Episode 257 | Stephen Stallings of Plot Points

On this episode of The Imperfect Dads Podcast, Devon reconnects with Stephen Stallings, frontman of the band Plot Points. Although they went to college together, it had been nearly 15 years since they last caught up, making this conversation equal parts reunion, music talk, and honest discussion about fatherhood.

Stephen shares what life has been like since moving to New York, balancing a full-time career with being a husband, dad, and musician, and the long journey of finally finishing Plot Points' latest EP. He opens up about how work, family responsibilities, and everyday life can slow down creative projects—and why it's still worth pursuing them.

The conversation also dives into the fun and relatable moments of parenting, including taking kids to baseball games, figuring out where to hide Christmas presents as they get older, learning that scavenger hunts are sometimes more fun for parents than kids, and making time to intentionally connect with your spouse every day.

They also reminisce about their college days in Nashville, talk about introducing their wives to concerts they weren't sure they'd enjoy, and why going to concerts alone can actually be a great experience.

Whether you're a dad, a musician, or someone trying to balance family life with creative passions, this episode is full of relatable stories, laughter, and honest conversations.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Fatherhood and raising a child in New York
• Balancing music, family, and a full-time job
• The making of Plot Points' new EP
• Staying creative as a husband and dad
• Marriage and finding daily ways to connect
• Taking kids to baseball games
• Parenting lessons and holiday traditions
• Going to concerts alone
• College memories and life in Nashville
• Growing up while still making the music you love

Follow us on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok YouTube. Look for new episodes of The Imperfect Dads Podcast every Monday and Thursday.

This podcast is part of the Never A Phase Network, follow them on instagram at @neveraphasenetwork and check out their podcasts like Emo Kids Anonymous  Wasting Time Podcast Certified Fangirl and The Ska Mailman

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to the Imperfect Dads Podcast. This is your host, Devon. We believe dads care deeply about their family and kids, but they don't always have a space to discuss what their life looks like. Our podcast is a space for dads to discuss the ups and downs of fatherhood and how they feel like they're holding it together, or how they're not. Thank you for joining us for this episode. This podcast is part of the Never A Face Network. Make sure to follow me on Instagram or go to the website neverface network.com. On this episode, we have Steven Stallings from the band Plot Points. Steve and I went to college together, but haven't really talked probably in like 15 years. So some of this conversation is catching up and remembering what natural is like when we both live there. We talk about taking our now wives to shows we probably didn't think they would like, but bands that we really love, going to concerts by yourself, connecting daily with your wife, life in New York with a kid, taking your kid to baseball games, trying to store Christmas presents when your kids get older, realizing a scavenger hunt is fun for you, but not for your kid, the years-long process of recording a new EP, all the ways he got busy and distracted from working on that new music, and the realities of making music when you work full time, and our husband and a dad. Just like one more thing. Oh, my bad. Steven, has it been fifteen years since I talked to you? What would you I mean, maybe if not longer?

SPEAKER_03 1:25

It on yeah, no, just just right at like 15 years. No, no, wait. Might be a little longer. Was it I it honestly might have been that that recording session was the last time we like spent time together in any meeting place? We might have been at shows together and like not really realized it. Um but like yeah, we had that session in fall in the spring of 2010, and then there's a good chance that we were both at like five to ten diarrhea planet shows after that at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Probably or like at uh I feel like Kinley Flynn and those guys would do house parties and we'd like end up at like a house at the same time. We have we either ended up at concerts together or at parties together, one of the two.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

He totally came to parties at my house. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yep, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yep. Which I do miss that feel like if someone is like, oh, college was such a good day, I think the casualness of hangouts. Because like right now, if someone walked into my house, I'd be like, Who the fuck were you? Like, what like what's going on? I know. But like for some reason, age like 23, 24, because yeah, like I lived in East Nashville for a while. I was like John Gothschak, if you remember that guy. And like, yeah, you just walk over and be like, who's in my house today? I don't know. Hopefully it's a good vibe. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Yeah, man. I lived in uh I lived in this house off 12th South my last semester, and I was with uh Spencer Noe. You remember that guy? Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. And uh and a couple other like musician recording engineer kind of guys, and uh their friends would just cycle in and out. I was like kind of the odd man out in the house, and you know, they were they were great. It was a it was a good vibe. But uh there it would just be kind of random dudes, and then uh one day it was like somebody's birthday, so I tagged along to uh to pancake pantry, and we were just like joking around about something, and then this guy Ben uh was like it went from like kind of a hypothetical to like, oh yeah, like when I was on tour in Germany and I was like, and it was Ben Rechter, and like she hadn't he hadn't become what Ben Rechter is now, but like it was 2011, like on the come up, Ben Rechter, and so now it's so funny to see him like soaring, and I'm like, that's that guy from my couch. Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Classic old national. I don't know what it's like. Uh not there's still some of that vibe, but it by the time we left, it was uh not so much.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Yeah, we took a road trip down there last summer, and in the final hours of the trip, we were trying to do the like, all right, where should we go? What are our spots? Closed, closed, closed, closed, closed, everything like 99% of everything we thought of. Even like, even down to the like, we don't want to really go to Cafe Coco, but like we went there at the end of the state, it's gone. We went, we went and saw Of Montreal at Cannery Ballroom and then uh to Cafe Coco after on our first date, and both of those places gone.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah. I only discovered, I think Mike Millette's the reason I discovered Of Montreal, and I think I've been obsessed ever since. And I think it was, yeah, seeing them at like Mercy Lounge as a freshman, and they're such like a immersive experience to see live that I remember being like 19 and being like, what am I watching? And this is fantastic. You're so this would probably have been like the next time they came through Nashville.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

I I was like, it was kind of a Hail Mary to like when when uh Maggie and I had just first barely met, and I was just like, I'm just gonna ask her out on a date, like whatever, who cares? And uh, and I I took her to see of Montreal because I was like, all right, if she can handle this, she can hang. Like she was she was a musical theater major, so I was like, I feel like this could be in a weird adjacent way, kind of like okay with her. And like, yeah, if this doesn't weird her out, like she is probably pretty well-rounded and flexible. Like so uh it was it was a litmus test, and she was like, that was awesome, but not you know, it it wasn't the like we're gonna go have a in-depth discussion on the merits of uh you know, whatever. And so it was just like, yeah, this is cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

And it was a it was a good like first gut check of like, could this relationship happen? I made Heather go see cursive with me at Mercy Lounge once. And so that was my litmus test of like, here's a real obscure band that I've been obsessed with and will continue to be obsessed with. And they're like aggressive but beautiful at the same time. And so if you're cool with seeing this version of me, you must really like me. So and she did, still does for some reason. So that's good. You you you can be grateful every day.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

I I am the same way. I at one of at one of the first like shows that Maggie that I took Maggie to, she like didn't get the memo on like everyone wearing black and skinny jeans and like walking, but it was it was a rock the block, so it was like everyone was walking between exit in and the end. Yeah, and uh and diarrhea planet was playing, and I was like, you're good here, and I just like ran into the pit.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

That okay, so I'm now at a point where like um, especially with kids, I am more than happy to go to shows by myself. Like tomorrow night, Jimmy Jimmy World is gonna play um Red Rock, so I'm gonna go see Jimmy World and like Sunny Day, Real Estate, and the Get Up Kids. And like my wife is like, or Heather's like, no part of her is like, do I get to go too? She's like, Yeah, no, have fun. You go do that stuff, I'll be here. Do you have that relationship with Maggie as well nowadays? Oh, it's been a long time of that. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

Because I was working in music supervision and still like kind of work in that world, but uh for for 12 years right out of college, I had the same advertising agency, music supervisor job. And uh, and so I got into any and every show for free. Oh, and so I would go to especially like pre-dog and pre-kids, like I was going to every single show I felt like going to. And she would come for a while, and then I would be like, Are you having fun? Like you can't see anything because she's a foot shorter than me. And so I was just like, you know, you really don't have to feel like you have to tag along to this. And uh, and so she stopped going to shows with me on a regular basis a while ago. But like it's all like I always try to, you know, include her in the things that she would really enjoy. Like I uh I I've taken her to see Paramore a few times. Oh, cool. And uh, and we've those are the ones that stand out. I really honestly don't I can't remember what else uh we've we've seen together. But yeah, like my MO is just like show up right before the band I want to see, uh stand along the back wall, because I'll always be able to see.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Pretty much. Yep. No, I'm I'm 6'4, if you don't remember. And 6'4 as well. Yeah, and Heather is five one. I'll say five one. Oh wow so like yeah. Um, so we do a lot of like um Americana artists, like Jason Isbull, Josh Ritter, Nickel Creek, all that. And they usually play like in churches and like places where you can sit down, and like it is just very convenient. Because like, yeah, I don't want like I don't want to be the guy who's like middle of the crowd and everything blocking the view for 30 people behind you, but also I want my wife to be able to see.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

So it's yeah, I think the only show in probably like 15 years that I've like really made a point to be like, I don't care if I block anyone's view, was uh Manchester Orchestra doing the 10-year anniversary of Mean Everything to Nothing. I was like, I will inconvenience any stranger for a better view of this show.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, yep. That's how I felt for um besides Curse of the Get Up Kids or like the I learned bar chord so I could play get up kids songs, like that band. And when they did something right home about 25th anniversary, yeah, I was just like, I'm standing where I'm standing. Yeah, and like I'm gonna try to not give in people's way or be somewhat cognizant of it. I remember I saw G Love and the Special Sauce once because my buddy was opening for them, and there's like a group of women who are all like five two, and they like stood in front of me, like, is this good? And I was like, I don't know how to dickishly say you didn't affect anything. Like I know. I don't like no, we're fine, we're good, but also like you changed nothing for me. Yeah, you couldn't possibly inconvenience me in this way. Not even slightly. Um, what's like okay, this is one of my favorite questions to ask. Like, Jason Isabel, Josh Ritter, Nickel Creeker are definitely like we get a babysitter every time, we figure it out, we pay the extra money for it. For you guys, what's like a band where if they're in town, you're like this pay for the sitter, whatever the cost is, we're making sure to go see them.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

