American Cults

Author Jim Willis joins the show to talk about his book American Cults. We talk about how people get wrapped up in a cult. Jim tells us about some of the most famous cults. We discuss modern day cults and finish with how to avoid or help someone who's involved with a cult.

Jim's Website: https://www.jimwillis.net/

Show Website: https://whatifpod.com/

Transcript

American Cults
[00:00:00] Jeremiah: Hello, my fellow Terrestrials coming to you from an RV deep in the Carolina Mountains. Welcome to the What If They're Wrong podcast. The podcast 
that wants 
you to question everything. Your reality is about to be shattered.
Hello and welcome to the What If the Wrong podcast, the podcast that wants you to question everything. I'm joined today by author Jim Willis, and we're gonna be talking about his book, American Cults. And, uh, I'm into true crime. I love true crime stuff. So I look into this stuff myself and um, we'll talk about American cults and what goes into 'em, why people get sucked into it, and.
You know, some of the nuances with cults and um, I just wanted to say right off the bat that there are cults all over the world, but there is a lot that happen in America. So we're gonna focus on America today. Um, if you want to look into cults around the world, uh, feel free to do so. Uh, cuz there are some interesting ones.
So introduce some now. Hello Jim. 
[00:01:26] Jim: Hi Jeremiah. How are you doing? Good to be with you again. 
[00:01:29] Jeremiah: I'm good. Thanks for coming back on the show. Talking about something completely different. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's for sure. But I like to mix it up on my show. So, like I said, I'm really into like the true crime stuff.
I listen to it on my free time and so the cult stuff just goes into it. But I also think there is some type of supernatural thing involved with it cuz a lot of cults seem to be. Geared towards the religious aspect, and then there's also like, you know, your satanic cults and stuff like that. So what, um, what do you view as like a cult compared to like a 
[00:02:04] Jim: religion?
Well, it's a, it, it's a tough line to draw sometimes. Um, I, I, I've been a, a pastor of a Christian Church before I retired, before I, I stopped active ministry and moved out here to the woods. Um, I've been involved in, in churches for 50 years, well, my, actually 70, 77 years now, that's how old I am. And a lot of cults have broken off.
From religions, uh, Christianity is known, is known for it. Uh, as a matter of fact, at the very beginning, uh, Christianity was considered a cult. It, uh, even theologians today, when they talk about early Christianity, talk about, uh, not being a separate religion, but a, uh, a, a, a cult that was the follower of a cult leader.
And they refer to Jesus Christ as the leader, um, Jesus of Nazareth. And they, they talked to him. They, they talked to him about a, a, a cult that was embedded in Judaism for a long time. And it was, uh, it became a cult known as a cult to the Roman Empire. And it wasn't until 300 years passed before the Roman Empire recognized Christianity and elevated it from cult status to, uh, religion status.
Uh, theologians like to have a, um, . Uh, saying that they, that they like to use sometimes that cult plus time equals religion, and that's the case. But you're right. Um, there seems to be, I I, I don't know if we can actually call it a, um, a spiritual component, but I, I, I think that's a pretty good way of looking at it.
Uh, because something happens when people get together. People do things in groups that they might never do by themselves. Uh, a classic example of, of that, it might, might be that the fact that cults seem to be embedded in our DNA here in America when the, when read history books about the first, um, people who sent, who, who came to America.
And we talk about the Puritans, for instance, up in New England, and we talk about the history books, like to talk about them as being a, a fire seeing group who were. Came over here to America for religious freedom because they were being somehow persecuted and, and they wanted to build a, in, in their words, a shining city on a hill.
What the history books don't tell us so often is that these early puritans, um, back in the old country, they were considered a cult. They were called separatists, and they didn't come here of their own free will. Basically, they were kicked out, and when they came over here, we say, well, at least they obtained their freedom.
But as soon as they settled in New England and started building, uh, these great cities that are now called Boston and you know, places like that, all of a sudden their cult status just bloomed. They started saying, my way or the highway, there's only one way to believe. And they began to burn women at the stake for, uh, just because maybe they were single or like to take walk in the woods.
They called them witches and the Salem witch trials were tick, took place. Uh, the Quakers had a different way of looking at it, so they kicked the Quakers out shakers the same way. They kicked those people out and they began to demonstrate all of these. Cult-like activities. These what, what I like to call cultic methodologies.
And uh, they basically became a cult. And one of the cult leaders, for instance, was a, a pur and preacher by the name of Cotton Mather. And, uh, he was a member of the Congregationalists, which was my denomination for a long time. So my denomination was a, a cult to begin with and right down through history, it seems to be a, um, a kind of an American thing to, uh, form this idea and say, my way is right, your way is wrong.
And that's it. Uh, I passed a, um, Um, I, I passed a sign that somebody had out in their front yard just a, a couple of days ago. I drove by it and I had to stop and look at it again because it said, uh, uh, America is free. If this makes you uncomfortable, I'll help you pack. You know, and, and was obviously a person expressing a typical political thing, but doing it in very cult-like methodology, we're right.
You're wrong. And when people get together like that, wow, it can just be, um, extremely cultic in nature and we begin to feed off other people in the cult. And when you ask me what. It What constitutes a cult? That's probably the basis of it. Um, people are drawn to a cult because there is something missing within them.
Uh, they, they feel lonely, they feel disenfranchised, they feel powerless. Uh, they feel like something is wrong and they don't know what it is. And then all of a sudden these people show up and say, Hey, come with me to this meeting. You know, we're, we're, uh, we're having this big meeting and come, come with me.
And you go in there and all of a sudden you find a group of. People who, uh, are glad to see you, they're glad to welcome you, and they form a kind of a family and they become your people. And, uh, all of a sudden you begin to find it very easy just to go along with the cultic, uh, theology, the dogma or the dog, uh, the doctrine, uh, whether it's an economic doctrine or whether it's a political doctrine, or whether it's a religious doctrine.
They supply a need. And in these days when we have been all, uh, so separate from each other for so long, uh, during a lot of the, uh, the shutdowns and all that kind of stuff, people are alone in their homes and they're feeling lonely. And they get on their computers and they go on the internet. And all of a sudden, wow, here's a, a group of people.
One of them may be in Texas, one of 'em may be in California, one of 'em may be in New England, another one in Florida. And they all see the world the way I do. And, uh, they had formed this online group and all of a sudden before you know it, man, it can, it can become a cult. And which has some good things.
I mean, let's face it, it connects us. Um, and, and that's a good thing. Take, take your show for instance. I mean, it's a wonderful thing to. Get people from all over who have a chance to realize, Hey, there's more people like me out here. We can bounce ideas off each other. That's a great thing. You're doing important work.
And, and it's, it's, it's really good. On the other hand, it can turn negative if somebody decides, well, you know, we aren't very strong where we are, we're separated by so much. But if we all get together and we all realize each other's out there, maybe we can do things. And all of a sudden now we're, we're not just a couple of, uh, people here or a small group there.
