In this episode I chat with my long term colleague and friend Richard Moat, the Functional Thinking Psychologist. Rich has helped myself and my colleagues on numerous occasions to overcome difficulties in the clinician/patient relationship. During the podcast Richard and I spend time discussing these relationships and how destructive habits can interfere with our long term health gains.
Most of us are at some point in our lives guilty of sabotaging our health by continuing to hold on to bad habits. Why do we do this though? Well, if you want to understand the complexities behind this behaviour then I urge you to take a listen to this podcast episode and hear Rich break it down and explain it in a way that we can all understand and relate to.
Whether you are a patient and especially if you are a practitioner, I guarantee you will benefit from listening to this insightful conversation with Rich.
Are you looking to improve your overall health for the long term? Head over to our website to find out how we can help!
Follow us on Instagram: @fmedassociates
To be the first to hear our next podcast episodes, sign up to our newsletter.
Thanks for listening to our podcast and please feel free to get in touch:
We would love to hear from you!
In this episode I chat with my long term colleague and friend Richard Moat, the Functional Thinking Psychologist. Rich has helped myself and my colleagues on numerous occasions to overcome difficulties in the clinician/patient relationship. During the podcast Richard and I spend time discussing these relationships and how destructive habits can interfere with our long term health gains.
Most of us are at some point in our lives guilty of sabotaging our health by continuing to hold on to bad habits. Why do we do this though? Well, if you want to understand the complexities behind this behaviour then I urge you to take a listen to this podcast episode and hear Rich break it down and explain it in a way that we can all understand and relate to.
Whether you are a patient and especially if you are a practitioner, I guarantee you will benefit from listening to this insightful conversation with Rich.
Are you looking to improve your overall health for the long term? Head over to our website to find out how we can help!
Follow us on Instagram: @fmedassociates
To be the first to hear our next podcast episodes, sign up to our newsletter.
Thanks for listening to our podcast and please feel free to get in touch:
We would love to hear from you!
Welcome to functional medicine, the podcast.
Peter Williams:Welcome to a new podcast of Functional Medicine bite sized. And as you say, I think you know the drill by now is that I go and interview many experts around the world with regards to health, with regards to functional medicine. But more importantly, ones that I have worked with, had long term working relationships with, and no more so than today. This is an interview where I'm going to interview probably one of my longest standing, I'd say mates now as well, as well as a as a work colleague, Richard Moat. And Rich, I like to call you the System's Thinking Psychologist I think is the name that we're, we're going to give to you. And so morning Rich, how you doing?
Richard Moat:Morning, Pete? I'm very good. Thank you. And look, I'll be guided by you on whatever label you're going to give me.
Peter Williams:Okay, well, and there's plenty of labels that I do give you that I'd never say on a podcast. But But yeah, so let me give you a bit of a background to Rich because as you say, we call him the functional thinking psychologist or the system's thinking psychologist and I met Rich over 20 years ago now, who was introduced to us by some, it's a long story. But some bloke I actually met when I was on holiday with my best mate, and we got chatting and he said, oh, you should go and see this guy, Rich. And so and so we did, and sort of 25 year history. But Rich is really quite important, not just for me, but for Functional Medicine Associates, because what he's been able to do for us really over the last couple of decades, and particularly for me, is be able to get me to understand who I am, what am I about? And where do I sit in the world? And how do I view the world? And importantly, how do people potentially view me which has just been so incredibly valuable for me personally. What Richard has also done particularly with the associates team, is he's been able to get us to all understand who we are, what we're about how we interact and how we get the best out of each other. But most importantly, and I think this is really key for Functional Medicine and sort of functional medicine practitioners and practice is that I mean, we've got a very experienced team, we've been doing functional medicine for quite a long time. So So with a lot of the testing and new ways that we look at people, I think we're quite good at that. I mean look, you're always learning, there's always more that you could learn, but our biggest struggles with patients come with when we have this sort of inability to, to it to attach to the patient to be able to draw the best out of the patient to be able to understand the patient in a way that means we're going to be able to run a successful strategy over time, because the difficulty is is that no, it's not so much understanding what's wrong with the patient, I think we're quite good at getting to that point. But it's being able to layer that programme in a way that allows you to keep hold of your patient and get them to run down this pathway because there is a pathway and it's going to take a bit of time to get them better. And for some people, we're on them for 18 months to two years. So I think the success of functional medicine is be able to understand the patient, not the disease that the patient has. And that can be really quite tricky. And we use Rich when we have problems with with certain patients through no fault of their own. But you inherently get this feeling that this strategy with this patient isn't running so well. Because maybe, you know, I'm not getting the best understanding from them. And this is where Rich has been incredible to actually try and help us sort of appreciate how we do this and what strategies we use. So he is just, as I said to you, I keep going on but he's just pretty incredible at helping us to do this. And it's been incredibly helpful for the practice. So Rich, I think the key on this, this is not I don't think this is a podcast just for the person in the street. I actually think this is a podcast for practitioners in health because again, as you say, I think there is so much in this there's so much nuance with with understanding people and I think that is for many the make or break of a successful outcome, medically and health wise. So look, I think here's what I would like to sort of open up with a couple of questions and then just leave you to just try and extrapolate them for us because I sort of want to focus on and have a deeper dive in into as you would put the lesser appreciated aspects of the human condition. And, you know, I would sort of maybe take some sort of suggested titles, there, which would be something like how, and again, these are some of the problems that we see with patients is that it's not that we haven't developed the right strategy for them. But it's really about some of their behaviours continue to cause problems with them being able to successfully take themselves down their healing pathway. And so, you know, how do we how to sort of really break the habit of doing what we know isn't good for us, which is classically what we see with patients, or, you know, some patients come in and, you know, they say, What, why do I find it so hard to do what I know is good for me, but I don't do. And so, you know, this is sometimes they just are not self aware, or they don't self understand themselves, or, you know, the thoughts and feelings could be from hidden damage from past mental stresses or emotional distress, there are so many aspects of this Rich, where would where would we jump in,
Richard Moat:I reckon the place to start would be with a very simple overview of perhaps the fabric of who we are as human beings. And if I was to break it down, I'd say there, there are three things that determine our results in the world as human beings and let's, let's see if, you know, you can map these onto your own life, and everyone who's listening. So in no particular order, we've got the way we behave. So our behaviours are the end result of our beliefs. And one of the things that keeps our beliefs in place is our feelings and our emotions. So the three aspects to who we are in the simplest of terms, I believe, behaviours, beliefs, and our emotions, so you know, what we do, what we think, and what we feel. So, if we look at that, and accept that, that is a fundamental, basic foundation for who we all are, we could look at each one of those areas, and we could examine someone's behaviour and we can comment on someone's behaviour, but we only see or experience the behaviour. The reality is that all our behaviours are driven by our underlying beliefs, what we think, what we have experienced, and what we have determined to be right or wrong, good or bad, based upon our life experiences. And then underneath the beliefs, we've got all of the emotions that we've ever experienced, typically, those that we haven't fully resolved or integrated, those that have had a big impact on us, you know, things that have been dramatic or traumatic, for example, the emotional impact of those events, stays with us. So when we're looking at an individual, we do ourselves and them a disservice, when we only focus on their behaviours, such as whether or not they're exercising, what they're putting into their bodies, how much time they spend relaxing, for example. They would be behavioural in nature. But really, what we should be looking at is, well, what is driving that behaviour? Because I don't think anyone really can claim ignorance and say, they don't know what good behaviours are, or healthy behaviours are, or behaviours that would support their well being are, there's more than enough information out there already, as we know. So it's not about ignorance. And then it's back to your point, well, why do we do the things that we do? When we absolutely know, usually in advance of doing those things, but perhaps it isn't the wisest or the healthiest choice? And so the answer to that question is, well, if we look under the surface of the behaviour, we will find there a set of beliefs about who we are and how we operate in the world or how we should operate in the world. And then underneath those beliefs, we'll have a whole host of the technical term is unintegrated or, a less technical term, unprocessed emotions. And it's that emotional component that tends to hold the beliefs in place that tends to hold the behaviours in place. So when someone endeavours to change their behaviour permanently, they're not actually working at a level that needs attending to, because ultimately, if a belief isn't examined, and an emotion isn't explored or resolved, well, that belief is going to remain in place. That emotional charge, if you like, is going to stay in place. And this explains why a lot of the time, our best efforts and our best intentions to change our behaviour, simply don't stick or don't last. It's because of what is unseen, if you like, in this fabric of who we are as human beings. That's how I describe it in simple terms, if that was simple enough,
Peter Williams:yeah. So can we again, can we just dig into that a little bit more? Because, again, you know, as I said to you, for us, it's what's quite tricky for us is that I think what's quite interesting is well isn't it is that we've had the opportunity to work with a couple of patients recently, where we're actually starting to layer some of the genes involved with behaviours, some of the dopamine genes, some of the serotonin genes, some of the stress genes, that are making sort of allowing us to add another layer, on top of what we've just talked about there. Can we sort of talk about maybe certain things around different personality types, and how they can cause a bit of friction, because, you know, again, I think, we can look at every single person, and you know, you can count yourself in this. And there are certain behaviours that we do can be seen unacceptable by other people. But or we can all look at something that we could look at the same thing, but also could have either a different experience or a different opinion from, and I think this is where, again, we tend to run into roadblocks with patients is because you want them to do something, or you've explained something in a certain way. And they have seen that differently, and maybe even taken that message negatively, even though that though your message was never ever intended to to be negative, and we see this, I have this with patients all the time. And you know, and that's where you've really tried to help us to understand the way we have to try and think about the person in front, understand the person in front of us a bit more and deliver the information that is most applicable to them, so that you're going to get the best out of them. But sometimes that can be really quite tricky, and sometimes doesn't work. I mean, I think any practitioner who's worked with the patient, you know, has likely said something with the best intentions with, you know, no harm intended, but has harmed harmed the patient.
