Ever wonder what it feels like to be a teacher who has to worry about being inclusive and ensuring all children feel safe within their classroom? Teacher Katie Rinderle sure does. As an American former elementary school teacher in Cobb County, Georgia, Katie is the first known public school teacher fired under Georgia's 2022 student protection laws for reading aloud Scott Stuart’s book, My Shadow is Purple, to her students. Join Katie, Scott, and Dr. Roberta Price Gardner as they share their hopes for the global future of inclusive education impacting the lives of our children, public education systems, and higher education.
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Teacher Katie Rinderle:
Connect and Learn with Dr. Roberta Price Gardner:
Connect and Learn with Author Scott Stuart:
#teachinclusion #teachinclusive #inclusiveeducation #standwithkatie #myshadowispurple #myshadowispink #teachersfollowsteachers
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Ever wonder what it feels like to be a teacher who has to worry about being inclusive and ensuring all children feel safe within their classroom? Teacher Katie Rinderle sure does. As an American former elementary school teacher in Cobb County, Georgia, Katie is the first known public school teacher fired under Georgia's 2022 student protection laws for reading aloud Scott Stuart’s book, My Shadow is Purple, to her students. Join Katie, Scott, and Dr. Roberta Price Gardner as they share their hopes for the global future of inclusive education impacting the lives of our children, public education systems, and higher education.
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Teacher Katie Rinderle:
Connect and Learn with Dr. Roberta Price Gardner:
Connect and Learn with Author Scott Stuart:
#teachinclusion #teachinclusive #inclusiveeducation #standwithkatie #myshadowispurple #myshadowispink #teachersfollowsteachers
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. And, before we jump in to this incredible conversation, it is important to note that the thoughts and opinions expressed on this platform by Roberta Price Gardner, a faculty member at Kennesaw State University, are solely those of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the stance or views of the institution.
[00:00:37] Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl, and I am humbled to welcome my guests today, Katie Rinderle, Scott Stuart, and Dr. Roberta Price Gardner. Let me tell you a little bit about them. Katie Rinderle is a 10-year veteran educator and gifted specialist from Cobb County, Georgia. I have the gift of calling Katie both a colleague and a friend after following her story since February of this year.
[00:01:03] Olivia: Dr. Roberta Price Gardner is an associate professor of reading and literacy education at Kennesaw State University in the state of Georgia. And Scott Stuart is a best-selling children's book author who is committed to creating content that empowers young kids. His books have appeared on numerous best-seller lists across the globe.
[00:01:26] Olivia: I don't think I could possibly articulate how honored I am to have Schoolutions be holding this space for this important conversation. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Katie, Scott, and Roberta. Thank you for being here.
[00:01:42] Roberta: Thank you.
[00:01:42] Katie: Thank you for having us.
[00:01:43] Scott: Thanks so much for having us!
[00:01:46] Olivia:. I always name an issue, um, and it's the reason that I am honored to have you as guests. Right now, um, in the (United) States, many states nationwide are passing censorship legislation that is under the guise of protecting children. Um, but that's just it; it's under the guise. It's not truly with that intent. And the solution is all of you, because you are the folks that are brave, you're inclusive, and you're advocating for being allies to the LGBTQIA+ community, um, as well as just standing up for what's right for children.
[00:02:28] Olivia: So, um, I am excited to have a conversation today. Before we jump in, I love to ask guests who inspiring educators are from their lives. Uh, Katie, would you start us off?
[00:02:44] Katie: Sure. You know, I have had many inspiring educators that I've come across, but the one that stands out the most is Dr. Gardner. Uh, she was my most recent teacher-educator. And, you know, speaking as a former student, I have been so lucky to have her show me how not only to support her students, but to really show up. Show up with advocacy and education, um, and really the fact that she is helping to form our future generations of educators in a time where that is so critical.
[00:03:20] Katie: I mean, what is not inspiring about that, right? So, um, she truly is amazing and she has helped me through so much and she inspires me every day.
[00:03:32] Olivia: Wonderful. Dr. Gardner, how about you?
[00:03:35] Roberta: That's so sweet, Katie, to say that. Um, no doubt, you know, not to be cliche, but I told Katie this, um, when I started to, um, actively support her, right?
[00:03:49] Roberta: So as an educator, you're supporting your students in ways that are aligned with, you know, academics and preparedness. Um, but Katie has inspired me because, right, this idea of the ivory tower, Katie smoked me out. Right? So you can't just be in the ivory tower and say that you do advocacy work. You really do need to be boots on the ground.
