Jewish Identity with Ben M. Freeman

Ben Freeman, it is good to have you on the show. How are you today? Good morning, Adam. I'm very well. How are you? Or should I say? Good evening? Yeah, we can see a good morning. Ben. I'm in Los Angeles, been is in Hong Kong, which means he is 15 hours ahead of Los Angeles. Now, this is commitment. I love it. Thank you. Thanks for beer been is a thinker, an educator, an author and specifically he is gay and Jewish like I am so I love this. It's like old home week here at 30 mom. Turret Ben's latest book, which is a must read as Jewish Pride, rebuilding a people. It came out in February 20 21 been beside residing in Hong Kong or going to get into everything in the second. He leads up the humanities team and also teaches at an American International School over there called the harbor school. Then is working very, very hard to combat anti-Semitism in the scourge of it, which is happening which is proliferating sadly all over again and what I really like Ben and I want to To tell us more 

about yourself, but I love that you are. I shouldn't say love. I hate that anti-Semitism and anti-zionism which I don't make a distinction between they do. The same thing. Have a comfortable home in what you would, what would be considered the progressive side of politics or left? Granted, you know, you you're coming at it from a, an English, or a UK political view, but it's the same thing in America. It's the same thing in Europe, you know, I'll rest here. So I wanted to To go back though, before we talk about that and tell us about like your upbringing and you know, what drove you because you really are a Jewish and gay activist Jewish gay activists, and you're a strong Zionist. And I love that. And I don't know your politics with I'm assuming you're not on the right, but maybe you are, so let's hear it. So I grew up in Glasgow Scotland, Scotland. I think you're right. When you say that British politics is study, different were slightly more to the left in general. So even our members 

of part. Is probably more akin to your Democrats? Yeah, but I think in terms of our kind of jewishness were I wouldn't say further to the right because it's not really political. We are just more observant, you know, for example, we went to reform synagogue. Okay, that's separate Cutlery. Our home was like strictly kosher that's kind of common, you know, that's not unusual necessarily to have a kind of that level of observance and that also kind of speaks. Stu are kind of Zionism. Glasgow particular is a very Zionist tone. Wow. Yeah, there's only about 5,000 Jews in Scotland by see zionists. I mean, it from the Jewish population, not necessary from the non-jewish. But yeah, the Jewish population is very proud. Very Zionist. It's small. So it's kind of centralized centralized around a couple of areas. I lived in one of those areas. So for example, 5,000 Jews in the whole of Scotland, five Jewish families lived on my street growing up. So it was a very Jewish area and you know what, My friends 

describe being Jewish, like, being a wizard or witch and Harry Potter. Ha ha. Because I think it's actually quite a good analogy. You know, we lived in Scotland. I were a kilt to my bar. Mitzvah. This is amazing Kilt to your bar. Mitzvah. Y'all trying to get a picture for you. Please, please? I know maybe right now. Text it to me. No, I'm joking. So we so, we were Scottish Rite. We were, we were British. I feel British and Scottish, but you entered into our home, you can have went through the front door and you were entering into a different world. You know, there was Hebrew writing on the walls. There was a Mozart. We had the blue G + F10, as I said, it was kosher. So it was very Jewish in a way. What was made me feel distinct from the people around me and I was always very proud of it, but it wasn't really something. I was super cognizant of until I went to University. So that's kind of fast forward and quite a few years because when I was a kid, I went to the only Jewish school in Scotland, 

as one Jewish school. It's an elementary school Calderwood large and went, there went to a Christian High School because there was no other option. But still was very proud, but that is where experience can have my first moments of jew-hatred. Although, it was kind of small. Although it definitely stayed with me, but it really became a bigger problem when I went to University. So I went to University of Glasgow and I studied politics. So that as you can imagine was a very kind of left-wing environment and it really was kind of hell and all honesty. And that was when I really encountered jew-hatred kind of en masse for the first time. And it's really fascinating. You know, I'm kind of very active online, and I do experience right wing, Jew hatred, but I've got to sing for the most part. It was the left. I was experiencing at University at school. Yeah. I mean it's a very interesting conversation. So I moved with my now British Acts to England, where he was from. And I lived there from 2014 

and 2016. And the thing you immediately feel as an American though. We're very secular Jews. At least I grew up in a secular Jewish if I'm very different. Didn't keep kosher. We didn't have ritual. We went to Temple twice a year if that and then, you know, had a Passover seder with Grandma because it was fun. But when I went to England, you though, it is a significantly less religious country, in its in, its DNA at the moment. Not that what it once was obviously, you know, it's an Anglican Place. It's a Protestant place. It's a Christian place. I mean, you know, I remember wandering through the aisles of waitrose just looking for. I mean, if they could do Jewish section was like it was almost like we were like in some alien theocracy or something. I mean, it's crazy thing and this is England and I remember feeling there was a Hamas attacks and the war back in 2014. I was there and actually wrote about it and the aunties I design is and that was so prevalent around me that the the default 

position there was appropriate, pro-palestinian terribly, unsympathetic Israel. Few found people there pro-israel. They would sort of do it like that. British queasiness. Well, you know, you know, it's like, you know, here's the thing. I want to add it in because I want to relate this to you. And I think what you the hell you went through in college in Scotland, of course, I didn't go to college there. But you know, the anti-Semitism on the left here, for the most part though. Its robust is couched in. Well, we're Americans and we all grew up with Jewish. But, you know, this, of course, we don't want to hurt the Jews. We just are anti-colonial. Yeah. We are. We think that A settlor policies bad or we hate Netanyahu and he's friends with all sorts of specious stuff that that goes on, because growing up in America, is a Jew, least and it's scary. Not even think about this was such a welcoming place. My name is Bert. I was in, you know, Miami, I mean America, as you know is you know, has absorbed 

