Episode 258 | Ben Mench-Thurlow producer of Emo Orchestra

On this episode of The Imperfect Dads Podcast, Devon sits down with Ben Mench-Thurlow, a booking agent who helps artists plan tours and the creator of the Emo Orchestra—the live concert experience that combines iconic emo and pop-punk songs with a full orchestra.

Content Note: This episode contains an honest conversation about child loss and grief.

Ben courageously shares the story of becoming a father to triplets and the heartbreaking reality that two of his children never came home from the NICU. He opens up about navigating unimaginable grief, supporting his family through loss, and why he wanted to share his experience in the hope that other dads facing similar circumstances know they are not alone.

The conversation also explores Ben's career in the music industry, how he found his way to Nashville, what it's like booking tours for bands, and the inspiration behind creating the Emo Orchestra with his daughter in mind. Ben also talks about raising a daughter who knows more opening bands than headliners, balancing a demanding career with fatherhood, the team that helps bring Emo Orchestra to life, and the emotional experience of watching his daughter graduate from pre-K.

This episode is an honest discussion about fatherhood, grief, resilience, music, and finding purpose after profound loss.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Becoming a father to triplets
• Life in the NICU and coping with child loss
• Grief, healing, and supporting your family
• Why sharing difficult stories can help other dads
• Moving to Nashville and building a career in music
• Working as a booking agent for touring artists
• Creating the Emo Orchestra
• Balancing fatherhood with a demanding career
• Parenting, milestones, and the emotions of watching your kids grow

If you've experienced pregnancy loss, infant loss, or know someone who has, we hope Ben's story reminds you that you are not alone.

Follow us on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok YouTube. Look for new episodes of The Imperfect Dads Podcast every Monday and Thursday.

This podcast is part of the Never A Phase Network, follow them on instagram at @neveraphasenetwork and check out their podcasts like Emo Kids Anonymous  Wasting Time Podcast Certified Fangirl and The Ska Mailman

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to the Imperfect Dads Podcast. This is your host, Debbie. We believe dads care deeply about their family and kids, but they don't always have a space to discuss what their life looks like. Our podcast has a space for dads to discuss the ups and downs of fatherhood and how they feel like they're holding it together, or how they're not. Thank you for joining us for this episode. This podcast is part of the Never A Phase Network. Make sure to follow him on Instagram or go to the website never face network.com. On this episode, we have a Ben Minchler, though. Ben's day job is booking bands when they go on tour, and he also produced the emote orchestra. Before the episode starts, I do want to give a warning or heads up for the episode. A lot of this episode is about Ben's experience with child loss. Ben's family had triplets, and two of them didn't make it home from the NACU. Ben was really candid and honest about what that experience was like, and shared a story because he knew other dads might be out there with a similar experience and they feel like and he wants them to know that they aren't alone in it. We talked about how we ended up in Nashville, becoming a booking agent for bands, creating the email orchestra show with his daughter in mind, his daughter knowing more openers and headliners for concerts, balancing full-time work with fatherhood, the team that helps him with the emote orchestra, and crying watching his daughter graduate pre-K. First journey with being a father. He talks about finding out they're gonna have triplets, months in the NICU, losing two children, and how that experience stays with him to this day. Oh, my bad. Ben, welcome to an episode of the Imperfect Dogs Podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time to do an episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, man. Um so I I lived in Nashville for 18 years. Uh we moved out to Denver in 2024. First question I want to ask you is had you up in Nashville, how do you like living in Nashville?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yeah, I mean, I I love it. Uh I grew up in Vermont, went to school in Boston, uh, moved to LA uh for for music, and then had an opportunity to relocate to Nashville. It's like a great little mix between um Boston and Vermont, I would say. Like, you know, I live out in East Nashville. So there's a uh nice community, a little uh separated from the city, but like still has like the uh you know, not living in the middle of nowhere area. So I like it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah. What's uh what's been your favorite restaurant to find so far in East Nashville? Oh my god. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

It's the hardest question. Yeah, there's so many that pop up all the time. I mean, like uh one one of my favorite spots to go is right around the corner from where I live, is a bar called Tulman's, and they have the best $8 burger in town, I think. And uh cheap gear and cheap whiskey and great people. And it's like a bunch of like music people uh that go there and uh a bunch of guys in the heart and world world. So it's uh it's nice. And I can't I can't think of one restaurant right now, but I'm like, I go there all the time.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I I think because it used to be Southern Gurst before it became Shulman's, didn't it? Southern Girst, yeah. Southern Grace.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Yep. And then uh it uh and Southern Grace is now over. The nations, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That area. Uh but it's great. Were you here with that with that flipped to Shulman's? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yep. I lived whenever we moved, we were living next to like the zoo. So do you know like Dig Thai, like in South Nashville? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we we live like back in those neighborhoods back there. So my sister lives in lives in East, but like uh you know, going across the river, it's like it's a whole thing. It's like, well, I could go over there or I could stay on the side of the river and I'll be fine.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Especially it's CMA fest right now, too. I have the time of filming this, and it is like I'm staying here in my little bubble, and I am not going anywhere near Galcoto.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah, pretty much I know.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Having said that, I will probably take my kid out from gymnastics to go see some shows at CMA that's the night today. So I will say it. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah. So I I know you have more yeah, I know you have more of like a hardcore background and everything for music style. How's it feel like being in music city with like all the country and all that?

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Um, you know, it's it's definitely still a very uh country um driven city, but there is like there have been pockets popping up, like there's like an underground hardcore scene now. Um I mean it's not it doesn't feel like it's overrun by like you know like uh like country music. It's overrun by like woo girls and like bachelorette parties. Yeah that's what it's overrun by.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Pretty much. And watching that change, because like when I moved there like in 2006 to go to Belmont, like Broadway, there weren't celebrity bars. It was like just random small businesses, and now it's like Jelly Rolls Bar, Kid Rocks Bar. When I moved there, you could park on Broadway and like go into a bar and watch some music, then get back in your car and leave. And that's not that's not reality anymore.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

I will say like every now and then if I'm like near that area, uh, I will go. The only one I will go to willingly is uh Robert's Western World. Yep. And you go into the back and you sit up top and you you get you know uh a what is it, the Depression Special or whatever, probably sandwich PBR and just be like, I'm one with the locals here, then I'm out.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yep. I I think I mean of course, you know, Jason Isbell writing a song about driving to Roberts kind of pro hopefully, you know, gets it some more notoriety. But yeah, Roberts Western World was if I was ever on Broadway, it was like, I can I can go here. This will be fine. This will be good.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah. Yeah. What do you what do you do for a career? What do you do for a job these days?

SPEAKER_03 5:33

So I'm uh an agent. Uh I've been an agent for 13 years. Um so I started booking bands uh in high school, actually. Um my brother and I were uh it's funny, like when I tell the story, it's always got a bit of a humorous twist to it because when I started booking uh I started booking like the band that my brother and I were in in high school. And like we needed shows, and I was the one who was like, okay, well, no one else wants to do it, I'll just do it.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

And then things went south between us. They ended up getting like a drummer to record like drums on this EP that we were working on, and like didn't tell me that I found out, and it was like high school drama like, fuck you guys. Yeah, I'm gonna go book all of our friends then. So I started booking bands out of spike.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah, and then and then I ended up you know, fast forward all these years later, make making a career a career out of like just doing it out of like pure hate at the time. Uh but you know, went to uh ended up getting accepted to birth to college music in Boston, um, had a degree in music business. And during that time too, I just sort of like hustled my way through through Berkeley, um, both like booking bands and managing bands. And uh I was sort of in and out playing in a band at the time and had like a you know van and trailer, and so I had like flyers all over Berkeley. So it was like $40. Like I'll drive you drive you to shows, uh $40 per show plus gas. Yeah. So I just drive with all these bands around like New England for like weekend shows, and uh like motors and door guys and uh this and that, and then uh I started like house shows in Boston and uh you know, doing MySpace pages and like just always doing something like beer and singing everybody, basically.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Uh got uh uh from there I got an internship with the agency group in London, uh worked with uh a half of uh a bunch of just phenomenal agents out there. Uh came back, finished Berkeley, got an internship at the LA office of the agency group, which is not ETA, um, and then ended up with a full-time assistant gig at an agency called APA, stayed there for a long time through COVID. Over the time, just you know, built up uh a roster of bands that are sort of in that alternative space, Hawthorne's and Berlin, uh Emory Normatine Acceptance, um uh the early November, uh and then a handful of developing bands like Good Times and Select Mama and You Plate and uh Yada Yada Yada. So um yeah, that sort of like brings us to today. I mean, I've made uh been lucky enough to like have a career of booking emo bands.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Yeah. And and and do you do like the emo orchestra band, like the tour that just happened with the spill canvas?

