Building Opportunity: Fixing Arkansas’s Housing Rules

In this episode, host Ryan Norris talks with Dr. Emily Hamilton of the Mercatus Center and Duke McLarty, Executive Director of Groundwork in Northwest Arkansas. Together, they explore why affordable housing is so hard to build—and what Arkansas can do about it.

Dr. Hamilton brings a national perspective on how zoning and land-use rules drive housing costs, while McLarty shares how Groundwork is advancing smart, local solutions to expand housing options for working families.

If you’ve ever wondered why home prices keep climbing or how policy can make housing more attainable, this episode connects the dots between regulation, reform, and real opportunity for Arkansans.

To learn more and see how AFP-Arkansas can help you or your organization increase your impact in our state, email us at infoar@afphq.org or visit us at believeinar.com.

Transcript

Welcome to Believe in Arkansas, where we believe free people are capable of
extraordinary things.
Now, here is the host of Believe in Arkansas, Ryan Norris.
Hello, Arkansas. Welcome to an interesting episode of the Believe in Arkansas podcast,
where we believe three people are capable of extraordinary things. Today's episode is
titled Building Opportunity, Fixing Arkansas Housing Rules. And we're discussing how to
break down the barriers keeping affordable housing out of reach for so many
Arkansases. There's restrictive zoning, exploding costs, and of course population growth
that increases demand that's outrunning our supply. But more importantly, we're laying
out what works and can rebuild the housing supply without wrecking our neighborhoods.
If you want to understand why prices keep climbing and how Arkansas can actually
change the game, this is the conversation that you want to listen to here. Two
pieces of critical information about Arkansas and housing is Arkansas housing prices.
Home prices in Arkansas have climbed steadily over the last decade, rising about 69 %
statewide per the FHFA housing price index. And this increase has been driven by
population growth, especially in northwest Arkansas. There's a tight inventory, a
steady economic expansion there, and people are being attracted in our state. And
that's a good thing. In fact, we've seen population growth in the last 10 years
that is about 4 .3 % overall increase. And that's quite a significant amount.
We used to be less than 3 million. And now We're over three million people here in
the state of Arkansas, about 3 .1 million. And so this, every time we move someone
in, that means someone needs a home. And we are seeing, again, that supply is
dwindling. We need to do something about it. So today, to expand on this
conversation, I'm joined by two people who actually know how to improve housing
affordability in Arkansas. And first is Dr. Emily Hamilton from Mercatus Center. She
spent years dissecting how zoning and land use rules quietly jack up those housing
costs across the country. And she's got the data to prove it. And then there's Duke
McClarty executive director of ground work right here in northwest Arkansas. He's on
the ground every day turning smart policy into real homes. And Dr. Hamilton and Duke
McCarty, welcome to believe in Arkansas. Thanks so much, Ryan. Great to talk with
you both. Thanks, Thanks, Ryan. It's great to be here and good to see you again,
Emily. Well, thank you both for being guests on the show today. I know this is
going to be something people want to listen to. But before we get completely into
the questions about affordable housing, Dr. Hamilton, give us a little primer of
Mercatus and what it is and what they do. Sure. We are a research center based at
George Mason University in Northern Virginia. We cover lots of different aspects of
economic policy. And on our housing team, we focus primarily on regulatory constraints
to housing supply. So issues like zoning, permit approval processes,
and building code rules that all make it more difficult to build housing,
especially lower cost types of housing. We spend about half of our time on research
and the other half working with policymakers across the country, especially at the
state level. Well, see, that's awesome because a lot of times people are sitting
around going, why are housing costs going up? Why are, is my rent going up, you
know, year over year or at the end of my lease? And they don't understand those
dynamics. So I'm happy to have you here and Mercatus being represented and helping
us to explain that. And then Duke, in the practicality of things, tell us about
what groundwork is doing in northwest Arkansas and a little bit about its mission.
Yeah, it's a perfect pairing with Emily and I on here together.
Emily's doing the research, providing the data, providing the ideas, and my
organization, more on the ground here, advocating for these ideas, talking to our
local policymakers, talking to our state policymakers about actions that they can take
that are researched and tried and true by folks like Emily and her team to better
the lives of Arkansas throughout the state. We are currently the housing workstream
of the Northwest Arkansas Council. This is a business membership organization. And
essentially, Ryan, we're the business community's response to this housing challenge.
