John Pavlovitz

John Pavlovitz is a writer, pastor, and activist from Wake Forest, North Carolina. 
John was one of our very first guests on Dirty Moderate over 2 years ago, and we were thrilled to spend time with this deep thinking, generous, loving, and spirited human again. 

A 25-year veteran in the trenches of local church ministry, John is committed to equality, diversity, and justice—both inside and outside faith communities. His work is a testament to finding meaning not only in our politics but in our lives. 

John’s latest book, “Worth Fighting For” is a primer for all things human, humane and compassionate. John knows it’s hard to always stay good but that’s no excuse for not trying. His latest book is aptly subtitled “Finding Courage and Compassion When Cruelty is Trending.” Adam and John have a searching, moving discourse about all of these essential ideas and more. 

Thanks for helping us save democracy one episode at a time!

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Transcript

00:00:55.667 --> 00:00:56.307
Dirty Moderates.

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I'm very excited to welcome

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back to the show somebody I

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consider a dear friend of the show,

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someone who joined us in our infancy,

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in our youth, John Pavlovitz.

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Many of you know him,

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who've been with us since the beginning,

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and many of you know him

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who have not yet heard him

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on this program,

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who have since joined us in

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the two and a half years we

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have been trying to save

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democracy and cleanse our politics,

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you might say.

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John Pavlovitz is a writer, pastor,

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an activist from Wake Forest,

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North Carolina.

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And he is a 25-year veteran

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in the trenches of the

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local church ministry.

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He's committed to justice

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and equality and diversity.

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And his work, while political,

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speaks to more meaning in our lives,

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who we are, how we treat each other.

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Sounds just remotely

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spiritual or even vaguely theological,

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but it really isn't because

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it connects the dots.

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His latest book,

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is out he's a widely

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published author but his

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latest book worth fighting

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for is yet another

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testament to john's basic

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decency and goodness and

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you know he gives us a

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primer not just how to

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behave uh in politics not

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just how to behave in the

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uh in the combat that is

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right versus left but how

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to behave as people i'm

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excited for you to hear my

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conversation with john pavlovitz

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John Pavlovitz,

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it's so good to have you back.

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You too, my friend.

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How are you today?

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I'm great.

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You know, in the years,

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so it has been two and a

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half years since we've met.

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Obviously, a lot has changed.

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When we last saw you,

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you had a health scare that you overcame.

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So I congratulate you.

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You're in good health, good shape,

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I'm assuming?

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Yeah.

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I'm feeling well.

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Thank you.

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Yeah,

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it was a little bit of a detour there,

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but it was, you know,

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really a great season

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altogether in just the

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things that I learned there,

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but feeling physically really well.

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So I really appreciate you asking.

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Yeah, I just want to make sure, you know,

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health being the most

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important thing that you're well.

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We're so glad that you're here.

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And speaking of health, you know,

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as I mentioned in my introduction,

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your book, folks, which is out now,

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it's called Worth Fighting For.

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Finding Courage and

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Compassion When Cruelty is Trending.

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It reads like a primer for

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how to just not be an asshole.

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Or let me put it a different way,

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how to be a good person.

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Your previous book was what

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we talked about last time you were here,

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If God is Love, Don't Be a Jerk.

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I think tracks with this.

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But this time you're doing

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things like big concepts,

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resisting tribalism,

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learning how to love better,

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how to love toxic people at a distance,

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so on and so forth.

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But given that we're in this phase

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And I want to start with tribalism.

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We're in this really,

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really tribal place in our society.

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And, you know,

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I know we follow each other.

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We share a lot of same values.

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I mean,

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I think you might arguably be more

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liberal in the doctrinal sense than I am,

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but I think we both care

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about humanity and democracy.

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We know the threat of Trumpism.

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We lock arms on plenty.

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In your chapter on resisting tribalism,

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I wanted to read it because

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I think it speaks to an

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authenticity that a lot of

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people who are so-called

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fighting this fight

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are not living up to or maintaining, okay?

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This is from Resisting Tribalism,

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the chapter.

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It reads,

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our convictions and doctrines and

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moral codes only exist to

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the extent that we are

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willing and able to incarnate them.

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Jesus set the table

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Jesus set the table he does

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because his heart compels him to.

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Once in a while,

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we act our way into belief.

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We do something that leads

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us to a revelation or

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alters our worldview.

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More often, though,

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our moral center propels us

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into the world, orients us,

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directs our eyes, animates our beings.

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If you want to know what you

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really believe,

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play back this day in

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reverse in your head,

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and that will tell you.

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It certainly told the people

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you interacted with.

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In other words,

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if you're a person of faith,

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you can't have a bigger

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table with a tiny God.

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And before you speak, I want to say,

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it made me think of Maya

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Angelou's great quote,

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and I'm paraphrasing, you know, you,

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no matter how people think or engage,

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no matter what you do,

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people will always remember

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how you made them feel.

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Right.

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So let's open with that.

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Cause I think, again,

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I think the depth of

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meaning here is very important about

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not just what we're fighting

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for politically,

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but what we're fighting for

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as humane beings with

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agency and hopefully with moral clarity.

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Yeah, Adam,

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I think that's the heart of all of this,

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that I think what tribalism

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does and what the state of

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our politics is,

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is that people are leading

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with what they claim to value.

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But then when we look at the

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legislation they might

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support or how they treat people,

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those things don't align.

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And so it's

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The writing is trying to

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help people get back to the

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idea that someone should be

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able to look at my life and

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experience me as a human

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being and retrofit what I believe.

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They should reverse engineer

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rather what I believe.

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They should be able to say, oh,

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that makes sense because he

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treats me this way or he

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responds this way.

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Right.

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And so it's trying to get

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people out of the sort of

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self-labeling and really do

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some introspective work on

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what is the yield of my life?

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What are people experiencing

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when they rub shoulders with me,

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when they encounter me on social media?

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And as you know, it's a daily,

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almost hourly battle to

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make sure that my conduct

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is aligning with what I

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actually think I believe.

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And so that's kind of the

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heart of it for me.

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Yeah, I mean, I think as you know, A,

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the kind of work you've done in your life,

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you know,

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which has been about meaning and

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about important activism

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and really trying to live up,

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I guess you could even say

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spiritually or

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theologically even to the word,

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to the Christ word, you know,

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without corrupting it.

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Social media, as we know,

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and we have to spend so much time on it,

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really, especially Twitter is like 10,

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15% of the country.

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All of this is to say that we are in a,

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there's a vast middle in this country.

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And I was talking about this with Don,

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my great producer before the show,

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who you know.

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I find we are in a conundrum, okay?

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And I'm going a little bit

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narrower now into politics, okay?

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So we have an election where, yet again,

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we have a rematch that 70%

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of the country doesn't want,

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that is not a partisan poll.

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They just don't want it.

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But that's where we are,

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and we have to live with

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the choices that we have.

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It's okay to say that Biden

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is older and Biden may –

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be as fit as a fiddle as he once was.

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I certainly don't think he's senile.

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Trump nonetheless remains a

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menace to democracy and all

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the things we believe.

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But the thing I'm struggling

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with is if you look at

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these two people and you

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don't really like either of

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them and you opt to choose someone else,

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and I'm not even suggesting Bobby Kennedy,

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who I'm not a fan of.

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This speaks to values and

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politics together and the real world.

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People are frustrated.

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People are in the center

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And we've grown a lot because of this.

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I'm not hawking for anybody.

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I'm saying, though,

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isn't it my right as a

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Democratic citizen to feel

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as valued and not judged if

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I opt not to choose one of these people?

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What's your choice on that?

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Again, I am not backing Trump at all.

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I have voted.

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I voted for Joe Biden.

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There's a lot of things I don't like.

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There are a lot of things I do like.

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You don't have to agree with

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your president on everything.

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But

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If I say, hey,

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I want to write in Nikki

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Haley because I really

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would have liked her.

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Isn't that part of being a democracy?

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Why are people, what's wrong with that?

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I mean, okay,

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so I just want to speak to you on that.

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Sure, I think, Adam,

00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:05.942
when I started this journey

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as a pastor in a local

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church and I was writing

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about family and faith and

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just issues around being a pastor,

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but not speaking directly

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into politics at all

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because I was on staff at a church.

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And it was only when Trump

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started his campaign and I

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began seeing what was

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happening in the

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evangelical world that I

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felt compelled to speak

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more explicitly into that.

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And so that ties into this

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because I think I decided then,

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I needed to ask Christians

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to vote strategically

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rather than historically or emotionally,

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not just the way they had always voted,

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but to vote in a way to

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protect us from what I felt

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was a growing existential

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crisis in Trump.

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And so that's basically where I am.

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You know, I share...

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the long that people have

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something better than the

00:09:56.078 --> 00:09:57.120
two party system.

00:09:57.360 --> 00:09:58.841
But I truly do believe that

00:09:58.981 --> 00:10:00.283
if Trump gets a second term,

00:10:00.363 --> 00:10:01.683
we'll essentially have a

00:10:01.823 --> 00:10:03.105
one party system and

00:10:03.245 --> 00:10:04.746
anything that we aspire to

00:10:04.866 --> 00:10:06.788
have or to work toward will

00:10:06.828 --> 00:10:08.090
be virtually impossible.

00:10:08.629 --> 00:10:10.130
And so it's really the

00:10:10.191 --> 00:10:12.230
timing of this particular

00:10:12.711 --> 00:10:14.272
election and what's at stake.

00:10:15.211 --> 00:10:17.113
I'm trying to have people

00:10:17.173 --> 00:10:18.572
think about playing the

00:10:18.633 --> 00:10:21.453
movie forward past November 5th and say,

00:10:21.614 --> 00:10:22.654
if Trump is in power,

00:10:23.174 --> 00:10:24.875
whose lives are going to be better?

00:10:24.975 --> 00:10:26.076
Who's going to be safer?

00:10:26.115 --> 00:10:27.135
Who's going to feel more

00:10:27.576 --> 00:10:28.817
seen and more protected?

00:10:29.157 --> 00:10:30.256
And with the human and civil

00:10:30.297 --> 00:10:31.878
rights rollbacks we've already seen,

00:10:32.518 --> 00:10:33.298
It simply feels

00:10:33.379 --> 00:10:35.700
irresponsible to make that

00:10:36.019 --> 00:10:37.260
one of the possibilities.

00:10:37.341 --> 00:10:38.100
And so the only way to

00:10:38.181 --> 00:10:39.761
remove that possibility is

00:10:39.802 --> 00:10:42.124
to vote Democrat at this place and time.

00:10:42.803 --> 00:10:43.364
As someone who's a

00:10:43.423 --> 00:10:45.164
registered independent and

00:10:45.184 --> 00:10:46.385
has been for my whole life,

00:10:46.947 --> 00:10:47.667
that's my heart,

00:10:47.866 --> 00:10:49.227
is to make sure that we can

00:10:49.288 --> 00:10:50.889
preserve the best parts

00:10:50.948 --> 00:10:52.710
about what America aspires to be.

00:10:53.501 --> 00:10:53.721
Yeah.

00:10:54.081 --> 00:10:55.363
Well, I think this is a very good point.

00:10:55.383 --> 00:10:55.582
Look,

00:10:55.644 --> 00:10:57.924
I'm in a state part of my identity on

00:10:57.965 --> 00:10:58.445
Never Trump.

00:10:58.586 --> 00:11:01.388
I want to hear it explained in those terms,

00:11:01.408 --> 00:11:02.828
because I do think that

00:11:02.889 --> 00:11:04.710
people are wrestling, you know,

00:11:04.789 --> 00:11:06.471
and you know, struggling, like you knew,

00:11:06.490 --> 00:11:07.692
you know, the work you did in

00:11:08.427 --> 00:11:09.606
in the world of faith, you know,

00:11:09.626 --> 00:11:10.607
people struggle with their

00:11:10.628 --> 00:11:12.427
choices and they're not all bad people.

00:11:12.847 --> 00:11:14.048
Speaking of that, you know,

00:11:14.129 --> 00:11:16.208
Trump probably at this point,

00:11:16.249 --> 00:11:18.149
I still think he's a good bet to lose.

00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:20.269
I mean, by no means is the fight over,

00:11:20.770 --> 00:11:22.650
but there's a lot of things

00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:24.292
that I think make him, um,

00:11:27.845 --> 00:11:29.626
a very unattractive

00:11:29.667 --> 00:11:30.647
candidate for a lot of reasons.

00:11:30.667 --> 00:11:32.089
Even people that voted from twice,

00:11:32.129 --> 00:11:32.808
if you can believe it.

00:11:32.828 --> 00:11:34.210
I can't believe anybody voted from once.

00:11:34.551 --> 00:11:35.030
But there are people who

00:11:35.051 --> 00:11:35.932
voted from twice even

00:11:35.971 --> 00:11:36.611
wondering if they should

00:11:36.631 --> 00:11:37.312
vote from a third time.

00:11:37.352 --> 00:11:38.173
But there's a lot of people

00:11:38.234 --> 00:11:39.615
on the independent side who've had it.

00:11:40.274 --> 00:11:41.436
They're ex-conservatives or

00:11:41.456 --> 00:11:42.797
they're just independents, whatever.

00:11:43.437 --> 00:11:45.700
But Trump probably will get,

00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:47.881
by my estimates, 46% of the vote.

00:11:47.902 --> 00:11:49.482
That's kind of what he always got.

00:11:49.783 --> 00:11:51.684
Last time he got what was it, 75 million.

00:11:51.705 --> 00:11:54.287
46% of the country is not bad.

00:11:56.761 --> 00:11:59.244
46% of the country are not evil people.

00:11:59.244 --> 00:12:00.684
46% of the country are not

00:12:00.764 --> 00:12:02.947
people who shouldn't have a

00:12:02.966 --> 00:12:04.008
shot at redemption or

00:12:04.067 --> 00:12:06.428
shouldn't be viewed or

00:12:06.469 --> 00:12:07.389
valued in the same way.

00:12:07.690 --> 00:12:08.770
How do you deal with

00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:12.052
engaging people like that who, yes,

00:12:12.634 --> 00:12:13.193
I agree,

00:12:13.595 --> 00:12:15.155
you could be emboldening a true

00:12:15.196 --> 00:12:16.456
authoritarian and a menace.

00:12:17.198 --> 00:12:18.480
But understanding some of

00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:19.139
those people's concerns.

00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:20.100
When I say concerns,

00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:21.480
I don't mean I hate immigrants.

00:12:21.640 --> 00:12:22.380
That's not acceptable.