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Yeah, so I actually produced that show. Oh, cool, nice. Um my time when I was at APA working uh with help being on teams and working with lobster of special attractions and theatricals and putting unique shows into theaters, uh, and speaking with those buyers pretty frequently. They were always like, well, it's something new, it's something fresh, something that's gonna bring a younger demographic. And over COVID through a series of uh events uh that myself and Kristen were going through at the time. Um, I came up, I decided to just say F it and uh create the orchestra show. Um I just started putting pieces together, you know, when I was feeling down, um, when I just needed something to do with my hands and my mom because you know, code, like even like 2021 agents, we weren't doing anything. Yeah, like we rescheduled a shitload of shows and then we're all just sort of like I guess we're just gonna wait and see, you know. Um so it wasn't like a ton of stuff to do. Um, but yeah, so we created the orchestra show uh as something to like I mean, I really created it for Haven, our our our daughter, uh, because I wanted to I wanted to have her be able to go to a show of stuff that was uh that I grew up on, music that I grew up on while uh pairing it with something traditional, like an orchestra, um, and add like an entire different sensory element to a concert. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like a lot of kids that go to our shows, they've never seen an orchestra before. They've never seen like a violin on stage or a cello or a flute player. Um, and that the whole or one of the missions with that show is showing that uh the younger musician that no matter what instrument they play, it's not defined by the genre that was created. So you can rip an escape the fate solo on violin, or you can, you know, play, or you can like riff to a mic and a form that's on on a on a clarinet. You know, it's uh our way of just uh showcasing different instruments and and uh inspiring the the next uh generation of musicians.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah, yeah. I remember like uh in the early aughts and everything, like uh cursive is like my favorite band, or Tim Cash was like one of my favorite bands. And yeah, whenever they introduced the cello on the ugly organ, I was like, more than like yellow card having a violin, I remember being like, you can add cello to like metal songs, like you can like riff with a cello and then being like, Oh, I had a very small framework of what I thought this music could sound like, and now it's expanded and like just freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the long records too of that time. Um, Story of the Year, the Used. I mean, like all those bands had some sort of orchestral element, whether it be just like a quartet to like a full orchestra. Yeah. Um, so like there's there's both those worlds worlds pair really well together, and emo being like the first um genre that we wanted to tackle. Um, it just it works so well. But we have like the idea is to basically continue the concept and do a punk version to do a metal version and have a presence in like those scenes as well. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a solid alternative scene, but there's different pockets.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Absolutely, yeah. And like I've talked to a couple of musicians who um have been able to play with like orchestras like National Symphony, like you know, in Indianapolis, people like and places like that. And like the wait list to do that level of this is like years. Like those people have to like. I remember talking to like Augustana, Dan Layas, and he was like, I would love to do it in the National Symphony. I think it's like a three-year wait period before they could even begin to have me on. So, like you doing something like this, it's like it is really cool to add a string section to music and to it changes so much about the song, but it keeps like the same identity at the same time. So, like, oh yeah, that's that's a really cool way to explore how else the song can have life to it.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Yeah, I mean it's like hearing for a lot of these songs from the the setup is like our featured artists play the handful of their songs, but they also cover songs from the rest of the genre. So Spill King is playing my cat, McPanic, and yada yada. And it just adds this whole new like depth of the song. Um and but yeah, like you're right. The way it was to do some of the symphony shows, it's it's long because you know, like doing the charts for those is like very complex. Yeah, basically we have a we have enough we have a friend, we have a couple of very quick, just absolutely insane um arrangers that we work with. And he can rip stuff up. And Evan Rogers, our our arrangement, he is uh he did between the berries and me. He worked on that project for when they did the Royal Arthur Hall, he's done Ultra Bridge, he's worked all I mean. You look him up, I mean he's got an insane um resume. And he turned 28 on our last tour. I mean, he's like insane, just one of those people that like music just makes sense for them.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

And uh and just, you know, he's just a great little English dude that just I found him on the internet when I was putting a show together.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah. Uh yeah, it's fair. That is it's such a unique skill set also, because like even trying to write like a I I have such like a simple mindset with writing music where I'm like, man, if I got the drums, bass, and guitar all to be in tune and in time with each other, then I did a successful job today. For someone to add like let's add a bassoon part, like to know how to compose for so many different instruments. I'm just like, I your brain is so much better than mine. I don't know how you do this at all.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

I remember talking to Evan after the first round of ranging for he did a first voice. I knew he was explaining his process because he listens to the the the tone of the lead singers for every tour you bring, and he will like because you gotta create space because it's a lot of it's like that mid-range. So you have to have that line of vocals, and then like these instruments have to be up here, and these have to be out here, and then you've got loud drums, electric, uh, you've got uh electric guitar, uh the story guitar, you've got clean guitar, you've got screaming vocals. So you have all these elements you know that that make up this show and and uh what it was hearing. So it is it's it's wild thing about there's not a brain space that I have to even like start to figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

And I will tell you, if your front-of-house person ever quits on you for that tour, do not call me because I would have no idea how to mix all the like because even just thinking of EQing that to make everyone have their own home and space, like sonically, I'm like, you you have to have a the very you probably hired and found some very good people who could actually make this all sound good.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Yeah, our um production designers and name is Evan Backlaney. Evan and I would like we worked in an audio company together in Vermont. Yeah, and over the years we've stayed in touch. Uh he's the modern engineer for sticks, and up to that uh he and another guy developed the orchestra rider for sticks.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

And so when I was working on the show, I he was one of the first people that I called and was like, I have this show. I need I need to ride, I need a production rider to be able to sell it. Can you make something for me? I don't have no idea where it's sorry. And we went through and our our show is so tight. Yeah. Um, as far as the tech that we bring, you know, all everyone's on the in-ears, we have specific pickups that they uh that all of our um string instruments play, we have specific consoles, we have a specific playback system. Like everything is like treating teams.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Uh and he designed the whole thing. So yes, I've been very lucky with this show specifically. And in life, I feel like too, to be able to surround myself with just very smart, competent people that just sort of all find their way in my life and they all just slide in perfectly.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Yep. And real talk, man, that's not a guarantee. We've all worked jobs where it's like, how did this person end up here? Oh all right, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. But okay, it'd be nicer if they weren't.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

How's your okay? So if you did like, if you do booking, you do if you do all the world that you do, how's your like ability to sit still? Because most people I know who do as much as you just said you do, like, whenever you have a spare moment, it's almost like, oh, I don't know what to do with this. How's your ability to like sit still from time to time? It's hard. It's real hard.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

