#102 - Gabrielle Johnson: Disability Justice in Animal Welfare

The animal training industry is typically on board with non-human learners being individuals and meeting those individuals where they are when it comes to training. But what about our human learners? 

In this episode, Gabrielle Johnson talks about how we can meet our human learners where they are and how to support disability justice in the animal welfare industry.

You can find the full episode show notes here. 

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Transcript

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[00:00:00] Gabrielle: And so, I really liked what you said in the beginning, you know, about the defensiveness that can come with learning something new. So my best hope is that people would. Recognize that. work with recognizing that being uncomfortable is not the same thing as being unsafe, and to do a lot of listening and approaching with curiosity to learn more about the things that may have piqued their interest so that they can, turn around and enhance their own lives and the lives of those around them.

[00:00:21] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:00:39] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:00:40] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Gabrielle Johnson. Gabrielle Johnson works with families worldwide whose dogs display aggressive or reactive behaviors or live with dysregulated nervous systems, like chronic stress, trauma, hyper and hypo arousal, anxiety disorders, etc. With a special focus on intra household aggression. They particularly enjoy working with human clients who are chronically or mentally ill, disabled, or neurodivergent. Gabrielle is a certified dog behavior consultant through the International Association of Applied Behavior Consultants and holds a bachelor's degree in psychology and sociology.

They participate regularly in continuing education opportunities and regularly collaborate with other pet professionals. Like us. Like this episode. Y'all, I'm so excited for you to listen to today's episode with Gabrielle. It is so cool the work that they are doing with Disability Justice, and I think this is where animal training is going with more focus and emphasis on how not only are our non human animals individual learners, but our human animals that we're working with are also individual learners and we should be treating them as such.

So in this episode, you're going to hear Emily and Gabrielle talk about what is disability justice and what does it have to do with animal welfare, how Emily thought she was balancing on a seesaw when she was really just standing on one end of the seesaw. The difference between a charity model and a mutual aid model. And how the arguments about training methodologies are all missing the points. Alright, here it is, today's episode, Gabrielle Johnson, Disability Justice in Animal Welfare.

[00:02:45] Emily: Okay, tell us your name, pronouns, and pets.

[00:02:49] Gabrielle: I am Gabrielle Johnson. My pronouns are they them and my pets currently are Shadow Spock, Cyan and Amori. 

[00:02:59] Emily: Four cute dogs who get to go trouncing around the mountains of Eastern, the Eastern United States. I, I have life envy of your dogs. I'm, I'm, I'm what I'm trying to say is that I'm envious of your dog's lives. Yeah.

All right, tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:03:15] Gabrielle: I, Started working with dogs, probably in my, in my late teens, I was living on a military base and, there can be a lot of instability for pets in that community. and so, it started with a, like, Hey, We're moving and we can't take this dog and we don't want him to go to the shelter. Could he stay with you and you could find him a new home? And I was like, sure, absolutely. Of course. and so it sort of started in that way. I got my start, with dogs sort of in the rescue community, the shelter community. I did a lot of like education and advocating, fostering, volunteering, traveling, fundraising, that sort of thing.

in a, in a few different communities. and that was very cool. we did some community outreach work, working with dogs specifically, who were part of the houseless population. and that was really, really cool. and then that sort of evolved into dog walking and pet safety. and we started managing a team of dog walkers and pet sitters and, our team sort of became known for being able to support the dogs with more complex behavior needs, which then necessitated a cycle of learning more about dogs behavioral needs.

I took a little dip into, um, some not so evidence based training, and then, found my way to evidence based training, so I'm a crossover trainer. And now I, have my own business, Best Life Dog Services, and, I specialize in aggressive behavior and nervous system dysregulation. so that's like hypo and hyper arousal, trauma, chronic stress, anxiety disorders, and aggressive behavior.

and I am really fortunate to get to work with so many of my clients virtually because that's a really good fit for that type of work. So I get to work with clients all over the world, which is so cool. I live here in Richmond, Virginia with, my four dogs and my partner and my beautiful community of friends and colleagues.

[00:04:59] Emily: I love it. And I love you. So, 

[00:05:02] Gabrielle: I love you. 

[00:05:03] Emily: yay. So you and I are fairly new friends. I think we've known each other for about a year or so. Does that sound right? I feel like, I feel like it's been about a 

[00:05:12] Gabrielle: that sounds about right. 

[00:05:13] Emily: Who knows? Time has no meaning. But. All right. Yeah, what is time anyway? Okay, but one of the reasons that it was like friend love at first sight was because of our shared commitment to good faith, curiosity based conversations.

So even though we immediately started diving into pretty heavy conversations from the get go, like the neuro spicy friends that we are, those conversations felt safe and and even fun because we could explore these topics without fear of judgment or criticism. Even in moments where we were misaligned or we had differing perspectives, and I'm bringing this up here because I think a lot of times when we're talking about issues of social justice and animal welfare, it can bring up a lot of feelings and a lot of fear of being judged and criticized, or conversely, feelings of judgment and criticism.

Like, stick to training dogs, what are you doing, getting political, quote unquote. All of those, all of those feelings get drudged up whenever we talk about social justice and how it relates to animal welfare. So I wanted to just start this conversation by inviting our listeners to join us in that space of curiosity and good faith, because we're not here to judge or criticize anyone. But we are here to share a different perspective and perhaps challenge some assumptions that are common in our society. So, first of all, can you please explain what disability justice is and why it matters to animal welfare?

[00:06:46] Gabrielle: I feel like before I do, I should give a bit of sort of a caveat up front. and that is that I am a canine behavior consultant and that is, that is my specialty. I am not an expert in disability justice or mutual aid or some of these topics that we will get into. They're definitely a special interest of mine.

I have done a lot of reading. I have done a lot of trying to put these frameworks into practical application in my life. But what I am bringing to the table here is the intersection of those interests with being a pet professional. and so my best hope is that our conversation today, if someone is new to or getting interested in some of these topics like disability justice or mutual aid, that this is sort of a springboard for them to then go and learn more from people who have been doing this work for longer than I've been alive. and I will definitely be sure to share some of my favorite resources. but it's particularly important in these areas to learn from the people who are most impacted by systems of oppression, and have the most experience and knowledge and insight, into doing this work. So particularly Black, Brown, Indigenous, queer, trans people.

[00:08:00] Emily: I love you so much. Thank you for saying that for many reasons. I'm going to just gush at you about you for a second. So, as, as you know, and everybody who listens to our podcast or is in PETPro or has ever heard anything I've ever said ever knows one of my special interests is epistemology or the theory of learning how we know what we believe is true.

And I just think it's fundamental to everything because whatever the decisions we're making in our life, they should be based on good information, right? And so one of the things that our profession frequently lacks, not always, not everybody. There are some people who are really, really good at it.

But as a whole, what our industry lacks is that showing your work, showing like provenance of where you got the information, and uplifting, and amplifying, and directing people to the people that you learned from. The other thing I love about what you just said is also a special interest of mine, which is the intersection between expertise and parallel fields and expertise in our field.

And that I think is so important because absolutely I would love to have experts in parallel fields come onto our podcast. First of all, it's financially prohibitive in many cases, to hire the, the OG people. But secondly, the people who are experts in those fields aren't experts in animal behavior or animal welfare.

And so what I'm interested in, in an animal welfare podcast is talking to the people who have applied the, the concepts and the things that they've learned from those parallel fields. to our field to help people connect the dots and understand why that external information is important and applicable to what we do.

So I love that you so beautifully articulated why you're here, why I'm talking to you instead of the disability justice experts, because you have the expertise of connecting those dots of how you apply disability justice concepts and that framework. to our profession. So thank you so much for saying that. I, I appreciate it so much and I'll, I will shut up now and let you continue.

