71 | Jay Kim on AI, Tech, and Ministry

In this episode, Glenn Packiam sits down with pastor and author Jay Kim to explore how church leaders can navigate technology and AI with wisdom and clarity. Drawing on ministry experience in Silicon Valley, Jay reflects on how digital tools can serve as a “front door” for connection while still pointing people toward embodied spiritual formation and community. Together they discuss how pastors can embrace innovation without losing the irreplaceable power of human presence in ministry.

• Pushpay exists to bring people together and help people be known. Through our innovative suite of products, we cultivate generosity by streamlining donation processes, enhancing communication, and strengthening connection. Visit Pushpay.com to explore how our digital solutions can support your mission and vision for the future of your ministry.
• Download Barna’s newest report, developed in partnership with Pushpay, Technology for Missional Impact, to explore how churches are using digital tools and AI to support ministry and mission. Download the report here.
• Download Parenting the Open Generation at worldvision.org/resilient26. 
• Watch this episode on Barna’s YouTube Channel.

View all Resilient Pastor podcast episodes on our podcast page.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Well, welcome everybody to the Barna Brazilian Pastor Podcast where we help pastors find wisdom, hope, and courage to lead well in a changing world. I'm Glenn Packham, and this podcast is part of Barna's mission to encourage and equip pastors to be resilient. And that means spiritually, emotionally, in their leadership. And so the goal here is that together we'll explore some new research, have some real conversations to help you understand the times and know what to do. And if you're not doing so already, go to Barna.com and sign up for free Barna, uh the free Barna email, and you can access the latest Barna articles, resources, special discount offers, and more. Guys, it's um March Madness. We know that Sharon is a Duke fan. Oh. And uh, I'm just curious, how mad do you get in March Madness? Go to E Sharon, because uh I have medium madness for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Medium mad.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I mean, do you do a bracket? Do you do a party? Like what do you cancel work? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I thought I'd like share this with you. So I like y'all, when y'all talk about sports, like 99% of the time, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I have no idea. I don't even know. Like, you could name a team, and I don't know like what actual sport you're talking about. But when it comes to Duke basketball, it's kind of the opposite, but my emotional investment is actually so high that I have to emotionally distance myself from it. And so I sort of like I've learned over the years, and you have to understand like I'm in the middle. Our church is literally in between Duke and UNC. And so this past month, when UNC, it was just a heartbreaker, they beat us at the very end. And then I had to go to church the next morning, where I would have people at my church who who I love and I assume love me, but then come up to me and get an inch from my face and say, Go heals. Like I like I think they're coming to encourage me and then said that's what they say straight to my face. And so that's not right. I have to guard my guard my heart by you know keeping kind of an emotional distance, but that that's so medium mad.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

That was a tough game. I I yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. And and you have a divided, you're pastoring in divisive times, Sharon.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yep. So but I mean, we always say Jesus tore down the dividing wall of hostility. And so, but we we haven't embodied that fully yet.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

So you know, I don't watch uh, I mean, I in the 90s I used to record March Madness games um back in the Stone Age there on my VHS tapes and everything like that. Uh but so now, I mean, I'm it's okay now. Uh and I don't have I mean St. John's basketball is probably where I'm most emotionally invested, but it takes a while these days. I've never done a bracket, by the way. I've never done like a March Madness bracket. What? Never once in my life. Maybe what? Yeah, no, no, uh, yeah, and I don't plan. I I just part of it is also is my I I can get so obsessed. I have an obsessive uh thing to me where if I start going down that road, like I'm already in a bad place with my regular sports teams, and I add now March madness to that. I'm like really in an emotionally dysregulated place.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Yeah. No, you know what? I I I don't care about college basketball. I I I am uh it's fun. The the the actual tournament is fun, but I have no emotional investment. That's true, but I'm very emotionally invested in my pro teams. That's that's true, Rich. I can actually I can relate. Yeah, yeah. Um, well, guys, we we have something different to talk about today. Sports, maybe here's here's a hard segue. Sports might be one of the few places that AI is not going to dominate, you know. Except it's analytics. So we're gonna talk about technology, we're gonna talk about technology, we're gonna talk about AI. But before we get into that, we want to thank one of our partners, World Vision. Um, and today, in partnership with uh together in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and the Barna team, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. And so if that sounds like a resource that would benefit you, download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org/slash resilient26. Hey, we want to take a moment to thank one of our partners, Pushpay. Uh, this episode is brought to you by Pushpay, the leading payments and engagement provider for mission-based organizations. Visit pushpay.com to explore how their digital solutions can support your mission and your vision for the future of your ministry. Later today, I'm going to be sitting down with Jay Kim to talk about what it means to lead faithfully in a digital and AI-shaped world. And uh, you know, Jay, as people will know, is lead pastor at Westgate Church, uh, which is in San Jose, Silicon Valley in California. Um, known for his work on spiritual formation in a digital age, has authored books such as Analog Christian, Analog Church, uh Listen, Listen, Speak. He's got a new one coming out soon. And uh, so before we get to my conversation with Jay, I just wanted us to kind of reflect for a minute. You know, Barna has partnered with Pushpay on new research to explore how churches are engaging in technology and how church leaders are experiencing its impact. When we talk about tech in the church, this could be anything, just so we frame this anything from mobile church apps, uh, church management database software, which I assume most of us use, um, social media, AI tools, and more. And so here's some of the stats. One of the clearest findings is that pastors are generally optimistic about technology's role in ministry. In fact, nine out of ten pastors agree that digital ministry tools open new opportunities. It's kind of cool. Uh 31% strongly agree, 61% somewhat agree. Uh, Sharon, I just want to start with you uh, because you you you you are uh you know you're you're techie. Uh what what uh what kind of tech do you guys use uh at Bright City and um and what has been helpful for you guys, even as a you know, a a church that you know you're not a church plant anymore, but from the ground up, how did you decide what apps and tech to use?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