Richard Moat:Yeah, and this is not just a thing in clinical practice of course, this is this crosses every sphere of life. Yeah, absolutely no. So back to this idea of the fabric of who we are, as human beings. We all have certain filters or preferences, we all have our own way of interpreting, communication, people, actions. And those filters and those interpretations are based upon our own experiences, what we believe what we value, what we understand works, and also what we fear. And I'm sure everyone will be very familiar with the idea that we have introverted and extroverted tendencies. So if we take that as a simple starting point, you put two extroverts together, they're probably going to get on very well, because they are like each other, they are extroverted in nature, there might be a bit of competition for air time, but nevertheless, they'll get on with each other, you take two introverts The same applies, they're probably going to get on with each other, because they are similar to each other in their nature. Now the conversation might take a lot longer to get going, there might be longer pauses in between what is said But nevertheless, the camaraderie, the rapport, the relationship will develop, because of what they have in common. Now, you then take an introvert and put them together with an extrovert immediately, you've got a bit of a clash of, well, people talk about clash of personalities, don't they? And this is at its basic level. But nevertheless, this is a good example of where it happens all day long. You have someone who is typically introverted in the same space as someone who has a more extroverted nature, and immediately there's a mismatch. So that mismatch has to be negotiated if anything is going to be achieved or even if something as simple as the exchange is going to be enjoyed.
Peter Williams:Rich can you give us, so let's imagine we've got an introvert and an extrovert. So again, I want to bring this back to almost like the patient coming in to see the clinician, and also for practitioners who might who might be listening to this because this is really key about being able to build rapport, isn't it? I mean, this is so much of a lot of the stuff that we were drilled in from you over all of those years about how are you getting rapport? Can we sort of talk about, you know, what, sort of, even maybe down to it sort of, and again, I think what you've always been clear to us about on this, is there's no right or wrong on personality, there's really good bits and really bad bit, oh I'm not going to say bad, there's really good and bad with every personality. So there's no one that's stronger than the other. So I want to make that clear. It's just that we're all set up in a slightly different way. And so are there any sort of little sort of golden nuggets of real simple explanation that you would see maybe in like a body language of an extrovert and an introvert and what what would be the do's and don'ts in that situation? If they've never met before? Or certainly things to consider, particularly if you're a clinician?
Richard Moat:Yeah, sure. I mean, this is everyday stuff. But I would hasten to add that it's also very unconscious. There are so many things that we could be thinking about in our daily exchanges, we, we adjust and we adapt unconsciously, based upon whoever we're spending time with or sharing space with. So I think there's a widely accepted understanding that typically, someone who is introverted is going to be quiet, withdrawn, slower-paced, more considerate, less demonstrative in their being, it's the nature of introversion. And the opposite would be true of your typical extrovert, more expressive, more verbal and vocal, for example, more engaging. And you're absolutely right, it's not about good or bad, right or wrong. It's about accepting and understanding that for whatever reason, someone has developed introverted tendencies over extroverted or vice versa. And really what we've got to do, whether we're clinicians, or, you know, anybody for that matter, is we got to wake up to the fact that not everyone is going to be able to appreciate, understand, accept and interpret our way of communicating. So there's two aspects to communication, there's what I say. And then there's how I say it, the delivery of it. And unfortunately, what happens a lot of the time, is people are more influenced by the way that I say things, then perhaps the content of what I'm saying. And this is your point about why things break down. Because you're not going to change your advice for a patient. If you have established through testing, and through what you know, what they need. So whether they're introverted or extroverted, that's not going to influence the advice you give them. However, the way you give them that advice, could impact how they actually take that advice, how they respond to the advice. So they're two very separate things, even though they are absolutely intertwined. We've got to be aware as clinicians, that we must tell the clients the Absolute Truth, we must let them know what we have discovered what we believe and what we recommend. Then what we've got to do, and I think this is the art, this is one of a little earlier, you talked about the dark arts, of the lesser appreciated aspects of the human condition. One of those is to know how to deliver a message, how to communicate your advice, how to position your recommendations in a way, that in this example, the patient is positively engaged by the way you tell them whatever you tell them, which then can have an impact on how enthusiastic or not they are about following through.
Peter Williams:And I honestly believe that that last statement is the key to I think why we've done pretty well and continue to do well, I don't believe it's in the nuances of the test and the biochemistry in the little nuances that you can do there I think what you've been able to do for us over the last 20 years has been able to get us to understand how we build rapport with different personality types to to ourselves.