It's it is it is so hard. I mean, like that that's why I hate working from home. Because it's like I'll like without even realizing I'll be walking outside down my driveway and be like, how did I get up here? Yeah. Um, you know, uh, but even with the downtime as I thought, there's something that I can be doing. And if I'm not doing something, I'm making a list of the things that need to be done. So it's hard. Vacations are difficult. Like I can't sit on the beach and just sit on a beach. You know. I find that like one of the most difficult. Um I would say it's it's challenging. I you know, like I I like to play video games and you know, the cake is the bed, uh you know, do that and the kid would hang out with friends.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah. I I I think we've gotten more into camping lately because normally whenever you camp out here in Colorado, the campsites don't have cell phone service. So you have to actually be there. So like it's like that level of disconnect is like, all right, if I have one bar of cell phone service, I'm gonna look at my phone and it's like, cool, you're in SOS mode. Like, yeah, stop it. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Yeah. Yeah. And you can't do anything, you're just stuck here.

unknown 17:06

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah, that'd be nice. Yep. One of the hardest things about being a parent is your constant mental to-do list. Whenever your daughter is like, hey, play with me, play with me, play with me, and you mentally are somewhere else. Do you are you able to like, all right, this change modes, this behavior for my daughter? Are you also are you kind of always like mentally like fighting against that?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

I have gotten, I feel like, really good about it, especially over the past year. I my brother called me one day and I was telling, I was talking to him about something similar, like always being pulled away. And he's like, You got 18 summers. Don't forget that. You have 18 summers with her before, and maybe less if she doesn't want to have anything to do with you. And so when she starts to be like, Can you play with me? Like, I think like that just rings in my head. And I'm like, Yep, put my phone down, tune in as dad, whether it be on the playground, at home, you know, like, and I had like I had troubles with my dad later on in life, but early in early, early on in life, like he was the dad, like throwing base, you know, throwing the ball out outside, doing something, going camping, riding bikes, doing all those, those things. Yeah. And I want to uh, you know, and I had I had two other brothers, so it was just boys. Yeah. And you know, having her, uh, you know, I don't I guess like I want to make sure that she grows up and at the end of the day, she's like, I had an awesome dad. Yeah. And so if if that is as little as me just putting that phone down, because that that email can wait at the end of the day. You know, like nobody like our b are the music business is is just built around ASAP, urgent, needs to happen now, call me back, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, it's like we fucking do shows. Yeah. People people go to these these things with their like disposable income. We're not curing cancer. We're not, you know, like there's not a car. I mean, then maybe there's a car exploding somewhere, but there's not like there's not like a there's not something that can't wait. Five minutes. Yeah. So I have gotten really good at that. I there are some times where I'm like, okay, there's this is an emergency. Give me a second. Um, but uh yeah, I mean, like I, you know, when I pick her up from school, I'm like, I try to just tune right into dad mode. And it's hard, you know. But like there are also things too, and I'm sure you've had other guests too. It's like there are ways of bringing her into my world, which is which is live music. And she loves going to shows. Uh going to shows, playing music, listening to music, even if it's the same fucking song 900 times. And I know all parents can relate with that.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

But thankfully it's not baby shark or some shit. Uh it's it's something that sh that somebody else put on, and it's usually a it's usually a rock band. Um so even I've had to listen to it a bunch of times, at least there's guitar in it. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

No, and it's difficult, man. Like, yeah, you because um I I think it's hard to acknowledge that like um whatever your phone has in it is like always insatiable. Like it's not like you're gonna answer one question, your phone or so someone on the other end of that phone is gonna be like, by the way, you're good now. I don't need you for a couple hours. It's always like, oh, and while I've got you, oh, and while I've got you. So like one last thing. Yeah, yeah, because it's that's how it always works. So you it is interesting to learn the boundary of like, okay, I do have to put my phone physically in a separate room for me to not keep magnet like being magnetized back to it.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Yeah. Exactly. Yep, exactly. And if I didn't need to be on social media, I would have cut that shit out a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Pretty much. Once again, social media always insatiable no matter what, and there's always some new dopamine I get from it, then then my brain is like, but how do I get more of this? And you're like, none of this matters.

unknown 20:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

It's great. And also, I'm sure like in relation to social media, like if you're planning tours and everything, like social media is where you usually promote it, I feel like. So you've got to deal, it's the like monster you gotta deal with.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yeah. And it's also like, you know, you're even just being like face in the industry too. Um, I feel like we're sort of like kind of evolving, like the industry side is sort of like evolving into like each person who needs to have like not needs, but it's like good to have like some sort of like presence. Like, look at all the shit like my bands are doing because other bands see that and it's like, I want to be on that, I want to do that. Um and you know, like clients want to be at the place that all their friends want to be at. You know, like they want to at when they're getting catering, they want to be like, oh yeah, we're doing all these things, we're up here. You know, because bands love bands are just you know, they're they're built on ego. You know, they love to talk about stuff. And uh so um yeah. Yeah. I don't remember where we're going with that whole conversation.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

No, you're good.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

It this social.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah, you're good, yeah, yeah. Okay, here's the here's a good question for you then. So if you are booking the shows and everything, um, if you're trying to bring your daughter to a show, how do we convince Spans that starting at 5 p.m. is okay, so that we can bring kids to shows and not destroy bedtime routine. How do we make that a reality?

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Okay. Anyone that goes to a show that I book will notice a change of set times because I like shows to be over by 10:30. Done. 10:30 is like I she will stay up till 10:30 if there's something due. And once in a while, that's okay. They're kids. Even if like let them do it every now and then. Um, so most of my shows like headliners on by 9 or 9.15 and we're done by 10:30, and everyone gets to go home. So um, but then you run into like restrictions of like then you have can't do doors before this time or show has to be before this time, and unless you've run it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Um, but yes, it is something to be thinking about, especially like not every show fits into the mold, right? Um and so when you're looking at when I'm building a when I'm building a tour and I'm building like what I think that'll run a show should look like and sending that for approval to my managers and being like, this is what I think we should do because I'm a fan of this band and this is how I decided to get me to a show.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah. Yep. Well, like, because if uh if I go to a show like out at Red Rocks or something like that, I feel like the headliner usually goes on at like 9:30 or 10, and then I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna get home until midnight. Oh now I'm gonna be like now I'm gonna get like maybe five hours of sleep for tomorrow. Oh, I'm not gonna be the best version of dad I can be tomorrow. All right, so you you prepare for it, you deal with it, you drink the extra coffee. But like, man, like yeah, I know like Dawes and Isbel are doing more shows where it's like an evening width where like it's just them. They go on at eight, they're done by like 9:30. And I'm like, oh, I could go to a concert like this, like every single night. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, my daughter has seen a lot of openers, not a lot of headliners, she's like she's seen a lot of openers over the years. But I mean, music for her, like music is music for her right now, you know, and the environment and the excitement and uh of of seeing a show and the lights and the you know, people moving on stage and the number of times like I've had her at, you know, like sound check for a band and she like storms the stage after they're done and just like plays with all her instruments. Of course. Yep, yeah, hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

I really like the thought of your daughter going into like an AR type person because she knows all the up-and-bands, because she's on the scene openers.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

That is a hilarious thought. She just graduated pre-K a couple weeks ago, and like I was a we can swear on this, right? I was a fucking mess. Really? And dude, I didn't even make it through the fucking opening remarks. I'm just like, and um they like they sing and like dance along like seven or eight songs, and then there's like a s then there's a slideshow, and I'm just like oh, destroy photo. And it's like each kid has their own section. Yes. And then at the end, all the kids are sitting on chairs on on the stage, and the the woman who runs uh her daycare and the the pre the school that she goes to brings each one up, and she's got like, oh, like so and so likes this and she likes this, and we've noticed that they do this. We think they're going to be a that's so awesome. So my daughter was the last one up there, and so Haven goes up there, yeah, and she's like, Haven is always singing something, or she's playing air drums, or she's playing air guitar, or tapping, and we think she's gonna be a rock star. And she said that. I'm just like, just thinking about now.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Oh, that's so sweet. Oh so yeah, just destroyed. Yep, yeah. How I mean, I I I mean I love the uh moments of like, hey, this acknowledged your kid's getting older and then gone to the next stage, but it also feels brutal at the same time. Like my oldest is in fifth grade, so she'll go she's about to start fifth grade, so I know then she'll go to middle school after that. And I'm already dreading the like graduation like ceremony. Because yeah, same. I'm just gonna sit there and be like, you're not allowed to be this old. You're not allowed to, you're you're you're not supposed to be this old yet, but also I'm glad you're this old and I'm proud of you, but also you're not supposed to be this old at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Dude, I I get that before pre-K and the weekly end. I'm like, I don't want you to go to kindergarten, I don't want you to grow up. And she's just like, Daddy, I'm still me. And I'm like, Who the fuck taught you that? Who taught you that? That's so sweet. Like five. She's five. Where did you where did you come up with that? Oh I'm still me.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

I love that. That's so sweet. I I love whenever your kids like um I think the beauty of being around kids is they have such simple and pure intentions. And like, then they do have moments like that. We're like, but dad, I'm still gonna be me, even if I'm in pre-K. And it's like, so you get it. I don't get it. You get it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Who helped you figure that out?

