#165 - Juliana DeWillems: Set Your Dog Up to Succeed (Without Guilt)

Management is one of the most underused and misunderstood tools in dog training. KPA CTP and author Juliana DeWillems (she/her) joins Emily to reframe management (aka antecedent arrangement) not as a shortcut or bandaid, but as behavior science done proactively. They explore why good management increases a dog's options rather than restricting them, how it ties directly into enrichment, and why guilt around "not training" gets in the way of genuinely good outcomes. And for the professionals in the audience, they also get honest about building a sustainable dog training career, and it may look different than you think. 

TLDL (too long, didn’t listen): 3 Key Takeaways 

1️⃣ Management Isn't Cheating — It's antecedent arrangement, and when done thoughtfully, it improves welfare and the human-canine bond.

2️⃣ Management IS Enrichment — Arranging the environment to open up reinforcers and reduce conflict belongs in every enrichment plan.

3️⃣ There's No Single Right Career Path — Build toward your actual reinforcers. The "traditional" trajectory isn't necessary or always more lucrative.

For the full episode show notes, including the resources mentioned in this episode, go here.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Juliana: there are so many different ways to change behavior and when we're looking at enrichment, we're wanting a dog to just generally be like happier and have better welfare. Management can really help the human, human canine bond, which I would say increases the dog and human's welfare by reducing how much you have to rely on things like punishment and yelling at your dog and getting after your dog. And consequences.

I think of a simple management solution of. You know, using gates to keep your dog away from a shelf that has valuable things on it, you know, especially your, your young dog who's just eager to get into stuff and by arranging the environment, putting up some gates, you know, maybe having your dog in a large pen with a bunch of fun stuff in there. Whatever it is that takes saying no off the table, automatically, you're not getting as frustrated. Your dog isn't having to worry about are they coming over to me to play? Are they coming over to me to scold me? Which we know can actually have a really positive impact on a dog's day-to-day life and your relationship with your dog.

So I'm, I'm right there with you that I think beyond just even behavior change, there's so many other benefits to management that are right in line with what we're hoping to get out of enrichment as well.

[00:01:23] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:34] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:35] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:55] Emily: Okay. Tell us your name, pronouns, and pets.

[00:01:59] Juliana: I am Juliana de Willem. She, her and my pets are Matilda the Chihuahua and three Cats, Nemo, Dory, and New Cat.

[00:02:08] Emily: Oh. my gosh. Okay. Wait. So first of all, delightful that you have a Nemo and Adori. Love that.

And also, I love that your new cat's name is New Cat.

[00:02:17] Juliana: Yeah, we're very original with names around here and he came from outside. And so when we keep track of our, the feral cats that live in the woods behind our house, we come up with very straightforward names. One we named Poie 'cause she lived on our porch. One was Chester because she had a spot on her chest and once upon a time we thought she was a boy until she gave birth to Nemo and Dory.

Um, and then New Cat was once upon a time, the new cat who was coming around and his name just stuck for two years now.

[00:02:48] Emily: That's delightful.

When I was a vet, when I was a vet tech, we had a client who had a dog and a cat, and the dog's name was DOG and the cat's name was CAT, so they would call them DOG and CAT,

[00:03:01] Juliana: I love that. I love that CAT. And it's so funny because when you first hear that, you're like, that feels so weird. But when you, when you say it as a name over and over again for years, like it doesn't feel weird anymore.

Yeah. CAT. Yeah.

That was new. Cat was just on my desk. He, he really likes to, he's become so, it's so interesting watching personalities change as time goes by.

He's been in our home for maybe a year and a half now from living outside and he is always been nice, but it's so interesting watching time go by and just see him open up more and more. His personality keeps changing, which has been really interesting, obviously as a behavior professional. 

[00:03:41] Emily: Yeah.

yeah, yeah. yeah. I love that. I love watching them sort of like blossom

as time goes on. 

[00:03:47] Juliana: Totally. Totally. And you think, oh, you must be settled in by now. Like, this must be who you are. And then sure enough, you know, another year goes by and you get even more from them.

[00:03:56] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Well, tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:04:01] Juliana: Oh gosh. That's like where, well, I was born in 1989. No, I'm just kidding. Um, I've been a dog trainer since 2013 and I went through KPA right at the beginning of my career, thanks to another K-P-A-C-T-P who put me through the program. So luckily I got science-based education right away, and I worked under that K-P-A-C-T-P for six years after I got certified.

I worked in animal sheltering. I was on the behavior team of an open admission shelter. I worked with private clients in my twenties. I just got so much behavior, experience and training experience and then. Right when the pandemic started in 2020, I took the plunge to open my own business, which has been a huge other beast.

You know, I thought I was a dog trainer opening a business, and which I was, but that turned me into a business owner, which kind of takes you, as you guys know, down so many different ventures and, and pathways. You're trying to figure out how to, you know, have multiple revenue streams. You're trying to figure out what services to offer promptly.

Got burnt out, burnt out, seeing private clients. So my business has been, um, I have just kind of evolved over the past five years in the work that I do. I don't see private clients much anymore. I. Was busy writing a book for a couple years. I do a lot on social media. I run my business and the trainers who work for me.

Um, I still have a handful of regular clients who have been with me for years and years, so I don't see new private clients, but I'm still getting my hands on lots of dogs, which is amazing. And then of course, I teach for KPAI am faculty, so I have my KPA students who I work with, and that's kind of brought me to 2026.

I'm trying to create a life as a dog trainer, uh, that I enjoy that's fulfilling and that can pay my bills.

[00:05:55] Emily: Yeah. That's, that's the balance, right? Financially stable and also work life balance. That's, That's, the goal. 

[00:06:02] Juliana: Completely. Yes. That's my true mission in life and kind of unlearning these ideas that I have to, you know, work really hard, overdo it in order to be worthy of rest and in order to, uh, you know, make money be worthy of making money. So I'm unlearning a lot, which means I'm learning a lot as well and doing a lot of growing, which is really cool.

[00:06:22] Emily: Yeah, yeah. I, I, I feel this feels really hard. I'm, I'm currently on a journey of, of learning how to separate out commerce from capitalism and how I can be pro commerce and still be anti-capitalist and how that impacts how I view myself and how I like the choices that I make in, in my business and my work and my life. And, um, it's, it's definitely a journey, right?

[00:06:48] Juliana: It's really hard. I mean, we're all, whether we like it or not, we're stuck in the constraints of capitalism and, we've been conditioned a lot based on that system from our very, very beginnings. And so, yeah, there's a lot of relearning to do, but it can be very freeing when you start to figure some of those things out and, and pull apart your values and what is important to you and your life in your business and beyond that. So I'm glad you're on that journey. 

[00:07:15] Emily: Yeah. You know, like it just like you said, like it's so ingrained, like we're, we're kind of conditioned from birth to really tie very strongly our productivity to our worth and our sense of self. And I've known that for a long time. But unlearning that is like an iterative process of just peeling back layers and layers and layers. And I'll think I have it and then I realize I super don't have it. I've still got a long way to go. So yeah, it's a journey for sure. 