Richard Moat:Yeah, and as you've already discovered, it's critical to the patient. Because we, I believe we have a responsibility as practitioners to do whatever we need to do, as long as of course, it's legitimate and legal and environmentally friendly and ecological, then we have a responsibility to our clients to adapt our own way of communication. So that what we have to tell the clients is received in the best possible way, so that they are compelled, not just because their health is at stake. But because they feel as though the relationship they have with us is one where we get them. And this is very personal stuff, you know this very well, we've both been doing it for a long time, we are talking about some of the most significant and important and in some cases secretive aspects of these individuals. So they've got to feel safe with us, they've got to feel as though they can trust us, they've got to feel as though we respect them, and that there's a mutual exchange going on where yes, we play the role of advisor and consultant and guide and coach and whatever we might call ourselves. But what we have at the core of what we do is the client's best interests, which isn't just about the advice we give them, it's about how we deliver it, because we want them to be able to understand it, work with it, go out and follow through on it, because then everybody's happy, you know, their investment of time and energy and money is very well spent. Because what we've done as practitioners is we have bothered to understand, okay, this particular patient is introverted. I must make sure that if I have any tendencies to be quick, or strong, or rush things, or not to be diligent and not to allow them time to sit and think and reflect and ask questions, I must tail those back, I must hone in on what the client needs in terms of how I deliver it. So that then they can take it in a manner that suits them. And this is one of the reasons why a lot of advice, which is spot on perfect advice isn't taken isn't followed up isn't embraced. It's nothing to do with the advice. It's everything to do with the delivery mechanism, which, as you say, we've talked about this since day one. So the onus is on us, I believe, as practitioners to understand our clients, our patients, preferences, their personality styles, the speed of thought, their desire to ask questions, their need to be listened to their time to think and process, we need to take all of those things into consideration in the relationship. Because for me, that's probably more important than the advice. Yeah, I would agree on that. Marginal, but yeah, equal, let's say equally important. (Yeah, definitely) How we deliver the advice is as important as what the advice is, I think,
Peter Williams:yeah, and as I said before, for some patients, they might have a two year journey with us. So you're just not going to get a two year journey, unless you can hook them in and communicate with them in a style that is going to is going to allow them to think Yeah, I think I feel as though these people understand me, it's not easy, because I still think you can think, what's wrong with this person, why are they doing what they're doing in but I think as you get, as you get a bit more experience on this, you recognise that, as you said, most of these behaviours that they're choosing to do are unconsciously driven. And, as you say, so, you know, it's not something that is that is conscious by nature. And what I would add on that, definitely, as me and you are doing now is that we're definitely seeing more gene related associations, with unconscious behaviours that you know, I like to call it the sex drugs, Rock Roll, and shopping and chocolate behaviours, which are, you know, we're definitely becoming more and more aware of gene deficits around dopamine, around serotonin, around GABA, which are all sort of feel good molecules. And I think we might be talking about that in some some future stuff Rich. I think I think we've got a few ideas, haven't we for helping practitioners on on all of these aspects really going forward? I always like it when we do just sort of I mean, we've been talking about sort of real fundamentals of personality types at the moment. Can we sort of we me and you work on a set of four, don't we really is to keep it really simple, which we define by colours. So can you go into that a little bit more. Because again, I think the key is that we're all looking, humans all will all look at the same thing. But we will interpret it in a different way, based on everything that we've talked about this morning, not only our inherent personality type, but our beliefs and all the things that have happened to us in our life to bring us to this point. But can we just go on and continue with this aspect of how just basic personality types may not get on with each other? Because they just haven't recognised that they're different? Because as you say, if you put me who's classically extroverted, I mean, I have been biting my tongue all the way through this podcast, because I'm desperate to butt in so I always write my little note saying, don't butt in don't butt in don't butt in. And it's not because I want to butt in it's just unconsciously I can't help myself. And you know, what does that mean? I must think, God, I think people when they meet me in conversation with a group, you know, I'm always the one who wants to have the say, look at me Look at me. And it's not, it's not a conscious thing for me. But you can imagine people on who maybe aren't extroverted think Jesus, that bloke just never shut up. All he wanted to do was dominate the conversation, which if anyone who's listening has been in conversations with me, then I apologise for that. But I think doing the podcast is is a really good exercise for me to introduce people, and then really work on being quiet. Because I think one of the key aspects of being in a clinical setting as a clinician with a patient, is that you can set the scene for them. And some of the best ever, consultations are the ones where the patients just you just allow them to talk for for how long they ever want to because, you know, there's a real need for them to be listened to. And I think listening is one of the absolute key skills of a clinician, but it's much more difficult for people who have a personality type where listening isn't one of their strengths. It's, and that's a real developed skill over many, many years that you've really enforced, with me in particular, not so much with the others who were slightly more on the other side. But could we could we dig into some of those, because I think, again, what's great for this, it's, this is just not for this is not for clinician practitioner patient. This is for literally on the day to day basis, with the family, with friends, and with just everyone that you meet.
Richard Moat:Yes, it's part of what makes us human, basically, and this is why it's so important. I mean, this is easier said than done. But it's really very important if we can to resist any temptation to judge other people, because inevitably, what we do in life, a lot of the time is we seek safety, we seek certainty. And we seek a robust sense of self. And unfortunately, one of the ways that we do that is through comparison. And when we start comparing ourselves with others, we start judging others, in an attempt to give us an idea of where we sit, either in the social scale on the professional scale, on whatever scale we might be measuring. And that's part of the human condition, I'm not endorsing it, I think it's one of the failings that we have as a, as a human race at the moment, far too much comparison. It leads to the wrong sort of competition, it leads to criticism, and it's a bit of a slippery slope. However, it's very real. It's what we do. And therefore, I think what we've got to do is get our hands dirty, we've got to understand that we've got to accept that this is not about being perfect. This is not about being right. This is actually about accepting ourselves for who we are respecting everybody else for who they are. And then working with the acceptance and the respect, to see if we can at all, get an outcome that both parties are happy with. It warrants splitting up because if we're going to talk about clinicians, and patients, I think the nature of that relationship does have a different dynamic to let's say, if we're dealing with anybody else in our lives,( agreed, yeah). So if we start with the general population, whether it's colleagues at work, whether it's family, whether it's neighbours, whether it's people that we play sport with, for example, you're going to find that those who you warm to, you're going to warm to them, because there'll be things about them that you like, there'll be things about them that you like because they are like you in that way. This is why we graduate towards the people we graduate towards
Peter Williams:Just let me just ask you a question on this, because since we've been working with the genomics, having a tendency to move towards people that we like, do you think that there is a biological basis that that provides safety? And that safety is having an influence on feel good hormones, stress hormones? Because I know we're starting to discover this, aren't we me and you?
Richard Moat:Yeah, there's absolutely no doubt about it. I mean, one of our prime directives as human beings, is to feel safe. (Yeah). You know this better than anybody.(Yeah). So on the basis that all of us without exception, continue to seek a level of safety, that makes us feel as though we're okay, where we are, we're okay being who we are. And therefore we can be whoever we are, then safety comes in many, many different forms. And it's a very good point that you make, because safety is reflected in those people that we spend our time with. And those people who we choose to stay away from Sure. Because why would we spend time around someone who we don't feel safe with, or we feel in some way might be a threat, because that strikes at the very heart of what we're seeking. So the people that we have in our circle of friends, those people that we spend time with, I mean, a lot of us, I don't work in, in a group, but a lot of people who work in an organisation, they don't have the option to choose who they spend time with, or who they sit next to a lot of the time, family can be the same. But ultimately, when we are engaging with other people, if we feel safe, we can relax, if we can relax, then we can be our selves. If we can be ourselves, it means we can be more authentic. And when we're authentic, it allows the real us to come out into the world. And that's a big concept in itself. Because a lot of the time and this has happened, this happens in childhood, we're sort of told directly and indirectly, it's not safe to express how you're feeling, you should stay quiet, you should behave, you should do as you're told, and that way you'll be accepted, you won't be rejected, you'll be approved of, you'll be validated, you won't be abandoned or left alone, you won't be disconnected. And therefore everything in your life will work because of those things. So implicit in the way that we're brought up is that we should behave in certain ways in order to maintain what it is that we need most of all, love, connection, approval and validation. So we tend to morph into a version of who we really are based upon the fear of, oh my goodness, well, if I do say something out of turn, or if someone criticises me for doing something, what will that mean? Will they not love me? Will they disconnect from me? Will they disapprove of me? Hmm, I don't know, don't really want to find out, too much of a risk. So I will play it safe. And I'll be a good little boy or a good little girl and we grow up with those behaviours unconsciously programmed.
Peter Williams:And I'm assuming you would, the people that you work with almost all of them have that sort of scenario when they come in to see you a little bit like, show me the boy before seven. And I'll show you the man is that the term that we tend to use?
Richard Moat:Yes, it's give me the boy till he's seven, and I'll give you the man. Yeah. What that reflects is the importance of the first seven years. In psychology, it's referred to as the imprint period. And it literally is the period of time during which we are imprinted with the beliefs, the attitudes, the values, the prejudices and the fears, whoever are or whoever represents our primary caregivers. Yeah. Also society and our community influences that as well.
Peter Williams:Yeah, it's Sorry, I'm butting in here but it reminds me the I can remember one patient this was many years ago who was overeating. But she was overeating because she was told as a child, well one of the mechanisms that she was overeating, because I got love if I finished everything on my plate. And so that was something that was completely imprinted on her and was something that she carried forward because if she ate her plate she got love off her dad. And we see this all the time. I mean, you must have some some great examples of that. Have you got any examples that you could share? Just just simple examples is because I think every single one of us has this in us doesn't he, or we're told things through mum and dad who, you know, to be fair are probably doing their best just to try and bring us up. But may be, you know, have said some some things that is actually negatively imprinted on us as adults.