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Who helped you figure out it wasn't it couldn't have been me because I'm not that mature. So it had to be someone else. Um also, I I know like um if you want to like tell your birth story or how you uh how you came to be a father and everything, um, I wonder how that factors into that for you as well. Because I know you have had child loss as well. So seeing your daughter get older, I'm sure, is it very compounded with your experience of being a dad.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I don't I don't mind telling the story. Um so uh Chris and I um it took a second to to get pregnant, we ended up getting pregnant and um super exciting. And I've I have I'm I will preface this by saying I've wanted to be a dad forever. Like it is like like we got married, and I'm like, all right, let's do this. Like I'm fucking stoked. Yeah. So we end up waiting a couple years. And I like remember going into like the first ultrasound, and uh I remember like the lady like starting to do it. She's like, Oh, you guys are excited, and like, yeah, and she's like, she's doing the thing, she's like, Oh, and I'm like, Oh, that's like a weird thing. I I don't want I don't want to hear oh. She's like, uh I'm gonna ask you guys a question, and she's like still doing the thing. I'm like, okay. She's like, Does multiples run in your family? And I'm like, no. And she's like, well, congratulations. You just went from a family of two to a family of five. You're pregnant with triplets. And I'm like, what? Like, damn near pass out on the floor.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

And just like holy, like, because three was like the number that we were looking at. And, you know, that was like what our goal was. And walking out of there and being like, fuck, we did it in one shot. That's pretty cool. And uh, you know, we we didn't we didn't do any uh like fertility IVF stuff. We didn't do any fertility IDF. Yeah, we didn't do any of that stuff. Um so I mean it was absolutely terrifying. They just kept saying, like doctors kept being like, it's a high risk, high risk, yada yada yada. But we're like one month in, two months in, three months in. We're like, whoa, like okay, like are we out are we out of the woods or whatever? And then um 19 weeks, uh she goes into she starts to have contractions and went up at the hospital, a whole series of events happen. Um she she gives uh birth to our son uh 19 weeks. Obviously, he doesn't he doesn't survive. And that was like I remember that night like vividly. Um and uh so we so she has you know two other kids, and we we didn't we chose not to find out the sex. So we know our son was we know our son. And um, so we end up staying at the Anteparting Wing at St. Thomas here in Nashville. Uh, you know, like 19 weeks turns into 20 weeks, and 20 weeks turns into 21 weeks, and 21 weeks turns into 22 weeks, and we started getting these like mantras, like, you know, like 21 and 1 on to 2020, you know, 21 and 2. And we would just kind of keep saying that each night. And it was just like, I mean, which this is 2021, so it's like we're coming out, it's still COVID, and you're wearing a mask every day in this fucking hospital for six weeks, and you're just like wishing something were to give, you know, like whichever direction that happens. And then 25 weeks on the dotch, and she's in a labor every single day. It was like, I don't know what it's impossible for me to understand what she went through that during that time. I know what I went through, and that was just like I mean, to this day, it's like a very sensitive uh thing. And uh, so 25 weeks on the dot, she gives birth to two girls, um kind of like being in and out of labor every single day, and then finally just like it is coming and things are happening. So um, two twin girls, um Wilder and our son's name is Lennox. Um, and we did like interesting names for all of them. So Lennox Jet, which is the tattoo of my left hand, and then uh Wilder Lake is my my right hand. Wilder was 11 inches, 11 and a half inches, Haven was 10 inches. So Haven was our smallest of the three.

SPEAKER_04 30:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

And they go straight to the NICU. And the doctors are like, we are gonna do everything we can. Just know this is like really fucking early. And we're just like, okay, but you know, like we're you know, and then and then we stay in the hospital for another three days, and both of us are like, we gotta get the fuck out of here. Like we are done being here. And going home was like, I think maybe one of the weirdest parts about that whole experience, because like you leave pregnant, you're supposed to come home with kids. You are and you come home with no kids. Yeah. And um, you know, like uh I have a long I've I've been with Hawthorne Heights for a really long time. Let me um sidebar for a second. I've been with Hawthorne Heights for a long time. And um Matt, the bass player, lives in town here, and Matt and his wife Leah came over because we had like three cribs set up in the nursery, yeah, and they came over and took down two of them for us. And or maybe they took down all three of them. I can't remember what they did, but they like they like came in and like handled shit. And to this day, and I don't think I've told them enough, but like to the day, that was like one of the biggest things that anybody's done for us. Um anyways, so yeah, Matt from Hothor Nights, yeah, yeah. Okay, so back to the story. So during the NICU and every day is like you learn so you learn so much from spending that much time in the NICU. Uh and like I feel like I could have like been a nurse at the end of it. Um and it's terrifying every day, you know, like you don't know if like something's gonna happen while you're there or while you're out you know when you're gone for the door, or when you walk at the door. And like I remember like seeing some parents being like, Oh, like, or like meeting new new Nikki parents for the first time. They're like, How long have you been in here? It's like, oh, we've been here for four weeks or five weeks. And yeah, about a month and a half into the Nikki stay, we get a call at 11 o'clock at night, and just as we were going to bed, and uh the doctors tell us that our daughter Wilder went is in critical condition, that we need to come back to the hospital. So we're like, what the fuck? Like I just wonder, like, what the fuck, what the fuck, what the fuck? Because Wilder was she was bigger, she was more stable than Haven was. Um, and uh we get there and um surely uh I don't know, five, six hours later, she ends up passing away.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

So, you know, writing like signing, you know, two birth certificates and two death certificates before you get to take home a kid is like a pretty wild thing. Um and also like having to like deal with the process that we went through with our son and this.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Um and it was just like and if I'm not mistaken, like you still can't take Haven yet home either. So you still can't start the journey of parenting you expected. So like literally every part of this just like fuck, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

And even at this point, like we've not like we held two kids before we held the living one. Yeah. And that's like insane. So um, I mean Haven was she was 10 inches, she was like fucking this big. Yeah, it's so small. That's like her white hand. Yeah, like yeah, and she was 14 ounces when she was born, and I think she went down to 16 ounces in a pound, by the way. She I think she went down to like I want to say like 11 ounces. And she was because you're born and then they they lose weight. It's it's terrifying, dude. Absolutely terrifying. Then like you can do like I don't want to tri any any Nikki parents, I don't want to like trigger them by saying the wrong thing because there are certain things that happen to Nikki that's like I know if I if somebody if I got caught off guard from somebody saying this, and I would even maybe like even do like a little like precursor, hey, there's Nikki and Blossom the sword. Yeah, well, you know, I'm that's that's one thing that I definitely found um uh through these years is like there's certain things I can't watch, and I wish someone would told me that they were gonna talk about it before they did. Yeah. Um but anyway, so um to to sort of speed this along. So Haven uh ends up staying at the NICU for 170 days. Um yeah. Uh I went to the NICU, Kristen went to the NICU every single day. I went there 169 days. There was one day I just couldn't I couldn't bring myself to it. Uh so she comes home on oxygen because her her lungs are still developing. Uh we find out she needs like a few weeks after being home, she's aspirating while she's drinking her bottle. So like she ends up getting an NG tube. She's on like a feeding tube, and it's the whole fucking thing. And so we've got tubes all fucking over this house. Like an oxygen tube, and there's like this, and there's people coming in every day. Because you have like PT and OT to like make sure she's like developing okay. And like some days it's she's doing really good, and some days are like, oh, I'm kind of concerned now. Like maybe she, you know, like maybe this is a sign of CP, or maybe this is a sign of this, or a sign of that, and you're just like every time just her heart just starts racing. It's like and I remember at that point I couldn't wait for the moment we were at now. Like, I couldn't wait for her to graduate kindergarten, and that's all I could think about. And um, which like really fucked up my introduct parenthood, because you're just like, all I want to do is like love a kid that isn't like hooked up to tubes, or I don't have to like worry about like is you know, are her is her heart rate okay, or is her um oxygen stats or are are those okay? Like you just want none of that.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

