Optimizing You

Dr. Jourdain Lamperski - Linear Programming and Calibrating Model Parameters using Optimization

• Season 2 • Episode 3

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Jourdain Bernard Lamperski is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Industrial Engineering at the University of Pittsburgh. He received a B.S. in Mathematics from the University of Pittsburgh, and a PhD in Operations Research from the Operations Research Center at MIT where he was advised by Robert M. Freund. His research interests include optimization, machine learning, and healthcare.

We discuss Jourdain's career:
- Why did he choose to go to MIT ORC?
- How did he choose what to work on and his advisor?
- Why did he choose to become a professor in Industrial Engineering at University of Pittsburgh?

And we discuss Jourdain's research:
- He explains the 'oblivious' ellipsoid method that he developed and analyzed during his PhD
- He explains a healthcare project about using optimization methods to calibrate model parameters for the progression of opioid use disorder in patients.

Thanks for listening and thanks to Jourdain!

Hi there thanks for turning it optimizing the podcast all things optimization interested in studying optimization interested in applications my friend welcome back to optimizing you today's guest is Jourdain, Bernard Lamperski, and he is an assistant professor in the department of industrial engineering at the University of Pittsburgh he received a bachelors in math from the University of Pittsburgh and a PhD in operations research from the operations research center at MIT, advised by Robert M Freund, his research interesting food, optimization machine, learning and healthcare. Welcome Jourdain, thank you, Anthony, it's been a while since someone's calling me by my middle name usually that's usually just my mom refers to me by my middle name whenever. I'm not behaving but that's totally fine. Well you better behave on this podcast today and see if we'll see I think I saw it on. I don't know why I put it there I your faces I was reading his thesis last night to prepare for this in there by the way, I only read the first 20 pages but that's probably more than anyone else so thank you home for that you're very welcome. How are things going? The semester just ended kind of wrapping up and preparing for the summer. Yeah so it's a mess rains so my early relative to others are semester ends at the end of April so things are kind of winding down. We just finished up doing qualifying exams with the graduate students. It was a stressful time for all of them so that attention or someone I like things are really cooling down now and I'm looking forward to the summer to have some time to think again, and not have it to teach and things like that not that I don't like teaching of course I love teaching, but looking forward to having that extra time you know to do research and to to travel and do some fun things that I would be able to during the semester so it's deafly an exciting time for me very nice yeah summer seems good for everyone. Move the weathers nice to travel definitely are you traveling anywhere this summer? Yes, I will be attending a CPAIOR, which is constraint programming, artificial intelligence and operations research which is in Nice France. Oh nice that's awesome that's really great. What time of year is that or during the summer? It'll be end of May so I think weather will be beautiful near the beach. Oh nice yeah, not a lot of constraint programming going on a couple talks here and there it is nice nice are you going to go for any extra days or yes actually extra like weeks oh really oh well but I'm planning a trip with some friends, Freddie and Allie if you guys listen to this podcast, we're hitting up Budapest, Prague and Vienna and then I'm visiting another friend Ragnar in Amsterdam shout out to Ragnar and coworkers in London. Oh wow that's awesome cool name to it Amazon I like TV shows about psychics but otherwise it's nice that you can travel during the summer and add that onto your trip side and I wish I did that more in grad school when I went to the conferences, I just got to go to talk soon and come back in the area so looking doing similar stuff for sure. Try to take a vantage of those opportunities I guess what kind of travel you doing this summer yeah so I'm actually next week I'm going to this is not related to optimization research at all but I'll be going to South Carolina with my wife's family just on a vacation and I'll probably work later on if I don't it'll be like a half vacation for me because we're traveling a good amount this summer after that I'm going to visit one of our colleagues and leave in Zürich right now so I'm going to go visit him to finish up some papers and I don't think we'll actually get a lot of work done. If I'm to be honest, I feel like it'll be really exciting to explore. Zürich seems really beautiful and after that, let's see so the air conferences at some point during the summer and I'm going to that but I don't remember what it is I think that's in Toronto this year and then also I'll be going to Outer Banks with my wife for a vacation so that'll be like an actual vacation so that's like a real vacation sounds really bad for you at work work we're gonna go on that together and that'll be pretty exciting so if you seen the TV show now I've I've I've heard of it and I've seen like pictures and stuff like does it take place in outer banks her I think so and it's about some kids and some new fighting and love tri it doesn't sound like my type a shout let you know every everyone has their thing, so true yeah that sounds like a fun summer. Let's let's get into some some things about you and on this podcast we always like to do a bit about your background your career, which is full of choices or decisions and you can you know optimize your life over these decisions as we love to do and then a bit about your research and yeah call sounds good yeah fire way let's start from him Jourdain graduating from Pitt with his bachelors and choosing to go into a PhD program at MIT in OR recruiting season and students always ask me like why do you choose Sam you program so I'm