00:12:22.701 --> 00:12:23.361
I'm not talking about that.

00:12:23.761 --> 00:12:24.743
I'm talking about the things

00:12:24.763 --> 00:12:25.462
they wrestle with.

00:12:25.523 --> 00:12:26.943
Maybe it's their day-to-day lives.

00:12:27.043 --> 00:12:30.325
Maybe it's the way they were raised.

00:12:30.485 --> 00:12:31.645
Maybe it is just taxes.

00:12:31.686 --> 00:12:33.427
I mean, how do you think,

00:12:33.586 --> 00:12:34.767
what's the best way in your

00:12:34.846 --> 00:12:35.668
mind to engage?

00:12:35.687 --> 00:12:36.967
Because your book is a great primer,

00:12:37.028 --> 00:12:37.649
worth fighting for,

00:12:37.668 --> 00:12:38.688
because finding courage and

00:12:38.729 --> 00:12:40.250
compassion when cruelty is trending.

00:12:40.649 --> 00:12:41.490
Sometimes, right,

00:12:41.530 --> 00:12:43.130
the best way to mitigate

00:12:43.171 --> 00:12:43.951
cruelty is to be

00:12:43.991 --> 00:12:45.432
compassionate toward people

00:12:45.471 --> 00:12:46.493
who are also being cruel.

00:12:48.091 --> 00:12:48.610
Absolutely.

00:12:48.671 --> 00:12:49.871
I think it's important to

00:12:49.932 --> 00:12:51.633
remember that Trump

00:12:51.653 --> 00:12:52.592
supporters are not a

00:12:52.633 --> 00:12:54.274
monolith in the way that

00:12:54.453 --> 00:12:55.274
Christians are not.

00:12:55.374 --> 00:12:57.434
So I used to be part of a

00:12:57.495 --> 00:12:58.635
megachurch and I was on

00:12:58.696 --> 00:12:59.796
staff there and people

00:12:59.895 --> 00:13:01.157
might be driving by and say,

00:13:01.356 --> 00:13:03.118
I know what all those people are about.

00:13:03.697 --> 00:13:05.080
But when I began talking

00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:08.744
about LGBTQ equality and racial justice,

00:13:08.764 --> 00:13:09.926
it turned out there was a

00:13:10.005 --> 00:13:11.567
schism in that church

00:13:11.687 --> 00:13:12.828
because not everyone was

00:13:12.928 --> 00:13:13.931
fully on board with

00:13:14.071 --> 00:13:15.532
everything that was being taught.

00:13:16.052 --> 00:13:17.414
And I think we look at Trump supporters,

00:13:17.475 --> 00:13:18.676
it's really easy for us to

00:13:18.735 --> 00:13:20.138
throw them into a box just

00:13:20.197 --> 00:13:22.080
like it is for them to do to us.

00:13:23.942 --> 00:13:26.202
It's remembering that mass,

00:13:26.263 --> 00:13:27.602
that collective is made up

00:13:27.643 --> 00:13:28.923
of individual human beings

00:13:28.984 --> 00:13:30.303
with very different stories,

00:13:30.364 --> 00:13:31.345
very different churches

00:13:31.404 --> 00:13:33.684
they grew up in and life experiences.

00:13:33.865 --> 00:13:36.186
So I try to respect someone's road,

00:13:36.765 --> 00:13:37.706
even if I don't agree with

00:13:37.726 --> 00:13:38.626
their conclusions.

00:13:39.067 --> 00:13:41.028
And so interpersonally,

00:13:41.067 --> 00:13:43.469
that's a lot easier than collectively.

00:13:43.589 --> 00:13:45.048
It's much more challenging to look at

00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:48.549
a group of people and figure

00:13:48.610 --> 00:13:49.691
out how do I reach them.

00:13:49.870 --> 00:13:51.010
But one-on-one when I'm

00:13:51.071 --> 00:13:51.991
talking to another human

00:13:52.032 --> 00:13:52.851
being and I see their

00:13:52.892 --> 00:13:54.773
humanity and I remember it,

00:13:54.812 --> 00:13:56.633
then that's the best I can do.

00:13:56.852 --> 00:13:57.113
You know,

00:13:57.192 --> 00:13:58.474
I don't want to dehumanize

00:13:58.533 --> 00:13:59.714
because that is the heart

00:14:00.134 --> 00:14:01.115
of the worst of what we're

00:14:01.134 --> 00:14:02.095
seeing about religion and

00:14:02.134 --> 00:14:03.054
politics right now.

00:14:03.635 --> 00:14:05.115
Yeah, no, I think that's very true.

00:14:06.056 --> 00:14:08.216
I was raised a secular Jew,

00:14:08.297 --> 00:14:09.398
but I consider myself

00:14:09.817 --> 00:14:10.878
certainly culturally Jewish,

00:14:10.918 --> 00:14:12.379
but the philosophy that

00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:13.859
impacted me the most was Buddhism.

00:14:13.918 --> 00:14:14.599
And one of the things I

00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:16.240
learned from Buddhism, right, is that

00:14:17.068 --> 00:14:20.331
There's this, oh, God, make peace, not war,

00:14:20.392 --> 00:14:21.192
love everybody,

00:14:21.232 --> 00:14:23.033
which definitely can sound

00:14:23.053 --> 00:14:24.294
kumbaya or hokey.

00:14:24.796 --> 00:14:27.278
But what the best Buddhism

00:14:27.357 --> 00:14:29.200
teaches you as a philosophy is,

00:14:29.299 --> 00:14:31.682
not to be unrealistic,

00:14:32.241 --> 00:14:34.543
but it says that if you can

00:14:34.604 --> 00:14:36.265
be nice to one person every

00:14:36.306 --> 00:14:38.347
day and you can change them

00:14:38.427 --> 00:14:41.770
or engage them, that's the path to peace,

00:14:42.410 --> 00:14:42.650
right?

00:14:42.711 --> 00:14:44.592
So if I meet somebody I disagree with,

00:14:45.839 --> 00:14:48.399
if I can try to have a good faith argument,

00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.681
and we have so many bad faith arguments,

00:14:50.780 --> 00:14:51.020
right?

00:14:51.380 --> 00:14:51.600
You know,

00:14:51.660 --> 00:14:53.020
worthy debates that we need to

00:14:53.061 --> 00:14:53.642
have which end up

00:14:53.701 --> 00:14:54.881
dehumanizing or

00:14:55.701 --> 00:14:56.743
demoralizing other

00:14:56.783 --> 00:14:58.763
communities are often from

00:14:58.822 --> 00:14:59.663
people who are just such

00:14:59.724 --> 00:15:00.583
bad faith people.

00:15:00.644 --> 00:15:00.903
I mean,

00:15:01.024 --> 00:15:02.585
listening to Charlie Kirk or Tucker

00:15:02.625 --> 00:15:04.304
Carlson lecture people on

00:15:04.325 --> 00:15:05.926
morality is obviously ridiculous.

00:15:06.346 --> 00:15:07.566
But for example,

00:15:08.687 --> 00:15:12.508
I don't think that the idea, and I'm gay,

00:15:13.067 --> 00:15:14.928
and I'm certainly socially liberal,

00:15:15.284 --> 00:15:16.365
But I don't think the idea

00:15:16.385 --> 00:15:17.346
of like trans women in

00:15:17.386 --> 00:15:18.947
sports is a settled issue.

00:15:19.469 --> 00:15:20.369
I don't think the government

00:15:20.389 --> 00:15:21.090
should ban it.

00:15:21.730 --> 00:15:23.131
I don't think it's something

00:15:23.152 --> 00:15:24.592
that we shouldn't punch down about.

00:15:24.633 --> 00:15:25.474
But I think it's worth a

00:15:25.514 --> 00:15:26.754
national discussion that we

00:15:26.794 --> 00:15:27.634
don't always have.

00:15:28.216 --> 00:15:30.918
So your book speaks to this

00:15:31.198 --> 00:15:33.500
in what's called a relational cold war,

00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:36.383
which I thought we should dive into.

00:15:38.224 --> 00:15:40.025
You write, we don't talk anymore.

00:15:41.104 --> 00:15:41.563
This time,

00:15:41.624 --> 00:15:43.024
it was a 55-year-old mother of

00:15:43.065 --> 00:15:44.346
three from Madison, Wisconsin,

00:15:44.385 --> 00:15:46.187
referring to her estranged mother.

00:15:46.706 --> 00:15:47.947
But it's not a unique story.

00:15:48.427 --> 00:15:49.469
I hear these confessions

00:15:49.528 --> 00:15:51.409
dozens of times a day in

00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:53.811
some form or another.

00:15:54.051 --> 00:15:54.812
In the work I do,

00:15:54.871 --> 00:15:55.611
leading people through the

00:15:55.652 --> 00:15:57.692
minefields of relational turbulence,

00:15:58.134 --> 00:15:59.173
that's the pervasive and

00:15:59.193 --> 00:15:59.975
enduring truth I've

00:16:00.014 --> 00:16:00.774
witnessed over and over

00:16:00.815 --> 00:16:01.735
these past several years,

00:16:01.916 --> 00:16:03.756
a great what you call pulling away.

00:16:04.277 --> 00:16:05.357
We are at the threshold of

00:16:05.418 --> 00:16:06.557
our collective tolerance

00:16:06.577 --> 00:16:07.798
for interpersonal conflict

00:16:07.859 --> 00:16:09.240
and nearing a point of no return.

00:16:09.892 --> 00:16:11.052
There's only so many times

00:16:11.072 --> 00:16:12.672
you can attempt to contest

00:16:12.692 --> 00:16:13.633
someone's fantastical

00:16:13.653 --> 00:16:14.633
conspiracy theory with

00:16:14.673 --> 00:16:16.592
facts they refuse to acknowledge.

00:16:17.092 --> 00:16:18.273
Only so many terse and

00:16:18.332 --> 00:16:20.293
extended text exchanges you can endure.

00:16:20.813 --> 00:16:22.274
Only so many family meals

00:16:22.333 --> 00:16:24.254
punctuated by profanity you

00:16:24.274 --> 00:16:24.894
can sit through.

00:16:25.294 --> 00:16:26.514
Only so many talking point

00:16:26.534 --> 00:16:27.695
tirades your reserves of

00:16:27.735 --> 00:16:29.434
compassion and patience can sustain.

00:16:29.875 --> 00:16:30.816
Eventually the exhaustion

00:16:30.836 --> 00:16:31.836
takes over and the noise

00:16:31.875 --> 00:16:32.956
and bombast give way to

00:16:33.035 --> 00:16:34.155
distance and silence.

00:16:34.576 --> 00:16:35.836
The unfriending and ghosting

00:16:35.895 --> 00:16:36.797
and the disconnection

00:16:36.836 --> 00:16:39.356
slowly begin to fully separate.

00:16:41.109 --> 00:16:42.110
So beautifully said.

00:16:42.169 --> 00:16:43.530
Everyone should have this by their bed.

00:16:44.071 --> 00:16:46.032
But it speaks to where I was going.

00:16:46.231 --> 00:16:48.234
You know, if somebody comes to me and says,

00:16:48.254 --> 00:16:48.874
you know what, Adam,

00:16:48.894 --> 00:16:50.075
I've always supported gay rights.

00:16:50.095 --> 00:16:50.835
Let's use an example.

00:16:51.154 --> 00:16:52.135
I'm just having trouble with

00:16:52.176 --> 00:16:52.816
the trans thing.

00:16:53.017 --> 00:16:54.918
If they come out in a good faith way,

00:16:55.638 --> 00:16:57.538
I think your book shows us the way.

00:16:57.558 --> 00:16:58.200
Do you agree?

00:16:58.279 --> 00:16:59.341
Rather than saying, well, no,

00:16:59.380 --> 00:17:00.701
and then the Republicans hate you.

00:17:00.740 --> 00:17:01.442
In other words,

00:17:02.743 --> 00:17:03.523
discuss the kind of

00:17:03.682 --> 00:17:05.704
elegance of the bridge

00:17:05.744 --> 00:17:06.984
you're trying to provide here,

00:17:07.306 --> 00:17:07.885
the compassion.

00:17:09.263 --> 00:17:10.804
Yeah, I think the challenge, Adam,

00:17:10.903 --> 00:17:13.164
is that when we're having

00:17:13.204 --> 00:17:15.105
someone across from us, if we have some,

00:17:15.645 --> 00:17:15.865
you know,

00:17:15.905 --> 00:17:17.385
that's where this is all falling to.

00:17:17.506 --> 00:17:18.807
We're talking about politics

00:17:18.866 --> 00:17:20.846
and religion as these sort of big systems,

00:17:20.886 --> 00:17:22.728
but ultimately it filters

00:17:22.788 --> 00:17:25.008
down into relational fracture.

00:17:25.288 --> 00:17:27.048
And so that's, as I've been traveling,

00:17:27.088 --> 00:17:28.169
that's what I'm seeing over

00:17:28.189 --> 00:17:28.769
and over again.

00:17:28.868 --> 00:17:30.049
And what I remind people,

00:17:30.089 --> 00:17:30.950
someone might come to me

00:17:30.990 --> 00:17:32.069
and they're much more

00:17:32.109 --> 00:17:33.390
progressive and they'll say, oh,

00:17:33.410 --> 00:17:35.211
I'm grieving the loss of my family.

00:17:35.810 --> 00:17:37.231
because of what's happened

00:17:37.271 --> 00:17:38.192
since Trump arrived.

00:17:38.472 --> 00:17:39.814
But I have to remind them

00:17:39.973 --> 00:17:41.555
that the people that

00:17:41.694 --> 00:17:43.316
they're not speaking to are

00:17:43.435 --> 00:17:45.538
also grieving that loss.

00:17:45.637 --> 00:17:46.298
They're just telling

00:17:46.317 --> 00:17:47.199
themselves a different

00:17:47.259 --> 00:17:49.601
story about why that loss exists.

00:17:50.201 --> 00:17:51.442
And so it's realizing that

00:17:51.461 --> 00:17:52.682
there's a tremendous amount

00:17:52.742 --> 00:17:54.384
of grief and people are

00:17:54.443 --> 00:17:56.464
wrestling with really complex issues.

00:17:56.505 --> 00:17:58.686
And these are things we care deeply about,

00:17:58.727 --> 00:18:00.208
whether it's immigration or

00:18:00.627 --> 00:18:01.388
healthcare or the

00:18:01.449 --> 00:18:03.130
environment or gun violence,

00:18:03.549 --> 00:18:06.453
we're passionate because we should be.

