Thomas Dekker Delves Deep Into Screenwriting

Our guest is Thomas Dekker, an actor, musician, director, and screenwriter. Known for portraying John Connor in "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles," Thomas can next be seen in the upcoming camp horror comedy "HALLOWEEN STORE." Thomas wrote and directed "JACK GOES HOME," featuring Rory Culkin, available to watch on Prime. In this episode, Thomas shares invaluable insights about his screenwriting journey that will benefit writers and all creatives who wake up each day to pursue their dreams.

Executive Producer Kristin Overn

Executive Producer Sandy Adomaitis

Producer Terry Sampson

Music by Ethan Stoller

Transcript

0:11

Hello, my name is Sandy Adamidis, the social media director for the Page International Screenwriting Awards and your host for the Writers Hangout, a podcast that celebrates the many From inspiration to the first draft, revising, getting the project made, and everything in between. We'll talk to the best and the brightest in the entertainment industry, and create a space where you can hang out, learn from the pros, and have fun. Hey, writers, it's Sandy. How are you all? Thanks for being here. I'm recording this intro late at night in Studio City, the jewel of the San Fernando Valley. Everything is quiet and the moon is waning. Boy do we have a terrific episode for you. Our guest is actor, musician, director, and screenwriter Thomas Decker. Thomas is known for his role as John Connor in Terminator, the Sarah Connor Chronicles, and we'll see him next in the upcoming camp Horror Comedy Halloween store, Thomas wrote and directed Jack Goes Home starring Rory Culkin, which is available on prime writers. You'll want to bookmark, save relationship this episode because Thomas leaves it all out on the field for you. Ready? Let's start the show. Thomas Decker, thank you so much for joining us on The Writer's Hangout. Thank you so much for having me. Thomas. The last time I saw you, you were a lanky young man. You were the lead on a network television show, Terminator, the Sarah Conna Chronicles. I never asked you this question when we were working together. How do you handle that pressure? Well, that, that job in particular, you know, listen of the many things I've been lucky enough to be a part of, I'm really proud of that show and I really respect that show and I knew it was good at the time. And, even though I was young and, and all over the place and I, I was always aware that I was on a really great show with a really great part. And so I just always focused on the work aspect of it and, sort of put my head in the sand in terms of the sudden recognizability and shift that came to my personal life as a result of it. But, honestly nothing but, but gratitude and fond memories when I reflect on that job. I was always just stunned by the work you did on that series. I mean, really, really, really good acting. That series was ahead of its time, don't you think? Very much so, yes. Yeah. And then we had the strike and then the seasons got all messed up and then the show was on a lot that it wasn't airing on and oh, it just got the money. Everything just got messed up and still breaks my heart to this day. Yes, And listen, I still daily get messages and letters and dms and things from people who love the show and miss the show. And it's insane to me that it's, I think it's the second season we were doing 16 years ago at this point, which really blows my mind. and there's new people who discover it regularly, and I do think that. Part of the reason that we dealt with a lot of struggle and a lot of, issues and difficulty and all that was because Josh and the writers and everyone, which is always felt like they were fighting to really make something superior and intelligent and challenging and special and respectful to its audience. And I think, for me at, 18 to 21 or whatever I was for the run of it that was a yet again, a formative, example. Oh my goodness. You know, Thomas, you were so young. Oh my goodness, when I think about that. Now, we're here to talk about your writing today. And I was just so excited to connect with you and, I had known that you had written the movie Horror, but your second movie got made, Jack Goes Home. Congratulations. You've gotten two movies made. whore, which has a very interesting premise. Would you tell the listeners what the premise is? Yes. So whore was actually being made, when we knew, when we were working together, and it was from the outset, it was very much a, an experiment. it was always an experimental thing and that definitely carried through into the conception and writing of it. But the premise is, it's a sort of abstract look at, young. Prostitutes in Los Angeles, most of whom sort of hopefuls wanting to be actors, be famous, break into whatever this whole thing kind of means, in culture. And, it was the end of the two thousands and the mania and madness surrounding celebrity and celebrity culture. Not that it's, you know, uh, improved necessarily, but it felt like it was at an all time fever pitch at that time. And I think looking back on it. I'd really been inspired by, things like harmony, Corinne's, Gummo that were very experimental and very tonally all over the place. And I think I kind of wanted to bring that from, instead of doing a kind of abstract middle American thing to, bring it here to Hollywood and rapid in all the obsessions and dreams that are found here. And so, There were general character arcs, but none of the actors really would receive the pages until the night before or the day of shooting. and we shot this thing for a year and a half, I think, on and off. And so much was written and shot that didn't end up being used. And I kind of knew that as I went. And the idea with the actors was just to, in a way kind of not give them the time, to really prep or to really delve into who they were playing or what was their backstory or how did they get here and instead just keep them really present. And every character that was written was sort of a version of themselves or an extension of themselves then being put into these scripted scenarios. So it was all very much about playing and figuring out as we went, which I knew having no real powers that be, or bosses or people to please, we could kind of do that. Mm-hmm. and that was a really thrilling process. And, you know, learned so much. It was very DIY it was