[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am humbled to welcome my guest today, Dr. Molly Ness. Let me tell you a little bit about Molly. Molly's career in education began in middle school as a teacher in Oakland with Teach for America.
[00:00:27] Olivia: She holds a doctorate in reading education from the University of Virginia, where she served as the director of the McGuffey Reading Center. Molly spent 16 years as a university professor. Her research focuses on reading comprehension, teachers' instructional choices, and dyslexia. She's written four books and numerous articles in top-tiered educational journals that I will link in the show notes.
[00:00:52] Olivia: In 2019, Molly created the End Book Deserts podcast. And in 2022, she created The Coalition for Literacy Equity. Our conversation today will center around Molly's newest book released in September of 2023, Read Alouds for all Learners: A Comprehensive Plan for Every Subject, Every Day, grades PreK through eighth grade. Molly, I am thrilled to welcome you as a guest on Schoolutions.
[00:01:23] Molly: Well, thanks so much for having me.
[00:01:24] Olivia: Yes. I love to start every episode by asking guests who an inspiring educator is from their life. Would you share with listeners?
[00:01:33] Molly: Sure. Um, I have to mention my 10th-grade history teacher. Um, I went to a, an all girls independent school, um, in Baltimore, Maryland, and we had, um, coordinated classes with the boys' school in high school. Um, our classes were very small. They were 15 people max. And I will never forget walking in as a, nervous 15-year-old. Um, I sat down at my desk, and David Portnoy, who was my assigned history teacher, I believe it was American History at the time.
[00:02:06] Molly: Um, the first thing he did was he came up to me and extended his hand, shook his hand, and said, my name is David Portnoy. I'm thrilled to be your teacher. Um, and it was the first time for me that a teacher had really shown their humanistic side, um, tried to sort of connect to me as an individual human being rather than just sort of a student.
[00:02:28] Molly: Um, and I'm happy to say that, well, I won't say how many years later it is, but many decades later, I am still in touch with Mr. Portnoy. He, um, was a reader at my wedding. Um, he is very involved in my daughter's life. She's now 13-almost the age that I was when I met him. He has continued to be a lifelong educator, and to see the way that he has continued to maintain friendships and personal relationships with his students, um, just embodies his commitment to his love for watching students as human beings grow as learners and as individuals.
[00:03:08] Olivia: Wow. Um, I, I think he'll appreciate that acknowledgment, that shout-out. And it's those teachers that reach us at our head, heart, and gut that stick with us. Um, and it's about the relationships. I am grateful, so very grateful to have you as a guest for a myriad of reasons. Um, and, you know, Natalie Wexler, in the forward of your book, I have a sneak preview - we're recording this over summer. So the book hasn't been released yet. And I do; I'm a super dork. I printed the cover because I'm so excited.
[00:02:28] Molly: That’s fabulous.
[00:03:43] Olivia: Here it is. Here it is. Um, and you so graciously sent me a draft. And so I was able to pour over that. Um, and the forward, Natalie just beautifully articulates the issue that I'm seeing everywhere. You know, “Read aloud is a vital building block of literacy that is too often overlooked.”
[00:04:05] Olivia: And you offer so many different ways to plan for read aloud in this resource in the book, and we're going to jump into connections between the science of reading and read aloud.”
[00:04:17] Olivia: I'm just excited to have a conversation around this with you. Um, one of the quotes, that outside of the book being the solution and your research that I think is brilliant. I want listeners to have this in mind. Um, again, from the beginning of the book;
[00:04:34] Olivia: “Before students are fluent to independent readers, listening to an expert reader is the most efficient way to build the knowledge and vocabulary that are crucial to reading comprehension. It's been found that children's listening comprehension exceeds their reading comprehension through about age 13, on average. That means they can take in more sophisticated concepts and vocabulary through listening than through their own reading.” Read aloud, read aloud, read aloud.
[00:05:07] Molly: Absolutely. In many ways, read alouds are leveling the playing field. Um, not just for our kids who their independent comprehension is below their listening comprehension. Um, but for kids who don't have access to background experiences. Maybe their, uh, family lives in an area that has, um, you know, is geographically isolated, or maybe they don't have a family who has money to take them to the museum or field trips or what have you.
[00:05:36] Molly: So read alouds really are, um, the equalizer in terms of access to content, access to vocabulary, access to knowledge, um, and as grateful as I am for this moment in our literacy landscape where there's so much conversation in, um, the public press and documentary films and podcasts and social media about literacy.
[00:05:59] Molly: I've been concerned that the that the focus has been so singularly on phonics and decoding. And the message there is that, um the top part of the Scarborough Reading Rope, those language comprehension skills, um, get pushed aside. And really, how do you build those? You build them through read alouds. So, um, it was a real pleasure to just dive deep into the research around read alouds and geek out, um, and sort of feed my inner reading researcher dork, um, around the research showing the importance of read alouds. It really, it, it, it surprised me what I found.