Richard Moat:You yet it's unavoidable. I think we should start there, it is unavoidable that we are all, when we're children, we are all subject, whether deliberately or most of the time, it's not deliberately it's, it's unwittingly,
Peter Williams:I don't want to blame mom and dad seeing that I'm a dad of two boys and get told quite regularly that you can't be losing it with the kids.
Richard Moat:You can't but here's let's keep this real. There will be times when either you do lose it with the kids, or you feel like you're losing it with the kids. But you hold back. Now, that reveals what's going on internally for you. It's nothing to do with the kids other than the fact that what they've done is they've reconnected you to something inside of you. It's from the past.
Peter Williams:Yeah. And I know what it is. And that, you know, we talk about it all the time. But I think what it is, is that, you know, either very working class upbringing with a, in a sense, a single mom, because my, my dad was an alcoholic and died when I was 12. And so we didn't have much. And so my kids now are, I would probably say, because I've obviously, we're doing reasonably well, middle class. And sometimes, you know, your kids can be a little bit middle class, through no fault of their own, they don't realise. And so I get the, you cannot keep on using the poor boy scenario. And I can feel it building up. But you know, maybe over a day or so that where the explosion comes for me, but obviously, that's probably a really good example.
Richard Moat:Well, it is a good example. Because real, you know, and I know this isn't a real number, but there'll be a gazillion and one examples that we could come up with that would be representative of our upbringing really does determine how we emerge as an adult in the world, assuming we don't have any therapeutic interventions along the way, or our behaviours are coached out of us, or whatever it might be. And so, really, when we become aware, and this is one of the key words here, awareness, when we become aware of things about ourselves that perhaps we would like to change. First thing we got to do is go out, okay. All right. That's on me. That's mine. Yeah. Now, it may have come from childhood, it probably did. It may have come from your upbringing, it probably did. But like you say, this isn't about blaming anybody? No, this is about understanding its origins. Because a lot of the time, the stuff that we as adults are struggling with, that we picked up in this imprint period, the first seven years, they didn't start with us anyway. Yeah. You know, a lot of the behaviours, a lot of the beliefs and a lot of the emotional trauma that we as adults experience, you know, we inherit that, that comes as part of the package when we arrive. So for a lot of us, we're already predisposed to have certain things happen in our lives, primarily because of what's gone before. Now, there's nothing that we can do about whatever has gone before. We can't change history. But the good news is that what we can do is we can change the impact of what has gone before. If we have the thirst and the desire and the willingness to work on ourselves, when we come across something that we perhaps don't like the idea of, or we're uncomfortable with, or we would like to change. That's the time when we take the responsibility and say, Okay, I would like to understand the fabric of what's going on here so that I can perhaps unpick the stitching on this patchwork quilt and introduce a new behaviour or a different belief, or resolve a particular emotion that I keep getting triggered into because of either this person or that person. The problem that we have as adults is and society doesn't help us here. It teaches us to look for someone or something to blame for why we're unhappy or why we're angry or why we're unfulfilled. That's a sweeping generalisation by the way, but nevertheless, I think we've got to get away from looking for people or situations to blame? Yes, we can look and find out for an explanation maybe. But let's just stop there. And let's say okay, right, this is on me. From time to time, I'll get wound up by the kids. Okay? Is it the kids fault? Well, it's not because the kids are just being kids. And that can I understand and accept Absolutely, from time to time be a real challenge when you're in the midst of it. That doesn't change the reality, which in my opinion, is, we all have unprocessed stuff, we all have unintegrated emotions. We all have trauma, we all have had drama and conflict and negativity and stress and distress that we have failed to completely resolve. And when we fail to completely resolve stress and distress and trauma and drama, it gets captured in the body, we embody the trauma and the drama and the conflict and the negativity, and it becomes a part of who we are. Which means every day when we wake up, unfortunately, we're predisposed to either be stressed, distressed, traumatised, dramatised. I don't know if that's right in this context, but we'll go with it. So unfortunately, we're primed. The next time we come into a relationship with somebody or just an interaction with somebody, there's always the possibility that something from the past that we haven't worked on, might be triggered. And then we descend into either feeling angry or feeling anxious or feeling upset or feeling hurt. That has to be on us as well. Because the hurt and the anger and the anxiety, they're internal, and this might be uncomfortable for people to listen to. But I absolutely believe that our feelings are our responsibility. Because no one comes along and says, Here you go, I want you to be upset. We have to be able to be upset in the first place to feel it. Yes, no one actually starts off as feeling as though there is something fundamentally wrong with them until somebody else suggests that there's something fundamentally wrong with them. And then if we start believing that because it's been reinforced in various different areas of our lives, before you know it, we have embodied this belief and embrace this belief. I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy. And then that becomes if you like our vibration, we may as well be wearing a hat or a t shirt that says, Hi, my name is Richard. And I don't feel very good about myself. When we go out into the world, and guess what happens? People read the t shirt. Not literally, of course. And they treat us that way. So the feedback we get from the world is actually look, they're treating me as if I'm unworthy. I thought I was that's confirmed it. And then we get stuck in that cycle of believing and feeling that we're not worthy. And then that is reflected in how we behave in the world. So the starting point, really is to become aware that whenever we're moved emotionally, in a way that we don't like to feel there's something in that for us, because there's information there that tells us something maybe that stuck within the fabric of who we are the patchwork quilt of who we are. There's something that's not quite right. There's something that doesn't fit. There's something that disturbs our equilibrium. And that's the time I believe that we need to be brave and say, Okay, I want to understand what this is, and I want to do something about it. Because it is troublesome enough for me to want to change
Peter Williams:on on that point. I think most people recognise that there might be something where they are unhappy with would need to change want to change. But the act of change itself is potentially so fearful for them, that they don't do the change. I mean, this is what we've seen consistently. And I go for everyone on this, again, this is just not in practice that they know there are certain behaviours that they're doing, or some belief systems that are very negative for them, they need to do something about it. But the act or the thought of doing something about it is too painful. And therefore they never get around to it, or too fearful about what they might uncover. And I think there's a couple of things that, I mean, I've got that I've got so many questions here because again, talking about in you know, inherited family trauma and like you were talking about before and what maybe get back into that, but that's correct, isn't it? Again, if I look at many people, it's it's pretty obvious. I mean, again, this is where We sometimes bring you in is that it's so obvious to me that there is a component of this patient continuing to be sick. Because there is either things that have happened to them or things that they are carrying with them still, that needs to be resolved. But that patient's not at that place to resolve it. And I think needs one reason why because it's too painful. Well, they're too fearful to go down that down that route. And obviously, that's where we have to bring you in to try and help us out. Can you just talk about that a little bit more? Because again, it's not I don't think it's for us. It's, it's all of our patients are not not aware that they've got problems. I think we're all aware we should, I'd like to think we're all aware that we're, we're all a bit nuts. Well, but it's true, though, isn't it? I mean, we are so sort of just trying to scrape our way through this life, which can be pretty, pretty hard, I think, is the way to discuss it. But the fear of going down that route, and opening the box is just too much for them. And therefore they don't because again, this comes back to that safety aspect. Y
Richard Moat:Yeah you're absolutely right, at the heart of what you're talking about, is the fear of what will happen. If we go exploring, what will I discover? What will I learn? What will I experience and until the pain of what we're experiencing is greater than the fear of exploring it, we're not going to explore it. Yeah, and this is why we've developed a resilience as human beings to be able to live with the amount of pain that we do, because for some people living with the pain is actually their perception is that living with the pain is more desirable, than exploring what might be the cause of the pain. And you're right, it's back to the safety aspect. And as long as we're feeling afraid, we're not we're not feeling safe. So fear is at the heart of so much of what you've just talked about, primarily, because we don't know what's going to happen. If we change our behaviour, if we look at the beliefs that we've brought been brought up with, or if we explore the trauma that we haven't dealt with, again, it's part of the human condition, it makes perfect sense. It's a self protection mechanism. Now, it's not ideal. It's not healthy, and it's not sustainable. Because fear is one of the greatest causes of stress. We know the damage that stress can do on the body. But the reality is, we've adapted, unfortunately. And we've adapted to be able to live with a huge amount of fear. So much so that what most of us have done is set up our lives in a way where we are managing everything we possibly can, just in order to stay safe. And this is how most people are living their lives one way or another. And this is why anxiety as a condition has become more and more prevalent over the past 10/20/30 years. It's because we have more to be anxious about Sure. Which means we have more to be afraid of. Where did we learn to be so afraid of so many things. Well, we know that we we have an inbuilt mechanism, fight or flight. It's inbuilt. It's part of our makeup. It's part of the blueprint, we come with the ability to be able to stay and fight or run and flee. Now, is that useful? Absolutely. It's useful. Because of course, it ensures our survival. If I can stay in fight and defeat you, I stay alive. If I can run quicker than you, I stay alive. So this is not about saying we're wrong to be afraid. This is really about understanding that fear has tended to find its way into most areas of our lives so much so we're not that aware that we're living in fear of dot dot dot. And then when someone comes along and says, Hey, I think that what you should do is, excuse me, you should consider exploring what it is you're afraid of. Because if you do, you could discover some things that could dramatically change your life. It's a big leap for a lot of people. Sure. And so a lot of people won't, don't, can't simply because the fear of exploring the fear keeps so many people stuck. So it requires a gentle approach. It requires a considered approach. And it requires an approach that yes, will demand an element of courage. Yeah, Absolutely. So then the choice is this stay as you are, or experience the discomfort of exploring.