So I am not techie. I will say I am the opposite of techie. Like I have a MDiv, I'm a religion major, and that is all that you need to know. However, I have been really grateful for the people on our staff who are techie, especially the younger people on our staff. Like one of the things that I'm I'm definitely on the learning curve with everybody else on how to start incorporating AI. And I told you guys before we started recording that one of the things I'd wanted to talk about was the article that I sent you guys like late at night. I sent you like I mean, I guess that's true. You're in West Coast time. It was like 10:30, 11 o'clock. And I was like, I need you to talk me down off the ledge because I had read this article about how AMI was, you know, gonna bring about the end of the world, essentially. Like all these, you know, 50% of uh white-collar jobs would be lost. However, one of the takeaways from that article was also the importance of incorporating it. And so the narrat very next morning, I actually met with our production worship pastor. He is very um conversant, I guess, in AI. He incorporates it into his work regularly and is using it to start coding a lot of it's starting to write the code for a lot of the programs that we're doing. And so I've asked him to start taking the lead on this and asked him, how can you incorporate AI into what we're already doing that will free up our staff to prioritize people? And so we're kind of like having those conversations now, but I am grateful for our younger staff who are frankly like light years ahead of me in some of these things.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

How about you, Rich? So just curious, I mean we'll come back, Sharon, to your your thing there about um, you know, that AI article, doomsday. And and uh, but but just in terms of using tech apps, um, what what's that like for you guys, Rich?

SPEAKER_03 8:53

You know, it's interesting. I think on in this podcast here, we have three uh levels of engagement. Sharon, uh, you know, no tech, you know, uh, whatever, no techie. Uh, and me, it's probably like kind of like a little techie. Uh and Glenn is a lot techie. And so uh that that's my AI synthesis of just our podcast right now. Uh and so new life over the years, I mean, we've been a little behind the curve. And yet, I mean, we do stuff like whether we have our church database, which has been so helpful, and the app using that, texting to give. Like, I didn't think anyone was texting, and it turns out 12 to 15% of what we receive comes in uh uh via texting to give. And so things like that, uh super new to us. Um, but also, I mean, in recent times, and Glenn, this is, you know, because of your influence in my own life, just right using AI to just name trends. Like, what are the trends? Um, so even looking at Christmas offering, like we've been using AI to help us understand over the last five years, what are the trends we need to pay attention to in terms of just Christmas offerings or uh in terms of various ministries in our church? What are things we need to pay attention to? And so, in terms of synthesizing data uh and helping us understand uh where we're flourishing, where we are languishing, uh those things have been really helpful for us. And over the years, I think increasingly so at New Life.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

You know, it's funny, I I was not always as tech favorable or tech forward. I remember, like, this is a long time ago, but when at my previous church they were introducing a database software, you know, like put people's names in and all this stuff. I like objected. I was a young know it all. I was reading Eugene Peterson. It was like pastoral ministry needs to be personal and local. We should, we don't need an app to tell us people's names. We should, you know. And I'm so embarrassed when I think about it because honestly, I think it's wrong to put these as it's a false dichotomy to go, you we we just need to know our people, we don't need technology. I think that is what the app is for. It is to help us know our people. And I can't tell you how much I've been helped by pulling up our database app and going, all right, so-and-so's name, or what are the ages of their kids again? What are their spouses' names? You know, and and of course, there's all kinds of things that it can automate or make in systems for us with like birthdays and like remembering things and so anyway. Um Sharon, just a little bit on this AI thing. Um, you know, where where's the the the concern pastorally you know, not just in us utilizing it to it seems like pastors are favorable about utilizing it for our means. So AI as a tool, not a master, a servant, not a master. But but where your your nervousness is and is more pastoring people in a world that's gonna be reshaped or disoriented by AI. Share about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, so we are this area, there's Research Triangle Park, and so we have a lot of tech and pharmaceutical companies here. And so everything that this article, and if you're not familiar with what I'm referring to, it was on uh I found it on Twitter and it went viral, but it's it was written by a guy who works with AI. And the title the title of it, I know the title of it was something kind of ominous, like something. Something big is happening.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Yeah, something big is happening, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