We are now a nationwide organization and we can accomplish all these things. And that's from the fact that it's all, you know, cults are known for bullying, sometimes at least bad ones are. And, uh, it's very easy to be a bully on the internet. You know, you can just sit there and push buttons and threaten and all this kind of stuff.
I mean, since, since American cults came out, I've had some . People threatened me. I had one guy, one guy, I'm, I'm sure he doesn't know where I live or anything like that, but he just wanted to show off and show how strong he was. And he, he said, uh, I, I don't even know what I had written that offended him. Uh, I think it had probably something to do with white nationalism, but he said, you know, you won't think that way when a pineapple shows up on your front yard.
And I didn't think he was talking about a fruit. I'm sure he was talking about a hand grenade. And I don't know whether this guy had even had a hand grenade, but he just wanted to be a bully and show it. And cults, cults do that. So it, it, it's a, it's a sticky web. There can be good things about getting together and there can be bad things.
So I like to warn people, watch out for cultic methodology. Yeah, man, it can, it can get us off if all, if we're vulnerable. 
[00:09:58] Jeremiah: And what is it about, like the Colts always seem to have this like Yeah. Strong but charismatic, like leader. Yeah. And it's usually a guy, but there are women that are involved too. Yeah.
That 
[00:10:10] Jim: I've read. Absolutely. You're you're absolutely right. Um, they're usually men. There are a few women who I talk about in my book, but he's usually a recognizable founder or maybe the current leader and cult cult leaders. Um, leadership is a tricky thing. Cult leaders usually somewhere cross a line.
They almost always fall into, first of all, what psychologists call narcissism. Uh, a narcissist generally feels entitled, feels grandiose. And they're, they're at the center not only of their own story, but everyone else's. And they, they usually lack any real empathy. They display a oh, an unmistakable.
Arrogance. And what's surprising is most of them are, are at root, pretty weak. They're in search of validation. Uh, they might feel a small sense of shame if they do wrong, but usually it's only because they got caught, not because they did something wrong. They need that. Validation, but narcissists can cross another line.
They can cross into the line of the sociopath or the psychopath. Um, that's a strange psychological condition. They literally don't feel any shame. And that's why it's surprising to most people. Sociopaths can usually pass lie detector tests. Uh, they honestly don't feel like they're lying. They feel like they can do no wrong if they're the ones performing the deeds.
If they do something, then it's obviously justified because they're the ones doing it. But it's, it's surprising though. They need the numbers. They need the adulation of the crowd. And frankly, that's a scary thing because I used to be a minister, a pastor of a church every Sunday morning. I wanted my church to grow.
I wanted people to come. And even when I retired from it, uh, having, I think, Um, side stepped or avoided the issue of possibly becoming a cult leader of myself. Um, ha Having avoided that, I came out here to the woods. I said, well, out here at least there's, you know, there's no, no sense of that. Then I found myself in a strange situation a couple years ago.
Uh, I recently wrote a, a trilogy of books about the rise of ego and how dangerous it is in narcissism in our society. And, uh, the books. There were three books. One of 'em was based on the story of Merlin, and one of 'em was based on the story of, uh, Robin Hood and the third on Snow White. And when I was writing about Snow White, I pictured the wicked Queen looking in her mirror every morning, you know, mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of the mall.
And she was her, her day was made if the mirror said, you are, and if it said, no, snow White, it's better. Then the wicked queen was gone. And I thought, well, there's a lesson for all of us. But even since I've been out here alone in the woods for 15 years, I've got a webpage, I've got a YouTube page, I've got a Facebook page.
I get up like everybody else, and I turn on the computer and I found myself, first thing I wanna do is, oh, who saw my YouTube page last night? Uh, who, who put likes on it? You know, and who subscribed? And how many do I have on my Facebook page? And what, how many people checked out my webpage? I found myself just like the wicked queen, except I was saying, you know, a computer, computer on the desk, who's the best of all the rest?
You know, that kind of thing. And, uh, yeah, it's a terrible temptation and some people give into it. And the ones that give into it usually try to form that cult of validation. It's, it's something easy for all of us to do if the opportunity arises and is something we have to be constantly on the lookout for.
I 
[00:13:54] Jeremiah: think. And what is it about these cult leaders, and I'm not saying all, but a lot of them seem to have something with, I don't know, I don't want to use, well, I guess it's technically pedophilia, but like, it seems like they always want, like young brides and they want a lot of brides and they won. Yeah.
You know, all that stuff. Oh, 
[00:14:17] Jim: yeah. You know, uh, Jim Jones who, uh, you know, led the, um, uh, oh, the People's Temple of the Full, started with the People's Temple of Full Gospel Church. Uh, he was just a, a typical, uh, Indiana Methodist preacher. And, uh, lo and behold, um, he got involved with the, uh, assemblies of God, uh, LA ladder, rain Movement, it was called, it was a, a spiritual, they call it a reformation or a revival or something, but it really went over the top.
And a lot of the Assemblies of God people didn't like it. And they excommunicated Jim Jones. And, uh, he moved eventually. He was the one that moved to, to Guiana and had that terrible tragedy where they all drank the Kool-Aid. Wasn't really Kool-Aid, but that, that was what that, you know, that become the expression, that's the phrase, but I get a kick out of it.
When he, uh, when he was just starting out and realizing his potential as a cult leader, he went to see Father Divine in New York. And because Father Divine was, uh, leading the peace mission there and, uh, that was called a cult back then. Now it's, a lot of people consider it part of the, um, uh, civil rights movement.
But at any rate, one of the things that he did was talk to Father Divine. He said, father Divine, um, I thank you for your help and all of this, but I got one more question for you. Some of the women in my cult seem to have this thing for me, and I'm fine feelings within myself for them. What can I do? And Father Divine looked at him and said, um, You must bring these to the surface so that, uh, they may, uh, you deal with the surfaces with, with, with, with those kind of feelings.
And Jim Jones did exactly that. He brought it to the surface and uh, he had a lot of women ready to hang on his every word. Uh, it was the same thing with David Koresh in, in Waco. Um, David forbid anybody in their thing to have sex except for him, he had 20 wives and a lot of kids. Uh, it was the same thing when, when the, um, latter Day Saints movement, the Mormons were just starting out.
Uh, church leaders had a lot of young wives, uh, and they made it a doctrine. It's a a very common thing, probably because, oh, when you're talking about. Sex and adulation and power and all that kind of stuff. Uh, it, it has gotten a lot of leaders in trouble and some who were, became presidents of the United States.
Many of them, we now look back and see that they had those kind of, that kind of power seems to almost, um, follow inevitably, uh, with, with popularity. It like corrupts you Yeah. Corruption. You're, that that's a, that's exactly, it's, it's real easy for us to step over the line and it's always a step by step, step by step process.
