Gut Feelings: Dr. Partha Nandi's Roadmap to Becoming Your Own Health Superhero

In this enlightening episode of Functional Medicine Bite Sized, host Peter Williams interviews Dr. Partha Nandy, a renowned gastroenterologist and systems thinker. Dr. Nandy shares his remarkable journey from a childhood health challenge to becoming a passionate advocate for holistic health. Diving deep into the gut-brain connection, he explores how our microbiome impacts everything from mental health to chronic diseases. Listeners will gain insights into practical strategies for improving gut health, understanding the intricate relationship between diet, stress, and overall wellness. With personal stories, clinical expertise, and a forward-looking perspective, Dr. Nandy offers a compelling roadmap to becoming your own health hero.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Dr Nandi Show 

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Transcript

audio1889838466

Tue, Jul 15, 2025 1:35PM • 1:04:20

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Functional medicine, gut health, brain connection, microbiome, dietary diversity, stress management, immune system, autoimmune diseases, Crohn's disease, Mediterranean diet, prebiotics, probiotics, Omega-3 fatty acids, community engagement, workplace wellness.

SPEAKERS

Peter Williams, Dr Partha Nandi

Peter Williams  00:00

So welcome everyone. Welcome to you can hear my voice. I'm pretty excited on this one. So welcome to functional medicine. Bite sized I'm interviewing today, Dr Partha Nandy, if you don't know him, go and check him out on the web, because this is really quite, a really well known and renowned gastroenterologist, but he is a systems thinker. And as you know, anything on functional medicine, bite sized is about systems thinking health. He's Emmy award winning for his TV show. He's wrote a great book called Heal your Gut, Save your Brain. And of course, I'm excited because a lot of our practice is spent in understanding our relationship our health, relationship with our human cells, our bacterial cells. And really, how do we as a host keep everything happy so that we have this really happy and healthy body as we go forward? Partha, thank you so much for spending your Saturday morning, wanting to chat to us.

Dr Partha Nandi  01:02

Thanks, Pete, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Peter Williams  01:05

Pleasure So look, can we, as I said to you, you are very visual on you have a TV program. You've written a great book. Your show is Emmy award winning. So really privileged to have you on the show. And I suppose the best thing for us to do is, I forgot that. You know, Associate Professor, Michigan State, aren't you? That's right Yeah, go to Spartans, isn't it? Yeah, I like the college football so yeah, Michigan and Michigan State, I know quite well. So look, I think the best thing is we obviously have an audience that is predominated by people, generally, general public, but interested in systems thinking health. But also we're going to have a lot of clinicians, dietitians, nutritional therapists, functional medicine practitioners, and also sort of general medical doctors listening in. So again, we'll try and sort of keep the flow on that one. But you've got a great story, like everyone we want to hear them the man behind the great expertise. So you've got a lovely story from certainly from your grandparents, that builds into your dad. So can we start there, and then we'll roll into, sort of moving on into sort of gut health, brain relationship,

Dr Partha Nandi  02:26

yeah, so, you know, so, thanks. So Pete, my, my journey into medicine, I think was, was really laid many, many generations before me, my my mom, you know, my mom, I was, I was, I was born in India, and I had spent my first, nearly my first decade there. So, you know, I immigrated to the United States when I was nine. But my my mom would would, you know, cook, cook with my sister and I, and tell, tell us all about our grandfather, my grand. My granddad was a brilliant surgeon and physician in in in the city called Calcutta, India. And what she would tell me was the the service that he would he would provide, meaning that although he was a brilliant physician, he would serve the community in a way that no matter what they had, if they had money, if they had some goods that they could give, and that's how he would take payment for his services. And no matter what your level of income was, he would, he would service the people that were around him, so whatever ailment that they had. So it was inspiring to my sister and I to hear that, and it really laid the foundation. I said, Boy, it'd be nice for me to do something like that. And so that was when, when, you know, I remember when I was four or five years old, I heard that then I had a pretty significant event that happened in my life. So about, I'd say, around six years of age, I had a an event in my life that that changed it forever. So I was diagnosed with a disease called rheumatic heart disease, rheumatic fever. And it was a very perplexing diagnosis, because I had joint pains. I was young, young boy driving my parents completely mad, until one day I I stopped doing anything I was I was having joint pains, and the only thing I loved is and you can, you can understand this better than most of my American audiences. I only loved listening to cricket matches. That's it. I would, I would wake up, you know, in the middle of the night, India, playing some, some, some someplace, maybe Australia, maybe somewhere else. But that's the only thing I was interested in. Well, you know, long story short, I went to a number of doctors, including holistic doctors. Nobody had any idea. And then we, my mom, found a brilliant pediatrician, Dr Chandra shaker, who then it was Christmas Eve. I remember , Christmas Eve, and I've been to so many doctors, I thought, well, here's another one that'll tell me that they have no idea what's going on. But this doctor said he needs to be admitted to the hospital today, and I spent 10 days at that time, you know, I felt it was terror, and the and the doctors diagnosed me with rheumatic heart disease. I was in heart failure. And, you know, probably a few months, if a few months had gone by, I would have probably not be here today. It was, it was that dramatic. I didn't know it at the time, but it was that dramatic. And Dr Chandra Shaker took me from a from a sick child, the one that became well. And I said to myself, you know, with the background that my mom gave me with my granddad, I said, I want to do something like this, like Dr Chandrashekhar, who could really heal people. And so that began my journey into medicine. And one last, I think, very important event that changed the trajectory of of medicine in talking to you and doing what I'm doing. So my when I was ill in the hospital in India, my father he was really a brilliant man, literally Pete. There are three people in the country that could do what he was doing, because he was really high powered man. But during the time when I was ill, he never left my sight. So whenever I turned to my left or my right, he was there. And so that was, he was my he was the example that was set for me for being a first, my first health hero. So then fast forward. I'm a physician. I've, you know, I've been in the United States, you know, you go through probably very similar to where you are. You know, you go through your your secondary school education, high college, graduate from medical school, then I did my specialty training in gastroenterology. It's very fascinating. And I'm practicing medicine when my dad suffers a an unexpected event. It's very, very healthy man, never really had any issues, and he suffers a life altering stroke, a stroke where it left him essentially, you know, bedridden, dependent on on myself and my family to do what he what, everything he needed. And at the time, I was his caregiver, and I became the patient advocate. And when I realized Pete is that despite the fact that I thought I was a good physician and I understand the system, I understood that there was so much I didn't know. And that began my quest of what I do now, which is to become your own health hero, which is that I wanted that no-one faced the fate that my dad did. And secondly, how to be able to advocate for yourself when you're ill. So we started with, we started with being, being doing some advocacy training. And then I met a producer out of Los Angeles who said, you know, Parth, if you could do this in front of a television camera, I think people would would really like it. So we started the DR Nandi show with one television station in the city, in Detroit. Then we syndicated around the world, and we did social and digital media. And we because I understood that it was not enough for me to practice one on one -it was very fulfilling. I still do that, but to be able to do what you're doing, which develop a community of people that say, community of people that say we we need more than than just traditional medical care, because there's a lot we can do to be able to advocate for ourselves and our and our loved ones. And that's to me, the idea about being your own health hero or being your own health advocate to promote good health as the number one goal in your life, not not having the best, you know, surrogates, meaning the best house, the best car, etc. So that's that would lead to my journey, and my my my entire, you know, purpose right now, and the reason why I'm talking to you today,