[00:06:38] Olivia: Yeah. And I feel exactly the same way. Um, I have similar concerns that if we have such a hyper-focus on one piece of literacy that there will be others that fall to the wayside. And, um, something I'm thinking about doing is your website is phenomenal. And the resource page you offer with connections to the science of reading is brilliant. I want to go back to my personal website and make sure that if I'm mentioning a literacy structure, like read aloud, that I have research right there for educators at their fingertips.
[00:07:18] Olivia: Just like you. Um, I need to be you, Molly, in a way, because you just, you make information and research so accessible. And I appreciate that. Um, so I'd love to ground our conversation for listeners. I don't know many folks that are not clear, um, on what the science of reading is, but I do have listeners that are parents and caregivers.
[00:07:40] Olivia: So could you start us off by defining what is the science of reading, um, based on your research and experience?
[00:07:49] Molly: Sure. So I borrow heavily from The Reading League, uh, which is a professional organization based in Syracuse, New York. Mm-hmm. founded about eight years ago for my definition of the science of reading.
[00:08:01] Molly: Yes. Um, I am on the advisory board for the New York chapter of, um, the Reading League. And the Reading League, um, defines the science of reading as a longstanding body of knowledge. Um, We are talking about peer-reviewed, which is the cream of the crop, the gold standard, um, research. Um, and it is what excites me about the, um, science of reading is how interdisciplinary it is.
[00:08:24] Molly: Um, when I was a professor, my, uh, school of education was, was pretty siloed. The social, the, uh, the, the special education folks didn't really. talk too much to the literacy folks, and the ed leadership folks didn't really talk a whole lot to the curriculum and teaching folks. And all of these organizations have their own conferences, their own journals.
[00:08:45] Molly: Um, and so things feel very siloed, and that sort of plays out in our public schools as well. Um, what excites me about the science of reading is those silos are coming down. We see contributions from the field of speech-language pathologists. and reading psychologists, even our medical colleagues, the American Academy of Pediatrics, who are the people that we look to for, you know, at what age should I get the MMR shot?
[00:09:11] Molly: Or when should I change my child's car seat from rear-facing to forward-facing? They are now having guidelines and thought pieces around literacy because so many people are coming to the table recognizing that literacy has an impact on so much of our children's and our society's health, um, public reliance, uh, success, incarceration, um, really public, um, literacy is in my mind, our, um, number one pressing issue of social justice.
[00:09:44] Molly: So I'm getting a little sidetracked because, um, I can go off on a soapbox about my, my feelings about literacy. But I define the science of reading as a long-term, a long-time, standing body of research showing us how the brain develops as a reading brain. Um, it is a reminder that, um, we are not as human beings are not innately born to read, that reading is, um, invented by humans. And because it's a relatively short-lived development in the overarching timeline of of, um, human evolution that we need explicit instruction in reading to, um, to develop the reading brain.
[00:10:25] Olivia: Yes. Um, and what I am very grateful for is, uh, this book highlights the connection between read aloud and the science of reading.
[00:10:37] Olivia: And I think that will be really helpful for many educators that are concerned that read aloud is not as at the forefront as it should be right now. Um, I also am really grateful to Solution Tree because they are going to offer a discount code that I will talk into the show notes so everyone could get their hands on your book.
[00:10:57] Olivia: Um, I think it's important to define read aloud then for listeners. Um, and I, actually. I borrowed right from your book, if it's okay. Um, I love how you define read aloud.
[00:11:10] Olivia: Um, and in your words, “I define a read aloud as a shared literacy experience, engaging children and adults in conversation and engagement around a high-quality text. I use the terms read aloud and interactive read aloud interchangeably because of the interaction and give and take of ideas that naturally occur in conversation that all read alouds should include.” Beautiful. Um, so with that said, can you help us connect the role of read aloud in the science of reading?
[00:11:46] Molly: Sure. Um, well, I, um, want to really highlight that the word for me and read alouds is that interaction. That there's a language give and take. Um, and I should say to all of the parents and caregivers who are listeners. The focus of this book is, um, on read alouds that occur within schools, but that by no means, means that all of these benefits aren't equally as important, um, as read alouds that happen outside of school walls. Um, and we can certainly have long, lots of conversations about those. But so for the context of this book, I'm presenting research that looks at in-school read alouds. Um, so there's a long-standing body of research that shows how read alouds benefit students in terms of language and literacy skills.
[00:12:36] Molly: Early literacy skills, letter recognition, print awareness, vocabulary, but I actually was super interested to find a relatively new body of research showing physiological benefits of read alouds. This to me is like, my inner geek was like singing and dancing when I read, uh, when I found this data. Um, so, there is research out of neonatal intensive care units, the NICU, um, that looks at the medical benefits of medically fragile, uh, babies listening to read alouds.