curious why you chose the way you did. Yeah no that's it. A great question and to be honest I don't really know. I know the answer to some extent but but I'll try my best here, maybe let me take kind of a step back a little bit and like do some provide some context I think I think that'll help a little so, in my senior year of undergrad and by the way, thanks for doing all this research into my my life backgrou I don't know about that, but so yeah, let's see in my senior year of college at Pitt like I really didn't know what I was going to do afterwards, and when I was in undergrad light a candle light switch around between a bunch of stuff I can buy that I or within math actuary or something like a few days and I think I saw online that you actually took one of the exams as well exam P yeah yeah I took. I don't. I talk to others in addition to that one and I don't remember what they were called and I really don't remember what yeah that's for the rest of my life like it was didn't really seem super interesting to me so I switch to math Bio from, actuarial math, and then I also have a math final major so I switched that they discovered a man I really don't like biology too much so then I'll just make it mad so that and you know because I switched around so much when I was in undergrad come senior year I really didn't kind of know what I wanted to do and I started working with a engineering department I reached out to him as I came interested in taking a course on and is your programming and sounds interesting and he's like hey why don't we maybe do some research together so in my senior year we like the fall semester we wrote a paper together, and that kind of got me really interested in grad school and so then on a whim I just kind of applied to a few grad schools, and I think that says the contacts are pretty nice like to come back to your question like an iPad kind of like and I'm really happy with the decision I made but I wasn't like necessarily thinking about it too critically I was just kind of happy that I got into grad schools in at that point, I kind of was just listening to the advice of like you know the mentors that I had a pet and I made my decision kind of purely based off that I might. He was the only kind of like open house or anything that I did I did really good for all my mentors were kind of telling me he just go there and I was like OK sounds good, so yeah I mean yeah I'm really happy. I made that decision but maybe check out some of the other places as well, so and yeah, that was kind of how I I did it wasn't it was just kind of based on advice of others and when I went to the open house though, I think I think they did a great job of just like make you feel welcome and really cool so that helps to at the time right after undergrad actually I was getting married to my wife she still my wife and and I wanted to place where she could find kind of like a position as well. She was a writer and so there was a ton opportunities in Boston so it's kind of like I don't try to find like academic positions or anything but a person in my life that matters so just so many opportunities you know nothing totally fair in what I'm saying but yeah that's kind of how I decided on on MIT versus other places but yeah, in retrospect I feel like I probably should've maybe l I was like it it worked out from there from how things have been going in and how you talk about it or so so I I guess I am I'm here in two things I'm hearing ask your advisers and like professors that you know about the different universities and programs that you get into a great and great tip because they probably know a lot more than an undergrad Anthony or Jordan and consider your like lifestyle too and maybe other your family or your partner yeah or whoever yeah totally and maybe they had that a little bit like I feel like I'm like not providing the best perspective here but I think I also you should try to do like go to a place where you think you'll kind of thrive and you'll really love what you're going to do a search the main thing that kind of carries you through is your passion for whatever you're researching and if you're working with someone that you just don't care much about the topic and you just wanna get a cool job afterwards like I don't know if that's necessarily the best perspective to have I mean there's some like life circumstances where that's kind of like what makes the most sense but if you have the opportunity to explore and to find someone that I can advise her that you vibe with really well and that and a topic that I do super enjoy I think that's going to just carry you through and it won't feel like a burden or anything it'll feel like a lot of fun, so I definitely want to find like a topic and advisor that you can really vibe with and I think that's like you know it good principle in life I just do stuff that you like everyone in life can do that, but if you can do stuff that you love, yeah I think that a lot of enjoyment and happiness comes from that and so that that's my advice. Take your leave it again I probably would and maybe not the best person to listen to but but yeah that that's just what I found to work. I guess I like that a lot. Yeah do what you love. Yeah exactly that's what my mom. That's what my mom told me and at this kind of help me throughout life so yeah nice and what he said kind of transitions to my next question of choosing your PhD research topic and choosing your advisor. It sounds like you had a really good relationship with your advisor and he really liked your work but you know what the beginning of grad school you do you might not be so sure about what projects are starting like if you like them or what they're about or you know, implications of doing research in the area will be can you like talk a little about that? Yeah totally so yeah this is an interesting question and you know for some people who may be applying to more of like an IE type school assigned to work on certain projects based on grants the professors having things like that so for them, I think, choosing advisers, particularly important, because they're not gonna necessarily kind of have a lot of freedom in terms of what they work on