[00:04:17] Olivia: Yes.
[00:04:17] Roberta: And our boots on the ground in the academy cannot just be at conferences, right, and safe havens. Um, they, you know, it has to be a school board meetings. It has to be, you know, in the field. And so for that reason, I'm going to say you definitely Katie and, and also a shout out to a former educator I had. Dr. Anita O'Neal at Clark Atlanta University was the person who turned me on to African American children's literature and children's literature that was inclusive.
[00:04:52] Roberta: Um, and so, you know, that was really a spark. And so I think, uh, those two educators are, are it for me, uh, in this moment. So, thank you for asking that question, Olivia.
[00:05:03] Olivia: Absolutely. Scott, how about you?
[00:05:07] Scott: Uh, you know, I would have always said, uh, I had this one teacher when I was a kid, Mr. D. I don't even remember his full name. I just always called him Mr. D, um, who was amazing, but since becoming a parent, um, my son in what we call prep here in Australia, which is kind of like grade zero, you know, before grade one, he had this teacher, Mr. Coleman, who was just absolutely spectacular. He was so inclusive. He was so kind. He took this very nervous kid who was struggling with a few things and just gave him so much love and so much space to be completely himself.
[00:05:52] Scott: Uh, we're still really great friends with him now. And I still feel really uncomfortable calling him Tim. You know, I'm like, it's Mr. Coleman. And I don't know if that ever leaves, you know? Um, but yeah, he would definitely be, you know, the most inspiring, uh, teacher that's been like directly in our lives.
[00:06:12] Olivia: Wonderful. Wonderful. Um, so I, I think what listeners have to know, um, I want to start with Katie and Katie as a teacher myself, I think it's critical that we have a core, a solid core around what do we believe to be true as teachers and how does that show up in classroom practices? Um, and I've been working on this, um, for myself over the last couple of years as a teacher.
[00:06:41] Olivia: And, um, I, I want to start with that, you know, what do you believe to be true as a teacher, and how does it show up in your classroom practice?
[00:06:52] Katie: Everything that I do is deeply rooted in being a student-centered and inclusive classroom environment. Um, I feel that when students are at the center of their learning, it only enriches the environment for everybody.
[00:07:06] Katie: So, you know, that looks like, you know, engaging students in real-world application alongside critical literacy, truly showing them ways to bring in those experiences, their, their own experiences, their own funds of knowledge, and that being the core of, of our learning. Um, you know, literature, literacy, that is something that is obviously part of all of my practices, um, day-in and day-out, whether it was in that, in the classroom setting, when I taught primary intermediate grades, or even as a gifted specialist. Um, really provoking students and their critical thinking, asking questions, challenging one another, challenging me, you know, that is what makes me excited to go to work every day.
[00:07:55] Katie: That is what I continue to learn from and I mean, I have the best job, right? So, uh, all of the practices that I'm, that I'm fortunate to be able to provide my students truly are centered around them.
[00:08:09] Olivia: And so, I hear you saying, you know, critical thinking, and I think something right now that's happening worldwide is folks are way too eager to have debate over discourse.
[00:08:22] Olivia: And when I think of discourse, it's really being a listener and understanding other people's perspectives and where people are coming from and, um, who they are. So, I need to pause with all that you just said, because I think listeners would be shocked to know that you were recently fired. And, um, this is something I've been following your journey, your story, since February, when you were put on leave, but, um, you know, I want people to hear from you. You were fired primarily under Georgia's 2022 Student Protection Laws.
[00:09:02] Olivia: So what happened? What in the world happened?
[00:09:09] Katie: Well, let's jump right in. So, um, I am a gifted specialist, so I serve students in first through fifth grades and in March, I was teaching fifth-grade students, and they were given the opportunity. We have read alouds every week. It's kind of how we start our day with each other after they return from their special areas.
[00:09:28] Katie: So I had purchased a lot of books the month prior to this morning. And one of them being My Shadow is Purple written by Scott. And yes, that is it! And I had a bin of books, and I spread them across the front of my room, and like I said, it's giving students choice. I allowed them the opportunity to vote on the books that they wanted to read. And My Shadow is Purple had the majority vote.
[00:09:56] Katie: So, we read the book, and then students were able to reflect with one another, and then they all created a shadow poem of their own. Two days later, I was called into my principal's office, and it was brought to my attention that a parent had complained, that this; I read a divisive book. I had broken some divisive policy, and that following Monday I was placed on administrative leave.
