The Imperfect Dads Podcast

Episode 247 | Jennifer McCaffrey Painter

• Devon Neisen • Season 4 • Episode 48

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0:00 | 55:22

On this episode we have on painter and artist Jennifer McCaffrey. 


Jennifer and I have been friends since kindergarten! So she is a life long friend.  If you have any life long friends, you know how much time goes by between talking to each other.  When you have a podcast, you just make them be on the show to catch up about life.


But really, we talked about Jennifer getting ready to have a 4th child, buying snacks at COSTCO, knowing kids won’t eat some of the snacks of COSTCO, her love of space, how motherhood makes her deal with her perfectionism and people pleasing, how she started painting, decided to do painting full time and being comfortable with a career change!


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This podcast is part of the Never A Phase Network, follow them on instagram at @neveraphasenetwork and check out their podcasts like Emo Kids Anonymous  Wasting Time Podcast Certified Fangirl and The Ska Mailman

SPEAKER_04

Welcome to the Imperfect Dads Podcast. This is your host, Devin. We believe dads care deeply about their family and kids, but they don't always have a space to discuss what their life looks like. Our podcast is a space for dads to discuss the ups and downs of fatherhood and how they feel like they're holding it together, or how they're not. Thank you for joining us for this episode. This podcast is part of the Never A Face Network. Make sure to follow me on Instagram or go to the website neverface network.com. On this episode, we have one painter and artist, Jennifer McCaffrey. Jennifer and I have been friends since kindergarten. So she's a lifelong friend. If you have any lifelong friends, you know how much time goes by between talking to each other. And when you have a podcast, you just make them be on the show to catch up about life. But really, we talked about Jennifer getting ready to have a child buying snacks at Costco. Knowing kids want to eat some of the snacks from Costco, her love of space, how Motherhood makes her deal with her perfectionism and people-pleasing tendencies. How she started painting, deciding to do painting full-time. And what it was like to decide to change careers after you already had one established. Just like one more thing. Oh, my bad. Okay, so I'll I'll start with this comment of just, okay, so I've known you since kindergarten. If I were to put a title on our friendship, it would be From Bowl Cuts and Plaid Skirts to Adulthood would be the title of our overarching friendship arch, just so you know.

SPEAKER_03

I would, you know, I wish I could have joined you in the bowl cut. I never had a bowl cut era like you did.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, do you?

SPEAKER_03

Well Okay.

SPEAKER_04

You did have the plaid skirt era though. So I mean that's like about as early 90s.

SPEAKER_03

And I stick to that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Do you ever wonder? Do you remember like being a kid? My parents didn't do this, but it's definitely a thing. Going to like the department store and taking the family photos. Like, do you ever want to somehow bring that back? Like, stop with the really artsy family photos and stuff next to family like fun falteries, but like this go back to Sears. Let's revive a Sears for family photos.

SPEAKER_03

Even like I mean, I remember going into Walmart, and at the very front, when you walk in, like to the left, there's the photo studio, and you could just decide. You could be like, Well, I'm here with my two-year-old and their face is pretty clean, so let's do it.

unknown

Let's go.

SPEAKER_04

Let's do it. That's the and like you could change like do you remember like the backgrounds would like you'd be sitting there like holding a paintbrush on like a step stool or something, and then it'd be like a galaxy behind you? That's the nostalgia.

SPEAKER_03

I love art. That's who I am.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. And you love your kids. So if you can combine them all.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I feel like that kind of you that was so specific, Devin, but you kind of actually just nailed who I am with that photo prompt background thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Currently, really into space and art.

SPEAKER_04

Everyone are you really?

SPEAKER_03

Kinda. Yeah. I love that stuff.

SPEAKER_04

I didn't realize how many people in Colorado work on spaceships. Like I knew there are a lot of engineering jobs out here, but like I have a guy in our neighborhood, he didn't work on the Artemis, but one of the guys he works with, like the suspension mechanics for like whenever they hit the water, his entire job was for like a decade working on like test running it, making sure whenever they land, how does it absorb all the shock? And I'm like, that is I I I have a new respect for space launches because I realize they literally obsess over every single detail, and it's kind of fascinating.

SPEAKER_03

I love that so much. It's just so great to see competency in action, you know? Really a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_04

It is. It is. And just people thinking things through and wondering if I do this, what happens next. And that's just really Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's it is like the most soothing thing in today's climate. I think that's why everyone was so into it.

SPEAKER_04

I will relate this to parenting because pretty much all of my life is looking at small humans and being like, you know, if you do this, this happens next. And just them hopefully not doing the next step because they understand consequences, and that's not a commonly shared taught thing, is what I feel like some days.

SPEAKER_03

I couldn't agree more. We're all about we're all about the natural, the natural consequences in our house. Like, okay, you don't want to wear shoes. It's the middle of winter. All right. You'll figure out real quick why we do usually insist on that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Works really well.

SPEAKER_04

Sometimes, I don't know. I'm sure you also have like at least one or two stubborn kids who's like, I'm not cold. And you're like, I can like your teeth are chattering. Like, I know you're cold. You're freezing. Please just put on some damn socks.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. Yeah, a hundred percent. But I also feel like maybe that's a rite of passage that they have to see to the other side. Like, as long as they're not, their toes aren't gonna actually fall off. I'm like, well, if you want to tell me you're not cold. All right.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I don't believe you at all. I feel bad. I feel bad for my kids because uh as a Taurus, like I'm just like, I will outstubborn you on everything. So like, don't please let's not start this fight. Please don't. It's gonna be a bad thing. That's right. It's in you.

SPEAKER_03

It's in your DNA. You know, the one thing that I do find that I really draw the line on is going potty. I'm like, all right, but if I know that you need to go, I will pull out all the bribes so that you'll do it before we leave. Like, if you say you don't want to wear a coat, I'm gonna pack one for you. I'll tell you fine. And then when you do finally cave, you know, three hours from now, I will be your hero. Because I'll whip it out, be like, look what I've got. I'm a great mom.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But the potty thing is a hard line. Like, nope, not dealing with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

The other day, Josh was like, when we get there, do they have bathrooms? And I was like, just use the bathroom here. And he was like, Oh, okay. And I was like, Oh, that was an easy, easy discussion. That's great.