It happens so slowly that we're just not aware of it until boom, it hits big time and then it gets us in trouble. As we've seen recently in American history with the number of presidents that have had affairs, you know, uh, it's power corruption. Who, who was it that said, uh, um, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
We see that a lot. A lot in cults. 
[00:17:38] Jeremiah: Yeah, they, um, that does seem to be like a major thing in a lot of the cults I was looking up, like, um, polygamy seems to be a huge thing and the forbiddenness of the other members to have wives and stuff, it's kind of like feeds into that narcissism of the leader. Like it's, everything's his, and, and then there's another facet of the cults where it's like a lot of people have to give like, pretty much everything to the cult and the church.
So they don't have like their own identity, they don't have their own possessions. It's kind of like all for one 
[00:18:13] Jim: type of deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, Jim Jones was another great example of that. Um, a lot of older people, for instance, face difficult decisions in life, uh, older people. And I'm, the older I get, the more I'm learning how this works.
Um, you can feel powerless and you can feel, you know, um, How do I handle my money? Everything costs more. I can't keep up with inflation. I don't have an income. And so they would go to Jim Jones and they would go to his church where they would receive some gratification and he would regularly tell them what, sell everything you've got, give the money to the church and we'll take care of you for the rest of your life.
Now, that's pretty appealing for an older person who says, oh, what a relief. I don't have to worry about this anymore. I don't have to worry about where my next meal's coming from. I don't have to worry about paying taxes or paying social or getting social security or whatever. I'll just give it all to the church and then the church will take care of me.
And, uh, that would be a, a good thing if it were done under honorable conditions. But unfortunately, most of these things don't. That was one of the things that got Jim Bakker in so much trouble. Um, he had this, uh, this big, big plan at his, uh, Christian themed amusement park where if, you know, where he, if.
You know, people could just give him a, a price and they'd have a place to come, uh, a certain nu number of times during the year. And, and everything was paid for in advance except he way overbooked it. And when the government found out about it, they shut him down. And that was, that was part of that whole process.
Um, it's, it's a, it's attempting thing to say, we'll solve all your problems. Just give us everything you got. We'll take care of you for the rest of your life. And it's a, it's a very tempting solution to a lot of people like that, especially older people. And it, it's hard. 
[00:19:59] Jeremiah: Yeah, they definitely seem to prey on those who are like, I don't know, counted down and out in life.
Kind of like looking for somebody. It's kind of like street gangs, kind of the same premise. Like you have these kids that don't have good, you know, parent figures and they're looking for acceptance. They're looking for someone to show them love or whatever. And. The gang leaders are there to be like, Hey, we're your family.
I mean, you know, and take 'em in. 
[00:20:28] Jim: You know, I've talked to a lot of people though about American cults. You're the first person to bring this up. I hadn't associated street gangs with cults before. I don't know why. Cuz now that you say it, it's so obvious. I should have seen it. I don't know why. I just never clicked.
It's just a different, different form of it. I you're absolutely right. Um, you know, this is my protection. This is my family. This is where I go for my, my entertainment, my social life. Everything else is within this gang. And, uh, of course, as we've seen when gangs like any other cults, when they start to operate, it's, it can be fine if everybody was honorable.
Trouble is, huh? Everybody's not honorable. 
[00:21:07] Jeremiah: Yeah, exactly. And then, um, The Colts, they aren't always like your typical like Christian, religious, no type. There are cults that are into like, you know, the whole alien aspect. I remember the HaBO Comet. 
[00:21:22] Jim: Oh sure, yeah. Apple White I think is, yeah, apple White and his and his group, uh, they were sure that, uh, um, they were one of those groups and, and culture are big for this, you know, culturally I think our, our, our salvation has gotta come from outside, uh, in some groups it means we're not gonna be saved as a human race unless, Jesus Christ comes back, uh, unless Vishnu returns, that kind of thing.
And, uh, apple White was convinced that there was a, uh, spaceship and alien, uh, carrying aliens who were coming to get him. And they, they were coming in the, the wake of the, uh, HaBO Comet. And that's why we couldn't see him because they were shielded by the comet, so to speak. And, uh, he was absolutely convinced they were gonna come to save us.
Um, it's, it's really funny how this catches on too, uh, about that. Well, before that time, let, let's say late fifties or sixties, especially in the early seventies, uh, there was a whole lot of, um, things going on at the same time. Of course, area 51 was huge at that point, and a lot of people all of a sudden started reporting, seeing, um, alien visitations, uh, saucers and all the rest of this stuff.
But didn't start there. Uh, Carl Young, great psychologist wrote a book about what this meant in terms of our psyche and how we were looking outside of ourselves for salvation. And, uh, at the same time, uh, the. Hal Lindsay's, the late great planet Earth was written, which really gave the whole idea of the rapture and Jesus coming back for his church and snatching up or raping his church.
That all happened roughly the same time within the, within the same decade or two. Um, Because the human race got to the point after World War II was over, and World War II was so devastating and so scary that we began to say, maybe we can't save ourselves. Uh, maybe we just don't have it. Maybe it's not possible.
And so we look up to the skies and it's either a religious idea or it's, uh, the aliens coming back for us. Maybe they can save us. Um, I'll be honest, a couple of times I'm kind of rooting for the comment myself. You know what I'm saying? It, it just doesn't seem possible that we have it within us to save ourself, which is strange because we all know that if we could just pass one law that everybody had follow the world, we could get rid of all of our police forces and all of our armies.
If everybody would file the simple law, treat others like you want to be treated, um, love thy neighbor as thyself. All the religions have that same kind of thing. We all know that that's a very easy and cheap answer, but we all know it's not gonna happen. Uh, it would be wonderful if it could. And so we say maybe we just don't have it within us.
Maybe we just aren't capable of saving ourselves, so we look to the heavens or we look to the universe or something like that. And, um, anybody who's ever worked as much with ancient civilizations as I have knows that this is not a new thing. This is. This goes way back in history. Ever since Gobekli Tepi was discovered, the people who built Gobekli Tepi were obviously trying to get in touch with something out there.
Now, Gobekli Tepi was built in the aftermath of a great, uh, segmented comment strike about 11,008 or 12,000 years ago. And, uh, the people probably saw that and said, well, maybe, maybe that's the gods. Maybe they can come back and save us. Watch for this when it happens again. And it introduced our whole civilization.
So basically our civilization was built on a small group of cult-like believers who believed it happened once. It can happen again. So we have to do things to stave it off or be ready for it when it comes again. 
[00:25:03] Jeremiah: Yeah, and that's another thing that I wanted to touch on too, was the, and you kind of mentioned it, but like, A lot of these cults are really focused on the end times and the, uh, Armageddon and stuff, and that's how they kind of like latch onto their congregation or their followers, like, yeah.