[00:13:12] Molly: So, um, what happened in this particular study that's been replicated, um, time and time again, is parents who, um, often have a hard time interacting with their infant that is in an incubator with all these wires and it feels a little scary and they're, um, they weren't having the experience that many of us envision in a, you know, you have your baby and you bring it home.
[00:13:34] Molly: And, um, so what they did was they read to their babies, um, in appropriate ways. So, really medically fragile babies were read to short durations, whisper reading, and then they altered those conditions based on the medical fragility of each baby. And what they found, um, is that these babies, their heart rates slowed and their respiration, um, their breathing rates sort of normalized and equalized, and, um, that these results actually continued for up to 30 minutes after the duration of the read aloud.
[00:14:15] Molly: So that literally shows that the body becomes less medically stressed, um, listening to a read aloud. They also showed, um, benefits for the parents and caregivers. Um, many people, many women who have, um, babies that are born in the NICU experience postpartum depression. Um, and all of these women, I think 90 percent of the participants said that, um, reading aloud to their babies and infants helped their postpartum depression and that it was something that they were going to continue after they took their children home.
[00:14:49] Molly: Another study, I know it's mind-blowing. Another study actually looked at, um, older children. So children who were grade level, uh, school level, uh, school-age children and found that those children in the hospital, when they listened to read alouds, they reported lower levels of pain.
[00:15:10] Molly: And when we looked at their blood chemistry, we found higher levels of neurotransmitters that mark pleasure and, um, enjoyment and lower levels of things like cortisol, which are, um, affiliated with stress. So many medical benefits to read alouds. I just think that is absolutely incredible because so many of us know about the sort of; your vocabulary increases, um, your literacy rates increase.
[00:15:36] Molly: Um, we also are starting to see some real socio-emotional benefits from listening to read alouds. That children who listen to read alouds have, um, better executive function that they, um, are able to manage their behavior and their. um, empathetic responses to each other. Um, so I, it was, it was fascinating to me to find studies that were sort of beyond the typical comprehension increases, writing improvements, and, and then by no means are those studies ones to overlook, but now, um, the, the, the research is just so, um, you just cannot overlook how many factors and, um, and how many measures are helping us understand how read alouds benefit students, um, cognitively, um, in terms of their literacy development, their socio-emotional growth, even now, um, physiologically.
[00:16:21] Olivia: It's next level. Um, and I think it gives a whole, um, new layer of validation to why this is the cornerstone of literacy. Um, I am so blessed to live in Ithaca, New York, with many different, both the Family Reading Partnership and Children's Reading Connection that focus heavily on early literacy. And I interviewed them for an earlier podcast episode where every baby that's born in the hospital, the family leaves with a gorgeous canvas bag filled with beautiful books that they can read aloud to their children.
[00:17:08] Olivia: And I think that the benefits of reading aloud to children in schools often is so highlighted at the elementary level. So that pre-K through fifth-grade world. What I really also appreciate is research you offer about the benefits in middle school, as well as high school.
[00:17:28] Olivia: Could you offer some perspective on trends in that world? Because I don't think students are read aloud to enough in middle and high school.
[00:17:39] Molly: Sure. Um, and you're right that the research shows that, um, there is a decline of read alouds as children, um, increase in age and, uh, grade level. Um, so many of us associate read alouds with the, you know, kindergarten experience of the teacher in the rocking chair and kids, um, all nestled in front of him or her on the carpet.
[00:18:01] Molly: Um, what we know though, is that 75 percent of kids say they want the read alouds to continue, um, that their, their teachers or their parents or their caregivers stopped, but they actually enjoyed them, and they want them to continue. Um, we know that as much as, um, read alouds, the value of them, that 36, only 36 percent of teachers read aloud every day and actually 27 percent of teachers in the survey.
[00:18:33] Molly: And I'm happy to share the surveys themselves. Um, 27 percent of middle school teachers never read aloud. Um, so there's a real disconnect with kids wanting it, kids enjoying it, the, um, myriad of benefits of listening to read alouds, but the reality is of what is happening in schools. And also when we look at, um, the kind of the quality of text choices and the quality of instructional planning around read alouds, we see some some pretty glaring statistics.
[00:19:06] Molly: And I should couch this in saying that when I think back to my first years as a middle school teacher, I was a part of these statistics. So what we know is that 50 to 70 percent of teachers don't intentionally plan their read alouds. And...other than, you know, here's the book I'm going to read, maybe here are the pages that I'm going to cover in however many minutes I've planned, and I have to say, that was me way back when as a first-year teacher. Um, I knew how much time I had, I knew what pages I was going to cover, but I didn't really stop and say, okay, here's what I should do, here's where I can highlight some vocabulary, here's a question that might evoke conversation. And what we know is that when we don't explicitly and intentionally plan, we miss out on instructional opportunities.
