actually got my son a hat that says hold your tits or something like that calm your tits.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Calm your tits.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yes yes calm your tits that's it yeah that's that's my word that's awesome that's that's the first time that one's ever been used. I need to have more European and international guests is what I'm learning. Next question what is like one of your favorite like toys to play with your kids or like activities kinetic sand.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Really it's so messy. Are you serious?

SPEAKER_02 46:37

It's such a mess I know I know it's very messy and it also is like just watching the little pieces of sand fall over I feel like my mind just stops when I it's it's almost like those lava lamps from the 90s that we would get lost in. I feel like I can get lost in kinetic sand good for you.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

That is it's it's fun. It is sweet it's very tactile but there's sometimes when I watch my kids play with it where then I turn more into the mindset of what I have to clean up after they're done playing with it. Yeah and I'm not dying is like explore be creative. I'm like can you just do it over the bin or like keep it in this area? That'd be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Fair fair yeah that's one of the reasons I got a cordless dice and I invested because I'm like I'm actually I enjoy vacuuming now so I'm like I get to use it.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

What what do you enjoy about vacuuming? Is it like just because it does it calm you does the watching literally something get clean in front of you and that dopamine hit help you yes that's exactly it. And then last question is what is your least favorite like kids show is there any show that your kids watch or movie where you're like man I really don't like this show.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

This show really annoys me well it well literally just happened last night. My kids have been really into watching Little Red Riding Hood or Three Little Pigs but the ones on YouTube that are AI made are the wolf is terrifying. Yeah because they're all scary they're all actually very scary and so going to bed last night both of my kids were like is the wolf gonna get me and I was like that's good wolf we're never watching this again. So that made me upset because I mean this is supposed to be a kid's tour but the wolf genuinely is scary. Yeah and I don't like it. So that's what I don't like.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Yeah we try to we don't you our kids can only do anything YouTube related if we're in the room with them because of that fear of they'll be like I want to watch someone put Legos together and then it's like AI Legos and it's a demon and you're like this shouldn't be an option who made this content I know I need to switch to YouTube kids or something.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Half that limit there.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

It's on your constant mental to-do list of like it only takes three seconds but I don't got the three seconds no exactly I'll forget about it as soon as we finish talking about it you will you've already forgotten about it. That's what's so funny. Yeah I'm gone um and then last thing for you is just like moment for self-promotion like um how do we find your like book uh your Instagram if you I know you are a therapist and practicing therapist like what regions do you do all that good stuff promote yourself of course website novacare therapy.ca my Instagram is at novacare therapy I have all of my all of the links to this book as well as I've written a therapy journal and a guide for supporting your partner postpartum that's the guide is free.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

The therapy buddy journal is on Amazon and then same page parenting the book we're talking about today can be found on Amazon, Barnes and Noble chapters, Kindle, Audible, maybe your local bookstore perhaps but yeah I I'm a therapist I work within Canada and right now Canada wide it depends on the province you live in whether or not I can work with you if your province is regulated or not for psychotherapy but that information is on my website as well whether or not depending on what province you live in I can work with you.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Nice. Did you read your audio book or did someone else read it for the audiobook?

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Someone else read it her name is Sonia Simmons and she's an incredible narrator. And so yeah I didn't read my own book but it's a different it's a different skill set it yeah yeah yeah and she crushed it so I'm glad that she she got to do it.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

That's awesome. For the most part thank you so much for talking and having a conversation with me.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

It was a pleasure thank you so much it was nice chatting.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Nice talking to you as well and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day you too thanks bye bye bye thank you so much for listening to the episode make sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube at the Imperfect Dance Podcast. And make sure to give us five stars for every listen to us. Music, editing and production is all done by me. Make sure to tune in on Mondays and most Thursdays for episodes. This podcast is part of the Never at Face Network. Make sure to go to never at face network dot com to learn more about