The Fear Factor - How Boundaries Shape your Health with Richard Moat

Why do we struggle to say 'no'? In this powerful episode, I am joined by my good friend and emotional wellness expert Richard Moat. During our conversation we unpack the psychology of boundaries, revealing how our fears and inherited traumas impact our physical and mental health. 

Importantly we talk about how to reclaim your power and live authentically by learning transformative techniques to express yourself, set healthy boundaries, and break generational patterns.

A conversation with Rich is always a fascinating one and this one is no exception. 

I hope you enjoy it!

Links mentioned in this episode:

RichardMoat.com 

Instagram  

"The Body Keeps The Score" By Bessel Van Der Kolk  

"It Didn't Start with You" by Mark Wolynn 

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Emotional wellness, boundaries, fear response, people pleasing, emotional suppression, role models, emotional expression, transgenerational trauma, epigenetics, stress response, physiological impact, emotional health, fear of consequences, emotional back catalog, role model behavior.

SPEAKERS

Peter Williams, Richard Moat

Peter Williams  00:00

Let's go and welcome to functional medicine. Bite Sized, I get to chat to my old buddy Rich today. You might have heard Rich on some old podcasts, but he's very, very busy man. I never get the chance to get too much time with him these days, but when we were talking a few weeks back, we decided that we just have to get him on because he's obviously got so many pearls of wisdoms. And just to let you know that Rich has been a very important person in my life, because he's been the guy who I've been mentored by from a point of view of psychological well being for the last 25 years, and I think you've done a pretty good job on a pretty crazy, crazy camp mate, so I appreciate that. So look again. What we decided to do on this one is that obviously emotional wellness is such a big subject. And you know, a lot of the way we view the outside world determines how our physiology works. And I mean, rich can maybe, sort of, obviously, that's the reason why we work together, because there are various aspects of that emotional wellness that me and my group are neither trained to be able to help with or understand it that fully, and that's where a lot of the times, we bring Rich in. But it's just as I say, he's got so much wealth of experience. He's one of the kingpins in this area, and so any chance to just throw some questions or add in I think we should do, and a lot of the subjects are off, what patients or people who either listen to the podcast or followers I've come in with and Rich, welcome first.

Richard Moat  01:38

How you doing? Thank you very much. I'm doing very well. Thank you. Thank you for asking me and making this possible. I do enjoy our conversations when we have them.

Peter Williams  01:47

He nearly stepped into an impression. Now, Richard, I just make sure you don't do that. Okay, so, so I think we've got some I've got two main ones today, which I know is gonna I mean, there are so many rabbit holes here, and this was actually from Tara, and I think it's a good place to start, because Tara came in and said that, you know, she always suffers, I think, personally and professionally, from a lack of boundaries. And she's proud of to say, I suffer from a lack of boundaries, and personal profession, professional, and she's always trying to do it all. And in part of that, she says, You know, I think I'm a people pleaser. Boundaries rich. I think it's I think we can all recognize that having boundaries, or lack of them has quite major consequences. So can we talk about that? And can we talk about what you see? Because I think we can all experience, you know, I think saying no and saying yes is, you know, you know, again, we don't want to, we don't hurt anyone's feelings, but actually, sometimes we suffer as the consequence of saying yes or no. But in your sort of professional experience, can you give us an understanding of lack of boundaries, what it may do psychologically, but also emotionally and obviously, its impact on the body and what can we do? What would be the tips that you would give? How would you work a How would you work a patient through trying to put some strategies together for helping them with boundaries.

Richard Moat  03:28

Okay, should I just dive into one of those and we'll jump in, buddy. We'll cover everything. Okay, so you're right. Boundaries is an issue for many, many people. It's it's not so much having them, it's more communicating and enforcing them. And this goes way, way back to when we were growing up, probably not having very good role models for boundaries. And it's, it's a misunderstood subject a lot of the time, because a boundary can be something as simple as, hey, look, that's not acceptable. Don't do that again. And we're not very good at speaking our truth. So one of the problems that we have into adulthood is being honest about whether or not somebody else's behavior is acceptable, or in another parlance, whether or not that behavior has violated one of our boundaries. But it's complicated by the fact that if we haven't identified exactly what our boundaries are, a lot of the time a boundary can be violated, but we don't actually realize it's been violated until after the event, and then we're playing catch up, or we're in shock, or we've been emotionally moved because of the violation. We weren't prepared for it. We didn't expect it. It happens, and then we find ourselves trying to cope with the impact of the boundary violation. And then for a lot of us, what we'll decide to do is, well, it's gone now it's happened. I can't revisit it. I can't go back to it. So that doesn't help either. And let's just throw in, for good measure, a lack of good role models for boundaries. This is a sweeping generalization, but it's very common, certainly with the clients that I work with. Haven't had a good example of what it is to communicate boundaries, or even have healthy boundaries. And so when we grow up in an environment, but also in a society that doesn't necessarily promote or endorse or encourage having healthy boundaries, well we're sort of shooting in the dark when it comes to if someone's approaching a boundary, what do we do, or what do we say? If someone's just crossed a boundary, what do I do, or what do I say? So the absence of role models when we're younger, the absence of being encouraged to talk in terms of boundaries, is missing, and then it's having strategies for Alright, once you have communicated your boundary, if someone has violated it, for example, what do you do if they violate it again? That's a separate issue altogether.

Peter Williams  06:36

So Rich, can I? Can I jump in? Because obviously one of the key things is getting people to be I'm going to use the word and maybe I'm misinterpreted, but you've got to be brave enough to be at that point to say, I'm going to have to stick to these boundaries. So I look at this and I think either way. So what you said again is that sometimes the boundary is violated, and it's easier to continue to let it be violated than actually going that's unacceptable. So, you know, it's almost I you can understand why you don't do it and it continues. Because, actually, it's easier to continue being violated than actually to stop it. You gotta be pretty brave. I think, to go now this is I need to make a change here. I can't just keep on going. And then you have to for my opinion, because it obviously is some of the stuff that we worked on years ago, is that I almost feel as as you said to me, is that you're going to have to expect that people might not like it when you come back and say, No, you know that's that's not acceptable. Think about our I can think about our cancelation policy would be one where you know you either have a cancelationicy po, and everyone is aware of that cancelation policy, and they're aware that you know if you, if you miss us or don't, don't contact us, as in a certain time, you're going to need to pay for our time, because that was time set away for you. And that's a really strict boundary that we we stick to we never used to, but I think again, but, yeah, we had to be brave to be able to put that in and accept that there are consequences to other people being unhappy about boundaries. So, so how do you, how do you take them through that process? Is it first making them aware that well, or is it that they've got to want to make the changes?