during their their P terms of the grant pretty much need to be met but at some programs I think there is more of that freedom where you can really choose and explore and you know it and how do you kind of pick you know your advisor and also a topic that you're interested in there's definitely a balance I think because there might be an advisor working on something that's really cool that you might but you might not like them and I think that that's something definitely to consider and they might not like you and you know those are those are all things that you kind of want to take into account and yeah, I think I kind of actually like personally went through my advisor who I originally started with wasn't my advisor who I ended with actua I chose my advisor I would say more based off of both I really liked him. I thought he was a really nice person and at the time I thought you know this is the type of research that I want to do on a weird because it's like when you when you start your PhD, like at least in my case, I really didn't know what I wanted to do so I was like all right this guy seems coo, he's doing cool stuff taking more classes and learning about like I just came from a Math background I had no idea really what operations research was like to be honest I still really don't so and yeah like so I had no idea what I really wanted to do so when I I chose my advisor learn more though I was like you know I I really want to get back to doing kind of more mathematical things in and doing that type of research so that's whenever I kind of decided I want to transition to a different advisor and I pick someone who I both kind of a I really get along with well and they would get along with me well and then also is there with my first advisor but then be now also a research topic that was really interesting to me and it kind of stinks like you don't totally know that when you go in so it's kind of hard to decide like some people know but I for sure didn't and yeah that's that's a really tough problem that I don't really know the solution to but if you can do that research before and try to like read their papers in and see you like is this area kind of interesting then maybe that could help you too and who might be a good fit and the other tricky part is to a lot of the time looking for students you have another sorry you need to totally be aware of that whenever you can make your decision of what school you decide to go to the awesome to work with, but they might not be interest you know they might not have a room to take on another student, so I'm trying to figure that out as well before you kind of make your session of where you go I really valuable thing to do I think and yeah I'm I kind o know I'm not really a planner I would say and I just kind of like the wind take me in things work themselves out but if you can plan in and like invest time in that, I think it's a really good idea. Let's the wind works out and it's more interesting that way right never know where you're going is worked out yeah exactly right yeah I kind of trust the process sometimes and that's interesting at the time like making that decision or telling the first advisor do you wanna switch? Did you feel comfortable doing that yet out that was really difficult actually yeah that's him. That'that I picked up on that I think yeah I kind of going to the guy was so nice to, and he really took the time to help me and my key there is an absolutely nothing wrong with it in a position to say that he did something wrong but like he was a super nice guy and I felt really bad doing it because it wasn't based off him or like his disposition it was just totally based off of what I wanted to do research in and I I think he understood that at the time as well and he he took it really well a he's with me which I really appreciate it because I think he could've just kind of been really not nice to me at that point and I was fortunate that he was like that but in general like I think you need to be kind of careful when you try to make those transitions, you know there's politics involved there's some peoples feelings in  respect each other it's a really tricky decision you had at the time it was super hard thankfully things work out pretty good but if you can just have an honest conversation with him and try to explain that it's not them and that it's just your research interest I think that's a good perspective because it's not like it has anything to do with him I said do it yourself, so if they look at it logically people don't look at everything logically all the time. Yeah I feel like you that's really cool that you were able to do that green but I feel like as you're also growing in like research ability in math skills interpersonal skills and light maturity life yeah totally yeah I think, it's to those maybe see them as much as often. Definitely not saying that made a lot of stupid decisions and dumb and things in the best way and you know you learned you get up from the challenges and just keep going, so yeah interpersonal skills rank on people overlook that kind of, but i, a thing that you're doing and whether it's station or whatever you're doing or if they're in a totally different feel like a physician otherwise you know those connections are really going to be made so be able to develop as is is super important in foreshadowing, so my collaborations with positions I don't know if you wanna go to that now we can we can whatever however you want to couple minutes before that but I'm interested now because of all my research on you I saw that you are interested in healthcare, but I couldn't find papers on it yet yeah totally and we can we can talk. Did you wanna talk about finish my wife for sure podcast OK what else applying for this job at at University of Pittsburgh? Why did you apply to be a professor here and ultimately take the roll and are you happy with it? Are you enjoying it man? I hate it now I'm just kidding. Yeah no that's that's interesting as well. And I mean again I'm not the best planner s 10 perspective on this whenever I was graduating I knew I wanted to go somewhere and I just got a new head like to come back to Pittsburgh fire department there and