#137 - All Work And No Play Makes Everyone a Dull Critter

So many of us (pet parents and pros) get tangled up in “shoulds”.  

My dog should behave better. 

I should know how to fix this.

People shouldn’t think my dog is “bad.”

But what if some of the hardest parts of living with our pets aren’t really about their behavior… but about the pressure we put on ourselves?

In this episode of Enrichment for the Real World, Emily and Tiffany unpack how our beliefs about control and perfection can make the whole family miserable, and how giving our pets agency and ourselves grace can bring the joy back.

TLDL (too long, didn’t listen):  

1️⃣ Let Go of Perfection – So much stress with our pets comes from our own expectations. When we stop trying to be the “perfect” pet parent and allow room for mistakes (theirs and ours), we create more joy and less shame for everyone involved.

2️⃣ Let Dog Be Dog – Dogs are beasty beasts. They are real animals with real emotions. They’re not little furry humans or obedience robots. Giving them agency, honoring their full range of feelings, and embracing their quirks helps build trust and connection.

3️⃣ Play, Curiosity, and Chaos Are Healthy – Enrichment isn’t just prescriptive, structured activities. Enrichment is curiosity, communication, and shared silliness. Lean into the chaos, celebrate the weird moments, and remember that play and joy are just as important as training plans.

For the full episode show notes, including the resources mentioned in this episode, go here.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Emily: I feel like every episode lately that we've recorded, I have said I'm gonna choose violence. I've been real stabby lately. but the violence I'm choosing today is that, part of letting go of the garbage is like confronting your control issues.

And the reason I'm saying that is because, it can be really hard for people to give their pets agency because they feel like they have to maintain control. There's this belief that you have to control the animal. And so the idea of giving them control can be really scary. 

[00:00:32] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:00:50] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:00:51] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:12] Emily: In this episode, you're gonna hear Tiffany and I talk about Let go and let Dog. The difference between obedience and responsiveness. Why I am very, super, extremely pro zoomies. What Tiffany is the world's foremost expert at, and the crucial difference between language policing and reframing. All right, let's get to it.

I'm just gonna kick off this episode with a broad, sweeping statement that is also a hot take. I think the majority of self-inflicted suffering that we do to ourselves is because of our own beliefs. And here's why I'm talking about this on a pet enrichment podcast, because so much of our strife with our pets and our anxiety about our pets and our shame about our pets, all those other things, the complicated things we feel relating to our pets is because our expectations and beliefs about how they should be behaving and what's wrong with them, and what other people will think of them and by extension what they think of us.

I lost, I lost that train of thought. That sentence was way too long. But the point is, it, we have, we feel so much pressure, like if we can't come correct and make sure that our pets meet all societal expectations and that they're, they're perfectly behaved, and that by extension we look like excellent dog owners and dog trainers, that's, that's why we tie ourselves in nuts.

So, okay. That was maybe very convoluted because I, I got lost in my own sentence, but you, you get what I'm saying, right, Tiffany?

[00:02:44] Tiffany: I do. Why did my husband just look up at me from the couch a couple of weeks ago and be like, you are making yourself miserable over this. He is fine. And I'm like, bro, shut your mouth.

[00:03:02] Emily: I mean, for real though, like we lose perspective because we're just so deep in it, and then we get really, really, really invested in. Getting it right and we forget that like nothing is perfectly right. There's nothing on earth that's perfect. Why are we expecting perfection from ourselves and our dogs?

And it does take like an outside party to be like, oh my God, it's fine. Calm down. Right? Sometimes it does. Yeah. So then like our ideologies end up tying us in knots because it's not about reality, it's about what we believe about reality that is tying us in knots. and then like, you know, there's all this external pressure too.

Like there's so much of a societal emphasis on obedience and people get so wrapped up in making sure that their dogs obey, that they forget to enjoy the actual companionship. Like the whole point of dogs, the whole reason they were domesticated is to be our companions, to be our ride or die. And we lose sight of that when we get really hung up on the whole obedience thing.

And people forget that dogs are not just like little furry humans, like they're actual beasts. So they're going to behave beasty. They're gonna be beasty beasts because they are in fact beasty beasts. and, and it's weird how like. We're fine with humans having all the emotions asterisk. We're really not, because we still do a lot of tone policing to humans too.

And toxic positivity is a thing, but like we are more comfortable with humans having a whole spectrum of emotions. But for some reason we expect these beasts who live with us to experience nothing other than pure joy or at the worst, like stoicism. Right. And it's like if we can't even, why do we expect that of these little fuzzy beasts when we can't even like execute that ourselves?

That's so weird that that's our societal expectation. So just nah, to all of that, just nah. Right.

[00:05:01] Tiffany: Yes. Here's a fun fact. my dog bit me a couple of weeks ago and I, I took my time to kind of like process it a little bit and then I asked the team like, Hey, does anybody wanna help me troubleshoot this? And, and MK was kind enough to do that with me. And one of the things she said was, I'm glad you're, you know, you're, you're not scandalized by the fact that that happened.

Like knowing all, all of P's history and, and she doesn't obviously know as much as I do 'cause I've been here the whole time. But, she just, when when she said, I'm glad you weren't scandalized by that. Like, that's a very PD thing to do. Um, he had been, he had been stung by a bunch of bees, is what happened earlier in that week.