[00:10:11] Gabrielle: No, I appreciate you very much. And it's, something that I definitely see echoed in, you know, one of my favorite things about reading like disability justice literature is that like, it is a constant hearkening back to like, where did I learn this from? Who contributed to this worldview for me? It's almost like a love letter. And I find it to be very different from how, sometimes I see people taking credit, or not giving credit, for their, for the information they're sharing, in different styles or different genres. so it's, I have to, I have to kind of send it right back to say this is something that I've seen modeled and find really beautiful.

[00:10:46] Emily: Yeah, I love that. Okay. So, sorry for the tangent back, back on track. What is disability justice and why does it matter in animal welfare?

[00:10:55] Gabrielle: So disability justice is a term coined by black, brown, queer, trans members of the original disability justice collective, which was just founded in 2005 by Patty Byrne, Nia Mingus, Eli Clare, and Sebastian Margaret. and disability justice essentially states that all bodies are unique and essential, and that all bodies have strengths and weaknesses.

and needs that must be met. there are ten pillars of disability justice. and so those are intersectionality, leadership of the most impacted, anti capitalism, cross movement solidarity, wholeness, sustainability, cross disability solidarity, interdependence, collective access, and collective liberation.

Disability justice is, it's a social movement, right? It's, and it's different from the disability rights movement. so the disability rights movement focused primarily on affecting change through legislation. And in contrast, the disability justice movement is inherently intersectional and use the systems that legislate as inherently problematic in and of themselves.

So that's a bit about disability justice. the reason that it matters, in our work as pet professionals or for pet parents seeking the support of pet professionals, is in part because 26 percent of the U. S. population, according to the CDC, is disabled. so disabled people are professionals and they are pet parents, seeking support. that may or may be less obvious externally. but it is, it is a disability is a human condition. And so since we are humans working with humans and, we are, are people working with humans who are living with pets. I think it's inherently important in that way. And it also matters because ableism doesn't just impact disabled people.

Mia Mingus, one of the founders of Disability Justice, says that ableism is connected to all of our struggles because it undergirds notions of whose bodies are considered valuable, desirable, and disposable, which I love, and I think really points to the idea that this isn't like an us versus them sort of thing, like a disabled versus non disabled sort of thing.

it really, this is really impactful and important for all of us to understand these, these tenants are.

[00:13:15] Emily: Yeah, I love that. And I think that's a really important thing to bring up, like in general across intersections. Oppression doesn't just hurt the oppressed. It also hurts the oppressors. So if you think about how damaging misogyny is to cis men because of the toxic masculinity that comes out of misogyny, and if you think about how damaging white supremacy is to white people because they give up their actual identities and their actual legacy and their actual heritage to take on this mantle of whiteness. And so they lose themselves in the process of trying to, take away from other people as well. So across, across the board, what you're saying really applies, that like dismantling systems of oppression isn't just for the oppressed, it's also for the oppressors, because we all do better when we function as, as a species we were designed to function, which is like, we are a social species and social groups benefit from mutual aid from helping each other. Right. So I, that, that's a really important thing to hear is like disability justice. Isn't just for the disabled people. It's also for able bodied people for so many different reasons. 

And okay. I love that so much. So my follow up question to that is what are some things that we can do as animal welfare professionals and business owners to, to move forward that, or to participate in disability justice and improve accessibility and, Be active allies, like all the things to our disabled clients, colleagues, and even the non humans, right? So how do we, how do we apply this disability justice framework 

[00:14:59] Gabrielle: love that question. You know, I think one of the very first things is recognizing exactly what you just said, which is that all oppression is connected and does not just affect those oppressed. So, I think, sort of, kind of a next step or a sidestep of that is recognizing that, Digging into disability justice, which is inherently intersectional, that's the first pillar, also necessitates digging into anti racism work.

Um, it also involves unpacking misogyny. It also involves unpacking, all of these different systems of oppression because they are not separate from one another because people are not separate from one another in these identities. Um, right. So intersectionality is a term coined, by Kimberley Crenshaw, Crenshaw.

And it was used initially to describe her experience as a black woman and that being black and being a woman created this sort of third identity, right? With these intersections versus being, you know, just black, which like you couldn't even be, you inherently are also like, there are going to be other things and then, or being just a woman and you see how we can't really separate that out. and so I think recognizing that and, and, Being aware of that is a really important first step. I think as part of that, that involves unpacking your own stuff. and so that means growing and healing and unpacking, you know, our, our presumptions, and recognizing that In doing nothing in, in just being sort of neutral, we will inherently do harm, because of the systems that were existing in.

And so it's not enough to just say, I'm not going to be, say, overtly ableist or overtly racist or whatever it might be. We also need to. unpack what that looks like and find all the ways that we're engaging in ableism or racism or homophobia or transphobia or whatever it may be, without even recognizing it, without even realizing it.

there, Was a study, I cannot remember the information off the top of my head, but there was a study that looked at, drivers reaction times to pedestrians in a crosswalk and found that, um, drivers breaked later and less hard, darker someone's skin was in the crosswalk, which is like, I don't think we're most people are out here driving around going like I'm going to be less safe. I'm going to devalue more the person walking in front of me that's not a, I don't think for the vast majority of people a conscious thought. But I think. That is just that that's something that is happening as a result of growing up under white supremacy. And so that's something we have to actively unpack or we will do harm.

we're going to engage in harm unintentionally if we're not doing that work. and that involves a lot of personal investment, in one's own growth and healing. And so something that I've seen, I think that can be really tricky is I've seen a lot of well intended folks in our industry. Trying to add on sort of, maybe not explicitly a disability justice framework, but they're trying to like do more D. E. I. type of things right? but as sort of like an addendum to what they're already doing and, um, It, it doesn't work super well like that because there are, there's already harm in the existing structures that needs to be unpacked and examined. And so this can't be an afterthought. It has to be built into the foundation of the way we approach things.

so I think doing that work, which I hate to present that as like step two, you know, it's, it's definitely not like a little box you can just check off that's a big deal. But I think that's so vital. and then I think maybe a bit more practically, although I think that's practical guidance as well, but, perhaps a more succinct step might be, to really take a collaborative approach.

So for pet professionals to take a collaborative approach with their clients, a collaborative approach with other professionals, for pet parents to look for a pet professionals who are taking a collaborative approach with them. And, and really to center the leadership of the most impacted, which is the second pillar of disability justice. and in the intersection of, you know, the, the, the realm of pet professionals that can say for me as a pet professional, recognizing that I might have a lot of information about intra household aggression, um, or whatever the case may be, but my client has the lived experience of living with their dogs, and, and they know what is sustainable to them. They know what is accessible to them. they know in many, many ways their dogs better than me. I know dogs as a species. They know their dogs. 

And so we both bring something really valuable to the table and creating a collaborative effort is, is vital. Not only for the well being of the animal ultimately, but also for the well being of the relationship, for the professional not to be burning out, for the, the pet parent themselves to feel heard and respected and valued, for everyone's safety, I mean, there are just so many reasons why that collaborative approach is, is imperative, and within that, we as pet professionals still need to recognize the inherent power dynamic that exists. as paid professionals. And so it's a lot to balance and I would just kind of redirect us back up to that previous recommendation of unpacking our stuff because to be able to engage in those kinds of relationships, I think, requires a lot of unpacking. It did for me anyway. 

And then kind of also in a practical vein, I would say being prepared to offer different accommodations to clients and to model asking for your own accommodations. And again, these are not things that are just for disabled people. one of my dear friends and colleagues, Adri, of Helping Hands Alberta, train service dogs, and, and one of the most beautiful things that I have seen them do, is, well, they've done a lot of beautiful things, but one of the beautiful things that I think they do is that they model their own accommodation needs in their onboarding paperwork, which really frees up their clients to feel more comfortable after seeing that modeled, um, To ask for what they need. and I think that's so important. And so being prepared to understand what different people might need to be successful, by listening to those people. and if it's not something that we're familiar with, we can just be open to the idea because the person, often we'll know what they need, or we can help them figure out what they need.