Jewish identity. I think much more than, you know, so I asked, do you think that you're informed by a specifically? Don't know glaswegian politics or or is it is, I don't want to make it my optic, but I want to ask you. I think, I mean, I think Scotland itself is fairly left when I think those areas of the UK, which are definitely more conservative Glatt Scotland as a whole. And Glasgow particularly was very left-wing because of it was working class, right? That is where the mystery of the empire was, that is. So, there was a huge amount of working people party. The Labour party, was it? I mean, that was, you know, yeah, and they also, I mean, they sent the tanks and 2, Clyde's, yep, which area in Glasgow? And like the 1920s? Right? But I think I think it's really interesting what you're saying about Britain Canada versus America because I remember watching American TV shows I grow up. I'm 35. So I grew up in the age of I miss Seinfeld, but we watched friends and all of these shows and 

Sex in the City and there was always Jewish characters features and I never better at whether it was positive or negative negative representation. It was out there and I got really excited because that was never the case in the UK. We're not featured in UK media tall and I kind of think At the time it never bothered me because I thought well, there's like 300 thousand of us, you know, it's fine but growing up and kind of becoming more critical especially of the American Jewish experience. I mean, critical in terms of my questioning thinking rather than just criticism because I've written a lot about the American Jewish experience. In my first book. My second book is coming out in October. I reference, the American Jewish experience a lot and I think that In the UK, we grew up. Have you ever seen the cartoon An American Tale? Of course, they equate song Somewhere Out There. Yes, we grew up watching American Tail and Fievel Goes West and I was that song. And I quote, in the first book. There 

is no cats in America and the streets are paved with cheese. So we could have grew up hearing that America. Was this kind of, um, like, not a Promised Land because that was always Israel, but it was a very special place where it was free of Jew hatred, but on the other hand, we kind of heard the Meaning of America, you know, people were saying, you know, 50% of American Jews, Mario, and at that time, that was concerning to British Jews. Not that less is, of course, there's nothing wrong with murdering someone of a different Community or whatever. But and my kind of recent thinking the idea that America had a golden age is never true. There was never a golden age in America. It was a Gilded Age. Now. Have you seen Gilded Age by Julian Fellowes? Yeah. Yeah. I've seen parts of it. Well, we were, I was like watching it. I not know so much about that period of History because it's not something we've spoken about, you know, in Britain so much. This kind of period of enormous, economic boom and 

wealth. Yep, and I was just Googling it because I'm a historian and I want to know more and they were talking about why it was called a Gilded Age and it was guilt on the surface and then underneath it was kind of horrible and it was Cutthroat and people are crying coin that term. Yeah. So people were like, you know robber barons and people were kind of doing maybe not. So great things to amass wealth. And I think that idea of a Gilded Age, Is what much more appropriately describes the American Jewish experience. Because it feel it looks on the surface that it was very welcoming and very there was there's no cats in America, right? But actually, it was never true. There are always new Jew hatred. There's always been the far-right element and even during the period or working. We consider the Golden Age. It was not always super safe to be Jewish in America. And then the acceptance that was kind of granted was given a cost. And I think That is the most important thing. Like, what impact can 

have was on the American Jewish Community to reach these levels of kind of so-called acceptance. Well, I mean it, yes, I mean, it's like, I mean, is a lot a lot going on here or the, okay. So the American Jewish experience, which I can only speak to any post WWII era unborn. 1974 were all post-world war two. People here is very different than the experience before that, you know, my grandparents who were born in 1919 1920 since Just recently passed but they grew up with in a, the no dogs. No Jew signs and the South, you know, that kind of thing and anti-Semitism was much more Rife and on the surface. There's always been the WASP establishment, you know, and I mean, and that has been the country club crowd that, you know, kept wanted white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, America to always remain as such. I by no means is was my experience. To suggested by 8. M naught, say you're saying this but it wasn't to suggest that any semitism wasn't here. There was a you mentioned, you know, marrying outside, 

the Jewish faith, the political writer thinker, wave, Crystal bill kristol, you may know his father was a guy named Irving kristol. Their big political thinkers over here and Irving. Kristol famously said, the greatest threat to Jews in America, isn't it? He semitism. It's intermarriage. Yes, you heard? Yeah. You've heard, but but but We will be, I think the difference here also is that one thing is we were so secular second point that I went to a presbyterian prep school which started with very few Jews, but because it was Private, you know, it was bait is white, but it was all Jew and which mainly Jews and Presbyterians or some piss kop, aliens or whatever, but it was very, very accepting place because we all felt we were from the same class for lack of a better word, same upbringing. But, you know, there were There were parents of people who were members of those clubs which had historically been anti-semitic in Miami where I grew up. It was always that we were very aware. You know, 

we're the world's oldest hatred, you always, viscerally are aware know we were having, you know, but we did feel that what we're seeing now, certainly. What ya said, 20 Century Fascism and hitlerism, did Nazism was something that was a true horror. That wouldn't be repeated, that didn't happen here, you know, and Informed a lot of our secular think about being Jewish but being an American also being an American as an identity that's being an American Jew being get, you know, and we're rest identity politics which brings me to you because I think identity politics is devouring itself in the worst kind of way. It is not. For example, there isn't a home for choose, right? We're not included in this oppression hierarchy, and Were Somehow only white oppressors. Which is insane. Hitler would like to have a word but it's an interesting conceit, because do you think that this is rooted clearly anti-semitic? But is it rooted in the fact that Israel now is Nation non grata in the world, and if you're 

