74 | Esau McCaulley on Preaching Truth with Biblical Integrity

In this episode, Sharon Miller sits down with Esau McCaulley to explore what it means for pastors to preach truth with biblical integrity while navigating cultural tension. Drawing from Scripture, pastoral ministry, and Barna’s research, they discuss why pastors must resist being shaped by cultural narratives and instead help their people interpret reality through the lens of Scripture. Esau offers wisdom on preaching with courage, theological depth, and love for the congregation God has entrusted to you. This conversation equips pastors to lead faithfully when truth requires both conviction and care. 

• Download Parenting the Open Generation at worldvision.org/resilient26. 
• Watch this episode on Barna’s YouTube Channel.
• View all Resilient Pastor podcast episodes on our podcast page.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

All right, everybody, welcome. Here we are, another episode of the Barna Resilient Pastor Podcast, where we help pastors lead with wisdom, hope, and courage in a changing world. I am Glenn Packham, and this podcast is part of Barna's mission to encourage and equip pastors to be resilient spiritually, emotionally, and in their leadership. Together we'll explore new research and real conversations to help you understand the times and know what to do. If you're not already doing so, go to Barna.com, sign up for the free Barna email to access the latest Barna articles, resources, special discount offers, and more. Guys, you know, travel's picking up a little bit. I know you guys have been doing some ministry stuff on planes and whatnot. Rich, you you have a funny plane story. Uh what happened?

SPEAKER_04 0:59

What happened to you? Yeah, you know, I'm interested if you guys have any interesting travel stories. I was on a flight and I'm minding my own business. Uh just it was a seat in the middle, a guy on the phone. Paint the picture. You're putting your headphones on. Are you like I usually have at least one AirPod in? Here's why. Because I want to extend the life of the AirPod. And so I have one in one left ear, and then when that's out, I put in the other one there. And so that just that just gives me now uh six hours of AirPod time. I'm I'm here to equip the Saints here. Uh and so uh so I'm sitting there with my right airpod in, and I notice this one guy, he keeps looking over at me, and so I look over, and it's a gentleman I would discover from the Democratic Republic of Congo who speaks French. And so he goes, he just he does not speak like a lick of English, and he just goes, Wi-Fi, Wi-Fi. And so I'm like, Oh, you want to go on Wi-Fi? And he just like hands me his phone, like, can you get me on the Wi-Fi? And uh he was talking about leadership. Uh, he was just like decisive and clear. And I'm just like, and so I took out my my uh my chat GPT. I this is the first time I've ever used it for that. I'm wondering if you guys have any stories like this. And we had a full-on conversation in French and in English, uh, as I kept translating, like giving him instructions on how to set up an account uh to on Delta to get on the Wi-Fi. And we went back and forth. He wanted to hug me at the end. I mean, it was just like man, I and I just, you know, I didn't, I just said mercy and all the stuff that I was making up words uh as I was getting here. But it was just delightful. And at first I was just bothered by it. I was just like, he just threw his phone like in in my hand and just said, can you get to work here? But do you guys have any interesting travel stories uh or maybe chat GPT stories or AI, whatever you guys are using here? But uh I just found wow, creativity was flowing. Uh 30,000 feet in the air as I was helping this man uh just get on Wi-Fi. Nothing like that for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 3:09

I I don't have any chat GPT stories. I mean, I have a lot of crazy plane stories. Do you want to have I shared my like worst plane story with you? Tell us now, tell us I want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

You got you got it.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Oh, this is horrible, guys. Like we Ike and I were traumatized by this. So I can't believe I haven't told you all this story. We were on the tarmac in DFW. This was about 15 years ago now, and we were taxiing to the runway when our flight attendant gets on the intercom and starts saying that we need to turn the plane around and that if this plane takes off, that it is going to crash.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

That's bad news.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

And everyone's starting to panic.

SPEAKER_04 3:56

Just like that, Sherry. But this is gonna crash? That's a response.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

She says, we cannot fly. If we take off, this plane is going to crash. At one point, the plane doesn't stop. So she says, Okay, you know, if we take off, like it's not my fault. Like I tried to warn you this plane is going to crash. And so at this point, we think this plane is being hijacked. And we keep going to the runway. She keeps, you know, trying to communicate to the pilot. What? And so yeah, so I'm thinking we're being hijacked. So I get on my phone, I call 911.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Oh my.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

And which I've also never done on a plane. And I talk to the 911 operator, and they said, You're not the only one who's called. We are in communication with the air traffic control uh tower. And so we've got it covered. So eventually the plane turns around. We go back to the airport. Come to find out this flight attendant was having a psychotic break. She was using a closed circuit. And so the reason the pilot wasn't turning around is he couldn't hear anything that she was saying. So that's why he just kept on, you know, living his life. The other flight attendants were running up there trying to wrestle it away from her. She punched one of them. They had to pin her down. And when we got back to the gate, there the FBI was there, TSA, and the police were all there. And I remember watching them carry her off the plane. I saw her shoe go flying through the air. And when we we were flying to Chicago, when we landed in Chicago, uh, eventually, we were on the news. Like Diane Sawyer talked about it because it was so bananas. And so for years after that, Ike and I had a really hard time flying. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