A few years ago, there were still places throughout Northwest Arkansas where you
could get a home for a fraction of what you can today. In some of our communities,
the average sale prices approaching $600 ,000. those same communities you could have
purchased a home for $250 ,000 or $300 ,000 just five or six years ago. These are
the challenges our workforce faces financially every day. So we're approaching this
challenge as a pure supply -side challenge. Our supply has not cut up with our ever
-increasing population. And we don't want that population increase to stop. We need to
keep that coming. But we also need to ensure that when those folks arrive, there's
plenty of housing options in every community. So we can ensure that the quality of
life that we all enjoy across the state continues to be there for all of us. I
think you made an interesting point in there about your organization being part of a
business grouping of businesses that are interested in. A lot of times we talk about
affordable housing. There's some context that people may infer from that. But there's
another term that I think is also applicable, which is workforce housing. Where will
our workforce have a home when they get here? And that's a very important, you
know, sometimes messaging distinction to make here. It's not just about affordability.
Sometimes that can be misconstrued to include a bunch of other ideas that may not
be germane to the supply side of housing. And definitely in workforce.
That's clearly what we're trying to do.
and why do they matter for how much housing cost and where it can be built? Yeah,
so there are a lot of nationwide factors that are affecting housing affordability in
Arkansas and across the country. So there are factors like remote work and changes
that happened during the pandemic that have extended past it that have led to a
demand increase for residential space. That in addition to organic demand for people
wanting to move into Arkansas are a big factor in recent housing affordability
challenges. But these new factors are meeting longstanding policies like zoning rules
that are limiting how much housing can be built in each Arkansas locality and what
type of housing can be built. So these are rules that say, for example,
a single family house has to sit on a yard of a certain size, rules that severely
limit where multifamily housing apartments can be built across Arkansas cities and all
kinds of other regulations that just limit the amount of housing that can be built
and drive up the cost of housing that does get built. So there are a lot of
factors that are in the hands of state and local policy makers that could make it
possible to build more housing at prices more people can afford. In some of these
regulations, their intention may have been good. You You know, it could be about how
many parking spaces that you had to have in front of a home or something like
that. Or, you know, I've even had lawmakers talk to me about I wanted to have a
particular type of AC unit and we would have to totally re -change, you know, change
up almost the design of the home to accommodate such a thing because of regulations
that we don't think really mattered, but it mattered to City Hall in the way that
we put it together. You know, Duke, are we coming across some of that, you know,
in your experience? Yeah, I think it's worth also understanding, Ryan, many of these
rules have been in place for the better part of 50 or 60 years now.
And the idea that, you know, nothing has changed over that amount of time since
they were put in place, like a real reimagining of what these rules are and what
they should be. And like a real questioning, are these rules applicable to today?
Our household size across the country, and this is true in Arkansas, is significantly
smaller than it was when many of these rules were put in place. Many of these
rules are intentionally drafted to create single -family homes,
to create, you know, a certain neighborhood type. And we just don't need that
anymore. But the development community is still delivering that because those are the
rules of the road. And it's the path of the least resistance. So this is what's
being delivered. So if we know that our household size is shrinking, if we know the
way we're living our lives with ride share and all these other things that are now
available to our residents, why wouldn't we change the regulatory environment that
dictates what is being delivered to the market? Yeah. And that's true.
I failed to get to the specific details today when I was reading through this
little thread that I came across on X today. But there was a and talking about the
costs of the pricing of home and the value of homes. And he was making a point
that at the time that these houses were built and being measured against each other,
someone was making a comparison about the opportunity to buy a home now and how
much it costs versus back then. It's like you have to also factor in. They didn't
have age back back then. They didn't have all. They were smaller size. You know,
I've recently, I was able to travel to the at home of my grandparents. And I
looked at it. And it is about the size of my office space and not the size of
the home I currently live in. But they had, they actually had more kids in there
than that. And so very good point that these regulations are many times designed
around housing designs that just aren't relevant anymore.
That's right. That's right. And, you know, Emily touched on a Zoom workforce now.
You know, it's, these rules also were not accounting for people, you know, having a
home office, having a home business. You know, you traveled into a business at 9 o
'clock and you went home at 5 o 'clock. And that was, you know, day to day life
for most of our country. That's just not the case anymore. You know, but these
rules prohibit someone from potentially opening a home business, you know,
from from really using their property as as they so choose.