on the left, somehow your politics have to be so calcified and so wave ring, right? And Ideologically dogmatic that you have to believe this. That's what I want to dive into with you because your book is great and does a lot of it. I want you to tell us might think that they're both written and centuries Millennia of Jew hatred. And I think that, you know, I'm a historian as I said. And so I think history is the most important thing because what we're experiencing now is really a modern iteration of what's come before. You know, right? Today. We are at the apex predator, right? And the great Pantheon of whiteness Jews with them. Most white for the left. Just a little specifically. This is a view on the left, but we're always viewed as a predator. Then that's his view, just as a predator. The Germans are the 19th century of you. This is a pretty sure we were always viewed as, as kind of dangerous force, that was either conspiring or working to bring down kind of white Christian. Yes, xiety, 

and we were just a foreign other witcha guess is kind of what your point too and you're talking about the craziness of describing us as white because in the 19th century, when Ashkenazi Jews, Before the 19th century, when Ashkenazi Jews were living in Europe. We were not European. We were Jews in Europe, and they very purposely made us not European. And actually, in the, the former Russian Empire emancipation only took place in 1917 with the Russian Revolution. So for the vast majority of our time, in these areas, we were segregated excluded oppressed, but there's people who refer to kind of modern contemporary Jew hatred as new Jew hatred as new anti-Semitism and I really think that's the wrong approach. It is a direct continuation. Right? And you know, yes, it has a specific face, it definitely fits our time. It is absolutely an expression of you know, post 20th century politics particularly 21st century politics now, but absolutely it's an extension and I think that, you know, the world 

always the non-jewish world. I should say, it's always finding excuses to hate us. There's always justification. There are not rooted in reality their fantasy, but they are Nation. So of course, living in the age of the Jewish State, it's almost kind of logical that the pattern would continue. I think that, you know, Israel can't do right. Israel does, right. And it's ignored as you'll does wrong and it's exaggerated and solely focused on. Also, there's lies told and I think that said, you know, I guess the question you asked was about the kind of specific leftist nature of this and yes, there is a specific story here because and while it is an absolutely, as I said, a continuation of kind of Millennia Jew hatred in the mid 20th century, the Arab world and the Soviet Union kind of conspired to reframe Zionism. So they basically bastardized at they stole it from us and they changed into something else. This was then adopted by the new layer. To were kind of different from the old left. The 

old left and Europe. I was very interested in class struggle. Whereas the new left was the post-world war two. It was all about colonialism and identity politics and freedoms. Like for you know, lgbtq+ people are a woman or different minority groups and Israel was framed as a white oppressor, and really that is what's being pirated today. But all of these ideas are just modern iterations of ancient tropes inch and narratives, you'll, we're the ultimate oppressor. We're the ones who threatened the world. We are the source of all evil. These are things that have been said, for literally thousands of years about Jews. And I think that understanding that context, while of course understand the specificity is really important because that is the backdrop of everything we're experiencing. Yeah. I mean, I very much so. And I think one of the things that that I'm mystified by 4 and I have a have a, very difficult time. Wrapping my head around is the way in which this sort of colonial identity politics 

argument ends up in a very deeply into metal plate. Anti-Semitic. Negating Jewish identity and the right of Israel to exist. And I think it's interesting because you've got this idea. That only certain groups is is the is what you can have to infer from this are entitled to Justice when others are not and that is under a progressive Banner. So why my we're all aware. There's been right-wing antisemitism. We all know. We all know that was what we were. That was what I was always afraid of growing that to me. It's this this entire movement, especially Among young people on the left who seem to think that speaking Central to a kind of progressive egalitarian vision is being an anti-zionist. And it's it to me. It's, of course, it's it just, it feels like you haven't. That's why you see this awful, rise, and spiking and hate crimes. Absolutely. And I think that what we see is on the left, it's not just that anti-zionism is Central to kind of modern leftist identity. And I mean the left is a 

broad Church. We have to acknowledge those many people who met her not and to do it. But yes, generally speaking. It's not just that it's Central. It's the people are defining their progressiveness to finding their leftist - through our designer. Some, which again is a kind of a pattern that's continued for thousands of years. But as, as I said, Jew hatred has always kind of been Central to Western ideology. And this is just a modern iteration of it and it's framed as Justice, you know, post-colonialism. Journalism. It is, you know, fighting against white supremacy, imperialism colonialism. Those are important things and because of this bastardization of Zionism, it Israel is no lumped in with that. And this is why Jews defining, Jewish identity and Jewish experience is so important. We cannot allow the non-jewish world to Define our identity to find who we are. And sometimes we fall into their trap. So for example, you know, there's these like yeah, Israel is a white State. And then people 

say well, You know that 50% or 60% of Israelis come from the Middle East, and Ethiopia and North Africa, and what they're saying inadvertently is, we're not white but those Ashkenazi Jews are white and that's us falling into perhaps, because what we need to say is no Jews are white. We have lived in many different places and that, yes, has impacted our complexion how we look, but we are an indigenous people and exactly as you said, and did you need two runs out for doesn't one out for anyone except the Jews? And that we are treated by continuously with double standards. We are combating Jews. Combating Israel is seen as a form of justice. And this is the world that we're living in. And I hate to kind of be the bearer of bad news, but it's very frightening, but it's why Jews must reclaim, our Jewish identity. We must reject non-jewish perceptions and Jewish identity because they just don't not only did he not know anything but more often than not the societies that are trying to Define our 