And that but this is like you you are a parent and the moment you get pregnant, like you are signed up for whatever is about to come. Good, bad, ugly, great. That is part of the gig.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

And like the the unfortunate amount of like dads I didn't see in the NICU was like disheartening, but it was also like I'm fucking here. You know, I'm showing up for my kid, and that's all I can worry about is what's happening in our thing. So, anyways, so yeah, um, so then so she's so she's on a uh feed, she's on an NG tube, which is up her nose, it's a non-invasive thing. I mean it's invasive as fuck because it like those three nose to your son of the case.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

As invasive as it can be, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yeah, not as invasive as a G tube, which is like the the one that goes to your side. Yeah, and yeah, so so and so she was doing feeding therapy because they're we're trying to get her to come off of this tube because we did another feeding, another uh swallow study, and it seemed like she was fine.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

So, like, okay, let's get her off this tube, let's get her eating food. Um and the sort of like protocol we were on for how much food she was supposed to be getting through the tube versus how much she was supposed to be eating. It's just sort of like I kept saying, like, she is so small, we need to like trim back on like what's going in her nose because you got to you gotta force her to eat at some point, right? She we gotta make that jump. And I I would get in fights with the feeding therapist being like, you gotta change the protocol, like you have to you have to change the um whatever the fuck it's called, like what your order, like you have to change the order.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

And um, no, no, no. Like, we think that maybe she needs a G tube. I'm like, fuck that. Like, this kid is proving to us she can swallow. Let's give her the chance. And she, and I think like two days after I got a big argument with our feeding therapist, she woke up one day, Haven woke up one day, just fucking yanked the thing out. We're like, let's see if this works. Let's just see if this thing works and let's see if we can get if this and then we never went back. And she rose to the occasion, and all of a sudden everything just started changing.

SPEAKER_04 38:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

She started smiling and laughing and eating and all things. And that's like one of the that was like fine. I was like, holy shit, like this is like one of those times, or that this is like we're starting to get into it. And actually, really funny. Um, I'm just gonna I'm gonna pull up this picture because I brought her to um I brought her to the very first Ohio's for Lovers Festival, and it was great around this time. She actually she decided to yank this thing out of her nose, and this is like one of the first like pictures I have with her, and that's like us standing on the main stage at Ohio's for Lovers. That's awesome. You know, six thousand people before Hog Nights goes on. Dude. And it was that was like one of the first weekends. I'm like, uh, okay, this is what it's supposed to feel like. Right, yes after a year and a half of fucking shit. Yes. Yes, dude. So that's my story. Casual, casual, casual intro into fatherhood. So I know that took up like a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Uh, you know what? Uh thank you for being willing to talk to me about it. Thank you for being uh being willing to share it. Um my middle child had seizures whenever she was born. So we had to go to uh she was she was full term, everything, just day six, it's a hereditary thing in which um you have seizures. And I think it took us about a year, like there's such a cloud that comes over from that. I think it took us about a year before like it anything felt normal. Because it was our second kid, so our first kid, we were like, Oh, we know this is supposed to look, we know this is supposed to go. And like around one year, we started like wean her off medicines, everything got a little bit different. How long do you feel like it took for you before like it started to feel normal? Let's see here.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

That was September 10, 2022. She was she would have been a year and a half. A yeah, okay, a year and a half, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and I think we were like even on the growth chart. Like she was just all the way down here, and the lines are up here, but now we're like, you know, like we we celebrate the whatever wins we can get. And like recently she's in like the she like moved into like the 17th percentile for height.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

It's like, holy shit, nobody ever nobody like we're doing it, we're doing the growth thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

I mean I mean wait, she's still in like the I think fifth percentile or something like that, but we're on the fucking chart. And so that's like one thing that I learned is like just take the take the wins. So she's she is smaller than the other five-year-olds in her class, but she is like she like is just like a little whipper snapper, and she uh is insanely smart and she's funny and she has a great personality, she's kind to people. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

So I I think when you go into fatherhood, no matter or parenting, no matter what your intro to it is, you have these moments where you expect it to look a certain way. And whenever it doesn't, you in real time have to figure out how to pivot and how to show up for your family in ways you never knew you were supposed to show up for your family. Because like I doubt you ever expected to argue with a feeding specialist over if your kid was ready to eat or not. That like nowhere in your fatherhood journey where you're like, you know what, I'm gonna have to advocate for my child's ability to eat. That's what I'm gonna do one of these days.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

It's wild. Like that is not the the stuff that we have to advocate for our kids is not, I feel like 99% of the time it's not what we thought of that we would be doing in parenthood, and it's not like something that we're like trained on. It's just like sometimes you just have a gut feeling about something, and that's that connection between your partner and your your kid. Um that it just like something doesn't feel right, and that feeding thing was something that didn't feel right. And there was other times too. I'm like, this doesn't feel right. I think we should think about this for a second. But then there are some things where you're like, you just you have to take the what somebody is telling you as like, okay, this is the right thing to do. Like she had um ROP retinopathy of prematurity, which is where like when kids get so much oxygen than NICU, it can make the blood vessels behind the retina grow faster than the rest of the eye. No, and it can cause the retina to detach from the eye. Oh, yeah. And they came to us uh with a um uh a procedure that um was still experimental, and like 300 kids before her had it, and it's a viral injection into her eye, and they're like, We are pretty sure this is gonna work. And I'm like, Oh my god, we think this is a really good idea. It was developed at Vanderbilt, and we're like, Okay, let's do it. And they did it, and it fucking saved her eyesight. Um, and crazy follow-up to that, I was playing softball on like a pickup league, and I was throwing the ball with this woman, and we were talking back and forth, and she's had telling me she worked in my children's medicine at Vanderbilt, and I was like, Oh, like my daughter took this drug, it was developed by a Vanderbilt. I think that department girl just like broke down. She's like, I fucking worked on that project. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh, dude. So pretty wild shit, man.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Yeah. I I think becoming a dad, also like if you spend any time in a hospital because you've had complications of some sort, you learned so much about the human body that like you never anticipated to learn. Where I'm sure you're just like, you know, all this random shit, I'm sure. Where you're just like, that's not how body's supposed to work. But here's how you can here's what you can do. And you're just like, you got a master's degree, you got a crash course and your nursing degree, basically.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Yes, yes. Uh never do I want to go back there. Uh ever. Um and I and I was like, and if if anybody's ever been, you know, anybody who's listening to this has ever spent time with Nikki, whether it be like a day or 170 days, like there are like the fucking whole music that you that they that ha that that's on the phone when you call Nikki, like I can't listen. If there's a company that has it, I'll hang the phone up.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

You know, or if there's like a restaurant that uses the same soap, I won't go to the restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

You know, like I there's just things I can't do because it just, it's too, it's still too raw and too harsh. And I've done the therapy shit, and I've done the this and the that's and it's like, you know, uh, it just is is one of those things that will just stick with us forever. And uh, but you know, I will say like Haven is great. She knows about her her two siblings. We talk about them not as often as probably we should, but yeah, um, she knows about them, she knows our names, and I'm sure she'll ask questions as she grows up and We'll be there to answer them. That's what you got to do.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Because kids can read through that non-honesty position. They see right through you.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yeah, they just sit there and they stare at you and go, huh. And you're like, Yeah. All right. You're right. You got me. It's this is more I don't want to get into it right now. I'm not in a place to talk about it. I know you're in a place to talk about it. I'm not, though. Also, dude, totally valid. Yeah, if I was at with you at a restaurant, you come out from the bathroom, you're like, so this whole music reminded me of uh one of the hardest year and a half I've ever lived in my life. Like, oh, cool. Do we all close up the check?