And I think, you know, he compared it to COVID in terms of the scope of its impact. And so I think that's what really got so many people's attention. But then he said, you know, I I think that this is gonna lead to the loss of like 50% of white collar jobs. And because I am in an area that has so many jobs like that, like a high concentration, I kind of thought, what is this gonna look like if this many people in our area like lose their jobs? And so um that's when I I texted you guys in like a panic of like, what do what do you make of this article? What are you what do you do? And you know, Glenn, I think you you said like, oh, they're they're like ahead of it already, and um, they're already like planning for it. And and I think there's been some kind of rebuttals since then. Yeah, yeah. But I I do think like, and and I don't think it's gonna happen like two years from now. Like they're all like all these people are gonna be laid off in the next two years or something like that. But that was definitely behind my like if if we're kind of on the forefront of a major revolution in a sense, yeah, that's gonna change the face of the workforce, that's gonna create a lot of instability and financial instability. And is that something that we need to prepare for?

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Yeah, well, how are you feeling that out in New York, which you know, from a pastoral perspective on this here, in terms of kind of like how do we put boundaries or uh ensure that we're relating to this in a way that's healthy, you know, a couple of quotes come to mind. Uh, I think it was um it was Neil Postman uh in in the late 80s, early 90s, who wrote a book called Technopoly. And he had this one phrase where technology can very easily go from a tool to intruder. So that's kind of his phrase. A tool to intruder. And he's writing about this before the internet, he's writing about this before 20, you know, 24-7 news. Um and so I think uh having a healthy awareness of the impact is is number one. You know, King, Dr. King, talked about it, of course, he's talking about now technology in service of like nuclear weapons and atomic bombs and all the rest there. He talks about our theology. We have allowed our technology to outrun our theology. And um and that's kind of his exactly right there. And so, you know, and and then the last word, I mean, a number of years ago, I read a book by Arthur Bowers called Living into Focus. And but he wrote about uh focal practices and why they're why they're important. But one of the things he talked about was on we're not we're not ready for any kind of technological um use or implementation without first uh trying to weigh what might be the impact. And so it's uh it's a recognition, I think, of sin. I think it's a recognition of of the human temptation to use technology in a way that's in the service of power and greed and not love and care. Uh and so unless we're having those conversations pastorally about how this impacts, and I think generally you know, I the works of poets, the works of artists, I think serve as a helpful frame when thinking about technology. Because if technology, if we're outsourcing all creative work and we're outsourcing some of the heavy lifting that God has called us to be um uh creatives in, I think we're gonna miss out on some really important matters of how we grow as a pastoral presence in this world here. And so recognizing the very uh the the capabilities that we have, the contemplative creative possibilities, I think uh can provide a much needed correction in terms of just how technology just overtakes our lives.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah, it there's so much there, and and Jay and I uh uh you know get into a lot of these explorations because I think there are layers, you know. Sharon, you're naming an economic um uh effect, but there's also what effect does it have on our humanness? What does it have effect does it have on our you know, so so uh the empire always runs on the engine of efficiency. How can we get more with less? That's Egypt, right? More bricks, less straw. And so there's some ways in which efficiency is a good thing because we've lowered the cost, but we've created more capital. And in a society that runs on capital, that's a good thing. Theoretically, it could help people flourish. But I know uh I talked to a tech um CEO recently who said we thought it was not going to eliminate certain kinds of jobs, but now it actually is, you know, and so there is a reality there that's coming. I also want to say, you know, sometimes I get a little frustrated with the poets and and prophets rich who who who you know they were more like me, kind of like almost imagining that these things are not already here. So it it can it has helped me to think of AI as augmented intelligence rather than artificial or even aggregated intelligence, and that sort of thing. But perhaps the key here is to is to not let intelligence cross over into presence. Um, because presence is the thing only God can give and only God's image bearers can give. Um, intelligence, machines can give, presence uh is godlike, you know. Anyway, man, there's a lot here. Can't wait to get into this. And uh I'm gonna we're gonna go now to my conversation with Jay. Well, Jay Kim, my man, my uh collaborator in the West Coast Church Collective, running the streets, California, North and South. Uh how are you, bro? Good to see you, Jay.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

