NAR Lost - Now What?

Ready to explore a seismic shift in the real estate landscape and the ripple effects that are poised to transform the home inspection industry? Strap in as we unpack the recent $1.8 billion judgement that rocked the National Association of Realtors and the potential for this major shake-up to create untapped opportunities for home inspectors. The verdict is still out, but as the dust settles, we're set to explore how home inspectors could become the first point of contact for potential buyers.

We're going beyond the courtroom drama, diving headfirst into the future of home inspections and marketing. Change is afoot, and with the rise of online services and mandatory home inspection laws, the industry is in for quite a ride. We're mapping out the strategies to navigate this new landscape, highlighting the importance of a digital presence that packs a punch and brand recognition that sets you miles ahead of the competition.

Join us as we open the door to a whole new world of possibilities for home inspectors. Buckle up, because this is one ride you won't want to miss!

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*The views and opinions expressed in this podcast, and the guests on it, do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Inspector Toolbelt and its associates.

Transcript

Ian R: Welcome back to Inspector Toolbelt Talk and we have on again Beon. Beon wild times out there right now with what’s going on.

Beon DeNood
I tie you know, sometimes you feel like nothing’s happening and other times it’s like you can’t get enough of all the headlines coming out of the real estate industry. Oh,

Ian R: I know. I mean, just was it a week or two ago we had Nick Gromicko and Nathan on to do that whole big blow-up in the home inspection industry with report host and Spectora and comments and that’s still ongoing. Right. But now we had a previous podcast about the lawsuit against NAR and I have to say I did not think they would lose or lose that quickly, and they lost and they lost fast according to this jury. So if we’re listening to this we’ve probably either talked about it but if you haven’t talked about it or thought about it, you really should because this is going to one way or another shake up not only the real estate industry but our industry NAR National Association of Realtors and anywhere I believe it was the other company they lost too right?

Beon DeNood: Well no, Anywhere and RE/MAX were the two that settled.

Ian R: Two that settled Okay.

Beon DeNood: Yeah, so they’re out of this judgment but there’s a bunch. Yeah, NAR and a few others.

Ian R: But NAR is the one that we care about.

Beon DeNood: That’s the big dog. Yeah.

Ian R: Yeah. National Association of Realtors and man $1.8 billion dollars.

Beon DeNood: Right.

Ian R: As Nick Gromicko said, there are 1000 million in a billion.

Beon DeNood: Yeah, and I guess under antitrust law, which I wasn’t familiar with when there’s a judgment, it’s automatically like a 3x on the judgment amount. So really, I guess it’s like, five, almost five points is it over $5.3 billion. I mean, that’s, that’s crazy money right there.

Ian R: So that’s over 5000 million dollars. So if you had a million dollars’ time to times that by 5000, that’s what they have to pay out. So the reason we’re having this podcast and talking about it is, first of all, we do want to make known, this is a long process. So they lost in front of a jury. So now this has to go to a judge who has to pass a verdict that is in the how do they put it in the flavor of what the jury has already decided but then they’re going to appeal it, obviously and depending on how it goes, they can appeal all or part of it. A couple of times, if not more, I’m not a judge, or I’m not an attorney. This is what’s called a Sherman Antitrust Act lawsuit. So it’s a little bit different than going to your local court. So from what we understand, we start to go through the appeals process and then there’s the executable part of that. So if you’re going to make a company pay five points, whatever billion dollars, the actual amount turned out to be, that takes work, you’re going to have to have teams of people ensuring that the money is transferred properly, how it’s transferred tax implications, we’re looking at years, probably not 10 years, in my opinion, but we’re looking at least a couple of years but Beon, man, what’s this going to mean for us as home inspectors? What do you think?

Beon DeNood: Yeah, man, I don’t know. I saw there was some chatter on the InterNACHI-like boards about those guys, kind of spitballing about what’s going to happen. I think most are. Well, let me back up a little bit quickly and say that even asking Realtors what’s going to happen? Seems like the chatter there is like, no biggie. We’re going to fight this blah, blah, blah. So you know, I don’t know, it’s probably a form of denial. I guess it’s okay. You know, so don’t freak out yet. For Home Inspectors, I don’t know, obviously, if the buyer’s agent role diminishes or disappears, that does impact home inspectors, quite a bit, potentially but it may also create some new opportunities for home inspectors that haven’t existed in the market yet.

