Living Longer & Better -Part 2

In this episode I welcome back my old mate Aaron Deere for the second instalment of our Living Longer and Better series. Aaron is the Health and Performance Director at Hooke - a longevity/healthspan focused medical clinic in central London.
During this episode we delve into the topic of supplementation. What works and what doesn't, in regards to health span/longevity? The team at Hooke undertook a huge literature review on this topic in the process of trying to understand which dietary supplements can potentially have a beneficial impact on health span and lifespan. I have no doubt you will find this a really interesting and helpful listen.

Links mentioned in this episode:
Hooke
Olshansky
Omega 3 Index 

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Transcript

audio1077315201

Wed, Nov 20, 2024 11:11AM • 1:13:21

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

longevity supplements, fiber intake, omega-3 benefits, vitamin D importance, green tea antioxidants, curcumin anti-inflammatory, lithium neuroprotection, NAD boosters, spermidine lifespan, urolithin A mitochondria, resveratrol limitations, antioxidant balance, exercise benefits, sleep quality, personalized supplementation

SPEAKERS

Aaron Deere, Peter Williams

Peter Williams  00:03

Welcome to function medicine bitesized. Now if you listened to our first chat on longevity with my old pal, Aaron Deere from Hooke, he was off on a bit of an adventure, which he just about survived. So welcome back, buddy.

Aaron Deere  00:21

Yeah, thanks, mate. Good to be back. Made it back from the edge of the earth. 

Peter Williams  00:24

Do you want to? Do you want to give us a bit of a rundown of your little adventure?

Aaron Deere  00:30

Yeah, and I've got a, I've got a story for you as well from there. And, yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a long way. Was 53, hours, door to door, two, two flights, two boats, but worth every second of it. So it was just a solid surf, eat, sleep, repeat for for two weeks. So, you know, really kind of gave a good opportunity to kind of readjust my thinking. And you know, a lot of stuff that you get caught up in here, kind of the hamster on the wheel. And it was good to get a good break from it and meet some people that live a completely different way to you. And it makes you kind of appreciate a few few things a bit deeper.

Peter Williams  01:11

You managed to survive the reefs then you didn't get too caught up on them.

Aaron Deere  01:15

Oh yeah, had a few episodes. There's still bits of me all stuck to those, those reefs there. But, yeah, it was amazing. There was a one one day it was, it was too big to surf and just to see the power of, you know, the ocean and the size of the swell. It was, it was incredible. It was only just for pros and crazy people that day, yeah.

Peter Williams  01:35

So, pretty good trip. Then, yeah,

Aaron Deere  01:36

yeah, amazing. So, you know, I've gotta try and figure out when the next one is to get back there, because it was in terms of surf spots, like it was one of the best I've been to. I got a story for you as well, mate, yeah. So this one, I'm still, still trying to actually get my head around it. You know what, what went on? And so we pulled up, so you go by boat everywhere, and we pulled up at one spot, and there was probably 10 or 15 guys out, and, you know, we jumped off the boat and paddled out. And it was just a bit of a weird energy that day, you know, like everyone was always happy, and it was just something, something went on. But, you know, we didn't know. We just got there and just chatting to one of the guys, like, what's going on? And he goes, Oh, you didn't see it. And I said, No, no, just got here. He said, Oh, 10 minutes ago, and this happened. And he told me the story. There was a lady sitting on a surfboard just next to him, and a fish jumped out of the water, and it was a really long, skinny fish, and it had a long nose, and apparently it was, it was called a needle fish. So this fish jumped out of the water, and with its nose, it literally impaled her in her chest. It went through her chest. So, you know, I don't know if it went through her heart or what happened, but she collapsed in the water and then kind of fell down under the under the under the water. So they've all jumped in and picked her up, and she's got a big hole in the chest, and, you know, they put her on the surfboards. And it was quite a big day. It was a, you know, big waves that day and trying to push her into the into the into the beach. And, you know, these are very small islands in the in the middle of nowhere. And apparently there was a medical center on this, this one island where we were, but by the time they got her to the medical center, she'd died. So whether she drowned, or it was from the nose of the fish going through her heart or what it was, but, I mean, just unbelievable, like, what? What's the chances of something like that happening? And, you know, you start to think if she was a metre to her left, or, you know, had caught a different wave, or whatever, and it's just like, wow, you know, it's been hurting my head, ever, ever since then, trying to figure that out. It kind of felt a bit like that, that movie, final destination, you know, where, where death was, was after you Yeah. So it was, yeah, it was, a, well, it is,

Peter Williams  04:01

in a sense, isn't it, which, as I said to you, it, what was it? What? What is the takeout you've taken from that? I mean, you know this, because you're here today, gone tomorrow, is the way I look at life.

Aaron Deere  04:12

Yeah, exactly. I mean, literally, it could be taken. You can, you know, try to plan everything you can. But, you know, there's, there's no way that you could have, you know, done anything different to stop that one you know so exactly every enjoy every second of it.

Peter Williams  04:27

So I think that brings us to, I suppose, the whole industry that we, me and you and many of us have grown up in, in a sense, isn't it that there is this push for perfection? I mean, obviously we're talking about, we're sort of on the longevity number two today, and we're, we're going to get your expertise, of your group, particularly on supplementation. Because, you know, I think there's a there's an argument, or there was an argument that's been pushed that we can sort of live to 125 maybe even longer. But I just read Olshansky's brand new paper, who's one of the key researchers in the world in this and he's sort of going against that, basically saying the, you know, the the percentage of people who will actually live past 100 is so minuscule, you probably shouldn't worry about it. What we are thinking about, aren't we, me and you? And it comes back to your conversation, isn't it about we want to make sure that we're doing the basics. Well, I think the risk for us, and this is why we've got you on today, is to be fair, there's so much shit out there on social media with regards to supplementation, both quality and actually what it can do based off decent science. And a lot of it's not based off decent science, but it comes back to chill out a bit more do the basics well. And if you are going to get into supplementation, which we are, we're going to have a little bit more about why would you do it, and actually, what does the evidence show? Because again, I think one of the key things I wanted to do with you based off your expertise, and obviously, if people haven't heard our first podcast on longevity, go and have a listen to that one, because we're going to be very specific to supplementation today, and then we're probably going to do a third one, which is, here's what we understand with science that is going to help you. And I'm not going to say, live longer. That's not what we're after, is it? I mean, we might, but me and you are definitely, we're interested in, how do we condense that health span, isn't it? So that, you know, we might get to 95 maybe 96 and we're only going to have a, you know, we might get to 100 you never know, but we're only going to have a year or so once you get the where it's ill health, and then you pop your clogs. That's a sort of for me, that is the the ideal sort of prospect. That's the way I want to go. And I think we share similar views on that, don't we?

Aaron Deere  07:01

Yeah exactly That's what we were talking about last time that you know, not to get caught up in this idea of of somehow adding 30 or 40 years to our our lifespan at this point in time anyway, yeah. But yeah.