But as someone who sometimes struggles with black and white thinking. I think it can be really easy to get in kind of a rigid mindset of this is how we do things. And that lack of flexibility that lack of really what it ends up being is a lack of creativity, a lack of imagination can really limit us. So I think being prepared for those things and really listening to leadership of the most impacted. 

And then I think to using for those of us who have, I mean, everyone has privilege in one way or another. And so finding those spots where we have privilege and then using that privilege to speak up and advocate for others when it is safe for us to do so, I think is also really important.

[00:21:46] Emily: Thank you so much. There are so many things that you said that I want to just like pull the thread, and I'm afraid I'm going to forget them all because as you were talking, I'm just like trying to maintain this running list in my head of things I want to harken back to, but, but one of the things that I really found like that I resonate with a lot and that we actually talk about a lot in Pet Pro and we teach people how to do in Pet Pro is build that collaborative relationship and listen to our learners and try to understand what their reality is and what their needs are.

And what I tell clients all the time, and I teach my team to tell clients is I'm an expert in behavior. You are an expert in your pets and the best way for us to be effective is for us to combine our respective expertise. And so like that, I, I'm so aligned with you on that, the importance of collaboration.

And I think this really strikes to the core. Of why we train the way we do, because I think the sort of like conversations that happen about like the kind of internet wars about like balance training versus, forced retraining or whatever we want to call it. I think they're really missing the point because the argument is hyper focusing on operant consequences, which is such.

A small facet of behavior, and it doesn't really speak to learner experience. And so, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who is in the process of crossing over recently, and she was talking Telling me things that I've heard before and that I used to say when I was in my journey of crossing over, which is like, everybody talks about pain and fear and fallout.

But like when I use this pressure release training, like the dog isn't feeling pain, the dog isn't afraid the dog is really engaged. And I was like, okay, so it's about the same pressure as a tactile cue. So why do you feel that the pressure release is More effective than why not just use that same amount of pressure.

That's not causing pain or fear as a tactile cue. And her response was, well, we usually try just a cue first, and then we move to pressure release when the cue didn't work. And I was like, OK, that is it. That is everything that is central to the difference between our philosophies. Because for me, as an enrichment based trainer, Whose primary goal is reducing harm and increasing welfare and well being and allowing animals to meet their own needs and empower them to have control over their lives.

Their ability to say no is the most important thing. And when we take away their ability to say no, we also take away our ability to ask them why they're saying no. And discover more about their experience and what it is. And that is so applicable to our human learners as well. Like usually when I'm having this conversation, I'm talking about animal training philosophies, but that is so important to our, our human learners as well.

Our clients and our colleagues, when they, when we don't let them say no, we don't get to ask them why they're saying no. And, and that is everything. That is, that is fundamental. To the whole approach of equitable, egalitarian enrichment based community, not just behavior change, but community in general.

So I just had to say that because like, I, I love that so much. The another thread that I want to pull with you is actually a kind of an additional question that I have for you, which is one of the things that I've been hearing a lot, which I'm very sympathetic to. I don't actually know the answers and I'm not expecting you to know the answers either, but I would love to hear your thoughts about, I've heard several people say either just out into the world or directly to me that that ability to do that.

That labor, the internal work of like examining ourselves and healing ourselves and whatever that in and of itself is a privilege and a lot of people don't have that privilege and I've even had a couple of professionals say to me, what you are asking us to do or what you were expecting of us requires us to be really, really good at our jobs and my response to that was like, Yes, we should be good at our jobs.

If we're going to charge people money, like at first, my, my kind of knee jerk response to that was a little bit snarky, right? Like, yeah, we should be good at our jobs. Like we should be right. And, and like their response really humbled me because they were like, well, yes, but I don't have the privilege to get there.

I don't have the means. I don't have the time. I don't have the bandwidth. I don't have the car. So like, how do I, how do I continue? Making a living. The thing is like, I think we all agree that, or at least you and I, I can't speak for everybody who listens, but that capitalism is, is damaging. And also we exist in a capitalist society.

So the, the feedback that I've gotten is expecting people to spend all of this emotional energy and time and cognitive. Load on self improvement, is, is a privileged position. And I'm like, okay, yes. And what I'm talking about is, is returning to like indigenous practices, which we, I would not have never make a claim that indigenous people.

are privileged in, in terms of like the kind of privilege we're talking about, the classism privilege, right? Or classist privilege. So, so that's like something that I've been grappling with and listening to and processing. What are your thoughts about that? How we would, how we would respond to that very, very valid concern. 

[00:27:30] Gabrielle: Yeah, yeah. well, so, gosh, I think I'll start by saying I definitely don't feel like I have the answer. So I'm glad I'm glad that you are not expecting one, you know, in terms of like a solution. and I imagine that the answer is really difficult. Different for everyone in terms of how do we navigate that?

Because I think that in doing that growth and that healing work and making ourselves both, both, both healing ourselves internally through that, and also enabling us to connect with others more authentically and in community, I think is vital to our survival. and I recognize that under a capitalist model and where we are right now.

Even if something is necessary for our survival, and I would put that under like, like a basic inherent need all over the place. People's basic inherent needs are not getting met. and, and so, uh, that being the reality also doesn't necessarily make it more accessible. but in terms of like, you know, I think, I think I just want to with, with acknowledging that also highlight that I think doing that work in whatever measure we can, is ultimately strengthening and empowering to us and ultimately should support our already unmet needs.

and, and is a big part of community building. and so I think there's, there's that piece. And then, gosh, this does, this does actually remind me of a few, I have seen this, in, in, there's some different stories coming to mind is what I'm trying to say. And I won't share anyone's specific story, but I have certainly seen situations, um, recently even in my, in my work.

where people might be perpetuating harm, because because of trauma, because of unhealed wounds, because of a lack of digging into some of these, you know, internalized or, um, interpersonal, you know, ableism or, or whatever the case may be. and absolutely one of the things that came up for me was, you know, You know, first, next thought was, you know, like, this is where that's coming from.

And in my role as a professional, it was like, helpful for me to, like, be able to sort of recognize that, um, to create additional, like, space and grace and, and recenter how I approached the person or the people in these different scenarios with compassion, and, and creativity. But definitely the next thought was that in these situations, none of these people are in situations where their basic needs are being met or where they are, including safety right there.

Their need for safety isn't even necessarily always being met. And absolutely, how can we be like, oh, well, prioritize your trauma work so like you stop doing harm, like when they're there needs for like things like food or secure housing aren't necessarily met or a need for safety. I think, and Ramirez maybe at one point, um, I heard him give a talk about kind of like traveling around the world to different communities.

And at one point was talking about how I think, and forgive me. Ken Ramirez, if I'm butchering any of this story, I'm paraphrasing here, um, it was a long time ago, but I, I believe he had traveled somewhere essentially where, you know, people were not getting the medical care that they needed, like on the large.

And so he recognized sort of this hypocrisy and coming and saying like, you need to vaccinate your dogs when that would have been like a world above the care that those people were receiving themselves. And, and so I think that's a really important thing to take note of. And I wish I had it. I mean I think probably the answer is fixing our systems or not fixing our systems but maybe creating entirely other systems but that feels like a really big answer so.

I'll just stick to, I don't know. but, but I think just because we don't have a solution doesn't mean that it's something that we should either ignore, on both sides. I think we shouldn't give up on on trying to do that work, ourselves, you know, in whatever measure we can. And I think also that we shouldn't pretend like that isn't an issue or a barrier, and, and should take that into account in our, in being gentle with ourselves and also being compassionate in our relationships with others.

[00:31:19] Emily: Yeah, I love that. And it reminds me of a quote from a book called hope in the dark by Rebecca Solnit, where she's talking about like, that despair is a kind of impatience. And so this idea that we're just gonna like, fix ourselves in by just like going to therapy and like working really hard. And I don't know, like, getting on a diet regime and whatever, like, I think that is, that is setting us up to feel despair because it is a kind of impatience.