Richard Moat  08:29

Okay? So the first place to start would be where you started with on your comment, you used the word courage, the reason that we struggle to enforce and communicate our boundaries, apart from what I've said about role models and practice and society, the number one reason is we are afraid of the consequences of communicating and enforcing the boundaries. That is the number one reason why we don't why we're so poor at it, the fear of the consequences of enforcing our boundaries, and it links nicely into this point about people pleasing. You know, Tara talked about in her question, you said believing she's a people pleaser? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Well, one of the reasons that people evolve as people pleasers. I mean, people pleasing is more of a tendency than an identity, so I'd like to make that distinction. Yes, people pleasing is a behavior as opposed to an identity. So one of the reasons we are so keen on pleasing other people and incurring their approval or avoiding their unfavorable judgment. That type of thing is because we don't like how it makes us feel to feel disapproved of or to feel judged or to believe that we. Might have upset or hurt someone, scares the living daylights out of most of us. So what we do is we set our life up in ways that we can minimize as far as possible, the likelihood of upsetting anybody else, and what's the best way to make sure or what's the best way to reduce the likelihood of ever upsetting anybody? Please them. Just say yes, acquiesce. Fall in line. Do as you've been asked, without reproach, without question, because we believe that if we do that, then the other person will like us, will approve of us, will validate us, they won't reject us, they won't abandon us. Hopefully they'll talk nicely about us. So we're driven this behavior, this people pleasing behavior, and therefore the absence of communicating and enforcing our boundaries is driven by the fear of what will happen if we do, we don't want to take the risk of finding out. So we tend not to grasp the nettle, as it were, in terms of a subject. So to answer your question, where I start with my clients and with anybody who wants to listen, is to understand there's a very good reason why we're not very good at boundaries, apart from the fact that maybe we haven't articulated them and we haven't had many good role models, and society doesn't encourage us. It's because of the fear of what will happen if we do. And let's play this back on to the example you gave about your cancelation policy. Okay, that's a very clear, binary boundary. If you don't let us know that you're canceling within whatever it is, 2448 hours, there will be a charge. There's the boundary in place, very clear, black and white, legally binding. But what was it that used to make it difficult for you to then enforce that when someone didn't actually ring up and cancel within the required amount of time, What stopped you from enforcing it? Do you

Peter Williams  12:12

remember? I can't remember. I think it's a difficult one, because there are genuine reasons why people can't make it. And I think on that, you have to make a judgment call with regards to, you know, example, they were in a car crash, you know, suddenly their son was in hospital and stuff like that. But this, you sort of feel the ones that may be on are playing with you a little bit aren't probably that serious about coming to see you in the first place. And I think it's because, as I said to you, there becomes more and more almost like, like, of a suffering, of a burden from, you know, are they? Aren't they? You know, are they? Are they messing us around, etc, you know, our policies very clear. So why don't they get it, that sort of stuff? And there comes a point where, you know, I think, as I said to you, the I think the risk of doing nothing can not enforcing that boundary seem to be almost like a safer option than not enforcing it at all. So, you know, I think, as I what I find quite interesting about boundaries. I suspect all of this is bird has a sort of ancestral survival mechanism in genetically predetermined, ie, you want to stay with the pack because the pack gives you safety, and it probably keeps You alive Longer. So I think there is a component probably of that in this. But also, as I said to you, there is a point where the lack of enforcement in boundary becomes much more of a negative and much more of a consistent energy drain. And there comes a point where you've got to make a decision about, you know, you know, this is becoming too much of a burden for me, and I would prefer to go into the fear of the unknown then stay as we are. So I think that I don't think my any of my decisions, and as I said to you, there's most of the time that I've come back to you for help. It's been around the fear of me saying to people what I've needed to say to them, but I think what you've allowed me to do is put it into perspective over all these years, to say, well, here's the consequences if you do, and you know, and here's what you need to understand if you don't. And I think for me, as I said to you, I'm, I mean, I I'm good on I'm good from the point of view of, you know, everyone likes people to like them, but I'm okay if I say something to someone and they don't like what I've got to say, because, as you've taught me, that's just their view on world. It's got nothing to do with me. You know, all I've done is enforce a boundary. And I think that's been a brilliant work that me and you've been able to do is that you you'd be able to sort of say. Separate it away from emotionality and acceptance and put it into really what it is. And that's been incredibly helpful on that side. And it comes down to fear. Everything that we seem to talk about when we have a conversation is about, well, what is the fear of the unknown? So again, I think fear is, you know, as I think, is an evolutionary mechanism. It keeps us safe. It's telling us that maybe this situation isn't, maybe as it should. But again, what is interesting to me, and I think interesting to all of this, and I think why we're on the conversation, is because there comes a point where this wears people's systems down. They spend so much energy, and so much nervous energy, emotional energy, tied up to not enforcing boundaries, fearing about what you know, what might happen, and what might happen is that literally burn themselves out. And that's obviously why we've always come to you, because there's a component, if you like, the umbrella of Well, why is this person sick, and what are the primary drivers? And for a lot of them, it's the question of the fear of the outside world, how their brain is interpreting what is, what is going on in the world. And that's why it's such a crucial factor, that I believe that, you know, every single individual should have the opportunity to download or discuss with someone, whether that is professional or someone close that they trust. You know what's going on, and you know, what should I do? So can we expand on fear a bit more?