I mean, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

I mean, I do have a question, Sharon. Yeah, did you get your snacks uh during the trip? That's what I want to know. So I would be really mad if I didn't get my snacks.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

What they did though, they so they after all this happened, they got rid of the whole flight crew. They were like, we're just starting over, we're starting fresh.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

And they said, you have the option to get off the plane as well, but we know like you need to go to Chicago. And so you're welcome to stay. And so we just realized we've got to get to Chicago. So they bring in this flight attendant who is like this sweet little old lady. She's like a grandma, she's like Mrs.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

That's who you want, though. That's who you want. It's exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

And she gets on and she's she says, I am so glad to be here with you. I I was just sitting at doing nothing. And then they called me, and I got to leave home and come be with you.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

See, it's a privilege for her. Yeah. Yeah. That's a resilient flight attendant.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

You're exactly what fighting with me holding my hand.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

I don't even know how to segue after this, you guys. These are the two most unexpected.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

You weren't ready.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

I was not ready. I don't have a story, but I we do have a sponsor to thank, and that is World Vision. Together in partnership with Danielle Strickland, listen, 10x10 and the Barnett Sea. They have created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders, possibly flight attendants too, to guide the spiritual lives of kids and teens in your care. Download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

So in just a moment, we are going to hear from my conversation with Esau McCauley. I don't know if you guys know this. I have been going on his podcast lately. And that's part of the reason why I wanted him to come on our podcast is Esau, he's been on our podcast before, but honestly, every time I go on his podcast, he's so gifted at analyzing culture from a Christian perspective. And he's always asking the question, how do we think about this as Christians? And I've continually been blessed by my conversations with Esau. I've just been really enriched by him. And so I'm grateful to have him back on the podcast. But before we get into that conversation, I wanted to take a little bit of time to talk about some of what I'll discuss with Esau, because there are a lot of areas right now where pastors are feeling the weight of leadership, not just in what they do, but in how they help people make sense of the world. Questions around identity, race, division, and discipleship are not abstract, but they're shaping how people see God, themselves, and each other. And Barna's research reflects that. Over half of pastors say that addressing complex issues with biblical integrity is one of the biggest challenges facing the church today, which is really interesting to me. Barna's research reflects that over half of pastors, so 58%, say that addressing complex issues with biblical integrity is a major concern facing the Christian church in the US today. So the question I want to pose to you is, you know, how do we help our people interpret these complex realities through scripture rather than not just react to them? Like what does it look like to maintain scriptural integrity while also speaking meaningfully into cultural realities? And I think even just that question of biblical integrity is really, I almost wish that's one of those stats. I wish I could sit down and ask kind of what did what do they mean by that? But Rich, do you want to kick us off with some thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 10:12

You know, we are in a moment in history because of 24-7 news cycles and because of social media where the pastor is no longer just someone who's feeding people the word of God that has to be a cultural analyst. And in many respects, that's unfair. It's unfair for pastors to have to have all the answers about all the stuff and speak uh with nuance and with insight. And so I just want to name, first of all, um, for pastors that don't feel equipped, uh, you know, uh when you look at what's happening in the Middle East uh with Iran, you know, uh the the strait of, you know, what with you know that that part of the world where oil is being delivered and that I I just learned about that for that whole thing recently. I'm like, how in the world am I going to now speak to all of the nuances and complexities of that part when I just learned about it? And so I just think past, let's take a step back for a moment here. And pastoral prayers uh can go a long way as you shepherd your community. You don't have to know all of the details. Uh and so can we, with with love and with compassion and with care for the issues of our world, uh, bring people to God in prayer? And so I just want to say that's that's a beautiful pastoral ministry. Not everyone is called with the same level of intensity uh to uh do what we're talking about here. At the same time, for those who feel called or burdened to do this, um I generally think there's there's three or four kind of pronged approach that I tend to think of. Number one, um, as we're thinking about a specific issue, um where do we find scripture speaking to something along these lines? Uh and so from their scripture point there, then the question I'm asking is, okay, is there a through line? Is there is there something that a redemptive arc? Is there a trajectory in scripture that uh this particular scripture is thematically uh being stitched together throughout throughout Genesis to Revelation? And from that point on, after I'm gathering, just what is the collective wisdom of the scriptures as it relates to this particular theme, then I'm asking myself, okay, uh what's the cultural matter before us? And then what is the humble bridging of this particular matter? And so for those who on in many respects, I and I don't want to sound, it sounds like a seminary 101. Um, we have to read the Bible beyond just proof texting. And if we can just go beyond plucking out isolated verses and saying we need to do this because the Bible says this, as opposed to, okay, we can start there, but is there a larger thematic arc that could help us make more sense that the words that we're speaking are far more weighty? And then let's beat to this uh with great humility, this particular uh cultural matter. And I can circle back in terms of you know some of the things I think about when I think about statements, but Glenn, how would you think about some of just at least scripturally and addressing some of those issues?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