[00:07:45] Juliana: Yeah. And you know, we talk so much about making sure that our animals feel safe. And that's a huge part of, in Richmond is, is safety and cultivating feelings of trust. And for a lot of us, uh, while our productivity has been tied to worth, rest and play, have been, can feel really unsafe because that's what we've been told is like, if you rest, you're lazy.

If you rest, you're gonna get behind. And that, whether you realize it or not, those subconscious feelings really. Come into play. They, they become the antecedents for your behavior, which is just so interesting.

[00:08:20] Emily: Interesting, powerful, frustrating, heartbreaking, all those things. Yeah, the journey. 'cause I definitely, I definitely have that experience. Like I always had more than two jobs. There are periods of my life where I was working close to a hundred hours a week, if not more than a hundred dollars a week. Um, and then I, you know, my chronic illnesses just sort of caught up to me and I had a. Ironically, I crashed in 2020. It had nothing to do with COVID, it was just a coincidence. Um, but since then, learning how to be somebody. Who doesn't work that much, especially when I have two business partners who are both 11 years younger than me, and also have similar like hardworking, ethics, aesthetic, you know, um, and a constantly like comparing myself to them and, and then going through the journey of not comparing myself to them and then doing it again, and then not doing it again.

Like that, that process has been a journey at Allie and I have talked very openly about it, uh, in past episodes of the podcast about like, learning how to negotiate, what does, what does it look like to, to. Work together when we have different constraints that not better or worse, like she has constraints, Ellen has constraints. We all have chronic illnesses, but what does it look like to negotiate the division of labor when we're all coming to the table with different constraints? Right. Um, and that's just, it's really hard to do that in a way that gives yourself grace and forgiveness when we're living in like late stage capitalism. Right?

[00:10:01] Juliana: completely because we've assigned morality to some of these things like, you know, oh, you work less, that's bad. Or like, oh, you work really hard. That's good. And then, you know, you're having to, in addition to finding a life that literally, practically works for you, your body and your health, you're having to juggle these, these existing feelings and beliefs about what society has told us is literally right and wrong.

[00:10:29] Emily: Yeah. Yeah,

yeah. It is, it is. And I, I, this is, uh, a little bit of a tangent, but it, but bear with me because I'm gonna circle it back around. I've recently gotten really into watching like these YouTube channels where they travel around the world and it's just like people, it's not like these slick super produced television shows.

It's just like random people who get on their motorbikes and have a GoPro and go around the world and interact with people. And it has been really helpful for me to see, to watch these videos, not just because it's fascinating to see other parts of the world and cultures that you wouldn't necessarily have contact with otherwise. But for me, uh, in my head, I always was thinking, and I think this is a very geocentric like typical American mindset. I was like, well, I. I think part of the reason I kept getting sucked back into that capitalist mindset of tying my, my worth to my productivity is I would think like I, it's such a privilege for me to be able to no about of a schedule and a work environment that doesn't work for my body because most of the world doesn't have that privilege. Most of the world has to work regardless of what condition their body is in. And what I've learned from watching these YouTube videos is, that's true in some places. But I've actually been surprised, and maybe this is an embarrassing thing to admit, like, but I've been surprised about how many places around the world the communities actually support people with, with different bodies. And the, the work schedule and the work routines are look very different. And there's not that same pressure to. Just perform all the time. And I, you know, recently I've been watching a channel where they, they've been following the ancient Silk Road and they've been going through Central Asia, and, um, and I ha I've been watching these people who live very different lives than we do in areas that I just kind of assumed would be, um, really just like work, work, work, work, work, and just watching them live and operate as communities and just take care of themselves and support each other.

I'm like, oh,

[00:12:48] Juliana: It doesn't, it doesn't have to be like this. Oh wait, I've been fed a lie my whole life that this is the gold standard. Wait a second. I've been bamboozled.

[00:12:58] Emily: yeah, yeah. So, uh, so that's fascinating.

Um, but yeah. Uh, I'm so glad that we ended up on this topic because it, it's worth talking about because I think a lot of people, I mean, I know, I don't think. So many of our people in Pep Pro come to us and they're like, I don't have weekends. I work seven

days a week.

And also I can't make, make ends meet. And it's like this is such a common story in our industry that people are overworked and underpaid. And that was definitely, that has been my life story. Um, and, and so I'm not, I'm not coming from a place of like, why are y'all doing this to yourselves? I'm like, why are we doing

this to ourselves? Right? Um, but figuring out how to work less and get paid more. Um, and one of the biggest reasons that we don't do that is because we're concerned about accessibility for other

people who don't have money, and that they still have access to those services. And that is a really important thing to care

about. But you can't save someone from drowning if you're drowning right next to them. You have to climb into the boat first

to pull them outta the water. 

[00:14:08] Juliana: I realized very quickly in my burnout of 2020 of that I was, I wasn't serving anyone. I wasn't serving myself. My existing clients being booked out three months wasn't helping people who needed help immediately. You know, I would, I would have to miss a lesson because of weather and I couldn't reschedule them for weeks.

Like, it was, it was crazy. It's so not the way to live. Something that really resonated with me because I, it was that winter break that I really crashed out, um, because I was like, oh, my 10 day vacation will fix it, like LOL but I, this idea that you wanna create a life that you don't need a vacation from is really like, was really helpful for me because. Yes, of course taking breaks is really important and we can't rely only on those breaks. To save our sanity, we absolutely have to create an environment, which it really does feel quite similar to enrichment, where we wanna create environments for our dogs, where their day-to-day stress levels are extremely low and they are fulfilled and they're arrested and they get play and joy and happiness.

And we as humans deserve the exact same thing and we will operate the best with under those conditions.

[00:15:22] Emily: We strongly recommend, um, the Healthy Mind Platter by Dr. Dan Siegel because it is essentially an enrichment plan for humans. and just like enrichment plans for humans, you can engage with it in a way that is overwrought and overwhelming. So in and of, it's a tool like any other, right? It can be used or misused. Um, but teaching people how to create their own enrichment plan and make it effective and sustainable, um, has been a huge part of our journey in Pet Pro. And, um, and. Learning how to help people think about that enrichment plan as not being overwrought and overwhelming, like you're defeating the purpose of it if it's causing more stresses of

less stress. So let's figure out how to use an enrichment framework in a way that is actually enriching. Um, that's been such a huge part of the process because you're absolutely right. It is, it is an enrichment issue, right? And we, we can't continue to help others if we burn ourselves

out and we're not meeting our own needs and we're constantly chronically stressed. And so doing all of that is, um, I would, I, I'm gonna just say it, I think it's the most important part of the job.

It's the most important part, right? It's non-negotiable. 

[00:16:45] Juliana: Yeah, I completely agree. 

[00:16:47] Emily: if you're not meeting your needs and taking care of yourself and not living in an enriched life, how can you. Help other people do the same in, in a sustainable, prolonged way.

Right?

[00:16:57] Juliana: Yeah, because then by the way, you burn out. Like I'm not seeing new clients. I'm, I mean, I'm helping people in other ways, but there could be an argument that said if I took care of myself for the first seven years of my career, I could be still going right now in the way that I was. But I didn't, and I, and like many people, I totally burned out and some people completely leave the industry. And then again, who are you helping at that point?