[00:19:57] Molly: We also know that, um, when surveyed the, the vast majority of books that are read aloud are, um, older in quality. The average age of books that teachers have selected is about 20 to 25 years old. And I am in no means, um, saying that those aren't quality books. Um, but when we don't take advantage of the quality of the high quality of highly reflective, diverse, engaging texts that are coming out on a daily basis, we lose the opportunity of more recent texts that may engage kids in different ways.
[00:20:37] Molly: So, older texts that teachers chose because they love that as a child, um, which doesn't always translate. I remember reading a book that I loved as a kid and it was a total flop in my classroom when I read it aloud. Um, but most alarmingly to me is that the read aloud is so often overlooked, um, And not seen as another part of the instructional day, which requires thoughtful planning and preparation.
[00:21:03] Olivia: So, and I am really lucky to work with a large cadre of middle school teachers these days. And we have found that it's incredibly powerful to consider if, if we're looking at a novel, perhaps, you know, make sure that it's going to reflect, it's Rudine Sims Bishop who we're looking at mirrors, sliding glass doors, that reflection, and the windows.
[00:21:28] Olivia: And we're, we're asking ourselves what aspect, what parts of this book could be really challenging for students to navigate? Whether it's because of the content, whether it's because of access with decoding. Um, and those are the, the little snippets that we will linger with together collectively. What can students tackle on their own independently? And then, you know, do we really have to always read the whole book, if it's a longer text? That's up for debate. But I do think it's short- sighted as well to not continue reading picture books all the way through high school. Um, and I know Pernille Ripp would agree with that.
[00:22:11] Olivia: Um, tenfold. So, you have a beautiful three-step planning process. Let's linger there for a moment. Could you share with listeners what that looks and feels like?
[00:22:24] Molly: Sure, and I wrote it because it's what I wish I had when I was an initial teacher. And it's what, when I was a, um, for almost 20 years when I was a professor, it's sort of the framework that I taught my preservice and early career teachers to do.
[00:22:38] Molly: Um, so it's a three-step process all starting with E. So the first E is evaluate. Um, what we do here is we evaluate potential stumbling blocks and potential instructional opportunities. So we sort of look through the text and say, just as you were saying earlier, this is a place students might struggle because of vocabulary or we're identifying background knowledge that, um, students need to have to understand that particular part of the book.
[00:23:09] Molly: Um, we're also looking for instructional opportunities of, oh, this is a great time to bring up, you know, something we studied a month ago, or this is a great time to connect to a conversation we just had. So I evaluate for stumbling blocks as well as those, I want to make sure I really hone in on this, to, to capture the, um, the advantages of it.
[00:23:31] Molly: The second step is the during the read aloud. So I call it explain. And here, what I'm doing is I'm explaining two things. First of all, I'm explaining vocabulary. We know the importance of vocabulary to comprehension. Um, and I think of vocabulary sort of in two buckets. I think about the words that I want to explicitly teach.
[00:23:53] Molly: And then the words you kind of just have to explain and move on so that kids understand that particular passage, but they're not the words that are ones I'm going to follow up with once I'm going to provide a ton of explicit instruction in. So I explain in terms of vocabulary and I also do a lot of think alouds.
[00:24:11] Molly: And I, um, I love think the power of think alouds. What I mean by a think aloud is the first-person narrative where I literally am cracking open my head and modeling the thought processes that are going on in my head to understand something. And I'm using first-person language to show that to kids so that they can be successful in, in comprehension.
[00:24:39] Molly: We know that, um, so many times the way we think we are teaching comprehension is asking kids questions. And if you think about it, that's really a, a, a, a comprehension assessment. It doesn't actually build comprehension. So it's kind of a measure rather than here; I'm going to show you how to understand this text.
[00:25:00] Molly: But I think aloud does, I think aloud is like, I'm literally showing you what to do to be successful, um, through things like, wow, I wonder here why the character might have, or I'm having a hard time understanding this passage. Let me show you what I'm going to do to as a fix-it strategy. So I do a lot of think alouds and they're all in first-person narrative.
[00:25:20] Molly: They are all, um literally me saying, here's what I as a proficient reader, am going to do. And think alouds are relevant; all kids, all contexts, all grade levels, all, um, at home, just as well as with the teacher. And what I love about them is they're quick, easy. We're not doing a mini-lesson. We're not doing, you know, a whole 20-minute monologue.
[00:25:43] Molly: We're just doing a, Hmm. I am getting the sense here to model what I'm doing to make an inference.
[00:25:49] Olivia: Molly, I want to pause because I just, I want to let listeners know. On your website, you have gorgeous examples, little clips of think alouds that I think are really helpful and, um, I also truly believe that the thinking aloud is just that it's the model that our children need and you said it equals the playing field.