And that even extends to making alterations to the existing property in a way that
would better fit their uses today. Well, this tees us up for the question that I
want to ask Dr. Hamilton is, you know, how do these regulations affect what people
can do with their own land? You know, many times I'm like, hey, I want to do X
on my property. And I have to look at my local code and say, well, if I'm going
to build a fence, I've got to tick off all these things. And the libertarian side
of me does not appreciate that at all, you know, but I'm a good law buying
citizens. So I do what I need to do. But, you know, so how do those regulations
affect what we can do with our own private property. Yeah. Well, you mentioned a
couple of great examples there. And there are all kinds of ways of using residential
property that used to be just an extremely normal and accepted piece of owning a
house that now are no longer allowed under local zoning rules.
So, for example, it used to be very common that people would run their homes as
like boarding houses and take in renters to help cover the costs of the home and
to provide a low cost housing option for the people who took advantage of that.
People used to very commonly build basically a second unit at their home for a
family member or a renter, but now we have to have the like technocratic term
accessory dwelling unit, a great policy option that Arkansas just recently legalized
statewide to describe just building a little bit onto your home to make room for a
family member or a renter that isn't allowed under the very rigid roles that now
govern land use across many U .S. neighborhoods.
Well, I was, you know, talk about the ancillary dwelling unit. I was in this same
trip to see my, my grandparents' childhood home. I was born in the same city. And
they took me by where was the first home that I was brought to after the hospital.
And it was a studio apartment above a garage. And it was what my family could
afford at the time. And it was adequate, had everything that they needed. They were
a young family. And, well, I was the first child. So I'm really,
you know,
50 % increase in the size of our family when I came to be. And so now we have
abilities, as you said, to have ancillary dwelling units. I know, Duke, you've done
the work on that and that piece of legislation. Break that down for us. Like, what
does that mean? Ancillary dwelling units? What are some examples of that? Yeah, you
gave one of the best examples. And Ryan, I did not know that literally from day
one, you have been a supporter of gentle density housing. So I'm glad you started
early on this journey. There we go. Accessory dwelling units can also be called like
a granny flat, like a backyard cottage.
These, the kind of previous mentioned regulations in most of our communities have
dictated that single family homes have certain yard and lot sizes.
In In many instances, when our communities were still just several thousand people,
we had an abundance of land, it didn't matter. We're to the point where those
communities have grown to a point that we've got to better use that land that once
upon a time the city told us we had to have a lot, a certain size. And so this
is a fairly elegant solution to to bring another housing unit to that existing
property through the inclusion of a small backyard cottage,
you know, adding a living space over a garage as you were brought home to,
Ryan. It can also be if, say, an aging couple,
empty nest couple, has a large home, they can even redesign and reconfigure their
existing home to allow for another unit to be included internally.
So there's internal ADUs as well. And really the magic of ADUs and what's called
gentle density or missing middle housing is that it doesn't disturb the existing
neighborhood. It doesn't disturb the built environment around that site in a way
that, say, a large apartment building or something that's out of context with the
surrounding wood. But what it does is it brings potentially a member of that
critical workforce that you know, our service industry, our first responders, it
brings them back into our community and offers them an opportunity to be our
neighbors in a way that, you know, moving 20 or 30 miles outside of the city
center just does not afford them. And you're exactly right.
We were behind the legislation that got passed here in Arkansas in the 2025 session.
I couldn't be more proud of the support we had from Senator Bart Hester,
Representative Nicole Clowney, both stepped forward. I think it's important to mention
a bipartisan bill. These two politically could probably not be more opposite, but
they both came to solve for an issue that they were hearing from their constituents
in a way that very little legislation comes together these days.
You know, I recently talked to a city planner in one of our municipalities in
Northwest Arkansas, and they just implemented their ADU regulation,
and she has six applications on her desk already. This is not going to be a silver
bullet. There is not a silver bullet for this housing challenge, but it will lead
to incremental increase in housing production.
There are also benefits that it uses existing infrastructure. We're not having to
expend city budgets to extend sewage lines, extend electrical service.
So it's a pretty elegant, fiscally responsible and a good solution that we were
proud to put our name on. It creates also some potentially passive income for
families. So that's awesome. I think those are great examples. And, you know,
Dr. Hamilton, to piggyback on this, because we've talked about these ancillary
dwelling units, I really like this term gentle density. I think that's an interesting
concept. I haven't heard it frame like that, and that's really interesting concept.