00:18:06.574 --> 00:18:07.855
This stuff really matters.

00:18:08.036 --> 00:18:08.496
And so it's,

00:18:08.536 --> 00:18:10.919
can we all kind of gather in a

00:18:10.979 --> 00:18:12.381
place and have our most

00:18:12.580 --> 00:18:15.786
sober and most empathetic,

00:18:16.026 --> 00:18:17.047
curious selves?

00:18:17.287 --> 00:18:18.107
And I think you hit on

00:18:18.169 --> 00:18:19.509
something correct when

00:18:20.250 --> 00:18:22.511
It's we can't assign motive

00:18:22.551 --> 00:18:23.731
to people we have.

00:18:23.892 --> 00:18:24.913
And if they show us that

00:18:24.932 --> 00:18:26.333
they're still willing to

00:18:26.393 --> 00:18:27.554
listen to us and they're

00:18:27.614 --> 00:18:30.454
still trying to have that communication,

00:18:30.815 --> 00:18:32.095
then we should keep trying.

00:18:32.516 --> 00:18:33.175
I think, you know,

00:18:33.195 --> 00:18:34.195
the Charlie Kirk's of the

00:18:34.236 --> 00:18:35.396
world and those those

00:18:35.477 --> 00:18:37.616
voices don't speak for everyone,

00:18:37.676 --> 00:18:38.238
but they do.

00:18:39.298 --> 00:18:40.778
change the temperature of

00:18:40.818 --> 00:18:41.999
the conversation because

00:18:42.078 --> 00:18:43.659
everyone's so quick to kind

00:18:43.699 --> 00:18:44.619
of pull that trigger.

00:18:45.339 --> 00:18:46.779
And so that's what we need.

00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:47.800
We need to be kind of

00:18:47.861 --> 00:18:50.381
relentless in pursuing that

00:18:50.421 --> 00:18:51.342
connection with people.

00:18:51.382 --> 00:18:52.182
That's the only thing that's

00:18:52.221 --> 00:18:52.701
going to do it.

00:18:53.801 --> 00:18:55.123
No, I think that's right.

00:18:55.843 --> 00:18:57.523
John, though we've had you,

00:18:57.564 --> 00:18:58.243
it's been a while.

00:18:58.284 --> 00:18:59.443
I also want to go back

00:18:59.723 --> 00:19:00.763
because I think your

00:19:01.125 --> 00:19:02.664
principles and your work,

00:19:03.244 --> 00:19:04.306
obviously you're defined by

00:19:04.346 --> 00:19:05.965
your formative years and

00:19:05.986 --> 00:19:07.487
your life and all you've been through.

00:19:07.727 --> 00:19:08.846
Let's go back to the beginning.

00:19:09.335 --> 00:19:10.817
Your beginnings in Wake Forest.

00:19:10.836 --> 00:19:12.097
Tell everybody about your life,

00:19:12.117 --> 00:19:14.540
your early life, and how you came to,

00:19:14.560 --> 00:19:15.682
I mean,

00:19:15.781 --> 00:19:17.344
through Catholicism and the church

00:19:17.384 --> 00:19:18.065
and all those different

00:19:18.085 --> 00:19:19.385
things that some people may know.

00:19:19.405 --> 00:19:20.707
A lot of new people here are

00:19:20.767 --> 00:19:21.587
excited to hear from you.

00:19:22.048 --> 00:19:23.089
So let's go back and say,

00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:24.290
who is John Pavlovitz?

00:19:24.330 --> 00:19:25.512
Talk about your road here.

00:19:27.236 --> 00:19:28.436
Well, you know, yeah,

00:19:28.696 --> 00:19:30.778
I was raised in central New York,

00:19:30.897 --> 00:19:33.720
Catholic, Roman Catholic, Italian family.

00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:36.980
And my faith was a big part of my life.

00:19:37.121 --> 00:19:40.083
But that faith was, as for many people,

00:19:40.722 --> 00:19:42.884
that was a story of a God who loved me.

00:19:42.944 --> 00:19:44.164
But I also needed to be

00:19:44.705 --> 00:19:45.786
concerned about really

00:19:46.165 --> 00:19:47.307
ticking off that God.

00:19:48.027 --> 00:19:49.367
And as with many people,

00:19:49.567 --> 00:19:51.209
I began to drift away from

00:19:51.229 --> 00:19:52.829
that original faith story

00:19:52.869 --> 00:19:54.131
because I wasn't seeing God.

00:19:54.611 --> 00:19:55.991
the teachings of Jesus lived

00:19:56.152 --> 00:19:57.792
out as I hoped they would be.

00:19:58.173 --> 00:19:59.914
And so Drifted for a Bit was

00:19:59.974 --> 00:20:01.056
what I would call a hopeful

00:20:01.135 --> 00:20:03.096
agnostic and ended up going

00:20:03.117 --> 00:20:04.818
to college in Philadelphia

00:20:05.078 --> 00:20:07.101
and living in the heart of Center City,

00:20:07.141 --> 00:20:07.461
Philly.

00:20:07.941 --> 00:20:09.142
And that changed everything

00:20:09.201 --> 00:20:11.243
for me because it expanded my view of

00:20:11.784 --> 00:20:13.765
of the world, it got me out of the bubble.

00:20:13.944 --> 00:20:15.785
I began being immersed in

00:20:15.805 --> 00:20:17.865
diversity and I saw poverty.

00:20:18.205 --> 00:20:19.006
And Adam,

00:20:19.026 --> 00:20:21.126
I experienced these things not as

00:20:21.186 --> 00:20:22.827
intellectual exercises or

00:20:22.887 --> 00:20:24.307
political debates or

00:20:24.367 --> 00:20:25.628
theological discussions,

00:20:25.689 --> 00:20:26.528
but they were in the form

00:20:26.568 --> 00:20:27.808
of people's lives.

00:20:28.289 --> 00:20:30.369
And better stories that I got,

00:20:30.450 --> 00:20:32.111
those stories started to change me.

00:20:32.851 --> 00:20:34.151
And 10 years later,

00:20:34.551 --> 00:20:36.051
when I suddenly was pulled

00:20:36.092 --> 00:20:38.252
into the church through just volunteering,

00:20:38.313 --> 00:20:40.733
it was nothing that I had planned at all.

00:20:41.513 --> 00:20:42.874
I began working with teenagers,

00:20:43.115 --> 00:20:45.474
found I had a heart for adolescents,

00:20:45.535 --> 00:20:46.316
for trying to kind of

00:20:46.355 --> 00:20:47.296
steward them through this

00:20:47.435 --> 00:20:49.217
really turbulent time of life,

00:20:49.936 --> 00:20:51.616
and found myself leaving my

00:20:51.656 --> 00:20:53.317
full-time career as an art

00:20:53.357 --> 00:20:55.199
director to minister full-time.

00:20:55.919 --> 00:20:57.558
And it's then that I kind of

00:20:57.578 --> 00:20:58.859
began this journey of

00:20:59.619 --> 00:21:02.305
you know, larger churches, higher profile.

00:21:02.945 --> 00:21:06.211
And as that happened, two things happened.

00:21:06.332 --> 00:21:08.816
I grew in my love for the work I was doing,

00:21:09.116 --> 00:21:11.019
but I realized that I was different,

00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.163
that there were fundamental differences

00:21:14.684 --> 00:21:16.647
tensions between what I was

00:21:16.708 --> 00:21:17.788
feeling the teachings of

00:21:17.828 --> 00:21:19.009
Jesus were leading me to do

00:21:19.069 --> 00:21:20.692
as a pastor and the pastor

00:21:20.731 --> 00:21:21.752
I was expected to be.

00:21:22.314 --> 00:21:23.255
And so in my case,

00:21:23.295 --> 00:21:24.516
it was how much can I nudge

00:21:24.576 --> 00:21:25.538
those congregations?

00:21:25.577 --> 00:21:27.078
How much can I push a little bit?

00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:29.021
And finally got to the point

00:21:29.041 --> 00:21:30.182
where I felt I needed to

00:21:30.222 --> 00:21:31.523
speak explicitly about

00:21:32.125 --> 00:21:34.306
in matters of sexuality and

00:21:34.445 --> 00:21:36.586
gender equality and racial justice,

00:21:36.766 --> 00:21:38.067
and that created tensions.

00:21:38.686 --> 00:21:40.047
And to the point where when

00:21:40.146 --> 00:21:41.847
I went to a new church and

00:21:41.928 --> 00:21:42.948
I didn't have the equity of

00:21:43.028 --> 00:21:44.769
trust and the relational capital,

00:21:46.568 --> 00:21:48.150
I heard God calling me to

00:21:48.210 --> 00:21:49.269
leave that church and it

00:21:49.309 --> 00:21:50.329
came in the form of my

00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:51.990
pastor's voice saying, you're fired.

00:21:52.790 --> 00:21:54.192
And ever since then,

00:21:54.251 --> 00:21:55.713
that happened about 10 years ago,

00:21:56.433 --> 00:21:57.974
I found myself with this

00:21:58.055 --> 00:21:59.797
national audience because I

00:21:59.817 --> 00:22:02.578
was finally able to speak clearly,

00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:03.980
explicitly,

00:22:04.180 --> 00:22:06.541
and I wasn't beholden to any system,

00:22:06.803 --> 00:22:08.084
any religious tradition,

00:22:08.223 --> 00:22:09.404
any political party.

00:22:09.904 --> 00:22:11.105
And that's the heart of it

00:22:11.165 --> 00:22:12.307
for me is that once you can

00:22:12.346 --> 00:22:13.627
be an authentic human being

00:22:13.667 --> 00:22:14.868
and break out of those things,

00:22:14.949 --> 00:22:16.029
you can connect with people

00:22:16.109 --> 00:22:16.790
on a human level.

00:22:17.171 --> 00:22:18.491
And that's kind of led me to

00:22:18.672 --> 00:22:19.212
sitting here with you.

00:22:20.153 --> 00:22:21.855
But you have a base in Wake Forest,

00:22:21.894 --> 00:22:22.434
do you not?

00:22:22.454 --> 00:22:23.596
Because that was my memory.

00:22:23.615 --> 00:22:24.737
There was some relationship

00:22:24.777 --> 00:22:25.497
to Wake Forest.

00:22:26.097 --> 00:22:26.478
Well,

00:22:26.637 --> 00:22:29.421
we actually moved to this area 10

00:22:29.421 --> 00:22:30.781
years ago to take a job at

00:22:30.801 --> 00:22:32.702
the church where I was fired from.

00:22:32.863 --> 00:22:35.065
And so it became trying to figure out,

00:22:35.105 --> 00:22:35.585
well,

00:22:35.885 --> 00:22:38.587
are we going to go find a job at

00:22:38.647 --> 00:22:39.268
another church?

00:22:39.327 --> 00:22:41.250
Am I going to move back to our

00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:43.089
our roots in the northeast

00:22:43.190 --> 00:22:44.631
and start a business there

00:22:44.651 --> 00:22:45.691
an organization of some

00:22:45.770 --> 00:22:47.852
sort or church and really

00:22:47.872 --> 00:22:48.951
we just decided let's just

00:22:49.011 --> 00:22:50.571
stay and keep i'll keep

00:22:50.632 --> 00:22:51.792
doing what i've always done

00:22:51.853 --> 00:22:53.593
which is speak as clearly

00:22:53.653 --> 00:22:55.473
as i can into matters that

00:22:55.733 --> 00:22:56.854
are important to me and

00:22:56.933 --> 00:22:59.074
keep caring for people and

00:22:59.193 --> 00:23:00.634
that's when the the blog

00:23:00.694 --> 00:23:02.075
actually found a national

00:23:02.154 --> 00:23:04.316
audience i was on staff at

00:23:04.355 --> 00:23:06.175
a church here a progressive

00:23:06.236 --> 00:23:08.916
community and so i have the base here of

00:23:09.436 --> 00:23:09.676
you know,

00:23:09.737 --> 00:23:12.200
friends and people from that church.

00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.221
But really virtually is

00:23:14.301 --> 00:23:15.682
where everything began to happen.

00:23:15.702 --> 00:23:16.844
But we just decided we're

00:23:16.884 --> 00:23:17.744
staying where we are.

00:23:18.365 --> 00:23:20.807
Would you define yourself as a Unitarian?

00:23:21.008 --> 00:23:21.728
Is that a fair?

00:23:22.588 --> 00:23:23.789
You know, it's not.

00:23:23.829 --> 00:23:25.491
I mean, that's on my Wikipedia because,

00:23:25.511 --> 00:23:27.012
you know, that's how Wikipedia works.

00:23:28.074 --> 00:23:29.255
I speak at a Unitarian community.

00:23:29.275 --> 00:23:30.336
I asked you that last time

00:23:30.375 --> 00:23:31.616
and I specifically didn't

00:23:31.636 --> 00:23:32.278
listen to the episode

00:23:32.298 --> 00:23:33.880
because I don't remember your answer.

00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:39.121
Yeah, because I speak all over the country,

00:23:39.181 --> 00:23:40.121
but there's a Unitarian

00:23:40.181 --> 00:23:41.602
community where they asked

00:23:41.622 --> 00:23:42.761
me to come quite often.

00:23:42.902 --> 00:23:44.622
And so it became some story

00:23:44.662 --> 00:23:47.083
was run that said I was Unitarian pastor.

00:23:47.482 --> 00:23:48.363
I think there are a lot of

00:23:48.403 --> 00:23:50.083
things about the Unitarian

00:23:50.363 --> 00:23:52.663
philosophy that resonate with me,

00:23:52.743 --> 00:23:54.443
things about the personal

00:23:54.624 --> 00:23:55.944
spiritual experience that

00:23:55.984 --> 00:23:58.265
you're having is completely unique,

00:23:58.384 --> 00:23:59.684
but it's okay to have that

00:23:59.805 --> 00:24:00.925
in a collective group of

00:24:00.986 --> 00:24:02.566
people who respect that road.

00:24:03.145 --> 00:24:04.507
So in a Unitarian community,

00:24:04.527 --> 00:24:05.866
you'll find Buddhists and

00:24:05.988 --> 00:24:08.528
Catholics and agnostics and atheists.

00:24:08.628 --> 00:24:10.490
And so that part about it, I love.

00:24:10.769 --> 00:24:12.010
And with any system,

00:24:12.411 --> 00:24:13.070
there are things that

00:24:13.090 --> 00:24:14.251
aren't compatible for me.