Richard Moat  16:32

Yeah. I mean, you've done a good job already of expanding on it, because it really is at the heart of any behavior that we display that doesn't serve us, any behavior that we display that doesn't serve us, it's likely to be because we are afraid of behaving differently. So the biggest problem, as far as I'm concerned, is not the fear itself, because fear is a natural response, as we know. We've got fight, flight, we've got fawn we've even got fixate now, haven't we, so we've got lots and lots of mechanisms internally to help us survive. It's about survival. Ultimately, yes, if there's a threat to my survival, I need to know that I can either run away, I can stay and fight, I can back down and acquiesce and still stay alive. But ultimately, it's the it's when we allow fear to stop us doing something that's in our best interests that's the problem. So we don't need to make so much fear the enemy, and obviously we're not making it the enemy. I just want to get some perspective on the fact that as long as we are well practiced, this is unfortunate, but many of us are, as long as we're well practiced at doing fear, fear will find its way into every crevice of our lives, because it's a pattern. It's a it's a way of responding Yes, crikey, we talk about the stress response, for example, it's as good as saying the fear response, the fear of what will happen if I do so, then it's a bit like we have a conversation with ourselves, a very quick conversation that says, okay, there could be a threat if we do this. Do you want to give it a go? So what do you mean about the threat? Well, I don't know exactly what the threat will be, but it won't be great. So you say it won't be great? Yeah, it won't be great. Well, in that case, I don't want to give it a thanks very much. And we're off. We haven't, and that all happens in a heartbeat, so we haven't even considered what will happen if I do behave, despite feeling afraid about the consequences. And here's what is true, I think 99.9% of the time, and that is that if we behave in a way that we assume or believe is the best way for us to behave, even if we're afraid the sky will not fall in and the ground will not open up and swallow us whole, and we will survive. We're designed to survive, for heaven's sake, we will survive if we do not let the fear stop us from whatever it might be, expressing our truth, communicating our boundaries, saying no when we want to say no, instead of saying yes, revealing How we really feel about something, we will survive whatever happens as a result. Now, the feedback that we get when we behave in a manner that we were afraid of behaving reprograms, or, if you like, sits in our cellular makeup. So to have an experience. Experience of being honest and enforcing a boundary, and for everything to be okay or what we feared not to happen, then all of a sudden, we've got a reference for the fact that it might actually be safe to be honest, express my boundaries, communicate what my truth is. So the more experiences we have of being honest, communicating our boundaries, saying no, when we mean No, whatever it might be, all of these help our cellular memory re sort of shape itself to understand that actually you know what I can speak the truth and it will be okay, because I've got all of these references from previously when it was okay and the sky didn't fall in and the ground didn't swallow me whole. And that's when we can start to shift our relationship to these behaviors of speaking the truth and forcing our boundaries, because it's a behavior thing, but driven by emotion.

Peter Williams  21:04

Yeah, that says several things to me. I think number one is that I think the more we the more our brain is wired to the fear response, the more the neural networks are going to be wired to fear. And so, as you know, because me and you have worked on me for Carter, it's coming up nearly three decade three, three decades, right? I think what we're saying here, isn't it? It's a little bit like anything that you do. It's, it's a retraining process, and it's a step by step process, and so you've got to Rewi, rewire those neural networks so you need practice. That means that, you know, you might not get it right all the time. And I can go for me, and there are still, there are still times where I don't set the boundary. But I can tell you, having become more and more comfortable with I say it's interesting, isn't it, because I don't know whether it's a bit of age as a bit of age as well creeping in, but you're just much more comfortable with saying no. And I think that's probably, you know, probably age because you know you want to spend your time wisely. But I think secondly is that you've had enough experience of being okay about saying no. And it's not that you don't get, I think, is it? It's not so much saying no, but it's getting used to being comfortable that some people might not like it, and that's okay.

Richard Moat  22:33

But, yeah, sorry, please continue.

Peter Williams  22:36

Well, that that's I'm saying it's okay because you're okay with that decision. But you know, I think I'm going to give anyone advice, and we're probably talking about Tara here, is that you have to start with the small steps. It's not something you're going to be comfortable with in a few months. You know, it's taken me years to get to this point where, you know, it's not that I don't have an emotional response, but the boundary. Boundary enforcement is one which I know I feel much more comfortable with, and my physiology is much more comfortable, which I don't waste anywhere near the amount of energy that I used to. So, you know, I think this is all tied in with, you know, with stress and burnout, and I think a lot of that is that we spend so much emotional energy on the fear response about, well, well, you know, what happens if I do and that lack of reinforcement on boundaries so that, I mean, that's my experience of it. What is that? What is the guidance that you give people for you, if we're trying to give them some tips. I mean, obviously I just given a descriptive of what I felt worked for me. What would be, obviously, what would be your simple tips to think about, because it's not, it's not an easy thing to do. And I think you always said to me, nothing worthwhile is ever easy, and there are always consequences to, you know, shifting the needle, it's just a question whether you want to shift that needle to a different place.

Richard Moat  24:09

Yeah, um, so I'd start off by saying one of the best things we can all do, regardless of whether it's a boundary thing or not, is to first of all admit what the truth is. And in this example, what we're talking about the truth is that we're afraid of what will happen if we communicate and enforce our boundaries. So we need to be okay with and not resist the fact that we're afraid of it. That will be a good start, because that's being honest, right? I'm afraid of what will happen if I tell you I don't want to accept your invite to dinner, for example. Yeah, that'd be a good start, because that allows us to get used to the truth, but also it gives us the opportunity to express the truth, even if. Not expressing it to anyone in particular. We're articulating the truth, which means we're not hiding it, we're not burying it, we're not denying it, we're not pretending. We're actually saying, Yeah, do you know what? Yeah, it scares the life out of me. What might happen if I do say no and I yeah, I don't want to take the chance. Thank you very much. So that would be a good start. Let's acknowledge what the truth is. The

Peter Williams  25:26

next thing I would so, if you're with your with your people, that you see again what's what's great about you is that you seem you look after, or have looked after, some of the most famous athletes in the world, and some very famous business people as well. So do you see the same traits in everyone across the board, or is it that you see specific traits in those people, and that's part of why they got to where they are?