So what I'm hearing from you and that I'm tying back to Rebecca Solnit is Is this idea of like, let's just focus on the things that we can change that we have control over that. We have the bandwidth for now and celebrate the, the, the tiny little things that we can change. Like, if we can just push the needle a little bit, we need to celebrate those wins.

That's another thing. Rebecca talks about a lot. She's not speaking. In terms of behavior analysis, but essentially what she's saying is like, if we want to maintain this, like push for change, we need a high rate of reinforcement. We need to celebrate the small wins as we go, instead of ignoring them and just like pushing towards one huge win at the end.

And I was like, yeah, that that's behavior. Yep. Yeah, I knew that. I knew that. Like that. Yeah. Just applying it to my own life maybe is a little bit harder. But yeah. But yeah, like, it was, I was like, Oh, this is like a pretty basic concept that I understood about like animal training, and it never occurred to me to apply it to social change.

Right. But, but yeah, I, I love that, that we can just say, yeah, it is a problem. We acknowledge it's a problem. Again, this conversation is not about judging anybody who's in a space where they feel like they can't Work on themselves right now. The, the point is not to judge or criticize. The point is to acknowledge that difficulty say we don't have the answers, but we can all just do the best we can in the moment and celebrate our teeny tiny approximations towards our end goal.

And I feel, I feel like, I feel like that's a good, we can leave that there, like, do you agree that that's we can say like, that's the best we can do right now and we can always revisit this moving forward in our lives.

[00:33:26] Gabrielle: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Also, I just have to say I have that book and when someone has a book that I also have or, or the other way around, I have a book that I just, I feel like it gives me a glimmer. I get so happy.

[00:33:38] Emily: Yes. Yeah. I, I feel like everybody should read Hope in the Dark and one of her other books, A Paradise Built in Hell, which I always want to call by its subtitle, which is The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster. That for some reason, I remember the subtitle, but I always forget the main title. But I think like everybody should read Hope in the Dark and A Paradise Built in Hell.

They have pulled me out of some pretty dark spots in my life.

Yeah. Okay, so, we've been talking more broadly about the application of disability justice to our field. I want to get a little more personal. I want to narrow down the scope a little bit, because, I have multiple chronic illnesses that are like a cascading domino effect from two different genetic issues.

And on top of that, I'm neuro spicy as hell. That's why you and I clicked insta clicked. Cause we have, we have compatible neuro spiciness. Our spices work together well in a dish. And so I, I've been on, and I still am on a long journey to strike the balance between Knowing when I need to advocate for myself by asking for or expecting accommodations versus when I need to learn or, or improve skills to take responsibility for myself.

And that's a really hard balance to strike because I've seen the damage that can be caused both by having a victim mentality or this kind of performative victim hood of like, Oh, somebody is expecting me to do something that, I couldn't possibly do because I'm nervous, spicy. And I see the damage that that kind of mentality can cause where it's like, I, I can't do anything about this.

I just need everybody else around me to, to do it for me. Which I have, I have been harmed by people who have had that mindset. And so I'm very aware of that mindset and I don't want to exist in it. But on the other hand, that bootstraps mentality of like personal responsibility and you do it yourself and like.

Like it doesn't work for anybody. It's so harmful. Like it's, it's such a privileged mindset. Like just because I'm able bodied and I have, I have the financial means and the resources to do something without any help right now in this moment. I've had lots of past help that have allowed, has allowed me to now presently do something alone.

Obviously, I don't have to, I don't have to explain why that mentality is harmful, right? So to me, I'm, I've, I've been struggling. My whole life for like how to strike the balance between those two mindsets, because I don't want to be incapacitated by my, my reality, my body, my brain. But I also don't want to pretend that like, I can, I can do all things.

If I just have the willpower, I can make it happen. Like that's just patently false. I can't make it happen. Right. What advice do you have to help me and anybody else who might be experiencing that same sort of internal battle? How do, how do we find that balance?

[00:36:49] Gabrielle: yeah, yeah. Oh, I think it's such a good question. This, this question, when, you know, you sent it so that I could see sort of ahead of time and get my thoughts in order, sent me journaling. This is such a good question and I want to reiterate here that I am, I am, you know, in some ways just some guy right and so, this is this is my lived experience, which I think holds a lot of value, definitely.

but it should not be. Mistaken for like therapeutic advice. so I think the first thing that really comes up for me is, really defining and sort of operationalizing these two different mindsets. And, you know, I think one thing that come came up for me right away is the term victim mentality it made me have like a really, like, I felt like really activated. but like, because. It was coming from someone who I have like so much trust and safety with. It was much easier than it would have been in an unsafe relationship or whatever. I didn't have that foundation for me to go, okay, what does this, what does this actually mean? How are we operationalizing this and why is this so activating to me?

And so then, you know, like I'm like journaling and such, it's such a good question. And. I realized that most of the time when I hear the term victim mentality, it's, it has for me historically been used to either deny me or someone else support that they need. and then I started digging into that a little bit more and I thought about how you know victimhood is not an amoral position, right, it is, generally, inherently something that is out of our control. And so, to ascribe the mentality that one might hold after being victimized and comparing that to something that we are saying is a harmful and less desirable state of mind, almost Felt like a bit of a slam at being a victim. And sort of like this idea that like, if something bad happens to you, you should just kind of like suck it up and move on.

So I think that term actually kind of may stem from that bootstrap mentality and that sort of like push it down mentality. And so then I wanted to sort of operationalize what are we talking about here? Because I do know what you're talking about. And we were, you and I sort of operationalized this as, people who are refusing to take accountability, refusing to grow or heal, refusing to acknowledge harm, versus someone who is asking for support because, because they need support.

would you say that I summarized that well? Or not.

[00:39:12] Emily: that is a, that is a beautiful operationalization of what I'm talking about. And it's a beautiful, reframe that the idea of victim mentality still in and of itself comes from the bootstraps mentality. So I've been maybe trying to like, I'm seeing as you were talking, I'm visualizing like a seesaw.

And I thought I was like trying to balance on the two different ends of the see saw when really i've been trying to balance on the two different sides of one end of the see saw so 

so okay so help me help me reframe this and and think differently about um how I How I move through the world in a disability justice framework.

[00:39:53] Gabrielle: So I think the cool thing about that reframe is that I, God, I just love that visual that you shared because now the questions seem easier to answer probably, right? Because now the question is, is this something that I need for my wellbeing and to be able to be the best that I want to be and to show up the way I want to show up?

And to be included and to participate, or is this me dodging accountability, refusing to acknowledge harm and, ignoring or avoiding healing and growing? And those questions to me feel a lot. easier to answer and a lot easier to tell apart.

[00:40:26] Emily: Once again, I know what operationalization is. I've known this for a long time. I know how to do it when I'm assessing, other people's behavior, but thanks for helping me to prove this behavior and learn how to do it for myself, because that's exactly it. That is the root of my fear and distress has been.

I, I want to know when I, when I can ask for help versus when I, I need to do the work. And, but like, that's the core of it is, am I shirking accountability or responsibility or acknowledging harm versus, am I asking for support? Am I asking for enrichment? Do I need, do I need some, do I have some unmet needs?

That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Gabrielle for, for applying a lesson I already knew in another context of my life to this situation in my life. I appreciate you.

[00:41:16] Gabrielle: Yeah, absolutely. That's, that is my hope, right, is to take this other thing and intersect it with where we are with, with our pet thing. So I think there's so much to learn. our work as pet professionals can often serve as sort of this opening for, you know, exploration in those other directions.

I think the other. Part of this is like when we're trying to make those decisions. and this is I want to reiterate just just sort of my opinion based on my lived experience. And I am certainly open to other perspectives. but I think it's really important that we use this always as. Self reflective like a self reflective exercise versus judgment of others in a lot of cases, at least externally.