No, you do this so well, Rich, and we we've had a few episodes or one episode this uh season, I think, on cultural issues, and you outline I think you talked about what goes into making statements, and you you have such a well thought-through sort of matrix on this, um, Rich. The only thing I would affirm or or maybe say uh add slightly to is I do think our role is much more about teaching people how to read the Bible and how to pray, as opposed to teaching people what the Bible says about this issue. And I think underlying that approach to the Bible uh is a overly sort of functionalizing the Bible. We're making the Bible serve our political agendas as opposed to coming to God on his own terms. So rather than saying, I want to know what the Bible really says about immigration, yeah, you know what? No. I want you to know God as you read the Bible. That's the goal. You don't read the Bible so you could figure out a what the Bible says about immigration or what the Bible says about war or what the Bible says about, you know. No, that that's not it. You need to read the Bible first so that you can know God and then how what it means to be his people. Now, as it turns out, it will give you some something to say about immigration, and it will give you something to say about um about war. But it's fascinating because you should not try to make the Bible subservient to your political agendas or or even your expediencies of the news of the day. But rather it should just it should work at a much deeper level than that. I was listening today to a podcast from the UK with the historian Tom Holland and a couple of Church of England bishops and then a secular journalist who was moderating it, and and he described this sort of Paddington view of um immigration, and he was saying instead of the richness of um a full theological resource that the church could offer the government about how to think about immigration, we've settled for a Paddington kind of uh level argument, which he's like, on the one hand, the Paddington view, i.e., comes from the Good Samaritan, take care of a stranger who's among you, even if that stranger is a person that represents a people group that you're at odds with, you should care for them. That's the whole message of Paddington Bear, right? But he's like, but we've done it in this sort of niceness kind of way. And so we go, oh, so even when people quote the Bible and they go, Oh, treat the stranger, it's like, oh, just be kind. And you're like, man, you've just defanged the wildness of scripture because it does say that, and it also says some other pieces. And if you come to the Bible on its own terms, you'll actually wrestle with God and you'll wrestle more deeply over these questions as opposed to thin slicing, cherry-picking, uh, proof texting your way around the Bible. You you're you're just doing violence to the word of God.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah. You know, one book that I think addressed this really well was The Bible and the Ballot, I think is what it's called, Caitlin Chess's book. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

And I think that should be like mandatory hermeneutics class reading because she goes through kind of American history and looks at the ways that scripture has been trotted out to and twisted and contorted to serve, you know, political ends. And it was really, it's very well done and really eye-opening. And it's not just a historical account. I found it to be very personally convicting.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

But this conversation reminded me too just this week, I was thinking about the ways that we do that, that we take, I think when it talks about biblical integrity, what I think they're probably getting at is we aren't reading the Bible with integrity. We're we're trying to make it serve some agenda. And I was thinking just this week about on the one hand, we don't really, we don't talk about kind of like hot topics, but I'm gonna do it right now. So get ready.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

So we had in the last week or two, we had Pete Heggseth saying that, you know, bombing Iran, this is essentially like in the name of God, implying that this is a holy war. And so we're taking God's name and we're attaching it to this war over here. Well, that same week, I was on Facebook and I'm part of a local parenting group where someone had asked, I'm looking for a progressive church that meets like all checks all these boxes. That's like a very common request. Like, I want a progressive church, which I think is even just like not one that's like faithful to Jesus, but it's gotta like fit with my you know ideology. And one of the churches that someone submitted, I clicked on it and I looked, and it was as if you could take every every part of the democratic, you know, platform, every every topic, every agenda was represented on this church's website in their worship space. And you have here these two different pictures of of God and Jesus, where what we're really not interested in the actual Jesus. We're interested in taking Jesus and taking scripture and figuring out how can I make this serve the agenda that I have already determined. And so I'm my sense is that that's the alarm that a lot of pastors are feeling is noticing scripture being used in this way. And so I think we have to be really honest, just even with ourselves, our own temptation to do that, to sort of ignore the parts of scripture that are really uncomfortable for us and to, you know, dig in on those parts that we're really passionate about and to recognize that if we aren't doing that hard work, if we aren't preaching the things that confront us, then how can we possibly expect our people to be doing that as well? And so making sure that we are not preaching in a way that fits very comfortably with one side or the other, but that transcends and confronts both. Do y'all have anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_04 19:47