[00:25:23] Jim: Yeah. I, I, I like to say that, um, uh, cults are really founded on two basic doctrines. One is the doctrine of conspiracy theory and the other doctrine is what I call the doctrine of the crystal ball. The two Cs conspiracies and the crystal ball. Almost all of them have an idea that, you know, the end is coming and we are the chosen ones who are gonna survive it.
Uh, that led, for instance, in Waco to the end of, uh, David Koresh and his and his group. Um, Uh, uh, Howell, his name was, changed. His name to David Koresh, um, was the leader of a Colton. He was very much involved in the book of Revelation in the end times. And he was convinced that the end times were coming.
And so he had his flower followers convinced and he said, it's gonna come with noise and it's gonna come with confusion, and it's gonna come with guns, and it's gonna come with lightning and it's gonna come. And the people were looking for this, and so they began to actually collect all of these guns that they could and have them so they could protect themselves.
When the end came, well, it started to raise some. Problems in the, uh, in the federal government. So the ATF went out to the compound in Waco to check it out, and, uh, four of them were killed. Four FBI agents were, or four ATF agents were killed. And so the FBI surrounded the compound for what, 51 days. And then a strange thing happened.
They began to go by the book and they began to use the typical rules of engagement for when you wanted to bring a. Bring down the castle, so to speak. And so they would have these great speakers set up and loud, heavy metal or type rock music, I guess they didn't have heavy metal then, but it wasn't called then.
But they would broadcast this 24 hours a day so the people couldn't sleep and they would have lights flashing through disguise and helicopters flying over. What they were doing was recreating exactly. They didn't know they were doing it, but what they were doing was recreating exactly the conditions that David Kresh had convinced his people within the compound was gonna happen at the end days.
And that was the days before cell phone. And there was no radio reception in there. The government had closed that off. So for all the people knew, it wasn't just one segregated thing in in in Waco, it might have been a worldwide phenomenon. Maybe they were just one of the groups. So they honestly inside the compound, they thought the last days were coming and they were prepared to defend themselves cuz they were God's chosen one.
And when the FBI finally did bring in the SWAT teams and everything else, guns blazing and everything else, the people honestly thought, this is the end of the world. It just, it's coming exactly as Kresh told us it would come. And nobody knows what happened. Nobody knows who fired the shot or what smoke bomb or whether the people said it themselves, but whatever the fire and the compound commenced and how many people died, you know, hundreds of people died.
And it was just a, a terrible thing all because they were just so obsessed with this idea that the world is coming to an end. We are the chosen ones, we're gonna be the ones to get through it. Um, a very popular thing. And yet when you stop to think about it, it's really ridiculous. I know in the. Place where I live, there are people around me who are absolutely convinced the United States is, is going down the hill.
And so they collect the guns and they really think that one person sitting in their living room with an AR 15 is gonna be able to defend themselves against a federal SWAT team. Or they really think that they grow a big garden so they can grow their own food. As soon as the food's ready to harvest, they really figure that they're gonna be able to harvest it rather than the 15 pickup trucks that roll in heavily armed people and collect all the, you know, steal all the food.
We can't defend against that kind of a thing. It it, it's silly to think we can, even a small group is not big enough to defend against that kind of a situation. Um, and so as a result, it, it happens, you know, people, uh, it just, they're so worried about the end times coming that they bring about the very end that they were afraid of it.
It's a tragedy, just a tragedy. Yeah, 
[00:29:30] Jeremiah: it's uh, it's kind of weird that you said that cuz I used to get like, really into like the whole prepping thing or being a me too prepper or whatever. And like, um, and it is like kind of, I don't know, there's no like leader of the prepper or anything, but it, the whole community is like very focused on the apocalypse and the end of society and Yeah, it's like, and then it like fantasizes the end of society too, I think a little bit.
Oh, very much. And you get it in, you get it in TV shows like The Walking Dead and stuff like that. Like, it's not gonna go as smoothly as you see on tv. Like, it's gonna be a freaking nightmare. And the chance of, of you surviving is gonna be slim. Oh yeah. You know, unless you're like a trained like, I don't know, green Beret or something.
Well, even, 
[00:30:19] Jim: even that one, even then one or a small group of even trained. The Rangers or something, you know, you, you can't defend against something as big as that. When the infrastructure goes for heaven's sake, we lose power for a couple of days and, uh, everybody begins to panic because they can't get their food from the grocery store, you know, or they can't get their water or they can't watch television or anything else.
And when the end of civil, and I'm not saying the end of civilization is not gonna come, I, I mean every civilization that's ever lived has, has fallen. And it could very well happen to us. I mean, we might be the next, the next last civilization, so to speak. I'm not saying it won't come. A couple of good, good place, well placed, uh, nuclear weapons and it would dis destroy the life as we know it.
And it's silly to think. That, uh, we have the, the means all we can do is something like that happens is just try our best moment to moment to get through. We, we, you can't make plans for something like that. It just isn't gonna work. It used to be that people had this idea, um, In this country that, oh, back before the Civil War and even, even somewhat after the Civil War, it used to be that people think, well, all I gotta do is, uh, cross the Mississippi and there's all that land out there, and I can live by myself and I can be a survivalist.
And a lot of 'em did. But that was a different day. It was a different time. Um, and there weren't that many of 'em. You know, you could. Uh, and it just, it, it, it really can't be done anymore. There's no more, there's no more space. Uh, and people don't have the survival skills that they used to. They like to think they do, but, um, I used to go out in the woods with my, myself when I was younger, uh, and had more energy.
I used to love to go out in the woods myself and with a hunting rifle or with a fishing rod, depending on the season, and just try to live off the land for four or five days. And, uh, I loved it, but there was also a lot of time I went. I went up Hungary, uh, up where I was upstate in New York or up in New England.
Uh, there weren't a lot of berries around in the woods in January and February, you know, and the animals were, yeah, the animals were fewer and far between. And I, I used to go hungry quite often and I think all the people who think they may have some survival skills, when you get out there and do it, it's a whole different story.
I've, I've tried it, I know what it's like. And if, if the end comes, and again, I'm not saying it's not gonna come, I'm just saying if the end comes, uh, really hard to plan for it, for the breakdown of civilization, very hard to plan. 
[00:32:57] Jeremiah: Oh yeah, definitely. I always tell friends and family and stuff like, if there's gonna be like an apocalypse, I just want to.
Get taken out like instantly. Like I don't want to have to live through it. Like, it's gonna be terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if I have to, I'm gonna have to. Yeah. You know, like you said, take it time, day by day, but Well, you know, I'd rather just 
[00:33:19] Jim: go when, when you stop to think about it. Um, if. Say a, a worldwide nuclear disaster happened.