It's paramour for sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yeah. Uh I if Nickel Creek came back, that would be one. Like, I you see the mandolin hanging behind me. I do, yeah, yeah. I my dad uh stumbled upon Nickel Creek at a bluegrass festival in like 99 or 2000, like before the like official printing of the first album. Like we had uh we we had like the early cover of the first album that I can't even like find a an image of online. Yep. And so um I go I go way, way, way back for uh for Nickel Creek. We saw them here uh at the uh town hall with Prairie Home Companion, which was very, very cool. That's awesome. Yeah. Uh pre-Garrison Keeler cancellation, Prairie Home Companion. Yep. Um but uh but yeah, Paramour is definitely it for both of us. Um I can't honestly even think of what else we both have seen recently. Oh, um I I I guess we probably would do it for a show, but do you know the band Boys Go to Jupiter? No, I don't. That's one that she kind of discovered on uh Spotify and uh and we were both like, ooh, a band we both like. And so uh we we did get a sitter to go to their uh like album listening party because I was I was kind of like courting them for a work thing, and so I went to go uh to go kind of meet with them and uh and got some like cool husband points out of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah, that's awesome. I think I've gotten to know some of the Jason Isbo guys, so they've gotten us free tickets to a couple of their shows out here. Never Red Rocks. Red Rocks is like I never anticipate someone. I'm just like, nope, I'll I'll pay for that ticket, that's good. But like Mission Ballroom is another venue out here where it seems like it's uh big enough where if someone can get you on the guest list. Okay, I got you. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool, that's really sweet. So I got us into Isbool like two years ago, or the band was nice enough to let me get a free ticket to Ispool like two years ago. And they're like, oh, that's nice. And I was like, it is nice, cool. All right, now all the ticket money is going towards the babysitter. So that's that's cool. That's like three times as much as you would have paid for tickets for a babysitter. Pretty much. That is the hardest. Like, I I don't know um how you guys are, but I feel like we are very focused on like trying to figure out a connect daily because I know if we wait for a date night or something like that to be like that, this is when we need to connect, the amount of pressure on that date night just ruins the entire thing. Kids will still interrupt you whenever you're trying to connect day-to-day life, but like if I wait until we get the every other month, you know, date night, and that's whenever we talk about real stuff, it's like, oh, that's not gonna, I'm not gonna know what to do. I'm just gonna sit there and be like, there's too much to talk about. I don't know what to do. Like I'm frozen. I don't know what to do here.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

Yeah, it gets it gets so loaded when you when you try to, you know, wait for the perfect time. Yeah. I'm not gonna say we're, I'm gonna say I'm not good enough about like thinking about that, like uh, you know, what's what's a way to do this in a micro sense so that the macro level doesn't become so pressurized. Yeah. Um we have some great like coffee shops within walking distance. And so especially now that the weather we had such a brutal winter that I'm still I'm still trying to get into the thought process of like, oh, we can leave the home and go do things. It's it's the hardest I've ever had to work to like remember that I can go outside recently. And so we try to occasionally like go to the little coffee shop down the street and just like sit there with Maggie's planner because she refuses to use a digital calendar, which is just I know that world.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

I know that world.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Yep, yep. Uh it's it's you know, it causes some funny uh mis not misunderstandings, but just uh lack of knowledge of events for both of us sometimes. And uh and so yeah, we will we'll go kind of do the catch-up and talk about, you know, like more so than just like the what are you doing today? Like, yeah, where is this leading? What like what do you want to be working towards kind of things? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yeah. I feel like Heather still does the physical planner, but then we'll also put it in her actual calendar. But like the actual process of like writing it down works for her. And like, yeah, I am now very pro it's funny how much more organized being married makes you because dude, 20-year-old me, I didn't, I just showed up. Like it was like I'll get there whenever I get there. Like, I'm pretty sure this is happening today, and now it's like I got three kids, man. I can't I can't wing it. There's no winging it ever again. Yeah. Did you guys get married like pretty fast? No, we did a long time, right? Yeah, we started dating in 2008, and then um she graduated in 2009. I graduated in May of 2010, and then she did grad school for two years. So we actually got married in 2013. So we dated for like five years, that's what it is. So yeah. Which by Nashville standards or by Belmont standards, yeah, we were an old couple. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Yeah, because we we it it's so funny. It felt like not a crazy timeline at the time, but we started dating in early 2010, got engaged a year and a half later, and got married a year after that. So it's like the the in in retrospect, it's like shell shock just to like think about the the pace of things. But at the time, it was like, oh yeah, we're taking our time. You know, we can get engaged during school, like we waited till the end of summer after we graduated. That seems very reasonable. I I remember being in school and being like, this is crazy, people are getting engaged.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And then like three months later. Well, it's it's uh, I mean, going to a small Christian college and being in the South, like, yeah, I mean, it is like all this, there are a lot of the stereotypes of like you're going to college not for a degree, but to find a spouse. Like, I I know we both know people who were like, I want to be a pastor and I'm looking for my pastor wife. And you're just like, okay, that's an interesting dynamic. You're already saying, okay, cool. I won't talk to you about power dynamics and God at all. So that's fine. We'll just I don't know how to be your friend and we'll see how this goes.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Right. Right. Yeah. You know, it's it it was so, so not on my on my like to-do list. And it just, you know, it just happened like that, and it's it's funny in retrospect, but you know, as I'm sure you know, and and it's the only way to really make it work, you just change over time and allow the other person's space to change and change together and make it work.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yep. We we had our first kid at so we had kids when we were 28, 30, and 33, I think. And like having our first kid at 28 for our friend group, like uh most of our friend's kids were already like seven or eight. And we were like, we're not like late bloomers, we just weren't ready. And like 28 isn't that young, like old.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

We we had our kid at 28, and when we went to our hospital visit at uh New York Press on 168th Street uh in Manhattan, we were like, we felt like teen parents. Like everyone else there was like late 30s to 40. It was literally all these people in their late 30s, at least, us and then a literal teen mom. Like we felt closer to the teen mom than the majority of people in that group. And like we were pretty much the first people in our friend group to to have, you know, we we made friends with people with kids, and we had you like uh we had work friends with kids, but like in our actual like social circle, uh, we were like the first by years, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, which also like is like the trend for bigger cities and everything. So I mean like it it makes sense, but also like it's still confusing because yeah, I remember like being more like because whenever you have a kid, no matter how old you're it's such like a life-changing event, identity-changing event. That like I'm not like, oh, I should have done this earlier. I'm just like, I'm we got pregnant at all, like we have a healthy kid, like that that's freaking insane and awesome. So it's real fun. Yeah. Where do you guys live? Do you live in Manhattan or are you like Brooklyn?

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Where are you in New York? We used to live in uh Upper Manhattan. Now we are in Riverdale in the Bronx. Um actually spite and dival, if uh for if anyone knows anything of uh the Bronx. It's one of those things like I'm from the suburbs of Houston. And if I say I'm from Houston and someone goes like, oh, I'm from Houston, I go, I'm not from Houston. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where it's it's it's like microcosms, and it's easier to just be like, I live in the Bronx, like I live in Riverdale, but then it's like if someone grew up in northern Riverdale, I'm like, I don't live up there. Like that's where Carly Simon grew up. That's where like JFK live. I'm like, even though I'm like a you know five minutes south of there, it's a distinct difference. Uh so Spytendival is the is the area of the Northwest Bronx we live in, and it's amazing. Yeah, like we uh huh the majority of kids go to the public school that's like a 10-minute walk away. Uh there's a bunch of families in our building. There's not only families in our building that like have kids uh around our kids' age, but there's also like people who have kids my age who still live and raise their kids in this building. So it's like it's really obvious like the longevity of of this building that we live in, and I never want to move again because moving is the most miserable thing you can do. And uh yeah, you did it more recently than I did, um, and longer than I did. We had moved to Connecticut uh mid COVID, and so uh we were near my wife's family for a little bit, and then we kind of hit. Oh no, we I I know exactly what the moment was. It was the first snow, and I had to shovel snow for the first time in my life, and I was like, we're going back because Maggie had been ready to go back for a while, and I was like, honestly, I don't know. Like I think we probably belong in the city, but like I'm really it's like kind of too close to call so far. And then the first time I had to shovel snow in any like real sense, I was like, I want to live in a building with a staff, and I don't care how much I pay for that staff to shovel the snow.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, I hate it so much. Best kept secret of Colorado is that since we're so close to the sun, it just melts. Like, so like literally, like it snowed um on like May 6th, it snowed like seven inches. It was gone by the next day. That's like crazy. Yeah, so like we live in a neighborhood with a lot of like older people, and like so. Sometimes I'm like, it'll be snowing in the morning, but I need to make sure I go out there and shovel. And then by like 3 p.m. it's gone. So I'm like, oh yeah, no, but like it's but I grew up in Indiana, man. So I'm familiar with like the you shovel a lot, you get out there, and then like you just watch it slowly melt for the next three months. And I was like, this is not charming, this is not fun, this is a yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

We we had between two snowstorms, I think we had probably like six weeks of it this summer or this winter, and it was so brutal. And we have a car in the city now because we got a car when we went to Connecticut. We didn't have a car before, so like uh COVID hit when my son was two, and so um two and a half, those half years are important. Um and so uh we got a car when we were in Connecticut, and so when we came back to the city, it was like, okay, well, we have to have a place where you can functionally have a car because in our old neighborhood in Washington Heights, the the street parking is just like a parking lot. No one actively uses their car unless like kind of on the weekends or on holidays. And so there's like street cleaning twice a week, and everyone just goes and double parks on the other side of the street for an hour and a half and sits in their car and then Moves back after the truck goes by. So it's like it you you can't have like an office job because someone has to be available to come sit in the car for an hour and a half twice a week. Yeah, of course. And so we knew that like we can't live in a neighborhood where we have to deal with that. And we had some friends who had moved to Riverdale and uh and had kind of gotten the lay of the land uh before us. And so we we live on a really great block where like um above us there are um a bunch of apartment buildings, and then everything south of us for a good long stretch is single family homes. And so the population density is not your typical like New York neighborhood where uh not only are there fewer people living in these houses, but they have driveways, and so you get um you get like just great super available street parking. Uh our window has only been busted twice within the span of a month. Uh we just learned where not to park. Uh that's fair. We we learned the strategy. It's like we could pay $200 a month or whatever it is for like the lot at our building, or we could take the risk and uh maybe every so often uh it actually is covered by our deductibles. So you're fine. But you're good. We have like a zero dollar deductible on glass, so it's really just inconvenient. Oh nice. And especially when it happened twice a month, it was the shame of showing up to the same body shop and being like, I'm sorry. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

And you're like, I don't even have anything in this car. I don't know what they're trying to steal. True. Like, do they want a car seat? I don't know. Like the first one happened like four days before Christmas.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Are you serious? That sucks. Yeah. And we did have some stuff in the car. That sucks. We had been using it for storage. Uh and but luckily it wasn't like anyone's Christmas presents.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah. Where do you okay? So where do you hide your Christmas presents? Because like if you're in like an apartment, how do you how do you keep the um reality of Santa alive? Well, Santa's done.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Uh, okay. Yeah, yeah. My son's eight and a half now. So uh by like seven, he was starting to come around. He's a very detail-oriented, uh, like I call him production-minded. Uh, like when he watches a movie, he wants to know, he wants to immediately watch the behind the scenes. Oh my gosh. Like he he was born for the DVD era. He really missed out. Yeah. But you know, we try to find what we can on YouTube and uh and watch the process of any of this stuff. Like he loves that kind of stuff. And so he was thinking about the the logistics of Santa really early on. And um, and so we kept up the charade for as long as we could and like answered questions with questions. And you're like, he brings your presents, doesn't he? And uh and that worked for a while, and then eventually we were just like, okay, like stop asking. Yeah, okay, you figured it out. Um but even after that, it became more of a like hide the presence thing because I didn't want him to be like, my presents are all here. Oh yeah, oh no. I have I have uh a horribly messy office, and uh and so I have this corner that's always just kind of a pile of stuff, and so I just made like a section of the pile and put another pile on top of it, and he didn't find anything. He also didn't like actively look, so that'll be the problem is when he's actively looking. Yeah, we have a storage space downstairs that's like pretty packed, but we could fit some things in it, and then my wife has a storage unit at the U-Haul down the road where like we could really bring in the big guns and take it to like a different property if we really hide stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

The reality of the coordination on Christmas Eve of like, okay, so when do we like okay, so which present is at which space? Like, where is because we used to have like a laundry room and has like shelves under it or like cabinets? So like that's where I put everything. It's because the kids don't the kids have no purpose on the laundry room. So that's where I put, but like I couldn't imagine the amount of mishaps of like, okay, so did we is the is the car that we bought him is it at the U-Haul? Is it in my office or is it here? Like, where is it? And you're just both like, I don't know. And you're like, when are you gonna have time to do it or am I gonna have time to do it? And you're like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Like uh, yeah, damn it. Man, he uh his big Christmas gift this year was a PS5, and I had that whole box just like in the corner with a bag over it, and he was none the wiser, and this was like it wasn't just like the thing he wanted for Christmas, it's the thing that had completely like commanded his life and his entire brain power for months. Yeah, and it was just sitting there in the corner, like since Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

That's amazing. We I I feel like at my parents were just like, hey, if we see you open up the gift and it looks like you're not surprised or like you look like you already saw it, we'll just return the gift. So that's how they stopped us from like looking through their closet, looking through their bedroom, and they're like, if it seems obvious that you've already seen this before and we didn't think you had any idea you were gonna get this present, we're gonna return it. So don't like don't go snoop it, don't go looking. And I'm like, that's valid. That's fair. That pissed me off too. I get that.

unknown 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

I would I would try to like peel off the the where like a gift wrap was uh was folded.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

I tried to kind of like for stuff under the tree. I was really flying too close to the sun. Yeah. I remember once they got like a whenever we're all older, um, they like got an extra car for us or something like that. They like found a new car and I like shook the box and it sounded like car kids. It's like, oh, you got a new, you guys, did you guess the car? And my mom was like, Nope. I'm like, did you? I'd be so pissed though. I'd be so pissed. Like, now on the other side of that, if my kid guessed on the first like shake of a box exactly the big surprise I got in them, I'd be like, God, just no. This is gonna be surprised. You and your siblings fight over who gets to drive the car all the time. We got you another one.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

God dude, I I had a I had a gift giving mishap for my son's birthday last year. This is yeah, this is uh indicative of of kind of how last year went for us. His uh his Christmas present, like I said, was a PS5. His uh his birthday present uh a few months before was a Nintendo Switch 2. No. It's one of those things that I call the only child tax where sometimes you just gotta go for the big gifts for your only child who like really needs entertainment. Anyway, um, I he he was really excited about it, and I like took a page from my dad's book when I was a kid and like did a scavenger hunt for it and was like, you know, look in this part of the apartment, look in this place. And there were like four or five clues, and each time it wasn't at the next location, he got more anxious and more worried that it wasn't there. And so by the time he found it, he was a wreck. I would have not predicted that. He was like, I I clearly didn't either. No, he was a mess. And he was like, I thought it wasn't gonna be there. And I was like, okay, I should have, knowing what I know now, I should have said it's here. You have to go on a scavenger. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah. Oh, well, because it's like it to me is implied. Yeah, if I gave you like a scavenger hunt or something like that, there's a treasure at the end of the map. But like, if I I think it's really hard to remember that like whenever you do new things for your kids, they've never done it before. So like they don't have the cultural frame of references that you do. Yeah. So like you're there being like, oh, it's a scavenger hunt. You find it at the end, and there's like, I don't know what any of this means. I know. And then by explaining it, you feel like you ruin it, so you don't want to explain it. Right. But like, as I'm giving you a bunch of riddles. What's a riddle? Ah shit. Um I try to trick you to find something I want you to find. Well, that doesn't sound nice. No, it's fun and playful. Um, yeah, I just don't want to straight up hand you a switch. So how do I do this? I want you to work for it. Just a little bit. Just a little. Just a little. Oh. Was Maggie in the corners being like, Steven, what do you do? Like, what by by the like by the time it got bad, sh I think she was like moved along.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Like, if there's another skip step, skip it.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

I also love the thought of like trying to be elaborate and fun for your kid and it ruining the moment the entire time.

unknown 30:43

Dude.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Because like you're trying to keep whimsy alive. Like, that's what like as uh I get older, I'll be like 40 next year and everything. I'm like, how do I keep whimsy and like playfulness alive? It's by doing ridiculous things like this. Right. But like, yeah, to your seven or eight-year-old, they don't they don't know what that means. And you're like, oh great.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Yeah, I mean that applies to like so so many things. I we had Thursday and Friday off of school last week, and uh and there was a Yankees Day game on Thursday, and we're a quick like commuter rail trip from Yankee Stadium, and so we went to the game, and he doesn't play baseball, he doesn't know the rules of baseball, yeah. But you know, he was asking me to like explain it to him as it went. We had the binoculars, like I they were like my granddad's binoculars, they've been in my family forever. Like we were all I I was watching minor league games through those binoculars as a kid, and um and so I was trying to explain the game to him and everything, and then I got up to go get food, and when I came back, he had like fully unlocked from the game, and like he was not paying attention, he was not asking about the rules, he just wanted to go home, and and it was not like not that it's whimsy, but it's the same idea of like, dude, it's a Thursday during the school year, and you are at Yankee Stadium and you're complaining about the ice cream I just got you because it's too much ice cream and it's draining. And uh and like I it's the the the the reality of it is that he doesn't have any appreciation for baseball, and that's fine. But you know, I grew up without a major league team in New Orleans, and then we eventually moved to Houston, and you know, we like I I my I had family in Houston, so I was always like cool with the Astros, but like I grew up going to minor league baseball, and like the Cubs came and played at the Superdome one time, and it was like the event of the year, and uh and so like to have been taken to any major league game on a Thursday as an eight-year-old, I would have been over the moon. Yeah, but he has this down the street, and honestly, like Yankee Stadium kind of sucks. It's I've never been to Yankee Stadium. It's well, it's not Yankee, it's like Yankee Stadium part two, because they like pour the original down, and like instead of making a good, interesting stadium, they made just kind of this like fax copy of Yankee Stadium, from what I understand. I never went to the original. Okay. Everyone who uh who you know has been to the original is like, yeah, I don't really know what they were thinking with this new one because it's just yeah, I I describe it as utilitarian. It's like it is a ballpark. There is food there. We have accomplished the ballpark. No, like is there a Shake Shack like there is at City Field? No. Uh, you know, like you can get soft serve, you can get a hot dog and whatever, and like the food's good, but it's just like you know, like I I love Camden Yards in Baltimore, where it's like I can get like hand-cut kettle chips with lump crab and old bay on top, and it's like I'm in Baltimore, baby. You go to New York and I'm like, or you go to the Yankee Stadium, you're like, Yeah, the Yankees are playing. Like, that's about it. And uh, and so you know, I'm I'm trying to not tell him that. I'm like, it's Major League Baseball.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

And he's like, I'm playing. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Well, also, like to me, like the Yankees are like the them or the Knicks are like the team of of Manhattan. So, like to me, I'm like, oh, that should be like a world-class stadium, it should be a world-class experience. And like, I mean, Rockies games, like the Rockies are awful, but like they're fun because like, yeah, they've got like ridiculous hot dogs, it's a really cool park, they've got a playground. Like, they know that like the product on the field is just okay. Right. So I've so like so. What's your experience then? Like, you can bring in food if you want, like, they've made it like really accessible to go to a game. So, like, if it's better to go to a Rockies game than a Yankees game, that doesn't make any sense to me.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

I know. It I actually saw an article about this recently that like almost all ballparks allow outside food and it's become like a tradition of baseball, and I do love that. We like brought sandwiches the other day because I'm not paying like you know ten dollars for hot dogs for everybody, because why? Um but uh but we are to speaking of whimsy, we are trying to redeem the baseball experience. We're taking him to a minor league game in Coney Island on the last day of school where the cyclones play, and it's like typical perfect minor league baseball where there's like entertainment between every inning, you're sitting there like watching roller coasters in the distance, you're right on the beach, like it's so great. And I I hope that's gonna show him that like baseball isn't just utilitarian uh like existence, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Well, we try like it's really interesting to do that stuff because like I didn't grow up caring about sports. I started caring about them once I got into college because there's like more connection to Indiana and everything. Yeah. So now like I um try to get my kids to like go to sports stuff, but I always do with the expectation of like they're gonna be bored out of their mind within 10 minutes. Yeah. And like just try to keep like I never go to I try to never go to a game with my kids that I want to watch the game. Because I'm like, well, I'm just gonna be pissed. I'm gonna be mad the entire time. They're gonna be children and I'm gonna be mad at them. So like just I I think it's I always say this, but I think it's really funny how much of parenting is being like, if I do this, will I just be angry in the corner the entire time? Yeah. You either change your expectations or you don't go do that thing, man. Like, which one are you gonna do? And like, yeah, sports is a great example of that. Like, if we go to Rockies game, by the fourth inning, every kid is like, I'm done. I'm like, cool, we'll head out. That's what I'm saying. We left the Yankees game in the fourth inning. Spot on. The fourth inning is where it happens. Yeah, well, I mean, they've been sitting still, they've been paying attention. You've already probably yeah, like first inning, I'm like, no treat, we're not getting ice cream, we're not doing that. Then by like the third inning, I'm like, all right, cool, we'll get the ice cream and everything. Then by like the fourth or fifth, they're like, So why are we still here? And you're just like, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

That's uh because sometime in the next hour and a half to two hours, one really cool thing could happen. Yeah. And to me, I'm like, that's baseball, baby.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

That's space. Yeah, yeah. And I I love soccer, I'm a big soccer person. So like, yeah, going to like a soccer game, it's like you might watch a zero-zero game, and it's the most exciting 90 minutes you've ever watched in your life. Oh, unless you're seven. Yeah, then it's torture.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Yeah, I'm I'm curious how the World Cup is gonna go now that he's like old enough to pay attention and and has some like he he doesn't know that much about soccer, but like his friends do, and so he's like, Dad, who's Messi? And I'm like, soccer player, I don't know. Like, very good soccer player. One of the good ones. Yeah, he's like one of the names I've heard as someone who watches the World Cup and that's it. Yes. Um, but yeah, I I'm I'm regretting not like exposing him to more basketball because I'm realizing that that's the sport that's best for kids because someone's constantly scoring. Yeah, that's true. But it sucks here because to your point, like the Knicks are the you know, the the basketball team, the Rangers are the hockey team, and they play in like America's arena. And so tickets are disgustingly expensive.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

It's crazy. We went and saw Colbert for one of his final shows like uh in April or so. And I remember I think it was whenever the Knicks were playing the Hawks, and I remember being like, we're staying like in Broadway, like you're like, yeah, like basically like most tour Times Square area. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, like let's say I'm not gonna buy a ticket to go watch another games against the Hawks, but how much is that? And I think like the third tier was like 500 bucks starting. And I was like, oh, that is it's gross. That's a lot, that's a lot. And then I looked up tickets to like the Nuggets games out here, and it was like 150. And I was like, okay, population density, a lot less, you know, very different. Yeah, different, but oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yeah, it's it's completely insane. I I assume it's just they they make enough off of tourists who will pay whatever it costs. Yeah, I think so. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

How do you feel? How do you feel about mom Donnie issuing the order that kids can stay up late to watch the Knicks? Did you agree with that decision? How do you feel about that? My child ain't finding out about that.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

And whoever tells him is on the shit list. That's valid. He I I he heard me, he was getting ready for bed and he heard me say to my wife, like, I'd like to watch the Knicks game tonight for game one. He was like, I want to watch the Knicks. I was like, You're going to bed. And that was before I even really realized how long a basketball game is. Because I don't watch a lot of basketball. It it feels short and it lasts like three hours. Uh and so I am glad because he doesn't do well with staying up late. Um and so I especially like he we've we've done a good job of like not telling him what's happening, uh, but sometimes he'll hear. So we're we're actually keeping him up late tomorrow night because the um the New York Philharmonic is doing their concerts in the park this week. And so um they're playing in Van Courtland Park right up here in the Bronx uh tomorrow night. And I'm like, that's something you can stay up for. Like an orchestra concert and fireworks and like running around in the park with your friends. That's cool. That's worth it. Like we'll take him out to trivia with our friends every once in a while, but like he doesn't actually care enough about anything on TV for us to like warrant letting him stay up just to like watch the Super Bowl or like a basketball game. It's like I there's a chance that if it comes to game four, like I don't know, I don't think he cares. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

No. We ended up getting tickets to uh there's a World Cup game in Kansas City on like July 3rd that like one of my buddies got like face value tickets for. And so like I'm taking my youngest is Josh, he's about to be five. So I was like, hey, you know, buy Josh and me a ticket, like that'd be awesome. It'd be sweet to take my son to a World Cup game. Like that'll be amazing. And then like a month ago, they released the time of it, and it's at 8 30 p.m. And I was like, God, it'll be 7 30 to his body, it'll be 7 30 to his body because they're in Central Warren Mountain, but I'm just like, oh god damn. Oh yeah, yeah. We we try to hit bedtime between like 7.30 and 8. So I'm like, eight.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

No, not happy.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Nope. Nope. And it's just like, all right, but like already going into this, I'm gonna be like, okay, cool. Whenever he wants ice cream, buy him the ice cream. Whenever he wants this, get him like just already building in an extra 70 bucks. I'm gonna spend out the game just to keep him focused and not having a tantrum because he's tired and exhausted, and I'm the problem here.

unknown 41:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Yep. We did a we did a Mets game around that age, and he just spent the entire game mad that he couldn't see Mr. Met. He was he had the binoculars just looking for Mr. Met the entire time. And he would be happy when he could see Mr. Met, and then he would go away like, where'd he go? Where'd he go? We had a sketchbook because we don't go anywhere without a sketchbook for him, and so he was just sitting there drawing Mr. Met. He had never seen Mr. Met until we pulled into the parking lot.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yep. My wife's family's all from like the Philly area, and I feel like if any of them ever find out who the Philly fanatic is, they'd have the same obsession. Just like, what is this creature? They got, what is this? Oh, yes. I mean, listen, they got a lot of things. Philly does all right with mascots. Yeah, they do. For sure. That's cool. Do you guys I trying to entertain kids whenever you have downtime is like parenting 101, I feel like. And like we try not to do screens. We also do a lot of drawing. So if it's like, hey, we're gonna travel something like that, let's bring you can doodle on or something. That way you can still like be entertained or not be like frustrated we can't do what we came here to do, but not also just put a phone or a screen in your face.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Yeah. Yeah, we um I I commend you for limiting screen time because we're not the we It's hard. It's really hard. We've lost that battle, honestly. Um, but we try to impose limits. The weekends are where it gets real dicey. Yeah. Uh but uh especially on the on the um the weekdays, we we we have fairly reasonable limits, but we we also are like the the line gets drawn at the phone. I like I'm not handing you my phone. Yes, there have been times like I I play in the orchestra at the college nearby, and uh and there have been times where like uh for a concert where like she doesn't want to bring in his iPad, she'll just be like, Okay, be on my phone during the concert. If you don't want to draw, like it just you just gotta stay quiet and still. And that's like an emergency situation. Yep. And uh and I'm also like, you don't have to come, you don't have to bring him. She's like, no, I want to be there, I want him to be there. I'm like, okay, so that's your choice. Like you can manage that however you'd like. I'm happy to just know I cannot help you at all. I'm on stage playing. I'm a long way away. Yeah. Um and that's worked out perfectly fine. But like that's where I draw the line is like, I am absolutely not handing you my phone. It's just not happening. Uh, but yeah, he's he's great with uh with art, he loves to draw, and so that's like the the number one like it has to be in the tote bag to leave the house is a sketchbook and like three pencils freshly sharpened. The the sharpener is by the door. That's like how much we have to have sharp pencils to get out the door.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yep. Yep, yeah, that's all. Awesome though. That's really cool. Um, I haven't asked you about your new before we wrap up and everything. I haven't asked you about new music and everything and all that. And I feel like your experience of trying to make new music is very dad-like. Because didn't it take you like two years to record like six songs? Is that what you told me? Oh boy, it's four songs in seven years. And and your son is how old? Can you remind me? Eight. Yeah, okay, yeah, that traps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

So so I mean, the songs had been kicking around for a long time. Um, and so for the longest time, it was like, my project is like writing and demoing, and I don't really care what happens from that. And then eventually, when like I had a lot of time to myself because Maggie was uh working in theater, she was working out of town a ton for like all of 2015. She was on tour with kinky boots all around the country. Yeah. And um, and so like even before the tour, she was doing out-of-town contracts a lot. And so, like, I had a ton of time, no kid, no pet, like no one needing me, no one uh occupying my time. And so I had a lot of time to just like write and and whatever. And um, and so by the time like it gets a few years later, and we have a kid, and uh, and like there's a lot less time to just like freewheelingly think and come up with ideas, it was like, okay, so I have like kind of a little stable of songs. Maybe I should actually do something with them. And so I sat down with this guy, Francis Garcia, who is uh uh he is in my like work circles, and he is like a super legit, like old school 90s Austin pop punk guy. And they're actually so his band had two songs in Biodome, I think. And uh sure it I I know it's Biodome, I think it's two songs, and then they were like about to be the band in the prom scene in Clueless before it was Mighty Mighty Boss Tones. That's awesome, and so um yeah, he was he he's he's super cool, and like there's surprisingly not a lot of people in the like music supervision industry that came from like DIY and like local shows, and so I have really found my people that I've like glommed on to to be like we share a similar background and aesthetic or uh um ethic, whatever. And ethos, bam. Yeah, and so um I just like asked Francis if I could come by his studio one day and just like played demos for him. And he was like, I really like this. Like, if you want to like come record, like this is my studio, like it's not a four-hire studio, and like so my friends can just use it whenever. And I was like, that's amazing. That's not why I was here, but like, let's do it. And so I actually this was 2019. I got my boss at the time, uh, was like a drummer, and uh, if you have you ever heard of Chris Whitley? He's a 90s, he was kind of in my understanding. I might be butchering this, but in my understanding, he was kind of a contemporary of like Jeff Buckley, Chris Isaac, but more bluesy. And so uh he he uh my my old boss Jerry was the drummer for uh for uh Chris Whitley. And so uh we had just been talking about like doing something together for you know, and but but it's work, so it's like, yeah, you know, maybe at some point, and we're busy all the time. And uh, and so I I asked him to play drums on it. I had a great buddy, uh, this guy Rob Sanchez, who's back in Austin now, and uh, and we went into the studio and just banged out bass and drums for for the four songs, and then I took some time, did all the guitars at home, like in the box in like native instruments, guitar rig, and uh say anything style. And uh, and then we uh we were able to record vocals at um the studio formerly known known as Sorcerer Sound, which like way back was like Bob Dylan's studio, and more recently uh was owned by Mark Ronson. They they recorded like parts of Tribe Called Quest albums there. They recorded like uh some Nora Jones stuff there, uh Whitehouse because of Ronson. Okay, and so like legendary studio, and uh my my buddy, so you um uh sharing a similar upbringing, I think you probably know who Five Iron Frenzy is.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Of course, yeah. How can you? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

So Five Iron's trombone player Dennis Culp is a work friend of mine, and that's he his company was running the studio, and so he also very uh very graciously uh offered up for for me and Maggie to come in and record vocals. And that's really cool. Uh so we we were able to record vocals there and not just be like, well, I have an SM57 at home. Uh there actually is uh a 57 uh vocal demo of Maggie's where I wasn't I had to go relieve the babysitter from her vocal session, and I didn't like what they did, and so I used the um I used the demo vocal and it sounds fantastic. I I love the way it sounds. It's not that it's like better, but it's just like it was exactly the down the line of what I wanted. And so uh, you know, technically, I I I'll I'll take uh like a one-eighth uh vocal production credit on that. Um but but yeah, so like we had some really amazing opportunities to to use some friends studios, and so um I got all that done end of 2019, going into 2020. I gave all I was working to like a mix down of the drums, so I didn't have all the mics stemmed out and everything. And so I uh I give all my stuff back to Francis and he's gonna mix it at his studio. And uh and COVID happens, and his studio was in this arts warehouse in Red Hook that got like completely shut down, unaccessible, like no one could even go in the building for months. Seriously? And so like the everything was just on hold. And so I had all this like energy and momentum, and yeah, uh, and like I even had a show booked for like no first or something. So we we were like a couple months out from like having to put a live band together and all this stuff, and um, and so I just started over from scratch with like new songs, did everything. Uh like I I used uh Propellerhead's mobile app and like got all the drum sounds I liked for it and and exported them, loaded them up into Logic, made my own little like drum machine options, yeah, and uh and made like a little DIY EP that came out back in 2021, um, and then like returned back to these, being like, okay, now for the real thing. And uh, and it took from like probably we moved back here in in 21 and I think started like putting a little bit more energy into it, and then we finally finished mixes at the end of like 2024, got it mastered in in you know, beginning of last year, and then I was like, all right, it's done. And then it hit me like a ton of bricks, like, oh, you have to have like album art and you have to have some sort of mind around like how to put it out and and like visuals, and it just went back burner for so long. And I kind of want to like stop using distro kids, so it's like I I want to find another distributor, and then it was like, I'm already paying Distro Kid because I put the 40s stuff, my old band that you recorded in college. Like, I I put that stuff up in 2020, uh, because that had never been on streamers, and so it's like I'm already paying for that, so like I can switch. It's it's like the roadblocks you give yourself when you're like, I have to really put thought and effort into it into something, so I'm gonna tell myself that like this part of it is what's stopping me, and um like you know, and especially in the last year where it was like fully done, and I could have put it out, I could have like slapped a single color cover on it and like called it a day. I joined, I started playing with Robert Gay, which I think I mentioned to you. Yeah, yeah. Um, I started playing bass for Robert, and then in talking about playing bass for Robert, I got a gig with some guys uh playing like soul jazz. Like they had this incredible like instrumental combo where I was like, Did I tell you that I like barely play bass? They're like, Yeah, just try it out. And um and so like really fun gig, like really stretching my limits and and like really working hard to like get up to snuff with these guys where I'm like the worst like player in the group by leaps and bounds. And um, and so like joined that band that plays like not often, it's not a huge lift, it's like every few months. And then also uh last fall joined the orchestra at the college nearby. And it it like it hit me that like it's it's like the old Twitter joke, the like men will literally uh blank blank blank instead of going to therapy. Oh, I will literally join two bands in an orchestra to to avoid putting my own music out.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Yep. Yep. Yep, and all you probably needed was literally an album art and like some plan of like whenever people, whenever you put it out, they'd be like, here's what this album is. Like it's not even like it's almost like I feel like with creative stuff, like the stuff that feels super simple, you make super complex. Like, what do you want the picture to be? And you're like, I don't, what is it, what are you, what does it say about that? I'm like, I can I just put something that says I'm proud of myself for making this and releasing it. Can that be the album art?

SPEAKER_03 53:46

I know, and it's it's so tough because you fall into the trap of like what being an artist is these days, which is such a visual medium and having to make content, and that's really where it was like, I'm what am I gonna make? Content about my music. Um well, another wrinkle that I I know we kind of like connected over uh over TikTok from my music account, but do you know about my other TikTok activity? No, I don't. So circa like 20 early 2022 when Wordle was blowing up, I started a Wordle account on TikTok just to be like, I don't know, I've heard you have to like niche down and only talk about one thing. And so I started this separate account to to talk about Wordle and it blew up immediately. Like as of like day one, I had 2,000 followers, and then I by like two weeks in I had 10,000 followers and was interviewed by the New Yorker, like blew the F up. And so I was literally making daily content for almost two years, but it was it was very formulaic. I was just on screen playing the game, and you know, it it was it was that formula, and um sticking to that formula is what made me stop like growing and made people stop caring, but the real fans stayed for me to get real weird with the formula, and it was like that's what I was here to do in the first place, was to like be weird and funny, and like I don't care that like Gen Z like wants me to like taste test sodas, like that's not what I'm doing. I'm playing WordPress, yeah, and it's like why are you playing Wordle and not like the new cool thing? It's like because I called the account Wordle tips, I'm here to do one thing and one thing only, and uh and so like that was that was like really going through the ringer of of seeing how social media works and how social media changes, and all the while like knowing what I knew about my corner of social media, then watching like what artists were trying to do. It's like I'm not doing that, I don't want to do that. Yeah, like there's I I I honestly like I I don't want it to sound like I would talk down to people who do that because I honestly like admire people who can go on and be like, this is what I was thinking about when I wrote this song. I was like, I'm allergic to talking like that. Yeah, yeah. I wish I could just be like, here's what I wrote this song about, but like I that makes me feel naked.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Yeah, also like it um I feel like Matt Baringer from the National has said before, like, but if I say that, then that's what you guys think this song is about. And then like that kind of ruin, not ruins, it taints the song. Like it then changes the song because like I also get very legalistic about like listening to songs. I'm like, no, he wrote this about this, and it's like, well, yeah, now you're only listening through through one lens and you've completely shut off the million like multiverses that could exist in the song because you listen to one interview that said, here's what the song is about. Right.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

And it also kind of keeps you from like rediscovering new meaning in your own music because that's a very real thing that happens over time, is you go like, oh, that wasn't even about that at the time, and now it means a whole different thing to me if I'm not so attached to what it literally was at the time. Like we we had a song on the last plot points EP called Sweat It Out that was like the one that I'm like the really the proudest of. I had a friend record drums in his house, so it wasn't like the dinky drum machine thing that I was doing for the rest of it. And it's like epic. I had uh, do you ever know Ben Kaufman in Nashville? Yeah. Yeah. So I had Ben do strings. I like arranged a string quartet, and Ben recorded the whole thing for me. And so that's the one that's like that's cool. That's that's the like, oh yeah, he grew up listening to Deathcab and Arcade Fire, kind of like long building thing that gets really epic. And um, that's like lyrically, that's a song that it like I knew at the time that it was about several different things, but it was interesting for like the couple people who paid close enough attention to be like, oh, is this about this? It's like, yeah. Partly, probably, it's like it's it's about wait, it's about having to wait for something. And uh, and there was a lot of that in 2020, 2021. So it was interesting to see people kind of discover that. And um, I don't know, anyway. So like just speaking of the content game, and so that was kind of keeping me from putting my absolute into it. And then uh the the producer Francis that I mentioned earlier, I I see him uh socially in like kind of work functions fairly often, and he kept on just being like, you gotta just do it. Like, yeah, don't don't worry about it too hard. Like, you don't, there's no perfect way, just like figure out some album art and do it. And so I had finally come around to like, okay, I don't have to find the perfect album art. It doesn't actually, I I had been kind of waiting on like we should do a photo shoot and figure out something from that. And then I was like, it doesn't have to be a photo, like we could do like a drawing, it could be this or this. And I had finally kind of had an idea that I liked, and we were on um our road trip to Nashville that I mentioned earlier, and um we literally on like day one of the trip had been like, oh, it would be so fun if uh Seiji and Nui like had a uh uh like a session open and we could like do photos with him, but like we didn't really pack clothes with that in mind. Also, I'm really in my head about if I pronounced his last name right. So uh I'd listen, I would destroy it. I don't think I've ever said it out loud. Um, and so uh so you know it we had literally said his name. Like that would be so cool because his photography is so amazing, and um, and like his eye, it's just like that's someone who you could just like trust their eye and just be like take some cool photos of us. And uh and so that night we're in our hotel in Virginia, and I'm just scrolling and I see Sae on his Instagram stories being like, Does anyone want to do a shoot in the next two days? What? Yeah, that's cool. Well, that seems like fate. And so we we got together with Saeji and just like um in Germantown, and and was just like, you know the spots, we don't know anything anymore. Just like tell us where to show up. We'll try to like dress cool and and we'll just figure it out. And uh, and we got some amazing photos from him, and that like finally kind of and and it took another nine months, but of course it finally got the gears turning to be like, all right, what's this gonna look like? And uh, and once once we picked uh you know cover photo, it was like, okay, like so we can pull colors out of this, and those could be like colors. That's where I really start like getting the ball rolling, is like if I have the framework to work within, then I can I can and I actually just finished a um uh like lyric video for one of the songs that I'm really excited about. Um it's uh it's a song called Plans, and it's the one that I mentioned earlier that I are waiting did I mention it or did I think about mentioning it? Who knows? Um I wrote I wrote the lyrics to this song for I I wrote it as a 40s song because we were gonna keep on playing after uh Chase Meisenheimer left uh because he graduated. We were gonna have Casey Weisbuck from the original Diarrhea Planet lineup um uh join on drums. We had him join for one show, but we never kept it going because we just got all got busy. But I was like, all right, well, then I'm gonna start writing more songs. And I had written this song the summer between my junior and senior year, where Maggie and I had just started dating, and we went from like, we're not defining this to like, okay, I think we're dating because we're gonna be apart for eight months, and uh, after like barely being together at all. And so it was like we have to jump into this. And I I wrote these lyrics uh just to be like, I'm thinking of this as a long-term thing, and uh I'm including you in that, and uh, you know, like seems kind of weird to do right now, but like that's that's where I'm at. And um, and so I've had those lyrics for 16 years, and then just in like kind of internal demos, just like turned it into a few different songs and finally landed on the one that we recorded. And um, and so I was thinking about like how can I like visualize this in a way that feels meaningful to the song? And I remembered that when she was on tour with Kinky Boots, we had uh she had a stop in Pittsburgh that I went out and visited her for. And in exploring Pittsburgh, they have the Andy Warhol Museum there. And in the section about his films, there's a camera setup where you they call it a screen test where you sit down in front of the camera and just sit there for like five minutes. And I don't know, it it's like a it's like a low frame rate. It like looks very old and it's black and white, and it's really cool. And I was like, oh, I wonder if I still have that downloaded somewhere. The link is active from 11 years ago. The link from the Warhol Museum is still active, and I downloaded it, and um, and I was like, oh, I could like take clips from this, and then I was like, wait, and I just kind of like took from the back and from the front and just put it together, top and bottom, because everything's vertical now, which is so amazing. And um, and so I just let the whole thing play because that's the Warhol film aesthetic, is just natural, no cuts. And uh, and so it's funny, speaking of like how songs might reveal themselves to you in time, it it made it revealed to me kind of like the timeline and the phases of our life where like that was such a culmination of the first phase of our life was her like chasing the theater dream and getting this national tour and like working at the peak level. And then the year after that, opening a Broadway show for the first time, and like you know, that and then it wasn't long after that that we got pregnant, and she kept on pursuing theater for years after that, but it was like it it really hit critical mass before we moved into this next section of our life. And uh in retrospect, what was that uh culmination now feels like a preamble for the phase sense or phase is sense, really. And so it's it's wild to me. It doesn't mean the same thing to anyone else watching, but in like editing this, I'm like this song about us like jumping in and committing really early on, being visualized by this like simultaneous peak and beginning all these years later, it's like everything kind of just collapsing in on itself, and it's that's cool. It's it's the kind of thing where like after spending so long being like, I can't make content, I'm like, I think I made some good content.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

That's cool. Yeah. It is the most obnoxious part of being a creative type, though, is the whole how do I train the algorithm to like me? How do I get a da-da, all that stuff? Because, like, yeah, it's like, here's how many videos you have to post today, here's how much you have to do this, and like at the end of the day, I know, at least for like this podcast, I'm like, if anyone finds this, I'm happy. So, like, uh but I'm also not here the same to be like, here's what I was thinking about behind the scenes whenever I was talking to Steven on this episode. Like, no one gives a shit. Like, no one's gonna care about it. But like that work. Yep, it is. And like honestly, but I also have that insecurity in me.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:57

Yeah, right. I'm not trying to revive. As a musician, like I don't want the viral audience's opinion about my music. No, no, not at all. No. That that kind of accidentally happened because my my wife posted this like reel where she just like did a trend. It was that simple plan, I'm just a kid trend from years ago, where it's like you recreate a picture uh from when you were younger. And we did that, like we were going out for our anniversary dinner, and it was like, oh wait, like before we leave, let's do this thing. And we shot this like five-second video, and um she spelled a word wrong in the caption on screen. Oh my god. And so people started commenting, and then it snowballed from there, and it was like millions and millions and millions of views and thousands of comments, all ragging on me like for being a man with long hair for, and I mean, my hair's long now, my hair was like long, yeah, yeah. And um, and so you had these weird, like uh I'll I'll call them international Catholics, where like English was clearly not their first language, and they had some really, really strict rules about how men should like I got that not only on just like myself and my appearance, but someone like went down in her feed and watched something where she had like posted a song from like the last plot points EP, and there was just this total stranger being like, This is absolute garbage music, and you should be ashamed. And I'm like, well, I don't want this person's opinion. But that's a good reminder that I really don't want that level of strangers' opinions about my music. Uh but you know, so I'm not trying to like go viral, I'm not trying to build a huge audience online, and so I don't have to have it all figured out in the right way, and you really can just put it out because it's about having a body of work and about having it accessible to people because like I I kind of get the reverse side of this, but the thing that makes me crazy is when I go to a band's Instagram and I can't listen to their music. Yeah, right. Yeah. Or see a live video. I take a live video easily when all I can do is is click on flyers for a band that's like really a band and that's their full-time thing and they're making a go of it. I'm like, I should be able, I shouldn't have to click through to your link tree to go pull up my stream service of choice to listen to your music. Cause like at a certain point, if you make it that hard for me, I'm not gonna do it out of principle. And and so I'm like, I want to have like I want to have the music out there, I want it to be accessible in like a meaningful way, in an easy way. Where it's like, I don't want to have like a thousand clips of the same song where you can't tell what the song actually is, because that's what works. It's especially on TikTok, more so than Instagram, where like your grid doesn't matter as much, and you just have to have you have to be constantly feeding stuff to the algorithm. It's like the thing that works is making a hundred to three hundred of the exact same video and just waiting for the algorithm to push it out to more people. And that's the last thing I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

I I think it feels like as if I'm in high school again, and I think I want to feel pretty to a bunch of people that don't even vaguely give a shit about me. Like walking up to the cool kid table, being like, Do you like my outfit today? And it's like they won't even remember your name, man. And even if they said yes, they don't mean it. So like it's I want people to be able to find the stuff I create, but also like it's a stupid game. And yeah, and I hate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

Yeah, I'm I'm kind of the same way where it's like I I uh I want to have like integrity in the things that I do, but I'd also so much rather appeal to the weirdest people in the weirdest way than like get the the approval of the table of cool kids. Like that's how I approached the like the wordle content stuff where I was like, I would so much rather alienate the wrong people than have the wrong people casually there. I I started streaming wordle games on TikTok uh because like for for a while there, that was really where the growth was was getting followers from live streams. And so for a long time, I for a long time I was just doing really normal live streams where I would like have the the like the audience vote on like which word we should guess next. And that really gets people going because it gets engagement, the algorithm pushes it to more people. So um what I learned was that if you play really bad, more people stop and watch. And so through a really weird uh chain of events, I started starting every uh game on my streams with horse, sorry, mommy, daddy, which is just a horribly uh inefficient way to uh too. It is, it's awful. And then and then so the the game was you start with horse, sorry, mommy, daddy. If you win, you go on to the next round, which is horse, horse, horse, horse. And then you have two choices to two chances to get it. And at any point, if you lose, you have to go on to you have to go back to the beginning. So it's horse, horse, horse, horse. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, etc. And um, and so people would stop in and be like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And have you ever played this game before? It's the I I called it the world's most unbeatable wordle strategy. And so it even has like a slightly weird way of describing it. And um, like no one says most unbeatable. And so the right people really took to this. And that's where I'm like, those are my people, those are the people I'm making stuff for. And uh and it's a very small group of people. It's not, it does not reflect the like 113,000 followers that I have. No, it reflects like the there's like a hundred people in my Discord, and maybe 20 of them are active. Those are the people.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

Those are the money. Yes. That's the target. That's why I feel like because I'll post like guitar videos from time to time, especially like buying a new uh Orange Amp and everything. And there's so many obscure songs to know how to play in guitar that I'm like, oh, everyone is familiar with Into the Fold by Christoph. Everyone's familiar with track nine on Happy Hollow, right? It's like Devin, you're you're gonna have three people that know whether this song even exists, if you can even play it correctly. Yeah. I also have that very weird part of me that's just like, no, no, no. I'm gonna play a good life song from an album from a band that no one knows exists besides like 20 people who lived in Omaha. And that's what that's that's the target market I'm going for. Yeah. And then I talk myself out of it and I don't do it. But then some part of me is like, but what if you do it? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. That's a that's not a part of my personality. I know if I want to feed every single day.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:37

Yes. I'm trying, you're gonna appreciate this. I'm trying to remember the name of the song so I don't get it wrong. I saw the the carousel tour, the um, the like Laura Jane Grace, Tim Casher. Yeah, yeah. Um maybe oh was Anthony Green. Tim played uh I really love Mama, I'm swollen. Like that that album is just yeah, like it's so great. I believe the song was the title track that he did, or maybe it was What Have I Done? Whatever. He did it at the show, and I was like, oh, this is this is gonna be the only time I ever hear this song live.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:15

Like on the vinyl, that page is written, like the lyrics are written on a paper plate. Oh back. That's and it is freaking awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:24

I have, I think I only the only cursive vinyl I have, as if I could actually see it from here, is uh is like the art is hard, the recluse uh picture day single. Yep. Got that at Grimes back in like 2008.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

I'm gonna say Sinners Serenade, umce, and uh Adapts might be the three other songs. I can't remember the name, but yes, Adapt. That is good. That is the B-side banger from that one. Yep. Yep, good one. Sinner's Serenade. Oh, sorry, this is a phenomenal side to it. Mike Mogus, the guy who produced that, had this really big thing with like Bride Eyes and Curse of where he did these really eerie piano parts, like in between songs, like in between Bowl of Oranges on I'm White Aware on Um Lifter, the Swords on the Ground, and Don't Know When Bidet is gonna come. There's like this just eerie, creepy as fuck, like piano part that's like very dissonant and everything. They do that a lot on like in between um Butcher, the song, and Gentleman Caller that kind of do this eerie piano part, and they also do that on Sinner's Serenade. He had this like year or two of just being like, I'm gonna make some really eerie piano tone. Yeah, I'm gonna fill this in beautifully.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:28

Yeah. Yeah, I I was never into cursive, and for whatever reason, on the day of my high school graduation, I went to Borders and I bought the ugly organ and the first Rage Against the Machine album. I had nothing to be angsty about. I was finished with high school. I was going to like the number one choice of college, and I was just like, I'm gonna get into cursive and rage.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:48

Yeah, yeah. Like the rec the recluse was my go-to um song to like test out a room. Because like the vocal blends in the recluse, there's like the high whispery part, there's the very mid-rangy part, like in the second verse, you got Jenny Lewis sing on on also, and like yeah, I think my dream podcast would be um, I listened to a lot of Vagrant albums. Vagrant was like, Get up kids, saves the day, all like Lawrence, Kansas, and like New Jersey for some reason. Um, Matt Pryor, whenever Vagrant reached 25 years, did one like did interviews with every single band and was like, all right, uh, I'm in the Get Up Kids, let's talk about the Get Up Kids, how we got started, let's talk to Save the Days, talk to Bayside, let's talk to the anniversary, let's talk to all these bands. If I could somehow commission Saddle Creek to let me do that for them, that would be the most deep dive, me being excited about life every single day, and then having a really big emotional drop-off whenever I was done with it, existence for me possible.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:42

Okay, I have a question for you. I've been I've been thinking about this a lot and have been meaning to like put it on Instagram, but it's just one of those like, God, this is such a dorky question. But do you have like an album where you don't like anything else from that band, but you love that album? Because you reminded me with Saves the Day. I love in Reverie, I don't like any other Saves the Day albums.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

Well, this guy in In Reverie is not a Saves the Day album. In Reverie. Um I would say the first one that comes to mind, and I think it's because of how much I emotionally connected to the album, is Set Yourself on Fire by Stars. Oh that album, I was obsessed with that album. And their other albums are good. Like they're bad. But like that album is such like a time and place for me where like I am obsessed with every single song and every decision they make on that album. Um, yeah, besides that, like uh, did you ever listen to The Promise Ring? I know I know who I've never really listened. Late 90s, early 2000s, emo indie rock bands, all like two or three of them reached this phase where like their third or fourth album, they didn't do a pop-punk album. And so everyone's Woodwater? Is that the name of the album? I love Woodwater. Woodwater is like my favorite album. It's perfect, it's great. Their other albums are great, they're fantastic. Yeah. But like Woodwater is like this emotional indie rock journey that I think is like beautiful and fantastic, and it's really big. Also, On a Wire by the Get Up Kids is my favorite album of theirs. In Reverie is a fantastic Save the Day album, but it's not like if you're listening to their entire discography, you're like, what is this album? Right. And it's like, well, they're getting in their like mid-20s and they're like, I don't want to, I want to I want to challenge myself. Right. So I'm gonna do something. And then like, I mean, Saves the Day after In Reverie did a threes album arc of like self-hatred and like despising himself. Like it's real, it gets real dark. Get up kids did one other album, then broke up for like a decade. I think Promise Ring broke up and then did like so like there's this thing in like the early aughts where like all these indie emo, whatever bands challenged themselves, and their fans were like, hell no. And they're just like, Well, we're not kids anymore. Everyone has their pinkerton. What we're doing. Everyone has their Pinkerton. Yeah. Do you know, did you know Ashley Byrd at Belmont?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:55

No, I didn't. The name sounds familiar. I was I was dating her roommate, and Ashley had a copy of In Reverie around the apartment, and I was like, ha ha, it would be funny to put this on. And then I like halfway through song one, I was like, I really like this.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:10

Yeah. The other day I thought about doing a because like the Orange Amp has like phenomenal like distortion built into and everything, about doing uh driving in the dark as like a random obscure TikTok video where I'm like, I think about five people will recognize this guitar intro, and I will be really happy playing it, and it's really simple and really fun. So now that just encourages me, if I have the energy in two hours from now to play to plug in an electric guitar and hope I'm not waking up the entire family to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

Risky. I I did the same thing a while back. Uh I think I posted it on the plot points TikTok and definitely the Instagram, where I realized that you could sing the lyrics of um uh the MXPX song that's not chick magnet. The biggest MXPX song. Like Punk Ruck Show, or like I'm going through the lyrics. I'm like, it's it's in the first line. Um uh to the accompaniment of uh the uh color spider, color spider songs from from uh what whatever yellow, yellow spider, orange spider, or whatever. And so it's like we ain't got no place to go. So let's go to the punk rock show. And it was just like, I think in the caption, I was like, if this registers for you, we're uh you're my people. Like this is not for every people, but it's it's for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

That's it. That's awesome. I think uh what is that on Taylor Swift's new album? Um Honestly Romantic is like the same chord progression as Where is My Mind or Teenage Dirtbag by Wheatus? And it's impot once you hear it once you realize it's like the exact same. Yep. Yeah. And then you're just like you hear it and you're like, can't unhear this. Yep. Okay, no way. Here we go. No way. Okay. I'm gonna wrap up. Yeah. That way I can actually. So Heather is in like, where are you? Um okay. So how I end every episode is ask every guest a series of five questions. Um, first question is Did you have any backup names for your kid? Like, do you have anything that you almost named him?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:10

So we had our boy name locked from like when we first ever talked about having children because our dad's first names are both Thomas. And so it was like that's it. Like, there's no way around that if it's a boy. We had talked about Lucy. Um, my my wife's mom's name is was Lucinda. And so uh she went by Cindy. So it was like, oh, it'd be fun to like do Lucinda, but then call her Lucy. Um, and so with that was kind of our our closest thing. Uh, and then we found out we were having a boy and we were like, all right, it's locked in. No need to deliberate.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Made it very easy. That does. Um, next question Who's your favorite TV or movie dad? Or like what comes to mind first? So you can do that also if the word favorite trips you up a bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:56

Okay, so I I did my homework and I I was familiar with this question, and I don't think I have like an answer that I love, but you know, no, let let me rephrase that. Um because you want to find like the the perfect movie dad, but it's you know it's the imperfect dad's podcast after all. Um and it is Sandy Cohen from the OC. Because I'm like, that's a that's a flawed man, but it's like, but that's my dad. Like, that's my TV dad. He is he like when when Maggie was watching um that musical show, um Zoe's Infinite Playlist. Oh, Zoe's Infinite Playlist, yeah. He was the he was her dad on that show and he was dying. And I was like, respectfully, I can't be in the same room. I've already lost one father in my real life. I can't lose Sandy Cohen in a different TV show.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:59

Have you tried therapy yet? Just as a suggestion.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:02

Yes. I I'm actively in the process of getting back into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:07

That's good. That's good. Yes, that's good. That's awesome. I don't think I've ever felt that deep of a connection to a TV character, but I could see that just being like, not today. Like I can't, like, come on. Like, I'm still grieving the real dad. So let's just not let's not add something else to this list. Yeah. For sure. Um next question What's your replacement curse word? What do you say whenever like you need to curse, but you don't know what's, but you don't want your son to repeat it later?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:32

I uh this is the one that I'm truly at a loss for because I don't I I I like I always kind of was good with saying like dang when I needed to. Uh but I like it it slips out if I'm like really upset. Um but yeah, I don't I don't think I like my dad was like a dog gauntlet guy. Dog gaunt. I had a lot of dog gauntnet growing up. I don't I don't think I have like a dog gauntnet. Um, but I I'm I'm usually pretty good about uh about like a reasonable censor of like a dang or like you're ticking me off, you know. I'm I might go there. I try to find a way around it because you know we're also so actively in that third grade boy conversation of like be more creative with your language. Like he's really discovered cursor. I was his age when South Park came out, and like I wasn't supposed to watch it, but I watched it and like it was in the water and it was lazy and it still is lazy, and I'm guilty of it all the time. Uh, but I don't I try not to do it in front of him so I can have some leg to stand on to be like, hey, don't talk like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:46

That's true. That's true. Yeah, that's why you don't curse. It's not because you want to be a better person. It's like, no, no, no, whenever he curses later, and he's like, but you say those words, and then I can be like, like hell I do. Damn it, I said I know, I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:58

And it's also like I I I really want him to learn like to know your audience. Yeah. Because I I want to be a safe enough space that like I'm not gonna fly off the handle if he uses the language that he's been using. But like we'll go to visit my father-in-law, or like my mom will come to to spend time with him, and we'll be like, hey, like cool it with the language because like yeah, we're trying to teach you life skills, but they get offended. Like that's honestly like for real offensive to them. We just like don't want you talking like that. For for the older people in your life, that's like legitimately upsetting to them. So just like it hurts them. Watch yourself around them because you just have to know who you're talking to. Like with your friends, like try to keep it clean, but like, you know, you're with your friends. Yeah. And it's so like I I think knowing your audience is is the lesson to teach.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:57

Yep, and not overreacting, because it is real, like my parents didn't overreact that much, or like have big reactions, I mean. But like, yeah, I think we all know people who's parents were like, if you drop the F like, I had friends, parents who were like, if you said the word sucks, they're like, Well, I don't know if I want you round this house, and you're like, Well, that sucks. I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:14

I know. So Yeah, you don't want to be the like the S word is stupid uh family.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:20

Like you don't want to, you don't want to overcorrect too much. You don't. And it's yeah, it's teaching your kid, like, all right, could like uh my son, yeah, once again almost five, said the F word the other day, and I was like, Oh, do you know what that word is? And he was like, I don't know. And I was like, that's actually the F word. So whenever you say that, like you'll get in trouble. If you say that at school, you'll especially get in trouble. And like, there's no time in which you say that in which you won't get in trouble. And it's like, oh, okay. But like it wasn't like, where did you learn that? Oh, it's just like it's just like, oh, you said a word, and like now's the moment to teach you the power of this word, right? Or the consequences of this word so that you know what you're doing later. Because if I just scream at you, then you're just gonna say it the second I leave the room. Yeah. And be like, this word has as much power? Cool. Yeah. I'm gonna say it more now.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:03

Yeah. I have I have a friend who I like, I I don't think I would do this myself, but I respect the reason that she does it. Like with her daughter in Brooklyn, she's like, I want my daughter to be like as foul-mouthed as she needs to be, because if she's at the playground and some creep comes up to her, I want her to be the first one to yell, get the fuck away from me.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:27

And I'm like, And you know what? Having girls pay attention. Yep. And you know what? If I saw a six or seven-year-old girl, actually any age girl, scream at a man, get the fuck away from me, I'd be like, Oh, I need to get involved. I know. I need to help. Like that kid is screaming. That kid is not just screaming, get away from me, they're screaming, someone help me at the same time. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay, next question. What's like favorite activity or toy to play with your son? Clearly, not baseball games. It is not baseball games. Uh, we watch a lot of movies.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:57

Uh where he's he's really into movies. I have friends, you know, even at like, you know, their kids being eight years old, are like, oh, you can't sit through a whole Harry Potter movie. I'm like, Yeah, two and a half hours?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:08

That's nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:08

Yeah. Uh and like he's he's been that since he locked in with movies. Like he he has unlimited attention span. Um that's cool. We just went and saw Mandalorian and Grogu in the theater and just had a blast. Yeah. It was so much fun. That's cool. And uh that's cool. Yeah, we uh I I spend like a ton of time with him. So we we do we do a lot. He's been actually getting into trying to like get better at basketball. So we've been going to the uh going to the playground and and playing some basketball, which has been really fun. Uh and we go swimming a ton. We actually have a pool at our building, uh which is like why part of why we moved to this building. And um, and so we uh we we swim a lot. Um I I can't like keep up with the visual art stuff. So whenever he wants to draw, I'm like, you do that. Um Happy with my drawings. No, you aren't. Yes. Yeah. That's I'm too. So like my wife does the visual side of things with him. She's very uh talented in that department. But yeah, like we uh you know, especially in the summer, we do a lot of swimming together. Um lots of uh lots of of movies. That I I I guess that's probably the thing is like watching movies together. That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:25

Yeah, nice. And then last question is what's your least since I actually ties with that a little bit, what's your least favorite kid show or movie? Like if your son wants to watch, is there anything where like this is trash, this is garbage? You can do a song also if that helps out. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:43

Well, I don't have a specific song, but I did have to warn warn someone recently. Do you know the band Charlie Bliss? No, I don't. You should. They're the greatest. Okay. Um they're like one of the great, uh, you know, more recent New York indie rock bands. Okay. And um, and so I got to know some of them uh through just like work stuff, and uh their drummer Sam has we've done quite a bit of work together for um like composition stuff when I was at my old agency job. All that to say, they did a uh for their last album press cycle, they did like one of those pitchfork under over things. And I I think uh that was where uh Imagined Dragons came up, and they were all like dogging on Imagined Dragons. And I texted Sam and I was like, hey, here's the thing about Imagine Dragons. You will do everything you can to keep Imagined Dragons away from your children, and then once they're old enough, their school gym teacher will play every Imagine Dragons song for them, and you will have failed at your attempt to keep Imagine Dragons out of their life, and it's it's universal. I just found out that one of the songs that my son has been singing for years is an Imagine Dragon song that I didn't even know. Makes me crazy. Uh anyway, that's not my answer. That's true. Um, because my answer is uh is the descendants and zombies and any of that like Disney Channel aesthetic stuff because somewhere I I guess the answer is high school musical. Like high school musical was like the fulcrum point for the Disney Channel, where like they went from making movies and shows to making Disney Channel movies and shows. Like the look changed on a dime. And I like I can kind of like ironically watch high school musical and be fine, but like zombies and descendants, where I'm like, if you really must watch this, I will leave the room. Yeah, it's it's an aesthetic thing, like the performers are all great, whatever, but like any any movie that looks like that, any show that looks like that, even like The Loudhouse, which is a Nickelodeon show, like the whole the whole vibe is off. And I think he I think he's kind of come around to what I'm saying about that because he's like, Well, why don't you like it? And I'm like, I don't know how to explain it. It's just off uncomfortable. Yeah, and like my niece really loves descendants and zombies, so I tried not to like bug on it in front of her, but I'll just kind of leave the room if she wants to put it on.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:26

Yep. I can't do it. I have two daughters, I have a 10-year-old and eight-year-old daughter. So, like, no man, we I've listened through zombies four, three, and two today so far. And the new descendants movie comes out on July 17th. So, no, trust me, I you're deep in summer, huh? No, I don't. It's yeah, no, and it's also like, yeah, then you have the moment where you're like, do I want to listen to this? No. But like, or like I think like I'm trying to do like like driving the car, I'm like doing finger snaps on the snare hit just to do something to make to try to like or like doing like on like for the snare hits, just to do something to get me out of the mindset of like I would never listen to this music. Yeah, but it makes my kids happy and they know every word. Yeah, someone's gonna shut up.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:05

I'm I'm a little desensitized with music, having worked in advertising and having to listen to like the same six to thirty seconds of a song over and over and over and over all day. And so like I can listen to any music ad nauseum and just be like totally unfazed. But uh, but yeah, it's it's the it's that Disney Channel aesthetic that does it to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:28

It's so bad. It's so it's so hard and like it's um yeah, it's just and also like I'm sure they have the same music director who does like the exact same. Because then I'm like, wait, this is basic this zombie song is basically that descendant song. Like it's not like you guys just barely vary, like it's the exact same song. Then I'm like, well, now I don't want like yeah, then I'm being a real jerk. I'm like, it's the same key. This is lazy. And I'm like, shut up.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:52

And then you'd have to take that same uh that same reasoning to John Williams uh sharing cues between Attack of the Clones and uh I think Chamber of Secrets. Oh yeah, that's true. There's a there's a shared score cue in there. That's true. I I I don't go public with my uh deepest, darkest thoughts about John Williams.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:12

I think he's that'll that'll all be edited out. That way you don't have the that I'll just post that as a clip. Yeah, and that'll get all that's the engagement I'm desperate for on this episode. Well, that's that's the nicer side of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:23

I you know he's he's one of the greats, but yeah, you know, later period, you write some stuff on a napkin, you walk away, and your your team makes it for you. And you're done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:34

And you're done. Okay, last thing for you moment for self-promotion. So if you want to follow like your band, follow your Instagram, follow your TikTok Wordle account, apparently. I really find it.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:42

I very rarely ever post to that anymore. Um, but you know, you can look up Wordle tips if you want to. I don't have my phone on me. Uh I I was trying to make sure I had the right uh accounts. But um, yeah, it's uh I should check this.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:58

I should also link it and everything, like on socials and all that.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:03

Oh good. I'm signed into Instagram, so I can I can uh fact chat my fact check myself. Um it's plot.points on Instagram and then on TikTok. Ooh, synergy. It's the same on both. It's plot.points on Instagram and Twitter at plot.points. Um and yeah, new music is coming out June 16th because new music Tuesday is the truth. I will never accept new music Friday.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:35

It's always music in my heart. That's right. Same, same here. And thanks for doing a call. Thanks for reconnecting a bit. And this was fun. I know we went long, so thanks for your time. You're good. You're good. I really I really do appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thanks for talking to me. Thanks for catching up. I appreciate it. And I'll go with the next time. Uh the basketball game. Yeah. Ooh, Nick's down by five. Seven. Yeah, they're down by five. They're down by five. There's still time. They got Brunson. They can do this. So stressful. I'll watch it. All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:03

I had a box of peanut MMs that I just destroyed in my hand at the end of game two. I was just stress eating sugar and squeezing cardboard.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:12

My my heart rate like triples. Like I'm normally my wrestling heart rate is like 60 during games like that. I'm like 140 the entire time. Insane. Insane. All right. All right. Have a good time. Stephen. Appreciate it, Steven. You too. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. Make sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at the Imperfect Dads Podcast. And make sure to give us five stars wherever you listen to us. Music, editing, and production is all done by me. Make sure to tune in on Mondays and most Thursdays for an episodes. This podcast is part of the Never at Phase Network. Make sure to go to NeverAffaceNetwork.com to learn more about it.