Peter Williams  08:39

yeah, and I think it's probably why your show has been so successful, isn't it, because when we look at some of the major metrics, I mean, I always remember Dr Patrick hanaway. He was the he was high up on the IFM board. He says to me, Pete, there's a book called healers, extraordinary clinicians at work. Make sure you get it, because it will probably change the way you practice. And of course, this is a book where two researchers went around America and they spoke to 50 different extraordinary healers. So as I say, the book's called healers, extraordinary clinicians at work. And again, if there's any clinicians on listening to this, you should get that book, because it will change the way you view yourself. Because, of course, me and you probably went through our education thinking that understanding the biochemical pathways and understanding which tests we need to go to and what procedure might be the best one is a part of how you heal people. But the reality is also it's the everything else that goes around. It's support, its purpose. It's thinking about how we look after everyone on that side. And I think that's one of the key things that I think comes through on, on on, on the way your show presents you, and how you're trying to help the bigger community. So I think super important. But I think also, I think some of the missed nuances  in clinical care as well. And I think that's something that I think you're trying to get over. Would you say that that's part of how you see it?

Dr Partha Nandi  10:07

Absolutely. Yeah, I think, I think that there's traditional medicine. And I mean, I still practice traditional medicine misses a lot of what patients really need. And I think the the bridging the gap between, you know, what I call functional or Eastern medicine, with Western medicine is where medicine is going to be, and is, and it is for many, many people.

Peter Williams  10:31

Yeah, so can we? Can we move on to where? So I'm interested in, why? Why did you choose to study the gastrointestinal tract. Why was that? Why was that something that you picked as sort of your favorite? Because, again, you could have chose any, any speciality.

Dr Partha Nandi  10:49

It was very it's a good question. And so at the time when I trained, it is a very different specialty than it is now. And the reason why I liked doing gastroenterology is because of the fact in medicine, you know, you there's, there's kind of two tracks. One is surgical, where you're doing cutting and procedures, and one is more cognitive care, which is more of like inter we call internal medicine, and the specialties where you're writing medicine and and more, more diagnostic capabilities. And there are very few specialties that combine the two. When I looked at it, really, there were two cardiology and gastroenterology. So in gastroenterology, you know, you're you're talking to people getting a diagnosis based on their symptoms, and really developing a a long term relationship that was important to me. You know, I still remember the stories of my my grandfather, who who not only treated people, but they had had relationships with the family, the children. I like that. And then I also like the fact that you come in jaundice, with the fever, and I can go in with the with the procedure, and within an hour, I can relieve the jaundice and the fever is gone. I love the fact that I could, I could have that immediate satisfaction of treating someone and they're better, and also have a long term relationship with the combination of medicine and surgical care. Is where I, you know, I landed when I was training. But that was, that was, you know, over two decades ago, medicine has completely changed. What I love about gastroenterology now Pete to me, and I'm biased, as a gastroenterologist, I feel that the the gut is at the center of of health, meaning that if you can really take care of your gut, then you can most certainly take care of many, many disease states, and if a lot of your listeners and viewers are not ill, you can also maintain health and also prevent diseases. That's that's where it's led to. And in gastroenterology, when I, when I trained to what gastroenterology is today, this gastroenterology word could be, is really fantastic and and and I think to me, and this book that I wrote, and you talked about it, heal your gut, save your brain, is really addressing the gut brain connection, and it really goes back to my father and his devastating stroke. Remember, I told you, Pete, that he really didn't have any medical problems. He didn't have traditional risk factors that led him to have a stroke. What? Boy, I didn't understand then, is that, you know, even if you're not ill with gut diseases, your gut may not be in optimal, optimal shape, and we didn't have the either, the knowledge that we do now, when my dad had the stroke and to understand what, what's going on with not just the gut brain, but the gut, and really, other parts of your body, is what's utterly fascinating about about this, this, this organ system that I think every day, people are learning new things about it.