Peter Williams:And I think this is the point, isn't it? Is that regardless of where you're at the will be this some degree of discomfort in taking that journey.
Richard Moat:It Yes, again, it's inevitable, because if we're comfortable, then that suggests that everything that we've got in place, we're happy with if we're comfortable, okay? So if everything we've got in place is healthy for us, if it's good for our health, change nothing. The reality is, though, if people are willing to be honest, is if, if you look at the relationships you have in your life, if you look at some of the beliefs you have behind the scenes, if you think about the number of times old emotions are triggered, that you rather weren't triggered, then most of us would be able to say, oh, yeah, I've got a list. Actually, yeah, I could tell you a whole host of things I'm not entirely happy with. Yeah. But we've adapted you see, this is what we're very good at as human beings, adapting. And if we can adapt and keep things as we would want them to be, they might not be ideal. But if we can keep things under control, if you like, if we can manage certain relationships and certain situations and certain scenarios, and get by, or that's what we do, we manage, and we get by. But managing really is just surviving. It's not growing. It's keeping everything at a certain level. And I find my experience absolutely is that when difficulties in life come up for us, whether it's with our health, or our relationships, or our career, or anything else for that matter. difficulties come up because something's somewhere is at tension. something's not quite right, there's a degree of conflict that has caught up with us, that is manifesting itself in what's happening to us in our lives. And because the body holds on to conflict and drama and trauma and negativity, and stress, if we've had lots of that, well guess where that is vibrating. In every cell of our body, our cellular makeup includes stress and trauma and drama and distress. So we can't really escape it, it becomes a constant companion sort of thing. And that constant companion will, from time to time, reliably and faithfully tap us on the shoulder and say, Hey, I don't want you to forget about me. And then it's a question of whether or not we run our usual avoidance strategy, or denial strategy. Some people have a very, very effective denial strategy. I'm not afraid, I'm not stressed, for example. And if we run those strategies too regularly, and too often that becomes unconscious. And then the stakes have to get higher. The consequences of us not attending to the psychological and the emotional aspects of who we are, the consequences unfortunately, tend to get ramped up. And this isn't designed to be a message of doom, it's designed to be a message that just brings into the light, the truth about how we operate as human beings, how we cause our own downfall, by not attending to what we need to attend to. And at the same time, acknowledge that we're all afraid, there's plenty to be afraid of. And if we can look at fear as something of a way of serving us and teaching us and enlightening us about who we are and where in our lives, perhaps we need to consider making some changes, then we don't need so much to look to other people to other things, to situations and scenarios. Because we understand that primarily, if we're frozen by fear, and if a lot of our decisions that will be my delivery. Not that I'm expecting one. A lot of our decisions and a lot of our choices are then made based upon understanding. Well, I did that because I was afraid. Well, that's okay. You know, it's okay to be afraid a lot of people seem to think that they can't admit that they're afraid of something. No, no, no, we must. We absolutely must say out loud to anyone who's willing to listen. Yeah, actually, you know what, that scares the life out of me or that that makes me feel really tense really worried, really anxious, because that in itself is a form of expressing the truth about how we're feeling. This is not about saying you shouldn't feel afraid. Don't feel afraid. Don't worry, be happy. I mean, it's great advice. It's just not practical. It really isn't practical to say that to people, because we're wired to feel that way back to the imprint period. Yeah. So don't say to somebody, oh, don't, don't worry about that. Don't be anxious, you've got nothing to be afraid of. If someone is feeling afraid, or anxious or worried about something, they have got something to be afraid of anxious about or worried over. So don't give them any advice that says they shouldn't. Because their reality is that they are, that will be a good place to start, I think. Because then what we can do is we can accept and we can understand, Okay, the reason this person behaved that way, and it's back to the original behaviours question, the reason that people behave the way they do is primarily because they're afraid of something happening, which can then explain why when you observe someone's behaviour, you can say, Okay, well, maybe that's based on fear of something. And we're all afraid of so many things. So if we can drop the idea of judging other people accept that we all need support, care, love attention, a good listening to, I mean, plenty of us have a good talking to when we were kids, but not many of us had a good listening to, that would go a long way to helping things I think
Peter Williams:Mate, we've been going an hour and ten. And as you know, I think we could there are many times that we could talk and as you say, I think we are thinking about putting something together, aren't we so that we can get all these episodes into, into just a much better structure in much more detail? Probably for practitioners, by the way, rather than rather than patients. And mate, let's assume that you've got people listening to this. And I don't think anyone who doesn't listen to this won't have everything that we've talked about. Because, you know, we're all just trying to get through life and challenge our fears. And life is pretty fearful. And people who may have thought about going for help, is there any do's and don'ts on that side? Because I know certain therapies can be traumatic in themselves. And we've talked about this a lot, that that actually isn't a smart thing to do to revisit the trauma. I mean, what would be your advice for for people? Sort of who may feel as though Yeah, I feel as though maybe I do need to go and talk to someone? What would you recommend on that? Either, you know, from a point of view, are they ready? Are they self aware? Or, you know, who would they go and see from that perspective? Because there's lots of different therapies isn't there?
Richard Moat:There is. So let's start with that. I don't believe that people should be looking necessarily, at the therapy, I think they should be looking at the therapist. Okay, good point, so, the individual who is putting themselves out there as a professional who is qualified in whatever they might be qualified in. Because as we were talking about earlier, the key thing in making one on one work well, in my experience, and my opinion, is the relationship between the professional and the client. Yeah, that is critical. And for that reason, in my opinion, it doesn't matter what the modality or the therapy is. Because if you're working with a highly skilled, highly experienced, professional, they will use whatever they are qualified in, to help you move forward to move through and beyond whatever is keeping you stuck. And I think we've in this country in the UK, certainly, we haven't helped ourselves by making it more about the therapy than the therapist, but this is quite common.
Peter Williams:Well, I would say on that mate, it's exactly, if you look at a System's thinking clinician, a functional medicine clinician, is what I always say, I'm more interested to get this right. I've got to be more interested in you than the symptoms or disorder or diseases that you have. And if I don't understand you, then we're never gonna get anywhere. So in a sense, you're saying the same thing.