00:24:15.011 --> 00:24:16.133
But as someone who just

00:24:16.192 --> 00:24:18.513
tries to live a spiritual

00:24:18.614 --> 00:24:20.994
life outside of dogma and doctrine,

00:24:21.415 --> 00:24:21.695
that is

00:24:22.215 --> 00:24:24.458
often is a place that I'm comfortable in.

00:24:24.617 --> 00:24:26.019
So that's kind of where I am.

00:24:26.058 --> 00:24:27.019
I'm a spiritual mutt.

00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:28.160
I always have been.

00:24:28.840 --> 00:24:30.821
And, you know, doing this work,

00:24:30.882 --> 00:24:32.983
I've become sort of a, people say, oh,

00:24:33.023 --> 00:24:33.924
he's a voice of the

00:24:34.005 --> 00:24:36.086
progressive Christianity or

00:24:36.105 --> 00:24:36.846
the Christian left.

00:24:36.906 --> 00:24:37.646
And I'm really not.

00:24:37.767 --> 00:24:39.488
I'm just the voice of one

00:24:39.548 --> 00:24:41.529
human being who's trying to, you know,

00:24:41.569 --> 00:24:42.911
figure some of this out and

00:24:43.171 --> 00:24:44.192
sharing my journey and

00:24:44.471 --> 00:24:46.212
where that work resonates with people,

00:24:46.614 --> 00:24:47.193
they join me.

00:24:48.075 --> 00:24:48.295
Yeah.

00:24:48.394 --> 00:24:50.896
And actually you prompted my next question,

00:24:50.916 --> 00:24:51.176
you know,

00:24:51.795 --> 00:24:52.474
Again, you know,

00:24:53.056 --> 00:24:54.135
people are not monoliths

00:24:54.256 --> 00:24:56.037
and neither are people who are in groups.

00:24:56.237 --> 00:24:57.237
So the Christian right,

00:24:57.297 --> 00:24:57.998
the Christian left.

00:24:58.298 --> 00:25:00.198
But one of the things is to find, I think,

00:25:00.878 --> 00:25:02.179
our politics for the worse.

00:25:02.499 --> 00:25:02.878
You know,

00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:04.940
you and I talked about this and I

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:06.280
know you talk about a lot is, you know,

00:25:06.340 --> 00:25:07.641
from the late 70s on the

00:25:07.701 --> 00:25:09.882
politicalization of, you know,

00:25:09.961 --> 00:25:12.042
very right wing doctrinal

00:25:12.103 --> 00:25:14.144
Christianity as a means of public policy.

00:25:15.234 --> 00:25:16.757
As somebody who's an independent, too,

00:25:17.317 --> 00:25:18.698
who is very much in

00:25:18.738 --> 00:25:20.219
agreement with Republicans, let's say,

00:25:20.259 --> 00:25:21.980
on economics and defense policy,

00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:24.863
I just can't abide the

00:25:24.903 --> 00:25:26.324
viciousness of a movement

00:25:26.364 --> 00:25:28.145
which deprives women the right to choose.

00:25:28.365 --> 00:25:28.846
Obviously,

00:25:29.247 --> 00:25:33.950
the fight that has endured

00:25:34.029 --> 00:25:35.531
against anything LGBT,

00:25:35.551 --> 00:25:37.313
certainly now it's more trans than gay.

00:25:37.333 --> 00:25:39.295
In the earlier era,

00:25:40.115 --> 00:25:40.855
wanting to put school

00:25:40.935 --> 00:25:43.377
prayer in the Constitution.

00:25:43.942 --> 00:25:44.281
You know,

00:25:44.382 --> 00:25:46.603
what really were the school

00:25:46.643 --> 00:25:48.144
choice was essentially or

00:25:48.183 --> 00:25:49.044
initially a way to

00:25:49.084 --> 00:25:50.285
segregate Southern white

00:25:50.305 --> 00:25:51.925
kids from Black kids back in the day.

00:25:52.346 --> 00:25:53.385
I think that the public

00:25:53.405 --> 00:25:54.126
school system has its

00:25:54.166 --> 00:25:54.926
problems and charter

00:25:54.967 --> 00:25:55.767
schools have a different thing.

00:25:55.807 --> 00:25:57.008
But all of that is to say,

00:25:57.508 --> 00:25:58.749
those have been the loudest voices,

00:25:59.249 --> 00:25:59.449
you know,

00:25:59.509 --> 00:26:01.190
from Jerry Falwell to Ralph Reed

00:26:01.250 --> 00:26:02.029
to Pat Robertson.

00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:03.090
And they came to dominate

00:26:03.131 --> 00:26:04.570
Republican politics for so long.

00:26:04.932 --> 00:26:06.751
They're weirdly muddled in the MAGA era.

00:26:06.771 --> 00:26:07.613
We'll get back to that in a

00:26:07.653 --> 00:26:08.413
second because I had a

00:26:08.432 --> 00:26:10.794
great conversation with David French,

00:26:11.094 --> 00:26:12.154
you know, a wonderful guy.

00:26:12.570 --> 00:26:13.451
from the New York Times just

00:26:13.491 --> 00:26:14.192
recently on this.

00:26:15.472 --> 00:26:16.233
I don't want to use the word

00:26:16.294 --> 00:26:17.255
Protestant left because you

00:26:17.275 --> 00:26:18.096
aren't independent and you

00:26:18.135 --> 00:26:19.237
don't speak for everybody.

00:26:19.297 --> 00:26:21.919
But why has there been up until now?

00:26:21.939 --> 00:26:22.578
I mean, again,

00:26:22.638 --> 00:26:23.940
Trump mobilized so many of

00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:26.182
us to just wake the hell up and say,

00:26:26.461 --> 00:26:27.442
we got to save the country.

00:26:27.462 --> 00:26:28.163
We have to stop this.

00:26:28.544 --> 00:26:29.785
But all the years leading up to it,

00:26:30.205 --> 00:26:30.905
where were I?

00:26:31.446 --> 00:26:31.767
Again,

00:26:31.807 --> 00:26:33.848
I've been doing politics since I'm 14.

00:26:33.848 --> 00:26:35.009
That's the kind of geek I am.

00:26:35.089 --> 00:26:36.371
And so it's not like I woke up and said,

00:26:36.391 --> 00:26:37.290
oh, I have a podcast.

00:26:37.330 --> 00:26:38.011
I love politics.

00:26:39.153 --> 00:26:40.634
Thought about it, read about it,

00:26:40.713 --> 00:26:42.074
fascinated by religion as a

00:26:42.094 --> 00:26:42.913
non-religious person.

00:26:43.173 --> 00:26:44.153
Where have the more

00:26:44.233 --> 00:26:46.255
progressive or left or mainstream,

00:26:47.035 --> 00:26:49.096
mainline Protestant voices been,

00:26:49.135 --> 00:26:49.615
or Catholic,

00:26:50.455 --> 00:26:52.976
on a lot of these policy issues?

00:26:53.056 --> 00:26:54.696
How come I haven't heard as much of them?

00:26:54.757 --> 00:26:55.797
And I think people,

00:26:56.017 --> 00:26:57.057
my point is I think people

00:26:57.136 --> 00:26:58.738
want to group you in in a

00:26:58.837 --> 00:27:01.057
positive way to a movement

00:27:01.097 --> 00:27:04.398
that seems to have been, not muted,

00:27:04.479 --> 00:27:06.099
but certainly subtle.

00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:07.160
Yeah.

00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:07.819
Yeah.

00:27:08.736 --> 00:27:10.638
You know, I think what happened is,

00:27:10.999 --> 00:27:11.880
you know, a couple of things.

00:27:12.421 --> 00:27:14.143
Someone asked me maybe five years ago,

00:27:14.784 --> 00:27:15.044
she said,

00:27:15.105 --> 00:27:16.826
where are the progressive

00:27:17.627 --> 00:27:18.449
Franklin Grahams?

00:27:18.848 --> 00:27:19.230
And I said,

00:27:19.269 --> 00:27:20.250
you're never going to see them

00:27:20.290 --> 00:27:21.432
because we don't want them

00:27:21.492 --> 00:27:22.614
because a progressive

00:27:22.673 --> 00:27:24.076
movement doesn't want –

00:27:24.076 --> 00:27:24.355
You know,

00:27:24.676 --> 00:27:26.778
centralized authority dictating

00:27:26.999 --> 00:27:27.479
everything.

00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:29.582
And so we are by that nature,

00:27:29.981 --> 00:27:32.565
we are more segmented and spread out.

00:27:32.964 --> 00:27:34.326
And so there aren't going to

00:27:34.365 --> 00:27:35.548
be a lot of these sort of

00:27:35.647 --> 00:27:37.348
large scale movements.

00:27:37.449 --> 00:27:38.611
And that makes it difficult

00:27:38.651 --> 00:27:39.811
for people of faith who

00:27:39.991 --> 00:27:41.534
aren't completely right

00:27:41.614 --> 00:27:43.715
wing to have a visible presence.

00:27:43.756 --> 00:27:44.737
There's no way for them to

00:27:44.797 --> 00:27:45.998
have collective influence.

00:27:47.178 --> 00:27:48.739
And so that's the difficult

00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:50.859
part and why I love the work that I do,

00:27:50.900 --> 00:27:51.940
because people can at least

00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:54.921
gather around that writing as a hub.

00:27:55.320 --> 00:27:56.461
And so and when your when

00:27:56.481 --> 00:27:59.163
your faith perspective is gentler,

00:27:59.542 --> 00:28:00.742
you know, I remember a pastor,

00:28:01.143 --> 00:28:02.324
a conservative pastor who

00:28:02.443 --> 00:28:04.763
went became more progressive and he said,

00:28:04.824 --> 00:28:05.704
I really miss hell.

00:28:06.464 --> 00:28:07.925
He said, because when I had hell,

00:28:08.125 --> 00:28:09.807
I could get people in my

00:28:09.866 --> 00:28:11.626
churches to do anything, to give,

00:28:11.686 --> 00:28:13.728
to participate, to volunteer, to vote.

00:28:14.169 --> 00:28:14.509
And he said,

00:28:14.588 --> 00:28:15.848
once I lost that sort of

00:28:15.950 --> 00:28:18.211
damnation angle and the fear,

00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:19.931
then my people,

00:28:19.971 --> 00:28:21.971
I couldn't get them to motivated.

00:28:22.051 --> 00:28:23.173
So he was seeing that as

00:28:23.232 --> 00:28:24.673
sort of a difficult thing.

00:28:24.733 --> 00:28:25.993
I think that speaks to what

00:28:26.034 --> 00:28:26.855
we're talking about,

00:28:26.894 --> 00:28:28.596
because a more conservative

00:28:28.655 --> 00:28:29.415
theology says,

00:28:29.736 --> 00:28:30.997
can keep rationing up the

00:28:31.136 --> 00:28:32.417
urgency and the guilt.

00:28:32.738 --> 00:28:34.778
And it also runs on needing

00:28:34.818 --> 00:28:37.000
an adversary and encroaching enemy.

00:28:37.441 --> 00:28:38.461
And that's what the right

00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:42.103
has so perfectly leveraged.

00:28:42.442 --> 00:28:44.124
And so I think progressive faith,

00:28:44.204 --> 00:28:45.224
it's about figuring out

00:28:46.526 --> 00:28:47.566
what is our urgency?

00:28:47.967 --> 00:28:49.146
And for me, it's humanity,

00:28:49.207 --> 00:28:50.387
it's human and civil rights,

00:28:50.488 --> 00:28:51.669
it's democracy.

00:28:53.020 --> 00:28:53.260
Right.

00:28:53.381 --> 00:28:55.642
I mean, it speaks to a little bit of,

00:28:55.922 --> 00:28:56.623
and I just want to give,

00:28:56.643 --> 00:28:57.462
I'm trying to give people

00:28:57.563 --> 00:28:58.403
snippets of it because it's

00:28:58.463 --> 00:28:59.384
so good from the book,

00:28:59.743 --> 00:29:01.664
your What's at State chapter where you,

00:29:02.125 --> 00:29:02.865
you know, you write,

00:29:02.925 --> 00:29:04.086
we find ourselves being

00:29:04.145 --> 00:29:05.166
called to be allies and

00:29:05.227 --> 00:29:06.346
advocates and activists for

00:29:06.366 --> 00:29:07.748
the common good in a world

00:29:07.807 --> 00:29:09.188
where it may be more difficult,

00:29:09.228 --> 00:29:10.128
the opposition more

00:29:10.169 --> 00:29:12.049
galvanized and the need far greater.

00:29:12.529 --> 00:29:13.309
And you said that in the

00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:15.030
context of LGBT rights and

00:29:15.070 --> 00:29:15.811
human rights and the

00:29:15.852 --> 00:29:17.051
overturning of Roe v. Wade.

00:29:19.695 --> 00:29:21.175
When David French was on my program,

00:29:21.215 --> 00:29:22.416
and I keep bringing him up

00:29:22.457 --> 00:29:23.596
because he noted a

00:29:23.696 --> 00:29:25.277
fascinating distinction in

00:29:25.336 --> 00:29:27.377
his own journey as a Christian,

00:29:28.317 --> 00:29:30.479
that there were so many people in MAGA,

00:29:30.939 --> 00:29:31.318
okay,

00:29:31.919 --> 00:29:34.079
who backed Donald Trump who have

00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:35.039
never read the Bible.

00:29:35.819 --> 00:29:37.720
I mean, since they haven't read it.

00:29:38.121 --> 00:29:38.681
So, you know,

00:29:38.740 --> 00:29:40.401
church meant community in

00:29:40.760 --> 00:29:43.561
Opa-like Alabama or pick a southern town,

00:29:43.642 --> 00:29:43.862
anywhere.

00:29:44.260 --> 00:29:44.500
You know,

00:29:44.560 --> 00:29:45.801
specifically in the south where

00:29:45.821 --> 00:29:47.202
you would go because that's what you did.

00:29:48.063 --> 00:29:49.203
And you didn't read it.

00:29:49.604 --> 00:29:51.184
You listened to what the community said.

00:29:51.244 --> 00:29:53.266
You voted how everybody else voted.

00:29:54.346 --> 00:29:54.666
You know,

00:29:54.727 --> 00:29:57.469
you lived kind of in a fear-based

00:29:57.528 --> 00:29:58.009
existence.