[00:17:20] Emily: Yeah. I mean, I agree with you. This is not a disagreement. It's a, it is a yes and yes, and business owners sometimes have to make the call that there are, uh, more effective uses of their time than helping individual clients.

[00:17:37] Juliana: Yes, yes. yes. Totally. Totally. No, you're absolutely right. And I do still help a lot of people and. There are lots of people there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the masses versus the singles. and there are just a lot of singles that I haven't been able to help that have desperately wanted to work with me and I've had to say no to. So yeah, you're totally right.

[00:17:54] Emily: I mean, that was a thing that, you know, ally and I, I was the first one on our team to, to not take on private clients anymore. Ellen still sees private clients in at a limited capacity. Ally is like you, she's at the stage where she's not taking new clients, but she's still working with her own old clients. I mean, if I had, if some of my old clients came back and needed help, I would work with them, but I, they've all graduated, so I just don't have that anymore. But, um, the decision was because I can help more clients and their pets by helping the individual students and pet pro with their clients than if I just saw my own clients. And so it's a matter of like scalability and impact and all of that. You just make those decisions, which is part of that, that process of like the, the enrichment framework for yourself and your business and,

[00:18:42] Juliana: Totally. And I wish I could have made the decision like out of that, that feels like such a, um, such like a positive decision. Like, oh, I have these two roots that I'm are, are still fulfilling me, like private clients versus maybe switching my services and my organization and doing it this way to help more people and dogs like that sounds like such a great position to be in versus.

Me, like when I think of taking a private client right now, like I feel a sinking feeling in my body. I'm like, Ooh, like, ooh, don't have it in me. Like it's so my, my entire nervous system has a reaction to it. So it was really made out of, out of the decision to finally stop, was really made out of desperation at the last minute.

And I continued to take clients thinking like, if I'm a good teacher, I have to be seeing clients. If, if I can't, you know, if I'm gonna be a good practitioner, like I have to be getting out and getting hands on dogs. And so I really forced myself to do it for even longer than I wanted to. And now finally I'm like, no, I'm gonna actually listen to my body here and my brain and my heart and follow the direction that is most fulfilling to me, which also happens to be the root where I help a lot of people.

And, sorry, last thing. Sometimes I'm, I'm jealous of my trainers who they, they still have the ability to take a handful of clients a day. They're working virtually. Like there can be a really comfortable and um, and. Uh, there can be a really comfortable life there that pays your bills like that. That can be great too.

Like if you're just a single trainer filling up your books like that can be great. And some days I wish I could still do that, but I don't have it in me right now.

[00:20:18] Emily: Yeah, I love all of that. And there are a couple things that I wanna pull out of that and sort of emphasize one of those. One of the things that you said that's amazing is like how you have trainers who have a, just a, a comfortable life and a rhythm, and one thing that I've had to learn for myself is that different people have different. Areas of, of interest and expertise. And, and I felt this way as a vet tech, and I feel, I find myself feeling this way now as a behavior consultant. There were vet techs that I knew who worked at the same clinic their whole lives. They'd been there for 24 years. They had a rhythm, they had a routine. And I used to think, man, that would be such a comfortable life. And also if I had to do that, I would crawl out of my skin. Right? I don't have that ability to be that static. And, and same thing, like I have friend colleagues who that's all they want. They just, they wanna have their routine. They wanna work with their clients. They've got their group classes or their private sessions or whatever is paying their bills.

They love it. And I love that for them. And I love that for the world. And also, if I had to do that, I would crawl out of my skin because from the beginning, the thing that. Was kind of driving me was how can we have the most impact in this world? Like, what can we do? So all, like my, my fixation, I don't wanna call it an obsession because that maybe has a negative connotation, but my focus was. Maximum impact. And I would get impatient with people asking me to do inefficient things. Not, I am not an efficient person in terms of time management. I'm, that's, I'm gonna circle back 'cause that's another thing that you said that I wanna pull out. Um, the way my, my neurotype and my body works, it, it, I am not an efficient person.

I'm not a machine. I don't mean machine in a negative way, but I'm not one of those people who can just like, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk. But what I mean by efficient is the time that I'm spending in my job, am I helping one person or am I helping a lot of people, right? Like, so, so that, that level of impact was the thing that was always driving me. So we need people who just want to like, have their routine and their private clients in their classes and, and love that life and do it well. That is so important. If we had a a, a profession full of me, it would be a terrible profession. And also I had to recognize that that was never going to be my life. And that the thing that was driving me and and getting me outta bed in the morning was, was maximum impact. And so I'm not a that person, I'm somebody else. And, and learning how to be okay with that and not because I had framed it as I'm never happy, I'm never content. I can't, I'm not consistent, you know, all of these like negative, um, like lenses through which I was viewing my behavior, like part of letting that go is realizing that I am a different person and I have different interests and needs and I have a different role in our, in our field.

Right. So I think that's a beautiful thing that you brought up that like some of us should. Do the, the routine and some of us need to be restless. Um, and that's how we work together effectively, is we all have different roles. Right. The other thing that you, that you said that I want to kind of circle back to is that, that idea of like, Nope, I just lost it. Dang it. What did I just, I literally just said it to you. Oh, wow. It's totally gone. And I hate that because I was excited about it.

[00:24:05] Juliana: Well think about that because what I will say to your previous point is when people are creating their lives as a dog trainer, it is a balance between looking at others and seeing what they're doing and thinking, okay, it's working for them. Maybe I'll try that. And looking at others and comparing yourself and thinking, well, if this popular trainer in my town is being successful, I should be doing what they're doing, but I don't wanna be doing what they're doing.

Or like, I'm not as good at that, or that's just not how I wanna structure my day. Be very careful about comparing yourself to the other dog trainer. I stayed doing the same thing for so many years 'cause I was like, this is just what dog trainers do. We just, you know, pack our schedules with one-to-one lessons. Like, I didn't realize there was another way to be a dog trainer and still make a living from it.

[00:24:48] Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's super important. Um, I have lost the, the thread. I'm very sad about that, but, but, but that's okay. Move on. 

[00:24:56] Juliana: that's gonna itch your brain the whole time.

[00:24:59] Emily: Yeah, it is. That's true. Maybe it'll come back. But I mean, I think just in general, the, the take home of all of this is self-care, is client care. We have to learn how to separate commerce from capitalism and. And like find your niche. I think those are maybe the three like main points of what we just talked about is like those three things are, are probably like the take home points from that whole discussion.

[00:25:25] Juliana: Totally. I think a lot of it is self discovery, really getting honest with yourself about what you want, what in your life, in your business, what you're good at. And sometimes that means talking to peers. Sometimes that means hiring a business coach, and sometimes that means a whole lot of therapy, which was the case for me, so, 

[00:25:43] Emily: Uh, yeah. I mean it's still the, the case for me it's, it's been ongoing. I've been in therapy in years. I will continue to be in therapy for years and I mean, not just like, for so many reasons, right? Like one of the reasons being. Uh, this is a traumatic job, right? It is an emotionally expensive job, and so there's always gonna be some level of maintenance that needs to happen. And also, like many people, I am a person with a lot of past traumas and processing those is an iterative process too. Like the peeling back those layers happens in this, in, in this way too, where it's like, I'll think I've got a pretty good handle on stuff and I'm good and I've got it, and then I encounter something and, and start sobbing, and I'm like, oh, oh no, there's still more to this. There's more unpack here. Right? So I think, you know, it, it's just part of like emotional and, I don't know, let's, let's call it behavioral and emotional maintenance, right? Of like just taking care of our, our behavioral and emotional health.