Peter Williams  13:53

So I couldn't agree more. And as I said you, we spend a lot of time dealing with patients who may have gone down a very traditional route. And don't get me wrong, have been incredibly well looked after, investigated, but I sometimes feel as though the question that wasn't asked was, well, given that were more bacteria than human cells, maybe that's a place where we should start. And time and time again, we start to see patterns or pictures that suggest that, okay, at least we're starting to see something here that might be worth following. And it's not just that, is it? It's a question of the bacterial communities, the the I always like to think it from a point of view worth when bacteria move from one place that they should stay to another place where maybe they shouldn't be, we start to see a lot of the problems. And again, that totally links into your gut brain axis. So can we explore that a little bit more? And again, you know, this is, I don't know whether this is new to many people listening. It's probably, you know, I. This stuff's been around probably now for 15 years, 20 years, looking at how, you know, bacteria can speak to the brain and short chain fatty acids and how we make them. So can you give us an overview of of all of that and how you look for that, and give us some examples in clinical practice? Maybe were, were simple examples where you see that playing out,

Dr Partha Nandi  15:22

you know, it's an important question. So in traditional medicine, we we've lagged behind functional medicine, because I think this has been a concept that's been really, really, very, very central to functional medicine. So, so the gut, you know, people think of the gut. We used to think of it as really an isolated system. You know, the gut was there when we were training to digest food, right process. It very sophisticated organ, but just to do one thing, digest food, make sure you get your nutrients and then excrete waste. And that's it. And it could be, it couldn't be farther from the truth and and so what is, what is this? This whole idea behind why the gut is important. So let me just start, for example, with the gut brain axis. So as you mentioned, the bacteria, bacteria, viruses, protozo, fungi. We're talking well over a trillion, trillion organisms that are in our guts, yours and mine, Pete right now. And what we now understand is that the content of that of those of those microorganisms, we understand the bacteria the best, right? Because that's what we can understand. We can we have nomenclature or naming systems. We're able to identify them. But really it's even more sophisticated than that. It's organisms that are not just bacteria, but but other living organisms. And we first got a hint of that, there was a study out of nature, and that really blasted this into not only functional but traditional medicine. And we found out that, for example, kids who play in dirt right? Seemed to be less obese than kids who were not. And so what gives? Who cares if you play in dirt, if you're running around inside versus outside? But it turned out that the microbiome signature, so this trillion member army that's in your intestinal system, was vastly different for those for those kids. And so then the question is, who cares? You know, but we've got bugs. That's great. But these bugs actually do way more than just reside there, right? They process your nutrients, they create products, as Pete mentioned, short chain fatty acids. We know short chain fatty acids are incredibly important. An example, they they produce a neurotransmitter. And I'm sure you've talked about this in your show called serotonin, well over 90 to 95% of the serotonin is produced in your gut. So you may recognize serotonin as the feel good hormone. It's the hormone that when Pete and I woke up this morning, we said, Yeah, we're going to go do this interview. We're going to, you know, live our lives rather than I'm going to sit in my chair and do nothing all day. Imagine that the that the bugs in your system could be actually responsible for that, and how we treat them is going to be important. So not only is it, is it producing products that we need, not only is it giving you short chain fatty acids that make your gut wall strong? And Pete alluded to this, that what happens in the gut is is very important. Remember the gut the between where the gut and and where blood is, so between where poop is and blood, so poop on one side, blood, one side is one cell layer thick, one cell layer thick with two layers of mucus. That's what separates particles of stool from part from your bloodstream. I cannot emphasize that enough and and why is that important? Despite that relatively meager you know barrier, meaning not a very you know strong barrier your gut is incredibly effective in keeping stuff out of your bloodstream that's poop. And so what are the factors that allow for that? Well, a huge part of it is your microbiome signature. So if you then are following the SAD diet, and in this part of the world, we call the SAD diet, the standard American diet, which is in your pepperoni pizza with with the helpingnghel you know, you know, side of fry, french fries and a milkshake, right? Which is, it sounds for many of your audiences. Sounds crazy. But really, people live like this every single day when you, when you blast your intestinal system with that, the bacteria that have been protecting us for, you know, hundreds of 1000s of years have never seen this type of stuff. They've never seen it. They can't thrive there. And so what happens is that you then select out for unfavorable bugs that that thrive on it. And so when you do. That you then start to do something very important, which is start to decay that barrier that you have, the one cell layer thick, not gaping holes where you know, you know, big, big chunks of stool are coming through, but microscopic tears, kind of like little, tiny defects in your cheese cloth, and so they go through the gut, lining into your bloodstream. Again, you say, Well, who cares? Right? What does all this mean? Well, the other thing that your gut does is it has the most sophisticated immune system. It has to, because think of all the things you're putting in your mouth, they're not sterile, and your body has to decide what goes in, what goes out. It's the most sophisticated system you know in the United States. I always, you know, I give the analogy to the to the CIA, the FBI, the the federal government, the local police, everything the equivalent of that in your body is in your gut. So when little particles go through, into that into that bloodstream from your gut, your immune system is activated as it should be. Well, somethingthign is coming Well, if that, if Pete and I do that once a month, you know, once every two months, it's okay. But if that happens every day, then that begins with Pete described right when things are going to places it's not supposed to so then you begin this cascade of inflammation, that cascade of inflammation. Then, if you talk about the gut, brain axis travels to your gut and then break down the blood brain barrier begins inflammation. We now know, for example, Alzheimer's disease, right, one of the biggest killers of the Western world. But not just killers devastating your life. Even before you die, you see hallmarks of inflammation that begin, that begin from the gut and go into the brain and form this neurofibrillary tangles. You see evidence of of a certain signature of the microbiome in the guts of people with Alzheimer's, again and again. It's not just Alzheimer's. You look at Parkinson's disease, you see the hallmarks of Parkinson's disease in the gut wall, same gut wall that of these patients with Parkinson's so and the brain is just 111, area that that this, this involves people with autoimmune disease. So for example, I in gastroenterology treat patients with Crohn's disease, which is a disease where your intestinal system is attacking itself to virtually destroy it. You could talk about diseases like eczema, diseases that that you know involve your your your bones and your joints.

Peter Williams  22:37

Could you just sort of explain that in more detail, because the immune system's not doing the wrong thing in that process. Is it, even though your immune system is is starting to see various parts of your gastrointestinal tract as not self anymore, it's only been directed with what it thinks it's been, what it needs to fight against. So can you explain that in more detail, you know sort of autoimmunity, and you know what it is and why it occurs, because obviously, you know, you see this with rheumatoid you see this with Crohn's. Can you just give us sort of little, sort of simplified version of why your immune system is deciding that there are certain parts of your body that don't look self anymore. Could you just explain the sort of the arena around that?