everyone super nice to work there and there's also a really strong of people work in the medical field and healthcare that's kind of li I kind of want to take my research little bit more of those directions so I was like drivers sure you know and it helped that a lot of people from there still in that they knew me so it would be a good fit I think but yeah so I think another big good fit and things like that I think my family and same with my wife's family so my wife and I we met in high school actually the pizza shop working together I'm like 30 we met when we were and I was 17 years, so yeah so you know that was like she's alwa she's always been a really big part of my decisions and she didn't she didn't wanna come back to Pittsburgh. I don't know I don't wanna you know if I wanna do something new and interesting and I don't know coming back here in family in every other weekend if that but it's s, and yeah of the two today factor is another thing too. That was kind of interesting. Looking back on the time is it when right after I excepted you know offered covid it really started to kind of break out and everything and it was interesting, because it really expensive to live in where we living currently we lived in a studio apartment and it was she was working it like a furniture place and she doesn't like her website and we were both working just in a studio apartment. It's just one room and it w stuff and think about stuff and then she was taking all the zoom calls and so what we did finishing up my PhD as we knew we were going to be coming here anyways. Space and yeah retrospect out but yeah again no it was environment and social connections and eventually it perspective that's very nice. I love it here and it is way cheaper than Boston in a city west of Chicago Illinois. Oh yeah, there's exactly big Christian college on my friends went there and yes, kind of nice suburbia out in Wheaton and probably cause I'm and 27 here , I will be you one day if you're on podcast Baltimore for undergrad and then worked in New York City and then Pittsburgh families like are you coming back to Chicago? Are you settling somewhere on all over experience? It's expensive to live in New York right of that. yes although I was working as a software developer in finance, so my salary in New salary yes, enjoying it professor professor from you and then now when you kind of become the riser and you have your teaching and maybe writing grandson other things has like the transition to transition again since it happened during Covid it was really interesting because my first year year an I never really got to meet with any of my colleagues and thankfully I helped me along in with me on some things and that the people that worked with me to transition so much easier. I think it'll be weird going from irresponsibility and all that time, but like you know, way too many responsibilities and you're a lot  to get everything done you need to become there's a lot of things to learning curve for me again it wasn't like super bad or anything or challenging. A lot of work you have to teach as well that's different from material papers feel like there's so much that I think about it right now I can't feel like I have no idea what's go on forever about meetings like things are really interesting I mean the other is kind of a joke department so I feel like it's a bad thing. It's kind of fun in someways. Kind of interesting. Yeah, I mean the kind responsible for a lot of things like y for interesting but need to happen and again I feel like I'm forgetting so much. Yeah I think there's like your consequences to like if you don't like a few weeks or a month late on a paper as long as it done by this time and yeah, I just a l position as well so you're just responsible for like every day when I wake up but most days when I wake up, I'm thinking about a light put them on the right track flight working on with her responsible for your students as well. Making sure they get good jobs and some people probably just work or something but I know that's kind of like my main goal. I think that's probably not as much about yourself by at least that's kind of how I feel about it. Sounds like you're a great advisor. Yeah that's a good idea or maybe not a lot more responsibility a lot of the time management multitasking and then ye like weight that you're really care about advising they're happy and I think that side really nice. I think I was reading an article that said people are happiest in their jobs when they feel like they're helping others or that's like a very big characterist nurse or a doctor. It's like they're directly helping out people physically with their problems or advisers. Yeah we're like a job. Yeah I guess one thing yeah totally is one thing though that I miss I feel like you could kindly disappear for 2 to 3 weeks and just like you're thinking about some, cannot be on your door reaching out to you and I really miss you going off the radar for two or three weeks. I'm just thinking about my dear to do that a little bit but I really miss being able to think about things kind of deeply, and take the time to to do that, when you do that you should be careful too yeah and if you told me you live kind of in the middle of nowhere forms trip to cottage in the forest and hang out for a couple weeks and I'll still be nice to have everyone over and do that I don't like people or anything but I like having a peace quiet and being really think about stuff and I have actions and in the city I really like doing outdoor stuff too so I'm a big mountain biker and I live right by a lot of the trail after work 30 minutes maybe 30% of it you know those choices are more got it and all right yeah for sure OK so I read linear inequalities and you have this cool new ellipsoid method and oblivio it was a fun name to technical. Maybe could you talk about some of the history there and and some of what you did yeah I totally I can try you know it's been a little bit. I'll try my best to him so one of kind of like interested in optimization problem for a ton of different applications and practices. Linear programming and media linear programming is optimization problems you're just trying to minimize