ROI or Die: The Truth About Performance Marketing

In this episode of The Tarryn Reeves Show, I sit down with Borja Cuan, a performance advertising veteran who’s been in the game since 1998 and the mind behind Four15 Digital. We break down what performance advertising actually means (it’s not “boost a post and pray”), why results and ROI are the only scoreboard that matters, and what separates businesses that scale from businesses that bleed money on ads.

But this isn’t just a marketing chat. We go deep on leadership, client experience, employee retention, and the mindset required to stay standing when business decides to punch you in the face… repeatedly. Borja shares what he’s learned from building high-performing teams, working with fast-growth companies, and why soft skills and standards still matter, especially in a world obsessed with screens, shortcuts, and “authenticity” that’s really just laziness.

If you’re an entrepreneur, CEO, or leader who wants better results, stronger relationships, and a business that actually holds up under pressure, this conversation will hit.

In this episode, we cover:

• What performance advertising is and how it’s measured (revenue, CAC, ROAS, ROI)
• Why most business owners waste ad spend (and what to do instead)
• What Google, Microsoft, LinkedIn, Meta, and TikTok ads really require to perform
• How 415 Digital qualifies clients (and why alignment matters more than hype)
• Traits Borja sees in companies that scale fast (and what “unicorn energy” actually looks like)
• Leadership resilience: staying steady when clients leave, staff resign, and chaos hits
• Client experience as your most powerful (and cheapest) marketing strategy
• Employee retention: onboarding, culture, and building loyalty without corporate fluff
• Why standards, manners, and real communication are becoming a competitive advantage
• The “AI with a human touch” conversation (and what we risk losing if we outsource thinking)

The Book Drop 📚

Borja’s pick: Mindset by Carol Dweck, a powerful read on fixed vs. growth mindset and how the way you think shapes how far you go.

If you loved this episode, share it with a business owner who needs a reality check on ads, leadership, or both, and keep an eye on the show notes for Borja’s links and ways to connect.

Connect with Borja:

• Website
• LinkedIn

Connect with Tarryn

Transcript

0:39

Okay, welcome to another episode of the Tarryn Reeves Show. This is the, I think, third time my friend Borja and I are trying to record this amazing conversation, but please welcome Borja Cuan to the show. He joined the performance advertising industry in 1998 and has built a career in the industry providing strategic business solutions for teams and clients. His track record of helping grow stable, successful organizations is underpinned by a career-long personal commitment to great client experiences. Borja combines big picture perspective with exacting attention to make sure 415's clients and team members get value out of their work every day. Borja, I'm excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this. uh third time's a charm. time lucky, my friend. Awesome. Let's talk about performance advertising and what that actually means for those listening who are like, I know what advertising is, but what's performance advertising? Yeah, it's kind of a broad term. could mean a few different things as it relates to my business. uh We are a marketing agency that helps companies scale through digital advertising. So that specifically is Google, Microsoft, Bing, LinkedIn, uh Meta, uh TikTok, and a few other platforms. And so for us, whenever we work with a client or a business, We are being measured by results, i.e. numbers. So we have to drive performance, uh which for many businesses that we work with is growing revenue. It's acquiring a customer at a certain dollar amount. It's uh seeing a specific return on ad spend or return on investment. So it's very numerically uh focused uh outcomes, and they work with us uh only. ah if we drive a specific performance for them. Yep, yep, well I mean that- They say, we're gonna give you a million dollars. Yeah. uh I was just going to say, so they give us a specific advertising budget and they say, here are the goals and objectives that we have and we need to hit those goals and objectives. So we're managing their advertising dollars across these platforms, but there needs to be a very specific uh result that we drive for them. Mm, yeah. Well, that makes sense. I mean no business owner really wants to flush their money down the advertising toilet. But so many of us do because I know myself, like I tried to run a LinkedIn ad the other day. My goodness, what a disaster. And even setting it up, I was like, this is not my zone of genius. Why am I doing this? And then I got all annoyed that I had really literally flushed my money down the toilet. I was like, this is so annoying. know, advertising is something that I think not everybody loves doing their own. Everyone loves the result, of course. But what initially drew you to the industry and you've been in it for decades now, what keeps you passionate? Yeah, I mean, I've been uh doing this for 20, I uh think 26 years, give or take a year or two. I started my uh career back in 1998, right out of college. And honestly, what drove me was not my own personal desire. It just happened to be that when I was looking for work, the recruiter that I was working with said, hey, I have an interview uh for you at this internet startup. They saw your resume. They think you'd make a good fit. And I was like, okay, read more about the company on the website. uh I really actually didn't even really understand what they did when I went to their website, to be frank. And then I ended up getting an interview at that company. uh I didn't get the job that I applied for. Ah and I left that interview feeling like I was under qualified. But then they called me back and said, Hey, we didn't think you were qualified for this position, but we have a lesser or more junior position that we think you would make a good fit for and we want you to come in and interview for that position. So I returned, I think the following day and ended up interviewing for