Peter Williams  07:14

And again, I, as I said, have you seen Olshansky's paper? Because I'll send it to you. He's just, it's just come out, and Olshansky is one of the one of the main researchers in the world, most known for for looking at trends in longevity and where we are. And his paper basically says, Unless something in medicine is going to come in to sort of revolutionize how we look after people, there's no evidence to suggest that we are going to live longer with all of this. And I think what we're after with even all this information you're going to present today, it's a question of living to a ripe old age that you're probably going to live to, but you do it with a just a much greater health span, meaning that there's much less complications and the rides much better. It's a healthier ride towards the end, rather than you consistently being in pain taking a load of medication and your quality of life sucks. So that's what we're trying to get away from. And I think occasionally you need those, you need those sort of little things that happen to you in life to go holy. I mean, that could have been you if it had been 20 minutes earlier

Aaron Deere  08:25

Exactly. And that's the thing I was, I was talking about, you know, there's thinking about when I was there, like, you know, that I was in that same surf spot, I was sitting in exactly the same spot. And, I mean, that that is something you just can't, you can't ever plan for, yeah,

Peter Williams  08:42

so you're going to give it all up and just go and surf there. You're going to leave the wife and kids and go, no, no,

Aaron Deere  08:49

No no, I want to, I want to take it with me. You know, like my boy, he's, he's, he's nine, and his nickname is the modern day Savage, right? So I want to get out him there, him out there and have him catch some barrels as well. That's my responsibility to him.

Peter Williams  09:04

So here's a question for you until, until we, I know we get on this, but would you give your life up now to have that life? It what would because, I mean, you're in a pretty good position, mate, and to be fair, you know, almost. I mean, I can look back over 20 years now, I think when you were a little bit of a student of mine, if you like, and look where you are now, you know, heading up some big some big stuff in an area that we're both very interested in. So it's been an incredible journey to get you to this point. So you must be really satisfied with the work you've had to put in to get to this point. My question would be, would you give it all up and go and do the go and do the surfing? Or would you, would you like a bit of, a bit of a mix of both?

Aaron Deere  09:47

If it was just me, I would love to be on the the Endless Summer, yeah, just going from place to place. But, you know, I've got responsibilities to my family and my kids and, you know, it's. My job to, you know, bring them up and make sure they've got the best education and, you know, they got the best opportunities. So, you know, doing something like that would be at a detriment to them, yeah. But, you know, when I was chatting to some guys out there, and they were out there for three months, it certainly it was sounded appealing,

Peter Williams  10:19

as it always does, alright, chap, so look, let's, let's jump in, because obviously we've done longevity one and again, I think one of the massive areas that, again, gives me, and look, I think this is healthcare in general. Because every time you look at social media, there's virtually nothing on there. Where it is, I would say, Well, I'm not going to say nothing, but it's that there's, there's minimal on there that actually gives really good information. And I would say the reason why that is is because when you're trying to show always two sides of the coin, it's not sexy for sell. So let's jump into longevity. Let's jump into, I mean, I'm going to use this term loosely, longevity supplements. And your Hooke has done a huge amount of work, hasn't it, with you and your group, digging into the science, being robust about what the science shows you overall, and have come up with some sort of really good, I'm not going to use supplements, because, you know, a lot of them will be products where you know that the science on there is very robust, and you can give, you can give that robustness to say, if you do this, it's going to be helpful. So can I start with that? Because one of the, one of the ones I want to start with is, I think so underplayed, and yet, I want to start with the biggies, and fibre would be first,

Aaron Deere  11:42

Yep, yeah, that's a huge one. I'll just go back a step from what you were saying in in regards to Hooke. So we undertook a massive kind of literature review in this process of trying to understand, what are the the supplements that the dietary supplements that exist, that can have benefit potentially on a health span and lifespan. Now, the thing is, a lot of this is obviously observational evidence, because, you know, we can't have these trials in in humans because it's such long latency. But you know, we were meaning

Peter Williams  12:17

that you've got to wait till everyone dies before you can get the data exactly.

Aaron Deere  12:21

So we were kind of, you know, throwing out those, those mouse studies and things like this, because we really wanted to know what was, what worked in humans. And I was really involved with one of our Scientific Advisory Board, Professor Michael Ristow, and we went right down the rabbit hole on this. And it was amazing to do that with him and have the time to do it as well. So, you know what, what came out was, I guess, kind of a surprise with some of the the products on there and compounds on there. But it was about, you know, understanding the mechanisms of action and it being there, being a statistically significant effect in humans as well. Okay,

Peter Williams  13:02

brilliant. So which I think again, is that you're just not going to get that on social media. So for everyone listening, be very careful about what is said. Can we start with some of the fundamentals? Because, again, I think you know, when people come into us and you probably get the same Aaron, is that they come in with a misconception about what healthy looks like. And then they go, they go straight to the end, what do I need to take supplementally, when, actually, some of the fundamentals of, you know, healthy lifestyle are just not being done well. And I see this again, time and time and time again. And of course, it's an individual case base, but fibre is one of the missing components that I see with many individuals and and I think that's hugely exaggerated with, you know, actually some people who have good qualifications talking about how fruits and vegetables can, can poison you and you know you shouldn't, you shouldn't be eating them, which I think is just a misunderstanding of, of actually, some of the mechanisms that that fruits and vegetables do for you. So can we go back to fibre? It's a simple thing, but most people just don't do it well enough or get enough. Yeah,

Aaron Deere  14:21

this is a big one. You know, when we're looking at people's food diaries that they submit to us, it's really ends up being quite light on on fibre. And, you know, the UK recommended intake is 30 grams per day, but the average for UK adults is around kind of 15 to 18 grams. So, you know, like half we should of what we should be getting now, it's just

Peter Williams  14:44

such a big it's almost like, wow, this is it's just, you know what, It's just not sexy, is it? No, not at all. But the, but the amount of progression that you're going to get from if we just double this. We're quids in surely,

Aaron Deere  15:01

yep. And we know, what we've seen in the research is that those eating the highest amount of fiber reduce their morbidity risk by 23% compared to those that are eating the least amount of fiber. So, I mean, it's huge, right? It's

Peter Williams  15:13

massive, yeah. I mean, it's a quarter virtually, yeah.