Yeah, it's great to see you. Yeah, West Coast, best coast, not to not to marginalize some of the audience here. Sunsets only.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Sunsets only. That's right. Um listen, man, you you have been such a helpful person to me in my journey uh at Rock Harbor. You've been such a great voice of wisdom. And uh I I view you as an incredibly thoughtful person, and you've developed frameworks and ways of thinking. And today, you know, today's conversation is all about tech. You pastor right in the heart of Silicon Valley, you're surrounded by Apple Park, Meta, Google, they're all around you. These are the people that go to your church. Um so your perspective is is needed because I think sometimes when the church talks about this, it it sometimes speaks out of ignorance. You know, we speak of that which we do not know. And so so we we create these caricatures, oh, tech is terrible, it's bad, you know, it's coming for your soul. Or we we speak uncritically and um and we go, oh, this is amazing. It's another way to spread the gospel. And so I want to kind of nuance the conversation and and maybe let's start here. There's some positives. Technology is fostering connection and opportunity. So Barna did some research recently in partnership with PushPay, which is a great uh platform for giving and for uh databasing, you know, um creating connections. And and they found out that pastors are kind of approaching technology sort of thoughtfully or or optimistically. In fact, nine out of ten church leaders agree that digital ministry tools, now that's carefully worded, digital digital ministry tools open new opportunities for ministry. And so that that's nine out of ten, that's 90%. And then nearly 80% say technology has actually helped our congregation feel more connected. I I have some ideas about why that might be the case, but what what are your thoughts on that? How do you use tech at Westgate?

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Yeah, I mean, I you know, the thing that's so encouraging to me is uh that the the key is connection, you know, that pastors are looking at these one as tools. I think that's appropriate. Um, and I think that has to become more than just the language we use. I think it has to be the framework. When I engage, whether it's AI or any other digital platform, this is a tool, you know. Uh another way to put it to get a bit more granular is um I think that digital uh there is an opportunity here in the digital age and and with increasing sort of digital technologies that are growing at a at a really rapid pace. There is an opportunity. I mean, I'm not sure that the local church has ever had as big of a front door as we have now. And thinking about technology uh uh using the imagery of a house has been helpful for us. This is something we talk about on our staff actually quite a bit and with our leaders, that um digital technologies are the greatest front door that the church has had, at least in all of my years as a pastor, and probably ever, you know, in terms of how big that front door is. And when you think about the front door of your house, it is the entry point for everybody and anybody, whether it's the UPS delivery guy or it's your child coming home from college. Regardless of the relationship, everybody enters through the front door. And I think all church leaders would probably agree, you know, the end goal, the destination, the desired destination for our people is not the front door, because we don't see our people as, you know, functional, sort of utilitarian uh people where they're delivering us a good. You know, the UPS delivery guy drops off the package at the front door, you might say hello, you grab the package, and they're on their way. But the primary metaphor of the Bible, as most people know, uh for the church is family. And so when family shows up, they still To the front door. And uh, we have a big, wide open front door now because of digital technologies, which means that more and more people have an opportunity to step into the home and become family. So, as long as pastors and church leaders are thinking about the technology as a tool or as a front door, with the desire being, you know, digital is not the destination, it's just the entryway. The destination would be the dining room table, you know, or the living room where we're actually communing together uh in embodied ways. And I'm actually quite encouraged as well, just when I talk to pastor friends, church leaders around the country and right here in Silicon Valley. Um, there seems to be uh a really grounded, responsible, wise sort of approach. And so I would just affirm that approach, see it as a front door. Um, digital technologies offer us tons of information. Pastoral responsibility responsibility then is to offer wisdom in the midst of that information and to offer invitation and not just content. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Okay, so let's let's pinch Zoom or double click or whatever, you know. And and uh let's name some of this a little bit, Jay. Um do you guys have a church app that you use?

SPEAKER_04 23:21

We do. We have an app, um, and the app has been really helpful. The app, you know, one of the one of the interesting things is it sounds a little bit backwards. One of the reasons we use an app is we have moved away from inundating people with a bunch of announcements when we gather. And that's a whole other conversation about sort of our ecclesiology and our and our philosophy and theology of what it means and what we're trying to accomplish when we gather together. And so we have pointed to we've we've put everything on the app. So um our app uh has become increasingly so uh a front door for us. Yeah. Um and yeah, people ask me this question all the time because a number of years ago I wrote a couple of books with the word analog in it. They came to wrong conclusions. People think I'm a Luddite or something, you know. And uh the truth is our church has an app, and that's been a real gift for us. Yeah, we post our sermons online, we do stream our services, that's a great conversation. We have social media, but all of it is front door stuff. I love that. All of it is, hey, man, when you're ready, we'd love to host you.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