SPEAKER_02

It's beautiful that that worked out.

SPEAKER_04

It was very sweet. It worked out great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, okay. I haven't asked you yet. Let's do um how many kids you got, ages. You can also do, you know, I mean, like you're pregnant. So I mean, like, you've got the fourth one coming. So kids, ages, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_03

All right. So I've got Mac who's seven, Nell, who's five, and Mary, who's three. They would say almost eight, five and a half, three and a half, to be clear.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03

And one on the way that's due in August, August 7th. So we're gonna have a wild house of like two Scorpios, two Leos, maybe, possibly, probably. So that'll be a fun little den. And as someone who's like very naturally, like I am absolutely a recovering people pleaser, perfectionist, passive by nature. To be in a household with a bunch of very strong personalities that do not take it from anybody.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Is so humble.

SPEAKER_04

I love that your kids are bringing you on this journey where it's almost like if you say the polite thing, they just don't take your shit. There's like, no, mom, what do you actually want? Like, tell me, like, just tell me. And I love that for you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, my son will straight up just he's the seven-year-olds, almost eight, almost eight.

SPEAKER_01

And he will just be like, no, I don't want to.

SPEAKER_03

No, I don't want to play with them. I don't want to do that. I don't really like them. I'm like, you know, it's like so triggering to me as someone who wants to make everyone happy. And I really have had to retrain my brain to be like, that's not an incorrect way to live in the world. It's just different from me. It's just very honest. It's very, very honest. And where am I lying all the time? Am I just walking around trying to make everyone happy and lying all the time? This is the this is the internal work that I've had to do as a mom of very direct kids.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. Well, because it's like, I remember we have if you have like a neighborhood kid or they go to school and like that kid pushes, or like they aren't good with their emotions, so they more physical than like using words. And then your kid is like, I don't want to play with that kid, they'll punch me. And I'm like, Well, I don't think you should play with that kid either.

SPEAKER_03

It's like, oh that's actually a really good reason. Yeah. Thanks for telling me that. And maybe I shouldn't just default to no, no, no, no, no, no. You need to do nice thing is, or like the polite thing is what you should do.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

But that's also probably growing, that's a lot of things. It's like growing up in the Midwest, growing up in an evangelical Christian household. That's a lot of things that, you know, to untangle there.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, I mean, you do know that child will now burn in hell because you weren't nice to them. Like you didn't show them Jesus. So they're they're currently burning in hell because you weren't polite to one small child. So I forgot that's I'm sorry. There's actually a list of people that have gone to hell because of you being slightly rude and honest. And that's just what you have to deal with when you die. I'm so sorry, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_02

You're just speaking my nightmares.

SPEAKER_04

I relate to you on that. I also have strong people-pleasing tendencies of just thinking, like, oh, if I'm nice to this person, like I assume if I can make someone feel validated and seen, then it'll be helpful to them, and then they'll be like more open, then they'll be able to like deal with their shit. And like that's not reality, is what I've found. And I also have to untrain myself from thinking if I'm nice to someone, maybe they'll grow in some way.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Yeah, you've got that helper in you. Like you always want to be the one. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02

No. But you know, know thyself.

SPEAKER_04

Learning what's your responsibility is something that's like fascinating to teach, to be like, hey, what's like um, I don't know, how much of life now is like learning a healthy boundary for yourself, learning whenever you've ever extended yourself and whenever you've um taken on a responsibility that you never needed to take on is uh very much as I get older something I'm constantly understanding and dealing with.

SPEAKER_03

For sure. I'm actually really excited to have this fourth baby because I think it's gonna, I don't know, having three leveled me up in that way, where it's like, well, I don't actually have any time for any of this anymore. Any of this like yeah, nonsense, playing around extra stuff, trying to please people. There's there's literally no time. And I feel like with four, I'm gonna really it's gonna be my path to enlightenment and self-actualization, pretty sure. Pretty sure. Parents of four, you can comment back to tell me if I'm right.

SPEAKER_04

Right. I talked to a dad where like we related on really liking sad songs and being like emo and wanting to stare off into the rain and stuff. And then you have kids and you're like, I don't have to I don't have time for this. Like literally, like you're sitting there and you're like, I just want to listen to Damian Rice on vinyl, and your kid's like, what is this? And you're like, oh, not the time. All right, never mind. Never mind, my bad.

SPEAKER_03

So they're more like, mom, mom, mom. I said, it said, what do parrots eat? Mom.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

You ruined this bridge. That's what I want to say to my kids from Belgium. Right out of it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Not enjoy this song anymore.

SPEAKER_04

It's just like, don't you understand that Elephant by Damien Rice, it's very spragged vocal for the entire verses, and then for the bridge, he hones it in to be very focused to bring the point home. Lingo's back to vocal range is crazy. Don't you understand? And they're like, give me the damn milk, Dad. And you're like, all right, that's fine. That's probably hard.

SPEAKER_02

This is the wrong banana.