Ian R: Yeah, I agree. I think there’s going to be opportunities and changes and we need to be ready for it. So I have a lot of real estate agent friends. Actually, one of my friends ran one of the largest teams in all of New York State and he told me some of his numbers recently, and like, holy cow, he’s well known and his opinion is the buyer agents going away. It’s interesting. I was talking to other agents. I know and they’re saying that what you just said Beon. Oh, no big deal. It’s, it’s fine. Some of them didn’t even know the case was happening. Because if you look at the I’m going to call it propaganda from the real estate brokerages and stuff that the way they flavor it is like, oh, yeah, they’re saying this and this and this, but the actual facts are no, they’re attacking the MLS. They’re like, Oh, they just want us to change our agreement is what they commonly say. And most of what I’ve seen, oh, they just want us to change our agreements. We already did that. So we’ll be fine no matter what happens. But if you look at the lawsuit, they’re attacking the MLS, and they’re trying to actually discontinue the buyer agent being paid from the Commission, which effectively eliminates a buyer’s agent. So it’s more than a metaphoric one of the agents I was talking to she’s one of the top agents in our area. She’s usually in the top three, and that’s what she said she’s like, the information we’re getting is very different. And like, yeah, it’s a big deal if you don’t have a buyer’s commission.

Beon DeNood: Now, of course, I mean it so like, traditionally that was paid from the seller’s agent passed on, you know, passed on to the buyer’s agents. So they get whatever I think 6% is usually the number, right? And then they would do a 5050, split 3% 3% and everybody goes their way. Now, if that is not happening anymore, I guess you a buyer could opt to hire an agent if they really want one but in the current market, they’re going to have to say, Okay, well, where’s my 3%? And the buyer is going to go like, You’re what? Cause, I mean, for foot buyers, like I think we’ve mentioned in our last episode, they are under pressure already, they like paying through the roof to buy a house. So taking on a 3% to have an agent service you I mean, it’s just, it’s just not going to happen. Right?

Ian R: Here’s where I think it’s going to go, I think it’s going to go to a fee-paid buyer’s agent, and it’s not going to be an actual buyer’s agent, I think is going to be I think you use the term before we recorded here, real estate Uber service. There are other countries, and other regions that do this, the buyer’s agent pays per house or per hour to let you into places and they’re insured and bonded to just open a door and make sure you don’t steal stuff. They don’t represent you or anything and then once you go to buy the house, you turn everything over to the attorney, and off you go. Now to be honest with you, the more I’ve thought about it since the last time we talked about this, and since the court case actually finalized, the more I believe in the merit of that because now say I’m a buyer’s, the new version of a buyer’s agent, the buyer’s agent Uber service, and you’re buying a house Beon. I want to see these five houses. So you scheduled all five, you pay me per house, I let you in for 15 minutes a pop, and that’s the time limit or otherwise, there are so many dollars after that. By the time you’re done, you’re like, Okay, I want to buy this house and I’m like, okay, or don’t you know, I there’s no skin off my nose, I have more appointments to go to bring other people to. I think that is the way it probably should be because the attorneys, so New York state attorneys do a lot of the heavy lifting for the buyer. They do a lot of negotiating, they do the actual contract, it’s not a huge leap and other areas do it. There are parts of Australia that I understand have not that exact mode. But something similar in other countries works great for them, they actually make fun of the US because they’re like, so hang on the person you’re supposed to be protecting your client from it’s the person that’s paying you. That’s ridiculous.

Beon DeNood: And I think that’s obviously dual agency is a thing and a lot of states that eliminate the buyer’s agent effectively. Well, you can have the seller’s agent represent both sides of the party but I mean, both parties in the transaction, but yeah, again, how good is that for the consumer? Not so much. Okay, we get kicked around a couple of things. So like for home inspectors, how is this potentially maybe good for home inspectors, because it’s almost like we’re, we’re seeing a whole new role develop in the real estate market. So if you’re a home inspector, and you’re really sharp, you’re looking at the situation, what do you think? How can we dig in?