Richard Moat  25:58

Yes, there are different categories of individuals. I think most people will be familiar with, you know, these personality profiles that determine where you sit on some sort of wheel or some sort of graph. We've got the introverts, the extroverts. We've got the those who are very much into thinking and those who are into feeling. And there are patterns that emerge. Can we

Peter Williams  26:22

go into them then? Because, again, I think what we'll what I think you're going to end up doing here, is allowing people who are listening in to go, Yeah, that's me. That sounds like me. That would be really helpful.

Richard Moat  26:36

Well, let's, let's see if I can do that inadvertently. But if, if we don't, then pull me up on it, and then I'll go back specifically, when you're talking about successful business people and successful athletes, there's a pattern there in terms of, well, the commonality is success based upon the description of them. So there is no doubt, in my experience, that one of the key factors as to why some people will succeed, either to a greater degree or more often than others, is because they are not afraid of the consequences of either putting a pitch in for a deal or having to train seven days a week in order to get they're not afraid of whatever they understand it might need. Now I say they're not afraid, there'll be a degree of fear because of the uncertainty, sure, but that doesn't stop them from doing or saying what they understand they need to do or say, and that's what I was talking about earlier. And typically that goes with a personality that is focused on the prize, focused on the success, focused on the gold medal, for example, or the billion dollar empire. And they've learned that actually, by speaking their truth, they've gained even though they might have been afraid of speaking their truth, enforcing their boundaries, it's been to their advantage. So when we have a positive experience of stepping up to a fear and reacting regardless of the fear, then it tells us, well, actually, if I'm afraid, maybe there's the fuel to actually do what I need to do or say what I need to say. So that typically falls within, not exclusively, but typically that would fall within the personality of someone who has their eyes on the prize. They're looking up. They're looking forward, always with little or no intention of allowing anything to stop them. Now that has adverse consequences along the way, but we're not talking about people, you know, treading all over others on the way to get to the top, to be the best. We're talking about qualities that make it possible, that are common denominators, so someone who's not afraid to say or do what they need to say or do, which means they're not afraid of failure, that typically is going to be a key factor in success. I would suggest depending. And here's the caveat, depending on what you call success, because some people believe that success is having a quiet life, a comfortable life, a life absent of conflict, for example. So then we go to the opposite. End of the spectrum when it comes to personality. So again, a sweeping generalization, but if someone is more introverted, more withdrawn, very much in touch with their feelings, but not necessarily in the habit of sharing those feelings, then it's not there's not going to be a lot of feedback from the outside world, because an introvert, typically is more insular, does their processing on their own, within themselves, and doesn't necessarily have the same outlets because of their introverted nature. So we're talking now about introverts versus extroverts. It's

Peter Williams  30:41

interesting, isn't it, because the extroverts to me that when we have patience, is almost like the kettle's boiling and the steams all all on the outside, where the introvert seems to be, the kettle's boiling, but the steams all on the inside. Yeah.

Richard Moat  30:55

And that's a good analogy, because we can track the levels of health and well being and illness and disease, just by looking at someone's preference for being more introverted or more extroverted. For that reason, someone who expresses themselves emotionally forget the consequences or how they do it, someone who expresses themselves emotionally is actually moving whatever those emotions are, from inside to outside, and once it's gone, once an emotion is out and has been expressed, that's it. It's gone, unless we're talking about a back catalog that people need to play catch up on, but that's a separate issue. But expressing how we feel is a marker for optimal health, in my experience. So it's a good habit to express how we feel

Peter Williams  31:50

so rich. So does that mean that if we've got introverted people, which would probably, I mean, again, probably half of the people listening to the to the podcast, is it that one of the tips that you would be giving them is, over time, that they need to work on, maybe trying to express their emotions better than they had before, rather than keeping them inside, that they should think about expressing them in the outside world?

Richard Moat  32:20

Absolutely yes, outward expression, especially once we've done it. You know, if you express your anger in the moment, for example, you can't get it back. It's gone. Because you know, the origin of the word emotion is energy in motion. So whenever we're feeling and emotion. What we're actually feeling is the movement of energy within us. Now, what we've learned to do is to label different frequencies of energy within us as anger or sadness or fear, guilt, hurt, shape and sometimes there's a physical manifestation such as sadness. There's tears, for example, embarrassment, our face might go red. So whilst there are physiological markers for what we're feeling, if we feel something on the inside and we facilitate its externalization, that's a word. Actually, I've just come up with that externalize. What you reckon anyway, I'll take it on both. So no. How about this? If we externalize what's going on internally, then that means that whatever the emotion is on the inside is moved to the outside. Because every time we do not express an emotion, that feeling gets buried alive. And feelings that get buried alive never die. And at some point the body will want to present its it won't only want to it will present its bill for the non expression, the non resolution of those emotions. And I'm talking about the unwanted emotions. I'm talking about the toxic, the acidic emotions that so many of us feel, that we've actually been conditioned to believe there must be something wrong with us. So for example, anger, yes, pretty ugly as an emotion, it's not widely accepted and respected and liked, and if you show your anger, well, what is it? You're mad, you're bad, you're sad, you're broken, and you need therapy. And those types of beliefs, that type of conditioning, discourages us from finding an outlet. In this example, for anger sadness is is the same. People don't like the idea of expressing their sadness in case they're judged unfavorably, especially us blokes. This is one of the reasons why suicide is such an issue for men. It's because of the fear of. Of judgment of what will other people think if I let you know that I'm feeling sad, depressed, ashamed and guilty. So we do this to those emotions because we can, unfortunately, and look, the technical term for this is suppression. So the problem is emotional suppression. The solution is emotional expression. Now there's a number of ways we can express our emotions. We can do it via breathing. We can do it by verbalizing. We can do it by writing. Journaling is a very popular pastime for a lot of people, and so if your tendency back to your question, if one's tendency is to be more introverted than extroverted, then it's still possible to find ways to express those emotions that aren't necessarily verbal or active or external in the same way that an extrovert might. And I think that's important to point out, because, with the greatest of respect, a lot of introverts don't like the idea of revealing what's going on internally. A lot of people don't. But it's back to your point that if it's kept internal and there isn't an outlet, it will catch up. It will do damage. It will hurt us, because, as you well know, every emotion has a a correlating hormone, and these hormones tend to have a shelf life and a sell by date. So if we feel an emotion internally that generates a particular hormone, that hormone has a sell by date, and we really need to find an outlet for the expression of that emotion before it becomes toxic. Doing this means that we are perpetuating an internal toxicity, which, of course, as you know, better than anyone, has an impact on every system within the body, nervous system, skeletal system, immune system, endocrine system, they're all adversely impacted every time we choose to suppress a feeling rather than Express so the art is finding a way that works for you, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, of expressing those emotions so that they don't develop what I call an emotional back catalog, and it avoids that very well known, very commonly used term, emotional constipation.