that position as an account representative. And uh I ended up getting that job. And that was my introduction to affiliate marketing, digital marketing, performance marketing. And I ended up staying with that company for eight years and then I continued in the industry. Um, so yeah, I kind of got a taste of it. I really liked, uh, you know, the, the, the, the constant evolution of the industry. liked kind of the people I was meeting along the way. I was learning a lot. I felt it was bringing. impact to the businesses that we work with. So there was a lot of value being derived. So I just kept sort of a course and didn't leave the industry. Amazing. yeah, I'm just fascinated that you've stayed in it for so long because it's not something you see many people doing anymore. So I love that you found really, which is what is obviously your zone of genius and you've grown 415 digital out of that. What kind of companies are you now looking for? Because I know that you've helped grow some very successful businesses. Who do you work with? Yeah, we've evolved in terms of the criteria or the characteristics we look for when working with companies. Initially, when we launched 415 Digital, we were very hungry to acquire our first customer. We frankly didn't care if they paid us or how much they paid us. We just wanted to get the opportunity to prove to them that we would be able to bring value and we were very confident in our abilities. uh so for us, it was just about bringing in bringing in customers and proving to them our worth because we knew if we did a good job, they would refer customers to us. They would be with us for a long time. um So right now um it's been, the criteria has changed. That was initially what we were looking for. Just do you want to work with us? We're an unknown entity in a very competitive environment, right? Now that we've matured and now we have more of a business established, We do look for specific things when looking for a business. Obviously they need to afford our fees, right? We charge minimum fees as an agency to manage people's advertising dollars and build their campaigns out. But beyond that, we're really looking to partner and match up with business people who are aligned with the direction that we want to take their business. What that means is not that they need to agree with everything that we say. We value different points of view and different ideas, but in general, are we in line with how we want to move forward in terms of our strategy? So initially when we consult with a prospect, we're actually doing some upfront consulting work by way of audits. So we'll audit their marketing campaigns across the different platforms. We'll put together a very comprehensive um audit outlining the good, the bad, the ugly. What do we see that's being done well? Conversely, what do we see that isn't being done well? And then most importantly, what would we do if we were in the driver's seat to turn their business around? And so as we go through that presentation and we answer questions and we ask questions and we sort of share our point of view and not based on sort of opinion, but based on math and experience, we get a sense for does this prospect align with us in the way we're thinking about digital marketing in their business, right? So we're looking not only for their financial stability, can they afford us? Will they be a long-term partner? But also do we have the right people on the client side to help us get to the finish line? Because sadly, we don't control 100 % of this. We wanna control 100%, but we don't. So it's really important to make sure that you are really aligned with the people that you're gonna be working with and that they agree with the direction that you wanna take for their business. So it's, can they afford us? It's do the personalities align well? It's do they have resources to support our efforts? Because we don't do everything. We do many things, but we don't do everything. So we want to make sure that they have the right infrastructure from a human capital side to support the things that we're doing to make them successful. um And that they're willing to commit to this for a period of time. Because as you know, success is not overnight. Right? And we need to give this program or these programs ample time or adequate time to prove themselves out. We need ample time to test, which means we need someone to have patience with us. Right? If they're looking for a 30 day engagement, we're not aligned. If they're looking to make decisions week to week, we're not aligned. We need to be in this for at least four to five months. together testing different ideas, optimizing things to determine what the sort of viability is of these programs. And I think it's very clear that that makes 415 quite quite different because I mean I could hop on Upwork or Fiverr and I could pay $10 an hour for someone who says that they can run my Facebook ad campaign But you guys are taking a really more holistic approach and a strategic approach Which is the only way that you're really going to make your money back or your ROI on advertising spend is to be strategic about it ah So I love that. Let's talk unicorn companies Right. Because I know that you've worked with a couple. What are some of the most common traits that you've seen in companies like that that do reach that status straight out of the gate or what appears to be straight out of the gate? We all know it's not. It's years of hard work behind the behind the scenes of entrepreneurs perspective, but unicorn status. Yeah, just what you said was the first thing that came to mind is uh they uh have put in a lot of work to achieve that status, that $1 billion uh status. So they understand that the road is long, that that's going to require a lot of work. uh I find that the people that I've worked with that are part of those organizations, whether they're uh founders or individuals, not non-founding members is they understand that the pro it's really a lot about understanding that things take time, right? And then you want to align with the right partners that can help you achieve your goals or exceed your goals, right? So it's kind of like they have the right people that they've uh hired