[00:10:23] Katie: That followed an investigation that lasted all the way until May. And that's when I was made aware that I was being recommended for termination, um, in the district.
[00:10:37] Olivia: So, uh, when I, when I knew of all of this, that it happened to you, um, I talked to my own children often about you and your journey because they know I'm a teacher and, um, that I believe in advocacy and being an ally.
[00:10:55] Olivia: And then I received a message from Dr. Gardner, um, coincidentally, months after I started following your journey. Um, so I know that's my connection with you, even though I knew of you and what was happening. Scott, how did you become aware of Katie and connect with her originally?
[00:11:21] Scott: It had kind of come at an interesting time because, uh, here in Australia, you know, I had just had a few uh, library visits, um, like author visits cancelled because of, uh, big right-wing protests and, uh, like they were going to turn up and, like, harass everybody and all that sort of stuff and, uh, one of my books had just been in the uh, Parliament with a big, you know, similar situation going on here.
[00:11:52] Scott: Uh, and so when I got the email, uh, I often will receive an email like that and just go, oh, this is someone trying to get something out of me and delete, you know, uh, but it kind of came at the right time and I read it and immediately responded.
[00:12:09] Scott: And that's when I really became aware of it. And then, uh, I don't know when it was, maybe around June, whenever it was, uh, put publicly, uh, by the, uh, the, the law center, uh, I just started getting 8,000 social media tags, you know, a day, uh, on this, uh, situation, but I was, you know, glad to be already across it. But yeah, it, it really came at such an interesting time when this was just happening, you know, both here, there are, it had come at the same time there had been three or four other issues in America at the same time with my books.
[00:12:47] Scott: Um, so it kind of all just happened at that one time.
[00:12:51] Olivia: Yeah. So let's go to that segue. What inspires you as an author? Why did you write this book in particular? I'll show everyone again. It's a beautiful book and all of your books; I'm a number one fan. Um, and so what inspires you and why did you write this book in particular?
[00:13:14] Scott: So, I wrote this book because I have another book called My Shadow is Pink, which is based on my own son. It's about a young boy who, uh, likes things that we have traditionally deemed, you know, culturally feminine. Uh, and it's about his journey of accepting himself. And mostly it's really about his dad's journey of getting over his own biases and accepting his son.
[00:13:36] Scott: And every time I would go and do a reading of this to a group of kids, we'd always finish the book and I would say, you know, what color are your shadows? And kids immediately, they'd say, my shadow is yellow. My shadow is gold with a unicorn horn and a rainbow tail. And like, they'd have this huge variety of answers.
[00:13:57] Scott: And this one event that I went to, I happened to be the person; I wasn't the person reading the book. I was sitting back listening, which was already awkward because, you know, I don't like hearing my own books read to me. Um, and I, uh, I was listening and they finished the book and the educator then said, okay, everybody, what color are your shadows?
[00:14:16] Scott: And kids started to answer and the educator said, well, no, no, no, uh, blue or pink, which one would your shadows be? And they immediately like gave the kids these two specific categories to choose between. Uh, and you could see like every kid suddenly had to change their entire thought process and answer just to fit themselves in these two boxes.
[00:14:40] Scott: Uh, so that was really the impetus to start, uh, really researching, uh, the topic, um, that you can call like being non-binary, um, you know, and you're existing outside the binary of like blue and pink. And, uh, yeah, it, I don't know how long, a year later I finished writing, uh, the book, but that was really the impetus for it.
[00:15:07] Scott: Uh, because as an author, I really want to inspire kids. To be able to be themselves, but also to be able to see other people in the books that they read. I know that I am one of the extraordinarily fortunate, you know, people who can see themselves in any piece of media on Earth. You know, I'm a straight white dude.
[00:15:31] Scott: Um, so, basically any book, you know, that we pick up will have me in it, you know? Um, so I want kids to be able to see kids who aren't like them, uh, to develop that empathy, to help them become more kind. Um, but also I really want kids who don't fit into that very, very narrow, narrow categorization that we've placed on kids to be able to see themselves.
[00:15:55] Olivia: Yeah, uh, thank you so much for that background. Um, and I also, I continue to go back to a conversation I have or had, um, with Morgan Jackson, who is an English teacher in Las Vegas, Nevada. And her words always continue to bounce around in my mind. And she said to me, Livi, if we're removing books from our classrooms, it's not about the book.