very just get all my friends together. And fortunately at that time, I had access to so many brilliant, young, creative people in all areas of movie making. so yeah, that was a, a youthful experimental affair, I would say. Now, back in the two thousands, you didn't, did you, you didn't have an iPhone. You can't just pick up an iPhone. I mean, you really started, even though you're so young, you still started back when, social media and iPhones and access to, uh, equipment and I mean, at one time you had to go to film school to get your hands on a camera. Yeah. So you kind of are straddling both those worlds, which I think is a good thing. Yeah, I think, you know, listen, I look back on that time and it, it does feel like an entirely different universe and so much of the things that were so difficult or arduous or complex to mount and do at that time. Now, you know, there's an app on your phone that can do half of, what we were having to do with big programs and computers and, but Horror in particular was. Part of the experiment was to try and shoot on as many formats as possible. So we were shooting VHS Digital, eight millimeter, 16 millimeter, and at that time, digitizing everything and bringing it into, and I cut it myself, into final cut. And so it was a, again, a lot learned and a lot of experimentation. But it was a period where you're absolutely right, it was a very different thing. There weren't creators every, in, every corner, everywhere you looked. And there weren't sort of, there wasn't content being made in that way. So when I look back on that movie, it was the most beautiful thing about it that I could never recreate, which is maybe part of just getting older and maybe part of the world changing, is that it was really, was made for no purpose other than the love of making it. And to see what we could discover. And, of course, everything now has become so monetized and so what's the result? What's it gonna do for me? I look back on that as very fondly. It was a different time. Oh, that is so wonderful. Which leads us to, Jack Goes Home, by the way. Amazing cast Jack goes home. Thank you. Rory Kin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so did Natasha Leone, Nikki Reed, Britt Robertson. And, most of the cast, were people that I'd worked with and had either formed friendships with or good respectful working relationships with. And so, Britt Robertson, I kind of wrote the part for, but with Rory, for instance, I'd never met Rory. I'd never worked with Rory. I just really liked his work and really respected him. And he was my first choice, and he was the first person we went to, and he said yes immediately. I mean, it really was kind of a dream. I. Scenario, Can you give us the, elevator pitch Yes. Jack Goes Home is a semi autobiographical, um, rather dark psychological thriller, I would expect nothing less from you. You know me. Um, but yes, Rory Culkin is a young man whose, parents have been in a terrible car crash. His father has died in the crash. His mother has survived, and he goes back to his hometown to take care of his mother. And in the process of being there, discovers many cracks in his understanding of his childhood and his identity and the identity of his parents. And he's expecting his own first child with his fiance, who's across the world and, at the time, and it's about his unraveling and, his spiral. I started writing the film. We'll, I'm sure we'll get to the process of writing and how my sort of strange order of events with writing, but it definitely had begun. The idea of it had begun, when my father died, I was 22. And my father and I were really close and he was, remains a great motivator and, and kind of idol of mine. Thomas, I'm so sorry. I got to meet your mom and dad. I'm very sorry. You did. That's right. Yeah. And you know, a lot of people from Terminator came to his funeral, which meant a lot to me. But I, I. the evolution of Jack Goes home though as a project was, I'm sure you've had this as well, or you've experienced this where you, I'd been fully immersed in trying to get this other movie made for about a year and a half. And it, that was a totally different thing. It was a kind of very sober minded, romantic drama and that had been going along and doing its thing, but it was just stuck in, development land. And I just sort of, out of desperation was like, I gotta write something else. Like, I gotta write something that just gives me a break from this. And, with Jack Goes home, I'd wanted to make something that was about someone my age, dealing with the loss of, a parent kind of early. And, in my case I had. Also discovered the extent and severity of, sexual abuse I'd experienced as a child and sort of found this out, not from anyone in my family. It was from a neighbor. But I sort of got the, real meaty details on it as my father was dying. And so this kind of one two punch was really what I wanted to explore, but I didn't wanna do it. I didn't wanna explore it in a kind of dreary, sad, victimized, drama because A, I couldn't think of who that would touch. And b, it just seemed a bit naval gazy. But when I sort of hit on, oh, I can turn the intensity of what I felt through this experience into a kind of horror and into a kind of hitchcockian, strange, upsetting thing that kind of got me going. And so after years of development, I finally just pivoted and wrote. the draft of the script and then it moved very quickly. I would love to hang a lantern on what you just said for the writers out there, we all have interesting stories, but they don't necessarily translate to film. You can take your story and turn it into a horror film, a love story, an action adventure, and be true to yourself. Yes. we're going out here in, in different areas, but it's kind of what's exciting to talk about writing is that you do have this. Freedom, like you said, to I think for me personally, you know that question of do you make things for an audience? It's such a strange question because of course, I think we all do the distinction isn't, do you make it for an audience or not? I think it's more so how sincere and authentic are you going to stay to what you want to share. and how much are you going to kind of crumble under the fears and pressures of, oh, well this might alienate a few people. Or this choice might, you know, befuddle someone, it's the willingness and the courage to, to say, no, no, I'm gonna