I love the idea of the front door thing. I mean, I I I would say, you know, our comms director, amazing um person that we know, Lauren Peterson, she she thinks of it as each one, each kind of tech has a different sort of purpose. And I think it's it's important for pastors or to have your teams really ask yourself, what is this particular tech or platform best at? And and and that's that's again the precision idea of tools. Like you have a toolbox, you don't use a screwdriver like a hammer unless you're me, you know, and that doesn't work very well. You know, so so you you so in a similar way, we have decided or discovered that Instagram or social media is is the tool that is it's aimed at outsiders, people who are not yet here. It might reinforce the message, whatever, but it's not primarily a bulletin board, it's primarily a peek in the window kind of thing in in in a in a good in a good way. Look over the fence, you know, here's what's happening in the backyard. The the app is an insider function. So there's things where if you're here, this is your best way to stay connected, uh, to give uh and to grow. So, so you you know, we started with our app primarily as, hey, here's the streaming. Then a couple years ago, we're like, oh, let's add the message notes in there. So if you're on a Sunday morning, I might mention mention, hey, if you want to add the notes, here it is. Then the app features got better to where you could actually type in the notes that are preloaded and it becomes you know something you can email yourself, all that. Well, now, Jay, we're doing this year-long journey through the Bible and through the story, 50 key episodes of the Bible story. The team has created exclusive video content that's exclusive to the app. And so there's a Monday five-minute video, three to five-minute video that's a deeper study. On Wednesday, there's a devotional reflection of that same chapter that we covered on Sunday. And then Friday, there's a guided prayer. So we're immersing ourselves in one chapter of the Bible each week of the year, and those the app uh is the home for some of those resources. Now, what's amazing, we had about three or four times the number of app downloads in January than we had in any previous month. In other words, what I'm trying to say to people who are listening is you find the thing that the tool is best at, and and you're looking for the intersection of what the tool does best and what people want most or what people need most, right? And that's where you're you're you're kind of doing it. But you said something earlier about um the pastoral stuff, the formation alongside it. Jay, what I've loved about you and your team and the way you lead is formation is is front and center for you guys. And you have a Westgate kind of rule of life, and I've seen that even on your website and your app, you're reminding people of these, let's call them analog rhythms that are embedded in the tech. Do you want to share some of that and what led to that decision?

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is is about um, you know, as I'm listening to you talk about the way Rock Harper uses the app and the thoughtfulness behind what each platform is sort of designed to do. One of the things that comes to mind for me, it's this is not language that's original to us, but it's language we use uh internally on our team. Um what we say all the time is not just with technology, but with almost everything we do, we want to hold a for you posture toward our congregation in our city, not a from you. And I think, especially with social media, um, if we are not intentional, um, many social media platforms they devolve and default to becoming a sort of from you type of mechanism. Basically, what we communicate through Instagram or through an app or whatever it might be is essentially we're just telling you through this mechanism what we need from you. We need you to show up to this thing or to go to that or to go to this. And we want people to show up and we want people, but the way we communicate it is no, no, no, this is for you. We want to offer to you a gift that we think will help you more and more become the person God has asked you to become. So it's not surprising to me that there's been an increase in the downloads of the Rock Arbor app because you are offering things to your people that feels very directly, oh, this is for me. This is going to enrich my life in God. And the reason I share that is because, yes, we we try to like the phrase we use all the time is we believe digital informs and analog transforms. So come on, bro. The way you can the way you can think about that is, you know, I can sit at home and watch all of the YouTube videos I could possibly find about CrossFit. And I can have all the information on how to do all of the CrossFit exercises. But for my body to actually change, for my body to transform, I am going to have to participate in a physical, embodied, uh, place-based, people-oriented sort of way. And so, yeah, we have these practices, a sort of communal rule of life that is embodied. They're embodied, they're place-based, they are people-oriented, they're communal. So it's gathering, it's all the stuff that all of us do and point our people to. And you know, it's nothing new. It's gathering together, it's centering ourselves around the word of God, daily rhythms of prayer, shared meals, community, silence, confession, all those sorts of things, um, participation in a number of different ways. But we have found, as you have as well, that digital tools and technology, it um it allows us to continue to offer um things that are for our people beyond just the 75, 80, sometimes 90 minutes we're together on a Sunday. And as long as we are aware that the tool is a mechanism for offering to people what what we what we believe is for them, so that they might, again, more deep enliven and deepen their life with God, then we'll use the tool all day long, you know, because the tool is simply an invitation for people to live again in more embodied, place-based, people-oriented ways. So, again, it comes back to the same sort of concept. Putting the tool in its rightful place allows the tool to be the thing that it should be and protects us from allowing the tool to sort of use us, you know, and form us in ways that we don't want to be formed.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

I want to pause our conversation for a moment and just say a special thank you to our partners at World Vision. You know, World Vision has spent decades empowering the most vulnerable children all around the world. And now, in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10x10, and our friends here at Barna, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teenagers in your care. Parenting the open generation offers nine practical principles to help you navigate the real challenges that today's teens are facing and to support their faith formation in meaningful and grounded ways. So download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Again, that's worldvision.org backslash resilient26. We've also linked it in today's show notes. I wanted to take a second to thank one of our incredible sponsors, Pushpay. For 15 years, Pushpay has been developing technology purpose-built for the church, and they're proud to be the pace setter for the latest technology that fits the unique needs of today's ministries. As the landscape of both technology and ministry continues to evolve, Pushpay continues to innovate like their new AI Policy Generator, a first of its kind tool that guides leaders through the process of creating custom AI guidelines to direct your staff and volunteers on best practices and accepted AI use cases. You can find the AI Policy Generator along with all of Pushpay's latest innovations at pushpay.com. And now let's get back to our conversation. I mean, two just gold insights, you know, the is this do we want something from you or is this for you? And I'm thinking about this, you know, some more data here is six out of ten church leaders say their church uses five or more digital tools. Some of the top being, of course, social media, online giving, live stream, church management software, all that. The question is not just adoption, you know, like that that you're using tech. Ooh, good job. You know, the goal is how, you know, and I thought I love what you're saying. Use it so that we're not just asking for something from people, but we're giving something that we have something for people. But then the other one that um the digit the digital can inform, but the analog transforms. You know, you you you race through some of those rhythms and rule of life stuff, but I think I would really love to hear you unpack that just um uh you know in detail here, Jay, of like this is the rhythms that we invite our whole church to, and then this is how the app kind of supports that or opens the door, if you will, for them to enter into that.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