SPEAKER_04

I grabbed the green one. Don't we eat green ones? You're like, no, just I just wanted five minutes to listen to a song.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, sorry. I did talk to someone one time who had studied a lot of Buddhism and Buddhist like practices and thought. And they were like, Well, I learned from a teacher once that parents actually don't really need to meditate that much because they're already doing it all the time, probably. And that made me feel great. I was like, oh awesome. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I'll take it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Do you do any like actual meditation? I've done it before. It's not a normal practice for me. I find meditation fascinating. I am just really bad at it because I live in a Western world with a Western mindset and think I should be accomplishing things at all times.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh. I'll tell you what, meditation for me is exactly like prayer, and I think they're very similar in that it's my emergency lever. For example, every time I've had uh the past two years, we talked about this a little at the beginning of the past years. I've had like these back-to-back orthopedic injuries, which is just not fun to not be able to walk around when you're trying to take care of three kids and work and all that stuff. And each time I've had this whole crisis of self where I hate asking for help. I hate being a burden on anyone because I'm an oldest daughter who does it all herself. And really being capable is a huge pillar, central pillar of my personality. And when I come to this point where I'm forced to accept that I'm mortal, I have to slow down. I have to ask for help because I can't walk, can't carry things when I'm on crutches. Each time, the only thing that's gotten me through that is meditation. I love the headspace app. It's great. But I think it's the only thing that I can equate to like it brings my brain back to a more grounded and neutral set point in the same way that exercise usually does for me. And when you can't exercise, then it's a really great tool. So I love it. And I wish that I were disciplined enough to do it when I'm not laid up in bed with a splint on. But I do think that um, I don't know, maybe maybe I can go back to what that Buddhist friend said, like it's okay because I'm parenting all the time, and that's kind of meditating.

SPEAKER_04

Right?

SPEAKER_03

Meditating in the moment.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It feels like having a bunch of like knowing a lot of healthy recipes, but not making them until you feel fat, until you feel like you're uncomfortable in your own body. And like, I need to eat healthier. And it's like, you could have been making this meal like for months, man. Like, what do you like? You don't have to wait until this moment.

SPEAKER_03

It's just as easy to buy the baby carrots as it is to buy the Cheez Its, but Cheez Its. I love Cheez Its.

SPEAKER_04

What's your okay? How's your this is one of my favorite questions to ask people is how's your snack drawer game? Like for the kids and stuff. Like, how's your pride in your snack drawer?

SPEAKER_03

Man, okay. I have a really like hot and cold relationship with Costco right now, where what happens is, yeah, it this is this is very related to my relationship with Costco, my relationship to my snack drawer.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So I'm saying not only you're just jumping into me to be like, not only you have a relationship with Costco, like as if like you have like a pull, like a push and pull with one of the biggest like grocery stores.

SPEAKER_03

It's a situation ship. And the reason why is because if I go there alone, I make great choices for my family and our snack drawer rocks. Yeah. If I go there with my children, they will convince me that they want freeze-dried mushrooms because they're delicious in the store when you're getting the sample. Happy because it's currently in my snack drawer. And they're like, We need, we love it so much so that I like put it back on the shelf and I was like, No, you don't. You think you do because you just had a sample, but you're never gonna eat that at home. And then they cried until I went back and got it. No, the five and three-year-old. I know. So I had to go like crying kids in a cart in Costco, had to go back and get the mushrooms, which I was like, they will never eat this.

SPEAKER_01

Never, ever.

SPEAKER_03

Guess what? I was right.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

So my snack drawer is mixed, and it really depends on who's done grocery shopping with me most recently.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Eventually we're gonna have to let those mushrooms go.

SPEAKER_04

You will. But there's gonna, you know, the second you do is whenever they'll open up the snack door and be like, hey mom, I was about to eat those mushrooms. Do you know where they are? Where did they?

SPEAKER_03

And I'll pretend like I don't. No. Uh yeah. Have you seen them? Hmm. I wonder where we put them.

SPEAKER_04

Huh.

unknown

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know. Actually, I think we might have planted them outside. You should go spend the next hour looking for them outside.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe they'll grow into fresh mushrooms.

SPEAKER_04

I love thinking about what our snack drawers would have been like because like it's like one thing I constantly think of is like, uh, yeah, like my kids don't like gushers. They don't drink soda. And I'm like, that's good. Like, I'm not, I'm not gonna try to undo this. So, like, this just let's just drink all the sparkling water. In 10 years, we'll find out how it was killing us. But it's better than gushers, fruit by the foot, and kudos.

SPEAKER_03

And tang. Remember tang?

SPEAKER_04

Tang, yeah, yeah. Oh, you weren't, can you get out of outer space like for five seconds?

SPEAKER_03

Like, I did bring it right back around. That was intentional.

SPEAKER_04

You did. You brought it to space to Tang and Well done. Well done. Respect. Do you is your like, okay, so I know you're switching up your career stuff where you're gonna be more full-time painter and everything. Whenever you aren't painting and doing this stuff, are you just hanging out with your kids? Because I mean, your oldest is in school, your second one is like as a best start kindergarten, right? Or are they already in that's right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, you got it. So she'll start in the fall, and then I've got the three-year-old who's still daycare age, and then the new one on the way. So, yeah, when I I'm kind of part-time mom, mom at home, part-time painter right now. I recently, very recently, like weeks ago, just said goodbye to a, you know, decade plus long career as a physician assistant in reconstructive surgery. And I currently am keeping up on my licensure. I don't know when will be the right time to go back to that. Uh, it was a job that I really scratched a lot of itches for me in many ways. I love working with patients. I really enjoyed the um mostly breast cancer patient population that I worked with felt, especially as they get older, more and more like all those patients were me. You know, they're they're moms, they're people who have busy, active lives that have been completely interrupted in a way that they didn't anticipate. And so they're dealing with a lot of social, emotional, logistical challenges along with their cancer diagnosis. And I think that I will really miss a lot of the precision and the focus that I got working that job and being in the OR was that was really a satisfying part of my life. And at the same time, it was the most inflexible career I could have picked in the free kids. You can't uh outsource surgery and you can't work from home and you can't interrupt it in the middle to go pick up a sick kid. A lot of that is really, it's been challenging for a long time. And I think going into uh going into kid number four, I knew I needed to have one job. And the painting story, I'll give you like the elevator version of that. So I've always really had these like two sides of my brain. There's like this precise type A analytical surgery side. And then the other side, which is like everything else. And my love affair with art and with painting really started as a kid, as everyone's does. And then I rediscovered it in college, ended up minoring in fine art, and I would come home from these long shifts as a PA. The beginning of my career, I started out in the emergency department. I would go work a shift, like a 12-hour shift, come home, be completely exhausted and still have this thing in me where I needed to paint. And I would clear off our dining room table and paint, dead tired. And I just couldn't stop doing it. And finally, after my third kid was born, my wonderful husband was like, You really just need to do this because you keep doing it on our dining room table with no time in the dark. Maybe you should try to do it. Uh, he roped me in by being like, just for a little bit, just for a little bit. You know, like when Mary, our third, when Mary's young, when Mary's young, you can just do it for a little bit. Of course, it was like wonderful to finally really dedicate child care hours to something that I'm so passionate about. The biggest gift in my present life, probably, is just the permission to be able to do that. And I've been really fortunate and I've worked hard, and so it's grown. And I think that being able to take it and grow it into something that can help support us and can be a satisfying job feels like a huge accomplishment. And I don't know what to do with all the other parts of myself, but I know that a surgeon I worked with that I really admire once said to me, you know, you can do everything, you just can't do it all at once. So I'm holding on to that right now. Like, right now is my time to have a fourth kid and to pursue the art. And we'll see what the next five and ten years bring. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, pretty much. I am still just so happy because like in general, I also find as I get older, finding what I need someone to look at me and say, Hey, it's good if you do this, like, hey, it's good if you explore this, is like I think why you have a partner, why you have a spouse is because yeah, it is really easy to be like, Oh no, like it's it's actually not a big of a deal. I don't need to rent studio space. We shouldn't spend our budget on studio space. We shouldn't spend money on finding sit or something like that while your husband is looking and being like, just go to just go do it. Like, what's it cost? Like this rearrange, whatever. Because like I would, I would rather you know yourself and this version of yourself and who you become than you piecemealing it together. So like go go do that for you. And know that once you do that for you, you're gonna make this gonna be cool for everyone. This isn't actually just it is you, but it's also like it makes it things better for everyone. So go do that, go explore it.