internally or externally or combination of to help them achieve really good progress, right? And they're quick to make adjustments. when they see that there's sort of not alignment, right? Or these partners or these individuals are not sort of producing results. So they're quick at making decisions as it relates to teams, personnel, right? ah They understand that you need to have patience with marketing programs, that they're not overnight, no different than becoming a unicorn. You know, when you're investing in media, you need to give it enough time. Right. You need to be willing to test. You need to be willing to spend money. It's not going to be a 30 day thing, which I talked about five minutes ago, but it's kind of really relevant here. They invest in product development a lot. and they, they just have the mindset of growth, right? They, they, they are not fixed mindset people. They are growth mindset people. They, uh, you know, um, are there to do whatever is needed to grow the business. They don't worry about politics. They don't take things personally. They are just focused on aligning themselves and working with people that are very, very motivated and inspired to grow. And so that's what are some of the kind of the characteristics, I would say, of the people that the clients that we've worked with that have become unicorns. Yeah, amazing. And we were talking about Mindset just before we actually officially pressed record and we were having such a good conversation about cold plunging because it's winter here in Australia, it's summer there in California. And we were talking about cold plunging and how good that makes us feel after the fact. But during the fact, it's not many people enjoy it and not many people will do things that push them out of their comfort zone, will do things that they don't have to do or someone's not forcing them to do. And I really think that that does make the difference between uh a an entrepreneur, but also a good leader, both in your personal life and your professional life. What are your thoughts? I couldn't agree more. I think nothing good in my life has come easy. Fortunately and unfortunately, I always tell my team, um even looking back at my career, whenever I've gotten promotions by title or increases of pay, no employer ever came to me. Like and said, you've done a good job. It happens, by the way, and it also doesn't happen a lot in corporate America. It was always me instigating the conversation and asking three or four times and making sure I held people accountable. You said, if I did this, you said, if we did this by this date, there would be this review or there would be this comp change. Like, I just remember it always being me. Right. And I always say like you, you know, going back to like mindset. Yeah. I mean, you have to be in, in, your career, be willing to, you have to look out for yourself. as much as we want other people to look out for ourselves, like you have to have the mindset of, this is my journey. I care about myself more than anybody else. And it's up to me to make these things happen. Right. I'm going to need people to support me along the way. And I'm going to, I'm going to talk to people and I'm going to ask for their help. And I'm going to align with the right mentors and coaches and things like that. But at the end of the day, you have to have the mindset of you just need to make it happen. Right. And so for me, I just believe in putting myself in uncomfortable situations because it's through those situations that I've always learned the most about myself. I like the mental challenge, not necessarily during the process, but after the fact, I seem to get a lot of gratification and fulfillment from it. And when you have a business, you have to have a strong mindset. You have to have a mental stamina. you have to have the ability to endure pain and suffering. That to me is my superpower, is like my ability to endure pain and suffering. A client screws me over, an employee leaves me, uh someone is suing, there's always something that happens um that doesn't go your way, but that's okay. That is normal. It doesn't just happen to me as a business owner. It happens to most people, if not all people. Right? I think the difference is, is who has the mental strength, the mental stamina, the mental fortitude to withstand that pressure, that frustration, and understand that like everything, it will pass. Right? And if you don't dwell on it and you accept it as normal, I think you are ahead of the game. Because for me, when I get bad news, I'm like, it's normal. You know? I know no matter what a client tells me, I've seen it happen. You guys have broken records for us. And then the next day they'll say, we're going with someone else. I'm scratching my head. like, but you just told me we had a record breaking year. Yeah, well, and then it's like, okay, an employee, you give them everything they asked for plus 20 % more and something as a gift. I love it. I'm so happy here. Two days later, I'm leaving. I'm confused. Wait, you just, you know. These are all things that are normal in business. Like you just learn that that's part of having a business. It's not fair. ah But if you were looking for the playing field to be fair, you have no business being a business owner. it's just like, like that's not the world in which we live in, right? But the mindset of just that's okay. It's normal. It will pass. It happens. I always I always look forward to the wins because once you taste winning, right, in business, that's what allows you to kind of get through those moments. Cause you've already, you've already been there when you guys are like thriving, right? When you win a good deal, when you retain a customer, when you deliver record results, when you promote an employee four times and they're making more money than they ever have before. There's all these reasons that you are so happy to be a business owner. That's what's keeping you motivated, right? The stuff that doesn't go your way is just part of having a business. m I couldn't agree more and I laugh because um I'm a people pleaser. uh Well, I'm a recovering people pleaser. And when I first went into business and honestly something I still struggle with is taking things personally. Like things are gonna go wrong. People aren't gonna be happy even though 10 minutes ago they said they were happy. I'm actually having this experience right now with a client through no fault of my own. uh that just not not an aligned client, I should have done my homework. But these things happen and you do have to have that resilience and that mental fortitude to be able to move through it. But I do believe that mental fortitude and resilience can be learned. And having that growth mindset really helps. Has that been your experience? So you think someone that does not have it can acquire that? I call it a skill set or you do. Okay. And you've experienced that in your life where someone that you met didn't, but then they develop that through experience you've seen. for you. Yeah. Okay. experience to go, you know, I'm an accidental entrepreneur, honestly. Like I was climbing the corporate ladder. I had a degree in criminology, totally not related to publishing. I was climbing the corporate ladder, had the six-figure job, the new car the suits the corner office at the age of 23. Really wasn't happy. Had a massive burnout, quit my high flying career, had a baby. and then decided that I never wanted to go back to corporate again and that there was a different way. Now, I do believe that I was always born to be an entrepreneur because there are certain traits that I think you either have or you don't. But that mindset, I think, is something that you can develop. And through taking the hits again and again and again, because like we were saying before we hopped on the call, being an entrepreneur or a business owner is like getting punched in the face again and again. And we just get back up for more and we go more please. Whereas the people who don't have this underlying, these underlying traits would just lie down and go, not, not for me, I'm going to go and get paid by someone else and have my paid sick days and clock off at five and not lie awake at three a.m. with the next big business idea and all of those sorts of things. So I do believe that you are born with some things, but I do believe there are some things that you can learn. I agree. Yeah, I mean, I think you can and I think taking something personally is okay, depending on how it makes. You know how it affects you, impacts you and your ability to lead the business and grow the business like if you're just like Oh I take it personally then i can move move on like for me i become very transactional i don't know that's a good thing by the way but i'm kind of like hey was just a transaction right they you know like i try not to think that way but i think what i try to do is separate the personal from the business and just say hey they made a decision. It doesn't really matter why at this point they made their decision. And would I like to keep them as a customer, as an employee? Yes. But when someone wants to break up with me, I tend to not want them to be with me because I'm sort of like, almost like, I want you to be with me if you want to be with me, right? Not just because I want to be with you. It needs to be both of us really feeling the same way. So I think that's one of the ways I've been able to preserve my sanity, my youth, my health. is really just to not take things personally, uh even though it does sting, right? And by the way, I should say not every relationship with an employee or a customer is the same. Some of our employees and some of our customers we're much more invested in. Do you know what I mean? So like maybe there are some customers who we've just been so close with that it's gonna affect me differently, right? But I would say more often than not, I've just gotten so used to the process and like I'm not surprised. um But it is difficult. This one is really challenging for me. And in particular, it's what you said is I just have a hard time when people tell you one thing to your face and then do the exact opposite. I'm very confused because I've always been the type of person that wants to be direct, open, honest, even if it hurts. Because I think that's how you build true connections. but I still don't understand when clients or employees will say, I'm so happy here. And we give them all these opportunities to tell us if they're not, and there's no penalty, it's a safe space, but they'll say they're happy. And not that this happens every day, but it's happened. And they're like, but I'm getting another job. And they're like, it's not you, it's me. And it's like, it feels like it's like this dating game that you hear about, right? Like, so anyways. Yes, I agree with you. It can be sort of learned. Yeah, it can. Now, I know that both of us in our businesses as business owners are super passionate about creating amazing client experiences. So I do want to talk about that. What is your perspective on client experience? Like how do you provide a good client experience and why is it so important? It's so important uh because I, outside of having a business, really, I'm a particular customer, right? Whether I go to a hotel, I go to a restaurant, I go to a retail store, I have high standards. And it really comes from my hospitality background. Before I graduated from college, very early, starting in high school, the ninth grade, I started working at a hotel near the home I grew up in. And that became a summer, it was a full school year uh job into the summer. And then when I went to college, I would come home and I would work at this hotel uh in the summer. I would work, I learned different departments from the hotel. That was the hotel management, hospitality. Then I studied in Europe and was trained at the Ritz in Madrid. And I went through this comprehensive uh customer, customer service program. So I was always kind of exposed to customer service, customer experiences and trained by obviously the Ritz, which is a prestigious hotel chain. um And so like for me, I'm always very particular about customer experiences with our business. And so for us, we, you know, we're in such a competitive space where we have our competitors and you know, some of which we know and some we have no idea who they are. are constantly trying to win our business over. So customers that we're working with, they're being approached. So I always tell the team it's so important in our business to provide good customer service and drive results. And those are the two things that matter most to the clients we work with. And those are the two things that lead to really good retention rates in our business. And results are more important than relationship. But, If you don't have a good relationship with a customer and you don't drive results, they are probably not going to give you a second chance. Whereas if you have a very good relationship with your customer, they know you, they talk to you often, they met you in person, you've shared a meal together, you've done something fun together, you've gotten to know them more personally, you have a very good connection with them professionally and personally, you've gotten to know each other, right? They will give you a second chance. They won't fire you, right? So I always say it's really important to build that relationship because we have control over that. We don't always have control over the results. We do our best, but sometimes we're at the mercy of that business, that product or service, their sales team, the pricing, the website. There's so many things that sometimes we can't control that may affect our numbers that at a minimum, let's have a really, really solid relationship with the customer. And that goes back to client experiences, know, how we talk to our clients, how we, you know, ah how often are we seeing them? Are we going above and beyond? Are we, you know, doing things for them that they deem important? So that's why I think client experiences are so important. It's because people have a lot of choices when working with agencies and what will leave a lasting impression is how we make them feel. not only by way of results, but also just in our interactions with them on a daily basis. I also think that it's the most um effective marketing that you can do by just being a decent human to your clients and your employees. It's the most effective marketing because the referrals that come from that is your most affordable and effective marketing technique in my opinion. Exactly. And that's how we built our business over the last eight years. It's all been word of mouth and referral. Now we want to build pipelines through other ways to make it more predictable. And that's what we're thinking about doing right now. But we have absolutely been successful in just getting those referrals through, uh you know, like I said, the network and clients. it's, it's, it's a no brainer, right? it is. It's a no brainer. And let's flip it from clients to employees then because turnover is a pain in the ass for a lot of businesses. So what have you learned about keeping your employees engaged and loyal over the long term? I know you mentioned earlier in our conversation that you give them lots of opportunities to provide feedback. What else? Yeah. I don't have this all figured out. um It is something that is very challenging. And to me is the hardest part of having a business is the human capital side, right? What we're about to talk about um more so than the customer side, I think it's like, you know, I feel like the customer side is easier, not easy, but easier of the two. So yeah, I think with respect to employees, like how do I think about employee retention? I think about employee retention first and foremost when an employee starts, I think of their first 90 days. I think of the onboarding, what that experience is like for them. How do we make a lasting impression on them during those first 90 days? And we think about that, right? So it all starts with, you know, the day they walk in the office, what does the desk look like, right? Does it have? Is it dirty and dusty with old equipment ah or is it pristine with everything perfect? And then once they start, what is that process? Do we have a plan for them? Are we sitting down with them and reviewing that plan? What are the things that we want you to accomplish during your first 30 days and then during your next 30 days and during your next 30 days? What are some of the milestones? uh How are you doing against that? We check in periodically, right? Do you have what you need? So for me, it's a lot about sitting down with uh the employees when they start, setting the right tone, making them feel like they understand uh what the mission is. Like, why do we do what we do? Right? What their role is in helping us. achieve and sort of accomplish the goals that we have because everybody has a role. It doesn't matter what position you have, you have a role. uh And then let's understand what are their personal uh or professional goals and objectives? What is it that they want to get out of this experience? What is a successful outcome for them in 12 months? Both in terms of skills acquired, in terms of uh the work they're doing in terms of the money they're making, like what is it that they have in terms of their personal or professional goals and objectives? And then, hey, okay, now that I understand this, I need to sit down with you to kind of map out what is it gonna take for you to get there? Because it's not a given. You have to make this a reality. I can give you the tools and the support you need, but I also need you to put in the work to get there. So I think it's a lot about just, when you break everything I'm saying down, it's really just about building relationships with people. And what does it take to build relationships with people? Effort. And effort requires you to make the time for them, you to communicate with them, you to give them the opportunity to communicate with you, ah both things that are good and things that not good, right? It can't just always be, is perfect. ah And so we do that by way of, you like I said, there's an onboarding doc, and then once people are onboarded, it's We have all hands meetings where we're very transparent about how the business is doing, looking at the key performance indicators. We update people on the sales pipeline, operational updates. So there's a once a month meeting that they get information about the company and then they can use the rest of the time as they see fit. All questions are fair. ah We also do periodic, like, know, fireside chats where you can send in anonymous questions. Mm-hmm. are not comfortable asking questions and I don't care if it's anonymous or if it's direct from your mouth, I just want the questions. So we'll have them send in anonymously and someone just reads them and we don't know who it is. um And then it's like spending time together, like not working and not talking about work. I'm a big believer in when we're working, we're working, we're focused, we take our job seriously, but then we need to be together and not talk about work. Mm-hmm. Yep. meeting with you and we're not, you know, at work, there's so many other things I want to know about, you know, I want to learn about your travel plans and hobbies and family and friends and, uh, books and other things that are not Google and meta and digital marketing. There's so much more that I want to learn and talk about to kind of take a mental break and give them a mental break. So it's like looking for those opportunities to do that. And we do that. by having lunch together and getting coffees and going for walks and things like that, just to take a break. And then people realize that you care more about them than just the job. Something that I learned that I didn't like a prior leader did with me was every time this individual would ask me to lunch or once meet on the boat for a meeting on a Saturday morning, or let's get lunch or breakfast, I showed up to these things and they had like a notepad and a pen and it was right to business. It was like, I was just so disinterested in someone that was so focused on just business. See me, I'm different. If it's a Saturday, hey, we're not gonna talk business. We're gonna get on this boat and we're gonna go somewhere, not sit on this boat docked. like sit there and have a business meeting. Like I thought I was going out on the boat. Like, and we just sat there downstairs and he's like, I'll make a pot of coffee. And then I'm like, and then he just took, he's like interviewing me. Cause I was a subject matter expert on something and he came into the business as a new COO when he wanted to learn from me. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like, man, you're, you're not like, you're taking this way too seriously. This should be a Monday in office meeting, not Saturday on a sunny day. So the point is, like make time for your team. but do it in a different setting and try to not talk about work once in a Yeah, I love everything that you just said and I think a lot of companies could take a leaf out of your book. Now I want to have a discussion about something that might upset some people but I wouldn't be me if that wasn't the case. So I um... sometimes do some modeling contracts for a company here in my city and they also have a program where they teach young people how to have interview skills, how to have good posture, how to do catwalk, how to you know show up and do a job as a model on site or as a talent extra on site and so I teach those classes um for them. I don't know how I ended up in it. just kind of happens. And I don't usually say no to a lot of things. kind of like, let's go and explore this. Let's go and explore that. But what I've seen, and this also comes down to client experience when I go to a restaurant these days or even to the movies, any sort of client experience being delivered by a younger generation. Now I'm not old by any means, despite my gray hair. I have earned these silvers. Thank you very much. But The technology in the screens, the amount of screen time that I think our younger people are having is really affecting their ability to have conversations, to show up and be a human when you are faced, face to face with another human being. They seem to lose the ability to have a conversation, to look you in the eye, to remember basic manners. uh Customer service is kind of don't even think about that. You may as well go get your own food from the kitchen. um I really see it kind of tanking off. Is that something that you're seeing as well? Yeah, I I consider. uh This is interesting someone that's been in digital marketing for twenty seven years i mean this is not many people have been in this space since ninety ninety eight i mean a lot of people i've seen a lot right. uh I actually think it's very like a lot of tech is evil i think it's good obviously but i think you can do more harm than good in many instances frankly in fact i'm not on social media i'm not on instagram not on facebook. I consider those things to be. subtractive, not additive to my life. I don't speak for other people because I think it brings value to some people. What that value is, I don't know, but it doesn't matter. You do you and I do me. But for me, I knew this because I got off it. And I said, is my life any different? And the answer was, yeah, it's better because I was caught up in sometimes just like doing this thing, this wheel. And I was like, are you kidding me? And I started feeling bad about myself. I'm like, can't allow myself to do that. And I was self-aware enough to know, I can't believe I'm actually starting to do this. I, I'm, it's not me got off it, haven't looked back. haven't been on Facebook in 15, 20 years, whatever. I'm not kidding. However long it's been, it's been a long time. And so I do think this, I think zoom is easy. I think a lot of people are brave behind the computer. I think they're, they're very lazy. uh I think your soft skills are not advancing to the degree they would if you were in person. That's why we have a three day in the office, two day work from home uh culture. m And I think it's very different when you're in front of someone face to face or you're in a room full of people, when you can feel the energy, you can smell people, you can... You you can see the, it's just so different when you're sitting next to people and talking to them versus this, right? I mean, it's so true. And in fact, when I interview candidates and I see someone show up for an interview in a hat, I disqualify them immediately. If you're kind of like in a room where it's like your bed is unmade or something, it says so much about your attention to detail and your effort, right? At a minimum, you might be in boxers or shorts, but at a minimum, put on like a nice button down shirt or a collar shirt. Like I obviously don't know what's below the waist, but I do know at a minimum on the screen, look professional, do your hair, right? Things that, you know, and then people will ask me, well, you know, I want to be my authentic self. And I said, you can be your authentic self, but being your effective self doesn't mean you show up like a slob. And if that is who you are, then you should change that about yourself because that isn't a good thing. Like I'm not going to accept you because you think you should be able to, you know, be a certain way. This is a professional environment, right? Like you have to have a certain etiquette around being a professional, right? In particular, um, when you're interviewing and then I just see people, they don't make a lot of effort. They just show up for an interview. Like it's very easy. It's in their apartment. You know, I, going to an office and interviewing is different than sitting there and just, who knows? They were watching a movie before and they just showed up. Let me turn on, I'm a minute, you know, before my interview starts, right? Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it's nice to have a conversation with someone who has as just as high standards as I do, especially this is also going to upset some people, not sorry. Coming from a different culture, like I'm from Africa originally, and so there's a very British kind of culture that underpins that thanks to colonization. But Australians have a very laid back she'll be right, mate, kind of culture. And then there's me who went to an all girls boarding school for my entire, you know, growing up from the age of like nine, I was at a boarding school and you have to be up by this time and you make your bed and then you attend cross country and you do forced athletics and you, you know, do all these classes. You don't go to the toilet during class um and you don't speak unless spoken to kind of thing. make, you know, it's this, I didn't like it. I was bullied. um But looking back, it gave me such a strong foundation. And then I've, you know, I've got friends here, you know, my kids, friends, you walk into their room, the bed hasn't been made for days. There's clothes all over the floor. The house is a mess. They don't do their hair or their makeup or whatever. And look, I'm not a big fan of doing makeup either. Like I don't do it unless I have to. But that's more because of self care, you know. aging skin, all that sort of stuff. But there is a time and a place and that's standard. And I think there really is a base for that. And there's a book by a general, probably, it's called Make Your Bed or something like that. You heard of it? his address where he says, if you do anything, just make your bed, right? Like if you're going to do anything, do that, right? Nothing more for the day, just at least have made your bed when you come home, right?% exactly. And it to me, makes so much sense. But I've had conversations with people here about this very thing and they're like, well, that makes no sense. I'm like, how doesn't it you've at least achieved one thing for the day. And that just sets me on a upward trajectory from there. Like I've already done one thing that not I don't necessarily want to do. But I've now made it a habit and habits build on each other. Right. um So I think it's such an interesting perspective and uh I am worried about the younger generations coming behind us. I couldn't agree with you more. I too was educated not because we had the financial means, but my father was an educator and he prioritized education for myself and my siblings. So we went to the very, very prestigious boarding schools on the East Coast of the United States. And like I said, we were on financial aid. My dad taught at an all girls boarding school in Wellesley, Massachusetts, and my sister went there and I went to this private school. So, you know, people that were there were from all parts of the world and, you know, children's of Kings and CEOs and all of this stuff. And like you, when I look back on that, I consider it to be the best experience educationally of my life. Like, The meals, sitting at a round table with the headmaster, ringing the bell, saying a prayer. Everybody needed to serve the table. Rotation every week or every day someone else served. You had the athletics every season. You needed to play a sport from 2.30 to 5.30. The um diversity, like, but it was strict, right? Very strict boarding school, right? But you know what? Like, I would wear a coat and tie every day. And there's something about that and I'm more traditional. So it's not that I want to be this like, but I feel and for my children, they're going to get that same sort of upbringing where they're going to have those traditional values that by the way, no matter what happens in this world, AI and all this, you still need those skills. Like you still need the ability to communicate, the ability to build relationships. to earn people's trust. Those are to me, some of the most important skill sets that you need. And I see this with AI now, by the way, which is kind of off topic, but I even said this to my team who started abusing the use of AI, which we embrace and we are not resisting it. We're embracing it and we're adding it to our set of tools because I think it's very helpful. but I would get these emails from my own staff to me or I'd see it to clients and I'd say, hey, like this email, like I've known you for three years. You don't have this range of vocabulary. It sounds so formal. Like this wasn't you. Like we have to not forget to have authenticity when it comes to building relationships. The last thing you want someone to think is that you didn't come up with any of this content, right? Like you have to be able to speak for yourself and that's the fear I have is it's helpful, but man, when you have to craft your own email or you have to think for yourself, critical thinking is something that could be lost in all of this advancement of technology, which by the way is here to stay and is only gonna get better. I'm not gonna dispute that, but I do fear that it's making us sort of not think for ourselves because now we can just go and put some inputs in. Mm-hmm. I couldn't agree more. The future is going to be very, very interesting. We shall see what happens and adapt accordingly, I suppose. Now, what's one leadership lesson that you learned the hard way but that you believe has been essential to your success? I would say... um You know, this is something that I have. There's a few things, but the one that I'll talk about or just say is really just. You can't do too much empathy. Yeah, I think. Um, you know, it's not something that I think I had enough of, you know, uh, as a leader. I mean, I was empathetic or understanding, but in, many cases, not enough, right? I would always default to a, well, you know, I, you know, I was this way and I dealt with this and, sometimes, um, it doesn't really matter what your experience was or how you were. Mm-hmm. think what matters is really talking to that individual. Everybody's bespoke. Everybody's a little different. Everybody has a different thing that they care about and that matters to them. And so I think just having more empathy as a leader is something that I've been much more aware of and they become better at because leadership to me is something that has evolved. You know, I've gotten better because I've worked for people that I liked and worked for people that I didn't like. And through those experience, I learned a lot. Just being a leader of my own business, I've learned a lot. I've done some good things and I've done some not so good things. So I evolved and I think I've gotten better. And that's what's interesting to me about leadership is I don't think you peak. I think you're just hopefully going to get better and better through the different experiences, right? Because I don't consider myself to be the best leader. I think I have had some success there, but I've also not done some things well. So I think for me, it's really around how important having empathy for the team is. Mm. really like there are different levels to having empathy. a lot of us have empathy, but some are much more empathetic than others, right? So I think that's one thing for me that I've learned that's really important as you're running a business and people are sort of working for you is just making sure that you have a lot of empathy. Yeah, I agree. And let's have a bit of fun, Borja. What is something that not many people know about you on a personal level that you're willing to share with us today? my God, what do they not know about me? A lot uh of people don't know much about my personal life, so it could be really anything. um I mean, I would just say it goes back to my upbringing, sort of what I talked about before. uh You know, my parents were two hardworking people, didn't make a lot of money, but didn't complain about that. They just worked and put food on the table for the four of us and did a lot with very little. And I never felt like we uh lacked for anything. You know, we had a home, we had food, we had great parents, strict parents, but very good parents. So I think For me, my upbringing was very normal uh as far as I'm concerned. Yes, my parents fought and they threatened divorce even, but they never divorced. They were always gonna be together to this day. um just like growing up in that type of environment was definitely very valuable to me because I really firsthand experienced two working parents who had tough jobs and really comparatively speaking, I know it's a different time, so it's kind apples and oranges, but for the amount of work they did, I look back and I'm like, God, they didn't make a lot of money. And yet for whatever reason, I don't feel like they ever complained. They just did what they needed to do and they provided for us. And so that instilled a lot of work ethic for me growing up. All of us got jobs the moment we were legally allowed to work. we were working jobs, you know, and I worked two jobs, right? I opened a health club and then when that closed at 2.30 PM, at 3.30 I started my shift at the restaurant till 10 PM. And that was like a big thing for me that people probably didn't know or some people don't know is just like a lot of that upbringing really was important in terms of where I am today. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Borja it's been such an amazing conversation, before we leave each other today, we do have a tradition on this podcast called The Book Drop, and we want to know what book has impacted you either personally or professionally. Yeah, there is a book uh that I read uh called Mindset by author was Carol Dweck. uh You know, we talk about mindset a lot, right? So you obviously can sort of gather what this book was about, but it talks a lot about fixed versus growth mindset and how important it is to have a growth mindset. And it's a lot of the stuff that we spent the last 35, 40 minutes talking about when it comes to business, whether you're an entrepreneur or an individual contributor or a manager, you don't have to be a business owner. This is applicable across the board, but it's just that idea of how your mindset really dictates a lot of your ability to ascend professionally, right? And personally. Right? Cause this applies to not just a business setting, but your mindset as you think of your personal life, it's very applicable. So it's just like fixed versus growth mindset. I tend to, you know, uh sort of be attracted to people who have more of a growth mindset. Right? They recognize that we're always learning. We're always students, right? uh Feedback is really important. Taking feedback, not only listening and taking feedback, but then what are you doing with that feedback? Are you just sort of saying, thank you for telling me that, and then nothing changes? Or do you actually put that into effect? Right? So yeah, there's some cool strategies in there. It's less sort of theoretical and more practical, but yeah, that's kind of the premise of it. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time today. For those of you who are looking to connect with Borja, I will put all of his links in the show notes. And if you're needing digital advertising, you know now where to go. Thanks for having me on.