Uh I would that's beautifully said, Sharon. And the only thing I would add briefly is anyone who's seeking to follow Jesus, when you read the the gospels, uh, you find yourself consistently disrupted, decentered, uh disillusioned, uh questioning. The follow Jesus is not neat and packaged. Uh and if if fo if folks are just wanting a spiritual community, a church that's just going to say, can you just affirm everything that I believe? And that's when I know it's the right church for me here. Um I think we are um we are centering uh something else as opposed to the the the wild, the often wild and unpredictable Jesus that we find uh in the gospels. And so let's have Jesus be the interpretive lens, let's have Jesus be the one who which we're trying to understand the entire corpus of scripture together. And I think that takes so much work and patience, uh, and a can you know a consistent censoring of the cross. And yet that's what we're called to do as pastors.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yep. Yep, and and teaching them how to pray. When I say that uh in addition to this, it's it's how to wrestle this out with God in your in your conviction. And you might land. You know, I I think two Christians can land at two different places on current events, not because they have different theology, sometimes it's because they have different analysis of the situation. You know, so you you you had this this horrible tweet that went out from the president on Easter Sunday morning, wipe out a whole civilization. And lots of faith leaders can condemned that. Uh but what they condemned was the the decorum, the the the vulgarity, you know, maybe the severity of it. And then other people go, no, no, no, no, this just is just gamesmanship. He he's he's he's speaking a language they can understand, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So if your situational analysis says, oh, this is this is he doesn't really mean it, you know, then your your theology doesn't require you to rebuke it. But if you go, it doesn't matter. Words matter words matter to God, and words matter because they shape the world that The way that we see the world. It doesn't matter if this is th political theater or not, words should not be used that way, you know, by a person who represents a country. So then you go, well, then my theology requires me to disagree, to, to confront that, to rebuke that. So I think sometimes, you know, one, we've we've said, come to the Bible on its own terms, teach people how to pray. But but thirdly, part of the pastoral work is to go, how are you seeing this? How are you making sense? And this is where I find it actually deeply discouraging, because there can be almost no agreement with this. You know, some if some people view um you know this as the rise of the Third Reich, and this is like, oh, this is Hitler, and ICE agents are the same thing as the uh uh Gestapo or whatever. The Gestapo, yeah, you go, well, you're you're right. If that really is how you see it, then we should be up in arms about this. Other people go, no, no, it's not quite like that. So so we we are fundamentally off in how we're perceiving and interpreting what's going on. So that is where some of the breakdown um happens. And and we want to use the Bible to kind of say, well, this is why you're you're seeing this. And you go, actually, your social location is affecting how you're perceiving and interpreting this. Um your inputs that you're taking in are shaping how you're perceiving and interpreting this. So I I I use the analogy here of a frame and a lens, like the glasses that I'm wearing, you know. So your lens is your social location, your own perception, but your frame holds it together. That that can be the voices, your worldview, um, the people that you surround yourself with. And so I I think it's very important to name all of those things in addition to and and even to say that you name those when you come to the Bible with those same lenses and frames, you know. And so you you might notice all the verses about war because you're wired that way. You go, well, did you miss what happens to war when Jesus comes on the scene? You know, did you miss that Jesus is the Messiah who dies for his enemies? And and so anyway, I I think there's so much work to be done here. It can't just be put down to biblical interpretation, it has to be put down to really helping people reflect on their lens and their frame.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Yeah. Yeah, I I personally have also been helped by remembering that I don't have to discern this alone, that I have brothers and sisters who are navigating these same stormy waters. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so grateful for you guys that I I trust, I know that you are not beholden to a particular partisan allegiance. And Esau is actually one of those voices for me as well, which is why I'm so grateful to have him on. And there's so much more that we could have said that we could have talked about this for another hour, I think. But guys, thanks for sharing that perspective. And now I am actually gonna turn it over to my conversation with Esau McAuley. All right, guys. I am so excited to welcome my friend Esau McAuley. Now, before I get into my conversation with him, I am going to read you his very lengthy bio. And then after I read this, after I read this, I'm gonna tell a story about the first time I went on Esau's podcast that this bio sets it up really well. Okay, so Esau Macaulay, PhD, is the founding pastor of All Saints Anglican Church in Naperville, Illinois. He is also an author and the Jonathan Blanchard Associate Professor of New Testament and Public Theology at Wheaton College. His writing and speaking focus on New Testament exegesis, African American biblical interpretation, and public theology. He has authored numerous books, including Reading While Black, African American Biblical Interpretation as an exercise in hope, which won numerous awards, including Christianity Today's Book of the Year. Esau also served as the editor of New Testament in Color, a multi-ethnic commentary on the New Testament. Okay. So clearly, Esau's very impressive. And so, because of this, when I first went on your podcast, friends, he has his own podcast that I occasionally have the privilege of guest hosting. I even have my own segment now called It's Miller Time. I have a hat that I wear and everything. But because of this very impressive bio, when I first joined your podcast, I expected you to be a very serious person. And pretty, pretty quickly into the podcast, when you and Mike, y'all rib each other a lot. It's just constant like throwing back and forth. And so pretty quickly, I was like, wait a second. Like, can I make fun of them?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Are they normal people? Yeah, we're normal people.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Can I be? Can I like throw in here? Like, can I joke around? And so I have really enjoyed being on your podcast because you guys, you talk about really serious stuff, but you guys are also hysterical. And so I say that to introduce you to say, like, don't be intimidated by Esau's really intimidating bio because he is, as he describes me earlier, just a man of the people. Is there anything that you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 27:45

I never thought, I mean, I've only ever been me, so I never thought of myself as an overly serious person. Um, so I'm I'm glad I'm glad that um I made you feel welcome. Hopefully you'll be nice to me on your podcast. Now I'm on your I'm in your territory.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Oh, I will be. I love you, Issa. You are, and I also I respect you as well. That's why we wanted you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

And can I also tell you this? By the way, this is for the people who are listening. Isn't Rich Viladas, isn't he also on this podcast?

