Voices for Voices®

From Cult Conditioning To Child Protection: Kim Kelley’s Survivor-Led Blueprint | Ep 389

• Founder of Voices for Voices®, Justin Alan Hayes • Season 4 • Episode 389

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From Cult Conditioning To Child Protection: Kim Kelley’s Survivor-Led Blueprint | Ep 389

What if the most reliable alarm for control is this: truth doesn’t mind being questioned? That line unlocks the heart of our conversation with Kim Kelley, a nationally recognized child safety advocate and survivor who translates lived experience into practical systems that protect kids in the real world and the digital one.

We start by separating adult influence from child conditioning. Adults can choose to leave; children can’t. Kim maps how coercive groups rewire reality—teaching “red is blue,” punishing questions, and rewarding loyalty—then shares her ten rules of every cult so you can spot the playbook anywhere it appears: in religious communities, closed online networks, or glossy “good works” fronts. The goal isn’t cynicism; it’s clarity that fuels action.

From there, we move into what actually helps: safe landing zones before therapy, survivor‑informed aftercare that avoids re‑traumatizing requirements, and patient deprogramming grounded in validation. Kim’s reframing is powerful: a coward harmed a child; the survivor is the badass who lived and chose to heal. We scrutinize the pressure to “forgive and forget,” the pitfalls of box‑checking nonprofits, and how performative activism drains resources without changing outcomes. Instead, Kim outlines concrete steps—law enforcement training, tech safeguards for families, smarter community operations—that turn outrage into prevention.

If you care about child protection, online safety, and trauma‑informed support, this conversation gives you tools, language, and resolve. Take one tangible step today—audit a device, set a family agreement, share the checklist with a friend, or connect your local agency to survivor‑led training. Subscribe, rate, and share to help more people trade awareness for action.

Chapter Markers

0:00 Welcome Back And Context

6:40 Defining Brainwashing For Adults vs Kids

18:20 Ten Rules Of Every Cult

31:30 How Survivors Escape And Deprogram

43:10 Patience, Truth, And Red Flags

52:30 Systems, Safe Houses, And Bias

#KimKelley #ChildTrafficking #TraumaToMission #EndChildTrafficking #SurvivorStories #ActivismAgainstTrafficking #ExposeTrafficking #HumanRightsAdvocate #BreakTheSilence #EmpowerSurvivors #DisruptTraffickingNetworks #SocialJusticeWarrior #HealingFromTrauma #ProtectChildrenNow #CrisisAwareness #justiceforsurvivors #VoicesforVoices #VoicesforVoicesPodcast #JustinAlanHayes #JustinHayes #help3billion #TikTok #Instagram #truth #Jesusaire #VoiceForChange #HealingTogether #VoicesForVoices389

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Voices for Voices, Justin Alan Hayes:

Hey everyone, it's Justin here, Voices for Voices. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the show. Uh, we have part two of our discussion with Kim Kelley on this particular uh episode show. And if you tuned in to her first episode, it was just totally awesome to have all the context, the backstories, uh, all the details, and we're gonna continue on that path. I I just wanna read uh a little bit off of uh Kim's uh uh CV resume uh for those in case you haven't watched or listened to her first episode, uh, so you can have a little bit of context about who who she is, and uh then we're gonna dive right in. There's so much to to get to, and we're just grateful for her time uh to to spend with with us. And we want to thank our viewers and listeners uh from all over the world. It's it's incredible the feedback uh we're we're getting and we're moving slowly from that awareness of what's going on to the action of actually helping and putting things in into motion, which is all about what Kim does in her uh her line of work. Uh so pulling from Kim's uh resume, quote, Kim Kelley is a nationally recognized advocate for child safety, survivor of two decades of child trafficking and cult abuse, and a trusted consultant to law enforcement. She was born into the notorious Children of God cult in Brazil, where her parents held senior leadership roles. Kim endured systemic abuse and trafficking across Brazil, Mexico, and the United States. After she escaped at age twenty, Kim rebuilt her life as a serial entrepreneur, founding businesses in digital marketing, sports apparel, and wellness. And I'm gonna continue. At twenty-nine, Kim channeled her resilience into combating child trafficking and exploitation, and she later founded Digital Defenders United, which is a nonprofit dedicated dedicated to eradicating child exploitation through survivor-focused advocacy, law enforcement training, and cutting-edge technology solutions. Known as the Fearless Voice, Kim collaborates with local, state, and federal agencies, tech giants, policy makers, and survivor networks to develop immersive trauma-informed training, improve digital safeguards, and also champion policy reforms that are critical to child protection. Her first hand insights into grooming, brainwashing, and trauma-informed aftercare empower her to train law enforcement, assistant investigations, collaborate with tech innovators, advocate for survivors, and work undercover in predator state operations. Her leadership has shaped groundbreaking programs, technological advancements, and awareness campaigns reaching millions nationwide. She brings a survivor-centered perspective and actionable expertise from tactical field operations to national media campaigns and policy initiatives. Kim, thank you so much for joining us for uh a second show. We enjoyed thoroughly the the first show. Yeah, I can't wait to to learn learn more. Um I think I just wanna I wanna pick up a little bit on the brainwashing. Uh spoke a little bit about that in the in the earlier episode. Um is that something that is easy to say easy? How can one find out if they're being brainwashed? Is that something that it just comes with maturity, getting older, or how how would a person know that unless they're being rescued by somebody that knows that?