Richard Moat:I am, and it's a bit of a paradigm shift. I would suggest because typically what people would want, and this is with the greatest of respect, and I've been there myself in the past, I want the quickest solution for the cheapest amount of money. Yeah, I don't really mind what it's called. But if I've read about something, or if a friend of mine has told me about something, or told me something bad and said, Don't go anywhere near it, I'm going to be prejudiced before I've gone anywhere near exploring it. And this is back to the fear thing. So back to your question. That I believe that the professional is more important than the modality, I believe that it's is wise, absolutely wise, for anybody considering looking for help, to interview people, interview professionals who are putting themselves out there as experts in helping with whatever they might be helping with. Because if they are any good, I believe that if you interviewed them, I mean, have a conversation with them, obviously. But it would, it would be a pseudo interview of sorts, you'd get a feel for them, you'd be able to understand and appreciate and intuit whether or not they'd be a good fit. Because this comes around nicely to what we were talking about earlier on, is, if the style, if the nature, if the personality of the professional is at odds with who you are as an individual, it's going to be very difficult to make it work, it's not going to be impossible, it's just going to make it very difficult. Because if you, for example, the client looking for help are introverted, and you find yourself an extroverted professional, then we've just got to hope that that professional will turn down their extroverted dial in order to make it work for you. So I think we've got to find people who are looking for help, need to be willing to interview and get in touch with and open lines of communication with professionals who are professing that they can help with whatever it is the client might be looking for, and get a feel for them. Do you feel as though having had a conversation with this professional you could work with them? Do you feel that you could trust them? Do you feel respected by them? Is there an exchange there? Is there an interpersonal relationship that could develop? Do you like their style? Do you like their language? And this isn't widely promoted or suggested or proposed I know, and I think this is part of the problem with the industry. Certainly the one that I'm in personal development, therapy, coaching, whatever we want to call it, is clients don't do their due diligence. I mean, in some cases, the investment required of time, energy and money is significant. And it demands excuse me, it demands that you are thorough in your search to find the right person. I think part of the problem with that is that a lot of the time people look for help, when perhaps they're bordering on desperation, or they've tried a number of things that haven't worked. Reluctantly, they're still trying to find someone, but their previous experiences have prejudiced their feelings about their next one.
Peter Williams:So on that point, is a question for you. I can remember several years ago, having a consultation with a patient, new patient, who had been to seen lots of people before. And the conversation I had is that do you think this is going to work? And she replied, No, I'm not too sure it is. And so I said so well, that's quite problematic, because if you don't feel as though that things are going to work, they're probably not going to work. I also think about a quote from Sugar Ray Leonard, is that if I never went into a boxing match, thinking that I was that I was going to win, and only thinking I was going to win, then that was problematic, because if I thought I'm gonna get beat, I was gonna get beat. So what are your thoughts on that? It's answering in what you were talking about is, Do people really need to, I mean, bullet when we talk back to beliefs. It's really important that people come into a strategy. Knowing that when I say I need this to work, I believe it's going to work rather than a negative. So how important do you think that is?
Richard Moat:It's an important factor. I think a lot of it's misunderstood though. And that's primarily because of It's not just about putting on a positive thinking head or not as the case may be. It's about how we honestly feel about working with someone. So part of the part of the reality of anybody who is considering help is, most of the time, most people don't know what's involved, they really don't. And you can find out a degree of what might be involved before you work with someone, but I don't believe that you will ever find out what's fully involved, until or unless you actually commit to working with someone, and then it's during the work that you do together, that you experience it in its full glory. So therefore, you can go with something, you can go into a relationship with a professional with a genuine belief and positive expectation that it will work. And there's plenty of research out there confirming that a positive outlook does positively influence the outcome. Now, I don't believe we can say to what degree and I don't think we should consider even trying to say, ah well, you know, you've got a 27% better chance of this working if you're positive than if you're not. Because we've got to deal with the reality of things if somebody is going into a relationship with a professional. And they are scared, uncertain, doubting, feeling vulnerable. If that's the truth about how someone is feeling, then I think one of the things that will absolutely help that relationship work is for the client to express that at the outset. And then see how the professional responds to that. And whether or not that quells the intensity of the uncertainty and the fear and the worry, because if someone is afraid, worried, anxious and uncertain, about going into a relationship with a professional, you've got to start with that. Because that has the potential to be your real stumbling block. My experiences and what I insist, whenever I politely insist, whenever I get an inquiry from anyone, is that we have a conversation, no obligation, no cost, where we connect with each other, I find out whether or not they're the type of person who's ready for the type of work I do. The individual can interview me ask me questions. And while all this is going on, we're getting a feel for each other. We're developing the relationship, which may or may not go anywhere. But I believe that a lot of the time, people who seek help from professionals in the greatest, with the greatest possible respect, they're out of the depth. People don't have a lot of experience of looking for professional help. So therefore, a lot of the time people, I think, just fumble through those relationships, they will give something a try, or they'll give something a go. And if it's not working that well, or the first sign that something isn't working that well, or there's the opportunity to get out. So to answer your question, which is a long way around, I would say that whatever is true about how somebody feels about getting into a personal relationship with their professional, for their own personal growth, as it were. Start by sharing the truth about how you feel about having a one on one relationship, share the truth about your experiences previously. I'm always interested to know why someone comes to me how many people have they been to before? Why didn't those relationships work? Because that can tell you a lot about the person themselves. And we mustn't forget here that one of the most significant factors is the willingness of the individual to do the work recommended by the professional. You know we talked about it earlier on. The advice and the guidance that you can give your clients is going to be first class, it's going to be the right thing for them based upon what you've tested them for. So there's not going to be any debate as to whether or not it's good for them or appropriate for them. The biggest debate is going to be whether or not a client has the comittment and the willingness and the dedication and the diligence to do what they understand is required. So I would always want to know what someone's uncertainties are, what their doubts are, what their anxieties might be, what their previous experiences have been with professionals to ensure that one, they're not repeated, but two, to give me an idea as to the type of individual I would be working with, so that I could adjust my approach, if appropriate, to ensure that it went well, from moment one, rather than get into the relationship to discover, well hang on a second, I wasn't expecting that.
Peter Williams:Can I? Can I? Well, I'm gonna say can I butt in there in my usual extroverted way of just simply butting in. Because I think this is a really, this is a really important question, because this is exactly how we interview people at the beginning. And I want you to sort of expand on this rich, because we always ask our patients, what we've got to do, as, as I always suggest to them is that listen, we're going to always use this scenario is that we're, we're going to form a new company. And this company is going to be run by me and you and we've both got our responsibilities. But I want to be clear with where we feel as though our expectation levels are at certain points. Because if your expectation levels are far different to my expectation levels, about what success looks like, what progress looks like, then that could be a sticking point for us. Can you expand on that?
Richard Moat:Sure. I mean, is there any particular area of that, that you're thinking of?
Peter Williams:Well, I think again, it's it's a question of, let's imagine you've got a really complex patient that's come in. And again, from your experience, you know, that this is quite a long term project, you know, that actually, there is so much going on with this patient, there's only so much you're going to be able to get out of them in maybe like a three month cycle. But that is the maximum that you know, is that is the maximum you can get out of that patient through that three months, although they think that they're gonna get a lot more out of it. So it's a question of what I'm always what I'm always clear about is management of expectations, using my experience to say, here's what a really good outcome looks like in three months. And make sure that that is, they need to be told that. And I say that because if their expectations are way, way, far and above, what I know from experience, we're going to be able to get it causes problems, because they think we're going to move the world. And we are going to move the world but only in a certain way that I think is maximising that time. So what do you say to them? I mean, you must have that same situation, how do you manage expectations?