Right? And so I think there are also internal things that we can do to keep ourselves safe. And that's really important. And I want to talk more about that in a second. But, sort of as a preface to that. I think. That we are, I think there's nuance to this too, but I think that we are, in general, likely to do a lot more harm in presuming that someone just isn't trying hard enough and telling them that much than we are to make a difference in the mindset of someone who's closed off to feedback.

And so if I, you know, because somewhere I see this come up is, um, I have, I have many friends with children and some who have, uh, teenage children, and many of them who are neurospicy, and then the friends are also neurospicy, and there's this question of, like, how much am I supposed to push as a parent, and how much am I supposed to accommodate as a parent, and they're in this really tough situation where they are trying to make this decision for someone outside of them, right?

So it's not even self knowing. it's this having to know this other. And I think we can end up in that position with our pets too. Like how much do I challenge my pet versus how much do I, you know, do management? And part of my job, of course, as a behavior consultant, part of our work is to help people strike those balances of increasing the challenge as the dog is successful and, making it easier as they're struggling.

but I think in general, with the exception of these situations where we might have to make a judgment for someone else that we are responsible for, to the best of our ability, I think it can be really helpful to use these as, you know, in the way that you've brought up where it's sort of this self reflective thing versus going up to someone and saying, I think you could just try harder.

I saw this, you know, video where this disabled person was doing an inspirational thing, and I think you could do that too. I think that's more likely to cause harm Then, you know, to, to like get through to someone who's not interested in like growing. and then I think that leads into an important conversation of how do we protect ourselves?

Like you mentioned, like you have been harmed by people. Um, and I have as well, who have taken a mindset of the sort of anti growth, um, perhaps anti healing, sort of anti emotional intelligence, self reflection, perhaps, um, I imagine there's a whole myriad of things that can go into that. and I think that's where it's really helpful to recognize.

What we can and can't control and set our own boundaries around that. And I know something that I know that is something that did not come naturally for me, that was a skill I had to like learn in adulthood was, to recognize that giving people health that they don't want is non consensual. To recognize that.

Um, and I think, I think you actually taught me that phrasing, or they have been, um, in Devin Price's book, the laziness lot. No, I always want to call it the laziness. So I talk about renaming books. It's called laziness does not exist, but it should be called the laziness and apply no offense to Dr.

Devon price. I think that's a good name. It's such a good one. And, and yeah, I think it shows up in nonviolent communication as well I think is where you and I were talking about it and. So really recognizing like how to be there for someone while also meeting your own needs. So saying like, you know, I want to be here for you as you're maybe struggling.

Maybe I have a friend struggling with an issue that I feel like they are just, I feel like they could be taking actual steps to solve. And I feel like they're just kind of like ruminating in, you know, this issue. And maybe I'm just feeling like, man, just like this is draining me. the thing that I find helpful is not to try to get.

That friend to engage in behaviors that I think will solve the issue for them. The answer in my perspective is to set my own boundaries around that. So to say, um, you know, I actually don't have the capacity to talk about this right now, or it doesn't have to be black and white. It can be, you know, I, I need, I need 10 minutes to wake up first, um, you know, or I have this important meeting come up.

Can we take a walk to talk about this tomorrow? you know, and, and so setting whatever boundaries I need to set so that I'm, I'm taking care of myself, but that's about monitoring or changing my own behavior and my own, yeah, my own behavior, like, you know, what a boundary is versus, like, telling someone else they need to change their behavior.

and then I don't accidentally fall into the trap of, like, telling someone else, like, you know, you need to be doing better, etc. But also my needs are met. I think I went down a rabbit hole.

[00:46:00] Emily: No, I love it. It's a beautiful rabbit hole because that that was my next question is like, and as like, setting boundaries, learning how to set boundaries has been One of the biggest journeys it was for me in therapy and outside of therapy in my profession, reading books about navigating hard conversations and, and how to, I, I think, we talk a lot about crucial conversations and we don't talk nearly enough about crucial confrontations or crucial accountability, which are the other two books that they, those authors wrote that have been extraordinarily helpful as well. So, as boundary setting is definitely, something that I have been learning how to do and learning how to set clear, compassionate, but firm boundaries, has, has been a whole learning journey for me.

So I do think it was a really important thing to bring up is like how you do that. What's interesting for me is that. I was thinking about it in terms of, and this is not for you to, for you to respond to or talk about, because I know that this isn't your area of expertise and this isn't a therapy session.

But what's interesting is that I was, I was thinking about it in terms of, workplaces where, um. there's, one or two employees who shirk a lot of their duties and they say it's because, they can't for whatever reason. And so then those work duties get passed on. Are in the past have gotten passed on to me and so it's like, okay, well, I have to work overtime and and I understand that that's a systemic problem, right?

Because the real problem is being understaffed so that we can't support the person who needs more time off. And then, and then as an employer, I understand how that is hard within our current infrastructure because we can't afford to just hire an extra person to like float, like, there are some organizations that can afford to hire like a floater who just like fills in wherever they're needed.

And that's not us. Like we can't afford to have a floater, not that we have that issue in our team, but I'm saying like, I understand why. Employers don't, don't fix that problem because like finances are, are a thing. Right. So it just goes back to like, what we've been talking about before is sometimes like to find the root of the problem, we just keep scaling up and up and up and realize it's a systemic problem.

And so, the boundary setting thing, there's a limit as to how much you can set boundaries in a workplace. Although I could certainly set limits and say like, I'm not willing to work more than 40 hours. Like that's what I signed my contract for. But it's, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because it's just a reminder that everything is complicated and where there's not perfect solutions, we can just be thinking about these things and how can we do the best we can in an imperfect situation.

And so neither of us, you and I don't have the answers, but if we are practicing developing really healthy boundary setting. And we are concerned with like fixing ourselves, not fixing everybody around us, then we'll definitely improve the experience. So we'll move the needle in the right direction, right?

So that's what I took away from, from that conversation. So thank you for that. I want to talk about mutual aid funds because it is, it's relevant to all of this. It's relevant to, disability justice. It's relevant to, our profession and accessibility and all of those things. But before I ask my question about mutual aid funds, will you please, for the benefit of people explaining the difference between A mutual aid fund and a scholarship model.

[00:49:33] Gabrielle: to start kind of mutual aid as a concept is bigger than, mutual aid funds. So mutual aid funds are, if we're sort of sorry, operationalizing again, saying mutual aid funds are probably about exchange of money, although they wouldn't have to be, um, mutual aid is much broader than that as a whole.

So, mutual aid has three key elements, um, and I'm taking this from Dean Spade's book, Mutual Aid, Building Solidarity During This Crisis and the Next. so the first is that mutual aid works to meet survival needs such as food, education, housing, and healthcare, while at the same time building a shared understanding that those needs are not already met.

Not due to individual failing, but societal failure. Um, so the idea that a society's purpose is, it has one job. You know, just to meet the basic needs of its people. That is the, the purpose and goal and benefit of living in a society. and that society is failing to do so. and I think a lot of times, I think, my understanding is that mutual aid as a term has become really popular.

you know, Especially sort of in the mainstream, especially since COVID hit in 2020. I think there are a lot of folks who understand the first half of that first piece of mutual aid, is, you know, we're working to meet people's needs. but there is, An inherent political aspect to mutual aid.

It's not partisan, but it is political. and I think that's a really important thing to understand. Otherwise, we can end up with a really kind of whitewashed capitalist version of mutual aid. Which is not cool. so the second element of mutual aid is meeting the people's needs and gaining a shared understanding that the reason we are suffering is not because we are all somehow inadequate, but because of that systemic inequality.