Aaron Deere  15:16

And, you know, one of the things I think is a contributing factor to this is breakfast skipping. You know, like we kind of eat that eight hour, 10 hour window, we'll skip breakfast. We're basically cutting down a meal to be able to get fibre in. And if you don't have the vegetables or you don't have some grains or something in one of the other meals, it's very, very difficult to hit that, that fibre goal each day. Mate,

Peter Williams  15:40

Mate can I come back to you on that? Because I think a lot of that's been driven by fasting protocols, by calorie restriction, and where does Hooke stand on that? Because I know where I stand, because most people, I think, are, it's certainly the people that we see are, I suppose, the other side of the coin where they're not eating enough, and that's a worry for me from a point of view of basic metabolic rate and basic muscle mass as they age, which is one of the key things we're trying to do. And as a consequence, I said this is the problem, isn't it? People start eating for one strategy, but sort of miss the bigger picture of the other strategy and end up damaging themselves for the job that they were trying to do in the first place. Is that what you see exactly,

Aaron Deere  16:25

Exactly, it's what's the most important thing right now. So you come in and we, you know, we do your we do your DEXA scan, so we get your body composition, and then we see your under muscled, right? You've got sub optimal muscle mass from from where you should be. And, you know, we're not talking about you probably want to be the 40th or 50th percentile. You know, as part of a longevity strategy, we need you to have a little bit more muscle mass than that. So if you have a calorie deficit, a significant calorie deficit, because you're fasting and skipping meals, that's going to be detrimental to you hitting your protein goal and then being able to maintain or put on that muscle mass. And if you're 50/55, years old, it's going to be much easier now than it is in 10 years time to put on the muscle mass. So you're all the kind of, you know, fasting or restriction. I mean, we can still get to that, but let's address this now, because we know that as you get older, you're going to get that sarcopenic muscle loss, and that's going to be very detrimental to health span. So if we're if our start point is much further along that line, it's going to be more beneficial further down the line. So

Peter Williams  17:30

my opinion on all of this is the people who put this out clearly cannot be in clinical practice day in, day out, because if they were, they would be coming up with, oh, hang on, but if we do x, then it's going to affect y. So I think that's what I see. It's like, you cannot be, you cannot be a practicing clinician saying this, because you would be, you would be having to sort of weigh up all of these options, and you'd soon realize that, Oh, Christ, okay, we're not going to do that. Then this is going to happen again, I'm assuming that's what you see again. Be, I mean,

Aaron Deere  18:04

you can, you can make a case either way, right? Like, if somebody's going to go on some type of kind of fasting protocol, at the end of it, you can say, Oh, your insulin resistance improved, your blood glucose markers got better, you got healthier. But if, for that person, if they were still under muscled, I think that they probably would have been better off, yeah, trying to be in the long run of things,

Peter Williams  18:24

yeah. And I think that's the difficulty, isn't it? Because there's always two sides of the coin. We're like, yes, we can do that, but it may end up with x, y and z. So, and look, this is really simple, isn't it? I mean, for you, and again, I'm, you know, some what would be, some of your simple recommendations, then to patients, with regards to, you know, essentially doubling the fiber intake.

Aaron Deere  18:44

So it's knowing what those high fiber foods are that we're going to have. So things like chia seeds, flax seeds, that are very easily added to kind of cereals or shakes. And then we've got things like black beans, peas, lentils, avocado. These are all really high fiber foods. But there's a there's another piece to this story as well we've got to consider. So, you know, most people are familiar with the idea of eating across the rainbow. When we talk about fruits and vegetables, like your picture, you know you've got very various different colors of vegetables, because we know we've got different antioxidants, etc, within these, a similar idea exists with this fibre. We have many different types of fiber, things like resistance, starch, inulin, cellulose, pectin. And these come from different sources. Now different bacteria preferentially ferment these different types of fibre. So to you know, ensure we've got optimal diversity of that bacteria, we need to make sure that we're getting all these different sources of fiber. And the reason why it's so important is that this is what these bacteria produce, short chain fatty acids. And it's the short chain fatty acids that are anti inflammatory in the gut. They're the fuel for our Colonosites sites. These are so important, though, you know, to have the optimum level of the short chain fatty acids is really important. They're also absorbed through the gut wall, and then can be used also around the body, imparting anti inflammatory activities. And you know, as we we age, we know our inflammation levels are going to go up. And yeah, you know, kind of got termed inflammaging, yeah, anything we can do to help reduce that is big, a big part of the strategy, which

Peter Williams  20:31

Which is so important, because what you're talking about there is that you're talking about barrier function and integrity, which is so important as we age. And again, short chain fatty acids are systemically beneficial, particularly for the brain, for sure, so, but again, that's driven by keeping your microbiome happy with a whole menu worth of foods, which comes back to the diversity and, you know, and I think there's a risk, there's a particularly for me, there's a risk with a lot of the direct to consumer DNA diets, if you like, is giving them good information. But for me, it can feel very, very restrictive that if these are the only things that you're going to eat, you're going to be missing out on some of the fundamentals. So exactly what we're clear is that fiber is super important. It's going to help you maybe not live longer, but it's certainly going to make you go down a pathway that is going to keep you much healthier as your age. And it's so fundamental, mate, as I said, I come back to it again. When you're it's almost like, when you're having a conversation with patients, it's almost like their face drops. Oh, is that the best you've got? You know, when, actually what you're doing there is that you're giving them the best data, because they want the magic pill. Now, again, when we're talking about some of the fundamentals on diet, can we go to, again, another big one? Can we talk about Omega three, and obviously, how you've looked at that, and, you know, give you get your opinion on on the fundamentals with Omega three. Yeah,

Aaron Deere  22:04

this is a big one for me. You know, with all the blood work that we've been doing, we always assess the Omega three levels within the body, and 95% of people have sub optimal Omega three status. And you know, why is this important? You know, what we see is in populations that have optimal Omega three status, we see lower incidences of cardiovascular disease risk. Yeah, so this is a, this is a huge one. And you know, if we think about it as a seesaw, and we've essentially got our anti inflammatory Omega three on one side, and then our pro inflammatory Omega six in terms of arachidonic acid on the other.  If we look at the Western diet, we're tilted to the Omega six side so that arachidonic acid that's pro inflammatory, that it was kind of the what we find in foods like dairy, eggs, animal proteins. So Western diet is very tilted to that side. Now on the other side, to balance it, our omega three, our EPA and DHA we really only find in oily fish. So we're talking about salmon, herring, tuna, mackerel. Now, if we have plant sources of Omega three. Now these are poorly metabolized, so they have to get changed from short chain into long chain, and this is a very inefficient process, so it's not really feasible to get your anti inflammatory Omega three from from plant sources. So we assess the Omega three index, which is looking at exactly as it sounds, the sixes against threes. Now, the optimum range for this is 1.5 to three. So for every one of Omega three, you want to have 1.5 or three of omega six. Now the ratios we're seeing for most people is around kind of 15 to 20 to one, so miles outside the optimum range. We've even had higher than that as well. So now this is not something that if you bought it down to three, you would outwardly feel different, right? It's not like your joints are going to stop aching or anything, but this is the background inflammation that's going on, right? And we know that inflammation is the antecedent, or a contributor to to chronic diseases like diabetes, cardiovascular disease, so we want to do all we can to try to reduce that inflammation. Yeah, it's

Peter Williams  24:34

a super important point you've just come up with in clinical practice. And again, I just want to clarify that both you guys and what we see consistently is what you're trying to do is you're trying to repair the house. Now, repairing the house isn't going to make you skip down the road the next day. And in fact, trying to get omega three levels up takes a long time, and you need super high quality, so actually, but what I'm trying to say on here, there's very little supplementation, where you take it and you you you feel a difference, but it's almost like we how you've got to think about this is that you've got to consistently repair the house. It's not sexy, but it's making sure that your house is secure 30 or 40 years down the line, which, I think is what you're saying, mate, can you just mention Matt Bernie's study, the 2021 study, which was about the life expectancy,

Aaron Deere  25:30

which one was that you Omega three index the life expectancy? Yeah. Okay, yeah. So omega three index is another measure, like we're looking at EPA and DHA, and optimal range for for humans is between eight to 12% of the fatty acids in the red cell. We combine those two. Again, we rarely see people that are within that range. And that study that you just mentioned, if it was under 4% it was comparable to the morbidity risk of that of a smoker.