And that's, that's one that was one of the pieces of fallout from that, from that situation. I somehow did not get myself too tied in knots over, over that happening. It happened fast. I, I kind of had a really good idea of why it had happened, like. I was stressed out and I only got stung four times. I, he probably got stung close to 20 times and, you know, ended up having diarrhea and stuff, so, poor guy, he's a beastie.

[00:06:24] Emily: Yeah, I mean, let's be real. I have way better me metacognitive skills than a dog does, and I also bite when I'm in pain.

So I'm just saying, it's, it's a, it's an understandable response and I'm really proud of you for not being scandalized by it. And I'm really proud of MK for, for verbalizing that to you. 'cause sometimes I think you need to hear it when you're in this situation. You need to hear from an objective third party that you handled it better than you think you did.

[00:06:57] Tiffany: It did make me feel much better and she like read over my email to our vet and, you know, we, we got everything squared away and got, got him on some pain meds and probiotic and he's doing well.

[00:07:13] Emily: That's excellent. I'm happy to hear that PD is recovering from his traumatic encounter with a hive of bees

[00:07:21] Tiffany: I always tell him, bro, stay out of that bee hole.

[00:07:25] Emily: and he doesn't.

[00:07:26] Tiffany: It was a log this time.

[00:07:28] Emily: Hmm. So, so, okay, here, sidebar. I need to know, like, this is not on topic, but I need to know, do you think he knew that there were bees there?

Like were they making 

[00:07:38] Tiffany: No, I dunno if he just like heard a sound and was like, I need, because it was like a rotten log. So I don't know if maybe he just thought it was a small mammal or something and heard a sound, or maybe there was a small mammal and there were also bees. But I didn't think anything of him like shredding at a log because he does it all the time.

and then he started kind of like biting at himself and I thought a mouse jumped on him. 'cause that is an actual thing that has happened. Or like one time a vol like, like launched his body onto him. but no, it was a bunch of bees, yellow jackets.

[00:08:13] Emily: Oh, not even bees. Worse, yellow jackets. 

[00:08:16] Tiffany: Yeah, it was very unpleasant.

[00:08:19] Emily: Oh, yellow jacket. I would take an entire hive of bees over a single yellow jacket any day. The story just keeps getting worse and worse the more you tell it. 

[00:08:28] Tiffany: I know it feels like an electrical shock, so I don't. I don't know how it felt to him.

[00:08:34] Emily: it does. It does feel like an electrical shock. I'm so sorry that happened to the both of you. Also, I'm sorry that, you know, PD bit you as a pain response and also I'm really proud of you for how you handled it, and that's a really good example of what we're talking about, how people, would, everything would be easier for, for pet parents and, and their, their companion animals.

If. We learned how to have that perspective and give ourselves grace and give our dogs grace and, and lean in and enjoy. So let's talk about how to do that. Like what's the process of letting go of that kind of all work in no play?

[00:09:17] Tiffany: Let go and let dog.

[00:09:18] Emily: let go and let dog Tiffany. 

That's amazing. All right. So here are recommendations for how to let go and let dog, all right.

So first of all, the let go part, which is let go of the garbage that's weighing you down. So that includes so many different things, but I think first we can say, let go of the societal expectations. And I think part of that comes from like our, our pressure to sort of like, please society comes from all of the comments that we get from the people in our lives and from the internet and unsolicited advice.

Um, so I'm just gonna refer you to our blog article, I think I called it. Everybody has gotten an opinion, talking about unsolicited advice and how to handle it because I think that's, that's like the, the lowest hanging fruit in terms of like letting go of the garbage is learning how to set boundaries and be like, I did not ask for your input.

Thank you very much kindly. See yourself out. So I think that's a big part of it is, um, learning how to set boundaries so that societal pressures can minimally impact you so that you can do the work of letting go of your own garbage. Because most of the time, I don't know if everybody is like me, but most of the time I am my worst enemy.

And so like all of the external comments are just the cherry on top of all of the garbage I'm piling on myself. So let's get rid of the cherry first. Right.

[00:10:48] Tiffany: Like you don't even wanna know what I'm saying to myself.

[00:10:52] Emily: I mean, I have a pretty good idea of the stuff that you say to 

yourself because 

you say it out loud quite a bit and Yeah. You're really mean to

yourself. 

[00:11:00] Tiffany: Then Ally's like, be nicer to my friend Tiffany.

I'm like, you can keep telling me that. I probably won't listen, but thank you.

[00:11:08] Emily: I mean, learning how to be kinder to yourself is, I feel like a lifelong journey, right? Because like, I am way better at it than I used to be. And also I am still way more mean to myself than I have ever been to anybody else on the planet.

So it's a process. It's a process. Yeah. Okay. I think the next thing is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind choose violence and say this a little bit bluntly. I, lately, I feel like every episode lately that we've recorded, I have said I'm gonna choose violence. I've been real stabby lately. but the violence I'm choosing today is that, part of letting go of the garbage is like confronting your control issues.

And the reason I'm saying that is because, it can be really hard for people to give their pets agency because they feel like they have to maintain control. There's this belief that you have to control the animal. And so the idea of giving them control can be really scary. And obviously there are constructive ways to do that and destructive ways to do that.

So, you know, giving agency requires some skill and so for people who are, do not have those skills yet, they should probably reach out to behavior professional to get some help. But, it, when you give learners agency. Let them have more control over their learning process and it becomes a collaboration instead of a dictatorship.