continue on this path because this gives the strongest thing to the audience. To me, that's sort of how I've always looked at it. And to ask yourself very much so going in as I did with that of like. Even if you're making something obscure and personal, you should still, in my opinion, always ask who is this for? And how is it going to reach them? What is it gonna do? Because I do really think that, and I use the term art, but I use it loosely for, it can also involve popcorn entertainment. I think it is there to reach others. Its purpose is to open eyes and, pivot maybe points of view. And I think it really does have that power and it's the necessity inherent to it. So I always try and ask that even if I'm launching into the most seemingly obscure thing, I definitely try to think of how to translate it best. were you happy with the movie with Jack's Home? Yes. With Jack's home, yes and no. I hadn't watched it in years and I just re-watched it. Afr, a writer friend of mine wanted to see it and listen, there's so much of it I'm really proud of, and I was 26 when I made it. I've obviously grown exponentially since. And a lot of the growth I've, encountered as a writer and as a filmmaker is because of lessons I learned in that movie. let's explain, you directed the movie I did. Yes. I'd love to talk to you further about, I always tend to write from a directing perspective, let's get into it right now. I think that's fascinating. in recent years, I've actually been, hired as a writer to, sort of figure out someone else's vision and they're not projects that I'm to direct, and that's been a whole reeducation because I've always come from, in my forming of scripts, very much from the filmmaker's perspective. So the camera language is woven in, the basic production design is woven in. Everything, is there, every choice, every decision. And obviously when you are just the hired writer. you actually have to really focus on not including all that because you don't wanna step on, the toes of the creatives that you're writing this for. So I had to, it was really fascinating. It was like, I sent in my, second or third draft or whatever it was as here's the draft and everyone really liked these scripts, but every time it was, can we do another pass where you remove this and then it was pass where you remove this and it was educational? in my teens, I educated myself as an editor and I very much feel that editing, it's my editor brain is where I write from, where I shoot from, where I direct from. And obviously it's the last phase, but it informs. In many ways, everything before it, the rhythm of a scene and how I know I'm gonna get outta one and into the other, it's a wild thing to like, have not even started writing a script, but I know how I want the sound mix to shift from this beat to this beat, you know? and for the writers out there, you can learn this. You can, like Thomas just said, maybe he overwrote, direction. You can learn those things even if you didn't instinctually, know them at first. now, what inspires your storytelling? I tend to get really excited about, it's less a narrative hook or a storyline that really gets me going. it's more, a sense of a place and a feeling. You know, it's a, oh, what is the world of this story? Or What is the world of this movie? And it tends to just kind of come about in. In regular daily life. I don't know if that's unique or if that's kind of general, but I, it's oftentimes just a minuscule moment or a conversation or a driving at night with a certain song on the radio or, you know, these, all these little things. I wonder if, people realize that those moments exist and they're just missing them and, a creative person like you can just, can tune into that. I love that. That's where you start from. Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, I can't, say it's a, like a big, uh, choice. It just has always been. I think as you said, I think anybody can tap into that inspiration. It's just about being present and having a willingness to follow the daydream and follow the, you know,'cause at first an inspiration's pretty murky. It's pretty vague. You kind of don't really know, at least for me, sometimes I'll have written a whole script and it's not until afterwards that I start realizing, you know, yes, I knew what it was and what it was about and what it was saying on the surface when I wrote it. But it may be sometimes it's after the fact where I start peeling the onion of, oh, but this is really about this and this is really about this. And it's not that I didn't know going in. It's just more of a subconscious, inspiration. And, you know, when that's happened, that's really beautiful too, because you start to. You start to realize the connectivity of everything, you know, and that is a moment of joy when writing. Yes, what makes a screenplay successful? Oh, that's such a difficult question. I, I think it does depend on the project and it does depend on what you're, what you're trying to do. You know, I've read scripts that are really bare bones and for what they are, that bare bones approach, that succinct nature, I think is so powerful and actually leaving a lot of, a lot to question and, and envision on your own as the reader is really beneficial. But then you have other projects that might even, be looked at as overwritten or the stage direction is too much of the writer present, but maybe that's what works for the tone of that thing. and so in terms of pitching, again, I try to always come back to really what is this thing's purpose? And like I said, I think you can, you can really ask that even in something very unique or very personal or very. On the sidelines of interest and you, it, as long as you can really tangibly tap into like, wow, this is how this could reach this potential viewer or reader. And it has validity. I always just try and approach it from that. Like, this is kind of the, the purpose of the thing. and then it's the sense of place and how it's done and what it's evoking. And you know, when I've pitched TV shows, obviously the longevity of the plot and I had a show a few years ago that kind of made it all the way to the top at Showtime and a couple other places. And that was an interesting, that was really my first foray into long form storytelling. What was that about? So that was really interesting. It was a, it's, you know, and hey, it might still happen someday, it's called