SPEAKER_03

It really does. And it's been amazing to see. I have been shocked at how many kids really find the story of being an artist as a job really cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Of course they do. That's not, I guess, so surprising, but I think that it's surprising to me that my own kids who more intimately know like my life and what my two jobs were, respect both jobs very equally and see them with the same amount of reverence, which I just wouldn't have, you know, I don't know. We really love to hold up all of our healthcare workers in our society as we should. Art is a lot more nebulous and a lot more of an untrodden path and has uncertain outcomes. And to see the change that it's made in my kids in their, in their looking at options for life is really cool.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, it's a good reminder of what's been embedded in you and what you need to unlearn also. Because yes, if I know someone who's a doctor, a lawyer, and they're like, I'm leaving this position, I'm like, you're leaving security, you're leaving purpose. You've spent that you've spent so much time to go through training to do this. Like, that's not how is that the right decision? And your kids are like, Oh, are you happy? Is this something that's cool? Yeah. Oh, that's great. It's so, it's so simple, and I overcomplicate everything. And that's just good to be aware of.

SPEAKER_03

It's so simple. And it's so uh, it's it's not also, I think what's interesting is that sometimes when I'm talking about like this decision I've made, I think maybe the projected the thing that I project on other people is that they're thinking like, oh, that's so sweet that she like gets to do her hobby. And um, it must be so much easier. And I would say it's definitely easier to get out the door in the morning when you're not trying to make a case start time. Of course, that's way easier. But pursuing something that has an uncertain outcome is more difficult in a lot of other ways. And having the and also I'm way happier. So it's like, it's not even that it necessarily needs to be easier for it to make you happier.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I I think like with creative stuff like it sounds so hippie, it sounds so obnoxious, and I get that. But like whenever you show up to paint, you have an idea of what you want the painting to be. Whenever you sit down to play an instrument, you have an idea of what you want it to be, but you really don't know until you get started. Whereas, like, you if you do surgery on someone, like you've got a whole plan of prior, like you don't wing it when it comes to reconstructive surgery. It's been prepping out, probably lots of consultation. You know, exactly like there's a structure to it that you need to make sure it all gets upheld. Whereas opposed to like, I'm gonna paint, I'm pretty sure it's gonna be about a mountain. I'm not sure which one.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I'll figure, I'll figure it out when I get there's just a drastically different mindset.

SPEAKER_03

Totally. And it's funny because surgery is like you nailed it, it's so precise. You there's actually not a lot of on a on a good day in surgery, there's not a lot of stress. A lot of people are like, oh, surgical job is that's so stressful. It's like if we're doing it right, no, there's like very little stress because you've you're like an airline pilot, like you're ticking all the boxes, you're doing things the exact same way every time. Yeah. Hopefully. There are definitely stressful moments in surgery, but you work hard to make sure that those are very rare. And art is like about cracking yourself open and exploring the unknown. I love the idea that, you know, I paint a lot of landscapes, but really they're all about whatever my internal state is at the time. And the landscapes that are within us, kind of like, you know, very Walt Whitman, the multitudes that we all contain. And I don't know which one's gonna come out. Um but every day I have a pretty good idea, but sometimes you do have to just get started and it shows up while you're working.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I I'm sure you also though can tell, like, um like if you relook at where you're in pain, it's like, oh man, these brush strokes are heavy-handed. I wondered what I was doing. Like, what mentally where was I? Like, I can definitely tell editing podcast episodes, like, oh, I was really needy in this segment here. Like, there's some part of me that wanted a validation from a stranger. And of course, then I course corrected, but like, yeah, you look at your art, whatever your creative output is, yeah, and you're like, oh, that like you notice these little it's I also have some perfectionist tendencies where I look at something I've created and I'm like, oh, I how do I? This is who I was that day. And that is such a fascinating form of self-acceptance that is really hard sometimes.