[00:26:13] Olivia: It offers access to that higher level thinking that we want all children doing. And again, it's not comprehension, like a comprehension check. It's really transferable thinking that if you illuminate it with this particular book around character moves that are happening; the children can take that to every other picture book or book they're reading. So you just, I want listeners to know your website is a plethora of resources and you offer little video clips of you doing that work. So I'm sorry to interrupt, but…
[00:26:48] Molly: No, I'm glad you brought that up. And actually, um, we've all done a think aloud. We just may not know that it's called a think aloud. So for example, if you've ever taught a five or six-year-old to tie shoelaces, you've done a think aloud. Oh, okay. First, I'm going to make bunny ears out of these loops. Next, I'm going to pass one loop through another. Now I'm going to pull them tight. If you've taught a 16, a 15, or 16-year-old how to drive, you've done a think aloud.
[00:27:15] Molly: First, I'm going to check my rearview mirrors. Next, I'm going to signal. That's a think aloud. You are literally showing a child or a learner. What to do to be successful in whatever learning task. Here we're just applying them to comprehension, but they are, um, sort of ubiquitous in, in learning and instruction.
[00:27:35] Molly: So, the third step, um, is engage and extend. So engaging kids in oral conversation, engaging kids in, um, opportunities beyond, um, the text itself and extending literacy activities that involve reading, writing, listening, and speaking that naturally fit with this text. And here I get a little, um, I get a little persnickety because sometimes I feel like we do activities in our classroom that are cutesy.
[00:28:08] Molly: But if I don't have a, if I can't really clearly say here is how kids are benefiting in reading, writing, speaking, or listening, then I think of that as a time filler and not a literacy activity. So, for example, um, many of us know the book, the Mo Willems book, Knuffle Bunny. It is the book about where Trixie, um, little Trixie is a preschooler.
[00:28:33] Molly: She goes to the laundromat with her dad. She loses her beloved stuffed animal. And then the whole book is, unfolds about Trixie's adventures to find her stuffed animal. And the laundromat is a central location in this book. So, I was watching one of my student teachers, um, do an activity after the read aloud.
[00:28:53] Molly: It was an extension activity where she took paper plates and she was having her first graders make washing machines out of her first out of these paper plates and, you know, decorate them as they were the laundry, the washing machine where this stuffed animal was, was lost. Were kids engaged? Yeah. Was it cute and enjoyable to watch?
[00:29:14] Molly: Yes. But was it an arts and crafts activity or a time filler or was it benefiting her kids with reading, writing, speaking, and listening? And so when I met with my student at the time and said, okay, how, um, what skills were you building? In what way was that activity building, reading, writing, speaking, and listening? She, she kind of was a little; she had a hard time answering. And that question to me is a way to sort of pass, not pass judgment, but really get to the heart of what kids need and how to prioritize our instructional time.
[00:29:52] Olivia: Yeah. Molly, I'd also say like, let's stick with Knuffle Bunny because I think it's a magnificent example.
[00:29:59] Olivia: That book is also steeped with a lot of craft. So I think if we are choosing our think alouds very carefully, it's that idea of let's knock all of the silos down. Let's knock reading and writing down and merge them completely. Let's intertwine and let's have our think alouds name those craft moves. So how did the speech bubbles bring us into how Trixie was feeling; that “Aggle, Flabble, Klabble” when she's flipping out that, you know, she knows where that bunny is, and yeah, so I think that's another layer of the possibilities with this.
[00:30:39] Olivia: You articulate so beautifully in the book, you know, read aloud is not just for the literacy craft, but it translates across all content areas. It's such a gorgeous opportunity. So, yes, reading and writing - let's intertwine those. Let's use our think aloud strategically. Why is read aloud also really important to navigate and bridge across all content areas?
[00:31:05] Molly: Sure. So, um, I believe that read alouds are a get-to-do, must-do, have-to-do, should-do, want-to-do in every content area. And I again want to push us past the vision that a read aloud is, you know, the rocking chair and the kindergarten teacher and the picture book start to finish. I want to see read alouds in a 7th-grade Spanish class.
[00:31:27] Molly: I want to see them in a 5th-grade social studies class. But I think we have to be really mindful of what we consider reading aloud. And by this, I mean, maybe we're not reading 15 minutes start to cover in that, you know, fifth-grade social studies class. Maybe we're reading a speech that a historical figure, um, gave or maybe in a music class; we are reading a short biography or a memoir about, um, about the, the musician who wrote the piece that we are learning to play or what have you.
[00:32:04] Molly: Um, so I think we have to really be creative and, um, inventive in what we think, what we consider, and what we choose to read aloud. In physical education class, if we're about to start playing volleyball, that gym teacher, perfect opportunity to go to the U. S. Volleyball Association and read aloud and think aloud about the rules.
[00:32:27] Molly: Or to read aloud from a, you know, we're, we're now as we sit together, we are it's the U.S. Women's World Cup soccer is happening. So let's read a newspaper article that covers the, um, that covers the game from last night. Or if we're in science, we can read aloud from a newspaper article that is featuring the global warming that we're all experiencing in the summer of 2023. So I think sometimes we get stuck in our mind with this vision of what a read aloud is.