Identity or coming from our nefarious place. They hate us. Yeah, and I think And I think that, you know, you mentioned that people have sort of a, they think that this sort of that their politics, they believe in his new, you know, this sort of view of what Jews are as a new thing in Israel. And I've said on this podcast, many times. The thing I think is so frustrating is that there is the I call them. The narcissism of that. I called the narcissism of bad ideas, their generation of people there on Twitter. They're everywhere think actually, history began with them and more specifically, history began with Donald Trump. Nothing else matters. Everything should be defined by that, every Senate vote every Supreme Court nomination, every position on Israel. I mean, my God, the Abraham Accords are great. I mean, the Abraham Accords, right? Right it. Which Trump will never get do credit for in shouldn't be whether it's Kushner. Whoever did it makes peace with all the gulf Arab states with the 

Sunni States and the reason it's so important, right? And I know you're going to love this and you probably lecture on it, the lie that has been told since this creation of the state of Israel is that Would be peace. If Israel. We just make a deal with its Arab neighbors, right? And that, unless it did this when it's Palestinian neighbors, and if it is long as it did that, right, everything would go away. But if it didn't do that, the Arab world would never make deals and recognize Israel. Well, let's go back. We got the Camp David Accord, and 78. See chips, done that. We have a deal with Jordan. Jordan has done that and now you've got the United Arab Emirates and to buy the whole thing in on that. Actually you can go in there now and you can flights are allowed and they're not A total partnership and another trade notes important because there seemed to be one group of people led by a government called Hamas. And I guess you could argue if I talk to but but who are who are standing not 

just an opposition to Israel, but wishing its entire obliteration. Yeah, of course, I like we have two very honest conversations about what the Arab leadership used to want. Not anymore across the board is worth seeing but certainly the Palestinian leadership. We have to start having honest conversations. Nations. I think this is part of Jewish Pride to be quite honest. It's having very kind of honest and reflective conversations about our experience, our identity being able to kind of pick through the Mets. Whether it's the myth of kind of the golden age of American Jewelry, or whether it's something else. Right. And there is this meth and particularly as you said that we have a partner for peace. There was no partner for peace. I mean we even saw in the last couple of weeks when Kandi was being handed out in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank when Israelis were murdered. I'm sorry. That's unacceptable. That is not a partner for peace. There is literally no one for us to talk to you. 

I remember having a conversation with someone who worked very closely with Jeremy corbyn. And this was kind of before The Crisis began in the UK, Jeremy corbyn being the former leader of the British Labour party. This person said to me, Israel should talk to Hamas. And I was like, but how can you talk to people who don't want to talk to you like that is kind of the point, right? You and I are sitting around in conversation because we both agreed to come and have a conversation with one another I couldn't be under T. Moderate with Adam o Adam Epstein. If you hadn't invited me, I would just be sitting here in my office on myself. It's a good thing. We're not arguing over land. So, you know, this is the thing. It's we have to have honest conversations. There is no partner for peace. And yes, hopefully there where she there will be and I think that Israel should still be doing. Whatever it can do to create conditions, that will create peace. But we have to be honest. There is a, the leadership 

of the Palestinian people is I think outrageous. And also there is a Jew hatred problem with in Palestinian society. That is another thing that people have great difficulty with, you know, people don't want to be offensive. They don't want to generalize. And of course, not every single Palestinian person hates Jews and Jesus was really is, but through the ADL dead too. Kind of a poll on Jew, hatred in different societies. I believe in Palestinian Society. The culture is like 93%. Well, I mean there are, there are there, I mean, but they're indoctrinated. So is everyone ready? So is everyone, the Germans, the Americans, the British, the French, the whoever's it's all indoctrination. No one is born hating. Everyone is socialized. But these are things that we don't want to admit because we in many ways we want to be paternalistic. We want to you know, feel sorry, but actually we need to start holding, Palestinian leadership and Palestinians. Society to the same standards and critiquing. Yeah, 

that are terrible student hand out candy when someone is murdered, that is kind of the basics that we should be expecting. But I think that these are conversations that we have to start having and I think that Jews all over the world, particularly American Jews have to start waking up to the reality of our situation. And it's not great. Unfortunately. No, and I think it's also important in this. This is getting in the weeds a bit, but I know it's important that we do the americanist left. Addition, which is hostile to Israel. As it relates to, let's say the Palestinians is also rooted in the isms, the victim, like isms of the movement, which is to say the phobias, which is to say, which is a horrible thing. Is that you can't say anything bad about Palestinian anti-Semitism because that's islamophobic and God forbid, you'd be islamophobic. When what you're saying is, Well, then you're okay with the murder of Jews which, by the way, is as abhorrent, but also, Your ass, you're placing what 

you should not be, you know, a hatred of one group as preeminent and much more important than the destruction of another. I mean, there's a sickness to that as somehow what's okay to be in Semitic, but you can't be as long as it's not islamophobic to say that. It's also that, you know, I mean, my God, you can't even have a conversation and we might differ on this. I'm a very, very secular. I'm basically an agnostic, but I identify as a Jew, and I'm a Zionist, right? I mean, if you say something about Christianity, I mean, It's you get flogged. No pun intended. If you say that there's crazy shit in the Quran because there is no one wants to hear it too bad because there is, these are crazy books. And you know what, crazy people take that shit to Annex. I think it's also, it's I mean, for me, it's I'm less interested in what the source material says. It's more about how people are acting today. And listen what we're seeing in the Middle East, with the abrahamic cards is incredibly hopeful. 

It's incredibly inspired. It is traditional enemies. Are able to come together and maybe the weather. They're coming together ideologically or economically, I don't think it really matters but it does basically have this basic treatment that we should the spacing basic Behavior, basic treatment. We should be expecting and some people will say, well, you know, the Palestinians are oppressed and therefore, they can operate within the same guidelines. The reality is we all have to operate within within a framework of kind of acceptable behavior. And as I said, handing out, candy is not acceptable. It's not acceptable to celebrate the murder of, you know, even your enemy, that's not appropriate. And these are not, you know, this really is that murdered or not military targets necessarily, they are civilians, you know, what happened in bnei Brak? And other places was so horrendous and it's celebrated and I think again, we have to start having very honest. Conversations and conversations were, 

were able to disagree with one another and conversations where we're able to critique. But this idea that we're not allowed to say, you know, certain things about certain groups like and it's like when a bit stiff Oops, it certain Society certain Behavior, but I think it's for me. It's about it's about honest conversations, but honest conversations about our experience honest conversations about how we're treated by society. And yes that also includes the Palestinians and I think again, I am supportive of creating a Palestinian state. I'm for two State solution. But you know, just as we would expect certain kind of just as we would expect Israel to meet certain conditions to can expedite this process. We would also expect that of the Palestinians. There are two kind of groups here that should be coming together. But I think the interesting thing about the Abraham Accords, the question I want to be asking and it's and this is not something I really speak publicly on. It's rather just something 

I'm interested in. What is it going to? What is the impact of the Abraham Accords on the Palestinians going to be? Because for a long time in the Middle East we saw you know Palestine was almost like it was something bigger than the Palestinians. It was like a cult. And it was about, you know, defeating the Zionist entity. It was about reclaiming and but what's going to happen know that, that is really no longer the case and that many countries are making peace. And, you know, I think there's a danger that, the Palestinians might get left behind and I think we all should recognize that. So, tragedy for the, for the Palestinian people who, you know, require a change in their circumstances. It's a tragedy if they're left behind, but I think ultimately, we have to kind of, you know, point to their leadership and their governments as to why this is happening. Happened with but it's a tractable. The whole thing is a tragedy. Yeah, I mean, I think I've ever tried it is and I think, you know, 

I mean again, I mean, you know, most people don't know their history in the foe. Great poses. Real were Egypt and Jordan and Syria, and you know, I mean, I mean, you know, there was really until the 67 war. Did the whole settlor territories or occupied territory thing become come into play. People forget 48 War, you know, where you and sanctioned Israel and the Arab Nations attacked it immediately following I think you're right. And I think that again, you know, was a historian at school. I tell my students history as the most of whatever you're trying to understand the world. History is the most important thing that you have to kind of explore because there is an entire context. So that people are not aware that there was never a Palestinian State people are, just not aware of that, people think there was. So we have to be combating, huge amount of kind of false narrative, but really people should be doing their homework, and I guess that means doing it from reliable sources. You can't 

just be going to kind of like Al Jazeera. And there you have to kind of be looking at different sources and understanding, actually, what happened. And I think that there is, there's a lot of Confusion And there's a lot of rewriting of History, which I personally cannot abide. We can't rewrite history, history is history. We have to tell it, understand it and then move forward and whatever we think is appropriate but we can't pretend that happen. Yeah, I mean the whole thing. I mean my God, Roman occupied Palestine, I mean, who do you think lived in Palestine now? Hands are called Jews. But also called Palestine was a name was no an indigenous day. That was the Canaan and then it was the kingdoms of Israel and Judah became Judea and yes, Palestine is kind of a geographical designator, but there was never a country why it's going to put your cane and then Judea. That's right. Absolutely. And it's not see, there shouldn't be a country. I believe there should be but we have to tell the truth. 

We're not going to lie to justify it. We're going to understand our history, and I think a lot of these These conversations, aren't they say easy people but I think that's what we have to be doing. And that's kind of what my work tries to do it. From a Jewish perspective, get people to kind of explore their history and really understand. What does it mean to be a Jew? What does it mean to be Jewish today? How do we express that? How do we feel that? How do we embody it? Yeah, I mean an end to that point, you know, I'm assuming that, you know, being your be that your political Leanings are left. Is that fair to say? Yeah, but yes, definitely is that. Is that how you would describe it? Yeah, there's definitely certain things. I'm kind of probably more center right on the. Yeah, I think in general, I'm center-left. Although I got to say, I would know, never describe myself as a progressive. Even though my dollies are still Progressive. I still believe in Progressive values, but I don't identify 

with that specific movement or world anymore because they have made it so unsafe to be Jewish there, so I can perspective as that. I'm not going to stay where I'm not wanted. Wanted basically, I don't blame you and they absolutely have. And I, well, I'm not a progressive. I'm a dirty moderate. I'm not a member of either party and I absolutely disdain the Labour party for a lot of reasons. I probably when I lived in a probably a Tory anyway, but but that's not just because of what the labor party's done. Tell everybody listening. So this is interesting about why Jeremy corbyn was so dangerous because I think Americans and they said we don't have just American audiences certainly, but we do have largely one. Don't understand that, imagine if the progressive leader, imagine it for any sanders wasn't Jewish. Or, I don't know. Imagine, if Rasheeda Talib, who's an anti-satellite took over the Democratic party. She is. So is ill on Willmar their anti-semites. I don't care what you say. That's 