Yeah, we I mean, none of it is rocket science, it's stuff that's similar to you know what you're doing at Rock Harbor. Um, I'll just give one or two sort of simple examples. So uh praying through the the daily examine or the ignition examine is a part of our sort of communal rule. We invite our entire church family to do it. Uh, we created a sort of family examine, you know, that parents could do with kids, because obviously it's a different experience when you've got young children. So we wanted to make that accessible. And so all of that stuff goes on our app. We point people to it. Um, and it's it's an accessible tool that's sort of right there. There are all sorts of mechanisms that our team, you know, people way smarter than me have where people can opt in or out, depending on sort of what works best for them. They can opt in or out to having sort of um automated prompts that remind them on a daily basis, like, hey, spend time with the Lord uh in the exam, and here are the movements. Um so things like that have been really helpful for us, where we give people the optionality because again, we're trying to offer something for them. We're not saying sort of blanket statement, this is what we need from you, the church. You know, and instead, we're saying all of us, we we live our lives at a particular pace with a particular rhythm. And so uh we we want this to work for you. Um, and at the same time, we try to guard against, you know, sort of making things that are over-customizable. We don't want to be the Chipotle sort of pick and choose what you want. It is a communal rule because we as a church family, just our best sort of sense right now in this season is that God, by his spirit, is pointing all of us collectively in this particular direction. So we want it to work for you. It is for you, but we are also inviting you, if you would find it helpful, to join us on this sort of singular journey that we're going on together as a church. And we have found that um digital tools are really helpful along those lines. So, uh, like you know, things you said about these sort of short little video prompts, those are things that we do as well, whether it's a quick devotional or just a reminder prompt. Hey, today as you go about your day, um, as a church family, can we consider this sort of reality as we deepen and enrich our life with God? So um, and then we do all the standard stuff. I mean, you know, digital technologies do have a way, uh, if they're leveraged correctly, to make participation far more accessible. So if we believe, for example, that financial participation, you know, and tithes and offering or worship giving or whatever your church might call it, is a formational reality that God forms us. For example, here where I live and where you live, Glenn, you know, um, here for me here in Silicon Valley, I would say money and wealth is one of the primary idols here. And it's true in in much of the developed world, but it's certainly uniquely true in Silicon Valley. So, you know, financial participation and worship giving in ways that God is calling each of us. It's not just about funding ministry, it's not just about making budget. We really think that it is a form, it's a formational tool that uh forms us into the people God's called us to be. And so digital technology has been a really helpful tool to make participation far more accessible. Um, but having that sort of thoughtfulness behind it, and instead of just saying, like, let's just get more people to give more money and just pump this out there, you know. Yeah, that sort of approach I think really matters.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Well, you you know, a couple things that you you're just it's so brilliant, Jay, because you're resisting the urge to functionalize this. And I think tech left unchecked without a human guide will squeeze everything towards funk functionalizing. What's the, you know, how do we optimize? How do we, you know, but the other thing that that tech left unchecked can do is it can individualize. And so I I know we learned this from you is how to thread the preaching with the um discipleship opportunities with the individual stuff, and how to thread it together so that it all feels like, or it not just feels like, is a communal journey, you know. So it was for you guys a community rule of life, and for us, this particular year, this year-long journey through the Bible, those are ways to get strategic about tech, not just pragmatic about tech. And that that's what I think, pastors, you know, you don't have to be a tech expert, but what you can bring to the conversation with your team is come up with a strategy and a theology so that when the team is saying, let's create this content and let's utilize this platform and let's do this, you know, you can go, uh-huh, and here's why, and here's what the tell us is at the end, the end goal. And so the end goal becomes communal, it becomes you know, spiritual, uh, and and not just functional, which again, it it's so easy to just uh slide into kind of this functional tech.