Peter Williams  26:07

Wow. I mean, that's pretty full on. Yeah, exactly.

Aaron Deere  26:11

So it's, it can have a massive effect on, I

Peter Williams  26:15

mean, that's proper. That's proper. Full on, scary stuff, isn't it? When you, when you think about that, given how damaging smoking is. So we're pretty clear that omega threes and getting the ratios correct are certainly having more omega three in the diet. And you talk about which I think ultimately is one of the biggest no nos, in my opinion, is the quality of supplementation.

Aaron Deere  26:41

Yeah, exactly. So we use a for our compounded supplements. We use a lab in order to do it, and everything is batch tested, so we can ensure that what we're putting forward is exactly what it says on the bottle. And, you know, the supplement industry is one that's been, you know, rife with with issues, you know, cross contamination, deliberate inclusion of products that shouldn't be there. And, I mean, we're probably all familiar with those stories of the protein powders in the in the 1980s that were toasting with all sorts of steroids. But you know, for anyone that's looking for a supplement, especially if it's on the sports nutrition side, anything that's got that informed sports stamp on it, yeah, you know that it's gone through third party testing, and you know it is what it says on the bottle,

Peter Williams  27:34

yeah? And usually there's a, usually a cost implication isn't there? I mean, generally, you know the you're going to have to pay good dollar for good supplementation. Yeah,

Aaron Deere  27:44

exactly you get what you pay for, yeah, you know, at the end of the day, yeah. And

Peter Williams  27:48

let's cover, I think it, which almost feels like the bottom of the triangle. Let's, can we talk about where we are with a good multivit?

Aaron Deere  27:58

Okay, yeah. So, you know, these multi bits, I used to kind of go back and forth on because, you know, if you have a good diet, you should be able to get enough of these vitamins and minerals. And, you know, I remember when I was doing my master's degree, I made a point of asking every single lecture we had, do you take a multivitamin? And the response really varied. It was a straight No, it was a yes. It was at times of high stress. I take it so everyone kind of has a different view here and now. After, you know, running so many blood panels looking at vitamins and minerals, there's very it's very rare that somebody has everything within the optimum ranges I've never seen. Yeah, there'll always be something that's a little bit out that can be further optimized. And then, you know, we've gotta consider here that the person who trains three to four times a week, they're essentially an outlier for most of that data, because that population data we're looking at, yeah, and, you know, we're saying, if you need b6, b2, b1, this is all involved in energy production. And if you're training three or four times a week, your energy production or your requirements is going to be much higher. So more than likely, your demand for B vitamins will be a little bit higher than the average person who you know barely gets their 30 minutes walking four times a week. So we also have seen some studies recently on cognitive health and multivitamins, and there was a meta analysis looking at some cognition studies that provide really strong, consistent evidence that taking a multivitamin really helps prevent memory loss and slow down cognitive aging. So it might be that these people taking the multivitamin are inherently more healthy, because that's normally what it's associated with. But, you know, it's a bit like insurance, yeah. I mean, if I take these, and, you know, obviously we've got some fat soluble vitamins that can potentially build up to toxicity levels. But you know, you have to be taking really a high amount. To it. So, you know, I think it's an investment worth, worth doing, especially in times of high stress, especially in times when you know you're under it, you know you haven't been sleeping well, you know, this is the time, I think, when you need the extra support, especially,

Peter Williams  30:15

fully agree on that. And as I say, just to reiterate, I've been testing people for 25 years. I've never seen anyone, and that's must be up to the 1000s now, is that, that I've never seen it so and I wonder whether it's a combination of, it's not that the quality, I mean, we see some amazing diets. It's not that. It the quality of the diet is the problem, you know, whether or not there is an absorption and an  assimulation issue going on, whether there is periods of higher demand, as you say, stressful, stress, stressful environments, both work, personal, etc. It just gives you a little bit more of here's a good insurance policy. This is a good brand. And you're I'm happier as a as a clinician, that I feel as though I'm doing the right job the with the data that backs it up as well.

Aaron Deere  31:16

Yeah, and then to go the other, the other way, on it, we see a lot of over supplementation. And the one I'm going to pick on here is athletic greens. It's, the number of people that I've seen with very, very elevated b6 because they take athletic greens every day. And when you go and look at the formulation of athletic greens, the amount of b6 in it is, you know, kind of three, four times whatever it is, the the RNI. So our strategy at Hooke is the the supplement formulation we put together is built exactly for what the person's requirements are. So we base this off the blood work. We base this off their current diet. We base this off the the exercise training schedule, and then we put it together. Now, each time we measure their blood work, we adjust their formulation accordingly. So now, for all our all our clients, we're bumping up the vitamin D because we know they're not going to make any for the next, you know, following four months. So we want to make sure we maintain that vitamin D level throughout the winter. Well,

Peter Williams  32:20

let's move on to vitamin D, favorite subject of mine. Crack on, mate. Let's, let's, let's hear what you guys do. I'm pretty sure it's, it's pretty similar to what we're probably, well, probably, I'm assuming it's almost the same. But let's, let's, can you dig into where you are with vitamin D, what you're doing, why you're supplementing and why you're supplementing now,

Aaron Deere  32:45

yeah, so you know, especially for UK, UK based clients, we know that we're kind of gone into this vitamin D winter now, where we're not really going to be able to make any along With the the lack of light the clouds, and then also the angle of the sun. With the UV V rays not being optimal, we see massive amounts of vitamin D insufficiency in the UK by the client time, kind of March, April rolls around. So you know, there's, there's two schools of thought with vitamin D, that as long as you're kind of sufficient, and you're in that kind of 50/60, range your fine, but you know, you've, we're not going to make any in the winter, so you're probably going to end up insufficient, you know, under under 30, yeah. So we take a more robust approach. We want to be up around the kind of 80 to 100 marker to really protect and, you know, the amount doing all these DEXA scans, the amount of low bone mineral density that we see is actually quite shocking. And it's not a, it's not a purely female problem with the number of males we've seen that osteopenic, yeah, especially in their in their lumbar spine. And, you know, we're talking guys that might be kind of, you know, 40 years old, yeah, and the first time we saw it, we're okay. There's got to be an error, you know, we but then it kept happening. So, you know, with these guys in particular, we want to keep that vitamin D level in that 80 to 100 round, 100 range, year round, not to even risk it dropping down