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Yes. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

So I've been to New York twice. And he won't come and see me. So I'm gonna like shade him, like while he's like, I'm like, like, we had a lunch one time and there are other clergy there. I just want to say this, and I want to meet Rich at some point. You get to talk to him every day. I've never spoken to him.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

If you're listening, if you're listening, we've put it, we've put it out there. So everyone's gonna be waiting to see the selfie of the two of them to get through Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Glenn Pacquiaum is the other person, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Mm-hmm. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

So when he came to Eaton, Glenn came by my office. Me and Glenn have hung out, me and Sharon have hung out. It's just Rich.

unknown 28:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

I don't know. I don't know. Anyways, all right. Shots, shots fired. All right.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Got fired and Rich.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

So the reason that we wanted to have you on is that one of Barna's data points as they have researched the present state of pastors, is they found that over half of pastors, so that's 58%, say that addressing complex issues with biblical integrity is a major concern facing the Christian church in the US today. And that's why I specifically wanted you to come on, is because I do think you are exceptionally gifted at doing this well. And one of the ways that I was just on your or just recorded with you earlier this week, I think. And I said to you that one thing that you said that has really stuck with me is whenever there's a a cultural event happening, the question we always need to be asking is how do we think about this specifically as Christians? And so the first question that I wanted to ask you is where do you see, like one of the obstacles to this is that pastors are being shaped either more by instinct or culture than scripture right now. And so where do you specifically see that happening?

SPEAKER_00 30:16

So let me say a couple of things. And I can say this because it's so it's so good now that I've I actually pastor churches, I pastor a church, not multiple, just one. And I I write and I teach at Wheaton College. And so when when I used to be just a writer, pastors were like, you don't know what it's like to kind of have to do this stuff. So I'm actually glad that I'm like on the ground. So I can say this not as someone looking at Pastor Minnie from the outside, ministry from the outside, but from the inside. So I want to say I understand that this that this job is hard and it's complicated, and that preaching is not something that is just easy to do. But I actually don't think that figuring out what to say is the complicated part. It's actually being willing to say it. Because few things in life are actually simple, right? It's it's it's the Christian faith in the Christian life is actually complicated. I was just actually, I'm writing a sermon right now about um 1 Peter 4, and he's like, you know, count it all joy when you suffer trials because it's participating in like the sufferings of Jesus. And I was like, to say to someone who's suffering, to consider it joyful, is a complicated statement. And the way that Peter unpacks that has nuance. So a lot of the the Bible goes to the people in complicated situations. And so what we're actually dealing with is are we willing to actually articulate a complex gospel in a complex moment? Because what often sells is the simple gospel, right? What grows your church fastest is to say, yeah, these people over here, they're bad. And we're the good guys. And the good guys just do this without any without any um context. So let me give you one concrete example. We talk about issues of like race injustice, is one of the things that I do. And if you say, hey, you know what the problem is in the church? Anytime we talk about race and diversity, it's CRT, it's wokeness, and it's dangerous. And all we need to do is just avoid that, then that's easy. You can like there are people who will listen to it. Or if you say, hey, everybody's racist, the entire church is racist, and there is no way to change, and that all white evangelicals are horrible. If you say that, you can make your own, you can have your own community there. But you can kind of go, you know, there are a lot of people, you know, there are problems in society, you know, there's still racist, there's still racism and injustice, but with the help of God and trusting in his word, here's ways we can get better. That's not a slogan, right? Um, and and and when Christianity isn't reduced to a slogan, then people have to actually listen. And you have to be able to actually be willing to articulate something. And I think then, this is when you talk about instinct, I think that there's two cultural narratives, one on the left and one on the right, that is put forward the pastors. And pastors are kind of tempted to baptize one or the other, and actually trying to hear the voice of God in the midst of these competing narratives is often complicated. And when I say anytime you deviate from that narrative, not the narrative of scripture, but the narrative of the ideology, you're seen as dangerous. And so that's what pastors are actually struggling with. Not, I think, I think we know the truth, but we're afraid of how the truth is going to be heard and then label us in the camp that we don't want to be a part of. And I think that's the hard part of being able to articulate the complexity of being Christian in America in this present period with nuance without being putting in something that doesn't actually fit you.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Mm-hmm. You know, one thing that you and I have in common is that we are both church planters. And so we have both had the benefit of really shaping the culture and values of our church from day one. And that has challenges, but it also has a lot of benefits to it. And one of those being you can set the culture from day one. We are going to navigate cultural issues in this way. We're not swinging towards the left, we're not swinging towards the right. We're trying to discern what is gospel faithfulness, what is Christian orthodoxy. What wise counsel would you give to pastors who are not in that position where they are in a church that maybe they didn't plant, they didn't shape the culture, but they are discovering some cultural idols that need to be addressed? That is a very, I want to say that is a very difficult thing to do. And so what advice would you give?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