[00:32:58] Molly: And that feels like something I can't do necessarily as a 6th-grade social studies teacher or an 8th-grade math teacher, but really, when we are more inviting and more sort of comprehensive and what we consider the read aloud to look like, then we start to identify opportunities that it can happen every day in short bursts in every content area.
[00:33:20] Olivia: It’s, it's brilliant. And something that I also have experienced over the past few years is, you know, going outside of my comfort zone and working with science teachers, social studies teachers at middle and high school. And I've realized that I really forgot how to navigate technical texts, um, in, you know, social studies textbooks, but just looking at it, you know, a piece of, um, machinery directions.
[00:33:55] Olivia: There is, I think, as adults, we forget that there is a way to navigate text on a page, and it's not always starting in the upper left-hand corner. And so a lot of that think aloud work could also be, where do I begin? If I'm looking at a piece or a diagram, right, of scientific texts? So that think alouds invaluable across content areas.
[00:34:19] Olivia: Um, Molly, I don't know how you fit all that you do or balance life. Um, because you also began the End Book Deserts podcast in 2019, um, that is magnificent, um, as well as launching The Coalition for Literacy Equity in 2022. So, you know, in preparation for this,I, I think a lot about the folks that I have the gift of interviewing.
[00:34:48] Olivia: And I am really interested to ask you, your, your mission is book access. What are your thoughts around schools and districts that are restricting book access? In their minds, I, I've got to have hope that they think they're doing it with good intent instead of malintent. But I'd love for your, your perspective and words for the districts, for the legislators that are restricting book access. And then I'd love for you to speak directly to teachers that are feeling like they don't know what to do when it comes to read aloud, so let's go both ways.
[00:35:29] Molly: Sure, well, I, I will start with just a little bit of the backstory of the podcast, um, because I'm somebody who's lived in the literacy world for three decades now. And when I came across the, the data around book access in 2018, I was shocked. So the research shows that 32 million American kids lack access to books in their homes, schools, or communities. And every time I've said that statistic, too many times to count and every time I say it, I'm still just gobsmacked by it because this is a; books are something that are easily transportable.
[00:36:08] Molly: They are something that are not linked to; they're not a human service that is hard to disseminate. Um, and the fact that kids lack access to me is; how do, how do you become a reader if you don't have access? Um, and there's some really, really compelling studies that show book access and disparity in low-income communities, um, and communities of higher wealth in the same city and same town.
[00:36:37] Molly: Um, so there's, there's fascinating research. My, uh, colleague Susan Newman is just brilliant in that research and she was the first-person that, um, I interviewed on the podcast because I want to start with awareness. The fact that kids don't have access to books. And when I bring this up, it's first the invitation to teachers and librarians to send books home.
[00:36:59] Molly: Many of us assume that kids have books at home and we can't make that assumption. And when we start to realize like, oh my gosh, they don't have books at home. Then we start to say, okay, well, why, what can I do? And maybe for me as an individual school teacher or librarian, it is sending books home. And then the question always becomes, well, what if they don't come back?
[00:37:18] Molly: Well, so what! We can replace those books. Um, Donalyn Miller always says this quote that I love so much, which is, “I'd rather lose, um, a book than lose a reader.” Um, and I just think that's brilliant. Um, so the podcast itself is, um, highlights the innovative people in program who work to build book access. So it's everybody from Dolly Parton Imagination Library to Reach Out and Read to then really, um, specific programs that provide book access and build reading culture and literacy culture in what I call overlooked populations.
[00:37:53] Molly: So kids living in the foster care system, kids whose parents are deployed or incarcerated, there's this amazing program, um, where every, every U.S. battleship, every, um, army station, all of them have a recording room for parents who are deployed to read a book to their child. The organization sends that video and that book home to the child.
[00:38:22] Molly: I mean, so there's just such innovative stuff. It's amazing. Um, and the way people are working and I started this before COVID and of course continued the coverage during COVID. Um, so I'm just floored by people's innovation, um, people who are putting vending machines, um, with books in, um, WIC centers and public playgrounds, people who are creating reading corners and public laundromats and barbershops.
[00:38:46] Molly: And I mean, there's just no limit to people's creativity around this. Um, so I, the whole question about book access that is, um, beyond just actually like the statistics around 32 million, um, one of the thoughts that keeps ruminating in my mind is at what point in history do we have any documentation, any record of showing book banning was done by the, the “the good guys?”
[00:39:15] Molly: If you look at our history in general. When was it ever a good idea? Um, so I get pretty up in arms, um, about, um, book banning and about who is, um, the, who are the victims of it. In all cases, uh, the people who suffer are kids who either don't see themselves and their realities reflected in a text or can't learn and develop skills of empathy and connection about others, um, because of the lack of the, those, of the lack of access to texts that provide that.
[00:39:55] Molly: Um, so I'm pretty, I'm pretty, um, I'm, I'm in shock that in 2023, we're having these conversations.
[00:42:05] Olivia: Me too, me too.
[00:39:55] Molly: Um, I, I still keep coming back to that. How can this be happening and that disbelief? Um, and I think about when I was, um, training in my teaching, somebody once told me that in its very essence, teaching is a form of resistance.
[00:40:23] Molly: Um, we often have to close our classroom doors or our classroom libraries and fly under the radar to give kids what they need and to meet kids where they are, even though we know It isn't what we “should be doing” or are allowed to do, or what have you. So, um, I continue, um, that, you know, what John Lewis calls “making good trouble,” which, um, I just love that John Lewis quote as well.
[00:40:51] Molly: Um, I see librarians and, um, any teacher or any literacy advocate, because so much of my work is literacy advocates outside of the classroom, um, who gets books to kids as a, um, as a social justice warrior. Um, I've written some briefs about the importance of, um, librarians in schools. Um, and, um, I am right there with you fighting the good fight, um, and know that, um. Well, one actually, let me just pause and say one thing that I want that I, that keeps me up at night is if you look at the surveys of what Americans think about where we are with regard to book banning, the vast majority of Americans are against what is going on.
[00:41:37] Molly: So I really think about, well, so it's the noisy minority that is getting the platform, the spotlight, the microphone. How do we shift that narrative? Um, and I think we, the more we can do to shift that narrative, the quieter those voices will become. So I think a lot about that. And how are we giving, um, the, the, the, the, the noisy minority, um, so much power and so much presence when it's not what most of us want.
[00:42:08] Olivia: I think what I appreciate so much around the End Book Deserts podcast, but just your mission and your work is that I love the idea; let's quell the voices that are getting so much attention. That is not the majority of what folks want. And let's continue to rise and raise the voices of those that are doing the work.
[00:42:32] Molly: I have been fortunate in my work, um, to strike up friendships with a lot of authors, middle-grade authors, um, picture book authors. And, um, I think there's this misconception, and my author friends always remind me of this, that it's not, never a good thing when your book is, is put on a banned book list. People sort of think, oh, yeah, you know, you're getting the attention because your book is on that list and now it's going to sell a million copies.
[00:43:00] Molly: And not a single one of my author friends feels good about it. It's, it's all humiliating. It's, um, it makes you send all of my friends into this spiral of, of doubt and shame and guilt and remorse. And ultimately they know that who it's really hurting are the kids. Yes. Yes.
[00:43:18] Olivia: Yes, yes! Um, and I go back. It was season one, episode seven, with Morgan Jackson, a high school teacher in Las Vegas, Nevada.
[00:43:27] Olivia: And I will always have her words lingering in my mind that when we remove a book from a classroom, any child that identifies with that book or connects with it, we are telling them they do not belong. That is the message.
[00:43:55] Molly: And there's no place for them.
[00:43:44] Olivia: And that's unacceptable. It's just unacceptable. Um, what can we look forward to when it comes to the podcast as well as The Coalition?
[00:43:46] Molly: Sure. So, um, well, I have been doing a lot of work recently showing, um, companies, um, who literacy is their cause, um, Dollar General, many of us see Dollar General in our community. Um, because they, I think, actually they're one of the fastest growing companies. Um, they are a huge, huge literacy advocates.
[00:44:17] Molly: Teachers can apply to Dollar General’s Literacy Foundation. Thank you. For grants for classroom libraries, um, you know, Pitney Bowes, um, all of these organizations that we sort of think of as being in corporate America, um, are really embracing literacy as their cause. So I've been doing a lot of work with, um, those corporations and such.
[00:44:36] Molly: And, um, there's all sorts of exciting forward momentum, um, about bringing together literacy advocates, whether they are an individual school librarian who rides her bicycle into, um, her students' neighborhoods during the summer to a big, you know, jet blue airlines and their literacy. There are all these coalitions forming that are saying, all right, we are sort of getting back to that idea of silos; we've been previously operating in silos, and because we've not kind of created this nationwide coalition and network, our work hasn't been as impactful as it could be had we had a larger coalition..
[00:45:20] Molly: Um, so we're starting to see some really cool things where people are connecting and replicating each other's work across the country and there’s strength in numbers. And so I'm super excited to see colleagues coming together, learning from each other, trying out ideas that worked in one area and, um, looking at them and applying them to a different neighborhood.
[00:45:40] Molly: Um, so that, that collaborative work to me is super exciting as well as the, um, The interdisciplinary work this past spring, I had the pleasure of presenting at South by Southwest and I was on a panel with Malcolm Mitchell, who many people know as a Super Bowl winner, who is now a children's book writer and literacy advocate Read with Malcolm.