[00:16:21] Olivia: It's giving the message to any child that resonates with that book that they don't belong. So you can keep pulling these books, but we're sending our children some really scary messages of, you know, who gets to sit at the table, who gets to be part of a group and who is excluded. Um, so these messages are scary to me, um, as a mom, as a teacher, as an ally. And Roberta, I know Katie did say that you are an inspiring educator in her life. How did you connect with Katie originally? She's given us a bit of history and then I want to pivot and ask for you to share how has this Georgia legislation impacted you as a professor? Because I'm sure it has.
[00:17:17] Roberta: Yeah, no doubt. Um, so my introduction to Katie, um, you know, I teach in the graduate program at the university where I am, and Katie was a student in a course, um, that is entitled Trends and Issues in Literacy Education. And, um, during, I think it was the middle model, like the fourth model, um, I always switch out that module, and it usually is a module that reflects a trend or hot button issue.
[00:17:52] Roberta: And for the last, you know, two years, it has been banned books and censorship. Um, and so right around the time that that module started, you know, Katie, we were four weeks into the class and, you know, Katie was performing well and doing extraordinarily well as a student. But then she reached out to me, um, to let me know that I was going to be likely reading an article and hearing a little bit more about the fact that she was at the center of this controversy.
[00:18:27] Roberta: Um, and maybe, I think it was like the next weekend, Katie, that, or maybe two days later, the Southern Poverty Law Center article came out. And I just want to say that Katie had already started to respond to the issues around censorship within like the group conversation.
[00:18:54] Roberta: Um, and again, talk about that topic of bravery and courage to know that she was at the center of that and that she was willing to engage with peers who, some of whom did not agree or think that your book, Scott, was appropriate. Right, um, to read to students. Um, I thought was again, incredibly courageous of her, but she was already my student, but she became even more, you know, of a student who I felt I needed to, I don't want to say protect, right?
[00:19:36] Roberta: But just support, uh, with a lot more, uh, rigor than, you know, I would have had she not shared that intimate, reality and the roller coaster that she was going to, you know, she was already on the ride, but that it was just going to just go a lot faster. Um, so, so, you know, that was, we moved from having a student-teacher relationship to one that was a lot more um, I don't know. I'm still trying to find the words, Katie, for, for what, I think we have become, um, you know, it's a partnership, right? In a lot of ways. Um…
[00:20:19] Katie: I was going to say family.
[00:20:19] Roberta: Family in some ways.
[00:20:23] Olivia: I saw you go like this when you were talking about you give me, you know, you're like, yeah, and, and I think that that speaks volumes. It's family. It's a partnership. We have to circle up with people, um, and have each other's backs because these are hard times.
[00:20:37] Roberta: Yeah. We also, yeah, I think we also sort of had this cliche way of saying that, like our students teach us, but like, no, it really has been that kind of, um, sort of symbiotic relationship of, of her teaching me and then me teaching her and us sort of, you know, going back and forth in, in, in our dialogue and the ways that we're trying to collectively make sense of this.
[00:21:04] Roberta: And it's not something you can make sense of, right? So, to answer the second part of your question, um, it has impacted teacher education tremendously and it's not something you can make sense of for, uh, pre-service teachers or for in-service and advanced teachers like Katie. Uh, you know, Katie was, is a 10-year veteran and she, you know, she can't make sense of it.
[00:21:32] Roberta: You can't make sense of a law that was intentionally written, right, to be vague and to, to, you know, be a disruption, um, and a warning, which is what I believe this is. So, so it has created a lot of challenges in supporting and preparing teachers, um, for engaging with inclusive literature and literature at large, you know, I think any book is in danger, right? I don't think it's just an obvious book, um, that, that breaks tradition or norms, any book is in danger.
[00:22:09] Olivia: Well, and I'm going to lean on the word fear right now. I think that sometimes, uh, fear is evoked to quiet voices and Katie, you know, I'm going to ask you now to catch us up. You're put on leave. Um, you were recommended for termination and then fast forward, um, what has happened now? Where are you with your status as a teacher?
[00:22:38] Katie: So after I was recommended for termination, we went towards a different process. I went, um, through our tribunal hearing. So typically the board members of our school district sit on, on the, I guess, a jury. You know, they will listen to both sides and, um, that was actually changed a bit.
[00:22:58] Katie: We had a tribunal. So, there was a hand-picked tribunal, hand-picked by the superintendent. And it was a two-day hearing. It was very long, um, that we heard from the districts, um, a principal, I heard from some parents and the tribunal ultimately decided that I should not be fired. Um, two days after that, the school board had overturned that decision and decided to go ahead and fire me.