It's so much easier for everybody including you, because micromanaging is really hard work and it's not fun work either, right? It sets you up to have this like war of the wills and kind of like conflict based relationship, and is that really what you want from your ride or die? Is that really a ride or die relationship?

I wanna know.

[00:12:54] Tiffany: Plus, if you have. Made that effort to provide more agency when you are in a situation where you have lost all control, like your dog is being attacked by bees. He did not bite me when I was helping him by grabbing the handle of his harness and moving him away from the bees so that we could get further than where they were like jumping on both of us.

And he did not bite me when I was brushing the bees off of him, and he did not bite me when we went back to the car. He bit me later, you know, when he was feeling crappy. And for a dog who's really sensitive to being handled and touched, the only reason I was able to do that in that situation was because we've done so much work around that.

Around providing agency and predictability and, you know, cooperative, cooperative care.

[00:14:02] Emily: Yes, exactly. Like, uh, it's not just easier, it's also safer to equip your learner with the skills they need and establish the trust in the relationship so that when you know the brown stuff hits the fan, you don't have to when you're caught in a whirlwind. you don't have to also try to control another living being right.

And I think that that's one of the things that like, makes me really sad when I see trainers and I in Utah, I saw this argument all the time, like it was a daily, daily experience. Um, and then moving to Seattle, I hadn't seen it in a really long time. And then I think I've already mentioned this on the podcast, um, not too long ago I was looking for a, a somebody's website and I stumbled onto a different dog trainer's website who has a similar name.

And she used the same argument that I used to see all the time in Utah, which is like, I use, uh, electronic collars because I want my dogs to be safe and obedient. And that was like the daily rhetoric that I heard in Utah is that you need to be coercive in order to keep your animals safe and obedient.

And that argument makes me really sad. Not just for the dogs, but also the people. Because imagine if you live your life believing that the only way to keep your dog safe is to hurt them. And the only way to keep them and what they call obedient, which I'll get to that in a little bit, but the only way to get them obedient is through force.

That is so much effort and that is so unpleasant. And I just feel sorry for people who believe that because like, it's not true and you're making things, you're making everything harder for yourself and your dog. Right? And that just makes me really sad. so like the reframe that I used to have, like when I would have good faith conversations with people in Utah who held that belief, but they actually wanted to know what I did and what I was all about.

What I would, the reframe I would give them is like the kernel of truth in, in how much you care about obedience, is that we need our learners to be responsive because in any collaborative relationship, communication goes both ways and you respond to each other when, when you ask for responsiveness, right?

So like the obedience part of it is the part that's harmful because like obedience implies that the learner doesn't have a say. They don't get to respond, they just have to do whatever you tell them. And that's first of all, an unpleasant relationship to have. And secondly, again, micromanaging is a lot of work.

So yes, I, I agree with you that we want our animals to be responsive because in any good relationship, everybody involved is responsive. And that means you need to be responsive to them too. It goes both ways, right? But you can get safety and responsiveness without using coercion to get there. And that's the part that makes me really sad, is you're making more work for yourself by believing that you have to, compel, compel that from your, from your dog,

right? 

[00:17:04] Tiffany: I also think you're missing out on so much like watching. My dog. Think and learn, or like being in a group class setting and watching a dog try things and think and learn and like, you can use what you're watching in, in, kind of spin it in different directions. Maybe you're gonna teach him a cute trick, or maybe you're gonna use that for some practical application.

Like it also kind of lets you see how cool and smart your bestie is.

[00:17:38] Emily: Yeah, I agree. I love. I love having those conversations with them where they're equal contributors and they're bringing their own ideas and information and feedback to the table. And I, I wouldn't trade that for the world. And I think, part of that is, I think to an extent that can happen, even if you are coercive, like I had a very coercive father and also there were some contexts in which he would listen to me and, value my input. And so I don't think it's as black as white as either you're coercive and you don't have any dialogue, or you're not coercive and you have extraordinary dialogue.

I don't think that it's, I think that's a dichotomous view of it. but the difference is. I think the, the core difference is the belief that making mistakes needs to be punished instead of celebrating mistakes as good information and, looking at it as exploration and trial and eval. And that, I think is the core difference between the dialogues that happen when you believe that coercion is necessary versus the dialogues that happen when you don't.

Because when one of the learners in my care makes a mistake, either isn't responsive to me or does something they, they shouldn't, I mean, I'm a human, I will have human reaction to that, like frustration or fear or what, whatever happens in the moment. But I'm able to quickly let go of that and get into that thinking mode.

and I'm going, oh, like, okay, why did this happen? What do we need to adjust about our strategy? What skills are missing? Or, or more importantly, what are you trying to tell me? What is it about this experience that didn't work for you? And I've discovered so much about the learners in my care, and right now, Miley's on the forefront of my brain because she's my puppy.

And, um, she's still puppy and hardcore, like she's a teenager. So she's got that adolescent brain, which means she makes mistakes, right? And every time she makes a mistake, even I, uh, like I do, I will freely admit that I have moments of frustration with her where I'm like, why Miley? Right? But I can get through that without feeling like I have to punish her or retaliate or lash out.

because the next thing that happens after I process my emotions is, what was she trying to tell me? Why didn't this work for her? 

What, 

what was it about? 

[00:20:00] Tiffany: What do I need to change?

[00:20:02] Emily: What do I need to change and, and what do we need to improve about the environment or about our communication or whatever. And that brings me so much joy because then I get to solve a puzzle with her instead of feeling like I have to be the bad guy, I have to correct her.