Dr Partha Nandi  23:28

Yeah, it's relatively it's a relatively complex interaction that happens but simplified. Your immune system is doing its job. It's it's finding things that are abnormal in your blood, right? Abnormal? It's not, you're not supposed to see particles that that, you know, in your food or in your stool that in your blood. So it's, it's doing its job. It's, it's using, for example, phagocytes, which are just things that suck, you know, bad, bad actors or or small things that are that are not supposed to be there and engulf them, but it activates your immune system, because that's what it's supposed to do. So imagine, let's not talk about infection. When you have cancer, one of the biggest, one of the biggest systems that is supposed to protect you from cancer is your immune system. It's it takes rogue cells and then removes them, right? So anything that's not supposed to be there. Your immune system is like your police. It gets rid of it. Now, the second part of the story of autoimmunity is that these folks have a genetic predisposition, meaning that there's something in their genetic in the genetic factors that that lead them to say, Okay, this then leads to Crohn's disease, or This then leads to Alzheimer's, or This then leads to rheumatoid arthritis, because not all of us get all these diseases. So what gives there's there are factors in your genetics that then make you more prone to certain types of diseases. But where it's beginning is where we can make a difference. We can then fortify. By our gut wall. How, by going through your microbiome, to fortify your microbiome, by doing simple things, simple things, the simplest is, of course, with your food, right? I mean, I'm sure Pete's talked about this, just do simple things, like not eating processed foods, trying to make sure that you're not eating simple sugars, trying to make sure you're not eating bad fats, trying to make sure. Also, I have this five pillar system that we talk about, and I write in my book is I talk about purpose driven living as the first pillar, the fact that you hear listening shows that you have purpose and you have a motivation for your health. To me, the second pillar is is food and nutrition, not a diet plan, but food and nutrition. The third one is movement. We know that movement affects all parts of your health, including your gut health. The fourth is community, which is what you're developing here with, with having folks to be in a in a system where they can support each other. And last is spirituality, where people think, you know, when I say spirituality, they say, Dr, Nandi you know, not a religious I said you don't have to be religious to be spiritual, but having spirituality absolutely helps. So with this five pillar system, you can uplift your health, including your gut health, and you can improve your gut microbiome. You can improve the immune system in your gut. You can also change this gut brain axis. So remember the vagus nerve, the last part of how the gut interacts with, for example, other parts of the body is the vagus nerve, is the longest nerve in the body, and it's a direct super highway of signals that go from your gut into your brain, and when you have an ineffective environment in your gut, meaning with the microbiome, with having an immune system that now is in disarray, with not having good gut wall protection, the Vagus nerves nerve then transmits to The brain that things are not, things are not okay to put in a better way. And so your brain then reacts. So all the sayings we have is that, you know, I've got butterflies in my stomach, you know, or the or the like, tells you that the connection is there. And so I think it's critical to understand how this organ can affect different parts of your body and how things, you know, we talk about diet, but you know things like even stress, increasing cortisol, increasing the entire norepinephrine system, can alter your microbiome and alter this, this connection between your gut and your brain, alter your immune system of your gut. So there's a lot to this, this, this gut, gut wall and gi health that we can, we can really control.

Peter Williams  27:48

And I want to come back to you on that, because, as I said to you, the exciting thing about speaking to you is that you're preaching to the converted here, which is great, because, you know, I can think about a patient that I was with on Thursday, who's still a long COVID patient still, we still see the long COVID patients, and the discussion with her was, is this that we still got an ongoing infection, there's a small reservoir of COVID Still, or is this the Afters that you've been left With and time and time again, when we go to testing and we see this sort of long COVID, post COVID, sort of chronic fatigue, like picture, it makes me think again, as you went back to talk about it looks like, you know, a depressed person. And it sort of all fits, doesn't it? Because obviously the serotonin theory of depression has been all but debunked, but they are suggesting that many symptoms of depression are sickness, like behavior, and that has been driven by an over activated immune system, and that's been driven by barriers that have become dysfunctional, as you, as you talked about before, the immune system is responding to things that shouldn't be seen in certain places, and so you get this consistent, ongoing vigilance of the immune system is consistent, ongoing fight and this consistent sickness behavior. So it's really interesting that we're bringing it all back to that, and the importance of keeping good barriers, particularly, as you said to you with Alzheimer's. And I'd love to talk about that more if we said, I mean, maybe it's the terminology rather than anything else. If we just said, 20 years ago, leaky gut, you probably would have, you know, you would have been poo pooed out of out of the room. Where is that now? I mean, again, maybe I like, probably the term increase, increasingly, intestinally impermeable, if you like, maybe is a better way of describing it, is that, is that a standard and a standardized term now in conventional gi