So that understanding is really important. Inherent to mutual aid. And then the third step is that there is movement. There's mobilization towards building and expanding solidarity, the same solidarity that we see in our 10 principles of disability justice. And so there's a participatory problem solving through collective action.

And so that is mutual aid, and we can sort of compare mutual aid to the, the charity model. So charity models tend to, um, or can very easily, perpetuate systems of oppression, um, particularly racist and classist and ableist systems of oppression. Charities can reinforce power dynamics, um, by providing aid in a top down manner without addressing the underlying structural issues that have gotten us to this point in the first place.

The charity model can perpetuate stereotypes and stigmatize its recipients. And then in contrast, mutual aid emphasizes solidarity, cooperation, and collective empowerment within communities. And it seeks to address root causes of inequality by redistributing resources directly among peers, fostering autonomy and dignity.

Mutual aid efforts center the voices and needs of marginalized groups and challenge traditional charity paradigms while advocating for systemic change. And so I think a lot of times when we're talking about a scholarship model, we're often talking about sort of a charity model. And then when we're talking about mutual aid funds, hopefully we are talking about more of that, something that is existing within that more broad mutual aid approach.

Mutually, it has a really long, strong history. So again, I just really want to mention that learning here from black, brown, indigenous, queer, and trans. And to spirit activists and educators is is really really vital. The Black Panther Party was was a mutual aid organization, we've seen mutual aid be prominent in labor movements and during times of economic hardship and natural disasters oh my gosh the the mutual aid you know that we just saw with the recent hurricanes on the east coast.

Really incredibly impactful. So that is that is a bit of the difference between a charity model and a mutual aid model.

[00:53:26] Emily: Thank you for that beautiful explanation. Well done. Yeah. So I love that you separated out mutual aid as a, as a practice, as a framework, as a concept from mutual aid funds, because it is so important and, and, our legacy as a species is mutual aid. Like, as far as I know, I would have to ask a friend of mine who's Got advanced degrees in anthropology, but as far as I know, my understanding is that every indigenous culture, at least most of them operated on a mutual aid model rather than a top down model. So it's more of a returning to who we are, then, Inventing something new again, going back to that showing provenance for like, where we get ideas from.

So I love that, but I do have a question about mutual aid funds because we do currently exist in a capitalist model and and, and it is something that we at Pet Harmony have been trying to navigate. And that is, We're in the process of, of trying to figure out the logistics of how we could move from a scholarship model to a mutual aid model.

We are experiencing something that is, is pretty common to human behavior. It is very on brand for humans. There's the saying that like, humans tend to be less invested in things they've invested less in. And we, we do see that and we're not scandalized by it because. Yeah, it is a pretty well known behavioral phenomenon.

And I want to be clear that in that adage, investment can look like many things, not just money, right? So there's time investment, there's labor investment, there's emotional investment, there's lots of ways that people can be invested in something. And of course there are also exceptions to that rule.

We see lots of people who who are so emotionally invested that that's all the investment they need in order to really utilize that aid and whatever it looks like. But because it is a common behavioral phenomenon, it can be emotionally easier for us to take on that risk. When we're the ones taking the financial hit of giving out scholarships, whereas it feels harder, a lot harder, I would say, to ask our community to invest in an unknown entity whose own investment is unknown.

Like, If I give you some of my money so you can access this educational opportunity, are you going to actually utilize it or are you just going to squander my money, right? So that's what we're currently grappling with as we try to figure out how to move to a mutual aid fund model. What advice do you have to help us and anyone else who's considering moving to a mutual aid model to set our community up for success? Like, how can we protect our community's investment in each other so that they're more likely to continue utilizing a mutual aid model?

[00:56:11] Gabrielle: really good question, and I can primarily speak to and will speak to my personal experience, using a mutual aid model within my business framework. and so, one's experience may vary. So, I think. There are a few different rabbit holes here. So on the one hand, I think something that you pointed out is really important that investment can look like different things.

the biggest problem. So maybe I should maybe I should actually start by talking a little bit about the mutual aid fund that we have at best life. So, um, we have a mutual aid fund called the best life accessibility fund. and community members whose financial needs are met may opt to redistribute some of that wealth into the Best Life Accessibility Fund, where, I am then responsible for redistributing that to people whose financial needs are not met.

which is a wild responsibility that makes me feel ill sometimes. And so it is that as I think it should be, it's, it, it, it is a big responsibility for sure to be sure that other people's, sharing generous sharing of their funds. is reaching other people. And when there is sort of a scarcity of funds and there are so many people with needs, those decisions can be daunting.

We do prioritize access for people belonging to marginalized groups, specifically black, brown, and indigenous people, um, and disabled people. Um, and queer and trans people. and so, gosh, I went down a whole different rabbit hole. So, oh, so that's our mutual aid fund. the problem that I have had personally, more so than people not taking advantage of the opportunities that they can then access.

Because of the funds, because we actually haven't had that be a problem at all. And I'll talk more about that. But the bigger problem that we have had, I guess we had, like, maybe 1 example of that. But, I mean, I won't keep you in suspense. They just didn't use the money and then the money was back in the fund, you know, so it was like, it was, it was freed up for other people.

but I think the bigger issue that we have run into is getting people to accept help when they need it. at least in, in the experience that we've had, the bigger issue has been people, saying, Oh no, that is for somebody else. So typically the conversation says they're, they're like, Hi, I need support with, um, uh, with behavior needs.

or perhaps they're already a client or community member of ours, and our fund might be helping them access a veterinary behaviorist or another medical specialist or routine vet care, um, continuing education for other trainers. We've paid for emergency surgeries, behavioral euthanasia, enrichment items, um, any number of things, uh, spay and neuters, uh, pet food, um, all, all sorts of different things.

And so, someone might stay to need. Or they might say, Hey, you know, our need is that we're trying to access your services. And then we have a number of accessibility options. And so we have some methods of payment at checkout that take payment plans. And from the business owner side of things, that's not something that we carry.

PayPal takes care of it. And so that can be a nice, easy option. We found for folks are looking like payment plans, but a business owner is concerned about using that model for their, you know, their own business reasons. We also encourage folks to check out their pet insurance policies. We have a lot of clients whose policies will pay for their behavior therapy sessions when prescribed by a veterinarian.

We also have a, um, a discount that we give people just a blanket discount to be used at their discretion on our services to see if that takes things down enough to be more accessible for them. And then, if none of those, um, options are sufficient to make us accessible. On their own, then we offer the accessibility fund, where, basically we give our services at a discount, with personal discretion to, you know, we can increase that discount as needed, um, and then, uh, may use the funds to, um, to cover some of that difference. and by and large, the answer that I get from folks is, oh, no, there are other folks who need that more than I do. and it is a struggle. Like, I don't, I don't want to argue with people, but I'm like. Respectfully and with love, if you can't access these services without the support, then you are some people, like you are the people.

And I think, and I say this so gently and with so much love, I think that it's, it is sort of some of this, um, these internalized mindsets of like, I'm not a poor, I'm not a disabled, I'm not an in need, that's, that's for someone else. I'm not a recipient of charity, right? And it's very much coming from that charitable framework, and we're like, oh, no, no, no, I'm someone who gives charity.

I'm not someone who receives charity. And a mutual aid framework is just an inherently different presumption. It's saying, you know, the reason that you can't access this is because your needs aren't met. you know, the reason that you're trying to choose between, you know, support for your part and groceries is, is because of societal issues, not because you're a failure as a human being.

and, and so let your community support you and also that. You are the presumption that you, that person are bringing things to the table as well, right? Like there are other things, even if they are non monetary, that are valuable about your existence here. especially like when people are looking for behavior help, like they're trying to help their pet, you know what I mean?

It's not even like they're trying to help themselves. I mean, yes, it inherently hopefully lowers their stress as well and makes them safer, but like They're trying to get help for their pet. just not to say that people don't deserve support for their own needs as well. but so I think, I think that's the bigger issue that we run into.