what they are and not you. But that's that's it. And they decided they would be representing a Progressive Party. Tell everybody about Corbin and why he lost in the biggest Landslide and what he represented in aspired to be. Be so carbon has a long history of far left politics. And I think the Americans are not as familiar with what that means. And I mean far left like really historically, but he's always been what we call a backbencher. So he was a member of parliament, but he never happened at possession. He was always kind of, literally sitting at the back and if you ever could have seen pictures of parliament, the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition set at the front opposite each other and then it kind of goes back. So he used to sit at the back. I'm basically after The 2015, general election, Labour and last and generally in Britain, when a leader loses their leave and someone else kind of gets a go. Yeah. Well precisely. Yes. It's like no one to leave the party and there 

is basically there was an internal Vault and there were people who kind of put forward Corbin not because they necessarily want them to be leader. But because they wanted to start a conversation because up to that point. It had been very blurry. Right, so we call it new labor, which is much more center-left. So Tony, Blair and Gordon Brown. Ed miliband. They were the kind of leaders who were much more Center left and Corbin can have represented a different perspective. So he was put forward to start a conversation and he won eventually and right from the beginning, the British Jewish Community was very concerned because I said historically, he had been very far left and the Jewish Chronicle, which is kind of one of the main Jewish newspapers. Did our headline. Page, that was, like, seven questions for carbon, and it was basically being like, what are your views on Israel? He had previously referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as friends. So we were very concerned and then it basically started 

to go from there and it snowballed, and he refused to believe that he was a Jewish. Which absolutely he is a racist. And it also is very problematic because korriban it all, they are progressive. They are kind of They're part of the Zeitgeist of modern politics. So people who are against the Tories, people who are against austerity people who were 400, you know, human rights working class rights minority rights, all supported carbon. So we had this huge swelling of support for this man who was also a Jew hater and kind of the combination of these two things, really led to the renormalization of Jew hatred and the moving back of Jew hatred from the fringes to the center. And this is what is happening in America. It's the same. You're upset right when you said earlier after the war, after kind of from the 1960s onwards. There was a change in America. Do hitch, never went away, but it was in the fringes. This was the same in the UK and Europe. It was mostly in the fringes of society. And what 

Corbin help do was bring it back to the mainstream. And that's why he's so dangerous and he did it can have coached in modern Progressive politics. So again, what we spoke about earlier, if you're a good person, if you're, you know, for working class for minority rights against colonization. For the equal distribution of wealth, whatever you want to say, then you are kind of also very often anti-zionist. Which as you said is a form of Jew hatred. So that's why he's so dangerous, but I've got to say it was hell. It was absolutely Helen Burton. I mean, I joined Twitter specifically to join the fight against Corbin and I had death threats. I had people contact. They work in Hong Kong to try and get me fired. I was it we it was just a really horrendous experience and I think That we experience then, what many American Jews are feeling now, and it's this big question mark. We grew up. And if we went to synagogue and in the synagogue, every Shabbat, there was a for the queen. I Know It Off by 

heart because we we heard it every week and this is the case across the Commonwealth, are the, I guess her the Queen's realm. So there was prayers for the royal family. We worked very hard to be British citizens, you know, we were foreign and yes, you entered into our house and it was like Harry Potter and we were different but we were very hard to be like everyone else and to fit in and to be accepted. And what they showed us. Is that despite our best. Efforts, we were still not accept it. And I think that is something American Jews are waking up to. And actually, I find that in a. It's tragic, and it's in some ways horrifying. But also, it's quite freeing. It's like, okay? Then that's the situation. I'm not going to try anymore. I'm going to be a British person. I'm going to take part in British, Civic life, but I'm not going to bend over backwards to be accepted by the society, which clearly many parts of it. Don't we have to remember you mentioned that Landslide Jeremy corbyn. Lost 

the 2019 election. December 2019. Yeah, but 10 million, British people still voted for him. That was a third of the electorate. You know, that's a huge percentage of people in Britain voted for carbon and it was a huge wake-up call. And again, we have many wonderful allies in Britain. Many non-jewish people stood with the Jewish community and there were people in labor movement to, but it was a sea change and it was a wake-up call to be like, oh, maybe we're not as accepted. As we thought we were, I have a friend. I don't want to name them because I can't name them, but while London, I worked with him. He was from Yorkshire and right and and he's the, you know, it play a Saxon little bit when I met him. He was a young labor Aficionado, you know, when I was guys working class, you know, talked about clipping, a Sainsbury's coupons, you know, the whole thing and he, he's gay too over the time. Since I've left there, he is a acted. He is working for a Tory memories that we become a tour. Why 

he's working for Tory Member of Parliament. And and I said, what the hell and he said, Adam, he's not Jewish. He said, the Labour party is crawling with anti-semites and he's, yeah, you didn't know. He said, I I, you know, he's La Jewish friends and whatever. But regardless, if he does, I mean, isn't, you know, still English isn't that many Jewish friends? He said, I couldn't believe the anti-Semitism I was seeing and hearing and I mean for this guy to go to the right. I mean you talk about inversions. I'm he's crazy. I mean, I'm glad he's good. He's done conservative. But but I never would have dreamt of but literally that's what he said to me. This is a gentile Guy saying that this isn't something like oh it's in your kishkes and my grandmother once told me no, this is like this to Yorkshire, you know, probably never met a genie, you know, I think what we're seeing is that lots of people and especially Jewish people have become politically homeless because you know, there's people who 