Kim Kelley:

So let's get more specific so we can define the premise here, right? Because brainwashing can be applied in a lot of different ways. Like if you've been to some kind of carnival cruise line and there was like a hypnotist and he hypnotized people into doing things they would not normally do on stage, right? There's so many different levels to this. I just want to kind of narrow down the question for the sake because I please I'm gonna rephrase it from what I think you mean, just to make sure I'm answering the question, right? When it comes to adults being brainwashed, let me refer the public to a few things they may have already researched, and if not, they should, right? We know of successful programs that have been done successfully on adults. You can look up the MK Ultra program, you can look up Operation Mockingbird, like there's lots of different ways that fully grown humans that have not been, you know, necessarily closed off to the outside world can be influenced or manipulated by propaganda or information. Look at, you know, lots of different examples throughout history. So we know it's effective, right? How does one do program themselves? Well, it depends on the situation, right? Who's saying what, to who, why, how, like what is the environment here? All right, so let's leave all the adults out of this for the sake of this conversation and let's narrow that down to children. Now, in the first episode, I likened being born and raised in a cult and all the propaganda you're being fed from day one, like being born and raised under a rock and you're told red is blue, and that's all you know as a child. Now, thoughts and prayers to all the adults who decided to join the cult and decided to perpetuate the belief that red is blue, right? But they certainly knew better, right? So I'm just gonna talk about my personal parents, but let's apply this to every single grown-ass adult who decided to join a cult, right? Despite how vulnerable and searching for community and sad your life was, right? You decided to join a cult where you felt accepted and free hugs and love, and that's great. But they also asked you to believe red is blue. So you had to suspend your critical thinking at some point. Now I'm gonna make the assumption, right? When, again, we're talking adults who have the contrast of knowing blue is blue and what blue looks like, right? They're joining this cult. It's not an overnight decision. It's not like on day one, they're like red is blue, and you have to believe that. But it's a series of abolishing critical thinking. So again, that's gradually. What I want to unpack here is the psychological patterns of how it happens so that we can reverse engineer it. So I'm also gonna be focusing more on this realm of child exploitation and cults, which is much broader, right? But specifically cults where children are harmed, like the one I was raised in. Okay. But I'm also gonna be unpacking the 10 rules of every cult, which is something I wrote. But it's a what it's a it's something I wrote late at night and it all came out at once. And I've run it by a lot of experts. And so far, no one's had anything to add. And I'd love to see if anyone has feedback for it because it's totally based on my theory and perspective, but it's a pretty comprehensive list of how this works so that people can understand the patterns. Or, like I like to say, we can't solve a problem we don't understand. So none of this is justification. This is about understanding so that we can reverse engineer it or help people get out of it, right? So I'm gonna be doing this contrast of adults versus children because it's a very different body of water, right? If you knew blue was blue and you grew up the whole life knowing blue is blue and exactly what blue looks like, versus if you've been born and raised under a rock and you've never seen blue and you're told red is blue, and that's what's normal to you. Okay. So as an adult, it's still gonna be a gradual manipulation process of deconstructing truths and feeding you lies that taste good. Maybe like they're sugar coated, right? And it's God's love and it's what's happiness, and everybody's doing it, and you're weird if you don't. Maybe we'll be mad at you and excommunicate you if you don't, right? Whatever, the big bad consequences. Respectfully, I have very little. Um, how do I say this? I have very little empathy for the adults who decided to join and then decided to stay, and then decided to have children and teach those children that red is blue. Okay. I don't have a lot of empathy for those adults. I don't. Now, in this cult I was born and raised in, those are called first generation, meaning you knew blue was blue, you joined this cult, now you're teaching everyone red is blue. Okay. But specifically children who have never seen the outside world or at least not have access to it, right? Okay. So for an adult to one day be like, hmm, something's not right here, and deconstruct that and be like, I know blue is blue, I've seen it my whole life. But if I go back out there, they might think I'm weird and crazy, my friends won't like me anymore. Like, there's a lot of, I know I'm being a little facetious here, okay, but there's a lot of, you know, like that in the last episode, I was like, your mind can be your cage. Now, again, if you're an adult who should know better, that's a different cage for sure, because you have the context of having been outside the cage and you know the outside world is there. Okay. The other analogy I use to oversimplify this, it's like being born and raised on Mars, and you're told the earth is a flaming ball of fire. And if you go there, you will surely die immediately, in fact. And all, you know, lots of other bad things. Okay. Then the adults who were born and raised on Earth and traveled to planet Mars and decided to tell everyone Earth is a flaming ball of fire, right? They know it's not. They know better. So it might still be very scary for them to make that journey back to Earth, but they've been there before. They know they ain't burning, you know what I mean? Anyway, for a child to have the strength to deconstruct truth in an environment where you do not have access to truth. Not only the strength to ask questions and then defend the truth, but then to be so uh dedicated to truth that you are willing to do something as uncomfortable as journey to a potentially flaming ball of fire because you know there's more freedom there or at least more truth than what you're being fed on this planet. Okay. So that journey for a child, again, with zero support, zero context of the outside world, didn't really exist on paper, had never been to a school, had never had medical care, didn't know what credit hit credit was or filing taxes. Like, please realize we are somewhat like aliens landing on this planet Earth. And the first thing that happens when you land is you don't burn up, and you're like, oh my God, I didn't burn up, right? That takes you a few days to process because you're like, okay, now I need to make a plan. Certainly don't have a plan. You just know you didn't burn up in a ball of flyer, and that's kind of enough for now. Okay. So then we journey on into this earth, and you know, every anyway, you just try to hide the fact that you're not from this planet and assimilate as if you are. So again, I'm I'm I'm really being a lot of sarcastic humor to this very real, you know, process of survival. Um, and like I said, you know, there's um, I've got a real dark humor, so I can laugh about a lot of things that would make most people cry. That's just my chosen form of healing. That being said, there's so many different situations where people at a very young age escaped this cult in like random places in Russia and, you know, middle of nowhere and places in Africa, like all over the world, mostly American children, right? Don't exist on paper, don't have any type of support, and net negative support from your family, in fact. Then you have all this, you know, religious, uh, let's call it trauma, okay? But then also all the other, all the other forms of abuse. Okay. You're, you're, you're dealing with that, and you're also trying to navigate this new planet Earth. Okay. There's a lot to go through there. So, you know, again, everyone's healing journey is very different, but the number one need is physical safety. Like normally when you land on planet Earth, you're like, oh my God, okay, first of all, I didn't burn in a ball of fire. That's great. But now, you know what I mean? Where where do you go? So one of the many rhetorical questions I ask people is like, where would a survivor of child trafficking go? We're not even talking about like eight-year-old me in Brazil, because like I would not be safer on those streets. We're talking about like in the USA. So I was 10, there were four years of my life in my childhood when I lived in the USA from 10 to 14 years old. And I can talk more about that story because there's a lot to learn there. But just realize, where would I have gone? Right? If my parents are the bad people, if that's my environment, there's not really a safe place to land. So the deep the deprogramming process, like most let's let's just say it directly, I would have escaped much sooner if I had had a physical place to go. If I had had a place, I don't even talk about like trauma informed soft place to land. I'm saying, like, if I physically had a place to go, right? If I had relatives that offered help or some kind of, you know, a safe house, I don't know, I would have absolutely left sooner. Okay. So that's a huge part of it. Then there's the mental aspect of what anyone would go through when they're, you know, dealing with all that, right? Deconstructing and reconstructing truth and what even is that is that is. And then in the meantime, I'm paying bills and how does that work, right? So lots of hitting the ground running all at once. Um, okay, but the question is how would someone know they're brainwashed? And then I guess how can you help them? Well, again, that that really long-winded answer, right? It really depends on the situation and if you knew blue is blue or if you're never seen blue before, right? Or if you're still of the opinion that, like, I don't know, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna say something random, right? God hates blue. I can't, that's dangerous. You know what I mean? If you're afraid of blue, if you're told blue is evil or something, there's some kind of, oh, there's a reason blue is evil. Like, there's so many different layers to unpack here. So, you know, if I'm talking to an adult who decided