[00:26:53] Juliana: big time because your, your personal life and your personal being is intertwined with your business life, whether you realize it and want it to be or not.

[00:27:01] Emily: Yes. Yeah,

absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the, you know, when you can look at things through that framework, it helps you to realize that maybe you don't, like, I think a lot of people put pressure on themselves to do a certain, take a certain path in this industry. Like, well, I'm going to, you know, be a dog trainer for 10 years and then I'm gonna get on the conference circuit and then I'm gonna publish a book.

You know, like, and I've had many people ask like, how did you come up with topics to speak on? How did you come up with, um, what you wanted to write in the book? And so I, I realize that there, it's not that they have a passion about something that they have to get out into the world.

They think that that is the path that they have to take. Right. And I'm like, that's not, that's not it. If you don't have something that you have to share with the world, you don't have to go on that journey. Right. And I, and I'm gonna say it because I'm gonna say it publicly because I've said it so many times.

Privately, I think more, more people need to hear this, hear this. If you think you need to do that path because it's more lucrative. It is, it is not, it's not necessarily more lucrative.

[00:28:18] Juliana: Yes, No, I will chime in here to say that I literally pursued that exact path. I was like, I wanna be speaking, I wanna be talking at these conferences because this is what the people that I learned from did. And I'm always achieving to be the best. Like in a, I know we've been conditioned to think like, don't think you're the best or like, try to be the best.

But like, I really, you know, you, I always wanna be my best self, which anyway, you know what I'm saying? 

[00:28:41] Emily: The best self you can be, not the best person that should, it's not a comparative, it's, it's an internal.

[00:28:46] Juliana: Totally. Totally, totally. 

[00:28:48] Emily: It's an internal comparison, not an external comparison.

That's what I'm trying to, 

[00:28:51] Juliana: Yes. Thank you. I'm, I certainly know I am not the best and will never be the best. I don't wanna be the best, you know, it's like I wanna be in a room full of everyone smarter than me. Um, but anyway, I did that and I think I started speaking at conferences in like 2022 or 2023 and 2023.

Between 2023 and 2024, I had like a major, another mini crash out of like, my business is not making me the money that I want it to be. That I thought it would be. Like, I'm still feel like I'm struggling. And that was like after I had, I had started to make a name for myself and, and I really did think that yes, these, these bigger opportunities would bring more money.

And all they did was take away from the wor, like take time away from the work that was making me a good amount of money. So yes, I'm, I'm right there with you. Like you, it's kind of a reality check when you realize, oh. This isn't getting me what I thought it would. This is not getting me access to the reinforcers I thought it would.

[00:29:47] Emily: Right, right. Yeah. Like, it's not, it's not, it's not the same thing as like fame and celebrity in Hollywood, you don't, you're not automatically making a ton of money just because you're talking at dog conferences. Right. And I, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this like, uh, maybe, maybe Allie and Ellen will have feelings about me saying this. Um, but we have students whom we have helped to make more money than we make because our students churn.

They have one thing that they do, they do it full time, and they are charging what their services are worth. And they have found the, the, the work life balance and the productivity. And we willingly, we went into this eyes open, knowing that. By sort of splitting our time between private clients, the mentorship program, books, conferences, podcasts, we were spreading ourselves out, which means that we're, it's not, it is not as lucrative as if we just did one thing and turned it right.

And also, if I had to do one thing and turn it, I would crawl out of my skin. So, So, like this idea that you have to have one path or one like the, that the i, the idea that success in this industry looks like. You spend a decade training, and then you do the conference circuits, and then you do the books and then ta-da, you're a millionaire. Like, um, that's not true. It's not necessary.

And it's, it's not the best or the only way to do this profession. Like, you really have to decide for yourself what you care about, what you want, what you're passionate about. And if that means you have to get books out onto paper, out of your brain and onto paper, then write a book. If that means you have things to share with the industry about ways that, that we can improve the industry you apply to, to speak on the conference circuit, but that's not, it's not necessary and it's not necessarily going to get you where you want to go in terms of financial stability or work-life balance. And, and so like, I, I really think that more people need to hear that there is not one trajectory and success does not look like being a published author, having a podcast. You know, speaking at conferences, it looks like doing whatever it is that you do that your niche is, that you're passionate about and you're good at, and you love doing that.

Well. That's what success looks like, regardless of what your niche ends up being. And like, honestly, I will say this, I love what I do. I love my job. I love Pet Harmony, I love my mentees. But if I won the lottery, all I would do is write books because I have so many things that I need that are in my head that I want to be out on paper. I would just be a, a book writer, but that's me. Like if you don't have book ideas and you're coming to somebody else asking, like, how did you decide what to write a book about y'all? Writing books is hard. It's a lot of work. It does not make a lot of money.

[00:32:58] Juliana: By the way, you make no money, right? Right. 

[00:33:05] Emily: You make no money. don't, don't feel like you have to write a book to, to be a, a real person in this industry. You. You don't do it unless you have to do it. The reason you do it is because not doing it is terrible.

[00:33:21] Juliana: Yeah. And my gosh, I, I am so grateful. We're talking about this and we're saying this out loud, that like the, the be all end all the gold standard Yeah. Is not these things that both society has normalized. Like be the one who's speaking in the room, be the voice of authority in the industry. Like it's that both society has done and our industry has done, you know.

Spent many decades propping up a very small amount of people. And now thanks to social media, we've got many more voices. You've got so many more ways to reach people and yes, I totally recommend thinking about your reinforcers because there might be somebody out there who's like, no, I really like, I've had a dream since I was a kid to write a book and like, I don't have a topic yet, but that is something I wanna do.

Like, great if that, if you really like, if that makes you feel fulfilled in your life, in your career to write a book, like go for it. As Emily said, it's extremely hard and you make negative money because of how much money you put. I mean time you put into it, but if you reinforcers are like, yeah, making a really good living or having good work life balance or like just making sure you're getting information out to people.

There are so many different ways to do that and sometimes there are better ways to do that than you might think.

[00:34:32] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, I will say that some of the best trainers I have ever seen, like watching them like actually training, are people that nobody has heard

[00:34:43] Juliana: Completely. Well, totally. I mean, and that's like a whole thing with our industry is like we propped up basically like two dozen people for two decades, and then finally, thanks to social media, we're realizing we're being exposed to different ideas, we're being exposed to different people, which is so important.

And I think, I think that's really shaking up the industry and the conferences are starting to realize they need to shake up their lineups. Otherwise we're just gonna stay on social media to learn, instead of paying all this money to go in person to learn. 

[00:35:14] Emily: Exactly, and, and no hate towards the two dozen people. The two dozen people got us to where we are. Like we're 

[00:35:22] Juliana: Right. They shaped us quite a bit. Yes. 