[00:46:04] Molly: You can look it up. It's amazing. Your classroom kids will love it. He was on the panel with me. And I, um, in the audience was Kristi Yamaguchi, who many of us know, she was an Olympic ice skater in the, gosh, 80s or 90s. And she has a Literacy Organization in California and Hawaii. And so I had this kind of surreal moment at the end of this, this panel where I got to introduce Kristi, this is my friend, Malcolm. Malcolm, this is my friend, Kristi. And here I'm thinking like, I'm a reading dork. Like in what world am I introducing a. gold medal winner to a Super Bowl winner?
[00:46:38] Olivia: It's awesome!
[00:46:38] Molly: It’s awesome because it's about literacy. And it's people coming together and saying our kids matter too much. Our society literally depends on the success of our students to be critical readers, writers, thinkers, and human beings. And if we can't develop them as lifelong readers in schools and in our homes, then our whole, we're all paying the cost.
[00:47:00] Olivia: Well, we’ve failed.
[00:47:02] Molly: Absolutely. So when people come together, I get excited about that coalition. And, um, there's so much exciting news to follow in the future with that.
[00:47:11] Olivia: It's awesome. With that said, I want listeners from far and wide to be able to support you, support your research. What is the best way for us to get in touch with you?
[00:47:23] Molly: Sure. So, um, my website, um, has those videos of me thinking aloud. Um, you can watch them as a teacher. You can watch them as a, uh, as a parent and try it out easily at your home. So that's drmollyness.com, and that's d-r-m-o-l-l-y-n-e-s-s.com. And then the End Book Deserts podcast is available on any podcasting platform. People always confuse deserts and desserts. deserts.
[00:47:49] Molly: As I will, I will always remember my fourth-grade teacher reminding us that deserts has one ”s” and desserts has two “ss” to make it extra yummy, so don't put in end book desserts because who would want to end those desserts? Um, and then, um, the last, uh, website is litequity. com and, um, they will forward to each other and end book deserts and litequity.com, um, link to each other.
[00:48:13] Olivia: Awesome. I will make sure to give links for all of this information in the show notes as well. Um, before I have you wrap our conversation with a call to action, I want to just also put on everyone's radar. I think we grossly underestimate our youth and their passion for equity and access.
[00:48:34] Olivia: And especially when we're thinking of middle and high school students, let's offer them the opportunity to craft projects. Um, one high school teacher I'm interviewing actually this afternoon, um, and her colleague had her; I think it was juniors create little free libraries. And they had to actually build the libraries and then throughout the town, throughout the city, and then they do, um, keep them maintained. But I just, I think that there's so much hope with our youth as future potential that we have to involve them in this really important work.
[00:49:11] Molly: Yeah. You're reminding me, when I talk to parents about book access and, and such, they have, I've, I've had so many of my friends and colleagues say, you know, I was talking to my kid about book access and, um, telling them that some kids don't have books to read and my kid disappeared and I went and found them and they were in their room going through their bookshelves and saying like, this would be a really good one to give to a kid who needs it.
[00:49:35] Molly: I want them to have this one. And, um, it's immediate, it's impactful. And, um, there are so many ways that we can all get involved. Be it time, financial donations or, you know, sorting books. All there's just so many ways that we can all get involved. Yeah.
[00:49:49] Olivia: Yeah. And so that really is our call to action. Get involved, do the research.
[00:49:53] Olivia: Is there anything else, last nugget of goodness you can leave us with around a call to action, Molly?
[00:50:00] Molly: Um, I would. My call to action, be it schools, teachers, librarians, or parents, is read with your loved ones. Um, read aloud. There is, um, we didn't even get into sort of the fascinating research, which is showing now, um, how, um, when senior citizens are read to, we see increases in memory, social connection, all of those sorts of things.
[00:50:26] Molly: So, you know, we're in the time of a hot summer. Maybe you take your family, and you go into your local nursing home, and you bring a picture book, and you read it. Um, or you do it at a playground or what have you. I think, um, the more we connect to each other as readers and embrace literacy culture, the more we all benefit.
[00:50:45] Molly: Either you as the reader or you as the listener. Um, and so I think there's just grab your favorite book, and share it with whomever you are hoping to connect to.
[00:50:54] Olivia: Well, Molly, this has been enlightening. Um, I was so nervous about having you as a guest because you're just, you're incredible, and it's humbling. Um, thank you for all you do for the world of literacy, and, um, reading is a civil right. And you live that, breathe it, and I'm just grateful for you and the important work you do.
[00:51:18] Molly: Well, thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you are doing to shine the light on schools, teachers, students, um, and knowing that our stories matter, our opinions should be heard, and we all have something to offer.
[00:51:32] Olivia: We sure do. Take care, Molly. Thank you so much. You
[00:51:35] Molly: You too.
[00:51:37] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Dr. Molly Ness. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.
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