to do something kooky with their life, you just need to get back to truth. And I'm not trying to undermine anything, but I'm just gonna speed that up for you. Like, you just need to get back to truth, and there's a whole other dirty for you there. Thoughts and prayers. Okay, for the kids. Um, or like in this case, you know, for the second and third generation cult members. That literally means babies having babies. Yes. So for us, right, the process of healing or let's talk about the process of escaping, right? That's more of like a process of questioning things and then finding the strength to go, you know, make that jump, that leap of faith to what might be a burning ball of flames and what's definitely going to cost you, you know, whatever type of family you had, or you know, you're gonna lose everything you knew. Basically, you're gonna start from square one. That's that's difficult no matter where you're coming from, right? Or what you're attached to or not, right? Then there's how do I survive? Like what happens next? What's the plan? And if, you know, a lot of people, unfortunately, a lot of survivors are re-traumatized, re-victimized because there's no physical safe place. So they end up with like anyone who will offer them help. And a lot of times those people can prey on vulnerabilities or take advantage of people that are like lost and searching and don't know what healthy is or real relationships or healthy boundaries and things like that. So the process is individual. It depends on the person's, you know, healing journey and their situation and what kind of resources they have access to. Uh now I do want to help people understand that no matter what your healing process involves, it must involve patience. That's both for the survivor as well as anyone trying to help their survivor or at least have realistic expectations as to what they might expect, right? The answer is it depends. And you and I don't we don't get to tell someone how to heal or like that they should be over it by now or whatever. It's no matter if you and I have been through something worse or don't exp understand what they've been through, like not a trauma competition. First one number one, right? Your 10 is my 10. It doesn't matter that I've been through things you couldn't imagine or that you've been through things I've never like your 10 is my 10. It's not a competition, it's about being honest with yourself. Okay. I'm gonna speed up this. This this is really more about the healing process, but it's also part of like being real about I guess deconstructing, you know, if you're brainwashed or something like that. Like, let's lay out some some real basic rules here. Truth doesn't mind being questioned. Anything that does not want you to ask questions, you should question. Let's keep that as a rule of thumb. You should especially question the things that are not asking you to question. Rule of thumb. Okay. Now that applies to so much here. You'll you'll know that I oversimplify things for the sake of clarity. In most controlled environments, if not all, right? Whether it's a cult or a political affiliation or religion, if questions are not welcomed, or if questions are answered in a very nonspecific, rather, you know, get out of here type response, that could be a red flag, right? Now, again, I look for patterns. There's never just like one thing and that's it. No, there's there's layers to this. Okay. So let's let's let's go back to the 10 rules of every cult, because I framed that a little bit. And I I want to read what I wrote late one night. This just came out and it's really good. This applies not only to, I think, every cult. Just realize most cults don't want to call themselves a cult anyway. It also applies to a lot of political structures and other realms of society that you might recognize today. So I want people to listen to these patterns so that they understand these problems. Number one, they must not know. Every cult has layers. The outer public layer is a lot like a corbett brochure. So you see happy smiling people and we love Jesus and yay, everything. And on the inside, there's a lot more to that story. But the public might think they're happy smiling people, religious freedom, and yay, God, so everything's fine. A lot of bad guys exploit that front of doing good to get away with doing bad things. I'm gonna keep moving, but you can unpack every one of these rules of every cult. Number two, it is written. Take it by faith. Full stop. Most answers to your questions are something like that. Number three, we are the only ones who are right. We're God's chosen, we're the special ones. He told us this special thing. The other world, the rest of the world doesn't understand, but we're right. These weird things we're calling God's love. Oh, we're right. We're just everyone else isn't ready for that. We're just special chosen, whatever. Number four. We make our own rules. The cult I was raised in literally perpetuated whatever is done in love is love. Abusing children was God's love. That was a full, full unbelief. Number five, this is what's best. This is God's highest will. This is what God wants. God created pleasure. Like pick a reason. They can justify it. This is what's best. Number six, recruit. Full stop. Number seven, you must earn your place. Participation is not optional. Friendly reminder, especially for the elected officials or anyone who's in any position of power, you earn your place. When they play stupid, let's not play stupid enough to pretend like they aren't there for a reason, like they don't know what's going on, like they just got promoted, but they're completely blind to what the organization is really doing. Let's not play that dumb. Okay. Number eight, support. By whatever means necessary, for most of them, financial contributions are a priority. And those who give the most money have the most freedom or power within the cult. Said more directly, if you give a lot of money, they will bend the rules for you. If you have a lot of money, you will be treated differently. The rules are for them, but not for us, especially the leaders or those with a lot of money. You can buy your way into anywhere. Number nine, dedication. Do whatever it takes. Forsaking family and friends, making incredible sacrifices, enduring endless pain and discomfort. God bless you. It's what God wants. Number 10, if you're not for us, you are against us. Now you guys tell me where else you've seen those patterns, what other realms of society that might apply to. But then we're going to go back to just keeping this focused on cults, right? If you're going to a church and you have the option to go or not go, and you have the option to go home and live your life as you choose, and you can raise your children as you want, you have your independent finances and do with your finances what you want. Okay, maybe that church could be a little kooky, right? Maybe their religion has some weird history that we should be concerned with. But my point is that's not necessarily a cult, right? For people that are like, all religions are cults, all churches are cults. Bless your heart, you don't understand cults. Because I'm not saying I agree with all the things everybody does. I'm saying a cult has a very different level of control. Participation is not optional. You don't get to think and ask questions and go home and raise your kids the way you want and do what you want with your finances. No, no, no. I'm not saying a church cannot be culty or cult-like or certain beliefs are culty or cultic. Sure. Not the same thing as a cult. Is there overlap? Yes, but it is not the same body of water. Again, we have to understand these problems and be willing to truly understand and face the truth, not manipulate the truth the way we want it to be. Okay. So starting with, because your question is, you know, how can someone tell if they're brainwashed? Well, if you're in a highly controlled environment or group and you're not encouraged to think for yourself, in fact, it's highly discouraged, you should definitely ask questions. And if you're told to kind of simmer down and not ask more questions, you should definitely ask more questions. And if you don't get honest, straightforward answers, you should consider relocating at the very least, right? Maybe just not being controlled by them at the very least would be a good idea. Right. So again, we're talking about grown adults who can choose to not go back if that's your situation, right? Don't subscribe, don't sign up, don't donate, don't, don't, don't enmesh yourself. Pull out. Okay. With a child, they don't have that luxury. Whether it's your parent forcing you, taking you to this service, like you don't sign up, you don't, you don't consent, you don't you're not able to opt out when you're a child. Now again, that's to varying degrees, right? I'm not here to diminish anyone's experience, but I've talked to a lot of people that are like, ah, religious trauma. I'm like, okay, what happened? Yeah, my parents were super religious. Okay, what happened? Yeah, we had to go to church every Sunday, and it was, you know, religious trauma. And I'm like, okay, you know, there there's levels to this, but like not the same thing as a cult, right? I'm not here to compete with anybody's trauma, but you know, going to church and listening to religious things, right? Are they controlling their your life? Are they abusing you? Like, there's levels to this. So again, I'm not here to compete or discredit anybody's experience. I am here to correct the premise so that we understand these problems, right? Once we understand these problems and what we're dealing with and who and what, you know, are they a minor or they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then we could give more specific information with like how would you deprogram yourself, right? So again, for children who have escaped, survived, been rescued from cults or controlled group environments, like cults, you know, trafficking, et cetera. Like it's not necessarily a cult, but you're in a very controlled environment if you're in that situation. The deprogramming, the healing is gonna be very, very different. Now, once again, your context is red as blue. I'm obviously oversimplifying a lot of, you know, very abusive things here. The mind is a very powerful thing. It depends a lot on that person and the resources they have access to. If we had better resources to better help spot the victims, help the victims, and then assist the victims in their healing journey, we'd see a lot less hurt people, hurting people. Because healed people also healed people.

