Innovative and progressive educator Pernille Ripp offers listeners a vision and steps for reimagining their literacy instruction through global collaboration. Pernille shares stories about her educational journey and the evolution of the Global Read Aloud - a globally-collaborative project she began in 2010.
Connect with Pernille at pernillesripp.com & Pernille's Blog and on:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Innovative and progressive educator Pernille Ripp offers listeners a vision and steps for reimagining their literacy instruction through global collaboration. Pernille shares stories about her educational journey and the evolution of the Global Read Aloud - a globally-collaborative project she began in 2010.
Connect with Pernille at pernillesripp.com & Pernille's Blog and on:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today.
[00:00:17] Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl, and I am pinching myself that I have the privilege to welcome my guest today, Pernille Ripp. Pernille is a Danish-born educator and a first-generation immigrant who until recently was teaching and living in the United States. Her work centers on practices and decision-making that support co-creating learning spaces that not only respect and honor each child, but also help create opportunities that go beyond our schools.
[00:00:43] Olivia: Pernille is the author of four professional learning books: Passionate Readers, Passionate Learners, Empowered Schools, Empowered Students, and the book we will delve into today, Reimagining Literacy Through Global Collaboration. Pernille's work in fostering classroom connection, community, and engagement has received multiple national-level awards and been featured by the New York Times, The Guardian, Publishers Weekly, Literacy Today, Educational Leadership, and School Library Journal.
[00:01:16] Olivia: Pernille founded the Global Read Aloud in 2010, a free global literacy initiative with a simple goal: one book to connect the world. Currently, over 1 million students across 85 different countries participate every year, with thousands more joining each year. It is my honor to welcome you, Pernille, someone I see as one of the most inspiring, brave, and progressive educators in the world.
[00:01:45] Olivia: Thanks for being here.
[00:01:47] Pernille: Thank you for inviting me. It's an honor and I'm excited to sit here in conversation with you today.
[00:01:52] Olivia: We both know how educators inspire so many out there in the world. Who is an inspiring educator from your life that you could share for guests?
[00:02:03] Pernille: Yeah, so you gave me a heads up on this question, and I kept coming up with all of these incredible people that I follow on social media or that I have the privilege of having known through various capacities, and yet it kept coming down to kids.
[00:02:19] Pernille: And I know that that sounds really cheesy, but I think I'm learning more. I mean, I've always been super inspired by kids, but I think also kind of you alluded to it in the intro until recently, seven weeks ago, I was living and teaching in the U.S. and in the seven weeks that have passed, we moved back home to Denmark, the country I haven't been living in for 24 years.
[00:02:42] Pernille: And seeing my own kids adapt into a culture that on the surface looks really similar but is quite different has been really inspiring and also just how they're making space for all of the emotions that are attached to that. So, I think if I'm truly thinking about inspiration where I'm at right now, I think it's my own kids and just how they're navigating a culture, how they're navigating learning in a totally new language and also learning a language.
[00:03:08] Pernille: And just sitting with all of the emotions that comes from leaving everything that you've ever known behind at the whim or at the dreams of your parents and having to trust adults in that situation. And I think it speaks a lot to the work that I've done anyway, because so much of what kids do in our presence, right?
[00:03:25] Pernille: Is like, they show up and they kind of and they kind of have their heart on a platter and they're like, you know, please, please protect it. And then it's whether it's up to us, whether we pay attention to that and make space for that, or if we rush through the day and then just kind of forget about the child and instead focus on the curriculum.
[00:03:43] Pernille: So. But I will say there are incredible educators out there. I can think of so many. I think of Liz Kleinrock, Sara Ahmed, you know, just there, there are so many people just doing incredible work. Um, but I also think of, of the people who are still in the classroom. I think of my colleagues back home in Oregon, Wisconsin, who are simply just picking up the pieces because that’s what we do, every single day.
[00:04:12] Olivia: This is the issue that I want to talk to you about. The greatest gap in American education is the underestimation of student genius and their capacity to contribute. We don't see students as agents of impact. Yesterday, I pulled Reimagining Literacy Through Global Collaboration off my shelf, and I was rereading it next to my 10-year-old, and I said: You know, Henry, The notion of a globally connected classroom.
[00:04:43] Olivia: He said: What, what do you mean a globally connected classroom, mom? And I said: It's thinking of how your voice can have such a far reach that you can cause change and ripple effects so far beyond the walls of your classroom as a fifth grader. Then he looked at me and he was like, yeah, yeah, mom, I'm going to go back to doing what I was doing.
[00:05:04] Olivia: But there's something you say that it just, it's everything and I want to read it for listeners. We are in charge of educating tomorrow's adults and those adults need to be literate, not just in the traditional sense, but also in the global sense. We should create and embrace learning opportunities that allow students to explore other cultures, other mindsets and other worldviews.
[00:05:32] Olivia: Yes, yes, yes. You just shared with listeners; you've left the United States. You're living in Denmark with your beautiful family. What was the impetus for the decision to leave and to move home?
[00:05:47] Pernille: I mean, the dream has been there for a long time. I moved to America as an 18-year-old with my family, and it was supposed to be this one year.
[00:05:54] Pernille: And then of course life happens. And I met a really great guy, and he introduced me to an even better guy who became my husband. And so, life just kind of started taking its form. And I loved my life in America, especially my local life, the people I worked with, my family being there, my friends, and also the incredible things that can happen in the United States that maybe can't happen in other countries as far as opportunities and whatnot, but the last couple of years and even before Corona were hard.
[00:06:25] Pernille: It was hard living in a nation that you love, but also seeing how it doesn't always love its people back. It was hard being a mom to four kids in an education family, my husband is a teacher as well and was going through school for a while to get a teaching degree and to feel like I never had time for my own children.
[00:06:45] Pernille: That the education system in itself has forced those in it, the adults in it, to self-sacrifice everything they have in order to be more present for the kids and be the kinds of teachers that all kids deserve. But I saw it play out in my own life where my kids were constantly asking for more and then they finally stopped asking for more because they knew the answer was always going to be the same.
[00:07:08] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:07:08] Pernille: And I think honestly what the tipping point was, was one of the latest mass shootings, the one in Texas in Uvalde. And standing in my classroom at the exact same time talking about gun ownership in America with my students as we were talking about who has access to the American dream, coming home, seeing the news, and then having to go back into my classroom space the next day, look at the tourniquet kit hanging on my wall and going: This isn't okay.
[00:07:33] Olivia: No, it’s not.
[00:07:33] Pernille: And the things that we have normalized in order to survive are completely tearing my heart apart. And so, I could tell that my mental health was not where it needed to be. I didn't feel like I was finding as much joy as I was before, and I, I didn't feel like I was showing up in spaces the way I wanted to.
[00:07:56] Pernille: But I also think of the incredibly privileged position we sit in, right? That when we then talked more about it and said, you know, for the last 13 years, we've been talking about this idea of moving home.