SPEAKER_03

It's vulnerable in ways that I didn't anticipate when I set out to be like, I really enjoy painting. I'm gonna try to paint. And I didn't anticipate needing to encounter that vulnerability so often. And it turns out it's like a daily practice when you're creating anything. And the like very frustrating part about being a perfectionist, like you touched on too, is being able to throw it out like spaghetti on the wall and know that it isn't it's not saying everything about you. You don't have to justify every little thing and make it a perfect perfect thing that encapsulates who you are and what you make and what you can do. It's it is allowed to be incomplete and just have flaws and not tell the whole story. It's okay. I went, I recently went to see a bunch of art. We took this like moment in time where we were like, all right, all of our kids are out of diapers and no one's napping. We could travel, we could do it. So I went and I saw a bunch of art. It was amazing. And the thing that I was thinking when I was looking at all this like Monet and all these things in museums is like, oh my gosh. Especially when you look at the works that are like lesser known. I love looking at those and thinking about how they're this is gonna sound very, very judgy of me, but how they're not complete and sometimes they're not even that there are like technical issues with them. And as an artist, I think I see them more now. And it's so healing as a creator to look at these works that people have framed in these fancy frames and put in museums that everybody pays to see and to realize it's just like a little part of this artist's story, and it doesn't even come close to like their masterwork or whatever. You know, I mean it's just just a little piece.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You are you're talking about B-sides for artists, basically. You're talking about the deep cuts for artists. You're going back to the first album, song five, that no one's ever really paid attention to is what you're doing with artists. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And they recorded it and they put it on an album. And I'm so glad they did, right? It gives us all permission.

SPEAKER_04

It does. But it is, no, that's cool. That's um, I I don't know if this will relate to you or not, but like um, if I do music for the podcast, I usually do it myself because I've had it before where I've tried to use friends' music. I've gotten there and like verbally have said this is cool, but then I post it then YouTube where someone's like, hey, you can't post this. Then I'm like, well, crap now, I've taken blah blah blah blah blah. So I'll just record something on guitar and say and I will do it like in two takes because if I do it in much more than that, I'm going to over like I'm gonna hear everything I did wrong. So I've learned to be like, just do it. Just shut up and do it. You're getting in your own way. Have you does that relate to you at all? Where you're just kind of like, all right, man, like stop. Like you're this is gonna connect. Just go out there and do it. You're okay, cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. In fact, I like I don't know, my art journey, like I have this really, really perfectionistic side of me that wants to make everything rendered perfectly. Like I want to get all of if I'm painting a tree. The art student in me is really obsessed with like the exact hue, saturation, value of this part of the bark and how it relates to the next part, and how do I do it and make it perfectly the depth is just right. And you know, that's fascinating. I love looking at art that's that's so you can see the sweat behind it. That's a whole like form of art. It's fascinating to look at. But the things that I really emotionally respond to aren't that at all. That's personal. I mean, everyone likes different kinds of art, but I love abstract expressionism. I love a piece that just makes me feel something. And for me to be a creator of something of in that genre of visual art is a completely different experience. And it's often better if I leave it as raw as possible. I'll ruin it if I try to go back in and perfect it and change and adjust. Like I ruin it. I absolutely ruin the feeling it goes in the trash. I've done it multiple times. Where I make something I love, and then I'm like, oh, but if I just fixed it, like this little part could be better. Nope. It's always worse.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. Yep. I I'll try to do that with like adding like keys or sense behind them. Like, oh, so make the song feel more full. And I'm like, it's distracting and noisy. Stop it. And I'm like, cool, just get more bear because my mind loves to overcomplicate things. And it's really it's a great thing to have kids because they keep everything so simple. And I just like to make things messy. It's how I feel someday. It's a harsh criticism of self, but it's also feels true at the same time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I can relate so much to that.

SPEAKER_04

Well, do you okay, so like this say it also like I don't know. I think art parenting is phenomenal because it's just makes you constantly aware of uh new ways in which you need to be accepting and loving of yourself. And I think like it's that's if anyone is like gonna have a kid, I'm like, oh man, you are going to like find new depths of love and self-understanding. I really hope you're on a journey of self-love and understanding because you're gonna be pointed, you so much of yourself is gonna reflect it back to you, and you're gonna realize that you're okay. And that's kind of terrifying whenever you first get into it.

SPEAKER_03

And when you think that it's gonna be a big project of perfecting yourself, and it turns out it's accepting yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Where you actually grow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Pretty much. Okay. I haven't asked you much about your fourth child. How are you anticipating having a fourth child? How's your mental space with that? How do you feel? Besides like the whole birth and labor with a destroyed leg and all that stuff. How do you feel about you can have like four kids running around the house? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I'm really hoping that it is uh I'm hoping that it feels way easier than the other ones, which it might be a little delusional. But it is. We did have a daughter who had a lot of feeding issues. She had um feeding aversion, she had to be tube fed for a long time. And that was a whole journey, and that was a very hard transition. Of course, it was a hard transition. And so then the baby that was my second daughter. So then the baby that came after that, I was like, oh, awesome. She eats great. Like this feels way easier.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03

But it was also having three kids. And I think it'll probably be my headspace is I hope, balanced in that I have unlike having my first child, where I had a lot of expectations for myself, I have very few expectations for myself of this one. The expectation is I pour my love into this new baby the best that I can. I keep the baby fed and warm and and attended to, and I keep my other kids fed and warm and attended to, and everyone stays safe and um, you know, deals with their inevitable disappointments about the lack of constant energy that I can give everything all at once in a way that makes sense for their age and temperament. That's my that's how I think it'll actually go. It'll be like a big mix because people will uh like my other kids will love this baby. They're awesome siblings, they're gonna love this baby so much, and they're gonna be super disappointed when I'm not able to take them on a solo bike ride uh at 10 a.m. because I can't, you know, I can't. Um I've got a baby now. Can't do that. The baby needs stuff, other kids need stuff, but they already do feel those disappointments and we already deal with that. And I think perhaps the I think there's no wrong, there's no wrong kind of family for sure, but the benefit of having a larger family, which I feel like with three kids, you and I already fall in that category for most families in America, statistically. And so I think the baked-in benefit of that is just that they live in a world where they have no other choice but to deal with their disappointments on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I think that it'll probably be a great mix of that for the rest of my kids. I'm really excited to have another baby, though. I think that the uh like the romantic mom in me is just super pumped to go into this fourth round and know that no matter how hard or easy it is, the baby is gonna be perfect for our family. Yeah. And we're gonna pour our love into this baby, and it's our caboose. So this is sort of the last round that I get to that. And I think that that makes all of the hard stuff easier.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I I think that's how we felt with Josh was very much like, okay, this is gonna be our last one. Like with this is it, we're done. And then you yeah, you approach everything differently. For our first two kids, I still worked whenever Heather was pregnant, and whenever the baby was born. It wasn't until like Magnolia turned one that actually quit working. So yeah, for Josh, it was like, all right, let's not do this right, but like this is our chance to be like, all right, here's where I wish we would have done this this way. Now let's actually have a chance to do it this way. Yeah. And just freaking hopefully be present for it, be there for it. Because it's it's what you want. So don't mentally be somewhere else because what you the life you're living is the life you wanted. So like be here for it, you know?