Voices for Voices, Justin Alan Hayes:

That's so true. Um when so this is more, I guess, a big picture question. Uh when uh I'm trying to think of like the best way to ask it. So you're having an impact on so many people on a such positive level from the rants to uh what you've been through through coming on shows and sharing. When did it really when did it really stick that you're having a very positive influence on kind of the masses that you're your messaging and it's not really a hundred percent you're bringing your experience and your learned and lived experience, and you're also uh doing things a lot of out-of-the-box things, so I'm I'm I'm sure you may have got like, well, why is she doing that? Like, couldn't she just do that eight to five or that nine to five? Uh so I guess kind of how how did you or have you come to that point of realizing the work that you're doing? I mean, it does matter, and it matters to a whole lot of people, not just here in the United States, but literally across the across the world. That's that's it's a question I like to ask leaders be because it it's it's just interesting to get the perspective that and from what I gather, it's not about you, it's about helping others. And maybe that's part of the answer, but I'm gonna I want to let you uh you know share you know your insight and into that.

Kim Kelley:

For sure. I I appreciate the question, and it's also kind of not humbling, but you know, I don't think any of us see ourselves like I'm helping so many people, so I'm gonna pat myself on the back, you know. I know that's not what you asked, but it's just um, you know, I saw problems and it pissed me off. And I was unwilling to well, let me put it like this. I I looked into it, I researched it, I delved in in terms of like, what is this? Okay, for further context, like I was never rescued. I don't have children of my own. I'm not out here fighting for me. I was doing really good in life. I was successfully running businesses and like move, you know, I was happy and doing well. Like this wasn't coming from a place of like searching for answers and purpose in life at all. I was not, I have not been bored in many years. Like I did not need more to do. Okay. That being said, when I uh when this mission came to me is really what happened, right? And I was just like, what the hell? Like it was this, I don't know if I can cuss on your show. Sorry. This oh no, you're gonna I get real Torezzi around this, but not anyway talking about this, but like hell no. It was a hell no from me that this is allowed to thrive in our country. So, you know, part of it is like for sure, there's some inner child in there that's still pissed off. And I think that anger is serving me. Like, I have this saying now, I think if you're pissed off, you're meant to fight back, you know, because everyone heals differently, and that's it's just not a requirement to heal. I'm I'm sorry, it's not a requirement to fight back. No survivor uh owes anybody advocacy, okay? Like, whole other subject, but like to each their own. There's no wrong way to heal. The goal is to heal. Okay. For me and for other people who are pissed off, who are who who are have a fire under them, who are annoyed with all the inefficiencies and all the broken systems. I think we're meant to fight back. I think that's a very healthy way to channel your energy. But again, not to rage, not to complaining. I never wanted to be one of those people, and I was never one of those people that was like angry and bitter inside. Like I had moved so far past all of that, right? I didn't have questions, I wasn't searching, I had made peace with the fact that I don't have parents. Like, we, we good. Okay. Don't, it's, it's not normal. It's we're fine. It's just that at the time, right, there was a lot of um, I was definitely angry once I understood how bad the problem was and the fact that no one was no one. Like the people who should be solving this problem are not solving this problem. I could see it so clearly, and it was like, fuck this, right? Then there was also getting involved, like speaking to other survivors. So again, initially, like this has never been about me, not even my story, right? It's just that like I I still had shame around my past, and it was still something people didn't know about me, and I never admitted it, right? I've always been a very behind-the-scenes person professionally. Like, I really like setting the stage for clients to perform on. That's kind of, you know, I have a background in professional in online marketing and all these things. So like I like setting the stage for others, and I was never, it was actually very triggering for me to be on camera. Okay. This was a couple years ago. Um, I'm 30 years old, no, 31 by now. The short version is that I started working with a nonprofit, and I saw, again, I had it, I I was, I had not been around a lot of Christians or around a lot of, you know, advocacy types, because that just wasn't my realm. Going into those realms, I saw a lot of people who didn't know what they're talking about that are not helping. And we're not even at the time, I didn't realize how much corruption was there yet. I just saw people like, um, I saw how needed subject matter experts were and survivor voices were. And I didn't want to. I really didn't want to be public about it. It wasn't about me. I didn't, I like, you know, eating brunch in my my flip-flops and yoga pants. I don't want to be public. Anyway, it took me a couple years of just, you know, trying to get everyone to do their job and giving everyone the talking points and like trying to make them care and do it to just realize how needed it was. Um, I also will always give credit to my friend Tyler Stoot, who worked with me in the same organization for years, and he was a big part of my muse, or I I I jokingly say he bullied me into being on camera. And I have him to thank for that because I definitely don't think I would have. But that being said, like he helped me understand how needed it was and kind of helped me get beyond myself. And no one knew really, I kind of told him, but no one really knew like how it was actually really difficult for me to be on camera until I decided to just, you know what I mean? It wasn't about me. It wasn't about me like anyway, it it was so much bigger than me for one that it just kind of pushed me forward. Um, when I went out there, you know, it was I interacted with a lot of survivors and a lot of people who are not being helped, who even went to therapy and were never told it wasn't their fault, that