[00:08:06] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:07] Pernille: Which of course is not home for my husband, but making that decision and going, you know, let's look into this. Like, can we actually do it? And is there a job and all of those things? And then it moved really quickly. And by July 7th, I had a job, and we made the decision to move, but that's a privileged position. How many people get to leave the country behind, right?
[00:08:26] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:08:26] Pernille: And, and I'll say that I struggled with the position or with sitting in that privilege and going, uh, do I leave a country whose potential I believe in so much and whose fight I've been a part of for so long in order to, to kind of protect myself and protect my own children?
[00:08:44] Pernille: And I got to talking to my husband about it more. And I finally reached the conclusion that it, it almost felt as if it was trying to leave an abusive relationship. You keep thinking that you're going to be able to change it, but at some point, the change isn't happening, and you have to protect yourself.
[00:09:01] Pernille: But, um, I think also now sitting in Denmark, I'm allowed to fight in much louder ways. My school district has been incredibly supportive of the work I did and the voice that I had out in the world. They were absolutely amazing. It was the hardest school district to leave because I knew I had won the lottery.
[00:09:20] Pernille: But I think now that I sit further away, I can also sit and continue to voice some of the things I've said for a long time and really continue the fight and continue to support all the people that are still sitting in classroom spaces every day fighting from the inside who are sitting under gag orders and all that.
[00:09:39] Olivia: Yeah, I just, I think you're incredibly brave and it's also terrifying to make the leap and walk away from something or a district that you feel is home. And I just spoke with a friend and she is the Dean of the Journalism Department at UC Berkeley and her address to Dartmouth as well as Berkeley was all around quitting.
[00:10:05] Olivia: And how in the world do you know when quitting is the right decision and to walk away from something? And she speaks to wise seeing, wise being, and wise effort. And when you put those that you love at the center of the decision that you're making, and when you want something more than what you're living, that's wise seeing, wise being, wise effort.
[00:10:29] Olivia: This is a journey. What a gift for your children as well to see the world. What are things you're noticing about education in Denmark?
[00:10:39] Pernille: Well, I think, I mean, especially because I've been on the inside for so long and now, I sit totally on the outside. You know, when you think about teaching jobs, I applied for teaching jobs, didn't even get a single interview, you know, it's just they're looking for different things and you're like, I thought I was a decent teacher. Never mind.
[00:10:56] Pernille: So, it was a good self-esteem check. But I think sitting as a parent, you know, I think one of the hardest things in America is just the self-sacrifice culture that has completely permeated teaching, right? The whole hero narrative, the whole, like, you're supposed to sacrifice until you have nothing left because only then have you done enough for the children in your care.
[00:11:17] Pernille: That doesn't exist in Denmark. There are some very, very healthy boundaries within education. Of course, there are some teachers who, you know, throw the boundaries out the window because that's what they choose to do, but it's been fascinating navigating with my own kids of just like trying to set up a meeting with teachers.
[00:11:35] Pernille: And even though they were the ones that were like: Hey, let's get together. They were like: Okay, 2 o'clock on Tuesday, and we're done at 3, because this is our scheduled meeting time. And there's no other time. So, if you want that meeting, you better show up. But I also just think about there's just been so much cross-collaboration from day one.
[00:11:54] Pernille: My kids have already had STEAM weeks about sustainability. They do all of these walking field trips, even just the whole balance between life and school or home and school. You know, they bike to school, they leave so they're there by eight. And the longest day that they have one day a week is till 2:15.
[00:12:12] Pernille: My youngest, Augustine, came home after the first day, and she's like, and then we had snack, and then we went outside, and then we had another snack, and then we had break again, and then we had break again, you know, I mean, so there's a really distinct focus here on child welfare, and then the decisions are very much driven by what's best mentally for children, as well as the adults that are in the system, and then we have a firm belief that the growth will happen, that if kids are okay, if the adults are okay, then the academic gains will happen.
[00:12:47] Pernille: And I think we like to think that we do that in America, but we're really not sitting in a position to do that often because we have standardized testing, we have all of these requirements. But I also think from my own kids, just the way the whole school feels. I know, uh, my daughter Ida came home a couple of days in and she's like: Mom, they don't lock the doors. We can just walk in and out.
[00:13:06] Pernille: And because we had told them, you know, when we started talking about moving on a trial basis to Denmark. They were not excited. They were like: What? And we're trying to explain the benefits and how it's going to be great for their future and it'll secure their already Danish citizens, but it'll secure their Danish citizenship and all these things.
[00:13:26] Pernille: They did not care. And one of the things that we brought up as well was it's a crazy thing, but we are worried about school shootings and shootings in general and violence in general, and that Denmark was safer. And I think that's really hard for a kid to understand, especially a kid that's grown up with lockdowns being a normal part of their school.
[00:13:46] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:13:47] Pernille: And so, the fact, you know, with like, hang on, they don't lock the doors. I think made a really big impression on her as far as like, okay, this is safe in a whole different way. And I even think about that. We live in a fairly big city and my kids get home and they get on their bike and off they go.
[00:14:05] Olivia: It's the dream, right? And even though there's so much that's not sure yet, just that comfort of knowing there's familiarity. I would say the notion of a globally connected classroom, the level of student inquiry and passion that comes from that idea is so beautiful. Our children would have a lot more time to feel empowered and to get their voices out there in the world.
[00:14:35] Olivia: If everyone thought this way - to speak to global citizenry of the global connected classroom mission quote from the book: To create a classroom where students truly feel that they are citizens of the world, that their voices matter, that what they do matters not just to each other but to people they will never meet in person.
[00:14:58] Olivia: Yeah Right. So global citizenry, how would you define that for listeners?
[00:15:03] Pernille: That book was written, I don't know, six years ago or so, and as I've evolved, so has my thinking about that too. I was trying to explain this to some of my colleagues here in Denmark that in America we have to out of necessity be very focused on America because America is so large.
[00:15:17] Pernille: And so, it's kind of hard to go beyond American borders at times when so many things are happening in the states surrounding you or in the county surrounding you. So now when I think about the global citizens, I think for me, the lens is truly this idea of yes, I can affect change globally, but also how can I look at situations that are happening around the world and connecting them to situations that are happening within my own local space?
[00:15:42] Pernille: How can we create activist opportunities for those kids who want those opportunities so that we're not always going out in the world to try to solve other people's problems, right? We're so good about that. Let me come and save you. But instead going, okay, I see parallels between this event happening in another country that really feels very foreign from my experience.
[00:16:04] Pernille: But wait a minute. It's actually quite similar to this situation that we're sitting with. And so, when I think about global citizens now, it’s so much more about seeing the connections between us. And for example, my own kids, right? Doing scene weeks on sustainability. They were talking about wind power and water filters and all of those things.