Peter Williams  34:25

again makes complete sense from a preventative perspective. And, you know, and this is the, this is the, I suppose, the ability you have to do that you've got if you can get people into a well structured program. I totally agree with you. So on, our point is that we've, we've just done all of our testing so that we know where our patients vitamin D levels are as we move them into the winter, and we're trying to optimize that. I still, I'm still comfortable working on a minimum Well, I. I sort of hang around. I like to get people to 125 to 115 nanomols, simply because of the COVID research. So I know you guys are a little bit lower and on that, on your numbers, it's interesting that you know when you come back to the fracture risk. But again, I think, you know, you could strip that right back, and you know, the questions I'd be asking is, well, how active were you as a child and a teenager and into your 20s? Because you're trying to peak that bone mass and density at that point, and then you're on that slightly slippery slide once you've hit your 30s. So again, it's preparing people in their 40s on their bone mass, for where they are going to be in their 60s. And there's a surprising amount of osteoporosis that you see in professional cyclists, but it makes complete sense when you think about it, because they're just not loading in anywhere near enough force to allow those bones to knit and structurally change in the way that you want. So Vit D is a big player for you guys, based on anything from a point of view of mortality, risk with with, with this. I mean, of course, if we're talking increased risk of fractures, then you're probably going to see

Aaron Deere  36:23

that's a that's a huge one, and the statistics around it are quite scary. You know that if, if an older adult, you know, we're kind of talking 70 plus, kind of range, suffers a hip fracture, they're three to four times more likely to die within one year of surgery. So you can take someone that was fit and well, and you know that it's the cascade after that injury, right? They're going to be bed bound, they're not going to be able to move around. That's going to cause that sarcopenic muscle loss, then they're not going to be as mobile, and it's that then we start to tie in that loss of muscle mass with cognitive function as well. So it's just a very, very slippery slope. And, you know, you think that, you know, one year wouldn't be that much of a difference, but it's what the what the research is showing,

Peter Williams  37:11

anything, I think, the anything with extended bed rest, or  immobilization or inability to move around. I mean, the science is absolutely shocking about what it does, which, again, comes back to humans are designed to move, and anytime that they don't have movement, you know, you're in trouble, particularly for extended periods and at such a big risk. Okay, so look, I think we've covered multi bits. No doubt about that. Vitamin D goes without saying, omega threes and fibre, again, both super important for anti inflammatory gut microbiome. Let's talk about green tea. Because, I mean, I literally chain smoke black tea, but I will have milk with it, but I am a green tea fan, and I think not just because I like the taste, but it's a pretty amazing product. So let's, should we talk about that?

Aaron Deere  38:06

Yeah, so that's one of those compounds that, through our research, we've identified as having a positive effect on lifespan through these observational studies. So first of all, we need to understand the mechanism of how it's doing it. So the big one is antioxidant defense. So it's that EGCG that neutralizes free radicals, reduces oxidative stress and then protect cells from DNA damage. So lower oxidative stress has been linked with slower aging and a reduced risk of age related diseases. So that's a huge one. Yeah, it also increases rates as autophagy, which is the recycling of those old cells. And you know that if we have lots of these old cells, they can, you know, mutate and make imperfect versions of themselves as they as they split. So that is, you know, the antecedents of a big issue. So it, you know, increases the rate of autophagy, which is a big bonus. And then it can also have a an effect on insulin sensitivity to help us regulate our blood sugar and have stable blood sugar throughout the day. So we take these mechanisms and then we look at it in terms of observational studies. Now there was a study in Japan 90,000 participants over 20 years, and they found those that drank five or more cups of green tea per day had a 15% lower risk of all cause mortality for the men and the 17% reduction in the women. So this was a this was looking at it against people who only drank one cup of green tea. So that's pretty sizable. And then, then when they looked at it in terms of lifespan, that translated through to an average of 15 months longer. So you get an extra year by drinking your green tea at that amount, according to this observational study.

Peter Williams  40:08

Yeah. Again, what I would say on that is it comes down to got to be careful with quality, because there's definitely been some research to show that a lot of green tea that may come in from China or Southeast Asia can be contaminated with heavy metals, so careful with with your choices. But a massive fan of green tea, from a point of view of it's antioxidant, anti inflammatory and and again, that sort of blood sugar regulation, because, of course, too much, too much sugar, too often, is definitely a mechanism that drives earlier aging, you know, certainly a mechanism in cardiovascular disease and insulin resistance. So we're all, we're all a big fan, massive fan, of green tea. And again, the evidence there, I think is pretty solid. And should we talk about curcumin? Because, again, this is another favorite of mine, and I take curcumin consistently, but I take it consistently as I come back to what you said is that, you know, I've had all of my stuff looked at with regards to genetic predisposition. I'm a massive pro inflammatory genotype, which is unfortunate, and curcumin is one of my added products because it fits my genotype for sure. So can we talk about its role as an anti inflammatory and where it sits with the aging aspect?

Aaron Deere  41:39

So this one, this one's a bit on the edge, because, you know, in our literature, literature review, we couldn't find, you kind of as solid evidence as we found with with green tea. But the fact that it's such a potent anti inflammatory, and it's such a potent antioxidant, we couldn't really ignore it. So, you know, we think that this is one that's really important. And you know, one thing with curcumin is that it's better absorbed in the body with fat. So, you know, this is why it's not always possible just to isolate these molecules and things are going to have the same effect. So, you know, we see it in cooking, you know, it's much better absorbed when it's part of the meal. But there's a weight of studies showing that the the down regulation of inflammatory markers in response to curcumin and turmeric intake.

Peter Williams  42:38

So what you're saying, though, is that, based on your literature review, although there aren't, there aren't studies showing that curcumin definitely extends life, what you guys are saying is it has such a potent anti inflammatory effect. And given that inflammaging is part of you know what is going to age more quickly, it's definitely worth a shout? Yeah, I

Aaron Deere  43:01

think it's something to be, to be considered, you know, like, we kind of just put it on the periphery, and we anticipate that further down the line, maybe we're going to see some, you know, more conclusive studies involving it. But it's definitely worth putting it in the same conversation at this point. I think,

Peter Williams  43:17

okay, I mean, I'm looking through we've I'm looking through the list that you sent me, and we've got such a huge list, and we haven't really talked about the fanciest stuff, the spermatidine, the urifa Lame, the NMN, because I think what we're doing, aren't we was we're trying to cover the fundamental basics before we get fancy. Because as I see it, there seems to be more in the literature to say you've got to do the basics of the pyramid well before you start worrying about the fancier side of of of, of the supplementation side. So interestingly, on your note, lithium is is a, is a is the so can we chat about that? Because, again, that was, that was an interesting one to see.