So I want to say this. Even as a you probably know this as a church planter, even a church plant that you plant with a culture, you have to reset that culture over and over again because new people come, you know, they're being introduced to your congregation repeatedly. And so one of the things that we have to do is constantly maintain and sustain the culture that you feel like God has called you to be a part of creating. So I would say to like a pastor, I think that this this may seem overly simple. You you have to pastor the church that is actually in front of you and not the church that is in your head. And you have to do what you do for those people in love. So if there is an idol that's in your church that is harming the spiritual life of the people of God, you have to address it as a thing that is harmful, not just something that frustrates you. The things that you can just not like about your church that are that are objectively like sinful or bad, but you don't like it because it culturally doesn't fit with who you are. And so you can minister to them out of your frustration to get the church that you want instead of wanting the people in your church to flourish. Let me give you, like, um, let me talk about Paul. So Paul talks about what happens when you find someone who is in sin. This is in Galatians, I think it's chapter six. He says, when someone is caught up in a sin, you who are mature should restore them with a spiritual spirit of gentleness. But you yourself be careful lest you yourself be tempted. And Paul is actually getting at, like, we'll talk about, can I talk about Paul for a second? This is like a Bible podcast, right? We're Christians here. So what Paul is getting at there is you can diagnose a sin. But once you diagnose the sin, you're still in danger. Because while correcting that sin, it is possible for you to sin yourself. Now, what Paul means by you sinning yourself is not exactly clear. He could mean that you could fall into the same sin. So that what they're doing, you could begin doing, or he could mean that you could sin by being harsh in how you restore these people. And so once you recognize the problem, right, that you can correctly diagnose, there's still spiritual danger. And so if you recognize something in your congregation, then you have to recognize, well, okay, then how do I restore that or fix it in a way that doesn't destroy the people or lead me to sin? So there are people who I agree with on a on a bunch of issues, but they're just me and cruel, and they show nothing of the fruit of the spirit. Or like, I just don't, I don't like pastors, I shouldn't say that. It's difficult for me to be around pastors who just dunk on their congregations all of the time. And so, like, you love the people that God has given you, and you love them enough to want them to be free of these idols. And so that means that you have to be willing to disappoint them. One of the things I say to my congregation all of the time is, I love you enough to have to be willing for you to be mad at me. I love you enough to disappoint you by telling you the truth. And what I want people to be upset by, though, is if I have to correct something, is the truth itself, not my presentation of the truth. Um, and so I would say, one, love your congregation. Two, love them enough to want them to spirit um flourish spiritually. And part of wanting them to flourish spiritually is is is is uh coming against the idols that are there, and maybe I'll say one more thing. This will be point four. Idols are idols for a reason, they're strongholds for a reason. And it doesn't matter how perfectly you say things, there's some people, for let's talk about political idolatry. You can spend weeks workshopping this perfect way of articulating it, and you can do with as much charity and prayer as you want. For some people, the very touching of that thing itself is gonna leave them to leave. And one thing I can say is that one gift that you can give, you should never want to run people out of your church, like in a spirit of like cruelty. But you can't give them the gift of charity. Sorry, the gift of clarity. You can allow them to know that in this church, things are gonna happen. Let me give you an example in our church. So I said, you know, a couple of weeks, a couple of months ago, someone came up to me. I forgot I said it, but I said it. I said, I just want to be in a church where I say I care about the the child going and growing in the womb of its mother, that it's sacred, it's a gift from God. And that the way that we that, you know, I think I mentioned something about like, I think ICE was in Chicago at the time. And I want to be able to say the things that were happening in our cities and in our communities, and the way they were being treated was was not not respecting their inner spirits. And the same doctrine that had me to do this made me do that. And so I knew that when I said that in the church, there will be two different groups of people who might have been like triggered by the fact that I said these things. But it was because I want them to understand that in our church, there are, like, if it's true, we ought to be able to talk about it as Christians.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Yeah. Yeah. That's honestly really convicting the point that you made about that being careful of the temptation to sin, like once you've diagnosed that other sin, and that that temptation to sin can either be essentially accommodating sin, like it's not falling into it yourself outright, but accommodating it and kind of saying, like, here's why I'm just not gonna touch it, or swinging too hard in the opposite direction and being too harsh, and that both of those are their own kind of sin is such a such a challenging word. And I and I going back, oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

I think the part of what this this I actually care about this though, this is kind of impassioned about this. I think for me, it is all about pastors knowing what is prophetic in your context. So my church, right? When I say something about like raising justice, that's actually not prophetic at all. Like my congregation expects me to do that. So my congregation, I'll pivot and say, listen, you can go to any march that you want to, but then if you come home and you are jerk to your kids, or you don't keep the vows to your spouse, or you know, like you, I said I've said it probably 15 times that some of the deepest wounds that we have are by the people who are closest to us. And that sometimes we're running around and we're talking about national issues to avoid our own transformation of our hearts. So, in my context, that is me calling my congregation to not just to attend to the outer world, but the inner transformation. Now, you might be in a congregation that's heavy on inner transformation, and they will they will love it when you say that you know they need to pursue holiness. In that context, they need to grow in other areas. And so part of what it means to be a pastor is to ask, what are the growth areas in my community? What is prophetic there? And what we tend to do is to do what gives us a like amen in our context, and we just feel good about ourselves. And I even say it, I say it in my church. You want, you want to be in the church to say some stuff about justice to feel good about yourselves.

unknown 42:35

Right?