SPEAKER_02 44:32

This is the white. Let's go get pizza.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

I know where those restaurants are.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Yeah. But I think that's um that's real, man, because that's that's real life, though. Because you do sometimes walk into somewhere and you're like, oh shit, I'm mentally back here now. I can't stay in this mental space because that nothing good's gonna come out of this. Let's get out of here now. And um that's real life, man. That's and it sucks, but also I get it.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Yeah. Yep. It yeah. And then, you know, uh dealing with all of that shit, I will say, like I've you know, like been lucky to be with to have clients who did, you know, understood not understood what we were going through, but empathize and could see what we're going through. And and and were able to like be in the thick with us and like the the bands I've worked with over the years are just the the nicest, best people. And um especially the ones that were with me through that whole time. It was just like, you know, it's like chat almost checking out for a year. It's like that's um and have have your bands stick with you through through that entire thing. Yep, that that's a lot, you know. And um, I don't think that exists in m in a lot of other businesses, you know, like an accounting firm or a constructor. Like I it I just moved yeah, I was very lucky at that point in that in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:51

Um so to to to bring her back to music.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. If I can ask, what was like um what was like finding were you able to find like father community specifically through that journey, or is it more just like people like uh the bass player or from Hawthorne Heights like helping you out by taking down cribs and stuff? Were you able to connect with other dads on any of this? Because that also seems like a could be a very lonely fatherhood journey as well.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

Yeah, it's kind of uh Yeah, sorry. I think it's it's triggering. No, no, that's okay. I it's it I think I I'm trying to think of the dads that like well, let me back up. I think when you have stories like this, I think you find out that a lot of other people have some similar stories. Yes, and and people will be like, oh, like you know the conversation will start with like it's not as bad as what you went through, but we also you know dealt with a miscarriage or this and that. I'm like, first of all, I'm gonna stop you there. Loss is loss, everybody experiences differently. Like we went through shit. I have no idea what you went through in yours. So let's not compare trauma because that's unfair to both of us. Yeah. Um and but I like I I don't I can't say that like I mean, like there are a couple of dads I know that had kids in the NICU, and and over the course of a couple beers we'll we'll talk through some stuff that if we need to do that, but like I'm not really in a com I'm not in like any like communities or groups or something like that that like I found helpful. Um but being around you know great friends and yeah and doing the doing the job uh is sort of what kind of has kept me going and just being a dad and being to show up and having the experiences of like dropping my daughter off a gymnastics camp, you know, and watching her you know flail around for an hour.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Yeah. Uh yeah. And and there's a lot to community, there's a lot of elements to it. It doesn't necessarily have to be like you've gone through something similar to me. It's more just like people who uh you know you can talk to if you need to, I think is more important.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

I could talk to Jack Daniels pretty daily.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Do you really? As a joke. At night in a can in a little bottle. Maybe there's some rocks involved, maybe there's not. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Yes, yeah. We got a good relationship though.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Yeah, that's within reason. Within reason, you know? Um Shulman's every night. Um sincerely, like, I I think like um, thank you for being willing to tell me. My hope is that you'd feel comfortable enough to tell me that story because I know dads have gone through similar things and dads don't get a chance to talk about it. And here you are, like not on the other side of it, but like here you are in your journey where you're able to watch your daughter get ready for kindergarten, get ready to move on to the next phases of life, and experience that joy while also holding the heartbreak that you still live with every day.

SPEAKER_03 48:28

Yeah. I also think too, like, for whatever reason, like people don't want to talk about loss and they don't want to talk about going to therapy, and they don't want to talk about these things that are part of who we are and make up uh make up us as individuals and people. And I think that I might hope, and then it seems that some of the some of the cracks are finally uh uh uh are getting bigger, but you know, like people go through loss all the time, and uh I I just w I wish dads would dads and parents would feel more comfortable talking about it because it it talking about it talking about the shit makes it feel uh it makes it feel better, you know, like the saying the story over and over again. Like I I used to never be able to I two years ago I would never have been able to tell tell that story, but I've told it enough times now where I'm like, okay, I can I can get through the facts of this thing. Like I remember what happened, I know how I felt in those moments. And you know, like if there's a dad struggling or there's a parent struggling through a similar situation, you know, like if my if if my story can help a little bit, um, you know, that's then that's great, even if we don't know each other. Because that's that's also to go back to music. That's like one of my favorite parts about music too, is like um my favorite part of this job is being is is creating moments for people. So like nobody watching this band that I book has any idea I exist. They only know buying a ticket, going to the show, having fun, going home. But for me, like I have created a moment in time where maybe someone is going to that show and they just went through a loss. Maybe they just had a marriage cares that night, maybe they met their future wife or or partner there, or maybe they broke up with their current partner at that show, you know. Like and for me to be able to have like by uh association, have like uh be part of that moment with all these people, like to me that's really special. You know, like my life is connect my life is connected to so many other people. They don't even know it, and I don't know how the little fuck they are. Um, but that's like the like we're having impact on people. Um, and I just like to, you know, at some point leave this world knowing that like I did something to impact someone else's life.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

You know? Yep. Totally get it. I I personally believe that like uh I'm I make I make light heart of a lot of things or I joke about all that stuff. And if there's something that's happening in my life I'm not willing to like crack jokes at myself about, that to me is the sign of like, oh, I still got some processing to do. Like there's still a really big wound here. So like if you've gone from like I'm never talking about that again to now being like, you know, man, this is part of my story, it's part of my journey. I I should learn how to talk about this. And that's it's an interesting metric of growth of like, are you willing to talk about this? Hell no, never. Okay, cool. We'll get there one day. We'll see what happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:14

Yep. Yep. I I but again, yeah, like the the the talking about stuff to to normalize, not normalize, but just to um I don't know, I feel like every time you talk about something that has to do with like pain and suffering or whatever, it's like it helps that scab get a little bit bigger. Yeah. You know, like you it's always gonna be there. There's always gonna be a scar, there's always gonna be a scab or whatever, but it like helps mm it helps uh strengthen that part of you a little bit more to talk about it. Because if it's if you just leave that shit as like an open bleeding wound, you're never gonna heal. And that's how that's how you go down deep dark holes.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Yep, correct. Then you hang out with Jack Daniels a little too much.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And then you have an then you have an uncomfortable relationship.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Which is okay when you're not on parent duty every now and then. Correct. It's okay to go down there.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Yeah. But there's still, yeah. Whenever it's similar to going to concerts where you're never gonna stay up till I just like, okay, whenever I go to bed at 2 a.m. and my kid wakes up at 6 a.m., this is reality and this is what's gonna happen. So not gonna make it an everyday thing, but here we are today.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

So how I end every episode is ask every guest a series of five questions. They're kind of like light-hearted icebreaker-y questions. Um, and you have time to think about them, it's not rapid fire. Um the first question is Did you have any backup names for your kids? Like, do you remember any what you almost named your children?