[00:35:24] Emily: Right. They're, they're the giants whose shoulders we are standing on. So it's not, it's not a criticism of them, it's a criticism of the exclusivity, right? And that like, there are more voices out there that, that we would all benefit from those voices being elevated and heard and from sharing ideas and perspectives and information and, and that I think is where we're at in the industry right now.

I love how many new people are showing up on the conference circuit. I love that we are increasing diversity, um, in all different facets of diversity, right? Like, I love that more people are getting to share their expertise. That is so important and it's so necessary. And also there are other ways to do that than just being on. Conference circuit, like some of the people that I absolutely adore have never spoken at a conference, but they put out such amazing social media content. And so like that's the other thing is now we have other ways to share our voices. And it's not just the conference circuit. You've got social media, you've got, well, I mean, okay. Really social media?

[00:36:37] Juliana: No, totally. Well, you have, yeah, social, right? Social media, podcasts, you know, communities are a really big thing now. Paid communities, and if we're talking about accessibility to our information, that's a really great way. Get a nice low cost Patreon going or whatever you decide for crowdsourcing and or getting your information out to big crowds.

And yeah, there's just the, the game has changed. The game has changed. And if you're looking again at your reinforcers, my reinforcers are making money and getting my information out to people, well, yeah, guess what? Social media is great for that. And that's a heck that can be way more scalable than any conference circuit you can get onto.

So that's where I think having people understanding, yeah, what dog training as a career can look like or does look like traditionally, and then being open to it looking other ways, I think is one of the best ways to making the life that you wanna live.

[00:37:34] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up Patreon because I think in my head when I was saying social media, I was sort of unfairly lumping Patreon and Substack into that category. And we could argue whether or not Patreon and Substack are considered social media. But I would say like one of the most important voices in our industry right now. And I'm saying that with a lot of like asterisks and caveats because I, I, again, I'm not, I don't believe in like a best or a most important,

I think there's a lot of value, but, um, a person who's saying things that need to be said and aren't being articulated nearly as well as he says it is Aaron draws dog, uh, draws dogs who he, he has an Instagram account, which is amazing, but his Substack is so substantive and he articulates things with, uh, an elegance and a thoroughness that really we don't see a lot in our industry.

And he is a person that I send people to when I'm teaching them about epistemology. I'm like, if you wanna see good epistemology, go read Aaron's Substack. Right? I don't think Aaron will ever be on the conference circuit because I don't think he wants that.

I don't wanna speak for him, but, uh, and, and if, if he, if I'm wrong and, and he wants to, then I apologize for, for making that assumption, but based on reactions that he's had to other types of, like, you know, platforming offers for platforming. I, I, it seems to me that he's not interested in that. And that's great.

That's great. He doesn't have to be

right. He doesn't have to write a book, he doesn't have to have a podcast. He doesn't have to speak at conferences in order to be incredibly impactful

and influential. Right. 

[00:39:26] Juliana: Yeah. Impactful and influential. I think those are reinforcers for a lot of us, and I think what this conversation has reminded us in those listening is that you can do that in so many different ways. Instagram, TikTok, Substack, Patreon, uh, podcast if you want to, YouTube videos, TikTok videos. I think the digital age, while the internet and AI has come with so much horrible things, there's also the internet specifically has brought so much good and the ability to reach people, the ability to build community, especially if you're a trainer who is in a, a, like a challenging area.

You don't have colleagues near you, you don't have a lot of client base near you. The options to expand your impact are significantly more online, which thank goodness. 

[00:40:16] Emily: Thank goodness. It's one of the good things about technology with all of the, you know, technology is fraught. Um, but, but it is one of the good things about it is there is more accessibility, right? Which is beautiful. We've been talking about books a lot and sort of dancing around the topic of, of how writing books is a lot of work and makes you negative money. Um, but like, one of the reasons that I am so glad that you're here and that, um, I, in a perfect world, we would've had you on sooner, like, you know, maybe right after your book came out is because I love your book. I think, you know, I'm a super fan, um, of your book and i've been promoting your book everywhere all the time. We talked earlier about how we want, like, we write books because we have something to say, like there's something that we need to get out of our brains and on paper. can you talk about the writing of your book and the topic of management, how that came about for you and the importance of it, of management for you and, and, and every, and all of that stuff, because I, I definitely have things that I would say about it, but I want, I want you to say what you wanna say about it.

[00:41:34] Juliana: Yes, thank you. And I definitely want to express gratitude about how much you have been supportive of my book and, and talked about it. I really, really appreciate your support. So it is interesting to think back to 2022. I was still kind of in my very overachiever mode and I was like, what's next? You know, what am I gonna do?

And I'm like, uh, okay, I'm gonna write a book next. Like I really was like, what if I became an author, which I, I still like, love and appreciate that version of me that like, was so um, ambitious. Um, and then I did have the thing of like, well, what am I gonna talk about? And then very quickly I thought, oh, management.

I love management as a trainer, I love it with my clients and no one knows about it. Like no average Joe with a dog knows what management is. I think it is so valuable. I think it is so accessible in for many. Management practices, like I love the topic and there's a huge void in the, in the dog book space, in the dog education space for especially the general public about the topic of management.

So my reinforcer for this one was definitely getting in the information out there. I was like, I want to normalize management. I want to popularize it. I want to educate about it. And so I wrote a whole book about it.

[00:42:57] Emily: I'm so glad you did. When I got the manuscript, I was like, why has nobody written about a book about management? Um, and so like, I, before I even read it, I was like, oh my God, thank you. Like this is amazing. Um, and then the book was delightful. I I, I love that you think about and talk about management in the context of enrichment, because I think so many behavior professionals think of management as intrinsically restrictive, right? And like, if we, we, and, and not just think about, but like. Practice management as restriction. And one of the things that I loved so much about your book was how it really highlights that really good management done well, more often than not, not always. I mean, sometimes we require legitimate restriction, at least temporarily, and it can be it can it ha some?

I mean, I've had some really severe cases where we had to do a lot of restriction at first, and then over time we were not able to. But I love that your book really emphasizes that more often than not. Really good management increases agency and gives the animal more options and choice and control rather than less of it. So I would love to hear you talk about that and how you think about it and how you coach that share, share that, because that is, it's such an important message that I don't think has been adequately articulated in a sort of like long form content or not long form, but um, a bigger, more in-depth content before. Right.

[00:44:47] Juliana: Yeah. And so, you know, you and I, I forget if it was on or off air, but we talked about when you write a book, there's such a long space between when you write it and when it actually goes out to the public. And I actually do wish that I had spoke more about things like degrees of freedom, behavioral variability, and given people a bigger picture.

Look at like, yes, you are trying to change behavior and there are, there is a line where you, um, attempts to reduce your dog's. Unwanted behavior does become way too restrictive because I think that's really hard for the average person to assess, especially when they're first into behavior or they're first learning about management.

I think that's something that as trainers we need to do, be doing a really, really. Good job at constantly assessing welfare. When we implement a management, uh, intervention, I think we absolutely need to be asking ourselves, is this the the least stressful option? In some cases it is. In some cases it isn't.

Meaning like perhaps in the dog's perfect world, they wouldn't be managed at all. But like for safety, we have to do at least a little bit of management controlling their environment. Um, but are we seeing an increase in stress with the use of management or in what we want is a decrease in stress behaviors, stressful body language when we implement management because we really want management to be able to open the door to more desirable behaviors that can also access the dog reinforcers.