Richard Moat:Well, I tend not to use the term managing expectations, because I think it's overused and misunderstood. Certainly go with the expectations thing. But here's where I think the floor really lies. To ask someone in the position of a client, perhaps who's seeking professional help for the first time or has come to you because they've tried others that have failed to ask someone for their expectations will reveal absolutely, where they're at. But only based upon their own experience, their own beliefs about what's gone before, maybe about something that they read in an article about you, which is why they got in touch. So I think that one of the things we must absolutely do before we go any further with any enquiry is to ask that question. You know, what are you expecting from our time together, but here's the caveat, understanding that those expectations, may well have no real foundation and could be a million miles away (agreed) from what you know, is realistic. And in that case, it's very, very simple. I would suggest your clients suggest that your client shares with you what their expectations are. And if they don't match, whatever yours would be for a client in the situation that they're in. Well, that's one of the first things that you have to say. You've got to have that conversation about expectations. And, you know, put it under the spotlight have that conversation opened up, and to explain why your expectations of them, for example, might differ from whatever they have. Because again, with the greatest of respect, the majority of people have got no idea what's involved, you know, this as well as anybody. You've done it long enough, you know the intricacies, you know how complex client cases can be. Clients don't, they've got little or no idea. So the chances of their expectations being realistic, or the chances of them expressing and articulating their expectations. That also is very, very limited. It means that no, we shouldn't talk about managing their expectations. I think we should talk about setting expectations. And that's something that we do as a partnership, me as the professional, my client, one of the conversations that we have, or part of the conversation that we're having, at outset as the initial exploration or discovery conversation, if you want to call it. Let's, let's discuss expectations, let me understand what yours are. Let me explain and share what mine are given the circumstances. And then let's reach an agreement on what the expectations should be. Because then it's appropriate. You've agreed it at outset before you've even started. And the job is done.
Peter Williams:Yeah. And I think I think I do this, because I think it goes back to coming right back to number one, experience. But number one fear, because I think we all I mean, I've been in practice nearly 25 years now. And you know, this was not even a consideration at the beginning. And that can come back and kick you in the butt quite a lot. Because your patient is expecting that they're going to have three stone off in eight weeks, and everything's going to be healthy. And you haven't you haven't, you haven't expressed your opinion on where they are at and there's no doubt it's come back and kicked us in the butt. So. So I think I do that now. Because I want to be clearer to patients, but I think deep down Rich, I do it because it's a fear based aspects. And I want to get on top of that straightaway. You know, I mean, I mean, that's the uncut, that must be the unconscious reason why I'm setting expectations, because I want to be clear about where I think this process is. And by doing that I'm resolving maybe a sort of fear based aspect of this programme going wrong over time, because I've not set the expectations.
Richard Moat:Yeah, I think they'll probably be something in that. I mean, I would always go back to the point that I believe we have a responsibility as the professional in this relationship, to do a number of things before getting underway before, you know agreeing to work with a client. And one of them is the expectations.
Peter Williams:And again, it's not easy to do in clinical practice, particularly if you're quite new, and you need the business. It's much easier to have that conversation if your business is going really well. And you've got plenty of people coming in, because you can be a bit choosier. But you know, again, I think we are, we can make business decisions based on you know, the ability and need to pay the rent, rather than and I think we've all done it. We've all taken on patients that we know that actually this might not end up so well. Because you need the money. And again, you know only I think only so I'd say on it only sort of now we're at the stage now I think where I can be slightly more. I'm not gonna say slightly more choosy. But I recognise that it's okay for me to turn people down because not only am I going to save them quite a bit of investment in time and money. It's also going to be less stressful both ends. Mate I know you're writing stuff there. You've obviously got a thought about something
Richard Moat:I have Yes. (Fire away). Well, it was what you're just saying in that moment, the thing that came to me was yes, when we're starting out, it is very easy to compromise our values and to lower our standards. Yeah. And like you say that many times. Yeah. And I'm absolutely certain that I've done it also in the past. The thing that we really not you and I we but as a general comment. What I've learned over the years is To have the courage to honour what we know is morally right. Rather than what is financially right, is a huge invitation. You know, the courage to honour what we know is morally right. Which is either to say no, or to not to lower our standards, or not to compromise our values.
Peter Williams:Isn't this a classic example of all the work? I think if we look at all the work that you've done with me, over the years, I mean, I think we started when I was 27. Mate, I'm 52 now. So it's 25 years? If you look at that, I mean, you know, I think like everyone reasonably traumatic upbringing, you know, probably not the greatest of family units, although my mom was incredible still is, it still brings us back to one of those, and you explained it to me very well, about six months ago, is that I have such an ingrained capacity about being poor, that it lives with me, and it's always going to be there as a slight default. So, you know, that was probably a sort of reason why, that I would always let those moral boundaries slip in those early days, because making sure that I could pay the rent and pay the mortgage and have money was so ingrained into my head, that that's where, some of my boundaries would quite easily be moved. On the moral basis. I think still, and again, it's slightly different now. But it still occasionally comes up, doesn't it? I mean, we had, because we don't work with each other. You don't work with anywhere near the intensity that you did with me? Because we've been going 25 years so I would hope not. But we did have a call about six months ago, didn't I, again, we have these calls, maybe twice a year where it's clear I need some advice, I need change. And still, I think on that last call, it was about, it was about money. And it's crazy, really, but it is the, it's always there for me. And I don't think it's ever gonna go away. And I think there's a good and bad about that. But it does weigh me down sometimes. And you know, when we're talking about having the courage to stick to morally what's right is can be quite difficult. And that's sort of what I'm trying to do is is explain that was an example for me. Where regardless of the moral compass, that moral compass changes, based on how I suppose experienced and comfortable you've come in clinical practice with regards and you know, and how many patients you are seeing. And so I think it's quite flexible, isn't it? on that?
Richard Moat:So which bit is flexible?
Peter Williams:Well, it's the question of, you know, always you're right, it's having the courage to do what morally feels right. Because when you do that, the more you do that, the more you enforce the boundaries that you need to enforce. And we haven't even talked about our favourite word to me boundaries, which I think, you know, again, is a whole massive podcast, because again, a lot is reason why people are sick or continue to stay in a sort of sickness. What's gonna say sickness strategy, they continue to be sick is because they, they, they don't have the ability to enforce some boundaries that they need to enforce. And therefore, you know, they have this continuous stress response, that continued feeling in the stomach that this isn't right, but I'm gonna go along with it. Does that make sense?
Richard Moat:Yes, it does. And you're absolutely right. It's, you know, as soon as soon as the word courage is used, we're talking about fear at the same time as its antidote or as antithesis. And, you know, one of the ways just one, not the only one of the ways to positively reduce the impact of any fear is to behave in a way that challenges that fear. Because you see, most of the time, this is the problem with fear. Most of the time, fear stops us from doing something or it disables us. In the moments we've set out to do something. And that's the point at which we stop. We don't go any further. Sometimes what we need to do is we need to experience the discomfort of feeling the fear and make sure that the fear doesn't stop us doesn't disable us. Because every time we are afraid of doing something, but we do it anyway. We have an impact on our cellular makeup We don't revert back to I'm afraid. So I won't go there. I've hit that barrier, I will stop, I'll go back. So to behave in a way that demonstrates courage, because Courage isn't the absence of fear. Courage is acting in the presence of fear. And despite there being fear, and it's very easy to say, you know, have courage be courageous, don't be afraid we talked about that earlier,(which is, kind of why i gave that example). Yeah, and I think it's a great example, because from time to time, what will happen, inevitably, because we'll forget, it's part of the human condition to forget. Now, until something has become ingrained, until the programme that was set in the first seven years has been reset, we're all susceptible to slipping back into old behaviours, and old beliefs. And that's the time when we become aware that we've regressed somewhat or to any degree.