Ian R: So first of all, it’s going to change who has the initial point of contact for that client. So it’s easy for us and some home inspectors are going to say it’s not easy. Listen, it’s easy for us, we know that most of the real estate industry runs on the buyer’s agent, we mark it as an industry, whether or not you agree with us or not as a whole home inspectors market to real estate agents. Direct-to-consumer has not been a great avenue for a lot of companies, some make it work, and some don’t. So now it changes who has a point of contact. So how I envision it looking is if you want to go see a house, you click on the house, and you click on the open schedule. Either you go to open houses, which I think are going to be more common now. I think there are people who aren’t going to want to pay $50 for 15 minutes for you to let them in. So they’re probably going to have a lot more open houses and they’re going to go to these things. So the initial point of contact is going to be a computer screen, it’s not going to be Hey, let me talk to an agent. He’s going to show me around, he’s going to schmooze me, we’re going to go out to lunch and talk about which house I like best, I’m going to be sitting at a computer screen going click, I’d like to see the house at that point. So open houses are going to be a lot busier but I also think there’s going to be a lot of showing services popping up and the showing services is going to be key, how do we get in front of buyers, there’s not going to be one solid instant contact. So a couple of things I think are going to be important for us as an industry. All those guys out there that have the website that they built in 1998. And it’s still up and they say I work off of agent referrals and this is my life now that’s going to go away because you’re not going to get referrals from listing agents, because that’s already changing too. There are also mandatory home inspection laws going into effect.

Beon DeNood: Right. I saw that like where was Massachusetts they got that draft right now that I saw.

Ian R: They got a draft, and Rhode Island has some stuff stirring. Rumor, California has something stirring.

Beon DeNood: That’s a big one.

Ian R: And at least one province in Canada, but there are other states that are pushing for this legislation as they’re watching this court case unfold. So a lot of that’s going to change. So It’s going to come down to being part of the right services that advertise your Home Inspection Services at the initial point of contact but I think it’s finally going to come to a point where direct-to-consumer marketing is going to be important. Well, so right now it’s important but if you have great SEO, a great website, you know, everything in line online, that’s going to be critical for you, I think those guys are going to do really great because especially in the initial madness of it all falling apart, people are like, I still need a house, I need to find a home inspector. So they’re going to go and ask family members, and friends and go look online like they do any other contractor now. So if you need a flooring guy, you do that, ask friends, and family, and then go online. So we’re going to be searched for like every other contractor now, at least for a good portion of time. Services like, everybody listening, please don’t pitchfork with me. I’m not recommending it necessarily but Angie’s List, home advisor, and with a big, big gulp in my throat, Yelp.

Beon DeNood: Oh goodness

Ian R: Yeah I know, it’s like, it made me sick. I had to hold it down. Oh,

Beon DeNood: There are three guys that just created new threads on the forum when you said that about Yelp.

Ian R: Oh, my goodness, I hate Yelp, Yelp. If you’re listening, I hate you. You go ahead and sue me, I do not like you. But those kinds of services, I don’t think those three companies I’m just talking about that kind of connection services are going to be important as time goes on in the initial year or two. It’s going to be all websites, SEO, social media, that whole thing. So if you’re not on that boat right now, you really need to get on that boat. Really get those listings up, really get your reviews, good looking good, good SEO, because that’s going to be critical.

Beon DeNood: Because it’s all part of, in this case, brand recognition, right? So somebody lands on the web, and they looking for a home in this neighborhood. You want your stuff, your name is there, sort of from the point, the first point, they’re trying to search. So that by the time they get to the point where I need somebody, it’s like, well, this name has been popping up everywhere. Let’s check them out kind of thing.

Ian R: Yeah. and there’s going to be opportunities for that because I think places like Redfin, and Zillow, and all those are going to be where people go now, because the MLS is severely restricted like they’re planning on it might just collapse. Then why wouldn’t we just go to Zillow and Redfin anyway, even though they rely on the MLS, they don’t in a lot of areas like the MLS in my area actually banned Zillow or part of their usage, so it’s not necessarily going to be the end of all multiple listing services and that’s really what a Zillow type company has. So having your ads up on places like that is going to be important. So we’re going to see a lot of low ROI ads, so ads that you can’t measure. So you can measure and that’s something that we talk about a lot but you’re at face next to a house that somebody’s listing, saying, when you need a home inspector, call this guy, that might be the only time that they actually get to see you, and you’re not going to be able to connect directly with them because they’re still looking at a house. So you’re not going to be able to say I got 20 inspections last month, because of my ad on Zillow, we’re going to have to throw a lot of ads out there that we’re not going to be able to measure the return on. So that’s going to be critical marketing, the past clients are also going to be very important. Gone are the days where you’re going to have you know, oh, okay, well, I worked for this family because this agent works for that family. Then she always refers me. Now they’re going to be like, Who’s that guy who’s at home inspector? We used? I don’t know, just go to the internet. We want to be marketing to past clients. So when their family needs a home inspector, oh, yeah, he just emailed me, send them the little calendar to stick on their fridge with our name and company on it. Anything that stays in front of previous clients, because again, in my opinion, it’s going to be internet and referrals from family and friends because there’s no skin in the game for the buyer’s agent at that point. They don’t care who you hire. Their commission is just on opening the door.