Whether that's the reinforcer they would've gotten without the management or alternative reinforcers. I think that's really, really important. In the book, I talk about how management is different than punishment because while they both reduce behavior, uh, or yeah, they both reduce behavior management.

Does that through antecedents and punishment does that through consequences. However, that's not to say that management can't be aversive. A dog stuck on a tether, which is a version of management, might find that extremely frustrating. A dog put in a crate under, under whatever conditions you, you're trying to manage them, could find that extremely stressful and aversive.

So we just always need to have top of mind that when we are implementing management, which is antecedent arrangement, manipulating the environment that our dogs still have, they can have, uh, options and access to many different behaviors and ideally different reinforcers.

[00:47:27] Emily: Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm gonna tell on myself here because I had a case that was legitimately difficult. It was, um, an older gentleman in his eighties who had adopted a really large, uh, herding breed dog from a local shelter. I mean. I, he looked like an Aussie, but he weighed almost 70 pounds and he wasn't overweight.

He was just really big. So I think he

was, um, he had to have been a mixed breed, like Aussies are not almost 70 pounds. But this dog had so many issues and the, his owner physically couldn't handle this dog when the dog was really struggling. And so, you know, we started with muzzle training and then I realized this dog was really sensitized to visual input.

So then we trained him on a calmly cap and then I realized that he needed, um, we, we kind of modified a balance harness so that we could get, it wasn't just the front and the back clip, but we actually ended up running the front clip under his chest so that. The guy didn't have to pull as hard to get the same sort of like restriction. Um, so it was, it was not for the benefit of the dog, it was for the benefit of the human being able to like, um, with, with the strength that he had actually stop the dogs forward movement. Right. And I looked at this dog who had a muzzle, a calming cap, a harness with leashes wrapped around him. And I was like, what am I doing this?

If I had to wear something like this, I would be panicking. I would be claustrophobic. Like, what am I doing? This is not it. This is not what management should look like. And so I told the client, I was like, I think we've been in the process of like trying to solve problems individually. We've maybe missed a bigger picture strategy that's available to us, because we shouldn't have to have this dog.

I mean, look like Hannibal Elect, he's in such a, like, constrained setup. Right. And so, um, what I actually had to do, c Okay, and I need to back up a little bit. The reason we were doing all of this is because the the client insisted on walking his dog because his doctor and his physical therapist told him to take a walk every day, and he wanted to be able to exercise himself and his dog at the same time, which is reasonable, right? But I think what, um, I, the, the thing that I had missed was I need to actually. Get to the root cause of your pain point and address that rather than trying to accommodate a request that you have that is requiring us to do this. Really. Maybe veian is a little bit hyperbolic, but like really, uh, restrictive setup, like really coercive and restrictive setup. So we talked about what it could look like to give the dog other ways to exercise and, and let the gentleman go on his own walk stress-free. And one of the things I talked about is like, I am sure that if you talk to your doctor about how stressful your walks were with your dog, your doctor, I

would agree that right?

The, the cost is outweighing the benefits of the walk, right? So we want your walk to be. Um, something that is peaceful and joyful for you and, and relaxing and lets you, you know, move your body and get those endorphins. You can't get endorphins going when you're constantly stressed about your dog. So how can we give your dog what he needs at home so that you don't have to, um, put him in his getup and be stressed on the walk and and also meet the dog's needs while we work on giving the dog skills that eventually, someday he might be able to go out on walks with you and having that conversation with the client, like he was really concerned about the time and the bandwidth and the effort he would have to take to give his dog that exercise.

And so we just played around with different games that would. Work for him that were easy for him. I introduced him to a chuck it because one of his things was that like his shoulder would hurt if he kept like throwing the ball for his dog. I was like, that's valid. What about a chuck? It, um, the chuck, it was still a little hard for him, so I, and, and by the way, I, I brought my own stuff so that he could try it with that before he had to buy it. And I was like, okay, well what about a foxtail? And you know, the foxtails are like the tennis balls with the nylon tails on them, the tennis balls. He could, he could swing it and then like just release it from his wrist and he didn't have to have a lot of shoulder involvement that worked for him. So we did a foxtail. Um, I taught him how to do scatter feeding in the yard. He had a pretty big yard, so the dog, his dog would have to run around to find the food. So he was exercising while eating breakfast. Um, we, we did, I think we ended up doing a flirt pole, but modified so that he didn't have to actually hold it. Like we put it in, in the ground in, um. You know the how, uh, for the tables with the

umbrellas, there's like the, the stand in the ground. We put the flirt pole in that. And so all he had to do was pull the rope. The pole itself was, was fixed to the ground, and he just had to pull the rope to move the toy, right? So we found things that he could physically do, and that got the dog moving, and it was still managed because the dog was not going out in public, and we weren't risking the dog hurting anybody. Um, but the dog had so much more options and skills because of that. And, and the, the client was able to go on his walks and not hurt his body to play with his dog. And, um, and that was like a really big moment for me of like, I, I need to be more thoughtful about, instead of thinking of management as solve this problem, solve this problem, solve this problem. Like, let's scale back and look at the bigger picture and what does. Enrichment based management look like, right.

[00:54:25] Juliana: I love all of that. And you said so many great points. I think the first in of which being that

there are so many different versions of management. I think that's huge. Antecedent arrangement, which remind remember is all management is, is there are infinite options. And I think you bring up a really important point that our, how much we reach for management and the situations where we reach for management and the management that we implement is going to be dependent on our knowledge, experience, and expertise level.

You might hit a point, like somebody might hit the point where they have that dog all geared up for the walk and that's, that's all they can think to do as a trainer or behavior consultant. That's where their experience ends. But luckily you had the experience and understanding to say, wait a second.

This doesn't have to be the end goal. Let's try these other options. And exactly like you said, it's still a version of management to not walk the dog, but everything else you implemented increased his options, increased his enrichment activities, probably honestly increased his exercise because a straight walk on a leash is, doesn't sound like it's actually meeting that dog's needs.

So there are so many important takeaways in that, that when relying on management, if you are starting to feel like you are overmanaging, that's probably a cue to check in with a colleague, a another trusted professional and say, Hey, can I talk through this case with you? And always be thinking, is this.

Getting the, just like for the human, the cost benefit, you know, analysis. Like for this dog who, sure, he gets to go out in on walks, but at what cost? You know, he's still vigilant. He's uncomfortable with all the gear he's making, he's wearing, and everyone's stressed. He's probably coming home stressed. Is that really the outcome that we want management to accomplish, which is very similar to what you guys say about enrichment.

What is the outcome of the enrichment 'cause that's what you need to evaluate. I think management and the antecedent arrangement that we're choosing is the exact same way.

[00:56:38] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I really think that management. When done well is enrichment. I mean, it is a, it is a part of an enrichment plan, right? Because if we are looking at how to reduce harm, improve welfare and wellbeing, give the animal as much choice and control as possible, then treating management as separate from that miss is an opportunity to not only have it be more effective, but also more efficient when you're looking at it as a whole picture of like, um, I am going to use enrichment to help improve this dog's, um, experience and also the client's experience. And a part of that enrichment plan is the antecedent arrangements that will give them the most opportunities to thrive while minimizing their opportunities to cause harm to themselves or others. Right.