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. And it's gonna be uncomfortable, and it's still what you wanted. And it's yeah, and I think that that maybe is the biggest gift of going into round four, is just knowing what I know about well, this is the type of discomfort I'm gonna feel. I'm gonna be very tired. But you know what? I've been very tired before. And it's all okay. Like it comes back around. I'm not gonna always have this like baby. That's what I'm not always gonna have. Everything is always changing. And so that's the gift is knowing what the gift is.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, pretty much. And it's the present. Sorry, that was awful. That was an awful dad joke. I'm so sorry. That was you're getting just so good at those.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my god, it is just I need to I should I try to do the whatever arm thing for it. Like it was this of a sitcom. I should have done more deadpan just to see if you got that I was trying to do a joke or not would have been good. But I couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_03

Well, notes for next time, you know. We all have for next time.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, I I'm gonna start wrapping down the episode because I'm gonna actually try to keep it to an hour and actually feel like I'm somewhat professional and know what I'm doing. So that's you know the hope of this.

SPEAKER_02

So awesome.

SPEAKER_04

Jennifer, first of all, here's the here's not one of the five questions. I will always only call you Jennifer. I can't call you Jen. Do most people actually call you Jen, or are you Jennifer to other people? Because you're always you've always been Jennifer, you always be a Jennifer to me.

SPEAKER_03

You know what? My brand name is Jennifer McCaffrey Art. So I think I thank you for your for your loyalty to that.

SPEAKER_04

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_03

Jen's just like fewer syllables. You know, it's for all us lazy people.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. I am all for taking the long way and much more complicated way to doing things. That's basically what I'm trying to communicate.

SPEAKER_02

Spinning.

SPEAKER_04

That's fair. That's fair. It's like this, just do it. Just make it more complicated for some reason and assume it brings you love for some reason. Anyway, so Jennifer, how I end every episode is ask every guest a series of five questions. First question is what were backup names? What were backup names for your kids? What were the other very Irish-sounding names that you almost named your kids?

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh, yeah. So yeah, we have Cormac, Nell, and Mary. I love Ruby, and my husband loves Rudy. I think it's because we really obsessed with the nickname Rue, which one of my best friends has a dog named Rue, and I still love it. I'm like, this just I don't know why. It's really cute. That's the main one that I can give you. Rue.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. Do you okay, for your fourth kid, have you found out gender, all that?

SPEAKER_03

Nope. Mystery.

unknown

Oh.

SPEAKER_03

But I'm getting, I don't know. I'll go down on record saying I'm getting boy vibes, but I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. I think naming boys is harder than naming girls. Do you agree with us in this?

SPEAKER_03

Sure. Oh my gosh. It's way harder. I have a list of 50 girl names I love and maybe two boy names.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. Yep. Well, it's like girl names are like whimsical and charming and fun and cute, and boy names are just like quirky or devon with an O, whichever one you're going for. You know?

SPEAKER_02

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Which is a life of being mispronounced and misspelled by everyone who's never met you before. It's just kind of what you could set your kid up for.

SPEAKER_03

That is, you know, I mean, I do feel like your parents probably gave you the gift of resilience there. Like, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's that's where they were going for. They were like, you know what? This is what we're saying.

SPEAKER_03

That's what they're going for.

SPEAKER_04

We we know we're going to raise the smart ass. So let's just go ahead and start. Let's just start. He's gonna have to deal with people saying his name, Ron Constantine.

SPEAKER_03

You're gonna bake it in. He'll never escape it. This feels correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Correct, yep. And then never mind. Anyway, next question. Who's your okay? So I might change this to more book related because I feel like you read a ton of books. I've always read a ton of books. If you had to choose like favorite TV movie or book literary mom, who would that be? Or what comes to mind first?

SPEAKER_03

I love Molly Weasley from Harry Potter a lot.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that tracks. Yep, yep, that tracks. Yep.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe it's because we just got chickens this year too. I'm really leaning into the uh, you know, big family crazy yard. Love that vibe.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So that's my answer.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. I just want to like, do you guys have a reputation on the neighborhood yet? I've just kind of like, oh god, they're having their kid. They got chickens.

SPEAKER_03

Like, what the chickens frequently escape to the front yard, and then our neighbors will be like, hey, there's a chicken. We're like, thanks. Then we send my five-year-old to get it because she's the best chicken catcher. And so the chaos is already full steam. We definitely have a reputation, and I'm here for it. It's good for me. It's humbling me.

SPEAKER_04

I really love that one of your kids is the chicken whisperer. Like, okay, guys, we got which chicken is it? We got it. Who's the who's got the best relationship with that chicken in which they can talk them into coming back home?

SPEAKER_03

She was a, she was absolutely a farmer in another life, this girl. She just, yeah, absolutely. And she's hilarious about how much she loves the chickens. Like she sings them the lullaby from Frozen 2. And then one of our chickens did pass. It was a, you know, our first chicken death. And she, I was the most nervous to tell her about it. And she was the one that was like, Are we going to have chicken soup? I was like, What? You're not devastated right now.