Peter Williams:Excuse me. All right,
Richard Moat:thank you. That's the time that we go, all right. Okay, this has come up, I'm aware of this, I'm going to do something about it. And then you get on the phone to whoever your coach or your therapist is, and say, Hey, I've become aware of this thing. Again, it's just cropped up for me. Can we go again, on it type of thing? Because I don't believe that there's, you know, personal evolution is an ongoing thing. It's a day to day thing. It's not a destination. It's not about getting thinking, right? Yep, that's it. I'm evolved job done. And we're always going to be well okay. It's a bit trite. Because, you know, personal development, as an industry always talks about the journey that we're on and the voyage that we're undertaking. I mean, it is true. It's just that I think what we got to do is we've got to make it more real world, if you like, in terms of, okay, what's the reality today? How am I feeling today? If I'm not feeling great today, what are the strategies that I have for actually helping me through that, you might journal, you might pick up the phone and speak to somebody. So as long as we have strategies for being able to work through stuff we become aware of, we don't need to be aware of many things at all, because we know we've got a strategy for handling it, should it come up. Because there are so many things that we could be aware of, that we can't consciously be aware of, because we don't have the capacity. So whatever we become aware of whatever grabs our attention, if you like, that moves us emotionally in a way that perhaps is uncomfortable or painful or both. Well, that's the time to go, okay. All right, I'm going to make a note of that, and I'm going to call rich, we're gonna have a conversation about it, or I'm going to journal about it or you take it seriously, because you've been alerted to something that has the capacity just to trip you up or to spoil your flow, whatever it might be. And, you know, unfortunately, bless them. Many, many people are living a life where day to day, there's disharmony, there's distress, there's disappointment, there's disarray, type of thing. And they're managing themselves through the day they're coping, getting to the end of the day, putting their head on the pillow, unfortunately, only for the same thing to happen again the next morning. And that's when we know, really, we've got to do something fundamental and serious and significant about the pattern that we're in. And our physical health is linked to our emotional health is linked to our mental health. We can't separate them now. But we're more used to going down the physical health resolution route than we are mental and emotional, primarily because of society. But I would suggest that really what we need to do and it does go back to what we started off with, you know, this idea of behaviours and beliefs and emotions, well, you know, that's physical, that's mental, and that's emotional health. All together. They're all relevant. They all have an impact. And certainly my you know, my work over the past 20-30 years in particular, has shown me just how significant our mental and emotional health is, when it comes to our overall health, and to not attend to those to not give those some degree of significance, actually has the potential to mean that a lot of the good work that we might do physically is either limited, or has a sell by date. Because the mental and the emotional stress and distress that is going on in the background, is not actually getting the direct attention. That it merits.
Peter Williams:Yeah, I think you're spot on with that. And, you know, hence, the reason why we work together is because we have seen, we, you just know, when, when the patient comes in, after obviously doing your work up and what's taken with that first consultation, you know, that you're looking at a, you know, a system wide treatment, but you're also looking at the reason why these patients continue to be sick, continue to have gone through many other people before they come to see you is because they are running unconscious, negative behaviours that keep them sick. And if you don't address that, again, well, this is what we this is what we we have to say to people, we have to say, look, I believe a quite a big component of getting you better, is you need to address X, Y and Z on this side. And we can't do that it's not it's not our expertise or field, we can do everything else on a systems medicine perspective. But we need you to go and deal with these aspects. Because this is where I believe that you will stop start, stop, start, stop, start, as you've done for many years, you get on the strategy, it works, okay, but it never really gets to the root cause. And that root cause is down to some of these unconscious behaviours that you're running some of these fear behaviours, and they are down to x, y, and Z and you need to go and see someone experienced in that area, who can lead you down that pathway. And I suppose it that's a little bit difficult sometimes for patients, because you know, they're already paying quite a bit of money to come and see you and think you're gonna solve it all. But again, I think this is where the honesty of the conversation comes to say, I mean, when we send you we know quite quickly that, you know, we're going to need a little bit more help. And, you know, you need to either go to people that we trust to help you on that side, or go and discover someone that we believe is going to help you in that area.
Richard Moat:And that's another example of what I believe is, you know, we have a responsibility as professionals, to give the clients the best possible guidance and advice based upon our assessment of their needs. And if we believe they should go and see someone else, we absolutely must let them know that
Peter Williams:which again, I think it comes to, particularly for practitioners comes to a fear of losing the patient, you know, but you know, I think definitely, this is where you can get to that point where, you know, this is I can do this, but I feel as though there are things that you need, and they've got to be addressed by someone else in a certain area, because I believe that is what is going to really sort of give you the root cause. We are we're an hour and 45 already. And we could go on for days on this. So I'm going to get you to give us some sort of key sort of clinical pearls and takeaways from the conversation today. Because I know we've briefed on quite a lot of self awareness, self understanding thoughts, feelings, beliefs. I mean, we've discussed so much stuff here, I think what we're going to do, while we I think is we're going to build almost like a series with lots of these episodes that are much more specific, you know, because I can think about I mean, you know, my, my key one is, boundaries, and being able to, you know, to sort of put those boundaries in place and how influential that is with life and you know, what sort of also, you know, past, past drama, well drama is a good word, but past trauma, and you know, even the, you know, the stuff that I wanted to talk about today that we didn't, which was again, is that, you know how we're definitely starting to see the neuroscience on with things that you talked about is that, you know, not only have you inherited this body and this physiology and this anatomy from all of your ancestors, you've also potentially inherited the trauma that has shaped them over millennia and how those epigenetically shaped them as well. And we're definitely seeing that in in neuroscience, is it Mark Woolen's book was it It Didn't Start With You, I think is a great book to (big fan of his book, good stuff) get that understanding that may be you know, the way you are is is not down to just you it's down to it's down to the way you're ancestors were shaped. And as you say, I think there's definitely some solid science coming up coming out on that. So we're definitely going to put something together, aren't we? I think we've talked about this, because we believe this is such an important process and certainly for practitioners in, in functional medicine, Clinical Nutrition, however you want, I think this is really, if I look at our successes, I think this is where the successes are, it's no good you understanding the nuances of biochemistry and manipulating that or, you know, understanding test results. And being able to give it to that patient, you have to be able to get that patient on the journey with you. So that you can get that long term outcome. And that's not easy. Mate how can we how can we summarise today what, imagine you've got again, just someone just general public listening in today? We've talked about a lot. So again, it's difficult to say what do you want to summarise. But what could be just some of the golden nuggets that you could give someone who may be has gone. Yeah, sort of sounds like me. Sounds like I might be interested in sort of moving into that space. What would be the sort of key tips that you would give them to maybe start the journey?
Richard Moat:Gosh, well, we have touched upon a lot in today's conversation. You know, I'm reluctant, as it happens to make any specific recommendations. And here's why. I believe that everyone who was listening, hopefully, will have been moved by something, something that was said during our conversation today. And therefore it means that they're in a different place with that thing than they were before they started to listen. So what I would say is, whatever you've been moved by, today, whatever has touched a nerve, whatever has woken you up whatever has been what might be considered an aha moment. Start with that. Because that thing has had an impact on you today for a reason you are ready to hear it. For example, the timing was right. It was the next thing that you needed in order to continue on your journey of whatever you're doing. So I would respectfully suggest that whatever's moved you today as a listener, take that and do something with it. Because the fact that it moved you, as a listener tells us that there is something of real value in it, I would suggest so not avoiding the question, but that's how I'd answer it.
Peter Williams:Well you sort of are answering the question. And maybe if people want to know a little bit more about you, how should we do that?
Richard Moat:Very simply go to my website.
Peter Williams:Okay. So we can put those in the show notes. Yeah.
Richard Moat:Yeah absolutely, it's Richard moat.com. It's nothing more than what I would describe as an online brochure. A little bit more about me. But primarily, it gives people the opportunity to get in touch with me directly. If they want to have a stay connected service, which people can sign up to. That would be the best way if anybody wanted to reach out or ask any questions. Very happy to receive them.
Peter Williams:Okay. All right, buddy. That's a really good place to end, mate an hour and 50 I really, really appreciate you giving your time and giving your time in the future as well. Because I know we're going to do we're going to do a few episodes and I think they're really crucial. This is probably one of the key aspects to getting people healthy. Certainly one of the key parts of the cheese if you like and is generally underplayed and I think it needs to be more forefront with regards to health and well being so I really appreciate your time today and I'll speak to you soon bud
Richard Moat:You're very welcome thank you for allowing me to share this time with you. It's been a joy, ok talk to you soon.