were still carrying shame. Adults who had been trafficked in their childhood were still carrying shame about, like, oh, I was a bad kid and it was a bad and it was my fault. And I was like, so so I started, you know, getting more hands-on, and I'm a very hands-on person. Like, I really get in and just understanding all these different layers and the people that are just really running their mouth and saying ridiculous things that I really was like, what are you saying to people? And you know, oh, I think that, you know, we should put a message out there that God can forgive anyone and that, you know, these people should just ask for forgiveness and then they'll be fine. And I'm like, all these things. You can't heal unless you have Jesus. You can't heal. I'm like, all these things, okay? And like to real quick to well-meaning people that are listening and are like very, you know, let me let me just unpack something. If something helped you, that doesn't mean it's going to help everybody. Crazy concept, I know. But because a lot of people that have let's let's let's take a very specific example and I will apply this to myself, okay, even though like I'm not the one in question here. But okay, if we rescue a kid from a religious cult and we look for a safe house, and because most safe houses have a religious undertone, which is fine, however, if they have a requirement like every morning they need to wake up and sing about Jesus, and this kid was just recent recently rescued from a very traumatic cult-like or religious traumatic experience involving trafficking, not very helpful for this kid to wake up and sing about Jesus right now. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying it's not helpful for their healing journey right now. Okay. And if you're going to require this person to do something that is not helpful for their healing journey right now, you don't truly care about healing. You're trying to check a box because to you, it's more important that this person follows your rules than that they find peace so that they can begin their healing journey, right? If we rush them from zero to a hundred, they're probably not going to find a lot of peace. It's going to create a lot more struggle, even possible hurt and re-traumatization to force them to struggle through something that is not that helpful right now. Okay. So this, which to you and I might represent peace, love, and happiness to this individual could be re-traumatizing. Okay. So many safe houses, survivor centers, aftercare programs, et cetera, nonprofits that work with survivors, they have a lot of bias in what they think has to happen for somebody to heal. And I'm not saying what they're doing is bad or even harmful for everyone. I am saying that it's if they have bias, they're not trauma-informed. So for that safe house, okay, I could send the kids who were not related to religious traumatic type situations, but I can't send kids who experience religious trauma. Do you understand these patterns that apply to society? Now, just imagine on a bigger scale, if we have people like that making the policies and rules and training, we ain't solving problems. We check in boxes, right? And that type of bias, even if it's with the best possible intentions and the most ignorant belief that this is the only way everybody could heal, right? That's not really helping on a bigger picture. So I do well, you know, it's it's interesting working with different survivors and like I have so much that's intuitive to me that I understand. But then with every person or situation that I interact with, there's always, you know, you you learn so much. Nobody ever has all the answers, nobody ever has seen it all. You know what I mean? There's so much to learn. So all that to say, we need to have trauma-informed understanding of the problem, survivor-led understanding of the problem. I'm not saying you can't help if you haven't lived it. I'm saying if you're not consulting the people who lived it, you probably don't know what you're talking about. It's like someone trying to help veterans that's never served in war or that's never been a military family or that doesn't understand the military. Like you're probably not going to be that helpful, right? You might not understand their dark humor and what's helpful for them. That's okay. But let someone who understands it help them or at least hire someone who understands them. You know what I mean? So again, we're applying this to the nonprofit world, to the policy legislative world, et cetera. The better the systems are, the better we can actually solve problems. So I guess that the shortest answer to your question, um, I realized individual healing wasn't enough if the systems stayed broken and uninformed. I realized not enough people understand the problems, much less the solutions. I realize there's so much corruption and people are getting away with it because people are afraid to speak up and there's corruption that protects the corruption, but also people don't understand the problems much less the solution. So people are able to get away with these band-aids. So prevention requires infrastructure, right? Not just awareness. And awareness to be effective also requires action. Otherwise, we're just throwing thoughts and prayers, but we're not actually willing to take action.

Voices for Voices, Justin Alan Hayes:

Oh, that's um it's incredible. I like your uh your analogies and and and stories about one safe house and one environment might be good for a certain individual or individuals, whereas it might not be at this very time for another, and the we shouldn't be just checking boxes and say, hey, we saved, we rescued this many. Because some are going back to the the very parents and the very same people that they were experiencing uh the mistreatment, and some are going to kind of the wrong the wrong match of oh I'm gonna be re-traumatized if I go into this this particular setting. I guess I I so where do you get all your energy from? I know I know I know it's very passionate work, but I get asked that a lot too, and I don't drink coffee, and but I'm it's like zero to like a hundred, and I'm just curious where you where you get the the energy and the in the and the passion uh for an individual who may want to follow in your footsteps to some degree this the some level so how is she doing? How is Kim doing all these things and have all all these processes? And uh how how can somebody do that without having to you know drink like seven cups of coffee or I don't even know. I don't drink coffee.