Aaron Deere  44:06

Yeah, this was a massive surprise for me. This was Professor Risto. He was the one that, you know had been looking at this one and kind of dug it up. And, you know, we're just going to start by saying, these are very, very small doses, right? Okay, everything that we're talking about here, and you know, what is the mechanism? So we know that it's it's neuroprotective, and it's been shown that in these very, very small doses, increases levels of protective proteins like BDNF, brain derived nootropic factor. It also inhibits a kinase called glycogen synthase kinase three, and this is key in many metabolic processes. So it's associated with enhanced stress, resistance, cellular repair and also eventually longevity. So the longevity claims are based off another Japanese study that was looking at a population that had naturally higher lithium levels in their drinking water. So this study highlighted that there was a reduction in dementia risk and then an increased lifespan of about 10 to 15% in these populations. Okay, wow. So quite impressive, right now, it's difficult to delineate it all, but you know, this is another observational study that's very interesting, and it's been repeated in other places as well. When we've seen higher lithium in the water in very, very small amounts,

Peter Williams  45:44

supplementally wise, So you're talking about lithium orotate there. Yeah, exactly. Okay, okay, okay, let's get on to the the ones that are spread across social media.  , spermadine and NMN let's talk about those three, because these are and again, here's how I look at it, and I want you to say no, Pete independently, it might be worth doing, because I look at this from a point of view of build from the basics up. Am I doing the basics well, and then what is, what is the sort of icing on the top of the cake that may enhance or help me? And this is where I sort of feel as though that these sit, but I'm happy to be disproved on this pal, let us, let us know what what you guys found, and what your thoughts are with these. Because these are, these are not cheap supplements. These are very expensive. So can we, you know? And again, I think that's the other thing to think about, isn't it? Is that, you know, cost does get, does matter. I mean, these are, these are not cheap.

Aaron Deere  46:54

Yeah, exactly. So why don't we start with NAD boosters so we've got NMN, and when we've got NR, most people are probably familiar with NMN. NR is nicotinamide riboside. It is converted into NMN and then into NAD. Now there's no currently, there's no direct evidence of lifespan extension in humans with any of these supplements. There are some promising results in animal models where they've showed increased lifespan by supporting mitochondrial health and energy metabolism. So, you know, we don't know yet, but you know, there's very big claims being put around these, and you know, NMN drips and whatnot,

Peter Williams  47:37

yeah, so can we just clarify that? Because this is a huge point, is that if there is any evidence, it's not human data yet, no, exactly, it's only animals. Yeah,

Aaron Deere  47:48

just because we can make a mouse live a year longer, that doesn't mean the same thing's going to happen in humans, okay?

Peter Williams  47:55

Because that's a really important point, because it would make you think on social media that this is the key thing to do. And then when you dig down, you go, Okay, well, I don't really see the human studies to suggest that this is pro this is, this is, you know, beneficial. And I think what I'm seeing is that some very robust scientists are going off the animal based studies correct

Aaron Deere  48:18

exactly, and we have to understand what the mechanism is that that's being proposed here. And you know, I suppose the main one is that we're talking about is that as we age, these levels of NAD drop in our bodies, and this NAD is like a currency that we produce energy from. So it's really important for energy production, energy metabolism. So boost. The idea is that boosting NAD can enhance mitochondrial function, increase cell repair, and then reduce age related cellular decline. Now that's all great, fantastic. It all sounds like it could happen, but we haven't been able to really show that yet. You know, because it's such a new, new molecule, molecule that we've been started to get attention on. Now I'll give you my anecdotal account of it. Okay, so personally, so I get the best results from NR nicotinamide riboside, and for me, it's like rocket fuel. So I've messed around with this for a few years now. I've taken doses up to a gram a day, at a gram a day, I'm so wired that I can barely sleep. So for me, the sweet point is about five to 600 milligrams a day of NR now the effect that I see is definitely more energy throughout the day. I wake up ready to go. I don't get an afternoon dip, but in exercise, I see a huge increase now my my marker for this is I'll use jiu jitsu training because. The rounds, six minutes that we're normally doing in training. I know after three, three and a half minutes, I'm going to start to fatigue, and I have to drop my intensity, and I have to slow down a bit, right? Because I'm old now, when I take NR I go through to five and a half minutes, six minutes, without having to drop my intensity, which is insane. Now the problem is that I can keep doing this, and I'm actually above the threshold that my body can actually tolerate, sure. So if I do this for too long, I end up in this bizarre state where I'm fatigued and kind of over trained, but I've still got lots of energy at the same time. Now, one thing that also that happens is it's really detrimental to my sleep. And you know, I've measured this with aura, etcetera, and my sleep quality will plummet when I take NR, so I'll start to wake up, kind of be half asleep from about four in the morning, and then I end up in this really bizarre state where I'm over trained, I'm really tired, but I've got loads of energy at the same time. So I've found the only way for for me personally, to to take this is to do it in cycles. So I might do it for three or four weeks at a time, and then I have to get out, get off, and allow my body to recover. So if I know I'm going to do something that's going to require a lot of effort. So the trip, the surf trip, it was hugely beneficial. I could surf for six, seven hours a day, and I didn't start to feel tired until kind of day 11, day 12 of the surf trip. So for me, personally, I get a big effect on this one, but then I've had other people, clients that have taken it and got nothing from it at all. So it's really weird. It's really subjective person by person. I think

Peter Williams  51:53

we're going to find that with everything that's really interesting to hear your view Well, personally, how it affects you, it's clearly working for you, and you don't think it's placebo?

Aaron Deere  52:02

No, 100% I don't, because there's just, there's just so many exercise related examples that I've seen that it's just, it's not, and I half the time I forget I'm taking it, to be honest. Okay, when I'm on it. So,

Peter Williams  52:15

so So on that, is there a is is there an NAD plus product now, because they're precursors. So you see a lot of NAD plus advertised. But is, is that NAD plus?

Aaron Deere  52:31

The drips I'm not sure if they're actually NAD drips, or if they're still in a NR and are I know they're advertised as NAD drips. So it may be, I'm actually not 100% sure on that one, to be honest. Okay,

Peter Williams  52:46

question for you as well, on that your thoughts with regards to IV, vitamins and minerals and anything that's put in the drip,

Aaron Deere  52:59

I would think if you're kind of dehydrated and under the weather whatever, I think that there could be a definite help with those for you to help you get rehydrated. And you might have been depleted a little bit, and if you're perhaps your iron levels were a little bit low, but you'd probably want to try supplementation or an infusion specifically for it, rather than combine it with a whole bunch of other vitamins and minerals. And I mean, it comes back to knowing what your markers are, of course, so you've not done the blood work. What are you going to expect to get from it? I totally

Peter Williams  53:37

agree with you, so I think I'll tell you what. We'll we'll cover that in another another conversation, because I think there is a playing fast and loose. I think for a lot of that industry, in my opinion, I'm happy to be proved wrong. I'm sure there's some amazing people doing amazing stuff, but for me, the the price outlay for taking something that looks like you could get in a multivitamin mineral. Okay, maybe it's higher dosages. Um, just doesn't make sense to me. So anyone who wants to disprove me on that, come give me a conversation. I'd love to know more on that, because I'm sure some people must be doing some good stuff. Let's talk about spermata, spermatidine. Okay,