SPEAKER_04 39:14

Yeah. Yeah, I I think I mean what you're saying there, Glenn, is so true. And I think church leaders and pastors, it behooves us to give it much of our attention. Uh I've discovered because the companies that make these technologies, like all for-profit companies, they have a particular bottom line. And that bottom line is driven primarily by attention, by human attention. We live in what has been commonly called now the attention economy. So Tristan Harris, the Center for Humane Design, he's the first person I heard say this. Basically, he says, when you go to your app store and you download an app, whether it is Instagram or X or your church app, it's free. Almost always it's free. And then Tristan Harris is the one who said, nothing's free. It's if it's free to you, you are the product. You are the product, that's right. You are the product. That's right. And by you, he means specifically it's our attention. And I think church leaders and churches and pastors, we have a real opportunity here to sort of, you know, transcend the economic structure of digital technology. And again, leverage these tools to be a gift for our people. And one of the things that's been helpful for us is um as a team, we've talked about this um technologies, digital technologies are by design um created to grow uh at speed and at scale. So um pastoring is slow and it's very personal, it's inefficient. And so one of the things we say is like, yeah, the tool left left to itself will just push us towards speed and scale. What we're looking for as church leaders is symmetry. And what that means is we are trying to align everything we do to the very real lived lives of our people. Rather than say, this is again, it goes back to the for you or from you thing. Rather than saying, here's where we're going, and we're going there fast, and we're gonna get real big real fast. So just get on the bus. Rather than doing that, we're asking questions: how do we use these tools to become symmetrical, um aligned to the real lives of our people? You know, so before we jumped on this call, you know, we were talking about some conversations I'm having with people who are in tech right here in our church. And um we're trying to slow down for them, you know, because their life is all about speed and scale. We're trying to slow down, but there's ways to use the tools to our advantage to do that. But I think, again, it just requires real thoughtfulness.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Let's talk about AI. Uh, you know, according to this research that Brian has done, AI adoption in church, it's emerging. And this is the kind of thing that every day there's something new. I mean, I I I I've I've talked to a few um folks in tech, and you talked to 10 times more, I'm sure, who have said, yeah, a year ago we thought it wasn't going to replace these kinds of jobs, now it is replacing these kinds of jobs. So there's an economic reality, there's a disruption for sure. Um, but one in three churches say they're using AI in some part of its ministry or operations. Um AI, if AI is aggregated intelligence, I mean, some of the ways we've used that here is we on a private um version of it, paid and private version of it, we have uploaded, you know, our spreadsheets from the last three years and go ahead and track some trends, um, spike seasons, dip seasons, year over year stuff. You know, so it's it's aggregated intelligence helpful there. But uh the you know, where where are you seeing AI genuinely as helpful to church leaders and even to congregants?

SPEAKER_04 43:08

Yeah, I mean, AI is you know, conversations around AI, it is you know front and center for so many of us. Um The first thing I'll say is I think we're really early, and that means that we should um speak uh humbly and and cautiously.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Would you say we need to listen, listen, speak like your book doing, like your book tells us?

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Yeah. Oh man, I forgot I wrote that book, actually. Um I just yeah, I think we're really early. And uh no matter what the pundits say, the truth is I don't think anyone really knows for sure where all of this is headed. Um what is true is that we seem to be headed wherever we're headed with this technology much faster. Faster than previous technologies. So I think that's where the anxiety comes from. It feels so uncertain, but it feels also like every single day there's a new sort of leap that AI makes. And all of that is true. So, you know, I think non-anxious presence, offering non-anxious presence really matters a great deal right now. So for pastors and church leaders, it matters a great deal that we take a deep breath and remind ourselves of the timeless, sort of universal, historic, global, unfolding story of God through the local church. And there is no technology that's going to usurp that or upend that. So to find our confidence there and offer that confidence and comfort as a gift to our people, I think is going to really matter. Because our people are asking questions like, is my job going to go away? You know, am I still going to be will there be teachers in the future? Will there be whatever? Um, but at the same time, yeah, I mean, we've we've begun leveraging AI in similar ways where um we ask it to assist in synthesizing and collating information, yes, um, to organize and uh, you know, but but we we are really clear as a team, we will never ask artificial intelligence to give us meaning to help us really sort of make pastoral sense of the information. So we're leveraging it, yeah, as a way to synthesize and collate and organize information, but not breathe meaning or purpose or pastoral insight into the information. That's a that's a human experience that I think needs to involve the Spirit of God. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

I I love that because even for preachers, you know, AI, there are some great Bible study softwares now that aren't aren't using AI to scan the web, but using AI to scan your digital library, which is a cool feature. And and and there's advanced versions of research type AI that I've used where I go, hey, here are the scholars I want you to pull from any of their work that's on web journal articles, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Footnote it for me, and then, you know, it can aggregate research. But to write a sermon requires the work of prayer, discernment about what is a word from God that my our church needs right now. What is a word from God for our people in this season? And that's what you're describing as meaning work versus you know, research work or aggregating work, which is really amazing. Jay, you you had a combo with Andy Crouch about this on a practicing the way thing, and I thought you and Andy really got to this place where you talked about the gift of human presence. And I may, I may, may butcher this, but he you guys talked about fear, guilt, and shame as like primal human needs. And when I think about this, Jay, I think it's one thing to have uh, you know, auxiliary intelligence or aggregate intelligence, but the difference between intelligence and presence, and you just said this, non-anxious presence, you know, presence to someone who's afraid, presence says, I am with you. To someone who's guilty, presence says I forgive you. To someone who's ashamed, presence says you belong here. Um you're working on a book, you're releasing a book called The Pace of Peace. Like, what's the link here between presence and peace in a world that is being disrupted and disoriented by AI and by tech?