Peter Williams  37:38

Yeah, can we? So I think we're on a good thread here, because obviously we've shared patients, haven't we have sent them to you, and we've actually done some of the gene tests around behaviors. I mean, I think we did a podcast, didn't we, several years ago, which was, why do we do the behaviors that we know we shouldn't do, but we do them anyway, and what we also have found, haven't we, is that there is a for some individuals, there is a genetic predisposition for adverse behaviors, but also there's the generational passing on, I think it didn't start with you. Was 111, of the books, wasn't it?

Richard Moat  38:23

Yeah, Mark woolen, yes, it didn't start with you. Can,

Peter Williams  38:27

can we just expand on that a bit? Because I felt when I first heard that, I mean, this was you God, 15 years ago. Maybe I found and that, I think that was before we were really getting into gene variations and understanding, and, you know, transgenerational trauma, but it's very clear in the scientific literature that you're not only passing on the sort of physiology and anatomy of your ancestors. It does look like you're passing on the their emotions, if you like. I mean, and we see, well, I get, not so much emotions, but we, and quite quickly we, we've seen this really prominently in these epigenetic changes. I think the Dutch famine scenario was a real classic example of, you know, how your grandmothers have passed very quickly on to your babies, a change in the genes that express for obesity simply because of a famine that happened at the end of the war, or maybe when the war was going on. I can't remember the Dutch famine. If you just look that up on it on there on the internet, you'll get all the information from that. So what do you think on that? I mean, it looks like it's it's true that you know you are carrying, or you do come into this world with maybe a set of ways that you look at life, the way your brain interprets the outside world, which is a. Fortunately, is not your fault in many ways. What's your experience with that?

Richard Moat  40:08

Well, I don't need any convincing whatsoever about its validity for sure, and it's remarkably changed the way that I work with clients, because a lot of people believe that if something is inherited and it's in their genes, it's genetic. Well, they've got it for life, they can't do anything about it. Well, for starters, that's not true, because, as you well know, genes and their expression determine whether or not they carry on so it's the expression of those genes that we've inherited in the here and now.

Peter Williams  40:45

Yeah, I think we're pretty clear on that. I think what we used to think about genes has much less of an effect than what we're actually seeing. We think, you know, epigenetics is, is much more important, but even more important, I suppose epigenetics comes into this tag. Is the, is, what we call the exposome. You know, what have you been exposed to throughout your life determines about, you know, how you how you go through your life, whether that's disease or whether that is, you know, disorders of, you know, of emotional, well, being, um, you know, I think we're pretty clear that that's the case. So, you know, early, early, you know, childhood traumas, etc, play a massive part with how it shapes the brain and how it shapes that individuals outlook of the outside world. And I will definitely say, you know, there's some very, very distinct patterns with regards to anxiety, depression, chronic fatigue syndrome, where we see strong relationships with, you know, adverse childhood trauma for sure.

Richard Moat  41:44

Yeah, and there's more and more research that is confirming that as a very, very plausible and real thing for people to start being aware of. It's not the end of the world that something happened before you were born, and you've come here with it, because it'll be manifesting itself in the here and now. And the good news is that healing something that's intergenerational in the here and now means it doesn't get passed on. However, back to your point. The My experience is that, amongst other things, what we inherit are unresolved traumas and unhealed emotional wounds from previous generations. That's my experience. Keeping it nice and simple, unresolved traumas, unhealed emotional wounds. Now, both these traumas and these wounds lead us to develop specific beliefs about the world and about ourselves, which then manifest themselves in various ways in which we behave and relate in the world. So when we observe someone behaving in a way that we perhaps become a little judgmental over or we wonder why they might be doing that, because it makes no sense at all to behave that way. The chances are very good that the seeds for that behavior were sown back in previous generations, if not in previous generations, in the first seven years of our existence, which is known in psychological terms as the imprint period, the first seven years when as children, we get imprinted with the beliefs, the behaviors, the prejudices, the fears of what's gone before, in particular, mum and dad. So when I was digging into this as a subject. There are various different schools of thought. One school of thought is that we inherit up to three generations of traumas and wounds. Another was saying seven. So it doesn't really matter whether it's three or seven. What it means is that we arrive here all and in my opinion, already predisposed to certain behaviors, certain beliefs, and as long as we are carrying with us unhealed emotional wounds and unresolved traumas, they will show themselves. They will present themselves. They will repeat themselves in our lifetime, here and now, now, if we've inherited them, if they've come to us, what it tells us is that the previous generations haven't been successful in resolving them, whether it's a trauma or a wound, they haven't been successful. The chances are very good they didn't even know about them, or didn't go anywhere near them, or just dismiss them as the way of the world. With the advances in technology and information, of course, and accessibility to information, it's possible now to understand that regardless of what we might have in. Inherited from previous generations, it is possible to work through whatever the impact of those traumas and those wounds were in the here and now, heal them in the here and now, and then stop that legacy so that we don't pass it on to future generations. Because I believe that when we become aware that something needs our attention, whatever it might be, an emotional wound, a bruise, a scar, a trauma, that's our opportunity if we want to take it, to dig deeper, to look further and engage in the healing process, whatever might need healing so that we can change the trajectory of our lives. Because if we arrive traumatized and wounded, we arrive into a family where, let's face it, if we go back a bit. Let's take mum and dad right now. Let's take mum and dad before they met each other. So mom living her life, she doesn't know she's going to be mum yet. Mum over here, dad over here, and he doesn't know he's going to be dad yet. So these two get together and do what adults do, and they co create us. Okay. Do you think that mum will have had her own traumas, dramas and wounds that she had to deal with when she was growing up? Yeah. What about dad? Equally? So. So here we have two people, both traumatized, both wounded, get together. Do what adults do. They co create us. It's inconceivable to believe that we wouldn't arrive into this world, carrying to some degree, whatever it was that mum and dad hadn't resolved for themselves. But here's the kicker. We get born into a family where mum has unhealed trauma and wounds, Dad has unhealed trauma and wounds, and we want them and need them to look after us. So we're being looked after by with the greatest of respect and the greatest amount of love we're being looked after by traumatized and wounded parents in a world that doesn't necessarily support or encourage the healing of emotional wounds and traumas. And bearing in mind, the first seven years is the most influential time in our lives. By the time we get to seven, some people believe it's five. Some will say it's three, but let's just say seven, because it's a catch all. By the time we get to seven, the imprinting of the traumas and the wounds and the unsupportive behaviors, the unhelpful beliefs, they're all in place, and then we've got to navigate and negotiate our lives unwittingly and not realizing that we're wounded and scarred and traumatized and bruised, and then we wonder why we get the results we get in life. Well, it's because of this predisposition, what we've come here with, that we're trying to sort of keep keep at arm's length, whilst living a life and creating something that we believe we can have. But whatever's over here that hasn't been effectively dealt with remains in play, and it'll just show itself in various different ways along our life path, one of which absolutely is physical illness and ailments and disease. And whilst the majority of people haven't necessarily made the connection yet, and a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea, we can't rule out that the emergence of physical illness and ailments and disease has something to do with these emotional wounds and unresolved traumas from whenever. It doesn't matter, really, when they might have been inflicted or started seven generations ago, or, you know, during the birthing process. It's not that relevant.