00:29:58.048 --> 00:29:59.950
Not everybody, but the idea that, right,

00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:00.390
oh, my God,

00:30:00.410 --> 00:30:01.290
the world is changing and

00:30:01.310 --> 00:30:01.871
they're taking away our

00:30:01.891 --> 00:30:02.751
Christianity and we can't

00:30:02.771 --> 00:30:03.332
have that happening.

00:30:03.951 --> 00:30:05.012
And then, of course...

00:30:05.765 --> 00:30:06.625
Then there are people that

00:30:06.665 --> 00:30:07.787
have read the Bible and

00:30:08.126 --> 00:30:09.887
only now there have been more pastors.

00:30:09.948 --> 00:30:11.388
A right-wing pastor, I believe,

00:30:11.429 --> 00:30:12.250
came out the other day on

00:30:12.269 --> 00:30:12.710
Twitter and said,

00:30:12.750 --> 00:30:13.631
I've had enough of Trump.

00:30:13.691 --> 00:30:14.111
It's enough.

00:30:14.451 --> 00:30:15.571
He seems to be losing some

00:30:15.592 --> 00:30:16.452
of that currency.

00:30:16.932 --> 00:30:20.955
But what's been the, in your travels,

00:30:21.457 --> 00:30:22.938
because again, you do healing work,

00:30:23.077 --> 00:30:23.397
really.

00:30:23.438 --> 00:30:24.659
You're not there to say, oh,

00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:26.200
you say you're a Christian,

00:30:26.220 --> 00:30:27.661
you voted for Trump, go after yourself.

00:30:28.041 --> 00:30:28.281
Okay.

00:30:29.482 --> 00:30:30.462
People who say,

00:30:30.943 --> 00:30:32.285
I'm a Christian and

00:30:32.325 --> 00:30:34.266
therefore I need to support Donald Trump.

00:30:34.665 --> 00:30:35.287
What's been like,

00:30:35.708 --> 00:30:37.230
I'm trying to say,

00:30:37.770 --> 00:30:39.134
I want to give them a kind

00:30:39.173 --> 00:30:41.217
of salutary analysis.

00:30:41.778 --> 00:30:43.441
How do they arrive at that place?

00:30:43.580 --> 00:30:46.346
I mean, is it just the judges?

00:30:46.365 --> 00:30:47.326
Is it the court?

00:30:47.346 --> 00:30:47.827
What is it?

00:30:50.773 --> 00:30:52.776
I think, well, you know,

00:30:52.816 --> 00:30:54.117
fear is a huge part of it.

00:30:54.157 --> 00:30:55.439
The vilifying of other

00:30:55.459 --> 00:30:56.519
people or the sense of

00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:59.143
being perpetually in danger.

00:30:59.163 --> 00:31:00.384
I always say no one is at

00:31:00.404 --> 00:31:01.806
their best when they're terrified.

00:31:01.986 --> 00:31:04.409
And so that explains some of it.

00:31:05.049 --> 00:31:06.611
And I think what I began to

00:31:06.671 --> 00:31:07.592
notice was that

00:31:07.952 --> 00:31:10.335
conservative Christian pastors,

00:31:10.394 --> 00:31:11.195
evangelicals,

00:31:12.557 --> 00:31:13.959
they never mentioned really

00:31:14.038 --> 00:31:15.779
Jesus or the teachings of Jesus.

00:31:15.859 --> 00:31:16.980
It was always the idea of

00:31:17.060 --> 00:31:20.084
God in a very general sense and the Bible,

00:31:20.263 --> 00:31:21.305
because they could sort of

00:31:21.384 --> 00:31:24.146
superimpose their values

00:31:24.346 --> 00:31:25.709
onto the idea of God,

00:31:26.308 --> 00:31:27.009
or they could take the

00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:28.391
Bible and find one or two

00:31:28.451 --> 00:31:30.393
verses that helped in their cause.

00:31:30.992 --> 00:31:31.992
And then you find a group of

00:31:32.032 --> 00:31:33.693
people who really have a

00:31:33.854 --> 00:31:35.673
desire for a shorthand faith,

00:31:35.834 --> 00:31:36.933
which you kind of alluded to.

00:31:36.973 --> 00:31:38.134
They just want to come to

00:31:38.194 --> 00:31:38.855
church and have the

00:31:38.914 --> 00:31:40.075
experience and have someone

00:31:40.115 --> 00:31:41.095
up on that platform,

00:31:41.115 --> 00:31:42.516
tell them what to believe.

00:31:42.556 --> 00:31:43.496
And they don't want to do

00:31:43.556 --> 00:31:44.736
that kind of work that it

00:31:44.796 --> 00:31:46.057
takes to investigate.

00:31:46.596 --> 00:31:47.537
What did the teachings of

00:31:47.596 --> 00:31:48.797
Jesus actually say in

00:31:48.856 --> 00:31:51.157
comparison to how is Donald Trump living?

00:31:51.817 --> 00:31:53.198
And so once you do that,

00:31:53.577 --> 00:31:56.159
there is a confrontational

00:31:56.479 --> 00:31:57.358
aspect to that.

00:31:57.459 --> 00:31:58.299
And people are going to be

00:31:58.339 --> 00:31:59.460
in a defense posture.

00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:01.141
And I always say no one has

00:32:01.201 --> 00:32:02.941
time for an existential crisis,

00:32:03.082 --> 00:32:04.221
but these Christians

00:32:04.321 --> 00:32:05.682
probably should take time

00:32:05.722 --> 00:32:07.784
to have one and really ask

00:32:07.983 --> 00:32:09.244
if their values that they

00:32:09.525 --> 00:32:11.266
think they have align with

00:32:12.105 --> 00:32:13.646
this person and his movement.

00:32:14.007 --> 00:32:15.407
And so really a lot of the

00:32:15.448 --> 00:32:16.428
work that I do that really

00:32:16.468 --> 00:32:18.709
ticks people off isn't saying anything.

00:32:18.769 --> 00:32:19.950
It's just simply using the

00:32:20.009 --> 00:32:21.530
words that I grew up on

00:32:21.590 --> 00:32:24.791
that I know they aspire to and say,

00:32:24.832 --> 00:32:25.893
tell me where you see these

00:32:25.952 --> 00:32:27.173
things in this movement.

00:32:27.273 --> 00:32:27.453
So-

00:32:28.173 --> 00:32:29.597
you know, that's a little bit of that,

00:32:29.857 --> 00:32:30.980
that where that comes from, I think.

00:32:31.823 --> 00:32:33.125
What's your view on,

00:32:33.507 --> 00:32:35.171
I've been thinking about this a lot,

00:32:35.772 --> 00:32:36.012
you know,

00:32:37.045 --> 00:32:39.426
Growing up going to having a

00:32:39.487 --> 00:32:40.767
civic organization or

00:32:40.807 --> 00:32:42.448
specifically a house of worship,

00:32:42.488 --> 00:32:43.749
maybe a synagogue or a church.

00:32:44.190 --> 00:32:45.711
We did not go to synagogue regularly.

00:32:45.750 --> 00:32:48.632
We were high holy holiday Jews at best.

00:32:49.053 --> 00:32:50.272
But I went to a very

00:32:50.473 --> 00:32:52.095
well-known Presbyterian prep school,

00:32:52.115 --> 00:32:52.674
a very good one.

00:32:52.694 --> 00:32:54.215
And most of my friends growing up,

00:32:54.256 --> 00:32:55.757
they'd go every Sunday to

00:32:55.777 --> 00:32:56.336
the Miami Shores

00:32:56.376 --> 00:32:57.758
Presbyterian Church is what they did.

00:32:57.778 --> 00:32:58.638
It was part of the community.

00:32:59.618 --> 00:33:01.221
As it has been for so many Americans.

00:33:01.721 --> 00:33:03.362
And there's been some

00:33:03.422 --> 00:33:04.202
theories put out there,

00:33:04.222 --> 00:33:04.903
which I think have some

00:33:04.962 --> 00:33:06.044
merit I want to talk to you about,

00:33:06.064 --> 00:33:07.585
which is the collapse of

00:33:07.684 --> 00:33:09.385
community as it relates to

00:33:09.465 --> 00:33:10.267
organized religion.

00:33:10.646 --> 00:33:11.847
Not the fire in Bridgestone,

00:33:11.867 --> 00:33:14.430
just that you refresh yourself on Sunday.

00:33:14.450 --> 00:33:15.269
You clean your palate,

00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:16.191
your spiritual palate.

00:33:16.230 --> 00:33:17.451
You go see your people.

00:33:17.511 --> 00:33:18.772
You go to a lunch afterward.

00:33:18.813 --> 00:33:19.573
You do that thing.

00:33:19.613 --> 00:33:20.113
You heal.

00:33:20.153 --> 00:33:21.574
You have a family moment,

00:33:21.653 --> 00:33:22.394
community neighborhood.

00:33:23.410 --> 00:33:24.971
The collapse of that, you know,

00:33:24.991 --> 00:33:26.813
that void has been filled, obviously,

00:33:26.873 --> 00:33:28.375
by the Internet, by social media,

00:33:28.434 --> 00:33:29.957
by the me, me, me of it all,

00:33:30.017 --> 00:33:31.218
by the let me be loud and

00:33:31.258 --> 00:33:33.079
nasty and show you how big

00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:35.402
and awful my brand is or how famous I am.

00:33:35.422 --> 00:33:36.823
Do you think there's a connection,

00:33:37.183 --> 00:33:38.625
you know, between a loss of,

00:33:39.046 --> 00:33:40.586
let's just maybe call it a crisis?

00:33:42.728 --> 00:33:44.568
kind of civic spirituality.

00:33:44.588 --> 00:33:48.691
Do you think that's led to, and again,

00:33:48.730 --> 00:33:49.711
I'm not suggesting, again,

00:33:50.171 --> 00:33:52.011
and I know you do this work, excuse me,

00:33:52.031 --> 00:33:52.633
I'm not suggesting

00:33:52.673 --> 00:33:54.252
everybody start going to church on Sunday,

00:33:54.673 --> 00:33:56.453
but there is something nice

00:33:57.394 --> 00:33:58.756
about going somewhere and

00:33:58.836 --> 00:34:00.135
having that experience and

00:34:00.175 --> 00:34:01.156
what it means for community.

00:34:01.196 --> 00:34:01.876
What do you think about it?

00:34:03.455 --> 00:34:04.156
Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:04.217 --> 00:34:05.759
I think what you started to

00:34:05.818 --> 00:34:06.759
see over the past few

00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.403
decades is the practice of

00:34:09.463 --> 00:34:10.364
going to church is

00:34:10.425 --> 00:34:11.485
something we've seen fewer

00:34:11.525 --> 00:34:12.827
and fewer Americans have

00:34:12.887 --> 00:34:15.170
that as their sort of default story.

00:34:15.311 --> 00:34:17.353
And most people, where I grew up,

00:34:17.454 --> 00:34:17.835
everyone...

00:34:18.255 --> 00:34:20.016
went to church or some sort

00:34:20.056 --> 00:34:21.177
of place of worship.

00:34:21.317 --> 00:34:22.378
And then you don't see that.

00:34:22.438 --> 00:34:23.617
So that disconnection,

00:34:24.099 --> 00:34:25.318
that pulling apart was

00:34:25.398 --> 00:34:26.460
already starting to happen.

00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:27.661
And you have social media

00:34:27.701 --> 00:34:30.101
where you have the illusion of community,

00:34:30.161 --> 00:34:31.302
but you don't always have it.

00:34:31.802 --> 00:34:33.164
And then, you know, the pandemic,

00:34:33.523 --> 00:34:34.625
I think the pandemic

00:34:34.905 --> 00:34:36.246
brought sort of forced

00:34:36.465 --> 00:34:38.927
geographic isolation in

00:34:38.987 --> 00:34:40.228
addition to this sort of

00:34:40.509 --> 00:34:41.809
emotional disconnection.

00:34:41.989 --> 00:34:43.309
And so there's been a

00:34:43.389 --> 00:34:44.891
loneliness that I see

00:34:44.951 --> 00:34:46.052
happening as I talk to

00:34:46.092 --> 00:34:47.193
people throughout this country.

00:34:47.853 --> 00:34:49.393
And that loneliness is a

00:34:49.434 --> 00:34:50.255
group of people who are

00:34:50.335 --> 00:34:51.835
starved for community.

00:34:52.376 --> 00:34:53.217
And so when you look at

00:34:53.297 --> 00:34:55.177
something like the MAGA movement,

00:34:55.557 --> 00:34:56.418
you know, and you say, well,

00:34:56.458 --> 00:34:57.239
how people ask,

00:34:57.298 --> 00:34:58.519
how can someone I know and

00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:00.161
love embrace that?

00:35:00.581 --> 00:35:00.802
Well,

00:35:00.842 --> 00:35:02.402
it's because they have found some

00:35:02.483 --> 00:35:04.704
sense of being seen or some

00:35:04.744 --> 00:35:06.806
sense of identity in that movement,

00:35:06.846 --> 00:35:08.246
something bigger than themselves.

00:35:08.786 --> 00:35:09.867
So I think the loss of

00:35:09.967 --> 00:35:11.688
church as just a hub for

00:35:11.728 --> 00:35:14.190
humanity has not been replaced.

00:35:14.650 --> 00:35:16.152
And so that's where we are.

00:35:16.231 --> 00:35:18.393
We have detribed in a lot of

00:35:18.414 --> 00:35:19.833
ways and not retribed.

00:35:20.195 --> 00:35:21.876
And so there's a gap there.

00:35:22.755 --> 00:35:23.617
Yeah, and I think, too,

00:35:23.697 --> 00:35:24.858
I think the absence of

00:35:25.498 --> 00:35:26.960
inclusive messaging from,

00:35:27.219 --> 00:35:28.101
let's call it Christian

00:35:28.141 --> 00:35:29.461
politics to keep it general,

00:35:29.802 --> 00:35:30.722
has been hard, right,

00:35:30.762 --> 00:35:32.244
for generations of people who've grown up,

00:35:32.264 --> 00:35:33.585
certainly the last two generations,

00:35:33.965 --> 00:35:35.967
grown up more tolerant, right, more open.

00:35:35.987 --> 00:35:36.869
It's a different country

00:35:36.929 --> 00:35:38.969
than I'm almost 50 now, you know,

00:35:38.989 --> 00:35:40.311
in the 70s, a different world.

00:35:41.112 --> 00:35:42.193
And, you know,

00:35:42.253 --> 00:35:43.373
people don't want to hear

00:35:43.393 --> 00:35:46.217
the hate and all that.

00:35:46.237 --> 00:35:47.077
I mean, there's even...