Beon DeNood: Right, right. Yeah. So for a home inspector then if I’m thinking like diversification, you know, because we’re always looking to how can we further diversify our business and you mentioned this like showing service, this new thing that’s coming up. Okay, let’s preface this with guys, we talking about the future here. We’re like going, you know, like we said, this is going to take a while but is that a cool spot for a home inspector to like, if he’s showing services start being a thing as a home inspector wouldn’t that be an opportunity? Hey, there’s one part of my business I got the showing service, you get your first foot in the door and if you need the home inspection, we do that kind of deal.

Ian R: Yeah, okay. So everybody, write this down Beon is talking about my big idea, and I thought he didn’t want me to mention that but here’s my big idea. So write this down. I’m going to give this to you for free. So if somebody is going to pay a buyer’s agent to go and just open doors, why can’t we in areas where we have super key access and all that stuff? That’s not hard to get, by the way, if your organization your local real estate Association won’t let you have it actually contact Nick Gromicko. We already said we’re bonded if we’re InterNACHI members, and he can say hey, listen, they’re bonded. You need to push this through. Anyways, if we start showing services, we get to be the first point of contact so hear me out my wild crazy idea. We as a home inspection industry, and I would love to see NACHI do this because they have the infrastructure for it already. Or IREP Nick Gromicko’s thing with that other Association. He started for real estate agents. somebody pays us $50 for 15 minutes, we open the house and show them in. Maybe we point out a couple of things. Hey, that light switch is broken. Hey, look at that foundation wall is bowed. Wow, thank you, we may just have a listing service that just makes appointments for us, and we show up. Now, as that expands, we don’t have to be there as the inspector, we can send our employee with our company shirts and hands them a business card, when you need a home inspection, let us know now who are they hiring some random home inspector they found on the internet, or the company that has showed them 30 houses, maybe even pointed out a thing or two that might have been wrong with a couple of them and save them some money? Oh, my goodness, that sounds amazing. We would be the first point of contact; we would take the place of the agent. So my idea is, if this goes the way that it seems like it’s going we start a showing service as home inspectors, we’re insured, we’re bonded, and in most states and provinces, we’re licensed. We have more than any buyer’s agent. I think most buyer’s agents for a while will hang out and say, Oh, well, you know, I’ll take a couple of dollars here or there. Then they realize that their cars burned out and that they’re just going to get a different career. We, as home inspectors have the advantage because now we don’t need contract negotiation stuff or any of that our job is literally to unlock a door and it’s not a conflict of interest. We’re not doing anything except letting people in. Oh my goodness. So I think personally, if we can make that happen, that would be glorious. I would love to see Nick do that. I think Nick would do a fantastic job but that was my that was my grand idea. My daughter said earlier today just joking around she cracks me up she says sometimes my brain gives me good ideas. Then after she said that, that popped into my head I’m like my brain gave me a good idea. Picture that Beon, you a consumer you type in Oh man, I want to see this house. The showing service that’s on there is all home inspectors go click Home Inspector shows you that house. Now the home inspector to say when you need to see the next house request me. Yep, instead of another homicide. Okay, cool. I’ll make time for you. We’ll make it happen. Now you’re making money to advertise. So you pay your nephew, Joe $20 an hour to drive to houses, you don’t care about making money after insurance and all that stuff. He’s $30 an hour. Maybe you make $80 a day for him showing houses after all your insurance and stuff. Who cares? Joey made you $80 to advertise to every buyer in the neighborhood. Right? So it doesn’t matter how much you make.