I mean, people were, you know, mutually assured, destruction took place and we were all bombing each other and everything else. There would be survivors, but who would they be? They're the people now we think of as primitive. The tribes down in, in, uh, in, in Peru, in South America. Some tribes in Africa, they're perfectly equipped to handle that kind of a thing.
The one we, we call them primitive. We, we say they're not as smart as us, they're not as sophisticated as we are. We'd be wiped out. We, we couldn't do it. They could, they have the skills and there would probably be small pockets of these people who. Could pick up and keep going. They might not even be aware of what's going on out there in the world.
You know, they might know, they might see climate stuff going on and say, wow, gods are angry with it. They might not even understand the idea of it, nuclear destruction, but they are the ones that would survive. I think it's happened in the past before. I think there have been civilizations that have been destroyed, and I think they come down to us in, uh, in legends.
Uh, for instance, uh, old, old legends, uh, Plato, for instance, in the Ta MEUs wrote about, um, um, Civilization that we now call Atlantis. Um, and I think there is some evidence that may say this is not just a teaching device. This may have actually happened and Plato was remembering it, you know, thousands of years later.
But, uh, he gave us an awful lot of detail. But even if it's not a historical event, even if it's just a metaphor, here's 2,500 years ago, somebody talking about the decline of a civilization. And he even gave the reason for it. And this is what's really scary because when he was talking about his, uh, legendary atlantians, he said this was the what brought them down.
And as I read his words here, think about our own civilization, he might have been describing us, he said, for many generations they, that is the atlantians obeyed the laws and loved. The divine to which they were a kin. Ah, I love that. They loved the divine, to which they were a kin, they reckoned that qualities of character were far more important than their present prosperity.
So they bore the burden of their wealth and possessions lightly, and they did not let their high standard of living intoxicate them or make them lose their self-control. But he said when the divine element in them became weakened and their human traits became predominant, they ceased to be able, here it is, to carry their prosperity with moderation.
And they were destroyed in a single night and day. By a great cataclysm. Wow. If that doesn't describe what's going on, uh, in our, I think Play-Doh Mudman just talking about us, I think it's just a reminder that whether this is history or whether it's a myth, it's happened before and there's no reason to think it can't happen again.
We live in a very, very dangerous time and we can turn on our news programs right here, right now, and we can hear about the possibilities of, uh, nuclear holocaust and the possibilities, another world war and possibility of mutually destroying each other. We can hear about it right now. So is is gathering together, banding together?
An oc cult gonna save us? I doubt it. I doubt it. You know 
[00:37:15] Jeremiah: what about like, um, There are modern day cults too, right? Oh, yeah. Like, it's not just in the past, you know, I, 
[00:37:21] Jim: I, the last figures I said showed that the, the, there are some 5,000 groups working in only America today. This very day. 5,000 groups that constitute cults.
They are, it's a huge thing. There are economic cults who deal with pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes and things like that. There are political cults, uh, us against them left against Right. Uh, that kind of thing. There are a tremendous amount of religious cults. Um, there's even cults involved in academia.
Used to be a college professor and we had cults in my school, you know, where you go into the history department and there were some people who were Clovis first people, and some people who were sa you know, the Clovis first was the first Americans came over the Siberian Land Bridge 12,000, 16,000 years ago.
That's it. They settled near Clovis, New Mexico in one place, and they made this beautiful Clovis point. They were the first ones to come, and other people said, no, no. America was settled way, way before 16, 12, 16,000 years ago. And they would argue with each other. And in, in some cases, for instance, in, in our.
In academia alone for almost a hundred years. Unless you were a Clovis first cult member, man, you couldn't get a job teaching, you couldn't get a job on a, you couldn't get a job for your research. You couldn't do a dig. You were kicked right out. Same thing goes on in, in the, in the realm of science. And that's what bothers me too.
Uh, take Hugh Everett, for instance, a great physicist who gave us the whole idea of the mini world's concept, um, and great quantum physicist in his lifetime. He was considered an absolute kook. He was barred. He couldn't teach, couldn't he had to go get a work. He had to go work for the government, which is.
Probably a good thing because whoever it was, the one who gave us the, uh, uh, who wrote the letter that led to what may have got us through the Cold War and the mutually assured Destruction pact. That was his, that was his brainchild. But he died thinking he was an absolute failure because nobody would, anybody who was just gonna follow whoever ever.
It was a cult. Well, now, whoever it is considered a, um, brilliant, uh, or very early but brilliant, uh, um, nu uh, um, physicist and a lot of people in, in theoretical physics, uh, except his whole, whole idea of the multiverse right now. But back in his day, no. He was just a branded, a, a cult or a cult leader, and they wanted to throw him right out.
So even in science, we've got cults. It's just a terrible thing. 
[00:40:01] Jeremiah: And then what's that one that's been getting a lot of like, negative publicity lately? And there was that actress that wrote a book about it. The Oh, Scientology. Oh, 
[00:40:09] Jim: Scientology, yeah. Yeah, that's, Scientology was, uh, labeled a cult right from the beginning.
And they have been, uh, uh, it's a, a very controversial thing. I mean, Tom Cruise, for instance, you know, as a Scientologist. And, uh, whenever anybody joins, they can just think this is the greatest thing going. And, uh, El Ron Hubbard is a genius. And then other people who get into it and discover that it's got problems, they, they leave and then they usually write books or are interviewed in an article.
So about Scientology as a cult, that kind of thing. And that's a big argument. You wanna start a, a good argument sometime. Just say, Scientology is a cult, and watch what happens. You'll be, you'll be either vilified or lifted up, you know? And, uh, it's. There's, there's a lot of other ones like it, A lot of cults, for instance, uh, uh, economic cults that uh, uh, deal with the idea of is, you know, you, you come to our seminars, you buy our product, our starter kits, and you go out and you start, your life can be changed.
And these people are wonderful. They greet you at the door, the music is pumping. Everybody else is the same. And then after that's over and you're convinced you're gonna go out and take over the world and you're gonna become wealthy, cuz everybody else seems to have done it. You go back home and nothing works.
Maybe you sell some product to family or friends or something like that. Then you say, well, what did I do wrong? And then they got, well, you gotta come to this other seminar. It's a next level up, you know, and, uh, we'll teach you more techniques and everything else. And then they, and then they, they will hit you with a typical Celtic method that goes, Maybe you're surrounded by the wrong people.
Maybe your old friends or your family. Maybe they're negative. Maybe you need more positive stuff. So push them aside, you know, leave them behind. Come with us. We're the future culture. Really big on that. They wanna separate you from your family. They wanna separate you. And because you're finding it works, and after a while you got so much invested in it, not only for money, but time and effort.
You begin to suspect it, but you can't pull out. You just, you got too much invested in it. And so, yeah, you, you, you know, it, it's very, it's very difficult. You say, well, I'm not really sure, but I'll stay with it. Sometimes when people leave cults, it takes a tremendous amount of courage, especially when they're very, very, uh, famous people take, um, a Deepak Chopra and the Beatles, both of them were very much involved with, uh, the Maharishi Maha.