SPEAKER_02

You're wondering if we're gonna eat the chicken.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my god. Wait, wait, wait. So that also implies that you or Pete would know how to butcher a chicken and prep it and have it ready to go, which is also next level.

SPEAKER_03

Real nice. But she was like, I'm glad that she saw me as so capable, you know? Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the I I really respect the confidence that your daughter has in your chicken cooking skinning abilities.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Yeah. Unfortunately, we didn't know the cause of death, so we had to head on like, well, this chicken could be diseased. We gotta wait it out and see. Uh so no, we are not having chicken soup.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

But we can have a chicken funeral. So we, you know, we met in the middle.

SPEAKER_04

I really like the thought of you being really literal with your daughter and being like, no, seriously, kid, like I don't, I mean, we could have diseases, it could have so many things wrong with it.

SPEAKER_03

And like we just That's exactly what I told her. And asked, we can go to Costco.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_03

We're gonna go to Costco and I'll let you get whatever snacks you want that'll sit in our pantry. Exactly. Untouched.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe, maybe the chickens would like mushrooms.

SPEAKER_03

Actually, I think that's I'm gonna feed the chickens the mushrooms today. That's my goal. That's my plan. I cannot look at those mushrooms anymore. Clearly, they're haunting me enough that I came on a podcast and talked about it.

SPEAKER_04

It did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The joys of trying to people please your children and fully knowing they will not be happy with this decision. It's great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. What? Yeah. What is that? I should untack that in my next therapy session.

SPEAKER_04

Well, maybe. Maybe. Okay. Next, next question What's your go to replacement curse word? I don't feel like I think of you as someone who curses a lot. What's like you stub your toe, chicken? Escapes and it won't come back. What do you say? Add that chicken. What do you scream at that chicken?

SPEAKER_03

You know, I wish that I had a replacement. I just say all the words quietly. But the kids hear them for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Hopefully by saying them quietly, you're teaching them to say the words quietly and not scream them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you know, you're right. I'm modeling. And I will say sometimes if I want to express like loud disappointment, we use the Bluey's dad, oh, biscuits.

SPEAKER_04

Biscuits, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Biscuits the replacement in our households.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, what was your parents'? Did your parents have a replacement curseword?

SPEAKER_03

No. Shoot. All the Midwestern ones.

SPEAKER_04

Shoot.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Darn.

SPEAKER_03

Darn it. Shoot. Yeah, gum it. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

Crackers, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. Yes. Okay. You uh you also just don't, once your kid starts repeating them at school, that's whenever you find a replacement curse word.

SPEAKER_03

Do you say biscuits and that's when you're like, okay, we shouldn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Next question. What's like favorite toy, activity, like that you do with your kids?

SPEAKER_03

Oh man. Yeah, everyone always thinks it's gonna be art. Um, it is not. It turns out I really like to do that as a solo activity. I love it when my kids are drawing and painting. We have a million art supplies, but I can't say it's like my favorite thing to do with them. I really love magnetiles. Man, they they hit every time. They're the best. Yeah, yeah, love that. Honestly, though, I kind of am in this stage of parenting where I feel like toys are a scam and all my kids want to play with is the furniture and the laundry baskets and blankets. And so, truly, like I'm getting rid of so much stuff for this fourth kid, and everyone around me is like, well, don't you want to keep it for the fourth? And I'm like, no, the fourth kid is going to be barefoot in the yard and they're gonna play with the furniture and the pillows and the laundry baskets. That's what they're gonna play with. And the magnet tile. We'll keep those.

SPEAKER_04

And yeah. Well, that's because you can build stuff with the magnet tiles and put the blankets and pillows on. Or they need once they're in the pillow or blanket for, they need something to do inside of it, and that's what magnet tiles are for.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know how holidays I'm like no fun on the holidays because I'm like, ugh, this is just future, future garbage. But uh, but truly, I think my kids play better when there's fewer things around. They're really good at playing with sticks, you know?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I think there's some line of logic of like, um, oh god, we have like 70,000 stuffed animals, and we like try to put some of them in storage or something like that. Or with toys, because yeah, if like right now, if you gave me 3,000 options, I'd be like, I don't know the hell I want to do. But if you give me like three, yeah, it's a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_03

Like I could pick my favorite. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. We do have, I will, I this is making it sound like we have no toys in my house. We have a ton of toys in my house, and we have a million Legos. The Legos are really, yeah. The Legos are it. I love Legos, though. I think Legos are an ultimate toy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

They are.

SPEAKER_03

They're great.

SPEAKER_04

I was going to assume that you were going to say hiking, but then I remembered that you haven't really probably been able to trust yourself to walk for like a year or two without wondering if you're going to destroy your legs.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, exactly. I my kids really do. They are very good hikers, though. They're very good hikers. They we always bring, this is my tip for hiking, is if you bring like a singular prop, like if you have a magnifying glass or a net that can really go a long ways on a hike, because then you can just be like, Do you think there is a I think I just heard something in that bush 20 feet ahead. Can you run and check with your magnifying glass to see it? And then before they know it, they've gone, you know, two miles and you're like, Great job, three-year-old.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. We did great. We did, we do like uh, you can buy like um nature hike books in which they have like checklists and scavenger hunts. We'll do that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's a well, I've never tried that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'll I'll bring a backpack with me because I know if it's a two-mile walk, half a mile into it, they'll be somewhat bored with it, and then they'll want to put it up, and then half a mile later, they'll be intrigued by it. So just wear the backpack and know you're gonna carry kids stuff.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I mean, the power of like the power of a little Costco snack pack in that moment is it's gold.

SPEAKER_04

Are we okay? Listen, I'm I didn't know that I needed this podcast to be sponsored by Costco snacks, but apparently I need to have a Costco still like what I have to say about them, though, you know?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true. That's true. But just as long as you don't insult the hot dogs, yeah. Just like the snacks you get, it's a mixed bag.

