[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to welcome my guest today, José Luis Vilson. Let me tell you a little bit about José. José Vilson is a veteran educator. He writes regularly for Edutopia and has contributed to the New York Times, CNN.com, Education Week, Huffington Post, and El Diario. José, it is my honor to welcome you as a guest on Schoolutions.
[00:00:39] José: Thanks for having me.
[00:00:40] Olivia: Yeah. I start out every episode by asking my guests who an inspiring educator is from their life. Would you share with listeners?
[00:00:50] José: Sheesh. I, I think, um. Hmm. So, there have been a bunch of; I've been blessed because I'm thinking about at least five or six different ones, but, um, one off the top of my head is actually, um, I'm going to go unorthodox here. Mr. Connolly, um, and I'm thinking about the moment that we're in.
[00:01:12] José: Mr. Connolly was somebody who had graduated from Harvard, um, him and Mr. Murphy, uh, both came to my middle school, um, which was all boys, Catholic, so on and so forth. He comes in and, um, he taught me English and language arts back when they were separate. And, um, I remember so many of his, like, he was fairly tough, but he always knew how to nudge me just a little bit more, and I think it was his eighth-grade class where I really learned how to deliver speeches, and speak, I guess for lack of a better term, truth to power.
[00:01:54] José: That means like being able to align what I intend to say with what I'm saying and then be able to give it to an audience that needed to hear it. And so I was, I'm grateful for the lessons now because, of course, I use that on a regular basis, but also because it allowed me to kind of use both of my feet and stand in my power and be able to say this is what I want to be able to say within a short amount of time. And so, um, I had a big issue with speaking more generally, but I really found a lot of courage by, by getting that sort of mentorship from him in that moment in time.
[00:02:29] Olivia: Fabulous. And well, I've got to tell you, um, your TEDx. Or your Ted Ed talk, I should say. I actually just watched and listened to with my boys this morning, um, on the way to camp; I wanted them to hear it. And I was so excited to have you as a guest. And you are incredibly articulate and inspirational. Um, you lift the voices of teachers, and that's why it's an honor to have you, and you also you speak power to what we need to do for our kids.
[00:03:01] Olivia: Um, so I always have an issue I name upfront for guests as for listeners. And really, I want you to speak to: if we love our children, we need to stop labeling them. And what I mean by that is when we label kids, when we track kids, we often then are indirectly, sometimes unintentionally, letting them know we don't believe in them, even though we say we love them.
[00:03:28] Olivia: So, you are the antithesis of that. You inspire teachers. You've inspired me through your blog. It is spec-freaking-tacular. Thank you for that. Um, and you also say, look, this work; yeah, we can teach all the content we want, but if we do not help our children believe in themselves. We've got nothing. And sometimes our most reluctant, our most resistant, striving kids, they have to know we believe in them before they'll believe in themselves.
[00:04:02] Olivia: So yeah.
[00:04:04] José: Absolutely.
[00:04:04] Olivia: With that said, um, I adore that people have deemed you the architect for a hopeful future. Yes! Uh, how do you use that title to inspire and help kids believe that they're mathematicians?
[00:04:24] José: I mean, I kind of, I want to scale that back just a bit so I can build it back up. Um, yes, that, that's, uh, a thing. As I'm thinking about how often we're asked to, um, look at a structure, and then when we don't like it, we want to destroy it.
[00:04:42] José: I prefer to say, let's look at things brick by brick and figure out what's necessary and what isn't so that it's not like we're unlearning; it's that we're actually trying to keep the lessons that we were supposed to learn and figure out why that was wrong and then build from there. Um, and so in my own classroom, one of the things I had learned was that a lot of our students actually do know things, and unlike what we get taught in too many of our own education schools that we're not just trying to pour things into our students’ minds, right?
[00:05:18] José: Um, as you've seen in, for example, Waiting for Superman or whatever other movies. It's that like we're trying to activate things that were already within them in order for them to go further than they can possibly imagine. And so, um, when I think about, you know, this title of architect for a better future, which, yes, was not me, but I did accept it and embraced it mainly because I felt like. Yes, I consistently trying to figure out ways to build up and build out and trying to help people build up and build out.
[00:05:47] José: Like there's a whole blueprint out there for how we make things better. And then when we need to course correct, then we do so responsively, and we do so responsibly. That's two things, right?
[00:05:59] José: Like I'm being responsive to the needs and concerns of people around me, but also try to be responsible to them as well. And so, um, that that's where that comes from. And that matters a lot to me, uh, whether in the, in the math classroom or not.