And, and that's like, that is what I loved about your book is I, I hear you about, I'm in the process of writing the second edition of our book, so I, I hear you about like after publishing the book, being like, oh, there are things I wanted to add to that,

or change or whatever. Um, but even, even the, your, as you wrote it, I think that message comes across really clearly of like, you have to think about management as how is this improving the outcomes for the humans and the animals involved, right?

[00:58:05] Juliana: Yeah, and you know, I think of there are so many different ways to change behavior and when we're looking at enrichment, we're wanting a dog to just generally be like happier and have better welfare. And I think, which I wrote about in my book, that management can really help the human, human canine bond, which I would say increases the dog and human's welfare by reducing how much you have to rely on things like punishment and yelling at your dog and getting after your dog.

And consequences. I think of a simple management solution of. You know, using gates to keep your dog away from a shelf that has valuable things on it, you know, especially your, your young dog who's just eager to get into stuff and by arranging the environment, putting up some gates, you know, maybe having your dog in a large pen with a bunch of fun stuff in there.

Whatever it is that takes saying no off the table, automatically, you're not getting as frustrated. Your dog isn't having to worry about are they coming over to me to play? Are they coming over to me to scold me? Which we know can actually have a really positive impact on a dog's day-to-day life and your relationship with your dog.

So I'm, I'm right there with you that I think beyond just even behavior change, there's so many other benefits to management that are right in line with what we're hoping to get out of enrichment as well.

[00:59:27] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, because that, I mean, like that is the biggest issue with most people. Their biggest pain point that they may not even know, like the root cause of their grief and shame and embarrassment is the fact that they don't have a great relationship with their dog and they want to, and they, and they're tired of constantly being in conflict with their dog. And that's where management can be so impactful is just re like reducing, sometimes, eliminating the need for conflict between the dog and the, um, so that we can focus on all the things that do help build that relationship and improve it and make it better. Right.

[01:00:13] Juliana: Completely. And I wrote the book, and I say this in the book where. I believe so deeply in the human canine bond. And I think people love their dogs so, so, so, so, so much. And there might just be a behavior here and there that maybe they wish they could change or that they don't like that their dog does.

And like management can literally solve that. Like you said, it can either reduce it or completely eliminate it, and that it truly can solve your problem. And I loved having the opportunity to go into, is this cheating? Is this a bandaid? You know, like you said, the guilt and shame. So much of that comes up because people think they're supposed to train their dog a certain way, or Oh, you know, oh, I know I need to train fluffy.

It's like, I don't. know. No, you don't. Like if you person right, I'm like, oh, whatever. If it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother me. And if it does bother you, hey, you've got this probably super easy solution here you can do. You know?

And so I just think like it's so, it's such an incredible intervention. I mean, we know the value of.

Getting ahead of behaviors, there's a reason. It's the antecedent comes first, and then behavior and consequence. When we are only focusing on consequences, I'm talking about positive reinforcement or not. When we're only focusing on consequences, we are missing so much about how to effectively change behavior and often in significantly easier, and in some cases, more humane ways.

[01:01:35] Emily: Yeah. I mean, and I think I, I, for, I am so glad that in the book you talk about like, all the weird ideas that people have around management, like it's cheating or, you know, a bandaid or, you know, whatever. Um, I think it, it's fascinating because. We don't think twice about doing antecedent arrangements for ourselves or, or our children. Like I, I have so many antecedent arrangements in my house to make my, like, just day-to-day life easier. And I, I, and I don't, I mean, like, so for example, I have, um, a lot of, I have to do like these PT exercises. I have all these things that I have to do, and I realized that I wasn't doing them because the, where I put the equipment was kind of a pain in the butt to get like, and unpack it, get it all out, and when I'm done, put it back up again. And so I just got one of those little, like, fabric, what are they called? The little fabric boxes. Um, and I put all that stuff in it, and I put it right next to my nest so that like, it's right there. I pull it out, I dump it back in. Easy peasy fantasy arrangement. I can do my physical therapy exercise is no problem. I had, uh, for a while I had to do chair yoga instead of what I normally do for exercise, um, because of my feet. And, um, I, at the time I was putting my laptop on my chair when I was sitting at my nest and I would skip chair yoga because my laptop was on my chair. And I was like, I don't wanna move it. And so I just guided the habit of like, when I'm done with work, I put my laptop back on my desk and then after dinner I would come in and do chair yoga.

No problem. 'cause the chair was empty. It's so silly that those little things were barriers for me, but that's how our human brains work. And like trying to willpower your way through that. I mean, some people can do that if they have the right neuro type and they have the right learning history. But, but like, first of all, is that really how you wanna live your life?

Making everything hard? Do you have the capacity then to put in the effort when something is legitimately hard? Um, or have you burned away all of that energy on these like little things that you were harder than they needed to be because you felt like life is suffering and no pain, no gain, right? Um, but also for some people with some neurotypes and some learning histories, um, there's no such thing as powering through that stuff, right? So, so like we. I mean, I, now that I'm saying this and talking this through, I'm realizing that like actually we maybe aren't as a species that great about doing anine arrangements for ourselves either. But I do think that for us it's, we have fewer myths around Anine arrangement for ourselves or our kids.

Like nobody thinks twice about putting, you know, those little plastic outlet covers on when they've got a toddler in the house. So we are better at it when we're thinking about ourselves and our kids than we are at our dogs. Although having now talked that through, we're also, there's room for improvement in how we think about it for ourselves as well.

[01:04:56] Juliana: Yeah, I think two side, two things with that one, yes, we understand that especially children, toddlers, babies, baby proofing. Oh, baby, proof the house. Many people, although not all understand. Yeah, you don't want the baby to hurt themselves or touch the thing. You just move it. Because also, by the way, you can't teach a baby right from wrong.

You can't teach a baby. Yes and no. Like there in many cases, there's an understanding there and there are so many people who do not see the world through the behavior lens that we see it through. They do not understand how behavior works, which is such an interesting, it's like anything, like you behave all day long and you still have no idea how behavior works, which we do see a lot with humans ourselves and with children.

I mean, how many times have we watched a parent go, no, Sally don't do that. No, Sally don't do that. No, Sally don't do that. It's like, maybe move Sally or like maybe move the thing that Sally's like getting into, you know. Uh, for us, we go straight to how can we modify the environment to one, make this less frustrating for us?

You know, that's the bottom line. It's like there's, it's so much easier. And two, help Sally be more successful. Like, that's so easy for us to understand. Like for you, you can under, you can notice that the laptop is in the chair and moving the laptop increases your chair. Yoga behavior. Like you can put two and two together.

But unfortunately, there are also a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily put two and two together, who wouldn't realize that if they just made their, their exercise stuff more accessible, then the behavior of exercising would increase. Like there's, and that's where I talk like a very little bit about it at the end of the book.

And I, I also use situations where people like already are doing it, but I think we would be so, it, it would be so beneficial for us as humans to talk more about it. How can you make your life easier every single day through antecedent arrangement? Because it is. Wildly valuable and effective?