SPEAKER_03

It's a mixed bag, just like life.

SPEAKER_04

That was an attempt to tie it all together. Okay, last question. What is your least favorite kid show? Like, kids go to watch it. You're like, sucks. So easy. Which one is it?

SPEAKER_03

So easy. It's so bad that PBS took it off the air. It doesn't exist anymore. But when Mac, my oldest, was like, I don't know, three or something, Caillou was still on the air. Are you familiar with Caillou? The most annoying kid on the planet. Hate that kid.

SPEAKER_01

Jennifer.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So annoyed by Caillou. Caillou is the number one answer to this question.

SPEAKER_02

I hate that kid. I can't believe Caillou.

SPEAKER_04

I have never watched an episode of Caillou. I don't even want to find Caillou, but it is such a consistent. Like, I thought Coco Melon wasn't gonna be the number one answer. I totally assumed. Hate that show. Hate that show of the water. It's real bad. But like everyone is like, have you ever seen Caillou? And like it's this, it's this moment for like release of anger that I did not anticipate from I'm gonna say 70% of parents that come on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, you know what it is. It's like teaches your kids the things you're trying to unteach them. Caillou is the model of terrible toddler behavior that I'm trying to escape in my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Mm-hmm. Cause he just like is I don't know an attribute he has that anyone has tried to justify to me. Like every everyone is like, his voice is whiny. He doesn't do stuff for himself. He moans. Like everything about that kid is like if that was, if my kid played with that kid, I'd be like, we no longer talk to that family. Just fully excommunicated.

SPEAKER_03

I would be going out the side door to avoid eye contact with that family. Thousand percent.

SPEAKER_04

Would you, you would, you would just Irish goodbye them. Just be like, oh, I guess, I guess they left. I guess, I guess they're gone. So they just we're gonna go to the bathroom at our house. We we have to go.

SPEAKER_03

I would send a text back later that's like uh yeah, emergency, we had to go.

SPEAKER_04

We had to go. It was real bad. It was real bad.

SPEAKER_03

The emergency was I couldn't handle this anymore.

SPEAKER_04

What's that? Yeah, that's fair. So yeah, no, trust me. It is the number one answer. I don't think it'll be dethroned. So you're not alone in your Caillou hatred and rage.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's worse.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, and then last thing for you is moment for self-promotion. So, like, hey, what's like how do we find your art? If I'm in Bend, Oregon, and I want to see your art in person, like, how do I do all this? Do some self-promotion.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so I am actively painting here in Bend every week. I have a studio space right above Sister's Cop in the Old Mill called the Stacks that I share with four other amazing artists. So come up and visit us. We all have websites as well. Mine is jennifermcrey.com. And you can find me on the socials. I'm at Jennifer McCaffreyArt on Instagram and have newly really dived into and appreciate the Substack platform. So I'm gonna be spending more time there.

SPEAKER_04

Nice. Look, that was concise. It was good. Well done. Look at that self-promotion.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04

So proud of it.

SPEAKER_03

Gotten better. Gotten better.

SPEAKER_04

That's good. It takes a while. Thank you for doing an episode.

SPEAKER_03

So this is such an honor, bro. The caliber of people you have on your show is so high. I can't believe that I'm on here. I'm so, so honored.

SPEAKER_04

I also can't believe that I'm on this podcast with some of the cool guests that we have. I'm just like, you guys, like, how about I just have a couple of you guys on? You should talk. And you guys talk about you should talk because you're gonna be a lot more interesting than I am. So that's good. And of course, most important detail is that I do now, as if I wouldn't have already done it, I do now especially owe you a bake good for coming on the podcast. So just know not that owe me anything.

SPEAKER_03

I am so honored to be on here. And I don't think the bread would ship well.

SPEAKER_04

I hear the challenge. I hear the challenge, and I will figure this out. Um so that is basically what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_03

It's so evil of me if I if I actually had the intention of just making it a gauntlet for you by saying Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

No, listen, it's just lean into the Taurus of who I am, and it'll it'll work in your favor sometimes. It won't. I would never do such a thing. Well, it's uh yeah, I'll figure that out. And because you can't travel because you're pregnant and your body is your legs are broken, basically. My body is broken.

SPEAKER_03

I'm a shell of my former physical self. Yeah, I'm only a spiritual being now.

SPEAKER_04

That's good. That's nice. You are grandma Tala in Moana. You are a stingray to come and guide us. Yes, yes, yes. That's a critical moment.

SPEAKER_03

That's my ultimate goal. I want to be her.

SPEAKER_04

That's who doesn't? Okay. Listen, I really appreciate you taking the time to do a call. Thanks for just hanging out with me for a bit. I always love talking to you. Uh most tenured friend. I can't call you most oldest friend because I feel like calling oldest friend implies that you're old, and I don't feel like that's a respectful thing to do.

SPEAKER_03

Tenured feels really respectable. And I like the idea of tenured.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, it doesn't come with any benefits. Like I don't give you, like, I don't give you a pension. I'm on the page. That's okay. That's true. And that's why. As part of the benefit of tenure was that you get to do a podcast episode as if that's a something.

SPEAKER_03

That feels like that's part of my benefits package. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And potential baked goods. That's the other part of the benefits package. And knowing your deepest, darkest fears, but not, you know, making jokes about them. That's the other bond we have, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you. That was really kind of you. You're a great interviewer.

SPEAKER_04

Thanks. I talk a lot for some reason. So anyway, hey, Jennifer, care about you a ton and enjoy the rest of your day, okay?

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much, you too. Bye, friends.

SPEAKER_04

Perfect.

SPEAKER_03

See ya.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. Make sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at the Imperfect Dance Podcast. And make sure to give us five stars wherever you listen to us. Music, editing, and production is all done by me. Make sure to tune in on Mondays and most Thursdays for episodes. This podcast is part of the Never at Face Network. Make sure to go to NeverAffacedNetwork.com to learn more about it.