[00:06:12] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And something I also appreciate is your advocacy for teacher voice that we gather collective teacher voice to calibrate and say, is this working, is this not working?
[00:06:25] Olivia: Um, and I think that's a huge model for students as well, to see that collective efficacy that we have to have together. Um, so there's other pieces you've written. One of my favorite pieces, Math is a Social (Justice) Lever, and it's, it's a big piece because you speak to how math is an essential life tool when it comes across racial, gender, class lines. Can you speak more to that?
[00:06:53] José: When I was inspired by folks like Bob Moses, for example, who's a seminal educator, a legend in at least two games, one being the civil rights movement, and then second, of course, mathematics education. I started to contemplate how, uh, just like him, like in numeracy or dyscalculia, like, those are elements that unfortunately hinder our students from being able to achieve their fullest selves in terms of, um, citizenry and citizenship and participation in this country.
[00:07:26] José: And of course, on the converse, we've seen time and again, how so many people have tried to manipulate, uh, graphs and numbers and approaches to, you know, math more generally to try to keep as many people out from specific fields as possible or to keep people misinformed. And so a lot of my work has been saying, okay, it's not that math is there to help people pass standardized test scores.
[00:07:52] José: I mean, sure, like if you want, if that is your jam, then fine. But that is a means to an end. And the end is a citizenship, and if that citizenship means full participation in society, then that's kind of where I'm at—actually, not kind of, fully where I'm at. And so my, my math pedagogy was hoping that students could fully see themselves in the math that they're learning.
[00:08:15] José: And even if they don't consider everything that we do useful, it at least activates the part within them that says, yes, like I fully belong and I deserve to get as much mathematics education as possible and education more generally, not just math.
[00:08:29] Olivia: Yeah. What do you do to inspire students that are reluctant or striving, resistant even to math?
[00:08:37] José: Well, the two things that I'm going to focus on now, the first is that we need to learn how to ask better questions and then model question asking. I was, I'm always inspired by schools, for example, that lean on notions of inquiry as a basis for transformative education. So, you know, instead of saying, like, here's the answer, here's the answer, because, you know, we should show sure it may be more efficient.
[00:09:03] José: But when you ask students questions, then the act of them coming up with the answer and consistently seeing themselves as part of the answer-making almost ensures that as secures, right, that they're going to feel themselves as experts in the content that they have in front of them. So, like, as a quick example, like I might do a mini-lesson, and then we'll get into the classwork.
[00:09:26] José: And I try to figure out where everybody is. If, you know, most of the students are doing what they're supposed to do in terms of moving along with the progress, then that's fine. But if most of them aren't, of course, I go reteach. But, in the moments when I'm walking around, I might look at a student say, okay, well, you seem to be stuck there, then the student will ask me a question.
[00:09:46] José: And then I'll have like five or six questions in the back of my mind. And that'll be my way of scaffolding. Once I get to the lowest scaffold possible, and I say, okay, well, this is the part where you seem to be stuck. Okay. Let's build you up with more questions from here. The minute that they're able to answer a question that feels sufficient for their progress, then instead of saying, you got it right, I just walk away. And it gets frustrating for students in the first couple months when I do that.
[00:10:13] José: And then they get the hint. Like, I'm not trying to be the one authority that you're supposed to lean on. I'm trying to help you for you to be the authority on this set of questions. And then secondly, I think it's just about, like, ensuring that teachers and students have more opportunities to be in dialogue.
[00:10:33] José: And so I find that if I get things, uh, incorrect, I don't get mad. In fact, I'm like, oh, okay. So I want you to disagree with me. I want to see if, like, you're going to catch what I did there. And if you can point out what my mistake was, then good. I'm glad you're doing that because that consistent vulnerability.
[00:10:53] José: And so there are times when like, I literally just, I mean, I just did not have a good day. I'm like, oh, okay, well, I messed up right here. And the students will correct me. And that's good. And there are times when I've even allowed like a couple of students to just take on a question without me, because I'm like, oh, I just have a total brain freeze right here.
[00:11:12] José: I'm sorry about that. But that's, those are parts of the work. And hopefully, you know, more people allow themselves to be vulnerable, even as we, as teachers, consider ourselves experts.
[00:11:22] Olivia: Yeah, it's, it's brilliant. And I think too, as someone said to me, a very wise person a long time ago that we cannot be doing all the work for our kids that we should not be leaving our school buildings dog tired and the kids are skipping out.