00:35:47.757 --> 00:35:50.019
In polls of younger evangelicals,

00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.041
a much greater and growing

00:35:52.081 --> 00:35:53.802
acceptance of LGBT people,

00:35:54.282 --> 00:35:55.382
even when they're members

00:35:55.463 --> 00:35:57.403
of churches that don't adhere to that.

00:35:57.423 --> 00:35:58.224
That's interesting.

00:35:58.264 --> 00:35:58.585
You know,

00:35:58.605 --> 00:36:00.085
you wonder if even though there's

00:36:00.106 --> 00:36:01.246
less people going to church,

00:36:01.286 --> 00:36:02.387
does the generational

00:36:02.606 --> 00:36:05.869
divide maybe change the

00:36:05.909 --> 00:36:08.110
trajectory of faith for people?

00:36:09.251 --> 00:36:13.072
I think so, doing the work I do, again,

00:36:13.213 --> 00:36:14.233
I don't have a church,

00:36:14.313 --> 00:36:15.313
but I have this odd

00:36:15.853 --> 00:36:17.635
congregation of people who

00:36:17.695 --> 00:36:18.914
are from all over the place

00:36:19.034 --> 00:36:20.074
and they just come in the

00:36:20.135 --> 00:36:22.036
spirit of the things we've

00:36:22.056 --> 00:36:22.835
been talking about,

00:36:22.916 --> 00:36:24.577
wanting to lead with

00:36:24.637 --> 00:36:26.317
compassion and wanting to

00:36:26.376 --> 00:36:27.438
do what's best for the

00:36:27.478 --> 00:36:29.217
common good and realizing

00:36:29.257 --> 00:36:30.498
that whether it's political

00:36:30.699 --> 00:36:31.699
or theological,

00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:32.838
that those systems can

00:36:32.898 --> 00:36:34.980
often be the thing that is the barrier.

00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:37.360
And so it's trying to figure

00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:38.282
out what is the new way

00:36:38.342 --> 00:36:39.382
that we relate to one

00:36:39.443 --> 00:36:41.043
another and that we pool

00:36:41.083 --> 00:36:42.465
our collective influence.

00:36:42.545 --> 00:36:43.686
I think that's the other thing.

00:36:44.005 --> 00:36:45.646
People want to feel meaning.

00:36:45.666 --> 00:36:47.248
They want to have something

00:36:48.028 --> 00:36:49.210
bigger than their own story

00:36:49.250 --> 00:36:50.030
to take part in.

00:36:50.150 --> 00:36:51.731
And they're finding difficulty now.

00:36:51.751 --> 00:36:52.291
Where do I belong?

00:36:53.882 --> 00:36:54.583
Yeah.

00:36:55.123 --> 00:36:57.826
With your new book, which I think, um,

00:36:58.106 --> 00:37:00.228
is different obviously from God is love.

00:37:00.268 --> 00:37:00.989
Don't be a jerk.

00:37:01.068 --> 00:37:02.530
It's, it's like, you know, like I said,

00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:03.811
you're giving everyone a little primer,

00:37:03.891 --> 00:37:04.672
you know, this could have,

00:37:04.692 --> 00:37:05.893
this could be by your bedside.

00:37:05.932 --> 00:37:08.496
It could be read every day, little small,

00:37:08.516 --> 00:37:09.356
um, uh,

00:37:10.336 --> 00:37:13.300
essays and think pieces and

00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:14.442
little nuggets of wisdom.

00:37:14.922 --> 00:37:17.105
What made you write the book like this?

00:37:17.324 --> 00:37:18.806
Because you do tackle politics,

00:37:18.887 --> 00:37:21.110
but it does seem larger than politics,

00:37:21.150 --> 00:37:22.210
which I think is very

00:37:22.251 --> 00:37:23.472
important in an era where

00:37:24.052 --> 00:37:26.275
everything is toxically political.

00:37:26.456 --> 00:37:27.998
Oh my God, everything's politics.

00:37:28.057 --> 00:37:28.798
I can't be friends with

00:37:28.818 --> 00:37:29.820
somebody who voted for Trump or

00:37:30.215 --> 00:37:31.817
How can I not have an issue view on that?

00:37:31.836 --> 00:37:32.958
Where are the Democrats on that?

00:37:33.018 --> 00:37:33.777
Rather than saying,

00:37:34.139 --> 00:37:35.619
how does this have meaning for me?

00:37:35.980 --> 00:37:36.940
How does this help me

00:37:37.001 --> 00:37:38.021
connect to other people?

00:37:38.061 --> 00:37:39.461
How does this make me understand myself?

00:37:39.541 --> 00:37:41.063
Talk about the book and

00:37:41.083 --> 00:37:42.684
because that's what I loved about it.

00:37:42.724 --> 00:37:43.965
I mean, I love your writing anyway,

00:37:44.005 --> 00:37:45.206
but this was just a delight.

00:37:45.226 --> 00:37:47.367
I couldn't put it down, which was great,

00:37:47.708 --> 00:37:47.927
you know.

00:37:49.123 --> 00:37:49.704
Thank you, Adam.

00:37:50.385 --> 00:37:51.545
Traveling as much as I have

00:37:51.625 --> 00:37:52.686
over the past decade,

00:37:53.005 --> 00:37:54.887
I've said that I don't see

00:37:54.927 --> 00:37:57.108
myself as a pastor or an author anymore,

00:37:57.168 --> 00:37:58.807
but a collector of stories

00:37:58.827 --> 00:38:00.148
or a war correspondent.

00:38:00.829 --> 00:38:01.769
When I leave all these

00:38:01.849 --> 00:38:02.869
different exchanges with

00:38:02.909 --> 00:38:04.070
people all throughout the country,

00:38:04.130 --> 00:38:05.610
whether in person or online,

00:38:05.690 --> 00:38:06.731
it's just the sense of

00:38:08.512 --> 00:38:10.672
intense fatigue that people are feeling.

00:38:11.313 --> 00:38:12.733
And so the book was really

00:38:12.773 --> 00:38:14.034
designed to just be a

00:38:14.094 --> 00:38:15.755
resource for people who are

00:38:16.295 --> 00:38:18.175
really tired and wanting to

00:38:18.295 --> 00:38:19.496
do the right thing and

00:38:19.556 --> 00:38:20.597
feeling like I have to

00:38:20.657 --> 00:38:21.757
check out or I have to

00:38:21.818 --> 00:38:24.978
retire from being an engaged activist.

00:38:25.278 --> 00:38:26.659
And so that's really,

00:38:26.739 --> 00:38:28.000
it's meant to be just sort

00:38:28.059 --> 00:38:29.760
of what I say is a hug

00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:31.561
around the neck or a kick in the behind,

00:38:31.601 --> 00:38:33.663
whatever you need at the moment.

00:38:34.342 --> 00:38:35.943
And it's about remembering

00:38:37.003 --> 00:38:38.425
there are two wounds at the

00:38:38.487 --> 00:38:39.248
center of the book,

00:38:39.327 --> 00:38:40.650
the wounds of the world and

00:38:40.690 --> 00:38:42.853
the wounds we sustain attending to them.

00:38:43.514 --> 00:38:44.574
And I think compassionate

00:38:44.594 --> 00:38:45.956
people are much better at

00:38:46.056 --> 00:38:47.880
the former than the latter.

00:38:48.701 --> 00:38:49.943
We can easily see the

00:38:49.983 --> 00:38:51.945
brokenness and the injustice

00:38:52.445 --> 00:38:54.086
but can we see the toll that

00:38:54.106 --> 00:38:54.987
it's taken on us?

00:38:55.206 --> 00:38:56.288
And I think if more of us

00:38:56.327 --> 00:38:57.909
really tended to those things,

00:38:58.248 --> 00:38:59.548
we would be better able to

00:38:59.628 --> 00:39:01.250
engage people who disagree with us.

00:39:01.309 --> 00:39:04.190
We'd be better equipped for the long haul.

00:39:04.532 --> 00:39:05.751
And so that's really what

00:39:05.771 --> 00:39:06.893
the book is designed to do.

00:39:08.072 --> 00:39:09.213
Yeah.

00:39:10.434 --> 00:39:12.755
Back to the sort of schism in politics,

00:39:12.795 --> 00:39:14.036
the right-left Christian schism.

00:39:15.076 --> 00:39:16.217
What is the current

00:39:17.085 --> 00:39:18.105
do you view the current

00:39:18.425 --> 00:39:19.286
movement of christian

00:39:19.326 --> 00:39:20.746
nationalism i mean again i

00:39:20.786 --> 00:39:21.686
don't you know used to used

00:39:21.706 --> 00:39:23.007
to be they were so visible

00:39:23.447 --> 00:39:24.306
not that they're not around

00:39:24.347 --> 00:39:25.226
but then you know they used

00:39:25.266 --> 00:39:26.246
to used to see ralph reed

00:39:26.286 --> 00:39:27.108
and robertson and follow

00:39:27.128 --> 00:39:28.608
all these guys that always

00:39:28.648 --> 00:39:29.748
look at the big bad wolf

00:39:29.788 --> 00:39:31.248
like obviously they're

00:39:31.289 --> 00:39:32.789
there obviously they they

00:39:32.929 --> 00:39:34.009
prefer trump although he's

00:39:34.048 --> 00:39:35.869
losing some support what is

00:39:35.889 --> 00:39:37.690
the current face of it what

00:39:37.769 --> 00:39:39.231
do you think their goals are um

00:39:41.074 --> 00:39:42.275
You know, are they really looking,

00:39:42.576 --> 00:39:43.735
are they really aiming,

00:39:43.815 --> 00:39:44.777
like some people argue,

00:39:44.817 --> 00:39:46.436
for a theocratic nation in

00:39:46.476 --> 00:39:47.418
a second Trump term?

00:39:48.898 --> 00:39:49.838
Yeah, I think, you know,

00:39:49.898 --> 00:39:50.918
and I'm looking at, you know,

00:39:50.938 --> 00:39:52.239
Project 2025,

00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:53.019
looking at the Heritage

00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:54.480
Foundation and all those folks.

00:39:54.541 --> 00:39:54.800
I mean,

00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:57.862
they would like their theology to

00:39:57.902 --> 00:39:59.242
be the law of the land.

00:39:59.762 --> 00:40:00.342
And I think...

00:40:01.793 --> 00:40:05.715
My hope or my suspicion is

00:40:05.755 --> 00:40:06.795
that there are people who

00:40:06.856 --> 00:40:09.056
are now religious and

00:40:09.076 --> 00:40:09.996
they're seeing that this

00:40:10.076 --> 00:40:12.976
alignment with Trump is not sustainable.

00:40:12.996 --> 00:40:14.757
And so I think there is a

00:40:15.117 --> 00:40:18.059
lot of flux in happening

00:40:18.099 --> 00:40:18.998
right now in those

00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:20.579
movements because it's who

00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:22.579
speaks for us or who we aligned with.

00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:24.521
I think there is always

00:40:24.541 --> 00:40:26.322
going to be a version of

00:40:26.362 --> 00:40:28.802
Christianity that wants to

00:40:28.882 --> 00:40:30.503
rule and wants their faith

00:40:30.563 --> 00:40:31.625
to be expressed in the

00:40:31.704 --> 00:40:33.465
power that they influence

00:40:33.525 --> 00:40:34.206
over other people.

00:40:34.525 --> 00:40:35.806
While many people are saying

00:40:36.067 --> 00:40:37.887
that really wasn't the movement of Jesus.

00:40:38.369 --> 00:40:39.748
Jesus was about inviting

00:40:39.809 --> 00:40:41.090
people and about a choice,

00:40:41.150 --> 00:40:42.231
and that's what ultimately

00:40:42.291 --> 00:40:44.291
spirituality of any kind is.

00:40:44.851 --> 00:40:45.652
And they know that they

00:40:45.713 --> 00:40:47.373
don't want their faith legislated.

00:40:47.713 --> 00:40:48.534
So I think the Christian

00:40:48.574 --> 00:40:49.855
nationalists are really

00:40:49.914 --> 00:40:51.695
coming up against –

00:40:51.695 --> 00:40:54.518
society evolving past some of that.

00:40:55.059 --> 00:40:56.019
And yet they have this sort

00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:58.742
of last gasp as a dying dinosaur.

00:40:58.862 --> 00:41:00.262
And they've had that with Trump.

00:41:00.302 --> 00:41:01.704
They've had that sort of power.

00:41:02.184 --> 00:41:03.204
And so it's really we're at

00:41:03.224 --> 00:41:05.467
this point where who's going to win?

00:41:05.606 --> 00:41:06.728
Is this thing going to die

00:41:06.867 --> 00:41:07.809
out or at least be

00:41:08.048 --> 00:41:09.250
irrelevant enough that it

00:41:09.309 --> 00:41:10.110
won't have power?

00:41:10.610 --> 00:41:11.791
Or is it going to be able to

00:41:12.532 --> 00:41:13.773
get itself into a place

00:41:13.853 --> 00:41:15.896
after November that they

00:41:15.936 --> 00:41:16.856
can't not be moved?

00:41:16.976 --> 00:41:18.217
So that's a really strange

00:41:18.518 --> 00:41:20.018
spot that our nation is in.

00:41:20.666 --> 00:41:21.847
Yeah, no, I know.

00:41:21.927 --> 00:41:23.367
And, and, and your book you write,

00:41:23.487 --> 00:41:24.088
and this is a,

00:41:25.188 --> 00:41:26.090
obviously an issue that's a

00:41:26.150 --> 00:41:28.972
great passion for me and meaning for me.

00:41:28.992 --> 00:41:30.753
And I, and I've seen it in your sub stack,

00:41:30.793 --> 00:41:32.655
you know, um, the horror,

00:41:32.815 --> 00:41:34.096
the horrors of October 7th

00:41:34.135 --> 00:41:36.577
and what happened to Israel, uh, the,

00:41:36.818 --> 00:41:38.159
the bloody massacre of what

00:41:38.179 --> 00:41:39.079
would amount to be almost

00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:40.199
40,000 Americans.

00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:40.760
Cause you know,

00:41:40.780 --> 00:41:42.621
there's 9 million Israelis in total.

00:41:43.385 --> 00:41:45.007
And obviously the response,

00:41:45.286 --> 00:41:46.487
and I'm a Zionist,

00:41:46.628 --> 00:41:48.349
and I can dislike Bibi Netanyahu,

00:41:48.369 --> 00:41:51.070
but still see Israel must defend itself.

00:41:51.831 --> 00:41:53.273
Your book does a great job,

00:41:54.132 --> 00:41:55.594
but I really want to push

00:41:55.614 --> 00:41:56.695
you on this other issue

00:41:56.775 --> 00:41:58.916
about the sort of Christian anti-Semitism,

00:41:58.976 --> 00:42:01.338
the old right-wing anti-Semitism,

00:42:01.358 --> 00:42:01.998
stuff like that.

00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:05.701
Christians justifying anti-Semitism,

00:42:05.721 --> 00:42:08.282
forgetting the traditions of Jesus,

00:42:08.362 --> 00:42:09.684
the rabbi born in Judea,

00:42:10.284 --> 00:42:11.565
the carpenter from Nazareth,

00:42:11.625 --> 00:42:12.106
all this stuff.

00:42:13.501 --> 00:42:14.623
The thing that you're seeing

00:42:14.682 --> 00:42:16.143
right now that I think is

00:42:16.625 --> 00:42:17.865
absolutely horrific,

00:42:17.905 --> 00:42:19.626
and I think just because it

00:42:19.686 --> 00:42:21.528
isn't manifested by

00:42:21.588 --> 00:42:22.590
right-wing people at this

00:42:22.650 --> 00:42:24.831
time is the far-left

00:42:24.891 --> 00:42:27.494
progressive response to what's going on,

00:42:27.574 --> 00:42:29.695
to this radicalization on campus, which,

00:42:29.735 --> 00:42:31.336
by the way, is deeply illiberal.

00:42:31.356 --> 00:42:33.838
It has nothing to do with religion,

00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:36.362
but it absolutely, I think,

00:42:36.521 --> 00:42:37.643
overlooks the horrors and

00:42:37.702 --> 00:42:38.923
atrocities of Hamas.

00:42:39.521 --> 00:42:41.864
and what Israel lives with and against.

00:42:43.023 --> 00:42:44.344
Obviously, war is hell,

00:42:44.985 --> 00:42:47.086
and it always has been.

00:42:47.146 --> 00:42:49.527
There's 9 million dead Germans.

00:42:49.547 --> 00:42:51.028
There were 4 million dead Japanese.

00:42:51.068 --> 00:42:53.030
We nuked 100,000 of them in two cities.

00:42:53.150 --> 00:42:54.110
I'm not justifying it.

00:42:54.130 --> 00:42:55.271
I'm just saying it's what we've done.

00:42:55.711 --> 00:42:56.552
Killed hundreds of thousands

00:42:56.572 --> 00:42:57.673
of people in Afghanistan.

00:42:58.813 --> 00:43:01.295
But this particular movement,

00:43:02.177 --> 00:43:03.797
even though it's under the guise of, oh,

00:43:03.818 --> 00:43:04.838
we're angry at Israel,

00:43:04.878 --> 00:43:06.820
or we're anti-Israel, or anti-Zionist,

00:43:07.099 --> 00:43:09.041
but globalize the intifada.

00:43:09.605 --> 00:43:10.704
Hamas are our people.

00:43:10.804 --> 00:43:11.985
Burn Tel Aviv to the ground.

00:43:12.025 --> 00:43:13.766
That is not a peace movement.

00:43:14.565 --> 00:43:16.266
And this is not a right-wing movement.

00:43:16.286 --> 00:43:18.086
And I just feel as an independent,

00:43:18.106 --> 00:43:19.666
because I don't talk for either party,

00:43:20.027 --> 00:43:21.047
but I'm also a Jew,

00:43:21.068 --> 00:43:24.329
I just can't understand why

00:43:24.809 --> 00:43:26.228
every single Democrat isn't

00:43:26.309 --> 00:43:27.429
fervently condemning this.

00:43:27.648 --> 00:43:29.250
I'm not saying every Republican's an angel,

00:43:29.670 --> 00:43:30.789
but there are a lot of

00:43:30.829 --> 00:43:32.351
Christians in the Republican Party,

00:43:32.371 --> 00:43:33.431
and I know we can talk

00:43:33.471 --> 00:43:34.150
about evangelical

00:43:34.170 --> 00:43:35.570
Christianity's relationship to Israel,

00:43:35.610 --> 00:43:37.791
but quite frankly, I don't share their

00:43:38.213 --> 00:43:40.034
views on revelation, so I don't care.

00:43:40.536 --> 00:43:42.677
Israel needs its support.

00:43:43.237 --> 00:43:45.679
And I'm seeing this sickness on the left.

00:43:45.898 --> 00:43:47.199
And I know you're an independent.

00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.521
I know you're anti-MAGA,

00:43:48.641 --> 00:43:53.423
as am I. None of this is to

00:43:53.483 --> 00:43:55.224
say that there isn't a real

00:43:55.284 --> 00:43:57.027
threat of democracy from the right.

00:43:57.367 --> 00:43:58.507
But how do you address this?

00:43:58.608 --> 00:43:59.327
Besides, oh,

00:43:59.387 --> 00:44:00.969
kids shouldn't be killed in Gaza.

00:44:00.989 --> 00:44:01.789
Of course they shouldn't.

00:44:01.829 --> 00:44:03.731
But what do you do, you know,

00:44:04.130 --> 00:44:06.472
with this spread of toxicity?

00:44:08.197 --> 00:44:11.297
Yeah, I talk to folks every day, you know,

00:44:11.978 --> 00:44:13.398
online, but really offline.

00:44:13.458 --> 00:44:15.298
And so many conversations

00:44:15.940 --> 00:44:17.780
and rabbis and imams and

00:44:17.860 --> 00:44:18.920
everyone's trying to figure

00:44:19.021 --> 00:44:20.641
out how can I speak into

00:44:20.681 --> 00:44:22.461
this moment in a way that I

00:44:22.521 --> 00:44:24.061
can be heard beyond the

00:44:24.101 --> 00:44:26.543
sort of immediate response

00:44:27.083 --> 00:44:29.164
that I get to the questions

00:44:29.264 --> 00:44:31.644
or the complexities of it.

00:44:31.844 --> 00:44:33.625
And I think that's where we are right now.

00:44:33.744 --> 00:44:34.965
It's still so...

00:44:36.626 --> 00:44:40.150
so fraught with lack of information.

00:44:40.349 --> 00:44:41.391
I think so many of us,

00:44:41.471 --> 00:44:42.751
it's such a foreign thing

00:44:42.811 --> 00:44:44.373
to us that we want

00:44:44.432 --> 00:44:45.554
something quick that makes

00:44:45.653 --> 00:44:46.775
us feel righteous.

00:44:47.155 --> 00:44:49.056
We want to do something

00:44:49.157 --> 00:44:51.219
tangible so that we can

00:44:51.259 --> 00:44:53.420
sort of get this unthinkable

00:44:54.340 --> 00:44:56.422
you know, death off of our shoulders.

00:44:56.663 --> 00:44:57.063
And that's,

00:44:57.143 --> 00:44:59.324
I think you see a laziness that

00:44:59.364 --> 00:45:01.246
just falls into, okay,

00:45:01.266 --> 00:45:02.326
this is what we're doing.

00:45:02.385 --> 00:45:04.027
This is the immediate response.

00:45:04.146 --> 00:45:05.867
So there's just not a lot of

00:45:05.927 --> 00:45:07.248
time for people to sit and

00:45:07.329 --> 00:45:09.411
grieve all of this.

00:45:09.610 --> 00:45:09.851
Right.

00:45:09.990 --> 00:45:13.032
And so I think that's just where politics,

00:45:13.512 --> 00:45:13.833
the,

00:45:14.733 --> 00:45:17.476
the limitations of the collective are

00:45:17.516 --> 00:45:19.157
showing up again on the left,

00:45:19.237 --> 00:45:20.998
as well as it happens on the right side.

00:45:21.938 --> 00:45:23.420
And I'm in a place where I

00:45:23.541 --> 00:45:25.023
genuinely want to come in a

00:45:25.083 --> 00:45:27.005
spirit of understanding so

00:45:27.025 --> 00:45:29.086
that I can translate for the other.

00:45:30.047 --> 00:45:31.389
And there's often you're

00:45:31.429 --> 00:45:33.291
vilified for even trying to

00:45:33.351 --> 00:45:35.253
make that because you're, you know,

00:45:35.414 --> 00:45:37.177
characterized as making a

00:45:37.237 --> 00:45:38.818
concession to one group or another.

00:45:38.838 --> 00:45:40.519
I think most people are just

00:45:41.041 --> 00:45:42.541
This is unfathomable stuff.

00:45:42.862 --> 00:45:44.461
And so it's hard to figure out, like,

00:45:44.822 --> 00:45:46.242
what is my response as a

00:45:46.282 --> 00:45:47.802
decent human being supposed to be?

00:45:48.422 --> 00:45:49.702
Politicians are one thing,

00:45:49.842 --> 00:45:51.423
and they have a different motivation.

00:45:51.963 --> 00:45:55.244
Or the media members, they can manipulate.

00:45:55.304 --> 00:45:56.784
We know why they do those things.

00:45:56.885 --> 00:45:58.126
But average people,

00:45:58.686 --> 00:46:00.246
they're just kind of swept up in it.

00:46:01.005 --> 00:46:01.306
Yeah.

00:46:01.746 --> 00:46:03.666
I mean, I think, you know,

00:46:03.947 --> 00:46:05.387
especially in Worth Fighting For,

00:46:05.487 --> 00:46:06.947
but in the arc of your work,

00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:07.760
you know,

00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:09.021
you speak of the collective and

00:46:09.061 --> 00:46:10.141
you speak of humanity and

00:46:10.161 --> 00:46:11.123
you speak about getting

00:46:11.222 --> 00:46:12.324
back down to right to

00:46:12.423 --> 00:46:14.704
understanding people and understanding,

00:46:15.126 --> 00:46:16.626
you know, not in a cliched sense,

00:46:16.666 --> 00:46:17.927
but what humanity is.

00:46:18.347 --> 00:46:18.648
Okay.

00:46:19.009 --> 00:46:20.128
And that's what defines us.

00:46:20.188 --> 00:46:21.050
And I, and I speak,

00:46:21.110 --> 00:46:22.972
I bring this up for a specific reason.

00:46:23.592 --> 00:46:24.652
You know, one of the things,

00:46:24.693 --> 00:46:25.572
and I've written about it

00:46:25.632 --> 00:46:27.715
extensively on my sub stack

00:46:28.315 --> 00:46:31.637
is that even with the well-meaning

00:46:32.059 --> 00:46:35.440
earned or laudable aims of progressivism,

00:46:35.481 --> 00:46:36.541
of which I have policy

00:46:36.581 --> 00:46:37.561
disagreements respectfully,

00:46:37.601 --> 00:46:38.581
but certainly there's some

00:46:38.762 --> 00:46:39.882
wonderful values that

00:46:39.943 --> 00:46:41.804
animate what it means to be progressive.

00:46:43.744 --> 00:46:45.405
The oppression hierarchy

00:46:45.425 --> 00:46:47.326
that's come out of universities,

00:46:47.445 --> 00:46:48.846
come out of binary thinking,

00:46:49.045 --> 00:46:50.106
along racial lines,

00:46:50.166 --> 00:46:51.327
the white oppressor versus

00:46:51.347 --> 00:46:52.728
non-white oppressor, very simple,

00:46:52.788 --> 00:46:53.628
reductive stuff,

00:46:54.228 --> 00:46:56.108
has been said to a generation of people,

00:46:56.128 --> 00:46:56.849
and then they've shared

00:46:56.889 --> 00:46:57.989
that on social media,

00:46:58.429 --> 00:46:59.110
and so on and so forth,

00:46:59.170 --> 00:47:01.251
where identity trumps everything.

00:47:02.114 --> 00:47:03.896
that if, look,

00:47:04.396 --> 00:47:05.737
one of my closest parents'

00:47:05.777 --> 00:47:06.679
friends growing up was a

00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:08.340
Mizrahi Jew from Iraq.

00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:09.601
I mean, if you looked at this man,

00:47:09.661 --> 00:47:10.523
he is not white.

00:47:11.376 --> 00:47:12.697
never thought about it until

00:47:12.717 --> 00:47:14.257
this this new nouveau way

00:47:14.297 --> 00:47:15.277
of thinking said he is

00:47:15.378 --> 00:47:16.478
white which of course he

00:47:16.538 --> 00:47:18.438
isn't half of Israel isn't

00:47:18.458 --> 00:47:19.559
white but my larger point

00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:20.739
is that we if we're working

00:47:20.778 --> 00:47:22.599
toward humanity right and

00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:24.400
we're challenging these

00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:26.300
shibboleths of MAGA this

00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:27.900
these these fear-based

00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:29.840
divisive fundamentally

00:47:30.061 --> 00:47:31.822
democratic ideas don't you

00:47:31.842 --> 00:47:32.942
think it's worth moving

00:47:33.041 --> 00:47:34.342
people off of it doesn't

00:47:34.382 --> 00:47:36.103
mean right that that

00:47:36.539 --> 00:47:38.079
You can't be proud as a gay man,

00:47:38.139 --> 00:47:38.940
or it doesn't mean that

00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:40.420
your life doesn't matter if you're black.

00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:41.961
It also matters if you're Jewish.

00:47:42.342 --> 00:47:43.543
But don't you think that all

00:47:43.563 --> 00:47:44.483
of those things become

00:47:44.563 --> 00:47:46.224
secondary to trying to

00:47:46.545 --> 00:47:48.266
reclaim our collective humanity,

00:47:48.706 --> 00:47:51.367
that our personal views and

00:47:51.407 --> 00:47:53.248
our values are shaped by so

00:47:53.289 --> 00:47:56.771
much more than just our grouping?

00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:00.021
Yeah, most definitely.

00:48:00.101 --> 00:48:02.023
And I think, you know,

00:48:02.063 --> 00:48:03.746
people are intellectually

00:48:03.887 --> 00:48:05.588
lazy in general.

00:48:06.168 --> 00:48:07.391
And so they don't want to

00:48:07.550 --> 00:48:08.891
kind of dig into things,

00:48:09.132 --> 00:48:11.474
complex issues and really look for, well,

00:48:11.494 --> 00:48:12.637
what are the flaws in even

00:48:12.697 --> 00:48:13.657
my perspective?

00:48:13.797 --> 00:48:15.519
And that's not something we normally do.

00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:17.362
And with the speed and activity of life,

00:48:17.442 --> 00:48:19.063
everyone just wants a quick response.