Peter Williams  49:18

Rich. I think, I think, I think there's two things on this. I think we should put in the show notes Mark Williams book, it didn't start with you. And I think basil's book as well. The Body Keeps the Score. I think I probably, well, it's, I mean, basil's, for me, is probably one of the best books I think I've ever read. It's a real tour de force. So we'll put those in the show notes, because, so I suppose put in the show notes, because this comes to my next question. My next question is, when, when does an individual? Because this is everyone, isn't it? I mean, we're talking about everyone here, you know, as I said to exception, yeah, there's no exception. So we're all in this. Same boat. We've all got trauma. We all do stupid things. I mean, God, it's laughable in our house. I mean, literally, get the piss taken out of me all the time because, you know, they just think I'm a weirdo, which is quite

Richard Moat  50:10

amazing. I've been to your house as well. Yeah, it's a bit.

Peter Williams  50:15

But I suppose my my point on this is that what everyone listening to this would be like, that's probably me, When? When is it that people probably go, it's time for me to do something about this? Because again, it brings us back to the question we had the beginning. Is that most people don't do anything about it because the fear of the unknown is so great. They just don't do it. And I think we've all been in that situation, we don't do it because now I don't want to go there. And I know that is a problem again, that, you know, there's some real problems with regards to taking people back from a point of view of that might be a really bad thing to do, and it's got to be done very carefully by, you know, by an expert. What would be your recommendation? Because they're going to be people listening to this who probably been suffering all their life. And there's comes a point where I just can't carry on like this. I need some help. Yeah,

Richard Moat  51:11

well, to answer the the question that you asked, the the point at which something will change for any individual is when the pain of the current situation outweighs the fear of doing something about it. But as long as the fear of doing something about it is stronger and more compelling than the pain I'm experiencing by going through whatever I'm going through, the fear wins every time, so I'm less likely to change. So it's a bit like fear pain. Okay, I can tolerate the pain and I'm prepared to tolerate the pain because the fear is so great, because we know that we're all very well versed at doing the fear thing. And as time passes, we develop things to help us with our pain threshold. One of the things that we do is we develop addictive behaviors to help soothe the pain,

Peter Williams  52:21

and that's obviously what we were doing some patients, haven't we? We've looked at number one, are there genetics associated with addictive behaviors? Because again, the problem with with those patients, it wasn't that they knew what to do to make them better, is that, as I said to you, they just kept sabotaging in themselves. And we see this all the time, all the time, and I don't think it, as I said to you, I don't think it's just it's a genetic susceptibility in some of them, but in the other one, as I said to you, is that the it's easier, less painful to stay as they are, than actually do that and you Get that so so what would be your advice to them? People, then rich, is it they just got to stay there and suffer the pain or,

Richard Moat  53:07

Oh, no, no, um, obviously it's a choice, and a lot of people make that choice. But I think a lot of people make that choice because they they're not aware that there are any other options. So just to finish off, my demonstration fear, even though

Peter Williams  53:23

we won't be able to see it rich, because we won't be video, we won't be using a video at the audio. So you've been very expressive and balletic.

Richard Moat  53:31

So you mean all this

Peter Williams  53:34

time? Yeah, just

Richard Moat  53:36

audio, very proud. Oh, and I got dressed up as

Peter Williams  53:39

well. Listen, I might ask the marketing team to put it on YouTube. Anyways, I even saw you've got the on sign on, yeah, no, no, mate. We'll put this. We'll put this on YouTube. We have all right, let's carry on. So very interesting, watching your demos. Oh,

Richard Moat  53:57

let me just get over this feeling of deflation. Hang on a second. There we go, I'm back. So

Peter Williams  54:02

always express your emotions. You told me, dig in. Always express your emotions, you told me,

Richard Moat  54:08

yeah. And can I just add something to that? Because it's really, really very relevant, and if I forget the opportunity, no, I'd rather take the opportunity now than run the risk of forgetting. Ultimately, it's our relationship with our emotions that matters, our relationship with our emotions, and that goes some way to answering the question that you've just asked. So I'll just finish off. So yeah, as long as the fear is greater than the pain, we're not going to change until the pain gets greater than the fear, and then we're moved to change. But of course, usually there's been lots of collateral damage, sure, whilst we've been experiencing the pain, sure,