SPEAKER_00 42:35

That's what we that's why you're here. That means that you need to hear the other thing too, so that we can kind of follow Jesus together. Sorry, I know you got other questions. I'm gonna hand you back your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

I want to pause our conversation for a moment and say a special thank you to our partners at World Vision. World Vision has spent decades empowering the most vulnerable children around the world. And now, in partnership with Danielle Strickland, 10 by 10, and our friends here at Varna, they've created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of the kids and teens in your care. Parenting the open generation offers nine practical principles to help you navigate the real challenges today's teens are facing and to support their faith formation in meaningful, grounded ways. Download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. Again, that's worldvision.org backslash resilient26. We've also linked to it in today's show notes. Okay, back to our conversation. I mean, that was all excellent, and that's exactly why we wanted to have you on. I'm gonna ask you a question that is adjacent to that one, which is how in an environment That is pol as polarized as ours, where the divisions in the world run straight through the church. How have you approached cultivating this distinct community that is diverse when it is difficult to be in community with people who hold opposing viewpoints right now in our culture? What does that look like for you guys?

SPEAKER_00 44:25

There's two things. Um, one is when in a context where people are telling us to be less theological and more practical, I actually think we need to be more theological. So you begin to think about the book of Romans, right? Paul could have just found some kind of way to just get people to agree to kind of hang out with each other. And so when we run into problems as pastors, we tend to want to go practical. How can we get through this issue and have everybody on the same page? But no, Paul constructs an entire theological, articulates an entire theological system and says because of this, we ought to be together. Or it's God the God of the Jews only. So the doctrine of justification by faith, right, that is simply what it means for us to be Christians, facilitates multi-ethnic ministry. It's how Jews and Gentiles can live together because we're saved in the same way. And us being together testifies to, for Paul, the universal saving power with the gospel. And so Paul is actually explaining to them theologically why this is important. Because practically it's always going to be difficult. And so I would say, like, we are, I'm always trying to be more theological and not less. The second thing that I would say is in my own ministry, I've just tried to embrace weakness. So one of the other things you see Paul doing, forgive me, I did my PhD in Galatians, is that when Paul is often most pressed, he will like tell his own story in a way that like um displays his weakness, right? In Corinth. Like, you're gonna boast of your strength. Let me boast of my weakness. You're gonna boast in Philippians, he goes, you know, like all the, you know, these people value this stuff. If anybody has anything to value, I have more. Then he goes, so there's these points where Paul chooses vulnerability to counter kind of extreme aggression. Right? And so for me, I I try to do the same thing. When when there's like a big kind of cultural moment, I will try to be autobiographical. You know, I've said like I've said it to my congregation so many times, I've experienced racism from progressives, and I experienced racism from conservatives. And and and for that reason, I understand that neither one of these places is the kingdom of God. I said to them, I have, I literally, like, I'm not a I'm not an operative. So like I don't care if you like God did not call me to make Democrats or Republicans, He called me to make disciples. And so once you say that, I think it frees people to kind of go, yeah, I kind of can, I've kind of experienced these things too. And so for me, it's not always coming across as the scholar who knows everything, but it's saying, I'm a Christian, and this is hard for me too. These are the places where it's hard. And so I would say vulnerability is one thing, and I think that comes from Paul, and that's Paul, it's from Jesus, right? How does God woo us, right? Not just with a display of strength, but a display of weakness, the cross as not just a means of salvation, which it is, but also a way of reasoning and being in the world. And so I try to say, how can I be vulnerable? And how can I actually make this theological so that when people come to me, we can actually have this conversation about the Bible and scripture and not about our political and cultural differences. Maybe the last thing I'll say, this is the third point, is I'm not overly prescriptive. And like I have I've never in my church argued for a particular policy, right? This is how we should fix the national debt, right? Um, I try to talk about these broad principles that ought to impact how Christians engage the world. And that means there's freedom for people to kind of apply these principles differently and still see each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

That's so good. That's so good. Um man, there's just like a lot of wisdom in there, and I think that's gonna be really helpful, especially the well, really both, but the theological vision, like having this higher vision above kind of the fray of what's happening in the world right now. I love that. One last question before we wrap it up. I think one of the things that you and I have talked about this before, just offline, is how who are the voices that we should be listening to in this moment? Because one of the things that I've struggled with personally is how my leadership is being shaped and influenced by the noise. Because we all know about the algorithm. We know how we're all being kind of discipled by the algorithm and how easy it is to be influenced in ways to have your worldview shaped or your perception of what's happening in the nation shaped by just what is on your particular smartphone. And this makes it so difficult to kind of step back and get a sense for what A, what is really happening, and B, in view of that reality, how should I lead? And so I'm curious how you guard your attention and also listen to the the voices or or how you discern what's happening in a way that feels clearer to you.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

