S3E3 - Meet the Team: Catrin Wyn Williams

In this episode, we’re joined by Catrin Wyn Williams, an Associate in our Financial and Professional Risks team and a member of our Leeds office.

Catrin shares her journey from studying English and Philosophy at Queen's University Belfast to building a career in insurance law, including valuable secondments with both Aon and Hiscox. She discusses why she made the move from defendant work to representing policyholders, the lessons she has learned from working closely with brokers and insurers, and the importance of tailoring advice to the needs of different clients.

Away from the office, Catrin reflects on her Welsh roots, growing up speaking Welsh as her first language, her training as a classical mezzo-soprano, and the surprising parallels between performing on stage and presenting legal arguments.

Transcript

Dru Corfield 0:03

Hello and welcome to a new podcast series hosted by Fenchurch Law. The series aims to introduce every member of our offices in a short informal podcast. Stay, I'm delighted to be joined by Ketheran Wynne Williams, who joined Fenchurch Law in 2022. Kat is an associate working within the financial and professional risks team and is based in our leads office. Very warm welcome, Kat.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Thanks, Drew.

Dru Corfield 0:25

So before we dive into the pod, as always, we're going to start with some quick fire questions. So question one: call or text?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Call.

Dru Corfield 0:34

City life or countryside?

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Countryside.

Dru Corfield 0:37

Oh god, it's quick. Anglesey or Pembrokeshire?

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Anglesey.

Dru Corfield 0:42

Wreckin' Beacons or Snowdonia?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

They're not known as that anymore, but I'd say Arari, which is Snowdonia, formerly known as.

Dru Corfield 0:48

That's such a flex. It's great to have you on the podcast. Coming live from Yorkshire, the pods gone national. DJ Mike and I have made the journey up to the Leeds office, and it's great to be here and great to chat to you. So I'd like to start with your background as you've done some very interesting things prior to Fenchurch. So what was the journey like from your studies to joining the firm?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Oh, by studies you mean Yeah, that's your undergrad. Oh, from my undergrad. So I read English and philosophy at Belfast in Queen's University. I graduated in 2012. Clearly had no idea what I wanted to do having read the English and philosophy, so went on to travel for about eight months, mainly around Southeast Asia. And then realised that I had to decide what to do and to finally become an adult. So I started thinking about maybe transferable skills and what I could do in terms of a professional career. And law seemed to fit quite nicely. And so I obviously realized it was very competitive. So I thought it would help to get some solid experience behind me. So I was very lucky to get a job with Alan and Overy when they opened their Belfast office. And I worked between there and the London office. And after that, I decided to do the GDL. And it's a very different system over in Northern Ireland. So you can't do the GD.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Sorry to interrupt. What were you doing at ANO? What kind of thing were you doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

No, it was a non-legal position. And I sat in the document production team. So we were dealing with lots of very kind of big contracts or big documents. And we'd either help out with the formatting or we'd do what is known as health checks. So the kind of metadata sitting behind all the documents, making sure that that all worked.

Dru Corfield 2:45

Nice practical practical stuff. Sorry, I interrupted you. The GDL in you were about to talk about the GDL in Belfast.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, we they they don't offer it over there, so I moved back back to the homeland.

Dru Corfield 2:56

By the way, for the benefit of the tape, Kat is obviously Welsh.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Obviously. Well, I actually did it in Chester, but I did the GDL there and then moved to Manchester, did the LPC with the LLM, and was really lucky to meet two lovely people at a conference who happened to be partners at the firm that I eventually trained at and qualified. Formerly BLM, now it's Clyde and Co. And I think a few months into qualifying, I realised that maybe catastrophic injury wasn't quite for me, so that's what I qualified into. Stressful. And I made the jump. I worked for a defendant sort of firm and clearly saw the light, and I'm now working for policyholders.

Dru Corfield 3:40

So Helen, you came over to was Fenchurch only a few months your transition to Fenchurch, was that a few months after you qualified?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

It was about eight m eight months after I qualified, yeah.

Dru Corfield 3:50

Yeah, because you I think you and I joined a very similar time.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Yeah, we did.

Dru Corfield 3:54

Because I was September 22, and I think That would have been July 22.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Oh, there we go.

Dru Corfield 4:00

Thanks, Kat. That's that's that's very, very interesting. And you sort of you obviously didn't always think that you'd have a in the back of your mind there wasn't always a legal career, but I think it sounds similar to me in that would you say it was you looked at sort of what you were kind of good at and realized that those that skill was most applicable to law. So you're like, I've never really thought about this. I'm sort of now talking about myself, but I've never really thought about it, but it does seem to be something I should really consider. Is that sort of how you came to law?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, I just tried to be quite pragmatic after I graduated from Queens, and I thought, you know, rather than looking at a particular discipline or subject, what can I do? And that has to be based in sort of skills and disciplines, and law just sort of fit very squarely with those. And I knew there was a whole range of areas of law and types of law for him that you could work for. My dad is a lawyer, so and actually I resisted law very much. Oh yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, uh so he did his his higher rights, and it's also the reason why I sort of moved away from that area of Wales because I didn't really want to sort of be in his shadow. Yeah, I understand that. Be a little more independent, yeah. Make it on my own.