00:48:19.623 --> 00:48:20.284
sense of, oh,

00:48:20.304 --> 00:48:21.164
here's what I believe and

00:48:21.204 --> 00:48:22.706
here's how it's going to go.

00:48:22.726 --> 00:48:24.967
And I think you see that the

00:48:25.027 --> 00:48:26.307
lack of critical thinking

00:48:26.467 --> 00:48:27.648
happens regardless of

00:48:28.128 --> 00:48:29.329
whether you're progressive

00:48:29.670 --> 00:48:30.650
or conservative.

00:48:31.231 --> 00:48:31.751
And so it's,

00:48:31.811 --> 00:48:33.893
can I continue to be critical

00:48:34.152 --> 00:48:35.153
of my own position?

00:48:35.193 --> 00:48:35.693
Can I have the

00:48:35.753 --> 00:48:37.775
self-awareness to examine

00:48:37.914 --> 00:48:39.175
myself personally?

00:48:39.376 --> 00:48:40.996
And then whatever groups I'm

00:48:41.016 --> 00:48:41.898
associated with,

00:48:42.398 --> 00:48:44.458
I shouldn't be beholden to those groups.

00:48:44.900 --> 00:48:45.219
I don't

00:48:45.659 --> 00:48:50.106
I don't owe anyone absolute agreement.

00:48:50.487 --> 00:48:50.889
In fact,

00:48:50.949 --> 00:48:52.431
that the essence of who we are

00:48:52.490 --> 00:48:53.333
should be that we're

00:48:53.353 --> 00:48:54.454
fighting for the common good.

00:48:54.494 --> 00:48:55.936
And if my political party or

00:48:55.956 --> 00:48:57.018
my religious tradition

00:48:57.771 --> 00:48:59.451
is fighting that I should be

00:48:59.510 --> 00:49:00.871
confrontational toward it.

00:49:01.012 --> 00:49:02.692
And it's not a sign that I

00:49:02.731 --> 00:49:04.913
don't care deeply about those, you know,

00:49:04.952 --> 00:49:05.813
those traditions.

00:49:05.952 --> 00:49:07.512
It means I respect them

00:49:07.572 --> 00:49:09.173
enough to want to challenge them.

00:49:09.833 --> 00:49:10.253
And we don't,

00:49:10.313 --> 00:49:11.393
I don't think we have enough

00:49:11.434 --> 00:49:12.494
of that of people saying,

00:49:12.594 --> 00:49:13.494
I'm going to push back

00:49:13.554 --> 00:49:15.735
against whatever my party line is,

00:49:16.235 --> 00:49:17.195
because I feel like it's

00:49:17.295 --> 00:49:18.175
the right thing to do.

00:49:19.496 --> 00:49:19.755
Yeah.

00:49:20.217 --> 00:49:23.097
I mean, I think, you know,

00:49:23.197 --> 00:49:25.137
you're obviously your spiritual work is,

00:49:25.418 --> 00:49:25.878
is, um,

00:49:27.753 --> 00:49:29.054
is so deeply woven into you.

00:49:29.094 --> 00:49:30.434
And I think, again, we're all,

00:49:30.695 --> 00:49:31.735
so many people are lacking

00:49:31.815 --> 00:49:33.496
so much meaning, but I think I love,

00:49:33.516 --> 00:49:34.797
excuse me,

00:49:35.177 --> 00:49:36.978
I love that the end of your

00:49:36.998 --> 00:49:39.199
book kind of reclaims patriotism too,

00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:41.740
you know, that you really do say,

00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:44.762
you know, yes, we've done our stuff.

00:49:44.802 --> 00:49:45.864
Not everything we've done is right,

00:49:45.903 --> 00:49:47.304
but America is a great country.

00:49:47.403 --> 00:49:49.985
And, you know, it's like you write,

00:49:50.025 --> 00:49:50.985
it may be inconvenient and

00:49:51.025 --> 00:49:51.847
comfortable and painful,

00:49:51.887 --> 00:49:53.608
but that is the price of liberty, right?

00:49:53.648 --> 00:49:55.027
A price each generation pays

00:49:55.108 --> 00:49:55.989
forward to the next.

00:49:56.652 --> 00:49:57.193
you know,

00:49:57.454 --> 00:49:59.054
and how do you move off of what

00:49:59.074 --> 00:50:00.976
you call indecision, selfishness, apathy,

00:50:01.016 --> 00:50:03.498
complacency feeds into that, right?

00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:07.563
That, you know, like you say,

00:50:08.384 --> 00:50:09.925
you don't know what grieves

00:50:09.965 --> 00:50:11.847
you most right now, but you do.

00:50:12.327 --> 00:50:13.869
I don't know, excuse me, meaning you, John,

00:50:13.929 --> 00:50:14.670
don't know what grieves

00:50:14.710 --> 00:50:15.610
each individual person,

00:50:16.030 --> 00:50:18.213
but you can do something and you can take

00:50:18.856 --> 00:50:20.539
the blueprint of this country,

00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:22.360
the longest and largest and

00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:23.061
most enduring

00:50:23.121 --> 00:50:25.123
self-governing experience in history,

00:50:25.302 --> 00:50:26.284
still a very young country,

00:50:26.784 --> 00:50:28.927
and continue to improve it.

00:50:29.467 --> 00:50:30.307
And I think those are,

00:50:30.527 --> 00:50:33.650
I think the idea of patriotism mixed with,

00:50:34.351 --> 00:50:36.753
patriotism as a means of healing sadness,

00:50:37.293 --> 00:50:39.817
you know, working toward ameliorating

00:50:40.472 --> 00:50:41.514
mitigating that grief is a

00:50:41.574 --> 00:50:42.594
beautiful sentiment and i

00:50:42.653 --> 00:50:43.894
wanted to kind of conclude

00:50:43.914 --> 00:50:44.916
with that because i think

00:50:44.976 --> 00:50:45.896
it concludes the book

00:50:45.936 --> 00:50:48.277
beautifully um and what you

00:50:48.297 --> 00:50:50.498
call the future uh the future we want

00:50:51.326 --> 00:50:52.547
Well, Adam,

00:50:52.567 --> 00:50:53.847
I think that's the other thing

00:50:53.867 --> 00:50:56.030
that this sort of continual

00:50:56.090 --> 00:50:57.492
culture war tribal thing

00:50:57.552 --> 00:50:59.052
happens is what it said is

00:50:59.112 --> 00:51:00.014
there's a group of people

00:51:00.074 --> 00:51:02.356
who we love America, you don't.

00:51:03.077 --> 00:51:05.418
And the idea is, no, we, you know,

00:51:05.438 --> 00:51:07.440
someone like myself who leans more left,

00:51:07.721 --> 00:51:10.322
I love what this nation aspires to be.

00:51:10.362 --> 00:51:11.724
And I know all its flaws and

00:51:11.764 --> 00:51:12.706
all its imperfections.

00:51:13.186 --> 00:51:15.088
But I know what it could be.

00:51:15.467 --> 00:51:18.190
I think that's the desire for most of us,

00:51:18.309 --> 00:51:19.710
most people getting up every day.

00:51:20.211 --> 00:51:21.992
If they're not at the extreme ends,

00:51:22.052 --> 00:51:23.655
like you said, this humane middle,

00:51:24.195 --> 00:51:25.056
they want that.

00:51:25.757 --> 00:51:26.876
And I try to let people know,

00:51:26.936 --> 00:51:28.518
even if they're politically opposite me,

00:51:28.998 --> 00:51:29.679
I'm for them.

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:30.239
You know,

00:51:30.340 --> 00:51:31.679
I want health care for their

00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:33.081
families as much as my own.

00:51:33.101 --> 00:51:35.041
I want safer, you know,

00:51:35.161 --> 00:51:36.802
streets for their kids is

00:51:36.862 --> 00:51:38.481
for my own and all those things.

00:51:38.561 --> 00:51:41.103
And so we should be interdependent.

00:51:41.143 --> 00:51:42.143
We should realize that we're

00:51:42.182 --> 00:51:43.043
tethered together.

00:51:43.063 --> 00:51:45.824
And if the book helps people remember that,

00:51:46.423 --> 00:51:47.643
then that will be a great thing.

00:51:47.664 --> 00:51:51.065
Yeah, no, it really is.

00:51:51.164 --> 00:51:54.106
And I love having you on, John, because,

00:51:54.346 --> 00:51:54.706
you know,

00:51:55.065 --> 00:51:56.427
my favorite president is Abe Lincoln.

00:51:56.626 --> 00:51:58.327
And I can't help but always quote him.

00:51:58.896 --> 00:52:01.059
And Lincoln was infused,

00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:02.840
as you probably well know, with a deep,

00:52:02.860 --> 00:52:04.400
I mean, he was raised a Baptist,

00:52:04.822 --> 00:52:06.483
but he moved away from that

00:52:06.523 --> 00:52:07.583
toward a deeper sense of

00:52:07.724 --> 00:52:08.284
chronic Christian

00:52:08.304 --> 00:52:09.465
understanding of spirituality,

00:52:09.485 --> 00:52:10.746
which animated so much of

00:52:10.806 --> 00:52:11.467
how he governed.

00:52:11.927 --> 00:52:13.327
But of course, in that first inaugural,

00:52:13.347 --> 00:52:14.188
when he says the better

00:52:14.228 --> 00:52:15.170
angels of our nature,

00:52:15.510 --> 00:52:18.172
you're the embodiment of that.

00:52:18.251 --> 00:52:19.793
And if we can aspire to that,

00:52:20.072 --> 00:52:21.574
we're better people.

00:52:21.594 --> 00:52:23.896
I believe you're a leader in that.

00:52:24.516 --> 00:52:26.719
And that's something to always remember.

00:52:26.998 --> 00:52:27.898
I know that

00:52:29.050 --> 00:52:30.152
animates you, but it's like,

00:52:30.192 --> 00:52:31.271
that's what Lincoln said.

00:52:31.311 --> 00:52:31.572
You know,

00:52:31.612 --> 00:52:33.393
we can be frustrated right now in

00:52:33.414 --> 00:52:33.853
this country.

00:52:33.893 --> 00:52:34.775
We can agonize.

00:52:34.815 --> 00:52:36.715
We can know that, for example,

00:52:36.755 --> 00:52:37.516
somebody like me,

00:52:38.717 --> 00:52:39.958
doesn't love the direction

00:52:40.057 --> 00:52:41.257
Biden has taken in certain

00:52:41.297 --> 00:52:42.079
places and that,

00:52:42.219 --> 00:52:43.320
and we have policy differences,

00:52:43.780 --> 00:52:45.760
but that's not the larger question.

00:52:45.820 --> 00:52:47.041
A larger question is who are we?

00:52:47.621 --> 00:52:48.643
What do we stand for?

00:52:48.663 --> 00:52:50.204
What kind of country do we want to have?

00:52:50.704 --> 00:52:53.686
And let's not let those

00:52:54.067 --> 00:52:57.708
things that appeal to our

00:52:57.829 --> 00:52:59.831
devils trump our better angels.

00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:02.800
Yeah, that's it, man, because, you know,

00:53:02.900 --> 00:53:03.240
people,

00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:04.581
this country hopefully will

00:53:04.681 --> 00:53:06.282
outlive the two, you know,

00:53:06.322 --> 00:53:07.583
current candidates for president.

00:53:07.603 --> 00:53:08.123
They're going to out,

00:53:08.222 --> 00:53:09.184
it's going to outlive us.

00:53:09.463 --> 00:53:11.123
I think that's a guarantee.

00:53:11.143 --> 00:53:12.125
These two guys,

00:53:12.184 --> 00:53:13.445
I'm not wishing anybody death.

00:53:14.065 --> 00:53:14.945
You know,

00:53:15.025 --> 00:53:16.266
someone's going to inherit what

00:53:16.306 --> 00:53:17.547
we leave them and we've

00:53:17.606 --> 00:53:18.567
inherited something from

00:53:18.586 --> 00:53:19.487
those who came from us.

00:53:19.527 --> 00:53:21.128
So it's about this place in

00:53:21.168 --> 00:53:22.228
time and history and let's

00:53:22.289 --> 00:53:23.590
do something responsible

00:53:23.630 --> 00:53:24.530
with it so that there's

00:53:24.570 --> 00:53:26.831
something worth inheriting down the line.

00:53:27.931 --> 00:53:28.672
Yeah, indeed.

00:53:29.034 --> 00:53:29.914
John Pavlovitz,

00:53:29.994 --> 00:53:31.577
his latest book is worth

00:53:31.637 --> 00:53:32.579
fighting for finding

00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:33.981
courage and compassion when

00:53:34.041 --> 00:53:34.963
cruelty is trending.

00:53:35.264 --> 00:53:36.106
John, before we go,

00:53:36.146 --> 00:53:37.186
where can everybody find

00:53:37.226 --> 00:53:38.068
you on the socials?

00:53:38.128 --> 00:53:39.291
Cause I know you are ubiquitous.

00:53:39.887 --> 00:53:41.708
Yeah, well, if you can spell my last name,

00:53:41.789 --> 00:53:43.909
P-A-V-L-O-V-I-T-Z,

00:53:43.949 --> 00:53:44.911
there's not a lot of John

00:53:44.971 --> 00:53:46.251
Pavlovitz's out there.

00:53:46.291 --> 00:53:49.474
So you'll probably find me on Facebook, X,

00:53:49.594 --> 00:53:51.936
Instagram, Substack, on my website.

00:53:52.237 --> 00:53:53.697
And just look forward to

00:53:53.757 --> 00:53:56.059
connecting with your readers and viewers.

00:53:56.701 --> 00:53:57.221
As always.

00:53:57.601 --> 00:53:57.961
John,

00:53:58.001 --> 00:53:59.983
you're nothing if not among our

00:54:00.023 --> 00:54:00.583
better angels.

00:54:00.603 --> 00:54:01.644
And I thank you for being a

00:54:01.684 --> 00:54:03.126
friend of the show and for your work,

00:54:03.346 --> 00:54:03.786
of course.

00:54:03.806 --> 00:54:06.568
Thank you, Adam.

00:54:06.588 --> 00:54:07.590
Really glad to be with you.

00:54:09.157 --> 00:54:10.221
Yep, great to have you.

00:54:10.340 --> 00:54:11.103
Always come back.

00:54:11.123 --> 00:54:11.824
You're always welcome.

00:54:11.864 --> 00:54:12.987
Dirty Moderates, in the meantime,

00:54:13.068 --> 00:54:15.394
stay dirty, stay moderate, and stay safe.