I have to lay down the law, right? And I mean, as somebody who used to train that way and train that way, for the first 29 years of my life, I can speak for myself and say I was way more miserable when I held those beliefs. And I felt like I had to come in and be the parent capital P parent, than I have, than it has been for me since then.

It's been such a joy for me since I learned how to let go of that belief that mistakes need to be punished. And here's the fun side effect of that. I also can now be easier on myself about my own mistakes. Because I no longer think that mistakes need to be punished. And so when I mess up, I get to do that same process for myself of like, what didn't work?

Why did this happen? Where was the gap in information and skills? Where was the unmet need? What was it about this that didn't work for me? And how can I adjust to make it better next time around? So it's become so much more fun to make mistakes than it used to be.

[00:21:15] Tiffany: One, one way that I have learned to be kinder to myself as like, you know, a new behavior professional, somebody new to the, to training and behavior is like, even though we're not doing a lot of, you know, what you would consider training or desensitization or anything for some of PDs issues is utilizing those conversations and, agency and, and building on the skills that we have together.

And it, and it has ended up like helping some of those issues. So I'm thinking of like resource guarding. So yesterday, I can't remember if, if you were with us, I know I was talking to Ellen, but like PD was in the hallway and there was a gate just like propped against the wall 'cause it wasn't up. And I had thrown some food in the hallway for him.

and he was sniffing around and he was finding it, and then he just like paused and he was staring behind the gate and he was going, which means I, I need you to help me with something. And we, and we, we've worked on that like, just organically of like, do you need help? Meaning, like, I gotta kind of get in your business to do this.

Like, you've got this bubble, you've got, you know, these tendencies around resources, but like, I'm gonna get in there and I'm gonna help you. And so. I can move that gate or I can kick that piece of food out and he's not upset about it.

[00:22:57] Emily: Yeah. Beautiful real world example of the kind of theoretical stuff that I was talking about. I was talking high level and you did me a solid and brought it down into like reality day to day. But yes, that's exactly what it looks like is you get to have that conversation because you have learned how to negotiate with him instead of thinking of it as like when he guards, I have to punish that, that impulse.

Right? And that's, that's so beautiful. And then it becomes fun 'cause it's like, oh, you want my help? 

[00:23:29] Tiffany: It's really cute when I hear that sound. Sometimes I'm like, bru. Because it'll be like, there was this like dusty, crusty piece of kibble, like under the bed and like he had been there for a while and he just decided that like that was the most important one. One day, and he's up on top of the bed behind me and he is sniffing down in there.

And I'm like, okay. And I'm looking around, he is like trying to stick his head under the bed and I'm like, is this what you want? Like this is gross, but okay.

[00:24:02] Emily: Yeah, it's pretty funny because, I mean, we'll, we'll see how Miley changes as she ages, but right now, at this point in her life, she's just. She scavenges for the sake of scavenging, right? She just is constantly getting into everything. She wants to know what everything is and where it is, and if there's any space that she can't have access to, that's incorrect, right?

She needs to, she needs to have access to every space so she can thoroughly investigate it. Copper on the other hand, he does not get into anything unless something's actually there, and so it, it, it can be really annoying sometimes because he will be insistent there's something like under the sofa or under the AC unit or whatever, and I'm like, uh, I know you're right because you never 

do this behavior unless there's something there. 

[00:24:50] Tiffany: Now I gotta bend my arm at a weird angle.

[00:24:53] Emily: Now I have to help you find this thing under the sofa. Like, why do you have to be so good at finding stray pieces of 

food that have been there forever? 

[00:25:02] Tiffany: yeah. Anytime PD goes past the pantry and like I see his nose go back to the pantry and he stands by the pantry, I'm like, oh fuck. Is there a mouse in there? Twice. There has been a mouse in there and he just stands in front of it and his tail goes up and the, and it's his tail starts flagging. I'm like, all right.

[00:25:27] Emily: it is delightful. And also sometimes you're like, I wish you weren't quite so good at this. however that said, there have been time. I mean, copper has learned that there will be times when Chuck and I will tell him, like, just know, dude, you can't have that. I know. I believe you.

And also, no, I'm not going to let you access the cat poop under the bush because you're not allowed to eat that. Right. 

So, 

like, he ha so like. If it's really, really a problem. He has learned that if we give him like the cutoff signal, like we're like, no dude, it's not happening today. He'll drop it. But like, you know, it can be just a very mild temporary annoyance if I have to move the sofa for him

and that's okay. 

[00:26:11] Tiffany: Then you 

think about it and you're like.

[00:26:14] Emily: Right, right. That's the thing is like the reason it's okay is because in addition to the annoyance, I'm like, that's very cute and also you're so smart and I'm so proud of you. Yeah. Sweet. Okay. But that may brings me to the next thing, which is everybody is allowed to experience the full spectrum of emotions.

So like, I talked earlier about how I, I am, I freely admit that sometimes I feel frustrated with Miley and sometimes I'm like, Miley, why? Right. That is okay. You are allowed to be a human and have human emotions and human responses to, genuinely frustrating situations. And I would go so far as to say that if you live with any sentient being human or non-human, you are going to experience frustration, exasperation, sorrow, like sharing your life with another, being by definition includes like, comes with.