might not necessarily want to vote conservative, which is fine, but there's certainly Jewish people. No Hill. No longer vote. Labor, I don't think I'll ever vote Labour ever again. I used to vote Labour. I don't think I'll live there because and I think that this is something Jews have to start doing. We have to start remembering. We're very I don't know. I mean, I think it really depends on the leader. I didn't vote Tory. In the last election. I spoiled my ballot, to be honest, because I was like, there's no one who I have I've been previously and been Freeman's voting record. I voted Labour SMP. I voted conservative back in the day years ago. Yes, they're the people that I wouldn't vote for them anymore. I'm not for Scottish independence, but and I think we have to start remembering. I found it honestly astonishment, and a little embarrassing that there were Jews who so quickly rejoined, the Labour party. So during carbon-carbon ISM a lot of Jews left and there were Jews who very quickly 

rushed to rejoin. When Corbin went, and then secure Stormer became leader. And I my perspective was less just Wait a minute. Have a little, honestly, I have a little bit of self-respect. Don't rush to go back to the party when they've made the party. So, like, horrible for you. So, so, excuse me unwelcoming. And I think that Jews need to start remembering. And we, so often are so grateful for the bare minimum of respect. And my second book, which is coming out in October. I'm talking about internalized anti jewishness and how you know, we internalize the non-jewish world's A has of us, and I write about the American experience that corner Rabbi from Los Angeles, who said, yes, you know, the American Jewish experience has led to kind of a Rosier of Jewish culture, but it's worth it because look how well were treated. It's like honestly Rabbi have a little bit of self-respect because it is so shameful that you just said that we should not be tolerating, kind of cultural. Aroha just to be 

accepted. We shouldn't be rushing back to the labor party before we've given them in a minute to deal with their problem. I think your star had great intentions. But I don't think it's really been a successful process. I think the Labour party is still crawling with Jew hatred and I also will, I think it's about for me pride is about having boundaries and self-respect and self-esteem. And, you know, not holding on to pay necessarily but not necessarily forgetting. I'm not going to forget what carbon it all dead, and I think American Jews have to wake up. Truly, they do. Well, I think, you know, again, the two biggest voting blocks and the most to, of most loyal Loyal voting blocs the Democratic party, which I was once a member of our Jews and blacks and largely. I was the reason that is, is it goes back to FDR and, you know, ended earlier than that immigration, you know, in the Republicans being the party of big business, even though it was different a little more complicated than, but 

still, you know, the Bastion of waspey America, the Bankers Insurance, white shoe salesman, and we know we weren't welcome in the club, but I think that Joe Biden is a test case because he's maybe the last time that you Because of his 50-year history and commitment Israel as a senator, you know, and then vice-president you this is maybe the last time that a democratic nominee won't have to kowtow to leftish anti-zionist zealots. Who are, I still think smaller in number but louder than they should be? Yeah. This is the thing. It's, but it's not really about number because it's about the the people who really hate Jews. I think it's small in number, but it's the rest of the population. Who has already been socialized into thinking about choosing certain way because Jew hatred is just kind of deeply embedded and everywhere, but there are people who can be convinced. Either way. We can convince them through education, but also kind of Jew hater is can convince them. Also. It's about. It's about 

having it's about your loneliness. It's not about number, you know, I think the number of people who were really as hard left as Corbin were very strangle, but he created something and he It's something where everyone felt that. Wow. This is the future and this is amazing. And, you know, his slogan was for the many, not the few. And on Twitter. We used to see it for the many, not the Jew, and it is that is what it was and Britain. And I know that America has its own kind of specificity, but I think you're going to say join the carbon experience. I was screaming and America. I was saying, wake up because this is coming for you. This is not a British problem. This is a left problem. It's a global problem you getting other Places and I think Americans are experiencing versions of it now, Canadians as well. You know, Chile South America are many, many different places and we have to wake up to the threat that specially the Jew hatred and pauses particularly on the left. And again, oh, yeah, 

I'm sure left. I'm not saying this as someone who is, right? When I think there's a perception that when Jews talk about the left. We're actually Super 8. When you're not real, I'm not writing either. I am dead center and I have a lot of centre-left positions. I said, I would probably just be Tory in England because Tory is more. You know, conservative moderate Democrat. Yeah, for sure. But I think we have to wake up and we start again having two of these difficult conversations and I guess what it requires us for us to be able to have self-esteem to step outside, groupthink, and step outside the communities that we found ourselves in. As you said, a lot of Jews, I think. Historically globally. Jews are on the left. Yeah, center-left other parts, the left but we're that is where we have been. And I think that we have to be able to step outside these kind of homes that we've made ourselves. If we find them no longer safe for Jews, and I, that sounds kind of obvious, but there's many Jews, 

who don't there's many Jews who will alter themselves. And we're seeing the snow with kind of Jewish, anti-zionism and internalized anti jewishness Jews, who will warp and change themselves to be accepted but they're never going to be accepted right now and interesting people know, you know it with Russia and Ukraine in the news one of the things that the Soviet Union did because you know, even though they obviously an awful totalitarian regime, they often prided themselves on their Sort of bogus Marxist Utopia inclusion. And if you were Jewish, you had Jew on your passport, but be, but you had Jus, which was supposed to be a sign that even though you couldn't have synagogue Bar Mitzvah video communism. There's no religion, right? But, but that you had you to designate that. We actually love you. You're a Jew. That's also, the very complex thing about could have jewishness. And that part of the world is because it was, it was really a nation. It was an ethnicity didn't view. It really is. 