Kim Kelley:

I don't drink seven cups of coffee.

Voices for Voices, Justin Alan Hayes:

I mean it might I mean then there's nothing wrong with it, I guess.

Kim Kelley:

I yeah, I I I'll anyway, I like coffee a lot. That's my answer. But okay, on this note, okay, let's let's be real. I don't have kids, so there's you know, lots of bandwidth there. Um okay. What I ha the way I would summarize this, one, like I've always been You could call it ADHD, you could call it a high performer, you could call it highly motivated person. Um, my point is just like I've I've always been like, even, you know, even going through hard things, my you could say trauma response is to kind of numb by doing. So we're directing that in a healthy way, but I'm just saying, like, I'm, you know, my personality, my wiring is for one, like sets me up for this for sure, since I was very young. And anyway, then, but now there's also, you know, there's the look, healing is a choice. Okay. This is gonna be a pretty direct statement. And I think I'm allowed to say this, right? We're the only one who can decide to heal. Now, the reason that's a powerful statement is because not only does that remove the onus from everybody else, to me, that's empowering because we don't need anybody else to apologize or say the right thing or change or some magic wand to do something, right? We're the ones that can decide to heal. We're the only ones that can make that choice. Healing is also a process. It's not linear. There's not a start and an end, and then we're done, right? It's uh, it can be a lot of things. It can be a lifelong process, but it doesn't and it doesn't have to mean suffering. Uh it can definitely mean, you know, processing pain, especially at the beginning. It means being honest with yourself. It means being willing to not only make the choice to heal, but to go into those difficult places and dig out old things and reconstruct. Like it's not an easy process. So again, patience is a requirement here in not only healing, but you know, giving yourself that space and realizing, especially like I'm one of those, like I'd like to get this over with as soon as possible, which helped in my healing journey. But it also like I didn't want to take as much time as I did. And that's in hindsight, like, oh yeah, no, I wasn't ready when I was like, okay, let's just get this over with. Like, no, it's gonna take a process. Okay. Then there's also boundaries. Okay. What I mean by that is generally, especially if you were raised like that or if you experienced that for many years of your life, you know, a lot of times I can go through a whole other realm of what it does psychologically and, you know, all the different, there's a lot of different symptoms, of course, but we're just gonna focus on it, it chips away at your self-worth. Anytime you're in this very controlled environment where someone or people have control over you and are essentially directing your life, right? You don't obviously have autonomy, a lot of independence, but it also chips away at your self-worth. So part of that is, you know, we say things like reclaiming your power and taking your power back. What that means is really, again, with that healing journey, is not allowing yourself to settle or be led by other people or fall for tactics, right? It's learning. And unfortunately, a lot of times we learn the hard way when we think someone's a good person and they're just another manipulative scumbag, right? Like, unfortunately, that's that's real life. But it's connecting with your intuition and really gaining the trust in yourself that you either never had or that was taken from you. I'm gonna try to summarize this because I have a lot to say about the healing process. Okay. I reject the notion that anybody was, we're talking about childhood trauma, right? That you're broken, right? I really don't like that. And it's less about the word and more about like, I reject the notion that people are broken because we were as children, right? A bad guy chose to do a bad thing to a child. That is the most weak, pathetic, cowardly thing you can do, right? So I'm I'm reframing, I'm gonna summarize a lot of things that I say to survivors. Okay, a lot of people are like, I'm so sorry that happened to you, and they treat like an exotic bird now, or they're like, Well, you should just forgive and forget, and you're so strong. So, yeah, let's just move on. Like, they're just kind of awkward about knowing how to process that or just say nothing. What I do instead is of course I listen and you know, there's a whole other rapport thing that's happening here, but also instead of the narrative of like, I they broke me, I'm sad, I'm a victim, they hurt me. It's all like very external, like, oh, they did big, bad thing, and I'm now very broken. Nah, man, fuck that. That weak pathetic coward tried to hurt you when you were a child. You were an innocent little child. That weak pathetic coward tried to overpower you, but you survived that, man. You're a badass. You know how many people don't survive that? I'm so proud of you for choosing to overcome. I just validated that that happened. Now I'm gonna validate that never should have happened. A bad guy tried to do a bad thing, or a bad guy did a bad thing. You overcame that. You're a badass. That was not your fault. That should never have happened. But I just want you to know that bad guy's a weak, pathetic coward. You're the strong ass, badass because you chose to overcome that and you're here. Okay. Bad thing happened, bad thing bad. I am validating. I'm not saying, yeah, but you're fine. I'm saying bad thing bad. You're a badass. He's a coward, he, she, it, whatever, right? I'm no longer like big scary bad guy that has all this power over me. I'm like weak pathetic coward. Okay, now you're here. Meaning happened, not okay, but happened, can't change that past. Weak pathetic coward, now you're here. What do you want to do next? You get to choose. You don't need an apology, like no, we don't need to revisit that, in fact. Okay. Lots more psychological processes here, but like we're not here to make it pretty. I really don't like very negative thing. When people try to make it pretty, yeah, but God had a plan, yeah, but you're so strong. Okay, bad thing happened, bad thing bad. Let's validate that. A lot of survivors don't get the validation, they're called crazy. A lot of the turmoil and the shame and the PTSD is because they don't get validation that bad thing bad. Now I realize a lot of times it's a family member or friend and everyone's trying to make excuses. Bad thing bad, not okay. Weak pathetic coward, not okay. Not not nope, nope, nope, weak pathetic coward, leave it. You overcame. You're a badass. Now what do you want to do about it? Do you want to never think about it again? Do you want to move on and find peace and happiness? Do you want to fight back? You know what I mean? It reframes the whole conversation because now we don't need an external thing to change or we don't need them for one. And for two, we get to control our bandwidth now. So, like this is your bandwidth. How much time do you want to keep giving them? How much blame, you know what I mean? So another another thing I'm paralleling here is that a lot of people, well-meaning people, we would hope, really push the narrative of forgiveness onto survivors. This typically comes from a religious perspective of you have to forgive, otherwise, God is not gonna forgive you. And to the religious people pushing that narrative, because let's be realist, the religious people pushing that narrative, let me just remind you about what Jesus said in the Bible. And for context, and yes, I'm gonna get real soapboxy here, I was born and raised in a religious cult. Fun fact, I can quote the Bible to you, I can sing the Bible to you in three languages. Okay, so all the people that are like, you just need to read your Bible to heal. Which version of the Bible in which language would you like me to sing it? Okay. That being said, the irony is I've never met a Christian who knows the Bible better than me. And I am not a Christian, however, I was raised on a lot of weird things, but also the Bible. Okay. Anyway, in the New Testament, there were three times. Actually, let's start here. There were two times where Jesus got really gangster. It was the one time he ever went to church as an adult. And he flipped tables and kicked whip whipped people. That was pretty cool. The second time was when he told people it would be better for you to put a millstone around your neck and drown in the bottom of the sea than for you to offend a child. Now, fun fact that reference, that verse, the millstone around the neck, drowning in the sea because of child, three times in the New Testament in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. So Jesus meant it, right? Let's be real. He was really clear about that. Unlike a lot of things that Christians fixate on, he was really clear about that. He was not clear about going to church on Sunday and a lot of other