But other states have started changing their rules to make house building of houses
easier. What are some of the most interesting examples you've seen and what kind of
results are they getting from that a building of new homes? Yeah.
Well, there's been a real surge in statewide policies of this type that are setting
some limited guardrails on the extent to which localities can block housing
construction to facilitate more supply at more affordable prices. Many of these laws
are so new that we can't say a lot about what these statewide reforms are meaning
for the housing markets just yet, but they're often based on successful local reforms
that we've learned a lot about. So one example is just this year,
Texas passed a statewide law allowing for smaller lots to be used for some of their
new subdivisions. And this is a huge factor in making starter home construction
feasible. Ryan, you mentioned your grandparents' home that is a small house,
but it might likely be on a pretty big piece of land. That was a really common
development pattern in the 20th century, was to have a relatively big piece of land,
but a small basic starter home that was affordable to middle income households at
the time it was built. But to Duke's point, the economics have just changed so much
that that's no longer an option for starter home construction. If we want to enable
small basic homes, land prices have gotten so expensive in many U .S.
urban areas. We need to be thinking about allowing people to have a much smaller
yard to enable is to be built on a much smaller piece of land.
And the place in the U .S. that has done this most successfully is the city of
Houston. They reduce their minimum lot size requirements down to 1 ,400 square feet
across the city. And they've seen 80 ,000 of these small lot homes built.
And as a result, Houston is the most affordable Sunbelt Metro for homebuyers.
And they have many policies that make Houston more open to housing construction than
lots of other U .S. cities are. But this starter home option is certainly an
important piece of it. And I think their local success helped inform the statewide
bill that does not go as far as Houston has, but enables a similar type of starter
home construction to happen across the state. See, and that's awesome.
So they're focusing in on how do we get families into their first home kind of
approach. And I have read up about Houston and they are having some success with
that. One of the other components large cities is that at you know there's the
older inner city and where the zones used to be for commercial or light industrial
and then the city has expanded outward into the suburbs kind of scenario you know
duke what can maybe cities think about doing in rezoning of those like commercial
and light industrial to possibly utilize them as areas we could build some homes.
Yeah, that's a perfect segue into, you know,
one of the state trends that I'm excited about. And Emily mentioned Houston and
Texas. I'm going to mention Texas again. They now allow for multifamily in
commercially zoned areas. So I want every listener right now to close your eyes
unless you're driving and think of this, this, you know, four lane, two in each
direction with a turn lane in the middle thoroughfare. We all drive down them every
day. Think of where the housing is on that thoroughfare. Like far too many of these
thoroughfares, The housing, the multifamily, the residential, simply is not allowed.
And it is time for us to reimagine what those could be.
You know,
if there were the option for a developer to put a small residential building on
that thoroughfare, they would absolutely do it. the businesses would be delivering
customers to their front door. The public transit would thrive because people actually
live on what is a natural transit line. But the reason they're not being delivered
is because too often that zoning code just says that has to be commercial activity
and multifamily residential housing is not a commercial activity.
So as that city expands and we need to reimagine kind of that central core,
one way to bring people back to that central core is to reconfigure that zoning
that will allow for this to be built.
It will create more predictability as the development community is exploring this.
The development community could do something along those commercial corridors, but it's
a risky process. You know, they have to ask for special permissions often from city
council. And, you know, the city is sort of telling them that's not what they want
there because the zoning doesn't align. So I think there's immense opportunity to
make some small changes like that. it will not impact the existing built environment,
you know, to bring some, some residential to those thoroughfares. Yeah,
I like that idea because I just think that it will help revitalize again. The
better parts of the city are usually on the expanding outward, you know, the
fringes. This allows us a chance to revitalize from the inward out again, kind of a
replenishing approach to how our cities are constructed. Totally. And to go to the
comment I made earlier about household size, this is an opportunity to also bring a
new generation into the community that, you know,
based on incomes alone would likely be on the far outskirts as their only housing
option. you know, household size is shrinking, but those younger generations,
when they're asked what their housing preference is, it is in an environment like
this where there's walkability to businesses and services. And, you know,
they don't rely on a car necessarily to get to and from everywhere. Well,
so we've, As we've been talking about this, there's a little bit of an interesting
little issue that keeps bobbing up and down. And Dr. Hamilton, I'll direct this at
you, that, you know, there's this debate, and I had this happen to me recently,
about who should be deciding what our housing policies are. So you have the local
government versus the state government. So how are states, how are they taking action
to get a balance there. Because I understand local controls and deferrence to the
state, how can we bring some balance to create the win -win scenario here?