Peter Williams  54:47

and that's why they end up at our place. You know, this is where I said to you, for us. I mean, when, why we refer to you is because, you know, we've been in the game long enough to know that there is the stuff that we can do, but a lot. Of why they're with us and trying to, you know, trying to solve their illness is because of everything that we're talking about here, and that's why we say, look, there's going to be two strategies here. You know, what we're doing is the consequences of, in many ways, the way you viewed the outside world and the consequences that come with that. And until we start helping you with that, and we can't do that. We need to send to someone like rich, you know, you can't fully heal. In our opinion, we can do a good job. Don't get us wrong, but we won't be able to fully resolve it because you're always drip feeding the tap

Richard Moat  55:35

yes. And it's a pattern, it's a behavior, and a lot of the time it's an unconscious thing, until, and we both do this in our lines of work, we help make things conscious for people, we bring into people's conscious awareness the truth about what's going on. And so for anybody who is adversely affected by suppressed emotions, by inherited emotional scars and unresolved traumas, they will have developed, inadvertently, a relationship with their unwanted emotions that has them keep a distance from their unwanted emotions, As if it's an adversarial relationship. And what we need to do as human beings in general is we have to get closer to our emotions. We have to have a more amicable relationship than adversarial with our emotions, and that will then make it much easier for us to start talking about how we feel, which, in itself, is a big issue these days, so just talking about how we feel and realizing that actually the sky doesn't fall in and the ground doesn't swallow you whole when you do talk about your emotions helps us develop That sense of safety, of engaging with our emotions, sharing our emotions, talking about them, because then when in the future, and the future can, of course, be in any next second, when in the future we feel something we'd rather not feel. If we have an amicable relationship with our emotions, we're more likely to in that moment, say out loud something like, oh, crikey. That makes me feel really, really angry. Now, that is an example of emotional expression, but it's emotional expression in the moment that the emotion comes up, which is what would have been ideal since the very beginning. Expressing the truth of how we're feeling in any given moment means that that feeling comes through us. We experience it. It gives us feedback as to how someone or something is affecting us, and it's gone. But over time, because we've learned and we've mastered the art of emotional suppression. We've created and developed what I call an emotional back catalog, a history of emotion forget those that we might have inherited okay, but a history of emotions that we've failed to effectively and healthily work through. So they've built up. We've been carrying them around in our cellular makeup, and then it's only a matter of time before they get triggered. And then they the whole thing, if you like, our world comes tumbling down because someone left the top off the toothpaste. And you think, crikey that was, that was some reaction to the top of the two. Nothing to do with the toothpaste, everything to do with the fact that we'd been suppressing, suppressing, suppressing over periods of time, because

Peter Williams  58:49

I'm well known in our house for as the term they say consistently losing his marbles. Probably how I define that is that, yeah, I am quite quick to rage. But I think that rage is purely again, it's I keep saying to everyone says, Look, this is just dad expressing because I am, as I said to you, I was a you said, I'm quite expressive as a as an individual, and it's good for me to do that, because I don't hold any grudges. Um, you know, if I'm pissed about something, you're going to know, because I'll, I'll do a five second rage, and I'm, it's done, you know, so I don't, I see that as quite therapeutic. Um, for me, yeah, because I've expressed I didn't like it, although, again, it's how the others judge me sometimes, as you said, she was like, I'd chill out a little bit, but that's for me, that's a healthy outlet of me expressing emotion about something that maybe has crossed my boundaries. We bring this right back to the beginning, but it's done, and. As I said, to say, it said to the wife and the kids, it's like, you know that she must know dad by now is that when I'm unhappy about something, I will, you know, the boundaries are crossed. I'll let you know straight away. I'm probably like to lose my marbles, and it might be quite loud, but then we're done. And that's sort of a good way that you've allowed me, as you say over time, to say, you know you have to express your emotions. You know it's really healthy for you to do that, because out is better than it, as you always said to me,

Richard Moat  1:00:32

yeah, and just on that point, it's worth mentioning is we also need to be mindful that there could be consequences with regard to how we express ourselves.

Peter Williams  1:00:44

So can I come back to that? Of course, I'm always having to reinforce, you know, because they always tell what? Why do you have to lose your right? Like that? I'm just like but, you know, I always lose room. I can know that to me, you know, makes me feel good and I'm happy, but I owe there are always consequences that I have to reinforce my side too, for the bigger, you know, for the bigger, I suppose the good of the team in our house. I think we could probably look at that. I never lose my eye unless there's a boundary that's been crossed for me. But that's all

Richard Moat  1:01:15

well, here's the thing about that. I think it's a wonderful example for the kids, the boys, to see that you're not afraid, to reveal how you're feeling. That's what this is. This is Role Model B, in my opinion, this is role model behavior, because you're demonstrating you're not afraid, you will explain yourself. There are no consequences. In fact, the consequences are once you've calmed down, it's gone. You don't hold grudges. You go to sleep peacefully at night, you wake up in the morning and you're not carrying the rage with you from the previous day because you unloaded it. Yeah, that's, that's role model behavior. Yeah,

Peter Williams  1:02:01

that's definitely, that's definitely, and that just makes sense all the way along, isn't it, that surely that's going to be good advice to everyone. You know, as you said, Don't go to bed without resolving. You know, what you've got to resolve. And that's something that I always say to all of our patients, don't spew on it. You'll have a poor night's sleep. That's going to be a double whammy for you, as far as your health. You know, if you need to sort it out, sort it out before you go to bed, so you can go back, so you can go and have some peaceful sleep. Rich, we're well over the hour So, and we only just really tipped a few little subjects, and I think it's good to probably just summarize on the ones that we would have done based on the two assumptions that we've talked about today on assumptions, or sections number one, lack of boundaries, and the fear that is associated with it is the sort of you know, four to five key tips, starting points of people who are listening that you would recommend that would allow them to start on their journey to maybe reinforcing boundaries, because these people recognize that that is a problem to their emotional well being. Well,