And, uh, they were both involved in his whole t transcendental meditation idea. Um, and both Deepak Chopra and the Beatles came to the point when they began to say, Uh, I'm not so sure this looks beginning to have some cult-like meaning to it. I think it was, was, was it John or was it Paul, uh, of the Beatles who said, yeah, we were wrong there.
You know, we went overboard, but we were wrong there. And the same thing with Deepak Chopra. They both dropped, uh, both the Beatles and Chopra dropped out of the TN movement just because they saw certain cult-like methodologies operating and they said this, this is not good. So they left. That's a difficult thing to do.
[00:43:23] Jeremiah: Yeah. And I saw it's kind of new. I think there's a show on, um, Netflix that you can watch. It's about personal finances and stuff and trying to get rid of debt. And the one girl in there is involved in like a multi-level marketing scheme. Ah, and that's. That whole thing is kind of cult-like too. Yes.
Because they like gave her a, they're like, oh, we get promote you to a higher level. Here's your car, but you still gotta make payments on the car. And then if you sell this, we'll give you, you know, the money back or whatever. So they get this Suck you in. Yeah. 
[00:43:56] Jim: Yeah. It's, it's amazing how many relatively expected, um, or accepted, um, organizations today that are considered mainstream.
But when you look at 'em, they're cultic in nature. They're, they're based on, like you said, um, multi-level marketing schemes, uh, MLMs, we call them, or they're based on Ponzi schemes or they're based on pyramid schemes, uh, um, schemes. Some very, very popular things which are not considered legally OC cult bone.
You look at their methods. Wow. They're shot through with cultism right on through. 
[00:44:31] Jeremiah: Yeah, cuz you have like the person at the top who's getting everything Yep. And making all the money. Yep. Yep. And then the further you go down. So if you start at the entry level, your chance of success is really low. And sometimes it's even impossible to get higher up.
Absolutely. And they just keep you locked in. 
[00:44:48] Jim: Absolutely. Uh, and when you go to their meetings, they'll, they'll hold them in a downtown hotel someplace with a big ballroom when you go in and the music will be pumping and the people will be dancing and they'll be greeting each other like they're long lost relatives.
And then the people will stay up. Now, here I am, man, I, I had a dollar to my name, but I joined this organization and now I'm driving around in a paint Cadillac, you know, that kind of thing. And then the, the featured speaker comes up, the founder of the group or something like that, and, and he tells you how you can do it.
They don't bring anybody up there ever to stand on stage and say, ah, I tried it, it didn't work. You know, those people don't, they don't give the testimonies, you know, it's only, there's no B sides. It's always, this is success, success, success. Quite frankly, though, and again, I have to confess this, it scares me because I see the techniques that they use, um, in these things.
And the same thing in political rallies. You're go and the bands are playing. I used to play in a, in a, a jazz group that played a lot of political conventions. I mean, we, we played for the Rockefellers and, and we paid, played, played for, uh, Ted Kennedy once, and we did all this kind of stuff. And you know, the idea is to pump the crowd up, get there early, get 'em going, and make it positive.
Well, what scares me about, that's the same technique I use when I was a pastor of a church. I didn't mean to, I didn't mean anything bad by it, but I would tell my church members, when someone comes, meet them in the parking lot, shake their hand, come in, show them around, um, You know, show them where the different buildings of the church are.
Make 'em feel happy when they would come into the sanctuary and music was playing and people were happy, and then I would, and the people would stand up and they'd give their little testimonies, and then I'd stand up as the featured talented talker. And you can do it. You can make it in life. You know, this is the answer.
I was basically using Celtic methods myself. I'm ashamed of it, but I didn't know what else I can do. Uh, that's how you manipulate people. And I didn't mean to do it in a manipulative way. I honestly thought that I was doing a good thing, that I had something to offer that would really help people, uh, that our church did.
And it's the same thing with a lot of Celtic figures. I, I, I don't think a lot of 'em start out to just, you know, diabolically, you know, manipulate people. I, I think they really believe in their. Product, whether it's an economic product, a spiritual product or political product, they believe in it. And so they want to convince people this is good for you.
And probably a lot of these are, they would be good for you. It's just that they, they go too far. Then it becomes bad. There 
[00:47:24] Jeremiah: are some cult leaders too, that like, they will brainwash their followers to commit acts kind of like the Manson family, Manson, Manson family, but they actually won't do it 
[00:47:35] Jim: themselves.
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great, that's a great example too. Uh, yeah, I didn't do anything wrong. My followers may have done something wrong. I didn't do anything wrong. Matter of fact, it's even very common for cult leaders to give these people suggestions about, you ought to go out and do this, and you ought to go out and do that.
But they don't even want to know when it happens. They don't want to give the order, you know? Um, kind of like in the old, uh, The old mob mob days, uh, maybe even now. I don't, I don't know how the mob works nowadays, but you know, the, the top guy, the godfather, you know, he never gave the order. He just made suggestions and the people underneath him than interpreted those suggestions.
And then they gave more significant what, by the time the order was given, the leader of the group was totally insulated from it. I didn't do anything. Politicians are great for this, you know, they, they don't want to be connected to a certain brand or actually, so, uh, you know, they will say, I didn't know anything about it.
It was just some people below me, you know, wanted to go out and commit dirty tricks or, uh, Rob the, um, um, you know, break into the Watergate hotel. You know, I didn't tell him to do that. Well, he didn't, but. He kind of implied, you know, and it, it went down very strong. Cultic mytho methodology. It's uh, it's a terrible thing, that's for sure.
[00:48:59] Jeremiah: Yeah. Like, um, with the Manson family, luckily they were able to snag him too. Um, and I read like it wasn't, he got, he got arrested because of that imply or that, um, push to have them commit the murders and, um, 
[00:49:16] Jim: well, yeah, so Jimmy, Jimmy Hoffa never got, never got, uh, convicted for giving those kinds of orders either.
They got him on tax evasion, everybody knew he had done it, but they had to give him on something and they finally got him on a lesser charge. And that's very common cultic activity. And then 
[00:49:32] Jeremiah: there was another cult I was looking at that it was, I found it kind of interesting. It was the, um, children of God with David Berg and he would actually send his like young female followers.
Out to like sexually seduce people to come join the cult. 
[00:49:51] Jim: Yeah. They called it flirty fishing. Uh, yeah. He would send, and the idea was about, and just, you know, stand around and, uh, you don't wanna look like a hooker or anything like that, but stand around and, uh, basically use, you know, sexual attraction to get people involved.
And, and it worked. Um, David Berg was a, you gotta give him credit. He was a genius and it worked, but it was so terrible. Ought to be, he should be ashamed of himself, but he's a cult leader. So he honestly thought, well, the ends justify the means. So go out by any method available, get people into the group.