Yeah. If we think about U .S. history of approach to this question,
we've swung really far in the direction of local governments having control over what
can be built where. If we go back to 100 years or so ago,
it was much more in the hands of property owners to decide how and how much they
wanted to develop their own land. And localities got their authority to come in and
regulate what can be built where across their jurisdictions from their states.
So when state policymakers are now stepping in with some limitations on this local
authority, it's really a return to property owners having more of a say about how
they would like to use their own land and allows them to better deliver what the
housing market is asking for. So in a way, it's a return to even more local
control at the level of the individual property owner saying this is how I think I
can put my investment to the best use. Well, you know,
I had a conversation at the Capitol just last week and I was mentioning about AFP's
interest in housing policy. And this lawmaker said, well, hey, I, I,
I,
of letting me do what I want to do with my land. Again, very libertarian kind of
leaning there. I'm cool with that. But I also have to be a good neighbor. You
know, I have to be a good neighbor. So how do, how are we going to communicate
the win -win of this scenario? Yeah, it's, it is certainly a challenge.
I will say, I think Emily absolutely nails it when the word local control is
directed to the property owner themselves and not the municipality or the government
that is responsible for that parcel.
You're exactly right. You know, state preemption was the vehicle by which the
accessory dwelling unit bill was passed. You know,
where I felt the tide changed with the conversation and where we started to get,
I thought, buy -in was when we started talking about who will live in these
accessory dwelling units. It is a college student who is returning to their hometown
that they've been priced out of. It is a aging parent who is not ready for full
-time care, but their kids want them close.
You know, it can be a stranger. It can be rented as another source of income,
as it was mentioned earlier in the conversation. They can also be built for less
than $150 ,000. And there is not a unit of housing being built that hits that price
point in a meaningful and regular way in the state of Arkansas.
And really, that's where the affordability starts to come into the conversation of
better land use, slightly more intense use of existing property.
And it was really that affordability piece. I think that was the tipping point in
the conversation around ADUs in this session. Well, it is a fascinating and hearing
out both sides. I mean, there's good compelling arguments on both sides. A lot of
anecdotal about why the cities want the ability to have that choice. And then
there's, of course, really good compelling reasons why the state should have the
ability to preempt some of that and make it to where we can build our homes. So
Dr. Hamilton, if Arkansas wanted to possibly increase our homes that we have and we
want to build out something that's affordable, what are a few realistic steps that
you would kind of outline for us and our lawmakers to follow.
Yeah, so we talked about the accessory dwelling units, allowing for smaller lot
sizes, and allowing apartment construction in commercial zones.
I think these are some of the best and most well -tested ideas that we have so
far. But another one is looking at permit approval processes and really digging into
what developers and home builders are running into across Arkansas localities and
identifying bottlenecks. I think that can be a really promising way to get rid of
red tape. And oftentimes the specific reform that's needed in this permit approval
process vein is not easy to identify. It can take a lot of research to figure out
what is going on with specific bottlenecks. Once it is identified,
I think this can be a much less politically controversial path for reform than some
of these other ideas that we've talked about because there's no constituency for red
tape. It's just kind of gum in the works that has built up over time.
So I think that's a really promising path to work on.
Another one that has similar affordability benefits as ADUs is identifying ways to
make manufactured housing more feasible to use in more places.
So that's a housing that's built to HUD's code and built in a factory.
Historically, it was often referred to as mobile homes. But today, these homes are
really high quality, really attractive, but nonetheless, they're about 30 % less
expensive than a site -built home of the same size and same quality.
Arkansas already is a leader in preventing aesthetic design requirements that can make
manufactured housing infeasible to use. but again doing some work on small lot,
low -cost subdivisions to make these homes feasible and looking at other zoning
regulations that might make them impossible to use in a given locality,
I think, is another promising route. Yes, I agree with you on that red tape,
and I can't find the citation now, but I had heard one time on a radio broadcast
from the National Association of Home Builders saying that about 25 % of a home was
just in the government regulation components of it. So no additional square footage,
no additional amenities. That just cost them that amount of time, effort, fees, et
cetera, to even add that. So do regulatory reform. That could be a component that
we could look at here in the state, but what are some of these additional steps
that from your perspective we should be looking at? Yeah, and Emily nailed two of
the items that I would have mentioned, but if I can just maybe put a slightly
finer point as it pertains to Arkansas on both of those. The approval process,
she's spot on. The permitting approval process needs to be,
it doesn't necessarily need to be just wholesale, burn it down.