Beon DeNood: And because you’re the first point of contact. So usually, like with a buyer’s agent, it would be okay, I’m showing all the houses I’m working really hard. Okay, you want you want this house? All right, let’s get the paperwork started, blah, blah, blah. Then you know, they’re all connected now with, you know, the mortgage companies that they advise and insurers and the attorneys and whatever else you need to be able to close the deal, but it gets it gets to be that now. So isn’t their potential there to you can work out a referral, you know, arrangements to closing attorneys and you know, whoever else you need to be able to not that you are doing that deal, but you’re handing it off, you’re referring saying hey, here you go take care of this guy, they want this house.

Ian R: There is potential for that but I also think there’s potential for problems with that. Personally, I would actually stray away from that, if you want to turn it into a referral service agents get kickbacks. In most state laws, you can’t get kickbacks as a home inspector but this is a different service. Maybe if you started a secondary service with a and you did it under another company name? I don’t know. There’s a lot of details in it that I don’t know yet, but ultimately,

Beon DeNood: There’s opportunity. That’s the bottom line.

Ian R: There’s opportunity. I don’t know of any law in any state that would prohibit that. If somebody said, Ian, can you go let me into this house? If I have permission to let them into that house? I did not perform an inspection. I’m not working under my license. All I did was open the door, we could do it now if we wanted. So all I’m saying is prepare now if it’s this idea or another. Once that’s prepared now we’re going to own the market but I do have a worry about the market. If we don’t do it like Nashi or something like that. Companies like Inspectify I know you’re listening. We can see metrics on who’s listening to our podcast, not specifically but there’s a little bit of a dense circle right around your headquarters there of listeners.

Beon DeNood Hello to all our competitors listening to us.

Ian R: Hi, you know Inspectify is going to capitalize on that, and companies like them, and so the home inspectors will make less money. We’re going to make the 200 and some odd dollars on a full home inspection. The consumers aren’t going to know any better. So we don’t want to commoditize our industry, we want to own it. We want to be there for the clients, we want to be the first point of contact, not some other service. So if we can make that happen. Oh, my goodness, yeah, that would be forgive my term, that would be sexy. That’d be awesome.

Beon DeNood: Talking about Inspectify. I think a few things we mustn’t forget, like two things that come to mind. Their business model is based on entering the market through local MLSs.

Ian R: Oh, did they buy that one? Weren’t they the ones?

Beon DeNood: I don’t know if they bought it,

Ian R: Do they have a partnership with it?

Beon DeNood: Yeah, there’s like close association with MLS. So I mean, they’re kind of, they got a foot in a potentially sinking ship there, you know, they’re which makes uncertainty, not doesn’t mean that they bound to that they can pivot but the other thing I think about their business model, if you take a look at reviews of Inspectify, for the end consumer, the buyers, they give bad reviews, because they don’t have a good experience. I mean, that is where home inspectors can really make a big difference because home inspectors are trained from day one, you start your training, marketing, customer service, it’s all part of it, right? You only succeed in the home inspection business, if you get that down. So you know, by applying all of that, to a new opportunity like this, I’m excited to see what the guys are going to come up with. Maybe you have some tweaks to this idea, or maybe you don’t want to share your idea, because you want to capitalize on it but blast the idea out in front of everybody. I think it’s a good idea to start thinking about it, right, because now’s the time to start planning for something like that, potentially.

Ian R: So for a home inspector, we should plan with number one. It doesn’t hurt in this market, it will benefit us now to get our online presence, upgraded kicking really hard because whether this goes down or not, that’s still going to help us. So it’s not like you lose anything if it doesn’t go down, but if it goes down, you’re going to be glad you have it. It takes months and years to build up. So start now, the other thing is prepared with ideas, how can we adjust to the changing market to be honest with you, the more I think about my idea, the more I think that is gold on a stick. I’m loving it and don’t freak out. This is going to be what a lot of home inspectors have wanted for many years. As a home inspector, that’s a client of ours, we do his website and all this other stuff. He’s always talking about how he hates marketing agents, like a lot of home inspectors do. He’s like, there has to be some way. He emails me all the time. There has to be some way. I’m like, Hey, man, we just got to wait for the opportunity. This is you want to talk about an opportunity. This is it. Now we can bypass everybody and be the point of contact. So prepare now, online presence, get your ideas together, and adjust our business. This is the time to do it.

Beon DeNood: Yeah, yeah, great idea. Now, you mentioned open houses. So I just got one thing I thought of with open houses. Could it be that seller’s agents start doing open houses and that becomes kind of a like you said a really big thing? Where does that leave us?