Barracuda murder mystery noir set in a Vegas drag club. I'm in, I'm in, yeah. So it's kind of a, strange mishmash of like, visually, it's almost kinda like, showgirls, the nineties movie. but in tone, it's quite, quite serious and quite dark. And, and it was fun because I really wanted to make that show a 30 minute, drama, which, is rare. but I liked this format of kind of. Rather than bloating story or extending things for the sake of it, finding a way to approach it, how I would still approach a movie in terms of like trim the fat, cut the nonsense, just get to, which is very much at the forefront of my mind in everything I write regardless of genre or whatever it is. have you watched the studio? So my husband actually is casting associate on the studio, so Yes, yes. I know the show very well. they cut the fat in that show? You just go from heart stopping moment to heart stopping moment. I know they do such a good job of what you just said is your type of writing. The condensed. Yeah. And I think, you know, when I was probably around the time I met you, one of my biggest, sort of teachers, you know, there's a, there's a handful of filmmakers that I consider my each one being like my own little film school. And one of them was the Austrian filmmaker Michael Anneke. And when he would speak about writing scripts, one of the quotes I always remember from him is he said, people ask me where the density of my film comes from. And it's that I come into the scene at the last possible moment and get out of the scene at the first possible moment. And there's never a hello or a how are you? Or and if you look at his stuff, it's true. I remember Don Johnson on Nash Bridges. I worked, the last two seasons of Nash Bridges. Wow. You know, Don Johnson, you know, has a bad rap, probably deservedly so. He's done some crazy things But man, you have a career in this business for 50, 60 years and give me a call later. Yes. he prohibited establishing shots He was like, we're in the building. Do not show the outside of the building. Cut it. Cut it, cut it. that's so wild you say that because, a friend of mine who, I'm very fortunate and I recommend if you are a brighter, you know, I have sort of my, I. Maybe three people who I take something to, to, to take their temperature on it. And they're all very different. But, one of my friends who's been kind enough to read, almost everything I've written, he's actually pointed that out before. He said, you, you don't ever write establishing shots and you don't ever kind of set up. And that's interesting because I hadn't realized I was doing that, but now you mention it. yeah, you rarely hear that, but, good for you, DJ Don Johnson. That's right. And by the way, I just wanna tack onto that too, I think it's really important as a writer and as a filmmaker, at least just my opinion is, don't harass those around you and don't, ask too much of people. But I thoroughly always recommend share your project with. There with a myriad of people that are all very different, and even some that you think maybe this isn't for them, they won't like it, or they won't get it, or they won't, whatever. It's really useful to, take a temperature from everyone because the way at least that I differentiate between useful notes and notes to ignore because I think that's a really difficult thing as a writer mm-hmm. Discern is if you get the sense that someone's giving you a note because that's just how they would like it to be. Like, that's maybe not a note to take if it rubs up against you, you know, if it rubs you the wrong way. But if it's a note where it is for the general improvement of what you're trying to do, if it gets what you're trying to say across clearer, even if maybe it goes against what you thought it should be, you should consider it because. I know, and I do the same with reading film reviews. I and I, every negative review of what I've made has been infinitely more useful than any positive review of what I've made. Because even if I vehemently disagree, even if I take the stance of, well, this person didn't understand what I was trying to do, okay, but that doesn't, that's not a dismissal of what they had to say, because you should investigate, well, how did this get so misconstrued? How did this get misunderstood? How did this get interpreted this way or that way? And what can I do in the future to mitigate that? And it's not about placating the reader or the critic or the audience. It's about getting to the absolute clearest you can on what you're trying to do and say that is, oh, sorry, a plane is going. Could you hear that plane? That's my ride. It's here. Thomas. That is such great advice. Don't get depressed. Roll up your sleeves. Look at it. And oh, also, I liked what you said at the top about yes, you have to give yourself out to read, but don't, ruin a relationship by asking one person to read 10 drafts of your screenplay. No, never not try to avoid multiple drafts. Always. They're just gonna hate you. Do you have a favorite genre you like to write in? You know, I was just thinking about this a while ago. the best way I can put it is I just love to write tension. I think that probably out of everything I've written, the one through line, since they're so vastly all over the place and different from one another, the one through line is that there's a, a sense of a ticking clock and a sense of what, where is this going? What's going to happen? And I personally, which is a distinction that isn't really talked about that much, To me, there's two ways of deriving that tension or that magnetism, or that hold on the audience. And one is from the narrative. It's narrative revelations, narrative plot, twists, narrative grip. But the other is, comes from the relationship between the viewer and what they're watching. And a lot of my tension that I try to build comes from building a distrust between what I'm doing and what you are receiving. And I think that for me, is what excites me most. Where, it's hard to do without a visual analogy here on a podcast, but. to me, there's three ways in which a creator moves and one is the come hither come to me, I'm beckoning you. I'll give you every piece of entertainment you want. Like whatever you want. Here it is, you know, come and grab it. And then the other is the very pretentious, I make this for me back off, go away. I don't really care about what you think, you know, this is, this is what it is. And then the third one, which is the one I like. It's this sort of wink, wink, sneaky, no, no, no. Come here. I'm gonna show you something hopefully you've not seen before. I'm gonna give you a series of feelings you hopefully haven't been through before, but I'm with you and it's out of respect for you that I'm gonna take you on this ride. So let me take you on this kind of this wild ride that you've hopefully not been on before. And so it is both bold and singular visioned, but it is again, with the audience in mind and. I love when I watch something and I don't know where the director's taking me, or I don't know where the writer is going with this, but I'm fully engaged and pulled in. And to answer your question in this very long-winded way, I've never really been fully married to a genre, but I tend to write, thriller, noir, horror, drama with suspenseful aspects. I'm not really a big comedy writer. I like black comedy and I like satire. I write a lot of satire into what I do. the script I just finished is a really interesting kind of two-hander between this sort of middle aged, middle American nondescript woman and this 22 year olds massive actress, influencer star. And there's a lot of satire and a lot of black comedy in it, but it arises in the sort of observations of society and culture and, the kind of oxymoronic nature of so much of what we consume and how we behave today. So, you know, I like to find the, the humor in that rather than in situational or dialogue Do you have, writers who have influenced you? what interests me most is the kind of auteurist thing, right? So a lot of the screenwriters that have spoken to me were also filmmakers, who write and direct their own thing. that to me has always been extremely inspirational and educational. I love all the greats that I've spoken about in terms of how they write. Just as much as how they make movies.'cause I also think that, the writing is so, like, good filmmaking and good writing. They need each other. They're, yeah, they're codependent. I really love reading philosophy. right now I'm reading the Uncanny by Freud which I read years ago and it's just so fascinating to wait. You're reading Freud for the second time? Yes. could you get your husband on the podcast? I think I need to talk. I know, I know. It's terrible. little light reading before bed. A little light reading before bed. Yeah. I can't help it. actually, when we first knew each other. I had such kind of embarrassment about my deep love for, I don't know quite how, what the proper adjectives are, but highly intellectual or challenging or, works because when you're young and you're surrounded by, other young people, they kind of look at you as a hipster or a poser or a lunatic, or, I'm not sure what, but over the years of getting older, it's been nice to kind of land in like, no, this is, these are the kind of writings that interest me. These are the kind of conversations I wanna have. And yeah, some of them are heavy and heavy and difficult, but that, has its place. Most definitely. Oh, Thomas Decker, I'm so proud of you. Thank you. I really am. very much appreciated. It is very kind of you. do you have a writing routine? What do you do? Yes, so I, I'll two answers to that. I'll try and keep it brief, but I do think it's a, for writers is an important thing to figure out. I tend to have the same approach in every script I've written. At least that is mine. Like I said, when I've been outsourced, it's been a different, I just have to approach this more as a professional and do the job at hand. But when it's my own script, I have an insanely long development stage. Very long years. this script that I just wrote is a good example. I spent seven years developing it and wrote the first draft in seven days. so I spend a really long time on each thing, getting to know the world, figuring out all the rules, figuring out everything that's going on, and then eventually it reaches a point where the outline can be written. And the outline for me is very extensive. it's a roadmap to the whole movie. Preach, preach, preach. I think it's really important, at least for me, I've never been able to just sit down in front of a writing program, be like, okay, I'm starting a script, and we'll see where it goes. It just isn't possible for me. I've tried it and it just doesn't, it I need the whole thing. written before me in a way that I can then translate the script from. And so by the time I write the script, I'm really, all I'm doing is finding the dialogue, finding the flow of conversation, and obviously the best way to translate what's going on through stage direction. But the movie that, or the show or whatever it is written in the outline. How were you at stage direction when you first started? Because you can literally sit there and go, how does a person open a door? You know, you don't know how to describe it. you read it growing up'cause you were acting since you were a child. But I'm just curious, how were you with stage direction? I love that you asked that. because it's actually, I think the kind of the most challenging and my favorite thing to write is stage direction. And I think there are so many ways in which you can. Approach that, like I have a friend who really inserts himself in many ways. You know, the narrator, voice of the writer in the stage directions, and there's something more conversational and approachable about it. For me personally, I like to carry over the brevity and succinct focus, that I try to bring to the narrative and the dialogue and the characters. I also like to apply that to the stage direction. And what I've learned over the years, and this is in general, was that, you know, when I was younger I would overwrite it would be too much. And it's actually, I think, easily, it's easy to do. You can write a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of things that are sort of describing something, but it's harder. And better, in my opinion, to sort of go, no, what's the cleanest, sharpest, tightest way I can say exactly what's happening versus many, many, many, many, many, many, many flowery ways to say sort of what's happening. And it's harder because you are having to tap into the meat of what it is rather than any of the bells and whistles. you asked me earlier what to me, makes a great screenplay and it's, I'm a stickler for, is it well written? I'm sure you know better than anybody, so many major studio scripts I read will come my way and I'll look at it and just be like, regardless of what's happening. In the script, just the technical ability and prowess of, of the quality of how it is written, spelled, you know, punctuate, grammar, all of it. If that's lazy, which is so often the case or I, I sort of, the script loses me. So, you know, why should I apply myself to your writing if you haven't applied yourself in the delivery of it? So I know that that's maybe just my opinion and it's maybe because my mother was an English teacher who was really tough on me and everything I ever wrote growing up about all that. But I do think it shows a level of respect to your reader and it shows a level of consciousness behind your choices. writers out there, please go highlight that, print it out, put it above your desk. Thomas speaks the truth. I don't mean to over answer or go on and on, but I do think that much like acting, I've always said, yes, of course you can go to school, you can go to class, you can train, and all those things can, they can educate you and give you the tools and everything else, but ultimately whether you are able to tap into that part of yourself or not is kind of an instinctive thing and kind of a thing you're born with. And it's kind of just a part of who you are. And I think that tracks for writing as well. I don't think you necessarily have to. Have a massive degree from somewhere in writing to find your voice, to find your stamp, to figure out what matters to you and how, and why you wanna say it. I think maybe where the educational elements do come in is just in the, strength of your actual manuscript. And again, I was very fortunate having been an actor for 32 years and reading scripts since I could read, it's been an active education that I didn't go to university for. But it was, you know, you, you read hundreds of scripts, you start to deduce what works, what doesn't, what the best way to, to articulate something is versus another. but I would say to any writer, I think that's important to, to focus on. I just, I was just thinking as you were talking, was it, is it hard for you as an actor to, maybe see a problem in a script, but it's not your job. You're hired as an actor and you go on set and you're hanging out with a writer. Is it hard for you not to go, hey, you know, the second speech, do you think you could do, do you ever like, talk to a writer on set? And I have such respect for writers, and even if it's a script or a piece or a project I and I, I always think that filmmaking and TV making all of it is, is should be completely collaborative. The writers and the actors should be speaking, the actors and the directors should be speaking. Everybody should be doing their best. Bringing their skills and talents to the table to improve the thing. I tend, and maybe it's the child actor in me growing up, I definitely see. Part of my job is to take what is placed in front of me and within reason, make it true. My job isn't to come in and say, well, I don't see how I can make this believable. So you need to change it. and I see that a lot, and my God, everyone from Hitchcock to Wells has talked about that, the idea of actors coming and saying, well, let's change everything. Let's figure it out. For me is kind of taking more of a writer's perspective than an actor's perspective. And maybe because I am both, and because when I spend, painstakingly long time figuring out exactly, the words of this sentence, what it needs to be, to then have an actor come in and go, well, that doesn't sit on my tongue naturally, so I need to change it to et cetera. I felt that frustration. So I, as an actor, really try to, you know, even if I read a line, I'm like, man, that's a hard one to make work. Well, that's my job. I'm always well aware that I am one piece and even as a, even as director, even if I'm in full blown, maniacal, okay. It's my vision. It has to be what it is. You still have to come from the understanding that like you, You are equal to every person that is putting this thing together. And without one, it doesn't work. And that includes all the way down to craft service and set medic, right? So it's, think in all areas, if you can, including writing, it's best to remove the ego. It's best to, I will say brief diversion. I wrote this film in 2020 that I've spent the last five years, literally every day, working toward getting made. It was two years of figuring out the script and then I. Sort of got a whole team together and then replaced them with another. it's this long, arduous road. And the reason that even though I've written so many things since and have so many other irons in the fire, it's the one, it is the one, it is the like, I will die, you know, if I have to. Making this thing was because it was the first thing I'd ever written and was a real game changer. That in terms of, it felt like it was something that was like beamed into me. Like I was an open radio signal and this thing came in rather than it being, oh, this is my creation, this is my invention, this is a part of me, in this. And because what that as I know as hippie dippy and far out as that may sound, it's allowed me to defend it without involving my ego because it doesn't feel like it's me and my thing. It feels like it's this thing. I've been tasked with translating and it's my job to make sure that everything I've seen, heard, felt a. Million plus times internally is getting onto the screen. And so I've had options to make the movie and I've said no, because they weren't the right ones and it wasn't, it ultimately, it wouldn't have been what the movie is. And so in general, if you can find ways to either organically have your ego stripped of your project and it becomes this thing that you're kind of protecting, or to consciously say, I'm gonna ask for notes. I'm gonna ask for critical remarks. I'm gonna put this in vulnerable places for me. But that's okay because it's for the betterment of the thing and the betterment for me as a writer. And my self-worth isn't wrapped up in my rapidity, in my turnaround, in my praise. I get, if you can really establish yourself on a sturdy ground like that, I think it really opens up the doors of what you can do and where you can go as a writer. And so I think that's really important for, especially for young people, because I think the self and the peace are kind of inextricable unless you're consciously, actively removing the you from what you're making. Thomas, thank you so much for sharing that with our listeners. How have you changed as a writer? what didn't, you know when you sat down as that 14-year-old and started to write, first of all, the evolution as a human being I think is you grow as a person. You grow as, an artist. You in whatever your field is. You of course, the more you understand about yourself and life, the stronger and mature and more direct your work becomes. So obviously there's been the, just the natural evolution of living. Um, but at least for me, it really has been about finding discipline. And I don't mean discipline in terms of the act of writing. That's another thing we can talk about. But discipline in terms of. I think probably, I'll say this, the biggest game changer I've had over time is the increasing realization of how little time I have and how I'm probably only really going to have a handful of things, in my lifetime. You know, certainly, at least from a filmmaking perspective, that I will be able to leave as a legacy. And so you start pivoting away from all of it and start honing in on, on the it, the it of what you wanna do and say. And so I think when I started writing scripts at 14, there were parts of life I wanted to explore, characters. I wanted to explore, I think in large part to learn and figure out and understand the real world and my life around me. And now it's sort of gone in the other direction where I understand my life and the world around me. And now I'm informing and filling my scripts with that knowledge as opposed to using writing as a tool to discover. Kind of what's going on internally. I'm a very personal writer. It's different than if you're aspiring to be a television writer or something else. Everything I'm talking about is rather, deep rooted and psychological. Thomas, I think it fits perfectly though for this podcast and who our listeners are, Everything you are saying, I have like chills on my arms. I cannot wait to put this episode out. you are really focusing in on what's gonna help our writers out there, the listeners to this podcast. And I'm really, really appreciate this. are you watching anything interesting on tv? Oh, let's wait. The studio opening scene. Yes. he's in that golf cart. He goes by my favorite private bathroom, you know, on a lot. We all have our favorite getaway. Yes. He drives right by it and then it's the building right next to what they call, uh, what was their headquarters or the studio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The account. These, the Sarah Connor offices. I know. Believe me, when I first saw the first episode with my husband, I went, oh, I know that building. Well, by the way, on that show, I think it was a good example. In a way, it encapsulates what we've been talking about, where that was a TV situation and that was a traditional writer's room. But I, at least from where I sat, I always felt there was a personal stamp from every writer if you'd given me one of the scripts and not told me who wrote it, by the end of the show, I had a sense of what Dan was gonna write about and what Tony was gonna write about and what Josh was gonna write about it was a really good education and like, wow, you can do something this massive and part of a franchise and still find a way to put your personal, I. Stamp on air. I loved those writers. it was such a special moment in time. Sarah Connor. It was, wait, it was Terminator, the Sarah Chronicles. Okay. A short, easy title out. Josh wanted the Sarah Conner Chronicles, but the studio, even though we were on Warner Brothers, the studio was on the, was Fox and Fox. Well, I guess'cause they owned the franchise, right? Yeah. They kept saying to Josh, you are insane. If you don't put Terminator in the title, that's the calling card. So the compromise was the longest title in history, Terminator. The Sarah Connor Chronicle. Which is so funny because if, if anyone who knew Terminator would know who Sarah Connor was, so, you know, they're synonymous. But, but I have to say, I'm very proud. We did wipe all the terminators off the back lot that were possibly there and we made Warner Brothers safe for the studio. We did. We did. It was, we did a fun job of that. years after we finished the show for some audition or some meeting or something and my parking space was still there. Still had my name, written on the concrete. Oh, get outta town. Where was your parking? It was right behind the, like right by the sound stage, our main sound stage, where the trailers and everything were. Uh, was that 24? Is that the, that sounds that sounds correct. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, there was one stage that, to get to it, Charlie Sheen's, big old trailer. Yep, yep. Lost the shortcut to get to the stage. So one day I was like, F it, I don't care. I'm going the shortcut and I'm going past Charlie's trailer, which you weren't supposed to do. And, I was lucky enough to see Charlie smoking outside his trailer. So. I remember they were shooting, Indiana Jones at the sound stage next to ours and, Shyla B and his dad used to come and hang out in my trailer and smoke and play guitar. So I had a guitar there, get Outta Town. I didn't know any of that. Yeah, quite a lot during the, during filming.'cause I would just sort of sit on the steps of my trailer and play my guitar, you know, like a young teen actor. And, I think I met his dad first and we just sort of started talking and then he came over and, yeah. Yeah. whichever Indiana what that was, the Crystal Temple of Skulls of Dew, I'm not quite sure exactly. yeah, nothing more fun than shooting on a set. I agree. I will say this though, which ties into everything else. I really love a random, location shoot somewhere. I would never go, you know, because I'm always inspired. It's a strange thing you put me in, New York or London, I have a great time. I'm overstimulated, I'm very present, but I'm not coming up with stuff and I'm not writing things down. But you put me, like last year I was in, for all of November and half of December I was at the border of Kansas and Missouri, kind of really rural And I had a lot of days off and sure enough, by the end of this kind of being in the middle of nowhere in really cold Missouri, I had a whole new script. And I wrote that in January before I wrote this new one in this other