[00:50:30] Jeremiah: And a lot of the cult leaders, um, that I've researched and looked into and stuff is like, they always say like, God spoke to them, or an angel spoke to them, or they're like a divine source for a message 
[00:50:45] Jim: and Yep. Yeah, that's, that's very common. There's your justification. I, I can get away with this because I'm doing the Will of God.
Uh, that was the early Puritan thing. You know, it's God's will that you live our way. And, and, and it's been on there ever since. Uh, virtually every denomination that ever existed in the Christian Church, beginning with the Protestant Reformation, and then the Protestants split up into four great groups after the Reformation, and then those four groups divided up and more and more, virtually every one of 'em started out as a small group of people who believed that God told him to do it.
And, uh, you know, God said this is the right way. Uh, When, when, uh, well, we see it. I don't want to get into politics too much, but I mean, we see a whole lot of people today saying, you know, um, so-and-so ought to be president because he's God's choice. You know, that kind of thing. Terrible, terrible thing. I mean, whether so-and-so should be president or not that stuff, but everybody make their own decision.
But did God really is God so impotent that he can't get anything done unless he gets a, a president on his side? You know? I mean, do we have that much power over that kind of a God? Oh, it, it's, it's nonsense, but people, people pick it up. People buy it. 
[00:52:04] Jeremiah: Yeah. You have like, Both sides of the political aisle has their like extremists.
So you have like the extreme feminist side, and then you have like the extreme, you know, MAGA side that thinks Donald Trump's the new Messiah or whatever. 
[00:52:21] Jim: Yeah, yeah. I, so there's a, there's a, there's a sign, there's a sign right down, not in a half a mile from me that says, uh, you know, Jesus is my savior, Trump is my president, that kind of thing.
A lot of people, a lot of people take that. Uh, and, and it's, it's, it's very. Very common problem is though, that it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's such a misuse of power, but people get to feeling into it. They feel so strongly about their cause, and there's nothing wrong with feeling strongly about a cross, whether you're very conservative or very liberal.
Uh, we need you both. You know, we need the very strong, we need on, on both sides. The problem is that when you begin to say this is God's will, uh, Jerry Falwell was really big on this when he founded the Moral Majority, uh, Jerry Falwell began to preach that what we need to do is get people saved. We need to get 'em baptized and we need to get 'em registered to vote.
Uh, and that was when the, uh, political Im, uh, The cult began to take over really weed its way into the church. So weave its way into the structure of the church, and that's gotten much worse. Now. I've heard, I've heard preachers within the last couple of weeks even stand up in front of their congregations and their pus and say, you gotta go out there in the world with a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other and do it for Jesus.
You know, that kind of thing. Um, and it's, it's dangerous. I, uh, years ago, uh, when Chuck, Chuck Colson, who was, uh, Dick Nixon or Richard Nixon's hitman, uh, when he got out of prison, He had had a very strong, uh, religious conversion experience and, uh, he became a very solidly dedicated conservative Christian.
And, uh, he was scheduled to preach at a big outdoor venue near my, where, near where I lived. And I got a call that morning from the person around the venue and said, the music group that was supposed to open for Charles Colson, they can't make it. Something happened. Um, can you come up here? And, and, uh, We do some songs and everything else before Colson speaks.
So said, sure. My wife and I were, were singing at that time. We were, we were gospel singers at that time. So we packed up our equipment, we went up to this place and there's two, three, 4,000 people gathered together and, uh, big stage up there with no rehearsal or no stuff, and the music and the, and the leader of the event said, go up and do your thing.
Yeah, he's not here yet. He should't be here shortly. Well, it was supposed to be two or three songs, maybe 10, 15 minutes tops. It turned into a whole 45 minute set because he was really late and he felt bad about it. So we're we're just singing and singing and the music director's going sing longer, longer.
We, we did a whole, a whole set and it was, it was pretty successful. But Colson comes down to the center aisle and he realized that he was late and he realized what he had done to us. So he gave me a thumbs up sign when he came by and went out. Well, after the thing was over, he stood up and gave his, his talk about, you know, religion and politics and all that kind of thing.
Well, the time came up afterwards and a person came up to me and said, uh, uh, the Colson, uh, Colson is gonna be, uh, uh, having this, uh, catered lobster dinner, outside dinner at this wealthy person's house nearby. Can you come and he wants to meet you? And I said, sure. Who were white didn't have anything better to do than meet Charles Colson.
So I went and, uh, I got there and I went through the line. I got my star was great, great, you know, feed put out. And Colson saw me sitting at the table. So he came and sat across from me and we got talking and everything else. And I said, well, what's it like being that close to power? And he said, you know, it's, it's a terrible, it's an aphrodisiac.
He said what we would do, and he told us what the plan was in Washington when he was in Nixon's White House. We would get all of these famous preachers, we would get, uh, o Jerry Falwell from, uh, Lynchburg, and we would get, uh, Kennedy up from Florida and uh, you know, and we would get so-and-so from this place and so-and-so from that place.
And we bring 'em up to the White House in wine and dem and it as sunset, we'd always take 'em out on the presidential lot, uh, yacht, the Sequoia. And we would go down the river and we'd always time it exactly so that we were there, uh, at the, uh, place when they had the, the flag would be taken down at Twilight and the Bugles would play.
And we knew when this was all over, somebody would always put their hand over their heart and say, let us pray. You know? And so they would, and then we knew that the next Sunday, every one of those people would go out and they would give their speech about, yeah, I was at the White House the other day, you know, and they'd want to.
Bring in the fact how powerful they were. And we knew that they would carefully give to their congregation in their sermons the political, uh, talking points that we would surreptitiously feed them all during the day that they were with us. We knew that they were gonna get a lot of people listening to those sermons cuz all of 'em were televised and all of 'em were mega churches.
We knew that we could get out and get our message out to all of these people. He said, you know what the, uh, Colson told me this was an evangelical Christian himself. After his conversion, he said the Evangelical church is the easiest, um, group in the country to manipulate. And they were doing it way back during the time of Nixon and of course Watergate and everything else.
It's a very easy thing to do and it's, it's a shame. It just is a 
[00:57:53] Jeremiah: shame. Yeah. It's like you said, if you're preaching these certain signs and then you're. Pointing out things that are happening now that align with those signs, even though they're, you know, not really. It can definitely, uh, you know, freak, freak people out.
It can cause panic in someone to think like, remember when this whole like, uh, COVID thing started? Oh yeah. There was a lot of people that were like, oh, this is, this is it. 
[00:58:22] Jim: This is the end of the world times this. Yeah, 
[00:58:25] Jeremiah: this is the fan, the whatever plague pestilence that was prophesied. 
[00:58:31] Jim: Yeah. And then it, then it soon became a, a conspiracy that it was started maliciously by a secret cabal or a secret group or something like that.