And I think that comes back to what you said about investment looking like different things. I have found that people, particularly when they perceive that someone else is covering that for them. In my experience, the people that I've worked with have taken that very, very seriously and have almost maybe taken it more seriously than their own investment because they very much feel the weight of, of someone else covering that for them.

And they may even have like some guilt and some feelings around that, which I don't want them to have. But I think speaks to how investment can come in other forms. And so there's almost this, and I think part of that too, I mean, there's probably a lot of different psychological pieces in there, like the idea that it's coming from other community members versus like, I think sometimes we think about businesses, even small businesses.

We like think of them like corporations which I think is an interesting phenomenon. but so I think maybe there's an aspect of that too, is that the, the, the viewpoint isn't that like. Best Life TM is like covering that cost or like CVS or Butterfinger right it's, it's fellow community members, and so I have seen that and maybe that's the trick is that viewpoint is that it's it's other peers and so they take that very seriously.

I have also seen. What is wild to me is that the more financially disadvantaged, and this is again, just sort of anecdotally what I've seen, the more financially disadvantaged someone is, the more likely they are to put back into our fund. so I have seen people time and time again, whose basic needs are absolutely not met, working really hard to like repay what they've borrowed from the fund.

And it's not borrowing. No one ever is expected to put the money back in, but they feel a responsibility to do so, so that those funds can be used for other people. and sorry, it makes me kind of emotional. Thanks. it's really interesting. And so I think that investment is in the community. And when there's a sense of community and a sense of belonging, and that absence of shaming, and that absence of sort of all those things we get from that charitable model I think people become invested in their community, whatever that looks like.

[01:03:24] Emily: That's powerful. Because I think you're right that a scholarship just comes from a faceless corporation. Even if, even if we are the face of Pet Harmony, Pet Harmony is still this kind of faceless monolith. I think socially, that's how we're, we were structured to think about corporations post Reagan.

Like, they are, corporations are these like monolithic entities that, that, can't, can't exist. That have just like a wellspring of funds and like they, they owe it to the people or whatever, as opposed to that community model being the community is the investment. Right? You just blew my mind and have given me a lot to think about.

And now I can't Can go back to Allie and Ellen and we can continue this discussion about moving to a mutual aid model because yeah, that, that's powerful. That, that struck deep. Thank you for that.

[01:04:16] Gabrielle: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for thanks for letting me talk about the thoughts that rumble around in my head sometimes. that was helpful for me to kind of tease out as well. and, you know, I think another another piece of it is that When we give, when we share with our, our neighbors, our community members, you know, whether that's digital neighbors, you know, or people who are just in a similar struggle as us or just however we define community, because I think there are so many ways we can define community.

I think it's important to give freely. and. Where this really, I think comes up for me as kind of, I'm sure you've heard the discussion too, a lot of times where people will talk about like giving money to someone who like a houseless person or something like that. and like being concerned, like with that, how is it going to be spent or like a conversation I see a lot around like the holidays is like, is it appropriate when you give gifts to like these organizations, like for foster kids or like through churches or whatever, sometimes people will scratch out the barcodes with the presumption that like, The children's parents are going to like sell the gifts or return the gifts for money like there's just it's a lot of, bad faith presumptions and.

There are a lot of reasons why that mindset is worth unpacking. I think probably more than we have time to dive into here, but it is, it is worth unpacking, for sure. And I think that sort of rabbit hole applies here, where We want to give freely and trust again that people know what's best for them.

The thing that we asked for the best life accessibility fund is that if the funds are not used in the way that you like, because the request for the mutual aid fund is very basic you just share your contact info. We asked you know what you're using the funds for, how much you're asking for, and, and then we fulfill it, if we can.

And so, it's pretty straightforward. There's no, like, you don't have to, like, show proof of income or, like, any of these things that can sort of be, like, tied up again and, like, judging does someone deserve this support? Like, that's not my call. and so, presuming the best of people in that, in that way, but then also just when I started this up, I knew that I needed to be okay with the idea.

Like, what if someone did use it? In a different way than they had said, or, you know, what if, what if something like that happened? And. Really just kind of like coming back to the idea that when you give you give freely. And so, to sort of make peace with that and again it has been a non issue we had like one time someone went through that process requested the funds ended up not using the funds returned to the money to us.

I would say that my clients who are using. The mutual aid fund, either for our services or for outside services. it can often be some of the most invested.

[01:06:52] Emily: I love that. I love that. And it, and it makes a lot of sense. So thank you for that. At the end of every interview, I like to ask the same set of questions. And the first of those questions is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[01:07:08] Gabrielle: It's good question. my best hope is that people find. That they have so many questions. I feel like this is the type of conversation where, people's heads might be like, if, if, if I were me listening to this conversation, my head might be exploding. If some, especially I know like what I did when some of these concepts were brand new to me.

And then after that comes so many questions, or if you're a faster processor, you might already have the questions and. so my best hope is that people will act on that curiosity. I will, I'll share some of my favorite resources for the show, the show notes. and, there are so many people out there, doing the work and sharing the work.

You can go on social media and follow so many different accounts or free, of people just doing the labor to educate. Through their lived experience and what they know, both theoretically and in practice. And, if you are financially able and your, your needs are met, those folks often have like Patreons or, or other things where you can like do a, buy me a coffee.

And I think paying people for that labor is really important when you can. but the information is out there. There are people to learn from. And so, I really liked what you said in the beginning, you know, about the defensiveness that can come with learning something new. So my best hope is that people would.

Recognize that. work with recognizing that being uncomfortable is not the same thing as being unsafe, and to do a lot of listening and approaching with curiosity to learn more about the things that may have piqued their interest so that they can, turn around and enhance their own lives and the lives of those around them.

[01:08:36] Emily: That is A beautiful response. Thank you so much for that. is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession or enrichment, your choice?

[01:08:45] Gabrielle: That's a really good question. One thing that, that is really, really hard. I think, okay, if I was picking one thing for people to know, I feel like, I feel like I'm playing like a hack, like when you wish for more wishes, I would want people to know that there is probably so much more than just They think there is, and to approach any, any of those three categories, with curiosity and an open mind.

you know, and I think that shows up for us in the way that we might look at how enrichment is, you know, so much more than puzzle toys, or we might look at, you know, the work that I do with, you know, specifically with dysregulated dogs or dogs displaying aggressive behavior that, you know, You know, if that goes beyond like, and perhaps in a lot of ways involves very little, like just direct operant conditioning, but we're looking, we're using an enrichment framework, right.

And looking at like that, the whole needs of the dog and that can transform into something beautiful, like how we understand ourselves and we go, wait a minute, if my dog's behavior isn't bad, it's just due to an unmet need and feelings of insecurity, what does that mean about my behavior as a human? And.

So I'm a little, I'm a little asking for more wishes. I, I would just hope that people approach, approach these topics, with a learner's brain and, um, an open mind and then follow their curiosity.

[01:10:03] Emily: I love that. And also it is so true. Like every time I think something is pretty simple and straightforward, I get my ass handed to me. No, it wasn't simple and straightforward. You were just comfortably perched on that, that Dunning Kruger cliff. And you just needed somebody to just like, shove you off the Dunning Kruger cliff and just fall, fall far, far, far down realizing how little you know about this topic that you thought was simple and straightforward. So, so yeah, now when I think something is simple and straightforward, I'm like, wait, am I, am I perched on the Dunning Kruger cliff? I, I bet I am. Aren't I? Red flag. Yep, exactly. Exactly. All right. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[01:10:48] Gabrielle: It was going to be hard to narrow down so I think one thing that I would like to see, as it regards our pets more directly, is that, and we very briefly kind of touched on this earlier, But, you know, I'm, I'm not a fan of, of tools. Um, certainly, um, I feel very comfortable saying that.

you know, I'm not a fan of aversive or suppressive methods. but also I, I agree with you 100 percent that we are getting really caught up in a really specific, tiny part of this larger conversation that needs to happen. And one thing that I encourage my clients to do is, is to ask, you know, when they're engaging in something with their dog.