The entire spectrum of emotions. So that is okay. Like feeling guilt for feeling emotions about your pets, is unnecessary. You're tormenting yourself for no reason. Allow yourself to feel those feelings. And also your pets are also allowed to feel the full spectrum of their emotions. It's okay if your dog gets cranky sometimes it's okay if your dog is sad.

Sometimes it's okay if your dog has a big startle response, has big feelings about something. So like, let your, your dog feel those feelings. And because I know that there are people out there right now that are thinking it, I'm going to preemptively say, I'm not saying it's okay for dogs to engage in conflict and, and cause harm.

Those two things are very different, right? It's okay for them to have moments of reactivity in realistic situations where reactivity is warranted. If somebody drops. A garbage can outside my front door. I also am going to have a startle response and probably shout about that. That is okay. It's what, where we work on those emotions is if the emotions are disproportionate for the stimuli, right?

So yes, there are times when we need to work on reactivity, when we need to work on dog's upset feelings, but that's not the same thing as just allowing them to have the full spectrum of emotions in, in appropriate contexts. Right?

[00:28:31] Tiffany: Yes. On the one hand we've done a lot of work around our safe spaces and like sounds outside and like the dogs next door. When they bark. Now PDs either gonna like, be like, what are we doing, Or like, go to the door. You know what I mean? Like, we're going to have some kind of moment where we're working together.

And sometimes in my home, when Big B and I are watching TV and PD just starts like, like yelling, we'll be like, what's your problem? And we're basically like yelling back at him and he's yelling at us and I'll say, you better work it out. And he'll run upstairs and you just hear him like doing hot laps.

And he does this thing where he, he'll like put his face either into the blankets or like sometimes we can hear him through the floor and he is gotta like, put his face into something and just like yell. Just like yell into the floor or yell into a blank. He's just like, it'll be, work it out Peter and he'll be going up and down the stairs and then I'll hear him shake it off and I'll be like, good job, buddy.

[00:29:47] Emily: I've been dying over here. The more I learn about Peter, the more I think Peter and I might be the same person 

[00:29:53] Tiffany: It's 

really funny because 

like, yeah, we're, we work on reactivity, but then he has these moments where he's just gotta like get it out. You know what I mean? Sounds like a gorilla running through the hallway. He's like,

[00:30:08] Emily: I mean, I mean same. I mean there have been many times in my life where I just needed to scream into my pillow. Right. So like, I feel you PD deep down at 

my bones. 

[00:30:18] Tiffany: And I honestly, I'd rather see him do that than like curl up at the back of his crate and like seethe.

[00:30:27] Emily: Right. Right. I mean, that's the thing is like.

Get it out. Right. And we were, I was just, uh, yesterday, I think after you left the, the gather meeting when it was just Ellen and I, Griffey had a moment in the background where he just had to howl and, and it was, it went on for a few minutes and he was just howling it out.

And it was the cutest thing of my whole life. And like Ellen was just patiently waiting for him to stop. And then when he finally got it all out, he like, ugh, like, you know, dropped his head down onto his pillow and Ellen said, we let, we've learned that we just have to let. Leika and griffey just sort of like, get it outta their system.

'cause if we interrupt it, then they get like agitated and pacey and like they can't let it go. And I'm like, uh, same though, like same. Sometimes you just have to get it out and then you can like, move on with your day. Right? Like so like the pressure that we put on our dogs to just constantly be these like happy, you know, joyful beasts is, is unrealistic.

You know, like they, they 

also have feelings. 

[00:31:29] Tiffany: No, sometimes I go into my yoga room and I like put, I, I listen to really loud, like doom, like grunge, like I listen to really loud music when I practice, and then I'll just like roll on the floor and like, I'm not really singing, but I'm just like making sounds like I, I think it's, you know, part of completing your stress response cycle.

Like it builds up and then you gotta let it out. And if you don't, what do you do 

with it? 

[00:32:01] Emily: I mean, yeah, like vagus, vagus nerve stimulation is, is a thing. And it does like stimulating the vagus nerve does, uh, help you somehow. I don't remember exactly, but it, it is some vital part of the process of producing dopamine. So like that's a real thing. But like I have something similar, like mine is not so much like.

doom Metal or grunge, but I listen to the like Northern European folk music, like Scandinavian folk music, Celtic folk music that has like the throat singing and the drums. And I will just like dance it out and scream, sing along with it when I need to just get out my rage. Right. So, so like that's the thing and it's, it is so like, um, I can't remember if it was in The Body Keeps a Score.

Like there was some book that I was reading, I feel like it was In The Body, keeps a Score where he was talking about like the way that animals process trauma is through these like somatic events where they like shake and, you know, run and kick and all this stuff. And I was like, yeah, I've seen that.

I've seen that with so many different species. And that's what I do for myself to complete my stress response cycle. So it makes me really sad. Like, uh, I do not, I will never, I will, I will forever, for the end of my days. Vehemently disagree with the school of thought in dog training that dogs aren't allowed to have zoomies because they shouldn't be allowed to like have that level of arousal.

Like, no, we are not going to control their emotional processing like that. That's a hard no for me.

[00:33:30] Tiffany: I am downstairs encouraging him like a freak, just because I see, I see when he is done and he shakes off. I just, I just see the tension in his body and then he just like lays down and like flops on his side and, and it, right. Like,

[00:33:54] Emily: Yeah, it's so important to let them do that work, to complete their own stress response cycle. And I'm just gonna say it because again, apparently the past few episodes, I just choose violence all the time as my default. Now it's creepy that we feel like we need to control that. And I'm not calling any individual person creepy, because we all learn it from somewhere.