SPEAKER_03 52:35

Oh man. I don't I I there that's a good that's a good question. There's a list probably somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Okay, okay. Um trauma ago for you, also, so that's also might be clouding your judgment a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Yeah, yeah, fair. Um I was to, I mean, to like we my last name is Meg Sturlow, and it's a fucking washer machine on the last name. Yes. And um so when we were coming up with names, we wanted to have a cool first name and a cool middle day, just in case they wanted to be a musician or do something in the entertainment. They didn't have to use the fucking log ass last name. Um so uh so uh Lennox Jet, Wilder Lake, and then uh Haven Grey is our surviving triplet. So N S-G-R-E-Y. Um so and everybody knows it because whenever I'm mad, I'm just it's a Haven Grey, it's Haven Grey, just rolls off the tongue. Um H G. Uh so yeah. Um yeah, I can't remember any of the other names. But it like when you're trying to come up with cool, unique names to counter your fucking what the fuck last name. Um because my parents, my parents hyphenated our are my last name. Okay. So um yeah. So no, I don't have a good answer to that question. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

You're good, but it's still you at least told the story of like trying to have rock star names and just accommodating for the hyphenated last name that they were going to get no matter what. Yeah, exactly. Haven't gonna end up marrying someone with a last name like Jones. Like sound like the most straightforward, boring last name ever, just to counteract. Bring it on. Bring it on. Fuck this like hyphenated bullshit. How dare they. Um next question. Do you have a favorite TV or movie dad, or one that comes to mind whenever I say that?

SPEAKER_03 54:18

I feel like I feel like 90% of the people I answer this are gonna answer uh Bluey's dad.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Yeah, Bandit. Yeah, no, I mean but also you can't no one can be bandit. That's the other follow-up for it as well. Okay, all right, cool.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

I fucking love that show. Yeah. Um favorite dad? TV show dad?

SPEAKER_01 54:34

TV, TV or movie dad, or what what comes to mind besides bandit? Yeah, that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Uh yeah, I feel like this is probably another common one. Uh Hank Hill.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Actually, not as common as you would think, but Hank Hill is an amazing answer. But hey, listen, if you need to talk propane, he's your man. Propane.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Well, uh, I watch a lot of fucking King of the Hill. It's like my like go to sleep, zone the fuck out um one. Um I love that. I don't know if you watch Trailer Park Boys, um, but I've also watched a lot of Trailer Park Boys and uh Ricky, as uh much of a fuck up he is, like, all he does is love his kid and like all he eats from from selling dope to fucking steal his shit, like it's all like like for his kid. And like it's yeah, and it's like you pull apart all of this shit, like there is a very simple like equation in his mind of like you just gotta do it for the kid. You know, they live in a shitty situation, he's gotta do shitty things to make sure she's okay.

unknown 55:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

There's some arg there's some questionable episodes here and there and there, but for the most part, you know.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

I I think King of the Hill is the ultimate, like, whenever I was a kid, it was so dry and so slow I didn't like it at all. But now as an adult, I'm like, this show is genius. This show is so smart and so funny.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

Yeah. I mean, like the it it is funny in that, like as far as like and now I'm thinking about it, I'm not entirely sure he's the right he's the right dad that I would align with.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

Uh maybe Bob from Bob's Burgers too would be.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Oh, Bob's from Bob's Burgers is a solid answer. Yeah, yeah. Sarcastic loves his kids, but also like there it seems like they're in control more than he is at all times.

SPEAKER_03 56:09

Yeah. Yeah. But like Hank is like the the the you're gonna get uh like the inevitable you're gonna be embarrassed by your kid is like he takes that to an extreme, but it's just like uh you love you you love your kid for everything they do, but there are some things you look at and you're like, what do you do? Who the fuck are you doing? Who is you know I know that's gonna continue through life. It will, but uh I don't know. It will. Anyways. A mixture of those. Bandit fucking rules, though.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Bandit's the best. Um I'll I'll tell you this advice that someone told me once. Just remember that a bluey episode is only eight minutes. So bandit's a great dad for eight minutes. You don't know what the rest of the day is like, you don't know what else goes on during that day. So just know you can also be a phenomenal dad for eight minutes.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

He's actually he's actually a raging alcoholic.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

He's actually he's like at the it's just bandit, like it's past nine pm. He's like, go the fuck to sleep. Kids is just him drinking Jack Daniels by himself. Or fosters you'd be drinking fosters. Sorry, let me make that more culturally appropriate. Yes. Um next question. You probably don't have one, but I'm interested to hear what you say. What's like your go-to replacement curse word? Or do you just curse around Haven?

SPEAKER_03 57:23

Um, no, okay, so here's our theory about that. Um so we are swear positive in that within with within like the house. Right. So you stab your toe, it feels better, just go fuck. Yeah, you know, or like shit, that that thing happened like I didn't do the same shit. It just feels better sometimes to say that. And but the the the rule is you can't use that as a as a uh as a weapon. Yeah, you can't say you piece of shit, you fucking idiot, yada yada yada. Um uh there are because like the theory is like there are words that are bad, like there are words that are bad and words that are hurtful, and we just shouldn't say those words that are hurtful to others. And some words are people find offensive, so we also need to be respectful of other people while also understanding that we can't control our emotions.

unknown 58:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

I'm not gonna explain this to my five-year-old, right? But because she's this it's not gonna go way overhead. But um, you know, like we listen, we go to a lot of shows, you listen to the musical, we listen to music all the time. There are things that people say in those that you hear swear words all the time. So if it's if it's a if it's in the song, um there are there are caveats to this, right? But if it's in the song, like you can say it. Like, because it just makes you feel better, it makes you sing harder the song, it makes you feel something. And those artists who made that are hoping that you feel something.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:43

So, and if it's a f it's a if it's a fuck here or there or shit. Um, but I will say, like, for the most part, um, fuck is replaced by crush in this house. Crush? Fuck. Crush. What the crush. What the crush?

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

Yeah. Yeah. I remember like Chris one day was like, uh, she was like, oh, what the crush in front of Haven. And Haven goes, you don't say what the crush, you say what the fuck. And like God damn it.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

Oh, there's so many hilarious ways your children will correct you, and that is a new one that I've not heard before. You don't say what the crush, you say what the crush. Next question. What's like one of your favorite toys or activities to play with Haven?

SPEAKER_03 59:24

Um, hmm, that's a good one. I love I love going for walks. Um and like going to the playground. I love watching her like play with like other kids, like play and interact with other kids. She's so good at just like making friends. Yeah. Um, and actually I've I've I've become really close with another dad because she went up to this random little girl at the Adventure Science Center here in Nashville and just goes up to her. We had been there for maybe 30 seconds, and she goes, Do you want to be my best friend? And the little girl's like, Oh, it's so sweet. And they just fucking took off and ran around and like went to her down. Like, hey man, I'm Ben. Hey, my name's Trevor, and we've just been close homies since then. And uh uh it was just such a fun, cool little organic relationship that happened. Um yeah, I just I love taking her to places to experience stuff. I fucking hate the the TV. The TV has its place, the screens have their place and whatever, but like took her to Chattanooga last weekend, we did the aquarium and we did the adventure center down there. Um yeah, uh she's she's great at traveling on planes. Um I love taking her to shows. So as far as like a specific thing, no, that's good. Not really, but like the playground and walk being outside. Because I always growing up, I was always outside. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Do you ever wish I wish that like I'm almost 40? I wish that like in the next decade of life I should just start more friendships like that. Be like, what's your favorite color? We got the same favorite color? Ride or die, let's do this. Best friend, let's go. I don't think it works that way, sadly. Sadly, it's not that simple.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

You know, I met a I met a buddy in LA who is still who who actually his family just moved out here a few years ago, but it it started like we were I was at a bar by my side, I was living in LA for like two weeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

And I was at this bar called the Burgundy Room, one of my favorite bars in the country. And uh I was sitting outside having a smoke and drinking a beer, and this dude comes up to me and he's like, I think I had like a carabiner with like keys and like drum key and shit like that on it. And he's like, What are you, a fucking drummer? I'm like, Yeah. He's like, like, what are you, a fucking guitar player? He's like, Yeah, and I'm like, You want to be friends? And then we've been best buds ever since. I so I I that's the one and only time I picked guy by the bar.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