things that Christians fixate on, but he was really clear about don't let me catch you offending a child. I find that very significant because the word offend is so broad. He didn't say like violate or defile or something worse. He literally said offend a child. And the millstone around the neck thing is like a 2,000-pound stone. You can't scientifically put that on somebody's neck, right? So it's more like a creative threat. And Jesus didn't typically do that. He was all peace and love, except when it came to protecting children. He was like, anyway, I don't want to get too flowerly here, but like I feel like it was a very creative threat. And Jesus didn't typically do that. So all that to say, okay, you would think Christians would be very focused on that. Now it's ironic that there's a lot of Christians so willing to spend lots of time debating that concept and try to pretend like Jesus was not talking about children. They should read Matthew 18 when he was definitely talking about children, but anyway, they're like, no, he's talking about the church, his little ones. Anyway, all that to say, we should be very hyper-focused on protecting children and not allowing systems or religious concepts or anything else to discount how bold we should be, regardless of what you believe. Because once again, the Bible is, you know, I'm not a Christian. I'm just using the logic of Christians to support the premise of protecting children, which we should just use logic. But anyway, so the fighting back thing. Okay, once again, I understood, like I saw all these, you know, people with religious bias, people that are just here to collect money and performative activism and all of that. It can be very exhausting to try to work through all that. Okay. Now, again, I'm wired for this in a way that most people aren't. I have no problem debating those people or having those discussions, right? With survivors, though, it can be very traumatizing to again not get that validation, be told you're crazy your whole life, be told you just move on and forgive the person. And it's like 100% of the people talking about forgiveness right away, like right off the bat, that's just where they go first. They're never talking about how we're supporting the survivor or like what we've done to make sure that they're okay, or like, are we sure this person's in prison? Can because he can find redemption and forgiveness there. That's no, no, no, we're like, no, no, no, forgiveness. So then back in the fold, right? Okay, I've seen that happen too many times. And let's not pretend like it's not as severely re-traumatizing for the survivor, right? Again, especially if it's a friend or family member, especially if it's someone in the church, like I've seen this protection of the predator and this complete disregard for the survivor or this force-fed like thoughts and prayers and forgiveness, where we're not really helping people, we are checking boxes. So, all that to say, for survivors or for anyone wanting to get in to help, what I would urge you is number one, choose to heal first. We cannot pour from an empty cup, but you will also end up getting thrown for all kinds of loops you can't imagine if you're not standing on solid ground. And that means you personally, beyond faith and whatever else you're standing on, like you personally need to be standing on solid ground before you can truly help other people. Healed people heal people. The reason they say hurt people, hurt people, if you're not choosing to heal, you may keep bleeding on others. You may be re-traumatized. Like it might not only render you less useful or useless, even, it could break you down because you're not ready for that. You could bleed on others in a way that hurts other people. Like it's a vicious cycle for a reason. So all that to say, healed people are in a much better place to start helping other people, right? So number one, choose to heal. And that's a process. And I'm not here to try to make it sound quick and easy because it's definitely not. It's a choice, though. Number two would be boundaries. So whether it's not talking to everyone about everything, oversharing, whether it's not getting involved with everyone or saying yes to everyone and everything, letting everyone and everything give opinions about how you should do or heal or help or, you know, the way it needs to be done, it can be exhausting and waste a lot of time. If you are, if you don't have boundaries in place that can help you, first of all, discern who's really, you know, worth working with and who's in who's worth pouring into. I I that might sound a little callous, but I think you know what I mean. When we have the urge to help people and when we're not fully healed, a lot of times we have this like broken heart for everybody. And a lot of people can kind of take up that bandwidth that aren't really here to help or choose healing. They just need support, right? So, all that to say, like, there's a lot of needs in this world, man. And it's actually, you know, what's actually ironic is that like I do a lot of public speaking and talking in the internet and stuff. And again, this is not about me, right? But it's it's for some reason, strangers on the internet will see a survivor, again, shouldn't have to be me here, but here it is, who's combating child trafficking. It's kind of a big undertaking, you know what I mean? Lots going on here. And they're like, oh my God, can you also like my ex-husband left with my children and like can you also help me with this thing? And it's like, I don't know why you think I need more to do, you know. I want to help everybody, but like I don't have the bandwidth. I'm not a large organization. Or the or my favorite is like, you should go to Washington and arrest Hillary Clinton or Trump or you know, whoever. And I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm on it. Are you offering to fund this mission or you're just here with ideas? Because my point is is truly like you have to be aware of your bandwidth. None of us are superhuman, but also like a lot of well-meaning people, as well as ill-intentioned people, will definitely try, you know, to take advantage or just ask for help in a way that can drain you, right? So staying mission-focused is critical. So, because again, there's so many worthy causes. Like I could get distracted before I even forget, before I even begin, if I'm letting myself get tangled up in everybody's everything or every good cause that needs help, right? Stay focused. And again, you can't really do that effectively if you're not healed and grounded, etc., right? Boundaries is a big conversation, but it's difficult for survivors to gain that. So, like, let's not even try to go beyond ourselves if we don't have the inside of our house really, you know, you know, set up right. So, anyway, part of that is, you know, knowing when to rest and when to act, and then just kind of staying grounded on, again, once you're healed, like this work is not about you, me, anybody, right? It's about like the focus becomes clearer when you don't have all this internal stuff to deal with in the meantime, right? Then you can stay focused on the mission, the children, what we're doing here. Um, all that to say, people, you know, you'll see in the nonprofit world there's a lot of ways to waste your time. And there's a lot of well-meaning people spending a lot of time talking or having meetings or, you know, committees and things that can drain a lot of your time and resources. I have this term that I use for myself, um, sarcastically called cute puppy. And what that means is every politician and religious leader and public figure, et cetera, et cetera, right, really like having a cute puppy. And you're like, oh, survivor, sad face, good cause, please donate. You know what I mean? It's especially for survivors. A lot of organizations, politicians, and situations exploit survivors, whether or not they're meaning to, they do. Whether or not they're just asking you to tell a sad story for their views or for their service or for whatever it is, right? A lot of people don't realize the kind of impact that has. And if the person is not healed, that can be very difficult. So, like again, there's no finish line to healing, right? But like, if these interviews, if speaking publicly, if the work I did made me break down, if I needed to go like, you know, cry it out after every interview, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. That might be the way someone processes and that's okay for them. What I'm saying is if it didn't light me up, if I felt like I needed to like after everything like this that I do, that's probably not a very healthy thing for me, at least not right now, right? Sometimes I'm like dealing with so much that like I'm not gonna, you know, I'll lay off, you know, TikTok videos or whatever it is, because like I'm just not in the right headspace. So that's part of boundaries, right? It's knowing when to press the gas and when to press the brakes and what how to take care of yourself.