Dru Corfield 5:20

Oh, yeah, look at look at you now, defending the defending policyholders in the mighty leads. So you've certainly done that. And Kat, you're back. Woohoo. Yeah, because for the benefit of the tape, Kat was on at Aeon for ages, six months?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah, well, six uh just over six months, I think.

Dru Corfield 5:36

Yeah, so can we talk about that? So, what team were you in? And the second question was how long were you there? But luckily we've covered that. So what what what team were you in and what were you doing?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I sat in TRT, which is the technical referral team, and it was probably one of the best experiences that I had in terms of how much I learned, the people that I met, the confidence that I gained, and just the exposure really to what brokers do. But ultimately, the TRT are fed any class of insurance issue, and it's referred to them, they take a look, give a view on the policy wording, and that can be following a decliniche, or say somebody s just needs a bit of guidance in terms of the policy wording. So it was very, very interesting.

Dru Corfield 6:30

And what did so you say that you learned loads? So, what did you learn there that sort of can that you've carried over to your work as an associate at Fen Church Law?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Quite a lot. So, firstly, the pace of work is very different, things move far quicker in a in a broker's world. You're spinning more plates, and I had I got a real appreciation for you know how narrow the scope is in terms of the work we do here at Fenchurch. Whereas at Aon, you know, you could be dealing with any class of insurance. So in in one day I could be looking at I don't know, a pr a property policy, and then the following day I would be looking at a a project policy, for example. And you could be dealing with with very, very different types of policy holder. And one of the biggest lessons for me was pitching and communicating your message or your advice in a way that will really land with that particular policy holder. So you can't be seen as giving legal advice firstly, because that's not the role. So there was a shift in terms of that, but then also you could be dealing with uh sort of an SME, or you could be dealing with a in-house counsel of a very big company, and the way you speak and the way you relay your advice has to be different, obviously. Absolutely, and that is something that I've definitely taken away with me, or I'd like to think so. Anybody reading my advice is but yeah, that I think that that was a very big uh learning curve.

Dru Corfield 8:12

That's yeah, well, it makes sense. I think it's a core skill because it makes I think it really helps with people feeling understood if it's pitched to them in in the right tone. And that's of course not to say that SMEs aren't won't be able to understand like technical advice, but it's just understanding how they want to hear it and not necessarily being interested in a in a really loads of legal jargon or not not legal jargon.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

No, not legally not legal jargon. The commercial considerations are going to be vastly different as well. So the appetite of, for example, a single consumer policy holder versus somebody at an SME versus somebody in a big international company, they're going to be very different. And so it's appreciating that as well. And that was another lesson that I took away was really trying to understand who you're dealing with, what their appetites are, what their limitations are.

Dru Corfield 9:05

So more commercial thinking, really. Yeah. Thinking in a more commercial way.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, yeah.

Dru Corfield 9:12

Interesting. Well, I'm I'm I'm jelly. Uh so what's uh not to say that I don't really enjoy my job, oops. So what's a piece of advice you'd give to someone considering a second apart from it sounds like definitely do it?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

I mean, definitely do it. Absolutely. I mean, this is the second second that I've done. I I did one with Hiscox Insurance and I learned a lot there as well. But I suppose it is to go in with a totally open mind and just try and take in absolutely everything that the second has to offer, whether that's some social event afterwards and you may meet people, or it's trying to get your hands in on almost every single case or to listen in on calls, all of that in the round, you you just you come away with a great understanding as to how that organization, business, whatever.

Dru Corfield 10:07

Industry almost, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah, absolutely.

Dru Corfield 10:08

Was that in um well, shout out to Aeon for having you? Was that in was that in Leeds? Yeah, it was, yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay, so moving away from work, but thanks, Kat. That's I mean, I always enjoy these chats because, you know, for example, I didn't know everything about your stories and stuff, and hearing about yours is a comment. We've talked about it, but I really enjoy hosting these pods because you always kind of have these conversations and feel like you learned something from your esteemed and lovely colleagues. But moving on to more important matters, which is that astute listeners will have realized that you're Welsh from the quick fire questions. You grew up and completed your education in Wales, which is crazy because your first language is Welsh. Am I right in saying that?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

It is, yeah. And I did my G CSEs and most of my A levels in Welsh.