[00:11:37] Olivia: They need to be doing more of the work. Right? And so that idea of, you know, having them ask and be be in an inquiry mindset. Also, I've been having conversations with math coaches around; give the kids the answer right away and say, what could this be? Sometimes, uh, but working backwards and showing and representing their thinking in a variety of ways to show that it's not about the answer always.
[00:12:05] Olivia: It's about our thinking and the way to get there. So it's just interesting. Um, my jam is E.L.A., though. It's not math. And that's why I was excited to have you as a guest. And something you said once is that we put a lot more restrictions on math than we do the ELA world. So could you speak to that?
[00:12:26] Olivia: What, what restrictions do we put on math that aren't always apparent?
[00:12:33] José: Societally, we recognize that, um, if we told somebody that they're illiterate, it's insulting and or it's a societal and endemic problem that we all need to face. Uh, and, you know, we read now how many, how often people say, well, the kid can't read, they can't read, they can't read.
[00:12:51] José: But, when we translate the same conversation for mathematics, oh, I'm not a math person, like, math is not my jam. And I'm like, okay, well, that's hard to say because I often find myself saying, you know, I came in, yes, as a, computer science major from Syracuse. But I was interested in teaching social studies and actually that was my jam for like twelve odd years during my K-12 career until, um, I was basically asked, like, there’s just no way you could be a social studies teacher, you’d have to be a math teacher, or you can’t be a teacher at all. At which case, okay, no problem!
[00:13:33] José: But what I learned is that I am a teacher of students. And so, I could consistently, like, teach any classroom, and I've taught English, um, in spots, and it went well, mainly because I knew how to teach students. I think I would just add, when it comes to math, like, we have, unfortunately, a societal situation where it's okay if you don't know enough math.
[00:13:59] José: Um, and so that's the way that unfortunately people, uh, give themselves permission to be, uh, played or fooled when it comes to societal things. So, you know, when you see graphs on a TV screen, for example, but the Y axis doesn't actually align to what's being said. Or you see these big sharp drops and you're like, wait, like these scales don't make sense.
[00:14:26] José: Or when, like, you're trying to determine the difference between like a third and a fourth. And you're like, wait, uh, this doesn't make sense in terms of what I'm supposed to get or what I'm supposed to get back. Or even what the grocery store said they were going to give me versus not. Like they're just different deceptions.
[00:14:41] José: And so when you're sharper about your mathematical quandaries, then you can make some pretty good calculations quickly. I mean, those of us who are from New York City, for example, if you're crossing the street and, um, it's not your turn to do so, like you're doing a lot of math very quickly in a short amount of time as to whether or not you're going to make it across the street, right?.
[00:15:01] José: You're calculating distances, you're calculating rates of change. You're calculating the rates of change of the car that might be coming through different ways. Yeah, that we navigate a lot of this stuff. And so, um, I, I usually try to challenge people to say, like, if we try to think about the whole back to basics question, then, you know, English would be looked at as like, oh, if you can read this manual, then you are sufficiently literate.
[00:15:29] José: Um, as opposed to, oh, you're supposed to read the classics, the canon and whatever that is, you couldn't read it you know, Shakespeare, Baldwin, Morrison, none of that stuff. Like you'd have to read, um, just basic, you know, instruction manuals, and that would be sufficient for your literacy, but that's not because that would, that would be, that would be a problem.
[00:15:46] José: But when it comes to math, oh, if you just know like multipli(cation) no-you know, if you know, additional subtraction and some multiplication and some division, then you're good for society. But that's not going to be sufficient for what we see already as like really rapid change, especially with technology.
[00:16:03] Olivia: You’re speaking to something so big. So I want to just pause and linger here for a moment because it's giving our students, well, first for ourselves, understanding the why behind what we're teaching: content area. And I'm going to rethink, like I am a math person, José, you know, I, I don't want, I don't want to discount that for myself.
[00:16:24] Olivia: When I say it's not my jam, maybe I don't feel as comfy with coaching people around math, but I think that if we believe in ourselves, then we can go forth.
[00:15:46] José: Oh, yeah.
[00:16:34] Olivia: Here's the thing though, it's, if we understand the why you just so beautifully articulated a myriad of reasons that we need to be mathematicians. And this is how mathematicians live in the real world. It's the same thing for our historians, for our social studies teachers. How do historians live in the real world? They're not doing guided notes. They're not sitting around watching a PowerPoint. Nope. That's not how they live. Right?
[00:17:06] Olivia: So that idea of the real-world application; that would scoop me up. And it would have when I was in math classrooms years ago. Like, this is why you need this, um, it's huge. One of your quotes, I'm going to read it directly, um, “Must the truth reveal itself in our society’s inequities, or can we teach children about them so we can collectively take action against it.”