So I would say there's a couple of things that I've tried to be aware of. And I actually think that these are these, I think this might be, this might be important. I'm actually I might actually have something good to say here. The rest of it, who knows? Um I've learned to be cautious of people who can who can only identify with my pain. By that, I mean sometimes you've gone through something in the church or in your own life, or you see a problem in the world, or there's a trauma that you endured. And sometimes people can articulate that pain very, very well. They can say, this is what you've been through, this is the problem. And because you so identify with their articulation of the problem that you can sometimes follow their solution, even if that solution leads you like spiritually astray. And so I've learned that just because you can diagnose something, it doesn't mean that you can cure it. And then I need to understand like, is the cure that they're offering actually coming from God and His Word and the great tradition? Or am I so caught up in my pain that I've kind of lost my own discernment? The second thing is I would say, beware of false comfort. Just because someone shares, articulates your same theological convictions, right? They say something about scripture that makes you feel great in the sermon, like, but then, right, they could sometimes use that orthodoxy to once again manipulate you into like these other places. And so I have tried to ask myself, where are the places that are diagnosing something accurately and prescribing something like a biblical cure that is fit within the great tradition? So here's I'm an Anglican, right? So like everybody's got to make a decision. We're the creeds, like we're creeds, great, Nicene Creed, Apostles' Creed, authority of scripture, scripture's the word of God. We have an anchor there. Kind of a broad understanding of the great tradition, which is like, what if Christians in general believed? And so if someone comes to me and they're just outside of that thing, I just kind of go, I'm not going there. I just made this decision. I'm gonna be on the orthodox side. And that's just a theological conviction that I came to through reflection. But I kind of say, if the voice does not solve the problem within that thing that has always been Christianity, I'm gonna be suspicious. If these people share all of those convictions, but they they ask me to deny the evidence in my eyes, when my heart knows to be true. Um, and I'm also suspicious. And so I think that what we have to be able to do as clergy, as pastors, is to actually see the world as it is, not the world we want it to be. We got to actually be able to see it. Um and we have to have the confidence to believe that the great tradition of what Christians are always believed actually has the answers to what ails us. And so I'm trying to always listen to those kinds of voices that are reasoning from there and saying, I'm suspicious of people who are attempting to do other things, especially the people who are leveraging kind of our the disappointment that some might share in this moment to drive people away from the faith.

unknown 53:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

So, and or they're using their orthodoxy to to to scare people from caring for those who are suffering the most. And both of those are kind of things that I'm that I'm trying to navigate in this moment. And maybe I'll say this last one. I think because the world is complex, um I'm suspicious of like very simplistic solutions. Yeah. So like you had to have you had to have an answer thick enough to account for the complexities of the human existence.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

Right. Right. Well, thank you for that deep wisdom. Like it's the fact that you were like, I don't know if this is good or not. Like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

This was I don't get a segment though. I gave you a segment. I don't I didn't get a segment on your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

We'll have to revisit that. I'll I'll check in with Rich after you, you know, Rich next time I come to New York.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

If he doesn't come see me, it's gonna be real. I'm gonna pull up to him. Is he in Brooklyn? Where is he at?

SPEAKER_02 54:38

At Queens.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm coming to Queens next time I'm coming to New York. And where is where is uh what's what's that guy? Um where is Glenn? He's in Colorado somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

He was. He's in California now. He's in Cleans.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

I'm not coming to California. It's too far.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

For any of you listening that felt like you were sitting at the feet of a sage, I have good news for you, which is that Esau has his own podcast where every single week you can hear more of this wisdom and insights and prophetic perspective on the culture. But as we close Esau, would you mind praying for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Yes. Father, we live in a season where there's tremendous distrust for pastoral ministry and there's a tremendous pressure to compare ourselves to other clergy, especially people with large platforms. I want to pray for a spirit of contentment to fall upon every pastor, that they're able to see the work that God has given them to do as good and holy and just. I want to pray that you would help them to attend to their own souls, that the best witness they can have and give to their congregation, they would know that it is a life of faithfulness and a life of pursuing your face and your presence. Bless their ministry, bless their families, um, bless their congregations, bless their cities. Um be with them and give them strength and energy to run the race that is set before them. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Well, thank you for joining us on the Resilient Pastor Podcast. Uh, if this podcast has encouraged you, this conversation, this episode, uh, please do share it with a fellow pastor or leader. And you can find more Barna Research and Resources at Barna.com. Once again, a big thank you to one of our partners, World Vision. World Vision in partnership with Danielle Strickland 10x10, and the Barna Group, Barna team, have created a free resource to equip parents, pastors, and leaders as you guide the spiritual lives of kids and teens in your care. You can download parenting the open generation at worldvision.org slash resilient26. That's resilient26, the numbers. Thanks for watching and listening to the Resilient Pastor Podcast. We'll see y'all next time.