Dru Corfield 10:51

Yeah, that's my favourite thing about the Welsh, which is quite they're all so patriotic, so I'm expecting.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, we we we are, yes. But it has to be, and this is a generalization, but I have found it to be true. It's the musicality. You can be in a stadium, you can be in a bar, you can be away on a hen. And if you get a group of Welsh people together, they will sing, most likely harmonise at the drop of a hat, and it is just beautiful, it really is quite special.

Dru Corfield 11:25

That's such a such a lovely thing, and it also neatly brings me on to my next question, which is that so you trained as a mezzosoprano. So, firstly, what on earth does that mean? But secondly, do you find any parallels between performing and performing on the one hand and presenting legal arguments on the other?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

That's a great question. Trained as a mezzo soprano.

Dru Corfield 11:49

Okay, so mezzo, I think I said mezzo, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

That's okay, that's absolutely fine. Yeah, I started from the age of 11 with what we call sort of serious singing lessons. I'd been competing in A sedvodee, and if you're Welsh, you'll know. And if you are familiar with Terry Pratchett's work, you'll know what Acevodae are. But I was competing from the age of about five or six, I think. And I was singing, reciting. But at 11, my mum got me in with a wonderful vocal coach, and she started building my voice up. And sort of by the time I was 17, 18, she was introducing me to maybe some of the lighter arias and leaders and things like that. So it was great fun to have to deal with all the different languages and the pronunciation.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Is this opera singing?

Dru Corfield 12:39

What kind of singing? Classical.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Classical, classical, yeah. It would I would have been too young to do pure opera because you need to be very, very developed, and it takes years and years to become an opera singer. I mean, you would need at least 10 years from the point of view you need to really, really go down that route. But yes, so I I continued, I did my grade eight singing, which I know you've done as well, interestingly. But yeah, and then I went on, I was really lucky to get some experience in performing. So I performed a few times in the Wales Millennium Centre, which was incredible. And I ended up moving to London when I was about 18, 19, because it's the only thing I wanted to do was sing, it was the only the only thing I enjoyed. Uh so I was being a little bit rebellious, and yeah, I spent three years there. I got a great vocal coach, he was wonderful. Again, I got some really I was really lucky with experiences, but then that's when I turned to sort of go to uni and thought I should maybe grow up a little bit.

Dru Corfield 13:44

So no, no, no, no, no. I mean, what what upsets me is that you I've never heard you come to karaoke because I'm absolutely not. Yeah, well, I want to hear. I mean, you trained and this sounds very professional. Like you sound like you've got the voice of an angel. Why haven't we heard you at karaoke? We have to put up with Toby singing bloody hero by Rick Lazy Us every time. Why, Kat, why haven't you come and done some singing at karaoke?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Well, probably just because that very reason. I mean, everybody wants to hear Toby, so to be able to do it. No, we don't.

Dru Corfield 14:15

I can promise you, we really don't. It's horrid.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

But yeah, to follow up on the second question, I suppose it's all about practice and preparation. If you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail. Knowing your material inside out, knowing your subject is key. The more familiar you are with your material, the more fluid, the more natural you're going to be. So I think that would be the biggest thing.

Dru Corfield 14:44

That's a great, yeah, it's a that's a great, great observation. I can so see how that that that rings true. Finally, need to ask about your your baby, your Iggy.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yes.

Dru Corfield 14:56

So for the benefit of the tape, can you tell the listeners who Iggy is?

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Iggy is my Jack Russell. That's right. She's a dog, and yes, she is my baby. But she is five, she is so spoiled.

Dru Corfield 15:12

By who, I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

By me and my other half, and to the point where my own mother introduces Iggy as her other grandchild. Because she knows she's not getting human grandchildren.

Dru Corfield 15:27

That's that's brilliant. So I've got a really, really horrible question to end with because it's a choice. I've just put here your basically your two great passions. It says Iggy or Wales. Your face for the better for the listeners, Kat's face just dropped.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

I can't.

Dru Corfield 15:44

Yeah, I didn't. Do you know what I'm not gonna push you because it's a really, really horrible question.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Oh my god. Horrible question, Kat.

Dru Corfield 15:50

And we've had such a great time. It's a really horrible I do know what I take it back, and I and I'm not gonna end with that question. We'll uh we'll just end. We'll just end.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Leave it.

Dru Corfield 15:59

We'll leave it at that. Kat, this has been this has been really great fun, and thanks for having me and DJ Mike in Leeds.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yeah, thank you both. It was great to see you.

Dru Corfield 16:07

Yeah, well, no, thank you for for your wonderful and uh conversation and candid answers, and um, yeah, we'll see you whenever you're next down.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

See you then.