[00:16:21] Pernille: And I think about one of the Global Read Aloud books right now, that's talking about the water scarcity in India, the book Thirstby Varsha Bajaj, which is so incredible, right? Like they're making the connections that what we do here in Denmark, even though we sit with you know, lots of water and very clean water and water access to everybody that the decisions that we make in this tiny little nation affect other people that didn't have a say.
[00:16:46] Pernille: And so, when I think about global citizenry, how can we use situations in other countries in order to shine a light on the issues and the inequities that we have within our own space? I think that's really, really powerful. And of course, it's also for kids to consistently go: Who's voices are missing? Who gets to tell the story of these other nations, or even my local community? Who gets to be featured in the newspaper articles? You know, I know as a teacher, we often run into that when people talk about education, right?
[00:17:17] Pernille: It's been interesting to watch my husband's district and the district that my own kids went to in Madison, Wisconsin, you know, their superintendent was interviewed about the teacher shortage, which I don't think it's a teacher shortage. I think it's a rate condition and wage shortage.
[00:17:31] Olivia: Yes.
[00:17:32] Pernille: But a week before school, they were still missing 400 teachers.
[00:17:35] Olivia: Oh my gosh.
[00:17:36] Pernille: Crazy.
[00:17:36] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:17:37] Pernille: And he was quoted in this viral Washington Post article about what we have calendars, right? That that's going to retain people. We have small gifts, and that entire article didn't have a single in classroom educator. It was all administration. And so, I think about, we're quick to say, how can we activate student voices?
[00:17:58] Pernille: How can we also activate the adult voices? So, we say: Who's not sitting at the table? And why are they not?
[00:18:04] Olivia: Yes.
[00:18:04] Pernille: Why are they not being invited into that space?
[00:18:08] Olivia: And how can we make it safe? Because I think a lot of educators don't feel comfortable saying exactly what they think they feel in fear. It's fear of losing their job. And teachers don't make tons of money as we all know.
[00:18:21] Olivia: And so why are we staying in this role if it feels like we don't have voice and really in my mind, everything we want to see our students living, breathing in a classroom should be modeled by the adults that they're surrounded by. And it's scary when adults feel like their voices are quelled.
[00:18:43] Pernille: And they are in so many ways, right?
[00:18:45] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:18:45] Pernille: Educators are so untrusted in their adult decisions. Like, I think about just again with the whole teacher dress code decision broke out in the U.S. again and we earned jean days. What I wear, right, doesn't show you how intelligent or how professional I am. And I just think about that. I remember sitting in an HR presentation and being told you can never post any kind of private social media where you're at a party, for example.
[00:19:11] Pernille: And I was like, this is insane. None of that can be posted because somebody might see it and then assume that you are unfit to take care of their child. So, when we talk about cultural differences, right, like That's also a huge cultural difference. That's just not a thing here in Denmark, because there is that great distinction between the person that stands and cares for my child versus the person that has a life outside of school.
[00:19:37] Pernille: And so as we're inviting students to live in the space, the way that they are and making space for kids, the way that they're showing up, how are we also creating environments where teachers and educators, anyone attached to kids also feel like they can live their truth, I think about, who would want to be an educator when you're under a gag order, or when you're not even trusted to make your own dress code decisions, or you can't actually have any say over curriculum or the experiences, or you're under such a gag order that you can't change your teaching in order to fit the needs of the kids because that's not following something to fidelity.
[00:20:13] Pernille: And then we add on social inequity and racist history and all of those components on top, like,
[00:20:19] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Pernille: Wow. It's a lot.
[00:20:22] Olivia: There's no easy answer, but there are many, many possible solutions and many adults out there that are trying to speak for those whose voices are unheard right now. One of the things I think is critical about your work with global collaboration is the notion that the learning experiences have to involve collaboration, connection, and creation.
[00:20:48] Olivia: And something you said, it was, I think one sentence that we have to shift the notion of students as learners to students as creators. And then all of that is connected to the notion of an authentic audience. Would you speak to that? How do you define, collaborate, connect, create in conjunction with authentic audiences?
[00:21:08] Pernille: Yeah, I mean, and of course I started on my journey kind of going like, who will pay attention to my kids, right?
[00:21:15] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Pernille: Because our own classroom walls were the refrigerators of their homes, right?
[00:21:20] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:21:08] Pernille: The kids didn't care that their stuff was in the hallway.
[00:21:22] Olivia: No!
[00:21:22] Pernille: In fact, they hated it, right?
[00:21:24] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Pernille: And so, thinking about will this process. Or how will this process grow and become more than it is the minute that we've infused it with some sort of collaboration that goes beyond our own classroom.
[00:21:36] Pernille: But in order to do that, you also have to foster a sense of collaboration within the community. Right? And so I think it's hard to throw kids into global collaboration if you haven't built the trust in your own community.
[00:20:45] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:21:46] Pernille: But when we then start to create purposes where they see the impact that their work is having or where they have a real-time reaction from someone else through whatever tool you're using to do it, whether it's a letter or Twitter or some sort of video call, I think then they can start to see the impact that they potentially can have on other human beings. Because I've taught middle school for the last eight years and most of them have cell phones and are massive both consumers and producers of social media.
[00:22:15] Pernille: But if you ask them, how would you like to impact others? It's often something they haven't thought about. They're thinking very much in the immediate, like, well, I want people to like this post or I want people to comment or people to think it's cool. But it's like, yeah, but have you also thought about the broader implications about like, okay, you're posting it at this time.
[00:22:33] Pernille: And how is that going to be met by other people? So, you can have those conversations, or you can put them in situations where they can see that it has an impact. I think about the idea of student voice too, because I also want to make sure that it's the authentic time to do it. If you're sitting and writing super personal things, that's probably not the time to sit and go, okay, now you're going to share it with other people that you don't know and don't have a trusted relationship with.
[00:22:58] Pernille: So, I think with anything with global collaboration, in order to transfer power to kids, we also make it very clear from the beginning, this is going to be shared or worked with by others so that kids can choose how they show up and how much they share. Because I think sometimes, we kind of threw it at the end and we're like, oh, by the way, this is so exciting.
[00:23:19] Pernille: You're actually going to be performing your pieces and the kids are like: Wait a minute, I would have created something totally different had I known that this was the end goal.
[00:23:28] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:23:28] Pernille: So, I think when we talk about co-creation of spaces, that's another component to that sometimes kids don't want to share, and we need to respect that.
[00:23:36] Pernille: And I don't think it's educators we've done a good enough job of respecting consent and boundaries within our own spaces. I think about when we give a survey to kids, right? And we're like, why aren't you answering me? Or this isn't good enough. Give me something deeper. And it's like, whoa, we don't have the right to do that.
[00:23:53] Pernille: We can invite them into the conversation and say, I would love to hear more about your opinion, but we really can't demand the way that we've done for so many years.
[00:24:02] Olivia: That idea around the project, knowing where you're going before you ever kick anything off with the students so you can tell them right out of the gate.
[00:24:11] Olivia: I was just working in a classroom of juniors, and we had done planning over the summer with a cohort of ELA teachers and the teacher, he was so excited about the end project and who the authentic audience was going to be. I think he thought that excitement would convey to all of the juniors in his class.
[00:24:32] Olivia: And he was really bummed when one of his students that is a thriving writer was like: What do you mean? I have to create a picture book for kindergartners, and she was like, no, no, no, that's not what I want to do. And he came back to me. He's like: She's not excited about the audience. And so, we'll let her have her own audience, if what she wants to convey is different.
[00:24:52] Olivia: And he's like: I can do that? I said: Well, yes, that's what we should do! And so, I think sometimes it's just having permission as an educator to know, right?
[00:25:02] Pernille: Yes! So huge!
[00:25:02] Olivia: You can, you are meeting your students where they are with their comfort level. And that example, she actually wanted to have a completely different audience and she had a really good reason why.
[00:25:14] Olivia: And so, if, if we're actually open to listening to our students, they really have awesome reasons for why they're behaving. They're thinking there's always something behind the choice. Looking at the idea of making sure your students are actually ready to work with others before you kick this off. Could you share some ideas of how educators could get this work brewing?
[00:25:39] Olivia: Yes, you want to tell them about the work in the audience, but how do you make sure they're even ready for that collaboration?
[00:25:45] Pernille: Well, I think you start out by having them collaborate within your own space. Right?
[00:25:49] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:25:49] Pernille: And I think that also requires that we really let loose, and we let kids make terrible decisions. I think so often we swoop in no matter their age and quickly set up boundaries as far as like: Oh, no, I'm not going to have you work with your, with your closest friend or no, I'm not going to have you work out here. Rather than going: Okay. Yeah. Go work with your closest friend. And then if it doesn't work, let's pick up the pieces and let's talk about why it didn't work. Should we change the process?
[00:26:15] Pernille: And sometimes kids are like: I think it worked great. And you're like: Okay, we have different opinions. Let's talk about what great looks like versus what maybe happened here.
[00:26:23] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:26:23] Pernille: But I also think it's important to sometimes try it out in small ways, whether it's, we're going to do a Kahoot contest against another class or even collaborating within your own space, right? Like I'm going to take you physically into another classroom and I'm going to have you work together together just to see how do people show up in these spaces. But I think one of the number one thing’s that you can do as a teacher besides having these small collaborative opportunities in a lot of ways is bringing kids into the creation process.
[00:26:53] Pernille: I did that just last year. I had two different paths. One was we're going to create a Ted talk or we're going to write nonfiction picture books. The standards were going to be covered and we're the same, but the products were clearly very, very different. And I brought both ideas in front of my students and I was like: Talk me through this. What excites you? What is making you not want to come to English class?
[00:27:12] Pernille: Here are different potentialities, right? Like pathways, et cetera. And it was fascinating to step aside, uh, once again, because it's something I've done a million times, but to step aside and see them work it out amongst themselves. It was so clear that after they'd had 10, 15 minutes, we had a pretty clear path of what we wanted to do.
[00:27:32] Pernille: And at that point, too, I had introduced the idea of, hey, we're going to be doing market research with first graders. And then in the end. I would like to share your finished product with first graders, not only for them to be excited about, but also to give you feedback. And of course, some kids were like, I don't want to do that.
[00:27:50] Pernille: And then we talked about that because I think that's also super important. Like you just said, right? Okay. What would you like to do? And so, I've had kids then go, well, can I just share it with a couple of people or can you just be my audience? Absolutely.
[00:28:02] Olivia: Yes.
[00:28:02] Pernille: You know, I think that's something we have to respect. So, for teachers who are sitting there going: How do I do this? Sounds great. You know, sign me up. First of all, also think about where can you fit it in naturally so it's replacing something or extending something rather than one more thing. That's also why I love a project like the Global Read Aloud or other collaborative projects that are out there because they're easy projects where you just have to show up.
[00:28:25] Olivia: Yes.
[00:28:25] Pernille: And everything is handed to you versus like creating your own project and then all of a sudden, you're the one sitting and moving all of the pieces around. But also, don't feel bad if it doesn't work. I've had to stop collaborative projects that just didn't turn out and great learning opportunity for me and for the students of going okay we have this vision of like this great creation process.
[00:28:49] Pernille: It didn't work. Why not? And often it was like, well, we came at it from different angles. We had different kind of ideas of what success was going to look like. And so, I think also sitting down with your students and saying: What is done going to be, you know, what's that going to look like? What is success going to look like? How are you going to share the power over the project? Who's going to take care of what, who's going to be your accountability partner for all of this is really important.
[00:29:14] Olivia: I interviewed Sarah Zerwin, who wrote the book Point-Less. Both of your messages, or what you're saying right now, vibes because it's all around the process and trusting students to be empowered by their own voices.
[00:29:28] Olivia: But I want to circle back to something you said. You're walking in my mind because I actually said: How do the audiences provide students with feedback in my notes?
[00:29:37] Olivia: And there's a quote, if you don't mind me reading of your words: The very purpose of assessment is for students to receive feedback that they can use to determine their own learning goals. We need to provide feedback that goes beyond what students do wrong or are missing on a particular assignment, and instead provide information about what they need to work on as learners. That means feedback must be a continuous process that comes from multiple sources.
[00:30:05] Olivia: I think so many educators think feedback comes from us, the all-knowing beings as adults. But let's scoop up those first graders. Let's hear what they think. Right.
[00:30:14] Pernille: Yeah.
[00:30:14] Olivia: They're going to be brutally honest in a lot of good ways.
[00:30:18] Pernille: Yeah, exactly. Like you want to get a seventh grader to actually do spell check.
[00:30:22] Pernille: You put their work in front of a first grader. Who's like: Don't you know about commas or periods? But I think about that. That's so often like the feedback comes from us because we're the ultimate authority in the room. Whereas what about the feedback from their peers? Right? I talked a lot with my students about finding your people, who are the people you trust to put your product in the hands of? So that they can go in and not just do the: Wow, this is really cool!
[00:30:45] Olivia: No! But be honest.
[00:30:46] Pernille: This doesn’t make sense right here. Or what were you trying to get to here? And of course, in the beginning students, because they're so darn nice. Either they're like, everything is great. I've got no ideas. Or they're like: I don't know what to say. I don't want to take a part in this. Right? And then slowly you start to kind of build that rapport and you can do it in really short projects so that they can scale up to the longer ones.
[00:31:09] Pernille: So, I think about like our nonfiction picture book project, which I love so much. They sat in teams; they had accountability partners and we've worked with that through the year. I had specific class times for that collaboration to happen. It also happened naturally, and I got out of the way. And when we think about creation and sharing power and presenting inquiry opportunities, which is really what all of this is, right?
[00:31:35] Pernille: It's inquiry into the world around you. We also need to realize that we're not the most significant person in the room. And the knowledge that we pass on is really just a steppingstone for them to then go on. And of course, you're going to have kids that are like: No, thank you. I'm not interested whether it's by choice or by circumstance, right?
[00:31:54] Pernille: Maybe they're sitting in a mental space where they're not in a place. to take this massive journey out into the world. Okay. They come and they work with you in a much more traditional way.
[00:32:03] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:32:04] Pernille: But in order for that to happen, then we need to give more freedom to the rest of the kids that then can sit and pursue. When I talk to administrators a lot, and we talk about choice, I so often hear from administrators and they say: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, my staff knows. They know that they can do independent reading, right? They know that they can do inquiry. It would be so cool. And I was like: When's the last time you told them.
[00:32:25] Pernille: I'm sure I did. No, seriously. When is the last time that you laid out the freedom that they have? Because unless it's specifically told to us, we're going to start assuming that we don't have it.
[00:32:38] Olivia: Yes.
[00:32:38] Pernille: And so often in working with some districts, you can see the reverberation of really poor administrative decisions after the administrator has left because the new administrator hasn't come in and said that was a terrible policy. Here's the new way forward. And so I feel like sometimes when I'm brought into school districts, sometimes it's just more as like not a mediator, but almost like a puzzle piece bringer and being like: Wait a minute. The reason why you're fantastic educators are doing this is because they're operating under this mode of rules and these assumptions.
[00:33:09] Pernille: And the same thing happens in our classroom. Right? So, it's really just taking what I do with kids. As far as how is school done and what is learning look like and blowing that up with them.
[00:33:18] Olivia: That example around administrators, like when is the last time you told them that there's this freedom? When is the last time that the messiness of teaching is acknowledged? And you have to keep going back and rethinking and retooling. One of the projects you're so well known for is the Global Read Aloud.
[00:33:38] Olivia: It's unimaginable to me that everyone doesn't already know on six continents as listeners, but can you describe what is the Global Read Aloud? When does it happen? I know it's happening right now. And how has it evolved since its creation in 2010?
[00:33:56] Pernille: Well, I think that the Global Read Aloud is a really good mirror of my own evolution as a teacher.
[00:34:01] Pernille: You know, it started as a very personal project all the way back in 2010 of this idea of can we make a global book club, and can we use whatever technology tools that we have in order to share our thoughts? Because I knew at that time, I was two years into my teaching career that I wanted to connect my students with others, but I had no idea how to do that.
[00:34:21] Pernille: And I'm an introvert, so it felt very awkward to like, barge into somebody else's educational space and be like, yeah, let's collaborate. Right? And so, I was like, well, how do I strike up conversations with others through books? I love books. It's kind of like, I take the train now every morning. I love it.
[00:34:39] Pernille: And I'll see somebody reading. And if it's a book, you know, and if you catch their eye. But the true origin story is driving on a summer night and listening to NPR with my husband, and I heard Neil Gaiman, and so I cranked it up because I love Neil Gaiman, and they were talking about American Gods being read as a one book, one world on Twitter, and it was this global book club using a hashtag for adults, obviously, and I turned to my husband, and I was like, somebody should do that for kids, and he was like: Well, why don't you? He swears it never happened that he never said that, but I truly think it was so good because I had no idea what it would become.
[00:35:14] Pernille: And I've said this before, if I knew how big it would have become, I would have never done it because I would have been paralyzed as far as who am I to try to create this project. And I think we do that often in education when we have an idea, who am I to try this? Who am I to break the mold? Who am I to step outside of the line or step outside of the box?
[00:35:34] Pernille: And I think we do it whether we're new or veterans, I think sometimes even more so as veterans. We're good to be like, well, I shouldn't be the one rocking the boat. I'm here now to keep the ship steady.
[00:35:43] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:35:44] Pernille: And so, it really just started that one year, 4 weeks. We read The Little Prince. I just picked the book. We did a pseudo-vote, but I already knew I wanted to read The Little Prince. And we shared drawings and people posted to the blog. The original Global Read Aloud blog, and it was amazing. And what I first thought was going to happen was that, uh, through the shared read aloud where we followed the same schedule at that time over four weeks, I thought it was going to be really eye-opening for kids how different people were.
[00:36:10] Pernille: That even though we were coming together around this shared text, they were going to really be blown away by like: Oh, this kid is so different than me. But of course, my students, as always, were the best teachers and what they were blown away by were the similarities. And it was interesting, right, because the global part was a little, little sketchy the first year.
[00:36:28] Pernille: I think it was, you know, North America and then maybe like one person from Australia or something like that, you know, made it further. But, uh, you know, dream big. And I remember my students very vividly. They drew pictures. I had them draw the snake eating the elephant, of course, because I was like how I didn't show them the drawing.
[00:36:46] Pernille: And I was like, how would you interpret it? And then the kid went: That kid drew the same drawing that I did. Like, that's crazy. And that was the power. That was there from the beginning was this idea of hang on, we can use a book as our introduction, but really what it comes down to is that now we have the introduction.
[00:37:05] Pernille: Now we know each other and even though we are so different in both very basic ways, but also maybe in personality and in human ways, we can still have this shared experience. I didn't think it was going to be anything after that, but the people who were a part of it were kind of like: When are we going to do it again?
[00:37:21] Olivia: Ah. That’s awesome.
[00:37:21] Pernille: And I'm like, that was a ton of work. And they're like: How about next year? And so, then it slowly just took on a life of its own as far as the books. Now, now there are four books, so you can kind of pick and choose your age group. Plus, a picture book creator. So, if you don't want to do a chapter book read aloud over the six weeks that it is now, you can do this creator and it's in one picture book a week, which has been super lovely because that category often has librarians.
[00:37:46] Pernille: It has little kids. It has university students. I've done it with my middle schoolers when I didn't feel like I could make the space for a read aloud.
[00:37:53] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:37:54] Pernille: Sometimes the authors are part of it. Katherine Applegate, when we read The One and Only Ivan, this was before it won the Newberry, was actually the one that reached out to me and she was like: Can I participate?
[00:38:05] Pernille: And I was like, of course. I had never thought of reaching out to the authors because again, it was like a boundary thing where I'm using your book and I love it so much, but I'm not expecting any of your time to be dedicated. And so, every year the authors know specifically the night before and I tell them more as a warning of like, they just get inundated on social media, but I just want you to know and if you want to participate, you can, but don't feel any pressure.
[00:38:32] Pernille: It's just been really amazing. And I think the evolution of the Global Read Aloud has very much been my own evolution as a teacher of reading and of kids and of recognizing the power that read aloud has. When I first started, as far as the books that were chosen where they were just like really great read alouds.
[00:38:51] Pernille: And that was kind of like the scope of my lens, right? It was very much, oh, as long as the kids will be into it, then. Okay, great. And the books were beautiful. And then as my own awakening happened much too late, but it happened nevertheless about global literacy and just thinking about who are the voices that are so often missing?
[00:39:14] Pernille: How can we activate knowledge and kids that they might not be exposed to? Then you start to see the book selections become much more specific as far as: Is it truly that we have some global representation within our authors?
[00:39:27] Olivia: Yes.
[00:39:27] Pernille: But also thinking about whose voices have been missing and how can we now put this global lens on it? I think one of the hard things about the Global Read Aloud is because the books have to be published in the United States. It's still the, the biggest proponent of people is still in the U.S., and it takes a lot of copies for the Global Read Aloud in order for people to be able to have the books and also for the books to be shipped around the world.
[00:39:51] Olivia: Yes.
[00:39:51] Pernille: And so, while there are some amazing independent books out there, often their publishers cannot handle the distribution that has to be able to happen for the Global Read Aloud. And so, I often have to explain that to people when they're like, well, why didn't you pick this one amazing African author, for example, or someone from South Africa or something like that.
[00:40:09] Pernille: And it's like, that book is not accessible anywhere in the United States or people have to pay $60 for a copy. That means that so many people will not be able to do it and it's not going to work. And so, it's an interesting dilemma to sit in because especially now being back in Denmark and reading just some incredible Danish authors where I'm like, Oh, this would be so cool.
[00:40:31] Pernille: They haven't been published in English.
[00:40:33] Olivia: Yeah. I was going to ask you; you've already spoken to some of it. How long does it take you to choose the books you choose? And I wouldn't even have considered the number of copies or the publishing and the language. That's another obstacle.
[00:40:47] Pernille: Right. And I do try to find books where they have plans for, for example, publishing them in Spanish or something like that.
[00:40:53] Pernille: But even then, because the focus has often been on emphasizing newer authors or authors that maybe could benefit from a broader platform because their work is just so amazing. You know, it also sometimes puts some limitations on it. I am always reading for the Global Read Aloud. Even the minute I make it official, I want to die on the inside because I'm like ready to vomit because, you know, of course some people hate it.
[00:41:16] Olivia: It's so much pressure. Yeah.
[00:41:18] Pernille: Yeah. And, and some people are like: That's a terrible book. I'm not going to do it. And then I think sometimes people also forget that it's like me, like I'm it,
[00:41:25] Olivia: You're, you're a person.
[00:41:26] Pernille: Yeah. I'm the one that gets all the email. Like, I don't have a team. There's nobody sitting and checking my email. And they'll send some pretty awful emails. Being with the choice, and of course, as most of the time is the case, right? It's the people with the negatives that will, that will reach out, not the ones going: Oh my God, that's going to be amazing. But no, so I'm always reading for the Global Read Aloud. And sometimes it's a book that I have read, and I've really liked, but I didn't consider it.
[00:41:52] Pernille: But then it keeps popping up in my head and where I'm like, okay, can we make that work? I think about David Robertson's Barren Grounds, which was so phenomenal as a read aloud and opened up some really phenomenal conversations in my own classroom. When I first read it, I loved David's work and I was like, oh yeah, that'd be really good.
[00:42:08] Pernille: But it wasn't until later that I was like, wait a minute, I'm sitting here trying to figure out the middle school choice. Duh. I read it a while ago, so I do keep a little secret post it note where I jot down ideas. I think it's also hard, especially sometimes with a picture book authors, because they need to have at least six books published.
[00:42:26] Olivia: Okay.
[00:42:27] Pernille: And they need to still be in print. Amy Krouse Rosenthal was the choice one year, and she did a lot of stuff behind the scenes. It was unfortunately also the year that she was diagnosed with cancer, and then of course later passed.
[00:42:39] Olivia: Devastating.
[00:42:39] Pernille: Which was so awful because she was just an incredible person. But I hadn't realized that when I picked some of the specific books, we were going to do that, they were out of print. And so, all of a sudden people were scrambling, right, going like: I can't even get this book. Can someone share a copy? And finally, we just had to say: Pick another book and find somebody else who's doing that book and we'll make it work that way. So, it's definitely been a growing process, but I think the foundation of it has stayed the same.
[00:43:04] Pernille: It's meant to be books that start broader conversations and hopefully bring in things that we hadn't considered before and that allow us to sit in community with other people and go let's uncover this together. I also love when we can do activism as part of it. I've been watching kids building projects and coming up with ideas and I think that that's such a beautiful thing.
[00:43:26] Olivia: Something that I admire about you, and I actually struggle with working with school districts is the notion of kids getting their voices out through blogging. And a lot of the districts that I work with have something called 2-D Compliance. It's in place to protect our children from being unsafe out there in the world.
[00:43:45] Olivia: And yet, it really squanders a lot of opportunities for educators to use resources. I think of your use of blogging as an adult Blogging Through the Fourth Dimension. Your blogs rock my world. It's a form of connection as a mom and just people living out there in the educational universe, but also your use of blogging with students.
[00:44:08] Olivia: There's a quote from the book: The reason we invest our time year after year is because blogging provides students with a portal to share their views and opinions with the rest of the world. It also provides them with a protected space where they can explore their identities and share the pieces that define them with a larger audience around the globe.
[00:44:29] Olivia: So, I'd love for listeners to better understand how do you use blogging with your students so they can discuss the Global Read Aloud books, but also just get their writing and thinking out there in the universe.
[00:44:42] Pernille: Yeah. So, it's actually been a few years since I, since I stopped using blogging with kids, because I found that as kids were more online, they craved more private writing, if that makes sense.
[00:44:54] Olivia: Ah! It does.
[00:44:54] Pernille: And so, when I first started with blogging with kids. You know, social media was not so pervasive. Neither were cell phones as far as just like kids having access to them. I mean, I remember we started blogging with my one teacher computer in the room and circling kids through it.
[00:45:10] Pernille: But there was also this incredible need for kids to start expressing their voices because they were completely being left out of any educational decisions. And kids’ decisions in general and discussions. So, I love blogging for so many years because what the tools also started being developed as was to give the kids power over who their audience was. It always was choice, right? I might put them down into a blog and say: Hey, you can blog about this one question that I had. And it was all sorts of stuff.
[00:45:39] Pernille: I remember once I asked kids: How do you know who the bad kids are? And just their answers, just daggers in the heart, right? It came from a classroom discussion. It wasn't me like being like: Oh, there are bad students. I don't believe that there are bad students.
[00:45:53] Olivia: I know you don't.
[00:45:54] Pernille: Bad days. And sometimes those bad days last years. But it was just a way for kids to sit and have a voice and really also have their words because then I could use my social media platform to spread their words further. And they started then also reaching out through me, of course, as facilitator, but talking to other teachers and trying to get teachers to change their perspective.
[00:46:15] Pernille: So trying to cut myself out as the middleman and instead saying: Don't take it from me here or what kids want to know. But they could also be like: No, I don't want to do your stupid prompt. I want to write, I want to write a blog about whatever, or I want to create a story. And so, for some of my students, too, especially in the early parts of social media, before it was so common, it really was a way for them to go out and connect with other people.
[00:46:38] Pernille: And especially kids who didn't feel like they were making connections within their space.
[00:46:42] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:46:42] Pernille: But it also allowed them to show sides of themselves that maybe their local community didn't know. And I remember like one kid in particular was a beautiful writer, but because other students had kind of written them off as like the weird kid that didn't, you know, just all the mean middle school stuff, no one ever gave him a chance to express that.
[00:47:04] Pernille: But because I also gave them time to go in and read each other's blogs, some kids really walked away and were quite blown away. And so, I think whether it's blogging or whether it's sitting and sharing Google Docs or whether it's handwriting stories and then being brave enough to share a segment of them or whatever, I think what it means for me is that we give kids a place to creatively express who they are and the message that they want to share with the world.
[00:47:29] Pernille: And then we also recognize, and my good friend Raden is always like, maybe kids don't want to be so serious all the time. Also give them space for that. Because I think when the world feels like it's on fire, which I think it, it feels like a lot of the time-
[00:47:44] Olivia: It does, yeah.
[00:47:44] Pernille: I think we're quick to be like, kids are the answer. Kids are the future and kids are carrying all that. They're living in the burning home, right?
[00:47:44] Olivia: Yes! Yes!
[00:47:54] Pernille: And so sometimes. They don't want to write about all of the inequity that they see, or, you know, all of the things that we want them to go out and change. Sometimes they want to write about unicorns going on quests and with their friends.
[00:48:07] Olivia: Well, Pernille though, wait, it's, there's that saying: Don't put an adult head on a child's shoulders.
[00:48:12] Pernille: Yes, exactly. And so, I think it's all about inviting them in. And that's also something like the inquiry projects that we do. I think it's really good for kids. Like I said, one of the inquiry questions we did last year was, you know: Who gets to live the American dream?
[00:48:26] Pernille: And of course, we have to start with what is the American dream?
[00:48:29] Olivia: Of course. Yeah.
[00:48:29] Pernille: And then kids were learning things and debating. And at the end of it, several kids were like, this was the most depressing unit I have ever done. And I felt that so deeply because it really was, right? Because most kids were like: Well, no, most people don't get to live the American dream.
[00:48:46] Pernille: And I was like: Yeah, I'm so sorry.
[00:48:48] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:48:48] Pernille: But, and so then we also switched gears, right? We jumped into something completely different. That wasn't so hopeless in a way.
[00:48:57] Olivia: Yeah. And I think too, you are so selfless with sharing your book recommendations, yourself on social, and you have such a wide reach. And I need to just pause because it was gut-wrenching as someone that follows you to see your post.
[00:49:18] Olivia: I think it was Thursday or Friday last week, and it bothered me. I can't imagine how that felt, the violation for listeners to understand the words, two-step authentication has a whole new meaning for you. It's crazy. And I went back to all of my social accounts and double checked. Will you share what happened last week?
[00:49:39] Pernille: Yeah. Yeah. So I have a beautiful, flexible job. It allows me to work from home whenever I need to. And I happen to be at home. got one of those emails, you know, from Instagram that was like: Oh, someone changed your email. And I was like, what is this now? And I, and I was like, Oh, I'm sure it's just a whatever kind of email.
[00:49:56] Pernille: And, uh, went to log into my Instagram, which I use all the time. It has almost 3000 posts, right? Like it's where I've recommended books for years. I have connections with my former students, uh, obviously people all around the world, just moving to Denmark. I was just making connections with people here in Denmark and they could go in and see who is this crazy person and everything was gone.
[00:50:18] Pernille: My username, I tried my cell phone, I tried my email, nothing. User can't be found. Went back in my email and there was an email from a hacker saying, we have your account and we're holding at ransom.
[00:50:27] Olivia: It's crazy.
[00:50:28] Pernille: And I was like, there's no way, uh, you know, cause you hear about it all the time. So, I emailed them back. Cause they were like: If you want it back, email us back. And I did. And they're like: We want $2,000 in Bitcoin. And at that point, I was just like. What is this craziness?
[00:50:43] Olivia: It’s a nightmare.
[00:50:43] Pernille: It was! And like, I don't have $2,000 in Bitcoin. And also, as my husband pointed out, he was like: Who says that they're going to give it back to you. If even if you did, right? There's no guarantee here. They already hacked your account. And so, um, I spent a long time, first of all, trying to get ahold of Instagram, but it turns out when you have been hacked and deleted, Instagram doesn't think you exist. And so, there's no way of reaching Instagram in any way.
[00:51:09] Pernille: And I even had people who did have secret ways of contacting Instagram. They were like, yeah, we can't do anything because like she's deleted. Even though you can still find, you know, the ghosts are still out there. And my Twitter feed has all of my Instagram posts and all of that.
[00:51:24] Olivia: Right.
[00:51:25] Pernille: And so, in the angry sadness, you also feel stupid because you're like, why am I so sad? It's a social media profile.
[00:51:32] Olivia: No, it's your investment.
[00:51:33] Pernille: My kids are okay, right? But it was an incredible violation also because as I'm going back and forth with this hacker, and I was like: Why did you target me? And they're like: It's not personal. This is just a business. Right?
[00:51:44] Olivia: But it's very personal.
[00:51:45] Pernille: It is very personal. Right? But they like cast as big of a net as they can. And so, after 40-some emails, I got them negotiated down to $200. And finally late that night, I was like, okay, I'm going to pay the $200 because I really want my account back. I really want the photos of my kids, the recommendations, the videos of my classroom that I don't have saved anywhere.
[00:52:08] Pernille: And this was also after I'd gone through and secured all my accounts. So, I paid it and then I got an email saying, uh, this means you can pay more and, uh, we want more money. And so, we're done. So, Friday I was like, okay, I guess I'm starting over. Um. And it's, uh, yeah, yeah, it's been really hard, and it seems so dumb, but it's, it's who you are.
[00:52:32] Pernille: And, and for anyone who has really worked on trying to establish global connections, you know how hard it is to build these connections with people and who follows you. And I think of authors who have followed me since before they were big deals, you know, they're not going to follow me now because they're not going to notice that my account is gone. And so, I can't like talk so, them in the way that I have.
[00:52:53] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:52:53] Pernille: And someone else said too, they were like: I'm so sad because I've used your resources and I go back and I use them. And I was like: I do too. Especially now sitting in Denmark I don't have access to books in the same way that I did in the States.
[00:53:07] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:53:07] Pernille: And so, when I'm being asked for recommendations or pulling books for units or whatever I was heavily reliant on the years of pictures.
[00:53:15] Olivia: Of course. Yeah.
[00:53:16] Pernille: And going in and reading descriptions. So, I haven't heard from them in a couple of days. They did come back a couple of times and were like: Well, aren't you going to pay? And I was like: No, I'm not.
[00:53:25] Olivia: Well, you are beloved. And we had already connected about doing the interview. And I saw that, and it was such a gut punch.