There's no approval process. It needs to be in place. But looking at what some
other states have done, they have front -loaded kind of that debate. Looking at
Montana in particular, where cities that need must have a land use map,
a zoning map. They debate that map when it is being created. They debate it
publicly. The public comes to City Hall. Everyone voices their preference. But once
that map is adopted, the development community then will propose projects that fit
that map. And there's no more room for debate. We're not going to debate something
again that has already been agreed upon by the community. And that was a role that
the state, you know, stepped in and played and said, you need to adhere to these
already debated and agreed upon maps. I think another idea that is starting to take
hold in a few pockets throughout northwest Arkansas is an idea of pattern zones.
And This is where the city maintains a catalog of development plans that have
already gone through the approval process. And a individual landowner doesn't even
have to be a developer can go in and say, I have an extra lot. Can I look at
your pattern book and point to a design and say, I'd like to build that on this
piece of property that I there's there's no debate you know it's already been
approved and you can pull a building permit and find a builder and and get to work
um what that gets at and emily mentioned this is just bringing predictability
bringing um that process uh to make it as smooth and and user -friendly as possible
um i also think our state she mentioned um you know the HUD standard of
manufactured homes, we need to create a modular standard and a modular code in our
state. This is very common. Many other states have them, but this will allow a
modular facility to build to an Arkansas state inspection standard and be placed
anywhere in the state right now if you were to to explore modular in the state of
arkansas you still have to build it to that the building code of the municipality
where that modular unit is going to be placed um so bringing this to the state
level with the state inspection seal um would open up and avail the entire state uh
to deployment of those those units uh There's neighboring states that have this in
place that we're looking at.
zoning and development rules that we can we can go and revisit those and see do
they make sense based on the evolving nature of homes and of families some of these
rules again are 50 60 years maybe even older then allow for different types of
housing and housing sizes and where they're kind of where they're placed and then
balancing the local and the state input and control is very important but there is
a way of having a win -win scenario. Then, of course, we've just kind of finished
up here with some regulatory reform. So these are all awesome concepts. They are
probably very detailed. I know that they are. So if listeners wanted to get more
information from each of you and learn more about housing policy and how to contact
you and some of the content that you've already created, Dr. Hamilton, How can they
reach out to you or reach out to Mercatus to get some policy ideas? Yeah,
all of our housing research is available on Mercatus .org,
especially listeners might be interested in a publication we put out each year called
our menu of options for state housing for state policymakers. And that covers a lot
of the ideas that we've discussed today. And for those who want to know more, you
can go into the footnotes on each of those ideas to see a lot more information
about what's been implemented and how it's working. I'm also on blue sky if anybody
wants to talk housing policy in real time. Awesome.
And so Duke, same question for you. How can listeners find out more about groundwork
and what you're working on here in the state of Arkansas? Yeah, really simple
.groundwork .org, groundwork .org. Under the learns tab,
we've been fortunate enough and have done a ton of events bringing in national
experts. Emily, Dr. Hamilton was one of the experts we brought in in 2023.
All of those events are recorded, put on our website, put on our YouTube channel.
I'd encourage listeners to check us out there. And we're really excited.
In 2026, we're taking our work statewide in Arkansas. You know,
we have been solely focused on Northwest Arkansas. But so much of this can apply to
all corners of the state. And we're going to take that work on in this next year
and are thrilled to get in every community across the state and try to deliver more
homes across the state. I think that's an awesome and noble cause. And I look
forward to partnering with each of you as we educate more of Kansans about the
issues of housing affordability and some of these solutions that are some of the low
-hanging fruits some of them may take us a little bit of time to get to but i
appreciate the time from each of you appreciate our listeners listening in and this
is again ryan norris closing out another episode of believe in arkansas where we
believe that free people are capable of extraordinary things Thank you for joining us
for Believe in Arkansas, where we believe free people are capable of extraordinary
things. If you believe in Arkansas and would like to help unlock our state's
potential, go to www .orgiveanar .com to learn more and join the movement today.