Aaron Deere  54:19

yeah. So spermidine. So, you know, we saw observational study, which had over 800 participants, found that higher dietary intake of spermidine was associated with reduced or caused mortality by up to approximately 30% so, you know, again, very interesting. Another observational study that that saw this, and you know, in animal studies, we've also seen that spermidine supplementation has been linked to increases in lifespan. Now, in terms of spermidine, one of the diets that has the highest amounts of it is actually the Mediterranean diet, yeah, okay, so, you know, we go back into the idea of, is it more than just this? Isolated molecule. So we go to look at the mechanisms of how it could work. It is also an autophagy inducer, as we said about some of the other supplements that

Peter Williams  55:13

we say about it cleans all the crap autophagy, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

Aaron Deere  55:18

then it's also an immunomodulator, and the effects it has is also as a calorie restriction remetic as well. So there's a lot of potential mechanisms here within it. But again, it's still early days in terms of, you know, trying to find out what it does in humans do, I think that it's going to do any harm. No, probably not, because it's in our diet. So I think this one is probably a really low risk supplement to take, and, you know, might have some benefit, but again, we're not there yet in terms of being able to say that it's going to do X or Y in humans.

Peter Williams  55:55

So I suppose a similar conversation that some patients may have with me, that they have with you, is that, what do you think? And my line is, usually, I don't think it'll do you any harm, but it's going to be difficult for us to monitor and measure its outcomes. I mean, the NAD precursors are obviously, clearly different, because, as you said, you've got a very distinct increase in your energetics were, whereas the others, I just say, Listen, you know, if you want to spend the money, it's not going to do any harm and it might be beneficial. What should we talk about? UrolithinA, because, again, this one, again, is another interesting one. Yeah,

Aaron Deere  56:39

so this is a, this is another interesting one that's in the, you know, keep an eye on it box. So this is involved in the molecules, involved in mitochondrial function. So we know that we see a lack or we see a kind of downturn in mitochondrial function as we as we begin to age. So anything we can do to promote the health of those mitochondria, we're probably going to be interested in. So it's we find it in things like pomegranate and it's those elder tannins that are transformed by the gut bacteria that have the beneficial effects. Now this urolithin, a molecule there's been some clinical trials run in adults in humans that showed improved muscle strength and endurance, which may support healthier aging and then reduce frailty and morbidity in these aging populations. So the key mechanisms of action that we see from this molecule. It's a Mytophagy inducer. So this means that it'll remove the damaged mitochondria and then enhance the quality of the ones that are currently there, and then help in mitochondrial biogenesis, which is making new mitochondria. It also has anti inflammatory properties as well. So we've talked about that or in depth, and there was a, there's actually a product out, a supplement out, and it's, it's called mito pure, yeah, which is this Urolithin A supplement. But I remember, actually, it was at that longevity, yeah, a couple of years ago, we were having a good chat to the people there. And yeah, that were using it, and the study that they were basing it all on seemed all a bit flawed in terms of of what it was, there was reductions in strength in the in the intervention group. And yeah, they kind of picked a funny study to to base it all on, because, I mean, obviously showed an increase in vo two Max, or whatever it was the marker, but the rest of the markers just didn't make sense that they were

Peter Williams  58:46

assessing. So I think, to be continued on that one, I think is the way I look, I look at it, and again, I mean, Mitopure is not a cheap supplement. So, but if you've got the money you want to give it a try, then I suppose it's a question of, it's a question of, how do you how are we going to measure this? Because this is the other, this is the great thing is, I feel amazing. And my first question is to them, Well, how are you measuring it? You know, what is your what? What is the data that tells you that you, that it, you know, you it's it's improved. And that's the risk with all of this, because it always comes down to, you know, and a lot, there's nothing wrong with anecdotals, because we take yours with the with yours with with the the NAD precursors, it's clear to you that you feel a very big difference, clear. And that's not placebo. So, so you can't dismiss the anecdotal aspects of this, but when you're coming down to these companies, and you're like, Well, how will we, how do I measure this? What is it that I'm going to measure with and, you know, I think, well, can't we just get people fitter with cardiovascular exercise? It's going to do exactly the same role or certainly a similar role. It's just, it's just a bit more difficult to do. So I think UrolithinA I think, again, I think to be continued, if you want to buy mito pure, no problem with that. But it's not going to make you into, you know, again, unless you've got a way of measuring V02 there is accurate. I'm not quite sure how that and how did they measure it in that study? Was it? Was it through maximal? Was it through what's the, what's the word mate when you're respiratory quotient? Or how do they measure it?

Aaron Deere  1:00:32

Oh, I can't even, I can't even remember. I just remember that they were measuring V02, I think is one of the markers, and that's what they were basing the beneficial effects on and just to jump on a point that you just made there, the key bit to remember is, these are dietary supplements. They are a supplement to the diet. They add on to the diet, and we should extend this to they add on to training. They add on to sleep quality. Yeah. Now, these are not magic pills. You know, we can take that will be in the place of training or be in the place of a good diet. These are the periphery. These are the additional 5% that we're going to be looking to gain if the rest of the foundation of the house is not right, you know, it's not going to have no effect.

Peter Williams  1:01:25

So you are going to have similar patients sometimes that come into me and you have that conversation, and sometimes they look at you from a point of view of the sort of look I get sometimes is you keep coming back to the basics, and I want, I want the gold dust. Is this what I'm paying you for? And it's, I mean, is that sometimes the look that you get,

Aaron Deere  1:01:54

yeah, definitely, you know, it's like, yeah, but, but what's the next thing? You know, what? What else can I take? What else can I have? Like, there has to be something there that I can, that I can take that's going to help me. But, you know, it's about them kind of trusting, you know, like we can make it, we've got some bits here. We can make huge changes in and this is going to be what has the big effect. And once they are able to put it in place, and they see improved sleep, improve energy levels, etc, then it becomes a much easier sale, if you would, in terms of understanding what the key parts of that foundation of the program is.

Peter Williams  1:02:35

So again, you've got to do the basics well, because if you don't, then a lot of these supplements really probably aren't going to show any sort of measurable changes. Mate, I'm going to talk, I appreciate. We're already well over the hour here, so I am going to, I'm going to ask you about three resveratrol, Quercitin and Fisetin  as well. Can we sort of amalgamate all of those into what you found and what you think, because resveratrol was almost like the start of this. Wasn't it. It was the starter. David Sinclair found it in found, found this compound. And you know, mice were living super long with this substance, and yet it sort of fell away. So in the subsequent years,

Aaron Deere  1:03:26

Yeah, he sold it, sold it for, like, 400 million or something.