That's amazing. That's amazing. I I knew a guy in college, or I knew two guys in college where they became friends once in sixth grade. They're like, Do you play guitar? Yeah, I play guitar. Do you listen to Creed? Yeah, I listen to Creed. They've been friends for my God. So Creed is awesome. We we just need to we need to simplify what makes us best friends. Um I feel like men are good at that though.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

Like we when we two when we when we can tune into that part of our brain of like wanting to wanting to make a new friend, we can go up to a random dude and like find something in common and then make the you know, make the effort to to be friends with that person. Yeah. That'd be like that's maybe that's just like a dude thing, but I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

I'm with you. Yeah, I feel like I'll have like tons of like friends who're like, what do you why are you friends with this? Because oh, we both think pie is better than cake sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:19

Okay, cool. That sounds great. Very simple people, very simple creatures we are.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Very simple.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:24

And then we need very few things.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

Yes. Um, last question is what is your least favorite kid show or movie? Like something if Haven wants to watch it, you're just like, fuck this, I hate this.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

Oh, I got a list of that. Anything fucking coconut. Oh, it's coconut.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

It's like number one or two.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

Number fucking one. Anything, well, and anything in that realm of like baby shit. Um, and I I I I feel really bad actually about this, but like I was like, this is like I she put up trying to put on something like that one day, and I was like, We're not watching this, this is for babies. And she goes to Chris and she's like, Daddy said I can't watch this anymore because this show's for babies, but I really like it, and I'm like, damn it. Now I feel bad. Damn it. Now I feel bad. How did she turn this around on me? Yeah, how the fuck did that happen? Yeah. Um, but there's not really much else that she uh there are like a couple songs that I'm like, holy shit. Like that chicken macaroni song, whatever the fuck is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

Oh, do you mean chicken banana?

unknown 1:03:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

Chicken banana. Chicken banana for like 10 minutes. Yeah, no, it's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:35

Oh, wait, no, it's not that one. No, it's chicken macaroni, chicken macaroni. What the fuck's it called?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Chicken wing, chicken wing, hot. Oh my god. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

I hate that song. That and uh uh God, I can't remember. There's there's a couple on my shit list for fucking songs, but yeah, any like the baby shit, I can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:59

But movies like I love, I try to get her like really into like the classic Disney movies, doesn't fuck care about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

And I'm like, but this is classic.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:06

She sort of got into Cinderella, but she also has like a big, like a low fear tolerance, like scary tolerance. So I love horror movies. So I'm like, come here, come watch this horror movie with that ass.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:15

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

And she's like, That's right, what the fuck? Just go watch, just watch a critters movie. They're cute, they're beautiful. Let's watch this. Have you ever seen Terrifier Haven?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

Oh god. That'd be great. Yeah, exactly. That's a club. Yeah. Well, at least uh at least you'll know what therapy you're paying for later on in life. Yeah, you know, yeah. No, I'm saving for it. I got the separate account. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Um, coconut is like, oh, it's that or caillou is like number one. Because coconut is so much like you look at it and you're like, none of this seems healthy. Like I feel like I'm bamboo.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

It's the same fucking song. There's like three songs in the entire thing and just different lyrics. Yep. Pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

It's awful. Oh my god. Of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:55

It's awful. And it's like some dude with uh with like a basic 3D program thing created. It's like oh my god. Oh, and Blippy. I fucking hate Blippy. I hate Blippy. If you've never done it before, by the way. I've never done it. We've avoided it. We've avoided Blippy. You know what Blippy is, though. Unfamiliar. Do yourself do yourself a favor. Look up Blippy Harlem Shake and watch that video because it is. If anybody knew, like I feel like there was a time where parents are like, oh, we don't watch Blippy anymore because of this video. Yeah, yeah. I feel like new parents, maybe this has got over their head, but like, look up that video. Okay. That dude, like, it's fucking I'm not even gonna spoil it. Just go look up Blippy Harlem Shake.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

Oh, look at Black. Yeah, okay, cool. Um, and there's also like three iterations of Blippy. I think we're on like blippy number three now, because Blippy is like a character, not a person. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. Just no good.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:50

No. Mr. We should she Mr. Rogers has made its way into like our watch watching now, which is which is great. Um, and actually, like Francois. Clemens, the officer, um, the the black officer that was on the show. Like he grew or he taught at Middlebury College, which is where I was high school, and met him a couple times and um just like got like the the real low down on Mr. Rogers and he was like that you'll never be the next person in your entire life. And I remember like talking a lot about um that guy, just like yeah, like there is a guy. Like I feel like child development right now is all bells and whistles. And Fred Rogers was like, here's the basic steps on like how to make sure your kid's a good person and how to make sure that they feel that you're listening to them, and like they're not complex, they're very simple people. You know, you just got you know yeah, yeah. That person gave a shit about that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

So he did. He gave a shit about it, and he um I would imagine if you ever had a conversation with Fred Rogers, it probably felt like you were he was there for every s every word of the sentence. And that's not something I can guarantee to my own family every time I talk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then last thing for you is just like moment for self-promotion. Like I know you said you don't like social media that much, but like if we follow you on social media, bands, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Do some promoting.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:12

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I definitely like want people to follow me. I just don't know that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:17

Um that you follow you followed me back, so I feel special now.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

Yeah, I don't do that to many people. Uh the emo orchestra show. Uh we're working on a uh we're rolling out a fall tour soon. You know, my roster is I mean, actually uh Hawthorne, I guess it's Hawthorne Heights, Amberlynn Acceptance. I'm gonna just read it because if I don't read this, I'm gonna miss somebody and then I'll get a text from some band. Like, you forgot to talk about me. Um Amberlynn, Emery, Emo Orchestra, Flake, Good Terms, uh Hawthorne Heights, Horse of the Band, Lost Souls, Mariachi El Bronx, Norma Gene, Punk Rock Factory, Shia Luke, uh, Sludge Mother, the early November. Uh, and I have a great developing artist at a Nashville talk, uh Nashville called Tori Grace. Um and uh yeah, so uh those uh you know those are the bands I work on every day. And um God, I don't really think I have any other shout-outs.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

I mean, that's a lot. That was like a that was a 10 list shout-out. I mean, that was pretty soft.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:21

It's busy. It's busy. It's a busy, it's a busy lifestyle. You know, like last thing I'll say in the music world is like continue to sport uh local venues. Go to shows, go to shows where you don't know one band on the bill, especially if it's like a ten dollar show. What are you gonna spend that ten dollars on? You know, like are you gonna sit at a bar and talk with the same people you can talk to, or are you gonna go to see bands you've never seen before, maybe find a new favorite band? Go do that. Yeah, cool. That's how we keep that's how we keep uh small businesses in play and uh or small businesses in business and and continue to uh grow and develop local music.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Yeah, I'm with you. Uh sincerely, thank you for sharing your story with me. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about your journey with fatherhood.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:02

Cool. Yeah, thanks for having me, man. This has been a lot of fun. It's uh it was a wild uh it was a little bit of a uh I don't even know the word to use. And it it was interesting to talk through that story. Yeah. Uh so thank you for giving me up the space to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

Yeah, man. Thank you. I appreciate it. Um if you're ever out in the Denver area, let me know. Uh happy to meet up, say hi. I definitely once in a while. I every once in a while end up back up in Nashville. So I'll hit I'll hit you up if I'm back there anytime soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:30

Yeah, please do.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

Appreciate it, man. Thank you. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. Make sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at the Imperfect Dads Podcast. And make sure to give us five stars for every listen to us. Music, editing, and production is all done by me. Make sure to tune in on Mondays and most Thursdays for episodes. This podcast is part of the Never at Phase Network. Make sure to go to Never at Phase Network.com to learn more about it.