Richard Moat  1:03:11

I'd go back to the first point that I mentioned when we started on this a little earlier, and that is to accept and admit that we are afraid of expressing the truth about a boundary. It's okay to be afraid. It's not against the law. It's not problematic, unless that fear freezes us and stops us from expressing what we need to express for our own safety and our own sanity, for example, but because fear is such a strong motivator, we've got to get closer to it. We've got to allow it in. We've got to make it matter if we're going to have any chance of changing our relationship to it and not allowing it to stop us. So the next thing I would say is, I don't know if I'll I've got four or five, because I think this needs to be quite succinct in terms of, first of all, accept and admit that fear prevents you from behaving in ways that you need to behave in order to preserve yourself. That's the first thing. And then the second thing I would say is when you become afraid, or when you're aware that you are afraid of saying something, whether it's to do with a boundary, or not say it out loud, as in, I'm afraid of saying, or I'm afraid of admitting, or I'm afraid of communicating, and what you will find is that that takes the sting out of the fear. So it will help, because if ultimately you are going to have to say to somebody. So listen, you know you owe us because you canceled too late. If you've already said it out loud, it's a form of rehearsal. Whilst you don't necessarily have the experience of what comes back from whoever you're saying it to, you've got the cellular memory that says, Okay, I've said this before. I'm saying it again, and then just know that whatever response you get, I suppose this is the third point, whatever response you get from the other person when you have expressed yourself, first of all, guaranteed it's not personal. Secondly, maybe more importantly, they will respond towards you based upon how many unhealed emotional wounds and unresolved traumas they are carrying from their lifetimes. That's why it's not personal, because we

Peter Williams  1:05:59

just, I know, I know, I know we're trying to summarize this, but this is probably one of the most important points that you've consistently said to me, is that the way people respond to you is not down to you,

Richard Moat  1:06:13

absolutely right,

Peter Williams  1:06:15

which is crazy to think about it, isn't it, but, but it is the case, and it's only Yeah, I mean, okay, it's going to take that, that took a long time before that started to really register with me. Is that the way? Because you're like, holy cow. I mean, that was just like, can you believe the way, the way that person just responded to me then, but as you said, mate, it's got nothing to do you.

Richard Moat  1:06:39

And that's, I like the way you say it. It's got nothing to do with you. It's everything to do with them. Yeah, everything now for a lot of people, that really helps, yeah, because a lot of people are wired to take things personally, yeah, yeah. So we sort of, this is a bit of a glib saying. I'm going to say it anyway. We've got to get over ourselves and stop thinking that actually everything's about us. Now here's the paradox. I believe everything is about us, but not in the way that we think it's about us, how we feel, how we operate, what we project out into the world what we believe and how we behave and the results we get from other people is all for us to show us, to teach us, to guide us, to help us understand how we are being in the world. So if we receive feedback from someone else in the world that we don't like, then it's going to trigger us emotionally, which means we're going to become aware of any back catalog of emotions we might have built up, in which case we could take that as a real gift and say, Okay, I'm going to go away and work on this, because thanks to you being a real so and so I've realized that I've got a back catalog of stuff I haven't dealt with. I'm going to go over here and get some help to deal with it. I appreciate your help, even though I know you didn't really set out to help me. Thank you very much. And then we're just not drawn into what I call other people's dramas, because some people love an argument, some people love to poke you in a in an attempt to get a response. And of course, if they get a response, they carry on. And then what happens? They fight and fight and fight until they win. We feel defeated. We traipse off into the corner. We lick our wounds. They don't care about us. That's just another victory in their day to day existence. Whereas we have had those wounds that we thought we'd been hiding and healed, we have them reopened and revealed, and we're back to where we were, and we haven't learned the lesson. So the lesson will come along again give us the opportunity to learn it. What do you need to do here? Well, what you need to do here is you need to say no, you need to enforce the boundary, because every other time you haven't done it, it's wounded you. It's affected you adversely. It's created stress. Do you want to keep doing well, I'm too afraid to do well, look, if you don't just understand, these are the consequences, and it's back to the fear thing and understanding there's nothing wrong with us if we're afraid of speaking the truth, there's nothing wrong. Would it be better if we were comfortable and more at ease speaking the truth absolutely right? That's what we need to practice, speak your truth more often with more people, and practice that so that it becomes easier, and then, yes, there will be times when you speak your truth and other people don't like it. Okay, that's a separate conversation, because it depends on the context. What's at stake here? Does it matter? Type of thing? So one thing at a time, I. Admit that we're scared, practice what we want to say, engage with our emotions, make them matter, develop an amicable relationship with them, not adversarial, and then know that everything that happens in our world, if you'd like to take it this way, is for you. It's showing you where you're wounded, showing you where you're traumatized. You don't need to you don't need to delve back into that. You don't need to have a rebirthing experience. You don't need to have a chat with Mum and Dad. You don't need to worry about where it came from, because it's manifesting itself today in the here and now, and today in the here and now. You have the resources to be able to deal with it, which you didn't have before the age of seven, which you didn't have when you were a teenager. Because everything that's happened to you along the way has molded and shaped you and got you to the position where you're now thinking, okay, something's not quite right. My body is letting me know through this illness, pain, disease, this ailment, something about the way I've been living my life needs attention, and it's whether or not you're up for giving it that attention. You've gotta you've got to matter enough to yourself to want to step into this arena, if you like. I

Peter Williams  1:11:19

think that was beautifully summarized, Paul, so I'm going to stop it there, and I'm going to encourage you to come on again, because it's always words of wisdom. Now, I did ask a question for you, because obviously a legend in the business is very difficult to get hold of, so I really appreciate your time. Are you starting an Instagram so everyone can follow me. You can put it on the list. So is it still not quite done? I

Richard Moat  1:11:46

am starting one, and it's due for launch in April 2025

Peter Williams  1:11:53

Okay, so we're in April 2025 now. So, so yeah, we I tell you what this probably won't go out for, so we'll put it on the show notes. Okay, thank you listening and linking onto that, because I'm assuming there's going to be some serious words of wisdom on the Oh, boy, yeah.

Richard Moat  1:12:07

Well, if I can plug my newsletter as well at the same time,

Peter Williams  1:12:12

all on the show notes. Mate, absolutely great. Thank you all good mate. Pleasure as always, I will. I'll see you soon. Yeah,

Richard Moat  1:12:21

I look forward to it. Cheers, mate, see you later. All right. Bye for now.