[01:07:00] Emily: yeah, yeah. I mean, you're, you're absolutely right. I, I often wonder what the world would look like if the basics of

behaviorism were taught in high school 

[01:07:13] Juliana: please, please. I mean,

children would be less traumatized. Um, parents would be less frustrated. Uh, your coworkers would be less frustrated, like every, everything life would get. So we would, it would improve the world significantly, I think, personally. 

[01:07:33] Emily: I mean, and I just, I watch, you know, people be so frustrated by something that to me is just very obvious and I feel sad. Like not, I never, I've never felt judgmental feelings about things like that. I just feel sad that like most people don't have access to basic behavior

skills that would make their lives so much easier and less frustrating. And that's a real bummer. But in the meantime, like that's what we get. Our job is to help

people learn behavior and. Our field is focusing on animals, but I don't know how many people have told me that. Like what they learned from working with me with their pets has actually helped them with themselves and with their kids and with their friends and family.

So like that to me is a great joy of working in this field, is that like we get to help people indirectly by helping their pets and that's pretty cool.

[01:08:34] Juliana: Totally. And you know, we've all seen exactly what you're talking about, which is when we teach people the principles of positive reinforcement, for example, and we start, they start to apply that in their everyday life and their relationships and their interactions with others, and they realize how it can change their life.

And now I think where it's time to start teaching our clients about management and that a lot of times in the context of dog training is gonna look like, okay, you need to remember to take the treats on your walk. Let's put the treats directly next to the leash. You know, you need to have Kongs ready, uh, for dinner time.

Let's figure out a time where you can. Stuff those, and let's find a, a stuffing concoction that's easy for you. Like, you know, there are so many ways that we can teach people about antecedent arrangement in their lives with their dogs that can then start to help them realize it in other areas as well.

[01:09:27] Emily: yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I, I just, I, I love, um, I have, I'm gonna brag on Ally for a little bit because she is brilliant in so many different ways. But one of the brilliant things that she did was she made a little worksheet for our clients. It's like a management worksheet, and it's like a little chart and it's like, list the behaviors that are a problem on here, and then like. What happens before the behavior? What are some ways that we could maybe stop that behavior? What have you already tried? Why has the, what you've tried not worked or not been enough or whatever? So people who don't know anything about behavior have no concept of an arrangement can do that thought work and come up with some pretty good answers.

And then when we meet with them in person, we get to help them refine those answers and troubleshoot. But it helps us to see very clearly, um, a lot of times that people haven't even really paused to think why they're doing what they're doing. Like they've accidentally done management strategies because they're annoyed. Um, and. We're like, okay, well how's that management strategy working for you? If it's working great, we don't need to change it is if there's, if it's not working or we can make it better, let's do that together. But, um, I, I love that so much because it's such a good way of getting people who know nothing about behavior to think through their management process, which helps us as behavior professionals see more clearly what their thought process is, what they're actually identifying, what they're able to identify, um, what they've tried and how successful their attempts have been. You know, when I was still seeing private clients, I used that worksheet all the time 'cause it was just so helpful. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about behavior is that obviously it is a very complex topic. There are multiple fields of, of study and research and academia about different facets of behavior. But behavior, observation, basics can be learned. And just even knowing those basics can be just a huge, huge benefit, right?

[01:11:42] Juliana: I love that, that thinking about helping clients or like giving clients that worksheet that like almost makes me wanna see clients again. I'm like, that would be so cool to one. Like get people thinking from that perspective. And again, it's like this next evolution we've gotten people to understand if you wanna see a behavior more, you have to reinforce it, look for the behavior you like, reinforce the behavior you like, like that we finally are like, have spent the last 20 years like helping people understand.

And now we're like, back up even more what's happening before the behavior. And it helps people really figure that out for themselves. And I think it would be so interesting to have like an obvious, like, you know, what happens before the behavior and help have people realize, wow, this would be so easy to avoid.

You know, and, and helping them realize yes, where they are already doing management, where it would be so easy to management, you know, every time, uh, fluffy looks out the window, fluffy barks at something, and then, and it's just this like glaring opportunity for easy, low lift management, you know? 

And. And I, and that would just be so cool.

And it would allow opportunities for somebody to say like, well, fluffy steals, you know, tissues out of the trash. And what happens before, I don't know, fluffy goes into the bathroom and it's like, okay, well what about a trash can with a lid on it? And there's, and there so often there are these moments of like, well, I didn't know that's all I was allowed to do that.

Like, it could be that easy. It's like, yes, it can truly be that easy. So I just love coming at behavior from that perspective with your clients. That's incredible.

[01:13:22] Emily: Yeah. It's, it's so helpful. And um, and you know, I think what's interesting is, uh. For the most part, clients are actually pretty good at filling up that worksheet. Like if you just ask them to think about it, most people are perfectly capable of, of going, of doing that thought work. Right. So it's accessible. Like it doesn't require them to have any professional skills whatsoever to be able to, to, to do their own management assessment. Right? 

[01:13:51] Juliana: And so empowering, you know, one of those skills that they, they fill out that workshop for worksheet for 5, 6, 7 behaviors, and suddenly they're becoming quite fluent at that, that skill. And so when a behavior comes up two years down the road, they can think back to, oh yeah, well what were those questions that they asked me?

Okay, well, you know, and that's, so that's really cool.

[01:14:14] Emily: yeah. I love it. All right. Well, I have, I have really loved talking with you. Um, our time is coming to an end at the end of every interview. I like to ask people the same set of questions. Um, so we'll, we'll go through these. The first is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[01:14:37] Juliana: If you're a trainer, I would say, let's have your actionable item be that. You start asking your clients about what happens before behavior and is it avoidable? Maybe you can even create your version of the pet harmony management worksheet. Yes, and observe. I would put that under observable behavior as well.

[01:15:01] Emily: Beautiful. What is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession, or enrichment, your choice?

[01:15:10] Juliana: I wish people knew that management was not cheating, and management, if it works as a solution, is perfectly acceptable whether or not someone thinks it's quote unquote training or not, because by the way, dogs are always learning, and so management influences what a dog learns and therefore puts it under the category of training.

[01:15:28] Emily: love that. Love that. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[01:15:35] Juliana: Gosh, oy. Um, more diversity and Accessibility, Accessibility, yeah. Yeah. Just period.

[01:15:48] Emily: Just in general. Yeah. What do you love about what you do?

[01:15:52] Juliana: I love helping people. I love helping people. I love helping them see the best in their dog. I love building the hu human canine bond. I love making a positive impact.

[01:16:05] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Same. All right. Well, what are you currently working on? If people want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you?

[01:16:14] Juliana: Come follow me on social media, both TikTok and Instagram, JW Dog Training. When I have projects, that is where I announce them. I have an app if anybody's interested. It's called Dog Training. Plus you can find all the links in my social and you cannot work with me. But if you wanna work with my team, you can find my website on your, my social media as well.

[01:16:33] Emily: Beautiful. Juliana, thank you so much for spending some time talking with me today. It was truly a joy, and I look forward to seeing you at Clicker Expo.

[01:16:44] Juliana: Thank you so much, Emily.

[01:16:45] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony.