Parveen Shaikh is an established professional in the field of education for over two decades. In this episode, Parveen shares about her recent article published in Teacher Plus Magazine, Having Those Difficult Conversations. The article speaks to how picture books may be used in therapeutic ways to help navigate conversations about death with children of all ages. As the principal of The Somaiya School in India, Mumbai for almost 10 years, she has made the school a vibrant center for learning and growth for all.
Parveen’s Recent Published Writing:
Parveen’s Recommended Resources:
Picture Books:
Parveen’s Recent Research:
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Parveen Shaikh is an established professional in the field of education for over two decades. In this episode, Parveen shares about her recent article published in Teacher Plus Magazine, Having Those Difficult Conversations. The article speaks to how picture books may be used in therapeutic ways to help navigate conversations about death with children of all ages. As the principal of The Somaiya School in India, Mumbai for almost 10 years, she has made the school a vibrant center for learning and growth for all.
Parveen’s Recent Published Writing:
Parveen’s Recommended Resources:
Picture Books:
Parveen’s Recent Research:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Ep 11: Having Difficult Conversations with Children: Why Death Should Not Be a Taboo Topic with Parveen Shaikh
Olivia: <Schoolutions Intro> I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so very fortunate to introduce you to my guest, Ms. Parveen Shaikh. Parveen is an established professional in the field of education for over two decades. Her expertise as a mentor and coach for the professional development of pre-service and in-service teachers has been widely acclaimed.
Her forte lies in designing age-appropriate curricula and learning spaces for schools. Parveen has a master's degree in human development and education. She is currently pursuing her PhD. As the principal of The Somaiya School in India, Mumbai for almost 10 years, she has made the school a vibrant center for learning and growth for all.
She has received several awards for her leadership in the field of education. Parveen welcome.
Parveen: Thank you so much.
Olivia: I'm honored to have you as a guest. And I had the privilege of picking you up at a friend's home in 2016 in Binghamton, New York. You were visiting the states to study our school systems and we had a lovely commute back and forth for a couple of days connecting about our families.
Parveen: I must admit that I learned so much from you that day because I attended one whole day of training with you.
Olivia: Yes, it was wonderful. And I remember my favorite part of that day was driving back and forth-our commute-and just connecting our families. I remember a story you told me. We were talking about books and how vital they are in our children's lives. And we were joking that there's always enough space for books in our homes.
And you shared, that you, at one point had books coming out of cupboards because you were lacking storage. Do you remember that?
Parveen: Yes!
Olivia: Parveen, I love to ask every guest who an inspiring educator is in their life. It can be someone from childhood that resonates for you. So, who would that be in your life, Parveen?
Parveen: So, I would say somebody that I'm following these days, uh, John Hattie. He is the professor of education at the University of Melbourne, and he has done some very impactful work in visible learning. And it's a research-based work, which is impacting the way we look at education. So yes, definitely. It would be John Hattie.
Olivia: Thank you so much.
I wanted to invite you to be a guest because you published an article, Having Those Difficult Conversations, and it is so beautifully crafted for families, for educators, with accessible points of conversation around: How do we have conversations around death with children?
And it is part of life. So how do we address that? I will, include links to the article in the show notes. I asked your permission to read an excerpt from the article. I think it's a perfect entry point to conversation. So, I'm going to jump into do that.
"Death is an inherent part of the human life cycle. We need to end the taboo surrounding death and create an environment that allows a natural response to death, grief and mourning. Let us enable honest and non-threatening dialogue about death with children, both at home and in school."
I think that what the world has gone through over the last two years with COVID, and you're in India. So, you've experienced it in similar and different ways. Being a principal of an elementary building. I think that you have a vantage point to provide your teachers with this level of professional development, but what Parveen spurred you on to choose to speak to this, to write this article?
Parveen: So, like you said, all of us are going through pandemic. And two years have been the time when we have been talking about death, not talking so much, but seeing death. So, every family has experienced death in some way or the other, but like I said, it's a taboo. So, nobody wants to talk about it. In the news, you will hear numbers. How many COVID cases...how many COVID deaths. But beyond numbers, I think we haven't spoken about death. And besides that, in today's day and time, I'm also seeing that every family has either one or two cancer patients and parents and families are suffering quietly. Sometimes they keep it hidden. They don't say that somebody suffering from terminal illness, unless the signs of illness become very apparent.
So, the idea that, why are we not speaking about death bothered me. I also faced a personal experience where my youngest sibling suffered with cancer. So, I was looking at death from a very, very close quarter at home and things around it. I really thought it's an, it's a very important topic that needs to be addressed.
We do talk about other areas of growing up, which are very positive, which we think we connect to childhood, but somehow we look at death in a very negative manner, and we don't want to connect that negative aspect with childhood, which is seen as something which needs to be protected or children who need to be protected from death.
It came from within the need was there to express it. And I think I put it down on paper and I hope it helps.
Olivia: You did. And the talking points that we're going to speak to over this interview are directly from the article. Something I found tremendously helpful was the guidance you provide speaking to the anticipatory guidance that can help children cope with the experience. What is some of the guidance you recommend?