Dr Partha Nandi  29:56

Yeah. So two things I want to talk about. You know, you talked about long COVID. I still see it all the time. I mean, all the time. Pete, in traditional medicine, we're seeing it. And so that's one and the other. I love the comment when I give my talks to traditional medicine colleagues. So, you know, we're in universities, and I say when, when patients came in and talked about leaky gut, the the eye rolls that my colleagues gave and still give, by the way, still give, right? And it's like, oh, okay, we've got, we got one of those. And so, you know, and that they've been vilified for for decades. But now under electron microscopy, we see tiny little basement membrane defects, right? Electron Microscopy. So of course, you know, in traditional medicine, we can't be wrong. I'm saying this with the best intent, we can never be wrong. So now we have a different term, and it's called intestinal permeability. And now we have a, you know, in these the large meetings in gastroenterology that are well attended by 10,000 people, they have often an entire day, yeah, you know, talking about intestinal permeability. So what functional medicine knew about, maybe two decades ago, we have now understood that's so important. And that was what I was talking about. When you have intestinal permeability, you are, you know, opening the gates, the gates to Hades almost, you know, which is being a little dramatic, but, but that's what happens. And when you open the gates that that are not there, and remember, our ancestors did not have these types of disruptors, right? You know you're talking about, you have a, you know, a little coat of ice cream, and you don't understand that the products that are there are absolutely disrupting, not the cell membrane, but actually the the the the coatings above that. So you have these mucus layers that are being destroyed by a cup of ice cream. I mean, you know, our ancestors didn't have that problem. And it's almost as if that we have to be detectives when we eat our food. So I my my son's 1311, my five year old is getting there, but my 1311, year old know to read the labels and know how to look for destroyers of the of the gut, brain, gut barrier. So I think that we have to do a lot, and there's, there's so much there, in our food, in our environment, the you know, you're in London, and anybody who resides in London has no dearth of stress, right? I mean, you're talking about life in general. For the average person that's making it through the day, it is a, it is an onslaught of all kinds of images and environments that stress you. So how? How does that affect the gut the exact problem you're talking about? You live that kind of life without purposeful living and trying to not have spirituality to balance that out. We know spirituality, we know community actually decreases. All of the factors that stress in our modern world gives right? So whether it's social media, whether it's the barrage, and I don't know how it's like in you know, where you're living with with traditional media, and what it's giving it is in the United States, it's unrelenting, and you can imagine the environment we live in now. It's unrelenting pressure of what could happen. So, so I think that, back to your question about the gut, brain barrier and leaky gut is absolutely true. Back going back to long COVID. We now understand, even in traditional medicine, that COVID, SARS, cov, actually disrupts the gut brain barrier in multiple ways. So you change the microbiome dramatically, even things like ....c cells that produce, produce products that are, that are that give you some protection against the bad actors, the bad bugs, they start to decrease the production of those cells. So the question comes from many of my colleagues. Well, well, Dr Nandi then, why isn't everybody affectected with that? So it's, you know, to me, cancer is not a one hit theory, meaning that you just don't have one problem and you get cancer, it shows you a two hit theory, right? You have the proclivity, you have, the the background in your genetics and and who you are as a setup. And then you have an environmental change that changes that. So to me, COVID is the same way. Not everybody it was affected by COVID the same way. But if you have the proclivity to have these problems, and you introduce COVID, you can really have a big cascade. And if you're looking at the wrong place, meaning that if you're not looking at the gut to really, then change how you feel with long COVID, you're going to be you're going to have problems, because you really have to go to the gut and find out. And in the US, we have, you know, some some diagnostic tests to find out what your microbiome signature is. I think I would, I would ask folks I use in the US, I use the biome test to really look at the microbiome signature. It's not perfect, but it really gives, you know, some insight. It into what your microbiome signature is. So you can at least have an idea of of what you can do to change you know, whether it's long COVID, whether it's leaky gut, whether it's looking at autoimmune conditions, where you've been to a myriad of doctors and you're, you know, a concoction of medications without relief. So I think that COVID allows us to understand, I mean, it was a, it was a worldwide tragedy, given that it allowed us to understand so much of how our body and our immune system affects us positively and negatively. And it really helped, you know, it helped scientists around the world to be able to get some tools to be able to help us for you know, things like this in the future, but also to understand people in health, how you uplift their health? Because a lot of people who are healthy, who are suffering, and they often go to people like yourselves, because you go to traditional medicine, they say, well, sorry all your blood tests are negative. I wish you felt as good as your blood test. Have a good day. So

Peter Williams  36:03

question for you, it's probably more sort of clinical this one, what is your what is your thoughts on, on what we are starting to see? I mean, we've just developed a relationship with intuis biotech, so they're the guys in the US who are doing gut ID. So we've got the full microbiome sequencing. So when you do a stool sample for them, they will give you that full microbiome, which is, I mean, kind of amazing to see it. You get this amazing scatter plot that shows what your microbiome looks like, everything, which is super cool. I suppose the question on that, though, I still think maybe you can expand a little bit more. We still don't quite know, do we? We're still guesstimating at certain patterns that we might see, and if we make some clinical decisions on that, it may work and it may not. Where would you say we are with that?

Dr Partha Nandi  36:57

I think you know where we scratch the surface. I would say the equivalent sort of analogy is, imagine the first, maybe the first, but the second generation of automobiles being created, you know, would be where we are with microbiome compared to, let's say, where we are now in in 2025 so we've scratched the surface, but the surfaces is rich indeed, meaning that you know it may be Pete, that eating broccoli every single day may not be the option, may not be the solution for you, you know, you may you may not be. You may not need that that form of bacteria, or that microbiome signature, because you have plenty of that the you know, because big, big, big. You know, 35,000 foot view is that we should eat vegetables, right? We should have fermented foods. That to me, and I don't know what it's like in the UK, but the United States, you're still getting to the top 5% if you just say that,

Peter Williams  37:56

yeah, Partha, you know, it's super interesting what you're saying here. Because we have this, we have this thing where you get individuals who come in who are trying to, I call them, I'm not going to say to biohackers, but they're trying to tweak in sort of something that is insignificant when they're not even at the point where they've Got a, you know, a diversity of foods and colors and richness of that. So to go to your argument, again, they think they're super healthy because they eat broccoli all day. Well, maybe eating broccoli every single day may not be the most, you know, appropriate thing for your microbiome, you know, yeah, okay, it's great. We're getting some cruciferous range there. There are going to be certain bacteria that are going to love it. But if that's the only vegetable that you you're eating, then there might be a risk, a risk with that, because there's quite a lot of nonsense out there isn't there, particularly on social media, which drives me mad, from a point of view of, you know, well, I mean, even to the point where you'll have some reasonably intelligent people saying that don't eat plant foods. They're good, you know, they're designed to kill you. And you're like, Oh, for goodness sake. I mean, so you must, I mean, how do you deal with that in clinical practice? Because you have this,

Dr Partha Nandi  39:10

well, we do, you know. So the first step is to get people to eat vegetables. You know, it's a, it's a very basic world. I mean, you're, you're seeing much more sophisticated people, I'm assuming, because they've already gone for barrier when you're in traditional medicine, the first step is to say, okay, you know, I'd like for you to have a more plant based diet, but then the second and third visit, now that you've gotten your plant based diet, I need for you to have diversity. And here's why, right? Because, etc. And then if we, if we can get we're getting better at the testing, right? We can say, well, you have certain phyla, certain types of species that are missing. Let's, let's change that. And here's the other concept, is that it changes, right? So your microbiome today, Pete, right? Will be very different in certain certain types by January. 26 and then, like everything else in life, you know, you have to adjust accordingly. This is a vibrant living system that then changes with your environment. It also changes, you know, with with your state of mind. And that's the other part. Is that it's not just one, one tool. You don't just have a fork. You may have a spoon, you have may have a knife, you may you may actually have a butter knife, and you may have all kinds of other sophisticated tools. So that what I so that's when I go to my five I think you have to really use all of your tools that may not just include diet. It may include the fact that you get off your couch right and stop watching that that football match, or whatever it is you're doing, or scrolling on this thing all day. You know because you know just because your fingers are moving. So I think when you, when you when you have significant movement, when you actually you can change your microbiome pattern. We now know, right, that the gut motility changes dramatically when you're moving. And what does that have to do with gut health? Well, if you don't have, if you don't have intact gut motility, well, your microbiome signature cannot change. A lot of this, a lot of this, this movement is, is also what, what really enhances gut health, and to be able to make sure that your microbiome signature stays the same, your gut walls is intact, and your immune system. So it's not just a, you know, in the US we call it. It's not a one trick pony and so but to answer your question, we begin with the basics. Because most people have never been taught this. Because I'll still tell you, in US medical schools, this is a fraction, a small fraction, of what's happening. But when I I have medical students that that rotate with me, and I give lectures to medical students, they are incredibly interested in this. The new generation of physicians that are coming are incredibly interested in how to really prevent these diseases. They're not just, you know, where medicine is, is very reactive in most of the world. You know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. That's the saying. Well, a lot of these doctors don't want that. They want to be able to prevent it. So I think, I think the future is bright. We're scratching the surface. But I think, you know, with folks like yourself and and patients demanding more, despite the fact that traditional medicine is not advocating for it. Patients are advocating for it by the drugs, because they realize we're failing them. If everybody felt great, they would, you would, you would not be having folks come to you. But we're failing on traditional medicine. So patients are driving this, and economics are driving this as well.

Peter Williams  42:37

Let me try and grab some of your expertise. Obviously, the book, heal your gut, save your brain. Can we dig into gut brain connections? Can we dig into and I know we've talked about, you need to start eating plant foods. And you know there are groups out there, like Keto groups, and you know various low carb groups, which, again, you know each to their own. But you know, if we're talking about general health, it's still, for me, we always start and again, obviously, if we have a patient, it's always an n of one, and there might be some specifics about why you need to do X, Y and Z. But ultimately, if you've got a relatively healthy patient, then the literature determines that something like a really diverse, rich plant food diet, like a Mediterranean diet, would be a really good place to start before you get into any diagnostics. Could we get some of your expertise about some of the strategies that you believe are super important from the point of view of gut health, nutrition, brain health that you would always look to recommend?

Dr Partha Nandi  43:37

I know it's a great question, so it's always individualized, but in general, I think what I do is I really, I really follow the five step diet. So first thing I do, because people expect that, is with food. So I don't really prescribe. I do agree with you. I think the best quote, unquote, diet that we have is the Mediterranean diet. It's got the best evidence to show longevity, gut health, and I think even brain health. So if people want a diet, I say the Mediterranean diet, you know, is the best and and so but, but barring that, what I tell them is that I want you to eat what you enjoy. Because the moment we give prescriptions, and I really go into detail about what what they what they enjoy eating, and I try to find within that group of diverse, fiber, rich, fruits and veggies. Fruits and vegetables. I like whole grains. And we have to let people know about that. They can have lean proteins. They can, you know, for fish and fish and in this country, fish and chicken. And I try to avoid red meat, because the way it's, you know, how it's processed and raised in this country, but I think worldwide, if you have, you know, grass fed,  people you know that are raising cattle and pasture, I think you can, you can have that in moderation. So I think that that's not 100% off the table for in the world I live in, I I try to avoid it, and I ask my patients to

Peter Williams  45:00

avoid. Is there a reason for that path? Is that because of the saturated well, okay, we're talking maybe the sort of the quality of the of the animal husband, husbandry. But are you concerned about something like some of the metabolites like TMAO, or, you know, just the levels of saturated fats that would be in those with those meats

Dr Partha Nandi  45:20

those meat, absolutely, absolutely, but, you know, there's, but there's evidence that shows that, if you have, you know that, that you have these, you know, lean, even lean cuts of meat in in the the animals that are raised and and processed properly. I think there's some benefits there, but, you know, but, but absolutely eating, you know, this, this red meat, rich diet every single day, saturated fat and and our epidemic of cardiac and heart disease, you know, is unbelievable. SO and SO. Then, in order, in addition that healthy fats, right? We, we have, we have vilified fats throughout our the history of this country's nutrition. So we try to put healthy fats in their diet. I really, really emphasize fermented foods, right? So I say every culture has got them, whatever your culture is. So kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi, if you can, if you can, you know, tolerate dairy, then yogurt. And you really, I think I start with that, then i i Then emphasize hydration. Because, you know, we don't talk about it enough. In our nation, I think we are constantly dehydrated. And if you are drinking something, it's it's usually something that may actually not hydrate you at all. There's a plethora of drinks, energy drinks, etc. So I talk about, in general, everybody's individualized. But, you know, aim for eight glasses of water, 64 ounces in our country, and based on your activity level, on climate, absolutely reduce your process sugars and foods. And I, and I'm very cognizant of economic demand. So, you know, it's easy for someone, for me to say, because I, I'm, I'm able to eat whatever I want, but, you know, in certain socio economic, you know, certain socio economic status they may not be able to avoid have, you know, eating the best fresh fruits and vegetables. I try to ask them to avoid processed foods. And in our country, I don't know what it's like in the UK, but you know, frozen foods, that are vegetables, that are that are picked and flash frozen are relatively inexpensive. So I ask them to do that instead of because, you know, most of the processed, highly processed foods are cheaper and simple sugar. So I let them know to reduce that. Then I really go into the stress and how to manage chronic stress. I start it's difficult to do everything in one time, but I start to let them know how to do simple breathing exercises, even things like in yoga, people are very intimidated by it, because, you know, in our nation, yogas is, is, it is, is associated with very difficult poses that you know people can't, you know, I've got, You know, somebody six foot two, 250 pound man. You know, he's like, I can't do yoga, Doc, but you know, so I try to introduce the ideas increase regular physical activity. Just, you know, if I can get 150 minutes, you know, a week, it'll be very effective. And Go