SPEAKER_04 47:46

Yeah. Yeah, it's a wonderful question. Um, and it's a question I'm asking all the time. You know, I think there's a paradox. This is this is my sort of working language around it. There's probably a better way to put it, but I've been I've been thinking a lot very recently, actually, about the paradox of personhood. And uh I just read a um an article recently that was sort of um expanding on and making sense of some research done at Yale where uh and the research was done a number of years ago, but it was basically about all of these strange paradoxes in human experience. So um the best way to describe it would be like uh when we talk about people crying tears of joy, or we think about nervous laughter, or uh when I see my newborn niece, who I will see tomorrow, she's got these giant cheeks that are just flowing from her face, and I love her so much. I pinch her cheeks, which pinching functionally is an expression of pain. You know, one could argue I am hurting her, but um, but I'm not, you know, but uh but I am. I'm pinching her cheeks. What is that? Why do we cry tears of joy? Why do we laugh when we're nervous? Why do we pinch cheeks because we love them so much? We cause pain. These are like like real embodied examples of of the paradox of personhood, you know? Um, why does Sarah laugh when the promise she's been waiting for is finally fulfilled, at least verbally, you're gonna have a child. And she she laughs incredulously, you know, because she can't believe it's like there's so much there. And what's interesting about AI, again, it is so good at giving us the thing, um the thing that we think we need. And uh, you know, I have this data, I need it collated, I need it synthesized, I need it organized, boom, so quick, quicker than a human being could do. Um, another thing about AI is it can never offer you silence. So, as an example, like the machinery is designed, it cannot just be silent with you. If it is silent, it doesn't, it's it's not functioning. You know, it functions with words, and like it is a large language model. It's based on language and input and output and that exchange. But all of us know sometimes, again, the paradox of personhood. Sometimes when we're in those moments, and and for church leaders and pastors, we know sometimes we're in these moments where congregants come into our office and they are in such a deep, dark valley. And we sense in our spirit and in our bodies the thing this person needs right now is not my explanation or my theology or uh an answer. What they need is my quiet, gentle, loving presence, and that's the paradox of personhood. Yeah, and there is no machine, there is no technology ever, like that there will never be a technology that will be able to offer us that. And to me, that is a source of great hope, great comfort, and great confidence. And I think that's true not just for pastors or for or for church leaders, it's true for all of us. So, whatever line of work we are in, can we ask that question? Is there a slice of this work that is um that only a human being could do, that only a human could ever do, you know? And uh I don't have the answer to that question, but I think asking that question is a step forward.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

That's so good. The paradox of personhood is the unpredictability of presence. That that's what you're that's what you're saying, because LLMs are built on predictability and pattern recognition. Yes, and the paradox of personhood is the unpredictability of presence. Uh that's amazing, man. And you know, on a spiritual level, theological level, it's the presence of God, too. Like that, like God surprises us. Sometimes he surprises us with miracles, sometimes he surprises us by his silence, sometimes he surprises us by speaking, you know. So I I just think it'd be appropriate here, Jay. We don't always do this, but I'd love for you to just to pray for our listeners right now, for wisdom, for peace, you know, for the pace of peace, uh as we navigate uh these difficult, changing, you know, rapidly evolving kind of uh uh cultural moments.

SPEAKER_04 52:47

Yeah, yeah, would be an honor to pray. Father, son, Holy Spirit. Even now, through this digital medium, we know that in your timeless transcendence, you are here with us, as near as our very next breath. And so we pray that you in your love would grant us peace, and that you would grant us relief from our anxiety, that you would give us courage for our fear, that you would give us confidence and comfort in the face of all that feel so uncertain in our personal lives, in our pastoral and ministry lives, and for our churches and our organizations, for the people that you've called us to serve. We pray that you would give us wisdom to know the directions you would and would not have us go, and that you would give us enough faith, enough trust that despite what culture says, that we would move at your pace and that we would go uh in your direction. And as we do, that we would find deep meaning and joy knowing that you are leading the way and that you are the author of our stories and the story of the world, and we don't need to live with the burden of writing that story. We can trust you to write it and um find our place in that story. So we thank you and um we love you. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

Amen. Thank you so much, Jay. Well, wow, so many directions to keep taking that. But thank you for joining us on the Brazilian Pastor Podcast. If this conversation encouraged you, uh share it with a fellow pastor or leader. Uh you can always find more Barna research and resources at Barna.com. Once again, thank you to World Vision, one of our key partners here. Um, they, together with Daniel Strickland, 10 by 10, and the Barna team, created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of kids and teens in your care. So download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Once again, this episode is brought to you by Pushpay, the leading payments and engagement provider for mission-based organizations. Visit pushpay.com to explore how their digital solutions can support your mission and your vision for the future of your ministry. Thanks for watching and listening to the Resilient Pastor Podcast. We'll see you next time.