Anna Chan 0:00
I went on a trip with my boss. He revealed the reason why I was chosen was because I am a woman, and I am Asian who brings credibility to the position which oversees the Asia Pacific region. There were a few women back then who were perceived to be more perceptive and people-oriented and had the more technical search and digital skillsets back in 2006. This is where I realized that being a woman is no way a barrier to opportunities.
Elice Lau 0:38
When I joined AikeAudience years back, I was basically the only female other than my secretary. And as of today, after a few years, we have a good balance of splits among our team, with about around 47% of us being female, with a team mix of over five ethnic origins. So being a startup, we have to always test, learn, and fail really fast, and a team with diversity, I think always offer us new perspectives.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 1:17
Welcome to episode four of AlikeAudience's AdTech podcast where we discuss the latest ad tech trends and industry insights in a series of interviews with industry leaders. I'm Jessica, the Director of the brand Creatives, a boutique agency for tech companies, and I'm hosting the podcast today. So today's topic is one of my favorites, woman leadership. This is especially relevant in the male-dominated ad tech industry, which really suffers from a lack of diversity and we've International Women's Day coming up. I think it's an excellent time to hear from high-powered women in this industry. So we've invited Anna Chan, the CEO of the Media Line of Business at Dentsu International, Hong Kong. And she's an accomplished life coach. And we also have Elice Lau with us. She's the Chief Strategy Officer of AlikeAudience, and she has a decade of experience in MarTech and founder of several successful startups. So let's start from the beginning. You're both very high caliber women in high-powered digital media industries. How did you two get to where you are?
Anna Chan 2:22
Well, I came from quite a culturally diverse background. I was born in Shanghai, my grandfather was from Taiwan. My mom is Indonesian Chinese. So I was not coming from a media agency but started my digital advertising career with Yahoo! My moment came when I met my future boss, who was working in the same building, and a business partner at that time. So humorously, he approached me and asked, if I had a twin sister, who might be interested to take a regional role in IPG media brands, as head of search for APAC. I will say, I don't have a twin sister, but I might be interested. Since then, I've been very much indulged in the media and advertising field. Alongside my main career, I have taken a 18 month break in between to learn something that I like, such as personal trainer and coaching. I will say, being a life coach has changed my life. I always tell my coachees that I'm the one who benefits most from the coaching sessions. One of my favorite coaching memories was that I had a coaching session with a working mom. She was very emotional during the session, she insisted to carry on the session. So after it's done, I asked her why she was so touched this time. She said to me, actually, I started crying because of you. And so I can feel the empathy that you have for me. You made me realize that I do have the strength and ability to do what I want to do. With the coaching work I do, I was selected as one of the winners for the influencer awards in 2020 by Hong Kong Living and up till today, I still do coaching for NGO, and university students.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 4:25
Wow, that's a really touching thing to say. And what about you Elice?
Elice Lau 4:32
Hi, everybody. I'm a serial entrepreneur and had my first startup running back in a decade ago, 2012. And before then, I had the focused knowledge of running businesses through starting my career working as a management trainee in a listed company to an international firm with 5000 staff globally and thereafter, a 20 people startup with over five ethnicities. Some of my key accomplishments in my career including taking companies global, strategic business growth from China and now to the US and APAC, and team expansion. One of the metrics that I'm most happy about during this decade is 100%, staff retention rate within their first 12 months of employment and throughout. I had also the luck and luxury to take 24 months of sabbatical year off during my past decade. I spent mainly my time in a forest in Myanmar, and focus on mindfulness, or you call it meditation practice for a few 1000 hours, where I got more insights for life and more about the meaning and purposes for life. Some fun facts about me, I'm a vegetarian, I'm an image consultant. I'm also a face yoga teacher, and I'm very active in a volleyball court.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 5:56
Wow, that's interesting, a few 1000 hours. So obviously, both of you have had very long and successful careers. And what are some of the challenges that you would say you face, especially in an industry, which is very male-dominated?
Anna Chan 6:16
Work-wise, I personally don't find it challenging as a woman day to day. I considered my ability quite equally measured up. And I have my advantages while being trilingual and all-embracing due to my cultural background. Maybe the most obvious times when you realize, oh, I'm actually the only woman in the room were those industry tech events, especially in the old days. However, it was quite delightful to witness a transformation since I would say 2012-13, where I have had women panelists chatting all along with me.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 6:58
I love that, I know. And what about you Elice, do you find that similar to your experience?
Elice Lau 7:06
When I first had my own chair as a chairman, I was very young, actually in my 20s. So it's very uncommon for me to attend an event where I was one of the very handful of women out of 100 participants. And fast forward 10 years now, I noticed there is a very commonly described syndrome, especially in this day, it's called imposter syndrome, is actually a psychological pattern that causes people to doubt about their success. It's also an internal experience of believing that one being not as competent as others perceive. And this syndrome has proven to be more prone to happen on women than men. So this mentality could be also an hindrance for me as a woman, and also for other women executives to play well in our role. I have been fortunate enough to have many, many mentors in my career, who give advice for me, from time to time, especially when I face a situation where they have faced, failed, and they wish me to succeed. I must be thankful to all of them, who ain't embarrassed to share the vulnerable parts of them, could be very, very candid, of you know, how they failed and advise wholeheartedly. How can I best possibly afford the same failure again, and I figure through all over a decade now, this is a very, very beautiful relationships, I still talk to them during Covid, they still share what's going on with them in the rest of the world. And I do wish I can contribute the same to the next generations if possible, to other growing leaders the same way.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 8:55
Well, that's really beautiful. And I love both your different perspectives about working in the ad tech industry, and also the media industry. So, what are some highlights throughout your career? Or are there any stories you'd like to share?
Anna Chan 9:11
Sure. So after taking the job in IPG media brands, I went on a trip with my boss. He revealed the reason why I was chosen was because I am a woman, and I am Asian who brings credibility to the position which oversees the Asia Pacific region. There were a few women back then who were perceived to be more perceptive and people-oriented and had the more technical search and digital skillsets back in 2006. This is where I realized that being a woman is no way a barrier to opportunities, but rather perceived me for what I do or have done and I am not defined by my gender.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 10:03
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that, Anna. And what about you, Elice? I know that you led many successful startups, I'm sure it was quite an incredible experience.
Elice Lau 10:15
Well, I always joked about with my friends that the stories that have been happening in startups are very, very abundant enough for me to write a book. And let me just share one of the recent ones. Actually back when I first started my career as a leader, I had always been the minority in the company, meaning yeah, I was one of the women, but maybe the only one. And that's when I got heavily being influenced by how a male leader is like, and over time, some leadership elements of me, were actually like a man, I figured, except that I'm wearing maybe a dress. And my partners joked about, I speak like a man at times as well and, and make decisions like a man as well. And I would have to say that at the beginning of this year, is a beautiful beginning for me and my company. In January, I had the opportunity to show the Yin side of me. And during our kickoff meeting, I was invited to lead my team for one hour meditation workshop. And that was actually for me a very 60 minutes when I was utterly comfortable under my own skin, from outside in and inside out. I guided each section with the only good intention, radiating kindness to everyone. And I could observe also that each colleague's well-being condition being good or not. And I'm able to give them advice on well-being. And kind of like a pocket user guide that they can use from time to time to take care of their inner self whenever they need. Yeah, so that's part of other small stories that I would like to share, especially for recent ones.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 12:00
Yeah, I really enjoy hearing both of your perspectives. So it seems like Anna you're very confident on the skills that women have and then Elice, you have a slightly more aggressive approach, but then also be able to balance that with mindfulness practice. So what about like getting to where you are. So both of you obviously lead a lot of people in the industry and in your company. What are some insights you have on a successful career?
Anna Chan 12:36
My thought is, always be passionate, work hard, and have a clear fall. Passion will keep you going. You just need to trust the process. If you have a clear goal and work hard, you will regret nothing. Do not be disheartened if you do not see success at first. My moto in life, 天時地利人和, you need the right timing, right place and social connections for something to happen.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 13:13
I love that Chinese saying and yes, conditions are really important. What about you, Elice?
Elice Lau 13:21
First of all, especially when we are so locked down now and being at home very often. Staying in touch with the world would be one of the insights. I've read some articles from New York Times lately, where there is a research about women actually who take a year away from work can have earnings of as less as 39% lower than that of their counterparts who don't. So even if we are on a life-changing stage, even if we're facing difficult and challenging times, just keep reminding ourselves that there are actually other parts of our lives, which were of our brilliant contribution. And second, be firm but not blunt. This is an answer actually for my meditation master when he got asked, what's the way to give feedback to anyone who you don't agree with, especially when we noticed we have some emotions. And the answer being be firm, but not blunt is a wisdom that helps me a lot, not only in work, but in many other situations. Just imagine when the food is wrong, when a taxi driver is angry, any situations. Just give it a pause for a second. Take a deep breath and share your feedback firmly. Try this to anyone even to your colleagues and your family. It really works and it's really majestic as well, believe me.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 14:52
Thank you for sharing that. So, because of International Women's Day coming up, I would like to circle back to that. Even though we've achieved a lot of success, there's a lot of women who are still held back, like you said, if they if women take time off, they make less money. So what are your thoughts on having women in more leadership roles and having more authority in the media industry?
Anna Chan 15:20
I would like to rephrase the question. It's not simply having more women in leadership roles, but a more diverse leadership team to service the industry. So women shouldn't be just stereotyped to bring certain contributions, but more so socially, representing a voice among our, you know, now growingly diversified and socially upright communities, especially in the MarTech and ad tech industry, where we claim ourselves to be always ahead of the trends and be ready to innovate and change. So at Dentsu, my current company understood the need to impose such changes. So we have two female CEOs of one being myself to spearhead a company with over 60% female employees. We push forward various social campaigns such as helping Rainlily, which is a local nonprofit organization to rally mass support in combating women's sexual violence, a pressing social problem unspoken and unseen publicly. All in all, we are not simply like bluffing about how feministic we are, or but really trying to prove a point that we are now so socially and culturally conscious to providing equal chances to everyone prioritizing attitude, skills, abilities as our number one benchmark, when it comes to talents.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 17:10
I really love how you frame it, like instead of having more women in leadership roles, having more diverse leadership on the team. And I think that's an amazing achievement having 60% female employees and two female CEOs. So what about you, Elice? What are your thoughts on this topic?
Elice Lau 17:29
Well, as a Chinese and a believer of mindfulness practice, where the middle way is the essence of the philosophy. So any place with a balance of Yin and Yang is always in the best harmony, right? And to echo what Anna just mentioned, as well, I think it's not only applicable to our industry to have more women, but more diversity in our team is the key. So when I joined AlikeAudience years back, I was basically the only female other than my secretary. And as of today, after a few years, we have a good balance of splits among our team, with about around 47% of us being female, and with a team mix of over five ethnic origins. So being a startup, we have to always test, learn and fail really fast. And a team with diversity, I think, always offer us new perspectives, and abling us to fill our blind spots. And more importantly, we are trained to have more endurance and able to embrace unforeseeable conditions, as we face a team with different cultural backgrounds from day to day. I think is a very good harmony for us to keep our diversity and also a mix of Yin and Yang in our team, and I hope this could be seen in more and more ad tech and market companies in the future.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 18:58
That's really good perspectives. So in light of International Women's Day, what advice would you have for other women?
Anna Chan 19:08
March 8 is International Women's Day. As a working woman who is always learning in this ever-changing era, my advice to women out there is simple. Love yourself first before loving others. If you can love yourself, you can empower yourself to overcoming anything and embrace whatever challenges and opportunities the world provides. And let me wrap up with one of my favorite quotes from Audrey Hepburn. What she said back then was nothing is impossible. The word itself says yes I'm possible.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 19:50
Amazing. So what about you Elice, what advice would you have for other woman while in their careers?
Elice Lau 20:00
Yeah, thanks. And thanks Anna for that beautiful sharing. I like that quote very much as well. So I'll use acronym ABC. And A stands for accept who you are. And we're all awesome our way. And as Anna just said, we should always love ourselves first before we can radiate our love to the others. And why don't we just talk to ourselves every day that I'm wonderful in the mirror every day, just accept whatever we are, whoever we are. And B stands for be bold. Ask ourselves, am I going to regret tomorrow, if I'm not going to do something or make that decision. Just make a decision that we will never regret because we only live our life once. And C stands for connecting the dots and treasure the dots we have. I used to think that the dots that I had were not being able to connect. But every dot we pin today will become very, very valuable anytime and soon. So I'm sure many, many brilliant women out there today, we share many more beautiful stories with us on International Women's Day. I wish all of us a wonderful day and continue to shine and glow our way.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 21:21
Thank you, Elice. And I just have a bonus question here because so much about self-love and self-acceptance and mindfulness. So I really would like to know as well in such a hectic world where women balance so many responsibilities, what are some ways we can practice self-care?
Anna Chan 21:43
For me, I learned a lot from coaching actually. During the coaching sessions, I realized that many of the coaches out there may be men or women, I found them sometimes they just like, pick themselves up all the time, having very, very high expectation and to a point where they feel sometimes not being accomplishing or not being able to accomplish anything. So I think, again, I mentioned earlier, you need to really love yourself before you can really try to love others. Another thing Elice mentioned, in which I also have a similar practice is meditation. So I meditate every day in the morning before I actually go to work. And I think that really helps me, you know, have a clarity in mind, and also be able to focus during the day. And I think that also boost my memory, especially in this evolving world. So I think definitely, meditation coupled with what I said, love yourself. Plus, for me, I also exercise in the morning. So I think these are like three combo, that worked really well for me.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 23:13
Amazing. So you would say meditation, exercise and what was the last one? Love yourself?
Anna Chan 23:21
Love yourself.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 23:22
And how do you find that same work or we have another set of practices that you'd like to add?
Elice Lau 23:31
Well, to me, I would say, if it's practice that we do every day, then something has to be very sustainable. I would say just having some me time. Yeah, just remind ourselves to have some me time. And that me time could be as short as five minutes. And I tried to build up this behavior. And I allow myself to do anything I like during that five minutes. It could be just reading a very short article for five minutes. It could be also doing face yoga and look at the mirror and tell ourselves I look brilliant today for five minutes. It can be just a short walk around, it can be just a call to your family and friends in a whatsapp call. We can play switch. You know I have a friend connecting the switch from Hong Kong to Tokyo and play with their friends every day for a while. So just anything that what intuition brings you to for that five minutes, and allow yourself to just recharge whenever you need. And the key is that while we do it every day, we would realize that this habit will form and we realize that the recharge is good enough for us to be able to perform for the rest of the day and be able to focus. Yeah, so me time. That's very important to me. And I hope this is useful to other women as well.
Jessica Lam Hill Young 25:06
Yes, it's, it's almost like hitting a reset button so that we can recharge our batteries. Thank you so much, Anna and Elice for these very inspiring insights. We'll conclude here and thank you for listening in. For more podcast episodes from AlikeAudience, hit the subscribe button. And don't forget to leave us a review and tag us on social. Transcripts will be on our website’s podcast page. And for more information about AlikeAudience, you can visit us at www.alikeaudience.com. Thank you!