Parveen: Because I was seeing so much of death around me and being a school principal, I also wanted to know when students come back to school, how do we guide them? I did a lot of research. I read up a lot and this concept of anticipatory guidance is really, really very important because why should we wait for death to occur and then think about dealing with it.
Why not prepare children beforehand? All schools have libraries and libraries are stocked with books, beautiful books. It's a good idea to use books as a medium to start the conversation. Children relate to books, children relate to stories, and you will be very surprised if you do research. We come across such wonderful books, which are written on this topic.
That is a vast choice from which you can pick up depending on the age of the child. So, the idea is stories become a conversation starter. And with that you can build on, and these books are written in a manner where death is seen as part of life. It is not seen as something which needs to be feared or something to be scared of.
So that becomes very important. And also, these books help you to cope with bereavement. They tell you that death is final. So, some of the ideas that children struggle with, they don't know what death is because that comes across as a very abstract concept. These books help them to understand what death actually is.
So, using storybooks really, really helps, but again, we need to choose books wisely, depending on the age of the child.
Olivia: You do a brilliant job in the article, giving references and offering books as resources. And I will include those in the show notes as well. The term bibliotherapy I learned from you. It's the process when learning from a book has therapeutic benefits. We all know what it feels like to be read beautiful picture books, but you're taking that a step farther by expressing how stories are an integral part of childhood offering the potential to heal. And you just gave some really lovely examples of the notion that death is final, but it doesn't have to be that we're waiting until it occurs to speak to it with children.
I'd love for you also to highlight the four main concepts of death based on children's levels of understanding, because I think it will offer families and teachers accessible entry points for conversation.
So, can you speak to that?
Parveen: Yeah. So normally when we think of death, like I said earlier, it seems like a very abstract concept, but if you really break it down for children to understand, simplify it for them, it boils down to four main points. First of all, death is permanent. It is unchangeable and it is everywhere. That's something that we need to tell our children.
And there are ways and means through which we can tell them that death is final. And also, when a person dies, all functioning stops, that's something that children may relate to because they may have seen a dead bird. They may see it may have seen a dead insect and they may have experienced death of a pet.
So, they may relate to that, that all functioning stops when a person dies. Death is inevitable. So, this idea is very important that all living beings die. If it's a plant, if it's an animal, if it's a human being, it will die. So, death is inevitable and also that death has a cause. It doesn't just happen.
There's always a cause related to it. So, these are four things that we should focus on when we are talking to children about death. These are the four concepts or ideas.
Olivia: And your main recommendation is that you introduce these concepts, through picture books, through reading to children. And I know from being a teacher myself, it's often extremely helpful…and as a mom, I'm going to say…to let the children guide the conversation.
And so, as you're reading the book, you don't have to necessarily plant the seeds, let them ask questions and evoke their own curiosity, and they will come to the concepts often themselves.
Would you agree with that or what are your thoughts?
Parveen: Yes, certainly. I would certainly agree with that. The idea is that we use the book to start a conversation and give children entry points to come up with their questions, their doubts, their worries, their fears. And you be an excellent listener. You sit back and listen. So, all children are wanting somebody to listen to them, to validate their feelings, to validate their fears, and if need be, you come in and you take the conversation further.
And that's the point I want to bring in is normally teachers and adults think that picture books are only for children, but I have always found picture books equally important and meaningful for adolescents and even for adults. I mean, even adults can relate to them if needed. So that notion that picture books are only for children, I don't think that holds true. And even an adult can use the book for the process. Yeah.
Olivia: I agree. And I'd love to have you speak more to that connection between home and school, because these conversations are obviously quite sensitive. And I think that's part of the reason that they've remained as you’re deeming taboo, right? It's uncomfortable. And a lot of us as adults want to try to make children feel comfortable yet children often crave understandings of the world around them and are willing to go into that uncomfortable territory. So how do you scaffold these conversations as a principal between educators and families and children?
Parveen: I would say that teachers have an advantage over you because teachers are spending a lot of time with children. So outside of family, I would say teachers share a very trusting relationship with their students. And teachers are also people who are observing children on a day-to-day basis. So, they are people who will be able to see any signs if a child is not adjusting to grieving, if the child is not adjusting to the process of grief and they will be able to see it first. And that's where they come in. And because children, share a very good rapport with teachers, this conversation may be easier for them to start off with. Another point is when there is a death in the family, or if somebody is ailing, somebody suffering from terminal illness, the whole family is struggling to deal with that situation.
And the adults in the family may also be dealing with their own grief, their own fears. And they may not be in the emotional state to help the child. That's where teachers come in. But there is a lot of results that say that teachers feel a little unprepared for this job, because unfortunately, even in the training program, this concept is not covered.
So even though the teacher has the willingness and desire to help the child, they're a little skeptical because they don't know whether they are doing the right thing. So that needs to be some amount of training given to teachers. Maybe it can be part of the training program that teachers receive. And especially after COVID, this can be organized because a lot of children have seen death closely.
And when they come back to school, I think teachers will be the first people that they would be in touch with. So training is required and that's how teachers can connect.