Peter Williams  1:03:30

I think it was more than that. It was something like $800 million he sold it for, yeah, and then they never

Aaron Deere  1:03:35

even, they never even put it into actual, like, production, right? They realized that it wasn't going to have an effect, yeah, so, you know, again, this is the perfect example of what happens in a mouse. Doesn't necessarily happen in a human. And, you know, if you break down the research, the the doses, the dose sizes they were using with these mice were, you know, not feasible to be able to be used in humans. So, you know, it has mechanisms of actions. It's antioxidant. Is proposed to be a sirtuin activator as well. But, you know, it never, ever kind of showed the benefits in humans that it did end up showing in those, those animal studies. So that's kind of a, I mean, there's still a lot of people that take it again. Do I think that it's going to be detrimental or have real side effects? No, probably not. So, you know, if you kind of want, if you're taking it, I don't think it's going to cause you harm. No,

Peter Williams  1:04:27

it's a good antioxidant It's got good studies to show it's a good antioxidant, I think exactly, but it, but it wasn't the 800 million sort of price tag, unfortunately. But I bet they were gutted when they when, when they couldn't get any, any advances in in humans, like they did in in the in in the mice. Studies, again, Quercitin, can we? Can we briefly on that one? Yeah,

Aaron Deere  1:04:52

so that one is a flavonoid that has antioxidant, anti inflammatory properties, and then it also has cinnamonic activity. So. So basically, it kind of helps clear those senescent cells which can accumulate with age and cause inflammation and then tissue dysfunction. So, you know, that's a big one. And,

Peter Williams  1:05:10

and can we just sort, senescent cells? Can we just give a sort of a brief understanding about, you know, because as we age, you know, our cells don't divide as nicely as we would like, everything gets a bit scruffy, more cellular debris hang around, and some cells just sit there, sort of being slightly angry. So can you sort of, I mean, I'm assuming, really, that's how you'd probably describe senescent cells, really, yeah,

Aaron Deere  1:05:36

exactly. And they kind of influence their neighbors as well, and their neighbors become angry, yeah. And you've got a whole bunch of cells that are no longer functioning optimally. And then, you know, these type of products help to reduce these through apoptosis and the killing off of the cell. And then we, you know, regrow these new functional cells. And there's just one, one bit here that I want to kind of highlight is, we've talked a lot about antioxidant supplements. And, you know, the the devil's in the detail here, because we're talking about, you know, small doses of these, and we're talking about potentially adding, you know, more of these antioxidant rich foods in the diet. Because we have to go back many years when they first identified these kind of antioxidants that were in food. And they said, look at all these people eating these fruits and vegetables that are living longer. What is it? And you know, part of the theory was these antioxidants. And they thought, well, if we give these antioxidants on their own to people, surely they're going to be healthier and live longer. So they did this at at Big doses, rather not what you'd find in the diet much, much greater and guess what they found? They actually killed these people quicker. They died quicker. There was a number of studies that had to be stopped early, because it was very clear that these people were dying at a faster rate. So it was this pro oxidant effect that we were seeing. So there is a very fine line here in terms of, you know, what we get from the diet and the benefits it has versus pharmacological when we're talking about antioxidants. So more is not always more, you know, we sometimes we can't cheat the body and we can't cheat Mother Nature. So I just wanted to put that in context when we're talking about these antioxidant supplements. I

Peter Williams  1:07:30

think it's really important, because what it also comes in to show us is that you the whole point about we talked about, you know, you've got these people on social media saying, don't eat fruits and vegetables because they have compounds that you know your body, you know almost your body, that defends the fruits and vegetables against insecticides and and herbicides, etc. And they can be they tell you that the they can be damaging to you. But the reality of what was happening is that they create this hormetic stress, and they do have these compounds that challenge your body. But the challenge to the body means that the body expresses more of its own antioxidant protection against against it, and that's where a lot of the beneficial effects to humans come from. Can you just clarify what happens with this? We're around exercise as well.

Aaron Deere  1:08:26

Yeah. So you know oxidative stress, the amount of free radicals in the body, goes up when we exercise. So we're technically in a in a worse state here. But this is part of the adaptation process. This is what kind of strengthens our endogenous antioxidant system. These these little bouts of it that you know are manageable, but you know, this is also part of kind of the over training model as well that we know we're going to get all this oxidative stress at a level that we may not be able to recover from. But yeah, it's definitely part of the adaptation process that allows us our body to become stronger and deal with other insults. And what

Peter Williams  1:09:09

we've also seen, haven't we, is that taking large doses of antioxidants after training blunts the beneficial effects that the training has on the human body. Yeah, exactly. There's an argument with regards to timing of events, which comes back to suppressing natural aspects of the human body, a little bit like, if I can give an example here, consistent cold bathing after training dampens the inflammatory response that essentially creates the adaptation. So I think there's a lot of stuff that was sort of, and, look, I mean, no one, no one really knows everything that's going on, but it's really interesting to see that your body's been around for, you know, we've been around for a very long time, and it's very smart. It has all of these protective mechanisms, and it's just a question of how you amalgamate all of that together and not overdo it. And I think we are at that point with longevity supplements, where I think there could be a situation where, through no fault of our own, we overdo it. Mate, can you summarize up then? Because I think this has been incredibly helpful. Because, again, I think it brings it back to there are certain things that you could take that are likely to be beneficial, but the biggest wins seem to be in the fundamental basics. We have these newer products that, again, I think we would be looking at, we don't think there'd be any harm, except to your pocket, and because they're not cheap, but it'd be that they would be ones where you could certainly experiment to see what were your how you go with it. And again, I think your your experience with with NAD precursors, I think, is really interesting. So I'll you can let me know where you get that from, and I'll give that a go and see it. See how I feel. But how would you summarize all of this up for the general public?

Aaron Deere  1:11:04

Yeah, I think the key bit to understand is that these supplements are not going to change your life. They are not magical elixirs that you're going to find the right one for you. They're just an add on to what you're doing to give you an additional maybe five or 10% the key still lies in getting that foundation of the house right, the food, the sleep, the exercise. There's no supplement that's going to be able to increase your VO two Max like actually doing cardiovascular exercise will. So if it's about a health span strategy. We really need to tick all those boxes first, and then we can start to look at these add ons. And, you know, it's, there's a lot of good advertising, and it's, it's a sexy story with a lot of these kind of, yeah, but as we stand now, the evidence isn't there for a lot of them. So we just need to kind of put on our scientific glasses whilst we're kind of sifting through the claims of what they're making to understand all right, does this really make sense? And where is this evidence being generated from? And is it applicable to me, and could it have a beneficial effect for me,

Peter Williams  1:12:21

Mate as ever super solid. I'm glad. So look, I think we I think we should almost round up. We should do one more where we round up what we really know, with regards to longevity, with regards to stuff like sleep, exercise, calorie restriction, we should do that in another one. So because what we're doing, though, is talking about the mechanisms that we understand, and then we can talk about how we apply that to to people on a daily basis. But for now, thank you so much for you and your guys, the research that you've done into into an area where we can get properly ripped off, and what a story. Glad you're still here. Mate,

Aaron Deere  1:13:03

yeah, still, you know, still trying to figure it out. You know, very, very, very lucky. So you know, you think you might drown, or it might be a shark attack or something, but you know, something like that is blows your mind.

Peter Williams  1:13:16

Yeah, alright, mate. I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much. Alright,

Aaron Deere  1:13:19

Cheers, mate.