But like, it's creepy that that's one of our echo chambers as human beings. On the other hand, humans have a long and storied history of being control freaks. So I'm not surprised that this is another way in which our control issues show up. But, um, but yeah, letting them complete that process is so important and, you know, uh, it, it just is what it is.

okay. So that leads into no one is perfect, none of us. It's impossible to be perfect and that we need to extend that grace to non-human as well. Speaking of extending grace, I forgot to say this earlier, but I'm going to argue with you and I, and I will fight you about this. Tiffany, you keep underplaying your experience.

You do that repeatedly, and I will not let you get away with that on the podcast. You have been a trainer. You have been a professional dog trainer for many years. Just because you're new to doing behavior consultations and new to the way we do them in specifically does not mean that you don't have years of valuable skill and experience.

And I'm not going to let you on this podcast, undersell yourself and your experience.

[00:35:22] Tiffany: I'm just a little baby. I'm just a baby.

[00:35:26] Emily: You say that and also you're just wrong. But it's fine. I, we are all imperfect, which includes, you know, things like underselling ourselves one of your charming flaws that I'm not gonna let you get away with. But I still love you and I think it's charming and cute. and we need to extend that same grace to our non-human as well, that they're also not perfect.

And expecting them to be perfect is unrealistic, and it sets us up for frustration and disappointment and disillusionment. if we just embrace that we're all flawed, messy beings, um, life gets a lot easier.

[00:35:59] Tiffany: Totally. It's like it does it affect my nervous system when my dog is screaming out of the window because he saw a dog. Yes. I know that that is part, I know that's part of who he is. And so I carry food in the car and we kind of do like. The shortest flight cue from, Hey, you'll feel better if you just don't look out that window.

Come over here and I'll just drop some food on the other side. And if he can realize, oh, there's food over here, and do that, then he can shake off and like, I know that about him. And so I just, you know, prepare myself and modify my environment. Set up my, arrange my antecedents and half my snack there, like car snacks for pd, car snacks for me so that I can have something crunchy so that I can deal with whatever it is he's about to do.

And also car snacks for him. Sometimes they are the same snacks.

[00:37:11] Emily: I am not gonna lie, I share most of my snacks with my dogs. The snacks that are safe for them to eat, we share them. Obviously, they get smaller portions than I do because they are much smaller than I am. but I share my snacks. I also share my snacks with my bird. kayak. Kayak can eat a surprising number of things that I eat mostly because most of my snacks are things like 

fruit. And gluten-free crackers and sometimes cheese. I don't want birds to have a lot of dairy 'cause there's, there's, their bodies aren't built for that. But I will, they can have a little tiny bit as a treat. And I will tell you that I don't think there's anything cuter than when I give Kaya a tiny, like, seed sized piece of cheddar.

'cause I, one of my favorite snacks is apples and cheddar and I'll give her apples, but she'll be like eyeing the cheddar and looking at me and eyeing the cheddar. And I give her a little tiny piece of it, like the size of a seed and she will savor it. She like rolls it around in her beak and she like mushes it.

And you can see her little eyes like, like she gets cross-eyed 'cause she's like focusing on what's in her, her beak.

It's the cutest thing of my entire life. Watching Kaya eat cheddar cheese is one of my favorite things of all time. 

And also if I. 

I'm not gonna give her more than that because I care about her physical health as well.

But yeah, I, we share snacks. Yeah, it's, it's good. It's fun. It's a group, it's a group activity,

right? 

[00:38:33] Tiffany: We just ate fries in the car together last night 'cause I was starving.

[00:38:38] Emily: Yeah. Copper's favorite foods are, well, mango is his favorite, favorite favorites food, but, but his second favorite food is potatoes in any form. Potatoes are his jam. And so, like if we go out somewhere to get food, like, I am going to freely admit I am a sucker for taco times taco salads with those toasted pepitas on top.

Oh my God. but we will get a little, a small tater tot order of tater tots to bring home with us when we go, because when he sees us with a fast food bag. He gets so hopeful and 

excited. And if I don't have a potato to give him, he is really sad. So we get the small order of tater tots and they last a few days 'cause I'm not gonna give my dog an entire order of tater tots in one sitting.

Right. But, because we don't go get fast food very often, it is an extremely special high value treat for him. And if I, if we got fast food and it didn't involve some kind of potato that he could eat, he would be devastated. So he gets, he gets his potatoes,

he does, he's 16 and a half. The old man gets what the old man wants, which leads me to beasts or beasts.

We need to expect them to be beasty. And that does not mean having low expectations. We should also give them skills. They deserve to be skilled individuals who can successfully navigate their environment. And the more skills they have, the more agency they can have. So by saying beast or beasts, I'm not saying don't train them, that is the opposite of what I believe.

but we also have to be aware that they are not just small, fuzzy humans. They have their own, perceptions. What, uh, like their own, it's called mve. The way that they perceive the world through their senses, which are different from ours. They have their own wants, needs and desires. They have their own set of species, typical behaviors.

They're not little baby fuzzy humans. They are their own. They're beasts. They're beasty beasts. And we need to let them be beasty.

[00:40:37] Tiffany: Is there anything. 

World. Is there anything in the world better than watching a dog put their nose up and just like catch something on the air that you're completely unaware of and just like watching, and then their eyes kind of get squinty, like there's nothing better than that.