Peter Williams  48:17

ahead, please be back to the question again, is that I think sometimes people want the golden nugget. And the reality is, is that regardless of how you I think, there's a I think, and maybe COVID drove this, but certainly, in certainly a lot of what our practice is, which is cardio, metabolic, it's the sort of early stage dementia pictures we get a lot of people who are very, very anti the traditional guidelines and and I think it's probably brought on by COVID. There's this push with regards to you go and see your doctor, always going to do is throw medications at you. And I sort of get that, but I also get completely the opposite. I get that from a point of view of the biases, but it's quite disturbing in many ways, you know, I think about, you know, we see a lot of keto people coming in and, you know, I'm like, Listen, your your LDL is at 250 here, you know, and you've got a family history of cardiovascular disease, you really do need to do something about this? No, no, I don't need to know having a high cholesterol is good. So I'm more and more disturbed about what is being put out on social media because it influences a lot of people, and I think I also want to pick on because I think what you're doing is that we have to be able to bring difficult concepts in medicine to really simple strategies, and what you're saying about the breathing is taking a very complex area of allowing your brain to understand that the outside world maybe isn't as bad as you see it. And by doing this deep breathing, you're stimulating vagal tone, which means that you're less fighting stress at. The sort of fight or flight, and trying to create that rest and digest. And I will go, I can think about so many patients where we see, and you must see this all the time, where the I believe that part of why they have gastrointestinal dysfunction or disorders is because they're stressed, and they never get that capacity to truly have rest and digest because they're always in fight or flight. Is that what you see, oh,

Dr Partha Nandi  50:31

100% and I think that it's, it's just a global crisis, and you talked about social media, you know, there, there, there are no there are no rules. There's no there are no guardrails, because all it is is, is a form. It's a worldwide. I don't know if you ever watch a comedian named Chappelle. Dave Chappelle, Dave Chappelle, yeah, and you know he, he has an analogy. It's really funny. He is equates the social media going into an adult entertainment store where or adult entertainment mall where every in every corner, somebody is is grabbing your attention with anything. And so my point is that you know, anything that's eye catching and then grabs your attention is really grabbing the attention of our patients. And it's a, it's a it's a startling symptom of our our including, including me, of our lack of education. So it's a worldwide, I think it's a sign of what we don't know. Because if you don't know very much, if you are not, if we as a society are not educating our children on basic principles of biology, then you are basically ready to accept any mistruths that people give you. So that's why you're you're prone to that. But I think one thing about about stress, I think the the other portion that that social media, all the distractions, is that we have not prioritized sleep. It's one of the biggest things I talk about, is quality sleep is incredibly important as restoration for your gut health and the rest of your body. So even if you can't do the eight hours, at least six there are patients of mine who are doing four hours constantly. Pete, I also talk about supplements. I think that supplements are not a bad thing. I like prebiotics and probiotics, you know. I think Omega three acids, omega three fatty acids are can be beneficial. You should consult, of course, with I said, you know, don't just do it and read some, some, you know, blog somewhere, and just start getting I also think that staying connected and engaged is important. I think being isolated, which in Western society less so than Eastern society, where my, what my beginnings were, you know, you know, when we I remember in India, and I'm sure you may have Indian friends, and I know in the UK, the Indian diaspora is strong, but you know, our celebrations are not in homes. They're everywhere. So there are celebrations like holy like Diwali, where the entire community is there and they're dancing. And that's an example. And if you see that in most of the Eastern world, where community is so important, you know, in the Western world, and I think there's absolute strengths in that independence is worshiped, right to the point where we're isolated. So I really talk to people about being connected, engaged, get a partner in this. When you're doing these activities, it's hard to do it alone. I talk about mindful eating. So often people are watching and I see you've got an NBA basketball shirt, you know, people watching the game, and they're just mindlessly eating. It is a priority to be mindful when you eat even things, even simple things like chewing your food right, giving the signals to your brain about satiety. It's simple things that really are mind blowingly complex and then and then really having regular follow ups. It's not just you have you see me once, Bill and then you never see me again because you got it. I think incorporating these practical tips are really helpful for my patients to be able to understand what to do. So it's not a one trick pony, as I say. It's not just diet, but it's a a variety of things that in in when taken together, are powerful. I tell my kids, you know, they all know, if you had them on right now, Pete my kids and ask them, what's Dad's favorite superhero? You know, because there's many superheroes, it would not be Superman. It would not be Spider Man. It's always be Batman. And I always give my the story to my kids that Batman is an ordinary man, right? He's an ordinary man. He's, fit and he works out, but he's got a tool belt, and he's got weapons that he uses to really fight crime. I call I think that the tools we give with the five pillar method is very similar, that all of us don't have to be extraordinary, right? We don't have to be marathon runners or doing these incredible things that. You see, you know on social and digital media, you just have to be able to adhere some principles, and in your tool belt of health, you can be a health superhero. It is not impossible. Anybody can do it. And that's the message we're giving.

Peter Williams  55:13

Let me ask you a question. Then, because you're answering everything, I sort of that I've scripted down here, and given that we have these sort of five pillars, do you have a favorite or a couple of favorite patient stories were the gut changes that you did led to significant changes in their health, maybe their brain, etc, you must have a few real brilliant ones where some kind of simple changes, or more complex changes, really was, was, was life changing?