[00:53:32] Olivia: I can't imagine the effect it had on you. And again, it's a social media account, but it's hours and hours that you have invested in the posts and people use your recommendations and you're thinking all over the world. It is a cautionary tale. If the folks that are pulling the strings behind the scam, if they only knew how awful. The impact it has. I don't care what the intent is. It's just so, it's so hurtful. Um, and it's good for our students to know. Yeah.
[00:54:05] Pernille: It is. And then I have two factor authentication turned on for most of my accounts, my Instagram account I just didn't, you know, you Google it, it's happening everywhere.
[00:54:13] Pernille: And like the hacker also said, you know: We've been doing this for years, so you can't outsmart us. And I think that that's also very true. It's a business that's here to stay. And so, I wish that companies like Meta would actually have ways to reach them. And somebody said that makes no sense. I can get better customer service going down to my local bakery than I can, you know, to this giant multi-billion company that makes money off of our data. Right?
[00:54:41] Olivia: Yeah. I want to wrap our conversation because you've been really gracious with your time. And there's a quote I want to speak to our call to action moving forward: We may assume that being great is something bestowed on others because of certain special talents or circumstances, but that's not always true. Becoming great often starts with making a small change that leads to another small change. Soon, all those small changes add up to a large change. Becoming great is a journey we decide to begin and then complete constantly reassessing and re-evaluating along the way.
[00:55:17] Olivia: Your recent blog post on change, I read it, I reread it, and you know, this work is hard.
[00:55:25] Olivia: It's hard when your Instagram account gets hacked. It's hard when you have no time for your family. It's hard when you have students that need you so, so much and you really don't have anything left to give yourself. How can we take steps to change our lives as educators when it feels so tough? What is our call to action that you can leave listeners with?
[00:55:48] Pernille: I think for me, it finally happened when I realized that no matter how much I worked, it was never going to be enough and that I had to get to the point of good enough.
[00:55:57] Olivia: Yeah, good enough.
[00:55:58] Pernille: And, and that I had to find my own humanity and be okay with knowing that there was always going to be more to do, but at some point, I had to also allow myself to self-preserve because otherwise there would be nothing left to give.
[00:56:13] Pernille: And when I think about the role model that we can be for students and for our own children, and for the people that we care about, I think also at some point we have to fight back against the system that is set up to completely bleed us dry.
[00:56:26] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:56:27] Pernille: I think about, I just, I think about all of the times that I said no to my own children in order to be more present for my school and how, when I, uh, put in my notice, um, I was replaced so quickly, just like we all will be. And so, I think it's okay to put up boundaries and work on not feeling guilt about it. But I also think that it's okay if you're in a stage of your life where you're like, I'm going to live and breathe education then to do it wholeheartedly.
[00:57:02] Pernille: But don't feel like you have to be a good teacher by sacrificing every single waking moment. I also think the more we can co-create with kids so that we don't have to sit at home. I think that was one of the biggest changes that I made and that forced me out of planning so much at home was simply because I said: Okay, from now on, I'm going to co-create with students. I'm going to assess with students. I'm going to write with students.
[00:57:27] Pernille: Rather than sitting and planning at home, all of a sudden, I could do those things. But we have to fight back because so many amazing teachers are leaving. I hope to come back to teaching at some point if I ever find another teaching job.
[00:57:41] Pernille: But at the same time, too, I also know that the burnout and it's not even burnout, right? Like it's a system that completely takes everything it can from us and then still turns around and says but give me more.
[00:57:55] Olivia: It's that demoralization. There's a book, Demoralized, and it speaks directly to - this is not burnout. This is demoralization and that we're going to keep coming back for more. It doesn't matter how loudly you're screaming. It's enough. It's enough.
[00:58:10] Pernille: And so, yeah, so looking at your own systems, right, and going, where are the major time consumers and how can that be shifted back to co-creating with students, to co-sharing responsibility, and then also alerting people to what's happening because education has created the largest gag order I've ever been under.
[00:58:29] Olivia: I agree.
[00:58:29] Pernille: And again, it's not because we've been told, but it's the system that oppresses us as far as what good teachers are supposed to do. And I think the more we can push back or activate others to push back.
[00:58:42] Olivia: Yes.
[00:58:42] Pernille: I think it's so important because I cannot tell you how many times I cried in my kitchen because I was so worn out. And yet when people said: How's it going? I would say: Oh, it's good. I really liked the kids. Which was true, but I didn't share that I was standing and crying in my kitchen at the same time. And I think we become victims of a system that has made us feel like it is our fault for not being enough. And that is a really major problem.
[00:59:08] Olivia: I agree.
[00:59:08] Pernille: Um, and so I think if, if you're sitting like me, feeling overwhelmed or feeling like, how am I ever supposed to change anything? Make an easy change and then celebrate those small steps and always replace, replace, replace, replace, and if you're not sure where to start, ask your students.
[00:59:26] Olivia: Yes.
[00:59:26] Pernille: What do you wish? Right? And of course, they're going to say crazy things. My students were always like: I wish we had a Starbucks, or I wish we could sleep all day, or I wish we had three couches. Me too. I wish we had couches. But then there were also ideas in there of like, okay, well, that I can do and let's do it together. And the same thing goes with when things don't work for kids.
[00:59:45] Pernille: I think we're so good at sitting at home and going: How can I fix it? How can I fix it? Like we're the ultimate fixers instead of going back and saying to the kids: What can we do to fix it? Because this is an awesome thing rather than me coming up with more things to impose on you or more things to try. And if they're like: I don't know, then you can say, I don't know either, but we need to come up with something.
[01:00:04] Olivia: Yeah. I love it. And that idea of it's us together on the journey, it really flattens that hierarchy notion that the education system holds so tightly on to control. Pernille, you are a gift to education, and I am humbled that you responded to my email request. I was so excited.
[01:00:25] Pernille: Of course. I was honored!
[01:00:27] Olivia: You're just, you're a hero to so many people. And I know that's a lot of pressure and, um, I'm grateful for the time and dedication you do put into the idea of global collaboration, but just the joy you try to spark on a daily basis for others. And I hope you feel the love from so many that appreciate you for who you are and the energy you put out there in the universe. So thank you.
[01:00:54] Pernille: Thank you. Those words land in a place that is very needed. It's very lonely to sit even in your old home.
[01:01:01] Olivia: Yeah.
[01:01:01] Pernille: Not feeling like you, you fully belong and having let go of teaching for now. So, thank you for making space for me and still saying that there's a place for me in that community when you feel like you've somehow betrayed it.
[01:01:14] Olivia: There's always space. There's always space and time, right? Thank you. Take care.
[01:01:19] Pernille: You too.
[01:01:20] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Pernille Ripp. Thanks to my older son Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. If you like Schoolutions, please share, rate, review, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you want to reach out, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website: www.oliviawahl.com/podcast or via email @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to talk about us nicely on social media, and please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.