an objective option so it's kind of like everything right like when your functions are work with so so your programming is a fundamental problem in an optimization operat for a while about it to and maybe out but yeah there's there's a few different than when your programs are solution and maybe with me in your programming pretty much you can you can formulate and chill and talk about with your programming inside the formulation to this leak, Kate, emotional, hyper cube of some orientati or programming and everyone and I hated learning about I'm not sure but I loved practice by theoretical standpoint Pecin counter examples where times before you get to an optimal solution and practice in theory and then round World War II no 40s or 50s around that time and I have left open an interesting question like you like can we solve when your programs efficiently in theory like knock knock Jin practice because he practiced by it doesn't really work in theory and that question was answered by Koch in town I think in the 80s around that time and there was an earlier algorithm developed by Nemerovski and then indepe khachiyan considered at the website algorithms out with the time that number husky and then short about it it it's no the theoretical properties are they weren't really understood. It was just an algorithm that worked in conscientious Iran in some thing and and polynomial time and and and at least in like thi technically runs it was called weekly polynomial time and I get into this on my thesis and I probably won't go into this now because I'll just start to bore everyone in. Can I go off topic little bit but it'll help but yeah, a lot of the so now we have a fe w methods or hour and that works well in theory time but when people start it actually run out it's terrible. It doesn't work well at all and practice so I know you know an hour and that works well and practice in theory and then later interior appointments as were theory in most like when your programming solver today is a combination of your appointment and the website method doesn't at all payroll and any of those offers but yeah one wasn't gonna talk about the history but I just kind of went they all kind of came back to me if it's 10 minutes and listen to what I'm about to say now, so yeah, I want one of interesting thing about these three are kind of what I would call. The three main algorithms and part of it is based on a based on history I would say in, and you know the landmarks th kind of interesting about was really kind of pointed out by our co-author my Todd, who is at this point his professor emeritus at Cornell University went interesting thing is that like if you've worked at the Simplex method before you know that it naturally produces a solution to th I'm just gonna say that leave it at that and it turns out that for interior appointments. You can pretty like natural and easy to obtain certificates as well order to optimal solutions to the door, but was kind of interesting about the ellipsoid algorithm. Is that like the whole algorithm its in the con un and sorry to provide some summer contacts in the contacts of linear inequality's. I do you have a primal when you're an adult and geometric interpretation are you start with the region and idea that primal regions feasible so it's kind of a really interesting questio like whenever your problem come up with a version of the website points returns of the solution to the door whenever whenever I was kind of like in like just like there's really no reason to care about this whatsoever it's more just kind of like a theoretical question of interesting and yeah so that's pretty much what we did as we just showed that if you make some minor tweaks to the website out for them and keep track of kind of like these candidate door solutions as you go on and you can eventually kind of that is in the sense that you don't kno searching for a solution, and eventually all return, depending on which ones or not but again it's important to keep in mind right that this algorithm like totally theoretical theory is he could just run parallel on the prime on the door, and he would obtain a solution to one or the other, and was kind of interesting about that that we found the paper and to be honest I still don't really understand fully is they were some li rhythm instead of running the parallel and regimes then there are some benefits as well but that in the paper cause it looks nice but it's really kind of interesting? What's going on with the door in this problem because of other ones so naturally produce solutions to it out of our area that is kind of that problem and not sure if I'm remembering correctly I like that a lot yet I just grabbed a very well from from my understanding. Yeah an N I didn't think about that at all when I like I knew there was tears but I never thought about which ones certificate of this problem to find a way to to get that. Yeah, totally some in our head or there's a lot of interesting like kind of future directions to explore very much if you're interested in a noble pursuit, then you know there are some interesting things like more generally really poor in practice and interesting question and again this probably doesn't have an answer of, it is there any way to modify it so that you can make it official and practicing our people are probably just off to try to do that with a different cut of the people develop. Think it would be. I think there's some down there and yeah, there's a lot of still really interesting open questions related to linear programming but at this point a lot of the questions are open or p challenging but if anyone totally pursue it down because a lot of the problems that we don't know the answers to her pretty hard at this point so so as well yeah I saw you pursued some Gérard Cornuejols here at CMU to related to Linear inequalities and I know he has a lot of open problems that are very difficult. Yeah so I I in opportunity to talk to Gerard and I've been thinking about he has a book called and he's packing and covering or something like that. There's a number of open problems in at the states and he's like maybe 11 or 12 thought about one related to balance matrices for a few