one in March. And so I tend to be really. Inspired by places. You know, I, I love where it's like, what's that one house at the end of that road? What's going on there? Who lives there? What's their story? You know, that's what kind of gets me going. And then particularly when I am on location, I usually have uninterrupted private time where I'm not needed and I'm not being bothered and I can just sit and write because to, to finish the structure question, I really, which might be good for, writers to hear, I don't know. I've done the, trying to force myself into boxes of you get up and you start writing at this time and you do this many pages a day. And because I admire people who can do that, I admire people who are like, yeah, I just write five pages a day or whatever. I am not one of those people. I write in big bursts and then I have periods where I'm just sitting and thinking, and I, and I'm not writing at all. And I've had some scripts that I've written, like I said, the new one in seven days. And I've had other ones that I've written over the course of a year and a half. But you know. I stopped forcing a structure upon myself and instead actually asked myself, okay, what is the pace that works for you? And just do that the best you can. And the pace for me is sort of to, once I commit to, okay, I'm writing a script, it's that when the burst comes and 35 pages fly out, just do it. Go with it, don't question it, roll with it. And then if the next day you don't wanna write anything, that's fine too. And that's just been what's worked for me. I'm sure for many aspiring writers, the placing the strong structure would be more helpful. But I think whatever your natural rhythm is, just try and make that the best thing you can as opposed to, comparing and despairing and, and trying to follow someone else's roadmap of, of how to write. Because I do think the most, I there is nothing in entertainment or art that requires as much self-discipline as writing to me. it's still the thing of like, come on, you just have to sit down and get this out. But it's very different than when you're shooting something, when you're editing something, when you're scoring something, it's, it requires a total focus. And so I think you have to be compassionate with your own inner rhythms to achieve that focus and sustain it. More importantly. and believe me, I'm very aware that I'm speaking from a place of privilege right. my work is very freelance. It's very all over the place. So I'm not trapped in a work rhythm, you know. But I have been, my side hustle when I'm not acting or writing or directing, is I edit, I cut things for work. And when I'm doing that, it's kind of a nine to seven schedule. And so it is difficult, usually in those periods I'm not writing anything and I, my heart goes out to. The passionate writer who for life reasons, most of their time or their energy or their focus is being taken up by other things. I think that can cause a lot of frustration and a lot of difficulty and I, I have nothing but sympathy for that and I don't really know what the, what if there's any advice for a situation like that I think you did give, advice, don't punish yourself if you don't have the perfect routine. write the 10 pages and if you don't write the next weekend, don't beat yourself up. Exactly. Thomas, would you like to play a round of brain drops before we wrap up? Oh my god. I don't know what that is, but yes, sure. Brain drops is a q and a with answers only a writer can provide God. Okay, we're gonna see how many you can answer in five minutes. I'm very scared. are you ready? I, I as ready as I'll ever be. Okay. I'm gonna start the clock. When writing music on or off, it depends, but usually off. If you're reading a hard copy of a script, one Brad or two. Two. Whiteboard or legal pad. Legal pad. Final draft or Celtics Final draft from the past or present, what TV show do you wish you rode on? Twin Peaks, widows and orphans. Get rid of'em all. I don't really care. For the listeners, that's when you have one word that hangs off a section of text or dialogue. Kill'em all. Favorite snack when writing? Oh, it's embarrassing. I love tater tots. Do you cook them, Thomas, or do you eat them frozen from me? I, I do. I oven them. I, I throw a tray in and then they're just there to pick at over time. Favorite snack at Crafty, which is Craft services. Oh, I love those, uh, Welch's fruit snacks that every craft service has. Those are great. Do you come up with the title for your scripts at the beginning or at the end? At the beginning occasionally written, with an untitled situation and then found it, but that's really only happened once or twice. And actually, in fact, the title is one of the things that kind of gives me the rest of it. Writing at home, PJ's, sweats, or clothes. Sweats, shaded parking spot right next to the production office. Or 20 5K extra in the budget. Oh, 20 5K extra in the budget. your parking space is already there at Warner Brothers. That's right. I, yeah. Favorite time to write Day or night? Night. Who would you hire? A staff writer who never fails to write the perfect joke or line of dialogue, or a staff writer whose first draft needs a minimal rewrite? Oh God. Probably this, probably the second one. The, first draft that needs a minimal rewrite. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. You did this so fast. I didn't even have to play the, alarm. Where's the alarm? You won. That was fun. That was, I can't believe I unveiled my embarrassing tater tot habit. do you have socials out there where maybe writers could reach out and ask you a question Yes, I really, my main one is Instagram and that's just Thomas dot decker. And, obviously Instagram's a an image based thing, but I try to always include some extensive writing and, uh, yeah, please hit me up, DM me, ask me anything. Thomas Decker, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy to talk to you, Sandy. And that's a wrap for the Writer's Hangout. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Your positive feedback will help us keep the show going so we can continue bringing you more future episodes. Remember, keep writing. The world needs your stories. The Writers Hangout is sponsored by the Page International Screenwriting Awards, with executive producer Kristen Overn, producer Sandy Adamides, and myself, Terry Sampson. And our music is composed by Ethan Stoller.