Olivia: I would love for you to share more about the culture in India. Between teachers and families or educators and families. I know right now in the states, there's a lot of tension. It's pretty adversarial-that relationship or rapport between students and families, depending on where you are in the states.
Would you share for listeners? What does that relationship involve? That home to school connection? How do you know what's going on?
Parveen: Definitely the connect is very, very strong. The communication between the parents and school is very strong. Today in fact, my school has an open house where parents had come in to meet the teachers. And the feedback that I received is that I have got such a wonderful 360-degree feedback about my child.
And also, the trust that was bridged the last two years, when we went online, when the parents realized that the objective of the school is to continue learning and the teachers have given that a hundred percent, they have given the best, no matter where they stayed, what kind of scenarios at home they have supported.
So, there is an ongoing communication, from school to parents and parents to school. If there is any behavior change that we observe, we automatically connect with family to see what's happening at home. Is this something that we can help them with?
And many times, it so happens that we do know that there is maybe a person unwell at home and a parent is struggling and we reach out and we provide support. If suppose a class teacher knows that the child has a family member who's suffering, she would pick up a story book which is related to the topic, and she will do the story with the whole class.
So, it doesn't become directed towards the child, but it could be done in the circle time where children start talking about death, or maybe how to take care of somebody who's unwell at home. So, it becomes very automatic, which yes, the connect is very, very strong.
Olivia: It sounds like there's a lovely level of respect between families and educators and that they saw that teachers were working tirelessly to ensure education was maintained. What is the role as well of therapists?
Parveen: Counseling and any kind of mental health related issue, it's still a big no-no. So, if a child requires any kind of counseling or remedial work, there may be a little convincing that we need to do. And sometimes it takes a longer interaction with parents, for them to understand the value of early intervention.
So that is a taboo. Anything related to mental health is a taboo, so it requires extra work. I work very closely with my intervention team. And then I get involved when it is an interaction with parents. And sometimes it takes time, but parents come around and they see the value in what we're doing.
Yes, it is very much cultural, but I'm very happy to see that it's changing gradually in India. People are becoming aware, so I would attribute more to lack of awareness. Because people's understanding of what mental health is. And now that with awareness, it is becoming better. It is definitely becoming better.
Olivia: And so, I guess the other question is you were mentioning that teachers deserve to have the proper training and tools to be able to speak to these issues with children. What do you see as proper training? Could you name some of the resources that you think are best?
Parveen: Picture books are an excellent source. Why not train teachers into using those picture books for the right kind of read aloud and then how to hold a conversation? See, reading a story book is simple. They may know because they already drained teachers, but then what follows, what kind of conversations to have, and it is absolutely all right to also say, I don't have the answer because sometimes teachers take it upon themselves that I should have all the right answers. And since it is a sensitive topic, they're extra careful. So, it is absolutely alright to say, I don't have an answer to this.
But the idea of holding space... I think we need to train our teachers how to listen actively, how to be there for a child, how to be empathetic. So, a lot of our soft skill training will be required for teachers. And I'm very sure teachers also have lot of questions that they have never asked about death because obviously they were raised in the same culture where nobody spoke about death. So first of all, it should be with them answering their questions.
What is it that they worry about death? What is it that stops them from having this discussion into a classroom and then giving them the right skills, soft skills, of listening and then taking the training for them further?
Olivia: I agree. I agree. And so, have you done this explicit training with your staff?
Parveen: We started doing this very subtly and this happened way back even before COVID because I started getting the right books in the library. I personally feel library is a very important place in a school setup. If you want to see if a school is good, go and visit the library.
So, we started bringing books in the school library, which, connect with topics which may be considered taboo. So that definitely, so we have some lovely books. And initially what I saw that most of the books were written in foreign countries. They were not Indian but now the trend is changing and there are lovely Indian authors who have also written books on the topic of death. So that shows that there is some change in this area.
Olivia: That's wonderful. What other topics do you have or that you're cultivating?
Parveen: I'm also talking about, gender. Gender is one big issue. In fact, I did a day long training on LGBTQ community. I called in a representative and first I did the training with my teachers because I knew they had lots of biases. They had lots of ifs, and buts, and questions. So, we had a day long training that they interacted with the person they asked the relevant questions. So, these are the kinds of things that you're looking at.
Olivia: Parveen, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to speak to this topic. You've given so many resources for educators and for families, again, in your article, you outline exact behaviors of what children would exhibit and their levels of understanding when it comes to death. I also want to thank you for being willing to hold space for these difficult conversations. Our children deserve that, and it sounds like the most beautiful thing is you're, the type of leader that recognizes any behaviors you want to see in the classroom. You have to also live that work with the grownups, right? The grownups in their life.
Parveen: Yes. That’s true, that’s true. Yes.
Olivia: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you and I am excited to see how this work evolves for your staff. So, we'll definitely have to circle back once you've implemented this training fully with your staff. Thank you so much, Parveen.
Parveen: Thank you.
Olivia: Now you have to have dinner because although it's 9:00 AM in the states, it's 6:30 PM your time. Yes. All right. Take care.