[00:40:59] Emily: There really isn't. There's nothing better than that. It is, it is my favorite thing in the world. Yes, I agree. And that's a good segue into the second half of this episode, which is Let dog, you said, let go and let dog. So that first half was let go. The second half is let dog. So this part is pretty straightforward.

Lean into the joy of companionship. The entire reason you have a dog is for the companionship. I'm not saying that dogs can't be gainfully employed. I'm not saying that dogs can't have jobs. Right. But there are lots of ways to get jobs done. You chose a dog, which means there's, there's a companionship element to it, at least if you're the subset of humans who would listen, be listening to our podcast.

so lean into the joy of companionship. 'cause that's the entire point. Sometimes I think we lose the forest for the trees and we forget that the whole point of having dogs is to love dogs, to have, have the, have your little doggy ride or die. and I think this is one of the things that we see a lot with our clients, which is one of my favorite things about consulting is that when clients come to us, they have been so mired down by their dog's behaviors.

and it has been so stressful and there's often been conflict in the house and fear and shame and all of those negative emotions. They have really kind of lost the relationship with their dog. And one of my favorite things about working with clients is getting to help them rebuild that relationship and rediscover the joy in their dog and how important it is for their training process to not just focus on the training, but to also focus on the joy and the play and the discovery component of that.

So I think we should say, and we should change the phrase from stop and smell the flowers to stop and admire the cuteness. Let that oxytocin flow.

[00:42:52] Tiffany: Yeah, it's hard living with a dog with behavior issues, living with a dog who is a bite risk, living with a dog who you feel like you spend half of your day, just like making sure you like everybody in the house knows where, where he is. Making sure that barriers are up, you know, when you need them. Like it's, it's a lot of work.

and so you really have to kinda like take that moment when you're out in the backyard and you see him like put his nose up and you wonder what he is smelling or take a million pictures of him because he is the cutest baby. You, you have to like, you have to like savor those moments. And as someone who has a hard time, just like being present in a moment because of the way that my brain works, I just, I, I have to try so hard to like capture that.

I think that's why I take so many pictures because then I like have that that moment.

[00:43:59] Emily: And I will say that the reason that I wanted you to do this podcast episode with me is because you are an expert at this and you are a very good model for what it can look like to have a dog with, or any species for that matter with. Incredibly complicated and difficult behavior issues, and also really lean into the joy of your pet.

Like you lean in so hard and you make stickers of him. You celebrate him in so many different ways. you share your joy, you share your joy on social media. You share your joy with your team, with your friends. And that is, I mean, you are such a good role model for what it can look like to have a pet with complicated behavior issues and lean into the joy of that relationship so that you can get through the hard times.

Um, because I, I don't know anybody who does that as well as you do. You are, I would say, an expert at that. 

Yeah. 

[00:45:01] Tiffany: It helps when your dog is like really handsome, just like really handsome. So that's the only advice I have. Pick a dog who's like real good looking,

[00:45:13] Emily: I mean, you're not wrong. Pete is an extremely handsome boy, and also beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

Some of the, some of the cutest dogs I've ever seen are dogs that have made people gas before and ask me what the creature was.

[00:45:32] Tiffany: that too. But like he is objectively, he is very handsome.

[00:45:39] Emily: It's true. He is. That's right. You can't, you can't, um, you can't deny that. Okay. So part of that too is cultivating gratitude for all of the things that are wonderful about them. Because when you spend so much of your life focusing on managing or changing or supporting the things that are hard about them, it can be really helpful to also devote some time to, um, being grateful for the things that are wonderful about them.

So tell us some of the things that you are grateful for about pd.

[00:46:10] Tiffany: I have on my phone right now from last night, a 38 second video of him. Just like leaning into the fence and rubbing down it. And one of the things we put in the backyard in our little sensory garden was just like a strip of AstroTurf that we just like stapled to the, to the fence. And he rubs on it. And like, I let the, um, I forget what it is, I let the viney plants that just come up in the backyard, like grow onto the fence.

'cause then they turn red in the fall and they look cool. But like, sometimes he kinda like gets it on his back. And he and like does like that I just, he's such a freaking goon. 'cause then he leaned into the fence so hard that he fell down. And I just love him so much.

[00:47:01] Emily: That's delightful. I love it when dogs are such kind of a. Bull in a China 

shop that they like lose their balance.

[00:47:10] Tiffany: He is like leaning in really hard and then he hit the mulch and he is like, what?

He got right back up and like made another pass. He didn't care.

[00:47:19] Emily: Of course he did. Yeah. The other day, Miley and Copper were playing and Miley like slid and like smashed her head into her toy box and she just like immediately hopped up and was like, oh yeah, toys. She like pulled a bunch of toys outta the box and was like, look at these toys. Copper. It was delightful. I love it when they're just like, you know, total chaos goblins.

It's my favorite.

[00:47:42] Tiffany: I just, yeah. I feel like what we do in our household is really just like cultivate chaos.

[00:47:49] Emily: I mean, if you ask me, that's the only way to live life is cultivating chaos. I feel like that's the whole point of life is cultivating chaos.

and then the next thing is, reframing for yourself, how you think about the training that you're doing with your dog or, or other species. and I think that can really help, and I wanna be really, really careful here because, I don't agree with the really gross language policing things that people do, where people are like, you shouldn't call it demand barking, you shouldn't call it nuisance behaviors. Like that is so, that is so discouraging and aversive and shaming to people who are just using the best language they have available to them.