[00:17:30] Olivia: And those words resonated so deeply within my heart because we have power as teachers to help our students understand that these patterns that are perpetuated, that they can have a voice in stopping as well as our collective voice as teachers. Um, and yet I know teaching is pretty lonely sometimes, if you allow it to be.
[00:17:57] José: Yeah.
[00:17:57] Olivia: We can close our door; we can slog through the day, period after period. And, um, you speak to this notion of classrooms being interconnected. José, it cannot be that a kid wins the lottery if they have you as a teacher. It needs to be that they win the lottery no matter what classroom they walk into.
[00:18:20] Olivia: Right?
[00:18:20] José: Correct.
[00:18:20] Olivia: So I would love for listeners to hear you speak to how our classrooms are interconnected and why this has a direct impact on our children.
[00:18:31] José: I thank you for that. I want to speak to hopefully three quick levels since I know this is a podcast and not like my own speech. But first is that we understand that teachers are usually hired by some sort of agency at the state level.
[00:18:46] José: And so we have a set of criteria by which every teacher has to be hired. Um, of course, you know, this, you know, there is some sort of conversation about like independent schools or, you know, even charter schools, so on. But generally, like, even they have to kind of follow what a teacher is supposed to look like from whatever the agency is.
[00:19:05] José: And they are usually aligned in the same way. And so in that way, if you have a general body that says this is what a teacher is supposed to do, that we're all interconnected in that way. So that's one. The second is that, um, what the best schools that I've seen, and that includes on the international level, usually, uh, keep an open-door policy so that more teachers can collaborate with each other and talk about the same sets of students same sets of issues and even across disciplines can actually have the conversation more interconnectedly.
[00:19:39] José: And so when you find yourself. like having weak moments, it's easy to say, you know, I just need to get stronger shoulders instead of saying, let's just get more shoulders together, so we can band together. When, and this actually has real ramifications for like disciplinary action. For example, when we consistently send the same so-called bad students to that one teacher, who's really good with them, as opposed to everybody learning from each other for how to, you know, we can address a consistent behavioral issues or even academic issues.
[00:20:11] José: So on and so forth. I think the third, though, is that like, you know, I don't see myself as just a teacher of like one set of students. I see myself as like, you know, if I do something well, then that gives the next teacher another opportunity to do well as well. Whether it's the teacher who comes right after my period or the teacher who comes right after the year that I teach them or even in more societally.
[00:20:38] José: Like when the students go out there, and they've learned something from me, do they, you know, use it when they're in the communities, when they're in their workplaces, when they're in, like, you know, traveling somewhere, like, we inevitably instill something within our students that helps them along the way, one way, shape, or form.
[00:20:56] José: Even if it's the size of a pebble or as big as like a huge rock, like we are a part of allowing our students to be their best selves. And so for teachers, I feel like, yes, it can get very lonely, but there's a couple of things that we could do. One is obviously like, just talk to the teacher next door or, you know, those teachers who we can, and it can be a small set of people that just kind of come together and say, yo, we need to help each other out.
[00:21:19] José: And I mean, we have so many different ways of addressing this from a community perspective. I mean, I'm fortunate so I've built my own community within online spaces, but wherever two or more of us are gathered, I think we can just do so amazing, so much amazing work. Whether it's from the digital perspective or face-to-face. But that's kind of what I'm seeing with the connections is that we have more opportunities to be connected, especially in moments of strife, especially moments of a hardship. So…
[00:21:45] Olivia: Yeah, and the work I was doing this week, I was working with, uh, social studies, science, math, E.L.A. teachers all together, uh, doing some curriculum planning work for next year. And my favorite conversations were with teachers that were thinking humanities-wise. And so it's the E.L.A. class sitting next to social studies and saying, you know, what patterns can we illuminate for children through literature and historical time periods and do this spiral, gorgeous spiral effect, so that they see how all different perspectives are represented throughout history with all different types of texts.
[00:22:23] Olivia: Like primary sources alongside a novel like Night. So, I think that the idea of collaboration, you've cracked that open because it's not just sitting in your silo of content area. It's really, you know, what is our professional capital? As a staff, as a community, and how can we lift our students up so that they become the humans that we want caring for us when we are older as humans?
[00:22:52] Olivia: And that, I just, I think that's what public education is about. And that's why I've followed your work, because that's that common core value system that I appreciate with you. Yeah. Um, and so, something that you, you are so highly regarded as a teacher, not just a math teacher, but just as an educator out in the field.