years, actually in an impart in included in my thesis, but I think that's still a really interesting open question as well and yeah, I probably wouldn't even be able to. I haven't been out again. This kind of goes back to the question like you know wh is a professor like when you're trying to get tenure so that you know you don't want to spend two or three years thinking about interesting let me just play with it in for a week and a month I need to actually get back to work it's gonna help me so make sense of it so what is going to help you Jordan baby? Is this your healthcare kind of, so yeah, at the moment I'd say I'm a little spread thin in terms of what I'm working on so working on healthcare maybe a little bit more specifically department and I can tell you a little bit about the other thing in like a number of different public health to understand h and when I when I say that I mean the individual level it is spreading across the population in a human like how long does it take for a benign tumor to become important understand because I can help people too far along and things like that and you know they come up with these like these crazy model and buy like you should think of it is it's kind of like maybe you have like a Markov chain model of cancer cancer spreading and then you have another state imagine kind of there's transition and it had it on top of it like the transition probabilities are these cra get pretty complicated pretty quick and one kind of question it's an interest this models , how how do you computer printer the controls kind of how quickly a tumor grows because in reality like you could run a clinical cool study to try to like observe us, but in reality, those are very expensive so we don't have a lot of that that data so what they try to do is they try to basically calibrate the parameters to gree with like data that's be there is no kind of like a priority and I can take a really long time to run to actually and even if you are a few days he might really interesting questions that way and avoid problems for like optimization machine learning people to is come up with optimization formulations for these calibration problems and problems and the moment like basically models where either you don't know the transition probability and you want to calibrate them or a transition functions of the patients to calibrate kind of like ovarian and working on some  models and previously was taking them down to seconds and that's really important because we want to calibrate this models in every county in the United States. So if we are each county took a day or two basically pretty awesome so that's the work that I've been working on with the public health people CDC and that's been really exciting an parameters being identifiable or not and so we've been working on thinking about these for a conference here in months ago but yeah and then I say the other side of my work bike I am really interested and I would say discrete but also geometric problems theoretical standpoint, so I'm working on developing approximation problems and and I still think about and general with what I work on a lot of the times thinking about it and I just like to explore and have fun at work out if it doesn't I think it's really nice that you do one project. I have a great application at your other projects, graph problem directly like this is for opioid, model, fun, math, problem or something like having those problems that you know each other. It's kind of nice to be able to go back-and-forth because you kind of like sat on a single topic and her to or I would just lik, maybe I was not really sure but now I take a break maybe you can figure something out with another or something like that so yeah that's it and I would encourage as well. You don't wanna be like doing everything and doing nothing but do you want to like you know I have with each other yeah I totally agree with that. Well we're running towards the end of the time here is there anything else you would like to to discuss or talk about maybe re-searches about anything are you really excited about some results or PhD students or anything yeah no I don't know. Let me think about this, I think I think it's kind a like I feel like when you're in grad school bye you know and there's totally like I think if you just get off or something like I think we wanna try to make the most of it and do some things totally down a little bit, so I think I sou really competitive but if you're relaxed and helps you to like find some type of peace in your mind. You a lot better work and you're also gonna be a lot happier balance your research like with my dog or like like working on our house or something like we're hanging out with my wife I mention it las, but yeah I mean I feel kind of weird saying this like but I think a lot of researchers are just like totally all in and that's all they do and like they're probably super successful and stuff but like but I think it as well and I think it's totally possible by just having in a weird saying this because I know say some people are you talking about you should just keep going hard all the time in for a while but like but at least for me personally, I found it like you know like taking an hour to go mountain biking late lunch or at in the evening just helps me so much and I didn't do that in grad school. I just worked all the time but now I feel a lot, I'll end on yeah I think I think unless you have anything else that you want to say advice. I'm right there with you I love just mowing the lawn mowing the lawn taken care of the house unclogging drains are like what is wrong mostly not be on and like yanking it's messages think about nothing or blades o, so that sometimes feels good in that way too yeah obvious and I feel like I really like just hearing people say things that maybe people think are obvious but just hearing them say simple truths is so nice and just like a good reminder of yes, I should thoughts about work life, balance, and that like you know, I should take a take a I am I have a been grinding too hard and do I need to take a break because sometimes you don't even realize so it's very nice yeah totally for sure so yeah well thank you.