I just wanna be clear that we're not like, let's just take shouldn't out of the equation altogether because this isn't about correcting your language or making you feel ashamed for the language that you use because it's the best language available to you. however, the kernel of truth in all those really shady internet posts, is that it really does help you as a human being to reframe how you think about.

Dog's behavior because it makes it easier for you when your perceptions of what they're doing, is different. So some examples of that include if you, if you are thinking of it like I have to fix my dog's aggression. a good reframe for that is support my dog so that they no longer feel like conflict is necessary.

Help my dog find other ways to manage their stress so that they don't feel like they have to rely on conflict. that, that feels so different. It hits so different. If you go from thinking you have to fix their aggression to thinking that you are giving them the skills and support they need to no longer need to engage in conflict.

[00:49:33] Tiffany: Or rehab their aggression or whatever these words are that we see. It's like, I mean, you heard me tell a whole story about how my dog bit me, like recently. I don't think he's broken.

I think he's. I think he just needs some help and some guidance. That doesn't mean that I, I don't think that we need to take a lot of precautions as far as like safety and stuff. I think it's something that you need to take very seriously, but I, you know, I don't think that he's broken.

[00:50:10] Emily: I super agree with you. Yeah. It's not that we're not taking it seriously, it's that we're taking something different. Seriously. We're taking harm reduction, seriously. We're taking, improving welfare and wellbeing seriously. We're taking support for everybody involved seriously. And that's very different than fixing something that's broken.

Right? Another example is instead of thinking of like, I need to make my dog more obedient, think of it as like, how can I improve my communication with my dog? How can we be better communicators and collaborators with each other? Because it, again, like we talked about at the beginning of this episode, if you're thinking of it in terms of obedience, then you constantly have to exercise control and you have to micromanage your dog, and that's not a fun way to live.

It's not an easy way to live. 

[00:50:57] Tiffany: It must be so disappointing. It sounds like, it sounds like a way to be really disappointed all the time.

[00:51:05] Emily: Yeah. And like I said, I come from that background and I know many trainers who do it very successfully. They are very skilled at getting, perfect obedience from their dog. And I, none of them ev have ever looked like they're having fun. They all look very serious. They look like they're in work mode.

And, when they do have fun with their dogs, it's, it doesn't look like they're having fun. It's like, I need to perform fun now. And I'm like, that, that must not be a pleasant way to live. 

[00:51:33] Tiffany: I am just out in my backyard blasting my dog in the face with the hose and he is having a great time.

[00:51:40] Emily: yeah. Yeah. Again, I'm, I'm a chaos goblin and I encourage my dogs to be chaos goblins too. and then, so like another example is, 

[00:51:48] Tiffany: Also, if obedience is fun for you and it's fun for your dog and you're having a great time. Wonderful. Excellent. Perfect.

[00:51:57] Emily: Thank you for bringing that up because I wanna be very clear that we're not talking about obedience to the competition sport, which I am aware can be a lot of fun for a lot of people and a lot of dogs. And more power to you. I'm talking about the, uh, belief that, Dogs need to be obedient. They need to obey you, which is very different from the sport of obedience.

so yes, thank you for bringing that up to make sure there's no miscommunication. all right. And then the last thing is remember to play, I think we've probably already covered that really well here, but like, remember to play, um, whatever play looks like for you and your pets. And if, and if your pets don't know how to play, that doesn't mean they don't like it.

It doesn't mean that they're not playful. It means that you can hire a behavior professional to help you help your pet discover play. Because a lot of times they're not playing 'cause they don't wanna play. They're not playing 'cause they don't know how to play or they're too stressed to play or there's some medical reason.

So let's investigate why your animal isn't playing. but, but play, play with your pet or snuggle with them. If, if right now play is not an option for you at this moment in time, cuddles. Cuddles are 

great. 

[00:53:05] Tiffany: Well, and I think that finding that two-way communication, at least in my household, was a big part of like figuring out play. Because honestly, like I'm Pete's person. but he plays with Nathan. If he like wants to solicit play, it is never from me. He will go down in the basement when, when Nathan is playing a video game and he'll just start hollering at him and Nathan will take his headphones off and be like, bro, what?

Like, what do you want? And they'll go up the stairs together and grab a toy. And, in Pet Pro we did that, um, behavior observation, practice session of, of PD and Nathan play. And that is a game that they made up together.

[00:53:49] Emily: Yeah, that's cute. Kaya made up a game that she plays with me called the, I called the Boop game, because she, she will solicit this game from me, and she made it up. It was her, it was her thing. I didn't create it. So I think it's pretty cute.

So to recap, let go and let dog and let go. Looks like, give them agency and if there are areas of their life where they can't yet have agency, give them the skills so that they can have agency. learning the difference between obedience and responsiveness. Everyone is allowed to experience the entire spectrum of emotions, including non-humans. No one is perfect and beasts are beasts. And then for the Let dog part, stop and admire the cuteness. Cultivate gratitude for all the great things about your Beastie Beast. Find joy in their beefiness. Reframe how you think about the training you're doing and remember to play.

[00:54:45] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony. Here's a little bonus enrichment tip to thank you for listening to this episode. The best way to cultivate chaos constructively is to first cultivate curiosity. Ask yourself what you want, what you don't want, and where your boundaries lie so that you and your pet can be chaos goblins together in a way that still works for you and your household.