Is religion. They viewed us as one of the other nations like Georgian and whoever else and so, yeah, it was a designator, but I think it's just about Jews need to. I'm going to say go back to Our Roots. I don't necessarily mean, you know, everyone make a yeah, but I mean, this kind of educationally we have to start from the beginning to tell our story. Who are we, where did we come from? The reality is were indigenous. People were a middle-eastern diasporic community because of the circumstances that we have endured, you know, we live in different parts of the world, but That's truly important and it's okay for Jews to disagree. We've always disagreed. We've always had to be in dialogue, but it's really important for us to, at least be, starting from a place of kind of basic knowledge. So, I think Jewish Education has to be of primary importance. So for us, you know, just to kind of bring it back to my book, Jewish pride is about Reclamation of Jewish identity. It's a rejection of the shame 

of Jew hatred because there is a difference between being shames and being ashamed. The non-jewish world tries to shame us, but we're going to build a barrier to, we're going to block their shame and we're not Going to become ashamed. And then, secondly, we're going to reject their definition of Jewish identity, because only Jews get to find your students. And let me just tell you a very quick story about that. So, last March, the BBC hosted a debate on live television. They be seeing be the British Broadcasting Corporation, you know, one of the most kind of prestigious broadcasting corporation's Americans know that because they binge watch their show. Okay, so they did a debate on. The question, was should Jews count as an ethnic minority. Should Jews count as an ethnic minority? The BBC was debating Jewish identity. The panel was five non-jews and one Jew that is wholly inappropriate. The only people who really get to defend Jewish identity, are Jews and and asking whether we can to sort 

of Alton. Hey, I mean they would never ask this. I mean if you like me and I are over there. Oh, I'm gobsmacked. Yes, crazy. This was the BBC. So it isn't, it's not fearing that you're trying to Define our identity there. Doing it in real time. This was them trying to decide who and what we are. That is the Jewish question. That is the question that raised in the 19th and 20th. Centuries. What are Jews and how do we deal with them? Know they're living in our society. That's right. And, you know, when you're with Jewish Pride, you're right. I like this whole Reclamation idea of Jewish identity and then the difference between shame and being ashamed is your is your next book? Basically a response to the fact that because there's been so much shame that's led to so much so many people being ashamed. They've internalized. Lies day. And is that what? You're? Yes, basically. So I have a chapter and Jewish poet rebuilding of people. My first book about internalized anti-jewish nurse and we speak 

about it and I speak about it kind of mostly from an anti-zionist perspective and I really had many conversations with Jews all over the world. And that is one of the main chapters they asked about when I was promoting the book and it just got me thinking that there's more to the story and there is a lot more and for, as long as there's there have been Jew hatred, there have been Jews have internalized and they Have worked themselves. They've changed themselves in order to be accepted. They denied themselves in order to be accepted. They have deployed their jewishness or in some cases their former jewishness. If they converted in the Middle Ages. Say to use jewishness as a weapon to kind of again. Be accepted. We're just people, we just want to be accepted by those around us. We've not had the luxury of the privileged. Let's be clear of living in our old land before 1948 for about 2,000 years. We were always in Exile. We were always living under the kind of the Yoke of foreign anti-jewish 

rulers, and that has impacted how we feel about ourselves. And I think it's about this book is not about shame. It's not about judging people. It's not about blaming people. It's about kind of throwing open these doors and letting the lighten. So we can have honest conversations. Yeah. Now, in the lgbtq spaces that you're in is. Do you find your space? As we can't, obviously can't speak for everybody. Are you finding do they? Rabbit, Israel. Do they not like it is it not an issue or they more interested in, you know, just kind of General British politics what's going on? I think that the Google the there's a specific stream and the lgbtq+ community that's kind of global. That is kind of, that is political and they are very, very anti Zionist. And they have framed Palestine as an lgbtq+ issue, which actually is. And the reason that Palestine is an lgbtq+ issue is because policy In society again, is murdering a depressing lgbtq+ people, but that doesn't matter. Again. This is about combating 

and defeating Israel. So every so often Eurovision was in Tel Aviv, and you had all of these organizations, lgbtq organizations calling for it to be canceled boycotting it. And it's pathetic because these are lgbtq plus people who are ignoring the hard-won lgbtq+ rights. That exist in Israel. And also they're endangering the Palestinian lgbtq+ Community by just ignoring their plight and completely glossing over it. So it's just another iteration of this modern Progressive politics. Not every lgbtq+ person, cares, of course, and that's great. But yeah, many to unfortunate. Yeah. Wow. Well Ben, it's really been an absolute pleasure. I think that your work is very unique. Now because you like the idea of Jewish Pride, but I think also I like the the idea of a secular politics that reclaims Jewish identity. But again without negating, you know, other people and also not create leading a chess board or a hierarchy of Oppression. You're just saying, this is where we are, and this is, this is 

long overdue and with the rising tide of anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel and Global uptick in violence against Jews. No, it's no longer. Oh, let me scream from the from the wings. It's an inflection point, and I think you've tapped into that. Beautifully, Ben's book is Jewish Pride rebuilding a people. It is available everywhere. I highly recommend it and thank you for joining us from the from Hong Kong this morning. You're a bad kid. You're a mensch to do it and I hope to have you back to talk about your next book. Yes. I can't wait. Wonderful. Thank you for having me.