And on and on it went. And who knows if any of this stuff is true? We don't know what goes on behind the scenes. All we can do is say, well, it doesn't look like the world is gonna end from Covid anyway. And so, you know,
[00:58:53] Jeremiah: so if, um, if there's someone listening who is either. Has a thing, uh, they think they might be in a cult or they know a family member that's in a cult, or think that maybe they're around a friend. Maybe that is in a cult. Like what kind of advice would you give? 
[00:59:13] Jim: Oh, Jeremiah, I wish I could give you advice that would fit on a bumper sticker.
I really do. There is no easy answer. Uh, you, you can't confront 'em with facts because it's much beyond the, the factual stage. The only advice I can give is you, you gotta love them to death. You gotta be there for them, even if you pull them out of the cult. And in the seventies, this was a big thing.
Deprogrammer were huge back in the seventies. Even if you pull them out, if you can't give them something to replace what they found from the cult in the first place, what they were looking for. Family acceptance, uh, importance, purpose. If you can't give 'em that, even if you pull 'em out, they're just gonna go join some other group.
Um, somehow we all have to get to the fact that we have to understand that our own growth as human beings, our own purpose, uh, call it spiritual growth, call it emotional growth, call it psychological growth, whatever you want to call it. It can only come from within. If there was a group out there that will attempt to meet your need by giving you something that you feel is missing from your life, uh, you're gonna be susceptible.
And there's just no way to do that. So if, if you feel you're involved, it's gonna be a tremendous amount of work, but you've gotta get out and then you've gotta start seek searching for something else, probably within yourself. If you feel a friend or a family member is involved in a cult. Oh, just be there for them.
Be there for them. It's, it's, I wish I could say it always works. Unfortunately it doesn't. It's that difficult. And, uh, it's a, it's a hard, hard thing. If you're gonna be involved in getting somebody out, boy, you better be in it for the long haul. You better be there for them when they need you. 
[01:01:07] Jeremiah: Yeah. Cuz they'll probably slide right back into it.
Yep. Yep. That's right. It's kind of like, um, It's kind of like people with drug addiction, like, oh yeah, they'll be, they'll be clean. But there's always that instance where they lapse or something bad happens and they just instantly slide back 
[01:01:25] Jim: into that. Yeah. Well that's why, that's why people stay with drugs or alcohol or anything else.
They do something for you at first. I mean, when you go there, they, they supply something that, that you, you find very encouraging. That's why you go back. That's why you do it again. That's why drug dealers know that if they can get you hooked for nothing, it won't be very long before you're gonna start paying and paying heavy.
Um, and it, and it can be anything. It can be alcohol the same way. I mean, um, it, it supplies. A need. And so you have to understand why am I doing it? It is for that need. And if that need, uh, if, if that something that's missing becomes, uh, a real need that you just can't do without anymore, that's the only way.
Then you can do, you can say, wow, I'm, I'm in it. Um, I heard sta Steve Gad one time, a great, great jazz drummer, and, and he rock drummer. Everybody's probably heard, for instance, he was the one that did, uh, with Paul Simon, 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover. And, uh, the, the famous drum beat there, Steve Gad and I went to school together and, uh, I heard him say once in an interview that when he got out, uh, when he got out of the Army and he started, uh, playing and commuting a lot to.
Play and do studio work. He found himself using drugs, uh, just to, to kind of relax, you know, because he was working so hard in long hours at night and driving long times and never knowing where your next gig is gonna come from and all that kind of stuff. And he said, I started, um, using drugs because I needed them, and I started, uh, using drugs in order to make money.
Then he said it very quickly in my life. I came to the point where I was making money in order to get, get drugs. It had changed. And for that reason, he had to, he had to go cold Turkey, and he did. This was great. He's a great artist, and, uh, but it was a tremendous amount of power. It may have been, I haven't, I haven't talked to him since I knew him, what, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 45 years ago.
But, um, it, it probably was one of the most courageous things he ever did in his life. And a lot of people have to know what that's going through. Yeah, it's 
[01:03:42] Jeremiah: definitely gonna be a challenge. And um, like you said, I think the best thing to do is just show them love and acceptance and, uh, try to let them know that they're important and, um, so that they don't, you know, go over the deep end as it seems like most cults end up doing, unfortunately.
[01:04:03] Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And, and with some tragic, tragic consequences sometimes. So 
[01:04:09] Jeremiah: if anyone wants to get a hold of your book, um, or contact you or whatever, how would they go 
[01:04:14] Jim: about doing that? Probably the easiest way to do it is just go to my website, which is jim willis.net, and that has, uh, links to my, uh, Uh, web, my YouTube page where we've done quite a few videos and also my Facebook page and, uh, but jim willis.net.
And also on that page there is a, all my books are listed and just by clicking on the book cover, it'll take you to wherever it's sold, usually Amazon or the publisher or whatever. Um, and they're all available. I think there's 20, 20 books down on the website. A new one just coming out probably within the next week or next week or two called, uh, Cosmo and Me.
And I'm working on a one that's gonna be out next year on, uh, near death experiences. But if they just go to the website, uh, and. I would really encourage people to do that because there is a contact page there and you know, you and I talk and, uh, you know, we, we can see each other, hear each other, but we don't know who's out there listening.
And I love to see who's, who's out there and who's, and they, they can contact me and I'm, I'm, uh, I'm still to the point where I can, I can respond to most, uh, emails. I get some wacky ones of course, but I can respond to most emails personally. And I just, I just love to build up a relationship with people who, uh, either like or dislike the conversation and, and, uh, we can talk a little and maybe by knowing that other people are out there, we can help other people who may, uh, want to hear the things that interest us.
Yeah. 
[01:05:47] Jeremiah: Hopefully, um, I think once I retire and don't have to like do my full-time job or whatever, yeah. I kind of want to. Try to attack MLM scams. I don't know why. I just don't blame you. I feel so strongly against them. Yeah. Yeah. That, that might be on my, uh, list of things to do before I die. 
[01:06:09] Jim: Yeah. If anybody does get a hold of the book, uh, uh, American Cults, my, my book, uh, I do a whole chapter on, uh, M MLM scans, you know, and, uh, uh, it, they're pretty prevalent.
[01:06:25] Jeremiah: Yeah. It's crazy how, like you said, there's like accepted, like there's no laws against them or there's no one going after them really. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Even though they like wrecked people's 
[01:06:39] Jim: lives and Yeah. Yeah. They can get you really over the, over the top. I would advise people to look into it, really would.
[01:06:47] Jeremiah: But yeah, thank you for coming on and speaking with us and talking about that. Well, thank you Jeremiah. It's always that, 
[01:06:52] Jim: always good to talk with you. Appreciate it very much. Thank you. 
[01:06:57] Jeremiah: Yeah. Thank you.