[00:23:16] Olivia: And one of my favorite things you've said recently is that you had given a speech to, I think it was 100 fifth graders, José? That was pretty recent. And I thought, holy cow, you know. And, um, this past week we had teachers as part of the reflection, write, go on the website, uh, Future Me. And they had to write a letter to them future, their future selves.
[00:23:40] Olivia: So I always love to ask guests for, you know, what is our call to action? And I think of that idea of dear future José, you know, what's, what's the call to action that you see that's on your radar? I know you worked through this summer, but you know, for next school year, what, what do we need to do to support you as a teacher?
[00:24:04] José: This is a, it's a hard conversation. I think the one thing that I would want for future me is to, um, continue to build our community and ensure that, you know, community understands, like, the way that we need to do this work together. Um, it's been hard because we understand that, you know, teachers are leaving in droves and that's been a lot of the work there.
[00:24:33] José: And then we also recognize too that there are a lot of people who are demoralized because of the ways that we never really addressed systemic inequities even before the pandemic and the pandemic only exacerbated it. Right? And we're still living in this wildness, you know, to this day, including, you know, the effects of climate change and how they're changing our skies, changing our air, changing our water.
[00:24:56] José: Like it's wild. Um, But I do think that, you know, in those moments when we are at our most desperate, we need to continually lean on notions of hope and because that's what educators do consistently, like when we first learned how to teach it was like, if you can affect one child, then you're doing a good job.
[00:25:21] José: And it's like, No, actually, I want to affect thirty kids at a time. I want to do every single. And so the only way I could have, like, even gotten that far as to say, okay, what are some stories that can like, figure out and pick from what I'm doing that are going to keep me motivated to keep me going.
[00:25:44] José: And so for me, I found that like, as I kept doing this work whether it was 100, now it's over 1000 students, so on, like it was always this notion that I could find these moments where I said, yeah, I affect the change in this way. And even though I humbly accept that I am just a part of that change, I get to still be a part of that story. I get to be a part of that change. And so, um, continuing leaning on that hope and that story and that community that allows me to continue to do this work.
[00:26:09] José: And I think people trust me to teach like, and people trust us to teach. So, um, even though I'm not like, fully in the classroom in the ways that like, I could have been, I still think like when there are students who still reach back out to me and be like, well, I just graduated after four years of high school.
[00:26:28] José: I just graduated from four years of college. I just, I'm going to my, I'm going to become a teacher. It's like, oh, so like, I think I did something because you respect; your first thought after you became a teacher was to reach back out to me and say, like, you did this, which says a lot. So, and I know a lot of people have those kind of stories.
[00:26:46] José: And I wish we would do more to uplift those type of stories, though, those acts of change and how we were able to build out.
[00:26:55] Olivia: Well that's another thing that's my favorite about you is that you're a storyteller. So your blog illuminates issues, um, that we're facing in public education. And yeah, it's told through this beautiful narrative around stories and your perspective as an educator. And that's, it's just fabulous. So what is the best way that I can make sure that Schoolutions listeners get in touch with you and make sure they’re reading your blog like I have been?
[00:27:23] José: I'm so thankful for this. Um, thejosévilson.com is my website. It has the access to all my other like spaces, including yes, I am The José Wilson on Instagram on The José Wilson on Twitter, and more recently, you know,TikTok, which has been kind of wild, but I'm taking it and The José Wilson on, um, on Facebook as well.
[00:27:44] José: But of course, if you're, you know, more inspired to go into deeper work, we are building our EduColor movement. That's EduColor.org or EduColorMvmt on your social media platforms. I'm on LinkedIn, too. So, and for some reason that people who are loving that space too. So I'll just give a shout-out to all of those.
[00:28:02] José: And, um, anyway, more importantly, I am hype- responsive and people know this about me, like I will respond to emails uh, tweets, so on and so forth. So feel free to reach out to me, uh, if you have serious inquiries and those sorts of things, like I'm here for it. So thank you.
[00:28:18] Olivia: Yeah. And I appreciate how active you are on social because your reels pop up in my feed and I'm like, that's what I needed. That was the dose of inspiration I needed. Um, and your website is a plethora of amazing information. So I will make sure to link all of that in the show notes. Uh, José, it's been an honor to have you as a guest, and I can't wait to continue following you and be inspired by you as an educator in this field.
[00:28:45] Olivia: We're lucky to have you doing this important work. Thank you.
[00:28:49] José: Thank you for having me. And best of luck with this wonderful project.
[00:28:52] Olivia: Thank you. Take care.
[00:28:53] José: Take care.
[00:28:53] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, José Vilson. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.