Dr Partha Nandi  55:48

Oh, yeah, I'll tell you one with the young woman with Crohn's. The reason why Crohn's is such a devastating disease, to me is that it affects young people. This is a woman who was about 30 years of age, and she was, you know, pursuing a career, trying to pursue a career, and getting an MBA and going into finances, but she was struggling with the fact that her her disease was was essentially taking over her life, meaning that, you know, she couldn't have relationships, she couldn't go to school, She couldn't function. She's going to the bathroom, having abdominal pain, brain fog constantly. And so she, she'd seen a plethora of physicians. She She watched our television show and and then, because she saw me there, she she consulted with me, and what, what I, what I asked her to do was essentially just start from the basics, right? I mean, you know, with Crohn's disease, you have to take some medicines from the Western world. It's not, you're not going to be able to treat it just alone with using the techniques that I did. But what we started with was just using the basic principles of the of the five pillar method. For her, you know, the diet was the most important. But, you know, using simple breathing exercises, using some supplements, within within six months, her symptoms were completely controlled, meaning that she would literally wake up at night, Pete with five or six bowel movements, bloody bowel movements, and she was on the road to basically having her entire colon taken out so she would have a colectomy, which in itself is a big surgery, but then the consequence of a 30 year old having this, and then all of the, all of the the repercussions for personal lives, etc. So within six months, she was literally on one medication and not waking up at night, having one bowel movement a day, and thriving. And to this day, you know, she's now, this is several years later. She's finished her MBA, she's she's a successful person. And to me, it's the life altering changes that you can make, not just with their disease, but with the rest of the of a person's life. That's inspiring to me, that you can make simple changes that we talked about and really uplift people's people's entire lives, not just their medical lives, but, you know, their personal health, their career goals. So that's that's what inspires me, that every single day, just like me, it's a different story. But, you know, mine was more dramatic. I had heart failure, and in comes a physician and really understood what I needed and changed it. And that's what we you know, you do this every day, and I do this, and that's what drives us to be able to get up and go. And I fully recognize that I'm also taking part in the same prescriptions that I'm giving right? It's purpose driven living. I understand that whatever I'm doing, I'm hopefully changing lives right, and then doing all the things that I'm doing when I when I'm when I'm playing with my kids. It's, it's, it's very intentional, it's mindful. So I think, you know, I feel like I'm a patient as much as a practitioner, and it's incredible the rewards that you can get if you do that.

Peter Williams  59:08

And what I love about that story, it's the what I like to say is that, you know, people say, oh, you know, functional medicine, and whatever you want to call it, I just say, Well, okay, in my opinion, what I'd like to give you is probably the best medicine. And usually, as you're saying, it's usually a mixture of both. This is a woman who who absolutely needed some really good conventional medications to help her. And there may be points in the future where, for some however, what reason she has an occasional flare, maybe, and then she might have to have to have some, some sort of short dose of certain medications for a period of time. But think what you're saying, that is, what you've done is that you've changed the progression of where this disease was going, and ultimately changed the pathway where her life may have gone if you hadn't done all of that. I think that's

Dr Partha Nandi  1:00:01

and the root cause you're attributing to the Achieving the root cause, because we don't have the technology to find out, you know, where in our microbiome and where in our genetics, but you're doing is you're going back the root cause with with inciting this disease, and going and and turning off the source of the fire while fighting the blaze you need, you need the all the tools of the fire department to pit out the Blaze, but you also need to get back to where the fire started. And that's what we done with this young lady.

Peter Williams  1:00:33

It's a great analogy. And can we talk about, sort of push your lightning round at you here? So we got good, sort of almost like gut health myth busting and perfect. Are you okay for time? I know we're well over the hour, because it just seems to have gone very quickly. I just

Dr Partha Nandi  1:00:48

have a couple of minutes. But okay,

Peter Williams  1:00:50

let me give you, let me give you a couple of minutes. Then sort of, do you need a probiotic every day? Generally, yes. Okay. Would you say that gut health doesn't affect mental health, or you say absolutely does

Dr Partha Nandi  1:01:04

Absolutely, without a doubt. Okay?

Peter Williams  1:01:07

And would you say that excess sugar is the enemy of well, I've got brain function down here, but I'm going to say pretty much systemic health. I

Dr Partha Nandi  1:01:17

agree.

Peter Williams  1:01:19

Where do you think we're going? Where do you think the Where do you think research is going in this field? Where do you perceive the next 10 years?

Dr Partha Nandi  1:01:28

I think that medicine will be unrecognizable in a decade in how we approach it and the preventative techniques. I think that gut will be a huge part of it, because no matter what part of the world you go into, every single society, seeing how gut health is affecting us, I think that'll be the center of it. I think prevention will be a critical key. And I think that throughout the throughout the planet, we're going to, we're going to try to, you know, incentivize and motivate practitioners to prevent rather than just be reactive.

Peter Williams  1:01:59

So on a question on that. Do you believe the way we're treating the planet is part of because I almost look at we're losing the diversity of plant foods in the planet, and we're losing the diversity of microbial species within the gut. Do you think they're hugely connected?

Dr Partha Nandi  1:02:14

Absolutely. You know, in my when I was a kid, it's, I'm a part in part of India, it's called Bengal and then Bengalis have this, have this tale they talk about is a guy named Kali dash Who is screaming and hurling insults and and talking nonsense to people as he's cutting off the branch that he is standing on or sitting on so He's in a tree yelling and screaming at people, look at me, and he's cutting off the branch that he's that he's sitting on, I think that we with, with with the environment, with the world, with with how we treat soil, right? I mean, we're depleting nutrients so absolutely, and if we, if we don't make a change, very soon, there's going to be a point where, no matter what we do, it's not going to be helpful and but I think, I think that points not reached yet, but absolutely how we treat the planet and how we treat ourselves is so critically important in this. And you know, the environment, sometimes you need a catharsis of things like this before you reach an equilibrium and reach a better state. I'm hoping that's where we're in

Peter Williams  1:03:26

right now. And I'm gonna ask you one more question to finish, because I really appreciate what's next for you over the next couple of years, another book, another TV, TV series, because I'm

Dr Partha Nandi  1:03:34

writing my my next book, and it's really talking about the workplace, because we spent a lot of time in the work and, and really, how to, you know, increase, increase your productivity, in your health and your wellness while being successful at work and, and I really want to address address that, because most of us spend so many of our waking hours at work, and we tend to focus on wellness after that. And how about making it integral part of your life throughout the day, perfect. I think

Peter Williams  1:04:03

that's a brilliant place to end. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I think everyone will get a lot out of this podcast, and obviously I've been super excited to have you on. So thank you so much.

Dr Partha Nandi  1:04:13

Thanks for having me. You're very easy to talk to, and thanks for all the work you're doing for the planet. You.