And obviously, like, this is a huge nuanced conversation. Like, you know, there's so many, so many nuances here, but I think a good place, a better place, maybe to start the conversation is, is this respectful? you know, is this, um, is the way that I'm engaging with this pet right now. And now we're not just talking about things like suppressives and aversives.

We're also talking about things like agency. we're talking about things like, you know, allowing species typical behaviors and, and meeting enrichment needs. And now we're having a much more holistic conversation. Am I respecting this dog's fear? you know, or am I, Because I think it can be also really harmful to be coercive, or to be dismissive, or, and these are things that we need to be talking about in addition to whether or not something is suppressive or aversive to an animal.

And so I would love for the conversation to shift more broadly in that direction. And then I think it kind of almost eliminates the need to talk, kind of like down in those finer details because the answer will be obvious and answered in a much more broad way. Maybe that's. A bit of extended optimism on my part, but that is where I think things would go if we shifted that conversation.

[01:12:35] Emily: I'm going to, I'm going to interject here. I don't think it's unrealistic because I started volunteering in an animal shelter in a vet clinic in 1990. And, and so when I started, most people didn't even know what positive reinforcement was, right? In, in the field, in, in animal training, in, in animal welfare and sheltering and vet, people didn't even know what it was.

Most people, the people who did know what it was were, were still. Mostly coercive with clicker training, like you got to do it. Like they, they're still like that. There was still that aspect of like, I'm in control, I'm in power, I call the shots, but I'm using a clicker and treats to force you to do something instead of other methods that might be more scary or painful or whatever.

Right. So think about the fact that like, that was 1990. That was not that long ago. We're talking about less than 40 years ago. And now like. We're ready to move past the conversation about a positive reinforcement, like we've leveled up as an industry where we've graduated from kindergarten. So I don't think I don't think it's that unrealistic to say that we are ready as an industry to push that conversation forward.

I think we have been as an industry improving. Rapid fire in real time. And I think we will continue to do that. So I'm just, I'm just gonna, I'm going to put that out there and then

ask you to continue on with your thoughts.

[01:13:55] Gabrielle: Yes, I love that. Thank you. will you repeat the question so I make sure I rabbit hole appropriately into this next one?

[01:14:01] Emily: Yeah, I had asked you what is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession or enrichment, and you asked for two and you gave me the first one, which is, think more broadly about behavior on the larger picture. What's your second one?

[01:14:14] Gabrielle: Yeah, so my second one is that I would love to see, and I think we are seeing a huge increase in this and I'd love to see a continued increase in discussing the, the role that humans play in this field and in this work and I mean that in a way of like talking about like, you know, the fact that this profession is largely like white middle class women, or talking about, the ways that we are exclusionary to, people of color, to, um, disabled people, to, Folks of all sorts of different oppressed groups, and how are we unintentionally or intentionally upholding barriers?

how does that affect the way that people feel safe in these spaces? How does that affect the way then that our, our clients, our community is impacted when they can't find safety in seeking professional support in what can be very, close to home, very like intimate concerns, you know, like aggression within the household or, or things like that, um, separation anxiety, like things that are affecting people's whole broad lives, what does it mean when they can't find people, who are part of their communities and that they can feel safe with, as a result of the exclusion that's happening.

And I would really love to see that. continue to be talked about more and more as we talk about regulation for the industry, because I think it's really scary that, you know, anyone can say, I know what I'm talking about, not actually have any idea what they're talking about, and then take someone's money and instruct them on how to handle a very dangerous situation.

but I also think it's really important that as we talk about. Raising the bar that we're also talking about where there are barriers that we do not really want there. And how do we address those barriers while also ensuring that we are not creating more barriers for people who are being excluded, not because of a lack of interest or motivation or skill or experience, but for being part of marginalized groups. I think I cheated again, and that's probably more than two things, but thank you for the extra thing, even though I went over it, I think.

[01:16:10] Emily: no, it was beautiful and I wouldn't want you to change a thing. All right. What do you love about what you do? 

[01:16:15] Gabrielle: Oh my gosh. So I think one of my favorite things, honestly, is, is something we already touched on. So the way that, this sort of work can be an opening for people to start feeling better about themselves and in themselves as well. I have seen so many times that, you know, we'll be talking about like stress and trauma and nervous system dysregulation and emotion and behavior.

And. All of these things and then people are sitting there and you can see them like starting to kind of Drift off into another line of thought and and think about themselves in their own relationships with themselves or their partners or their children or because we're asking them to like really examine a lot of times their relationship with their pet and their behavior in response to their pet and It's, it's actually like a ton of, of inner work.

And that's one of the things I think can be so challenging. but as we start to understand these things about our pets, it's really natural, I think for folks to start to question some of the, the beliefs that they have around their own behaviors and emotions. And I love seeing that. Um, I love the moment where someone goes, wait a minute, if my dog's behavior is a result of an unmet need and not because they're inherently stubborn and bad, does that mean I'm not inherently stubborn or bad?

Do I just have needs? Is it okay to have needs? and I love witnessing that. I feel really honored, when I am, I'm trusted to be witness to that. and it's, it fills my emotional cup quite a bit.

[01:17:43] Emily: same, same, same, same. I have obviously benefited a lot from therapy and I'm not in any way trying to dismiss or trivialize the value of therapy, but I will say that I The majority of my personal growth has come from my own profession, and the things I've learned as a result of my profession not actually from therapy.

I would say therapy has been helpful in fine tuning, but most of my growth has come from what I've learned from this profession. So, yeah, hard agree, hard agree. All right. What are you currently working on? If people want to either work more with you or learn from you, where can they find you? 

[01:18:20] Gabrielle: I am, On Best Life Dog Services, is my business, so best life dog services.com. That's the easiest way to reach me is, is through my website or through email, which is found on my website. or, I'm quite active, on social media. Um, we share a lot of, like videos, just talking about various topics, answering people's questions.

And trying to make that information as accessible as possible, obviously, without crossing the line into giving someone advice on their particular dog. Since we couldn't ethically do that, but I'm trying to share information that would be would be helpful to people. sometimes we take breaks, but, but are pretty active on tick tock and then.

Repost it, I guess, on Instagram and Facebook too. and then, let's see, we have, a course coming up that I'm super excited about. So, we've a couple times given a presentation, community building through a disability justice framework. And that presentation has now been turned, is in the process of being turned into, it's off to the editors.

I have, in theory, done my part to create a course that will be offered through the Fluent Pet Academy. So I'm really excited about that. By the time this episode airs, that will probably be up and running, assuming the editors don't hate me or, or that I didn't mess it up too badly. Um, so, uh, that's coming up and I'm super excited about that.

[01:19:43] Emily: love it. Thank you so much for joining me today, Gabrielle. It has been such a delight and I really appreciate everything that you bring to our field.

[01:19:52] Gabrielle: Thank you so much, friend. This was wonderful. And I'm, I'm really honored to be here and sharing and to be, um, in friendship with you. I think you're wonderful. So thank you so much.

[01:20:02] Emily: Back at ya. 

[01:20:03] Allie: I hope you loved this episode as much as I did. I love how Gabrielle has such a passionate commitment to empathy and community and approaches it all in such a realistic, practical way. Like I said, I think this is where training is going with learning, with, with embracing empathy.

Our human learners as individuals. Next week, we'll be talking about adaptations for human accessibility.

If you're anything like me, you listened to a podcast episode, and the little gremlin toddler in your brain is like, the world needs to know this! So, if that's you right now, and while you were listening to this episode, you thought of someone who could benefit from it, go ahead and text them the link to this right now. I'm tasking you with being an enrichment ambassador so that together we can improve the quality of life for pets and their people.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.