Ian R: Well, that’s who do open houses now, seller’s agents.

Beon DeNood: Oh, it is? Okay.

Ian R: Yeah. So if they want to have their listing, there will be a measure, I think of sellers’ agents trying to fill that gap, because they’re not going to be happy about this, right, and there’s going to be a lot of fighting to get the last vestiges of what’s left, and that’s going to be listings. So there are a lot of agents, a lot more agents and brokers than there are home inspectors. If this actually happens, if it happens, you will eradicate at least two-thirds of the industry or more. So seller’s agents are going to be desperate to try to fill those voids. So I think they’re going to try to take on the role of Oh, yeah, let me help you along here. I can let you into the house, my system lets you into the house, we can avoid that and they’ll still pass out some business cards, but with the changing laws. I mean, there’s some areas where there’s in some cities where there’s half a dozen lawsuits going on right now of people against agents for encouraging their clients to skip the home inspection. There are lawsuits going on all across the US, I don’t know about Canada, but all across the US. So sellers’ agents are going to be nervous about doing that to the good ones that are left. So I think that will be a measure of that but ultimately, they’re going to pull back and say, Okay, I’m one of the last agents that are left, I have my listings, I’m really not going to risk this and that’s going to be our opportunity, and the chaos will thrive.

Beon DeNood: Yeah, it’s actually, it is brilliant because one of the arguments that home inspectors always used is like, you can’t you can’t replace the home inspector, you know, you can’t digitize the home inspection process. There are some platforms that are trying but it’s almost laughable and when it comes to a buyer, no matter how good the virtual tour is, no matter how good the pictures are you’re buying a house, you want to put boots on the ground, you want to be there and take a look at it. So those two steps will still have to happen and yeah, home inspectors tend, to gain from it. So ultimately, I guess where we can end with it is we don’t know what the future holds exactly but the future of home inspectors, if we are open to opportunities that are present, our future looks pretty secure.

Ian R: Yep. So I’m giving it a year or two, up to five. I don’t think it’ll take that long. I think it’ll probably take another six to eight months to go through the appeals and stuff like that, guessing. I’m not a law expert so I’m just guessing, especially how fast this one went down. It went down quickly and then the repercussions after that. I’m thinking two years and it’ll all start going down. I do think this will also reduce the cost of homes, finally. Part of the lawsuit was price fixing. Let’s be honest, if you have two people that are saying, hey, if the house costs more, we make more because we make a percentage. Yeah, that’s basically the definition of antitrust. So price fix or price fixing rather than the antitrust. So I think it will bring down the prices of houses. That will ultimately help us as home inspectors. There’ll be more inventory.

Beon DeNood: It’s exciting. I mean, nothing’s changed for so many years. And here’s a big change coming. I’m sure it won’t be a case of us, you know, one of these days, in the future being like, hey, Ian, remember back in the year 2023. We had this podcast, we thought this was going to happen.

Ian R: Is that your old man’s voice? What was that?

Beon DeNood: I was trying to imitate your old man. No, no. Yeah, but you know, it’s not going to take that long, but it will be interesting. Interesting to revisit this episode and see how it panned out but stay tuned because there’s some stuff happening here that nobody saw. So, well there may be some who saw it coming, but most were kind of in denial, so it’s interesting to see it happen.

Ian R: Hey man, I was drinking the Kool-Aid too everyone was like, Nah, you can’t take down NAR. I’m looking at the info and I’m like, yeah, it’s kind of pretty hard to take down NAR. I can’t see this happening. All of a sudden, they’re like, yeah NAR’s done, like, whoa, whoa, that’s nuts.

Beon DeNood
Yeah, that is really interesting. What was interesting too, was to see that, yeah, right when it was announced even Zillow stock price to come mega-hit, right? I mean, I think they’ll probably come out okay, in the end, but yeah, there’s a lot of uncertainty as to how it’s all going to play out.

Ian R: Well, Beon as always, thank you very much for being on and we’ll be watching this closely. Thank you.

Beon DeNood: Yeah. Sounds good. Thanks, Ian, take care man.

Outro: On behalf of myself, Ian, and the entire ITB team, thank you for listening to this episode of Inspector Toolbelt Talk. We also love hearing your feedback, so please drop us a line at info@inspectortoolbelt.com.

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*The views and opinions expressed in this podcast, and the guests on it, do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Inspector Toolbelt and its associates.