Voices for Voices, Justin Alan Hayes:

Excellent. Thank you so much for the clarity in in detail. Uh we're at the end of our time for our second show, unfortunately. Um we'll have future shows sometime in the future when uh we we both have time. Um but if if you could just do a uh uh just a PR run of how people can learn more about you, the ranch, the work you do, uh get involved if that's something they want, uh and just how how they can just learn.

Kim Kelley:

I appreciate that. So my website, which has tons of free information and resources and tools on how to protect children, specifically in the digital world where most children spend most of their time, digitaldefendersunited.org. Tons of free information and resources, checklist style information to help protect kids in a modern day. And I'm asking everyone to implement at least one of those tips today. I promise you they're very accessible, practical information. Our social media links are there. You can follow us on Instagram and YouTube and TikTok and all the things. And of course, you can reach out to us if you have questions, if you want to help. There are many different ways to help. We're not a fundraising organization, but if you do need your law enforcement department trained, if you want to fund law enforcement training, if you want to understand more about law enforcement training, if you want to set up a sting operation in your community, if you're local politician, like let's get creative and solve some problems together. So please reach out to us and hopefully I or someone on our team will get back to you right away.

Voices for Voices, Justin Alan Hayes:

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Ken, for sticking around two episodes, a couple hours of your your time. Uh, we are very much grateful for that. And uh, we're gonna be turning around these episodes here in the next couple days. Obviously, tag you on uh in the rant on all of them, and just want to say thank you for being an action-oriented person. Um because that's I mean the world needs a lot of people, a lot of different types of people, but action-oriented is is one of one of those that it's not just talking to talk, um you're walking and the walk as well. Uh so we want to say thank you, and uh nothing but the best for for you, uh your organization, everything you get involved with, and for the safety of you and everybody as they go through the trainings and and they go and implement different operations and projects and in their communities. Very much appreciate you and what what you have and are and what you're gonna continue to do.

Kim Kelley:

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. And again, thank you for championing this message. You know, a lot of people, Paul, you know, a lot of platforms are afraid to talk about this message, as you and I know. So I always want to thank the hosts who are willing to have this message be featured and willing to unpack it and willing to see the truth for what it is, not just what we want it to be. Sometimes these conversations can be uncomfortable, sometimes they can make us kind of angry or whatever people are feeling. Again, I want to compel people to channel that energy into action and pick one thing they can do to be part of the solution. So again, Justin, thank you for all you do. Thank you for all the voices and the people that you're helping through this message.

Voices for Voices, Justin Alan Hayes:

Well, you're welcome. And we want to thank our viewers, our listeners. Without you, we wouldn't have a platform, we wouldn't have a reason to do a show, two shows like this with Cam and uh getting closer and closer to 400 total or not. stopping there uh and it's just uh it's incredible the the feedback that uh we we get and we do we we we cover some you know some pretty pretty tough topics as as we've talked about on on our two episodes and I think that from what I read off of your uh website you know you're you're being a voice for the voiceless you're you're coming you're that light that's coming out of the shadows and and and those symbolically to me make a uh make a lot of sense to everybody uh but definitely with our organization what we're trying to do is to give people a platform that they can share and talk and they can uh let people know what what's going on so that if uh and I used this on a previous show uh I was I was in the car the other day listening to the radio just flipping through the channels and the the let's say the old time song Monsters with uh Eminem and Rihanna was on and Eminem was talking in his rap about if he could help one one kid out of a hundred million I think then what he's doing would make it would it would justify what he's doing and and and so I I know we're helping more than one one kid one person one adult one individual one human being and that really just resonated with me is like yeah that's that's part of why what what we're doing we're here to help people and if there's one less kid that has to go through a tough situation and we want to want to help everybody uh but if we can at least you know start with one then uh I I think that we're on the the right right track and definitely feels good emotionally too well um we will see you on the next show and again if you haven't checked out our first episode uh with Kim you're gonna want to go to the previous number I think this is episode 386 387 so you want to go back to 380 86 because we just dropped 385 this morning so a lot of numbers to to keep track of uh so thank you to everybody thank you to Ken thank you uh for for joining us please share if you're able to uh follow give us a thumbs up all those things are free to do and help us uh further our our reach to try to make people aware and then turn that awareness into into action so until next time uh this is Justin of Voices for Voices uh let's celebrate the voices of everybody and please be a voice for you or somebody in need we'll see you next time thanks again you're welcome

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Justin Alan Hayes

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