[00:23:26] Katie: And so that led to this next step, which is we are currently appealing that decision to The State Board of Education. And that's where we currently are. But, you know, through all of that, I have heard from parents and students, my own students. Um, I think that's been the most challenging part is, you know, hearing how it has impacted students. My students, students across our district, I mean, they, these are fiercely brave and brilliant individuals.
[00:24:01] Katie: And just last week, I saw them show up to our school board meeting and speak and they held a press conference. They organized other students. I mean, these students are remarkable. And in this process of waiting on my own case, that's kind of something that brings me some hope and it's very empowering is to see how students are responding and, um, you know, in the face of intimidation and in the face of hatred, you know, they are, they are sharing what they envision for education.
[00:24:35] Olivia: They are. And I, um, had the experience, I'm going to call it an experience of watching the footage from last week's board meeting and watching the children, um, and grownups, you know, speak and share their perspectives was so incredibly moving.
[00:24:55] Olivia: Um, and I, I just, I do have hope, um, but you know, many of us are not standing in your shoes right now, um, and you are continuing to show up, which has been incredible. Um, and we have had conversations, just us of how, you know, what inspires you and what keeps you going. And I know what keeps me going on a daily basis, is it's the kids um, because you know, they're, they're the future.
[00:25:24] Olivia:. So we have to help them have a voice. Um, so, you know, I think to support you, to support your advocacy, you know, what's the best way to get in touch with each of you because you're, each of you are an ally in your own way. So, Scott, um, you have a magnificent website, um, and you are quite active on social. I love your reels. I love your posts; they're engaging and lovely. So, what's the best way for us to support you and connect?
[00:25:57] Scott: Oh, look, I think the best way in this situation, would be to direct that support to Katie, um, and to everything that's happening over there. Um, uh, you can jump on my social media if you like, but I think direct it towards Katie.
[00:26:13] Scott: Um, but actually, is it okay if I ask a question? Um, Katie, I don't; there's something that I really don't understand. I don't understand, like the education board said, don't fire Katie. Like that, like the school said, we have to push this through the education board. The education board said, don't fire Katie. Then the school board said, we're going to fire you anyway. Is this legal? Like, I don't understand. Maybe it's just because I'm not from America. Like, I don't understand how this process can happen.
[00:26:44] Katie: So good question. Um, in the entire history of our school board, we've never voted on the process for educators. And the tribunal was three prior or prior administrators in our district. They have retired and now sit on tribunals, usually for student, student affairs, and student disciplinary meetings. But ultimately, the way that that works with due process, it goes back to the board for the final say. So the tribunal was selected to hear it and then was given to the board and the board decided to uphold the superintendent's original recommendation. So they do have the authority to overturn the tribunal's decision.
[00:27:32] Scott: Does, does like, cause it sounds like it was; I'm so sorry for taking over these questions.
[00:27:40] Olivia: No, you’re fine.
[00:27:40] Katie: No, like I…
[00:27:43] Scott: Cause it sounds like one parent can hold so much power. You know, I know here if I was to complain about something happening in, uh, my son's classroom, I'd pretty much be told to get over it. You know, um, it seems like there's like one power, one parent can bring a complaint, which then over rules like any positive things. Is that how it works?
[00:28:12] Olivia: I think it depends on where you are in the States. Um, and that's what makes it quite challenging. Um, I live in New York state and, um, I live in a place that is very inclusive and attend and um, everyone is welcome to share their perspectives and viewpoints and be heard, but it's very rare that a book would be banned where I live. Katie, I think it's maybe different for you.
[00:28:44] Katie: Right, last year we had um, the trio of bills passed and one of them being the, the Parental Rights and how that has been deciphered and used seems that we're continuously asking Dr. Gardner, she's asking, you know, which parents or, you know, which students are being protected? Which parents' rights are being considered?
[00:29:07] Katie: And, um, in this case, the parents that did come out and email the district, email the parents or sorry, the administrators on behalf of myself and then also for an inclusive education and in support of reading your book, those, those emails were pretty much responded to by saying, thanks for sharing your concerns, um, and then never given to us.
[00:29:36] Katie: So, it does, we continue to ask, you know, which parents are we talking about? And I think that that says so much. And that's the problem with, with these type of laws, these anti-education laws and these parental rights, you know, which parents. And I think that we can see which parents.
[00:29:58] Scott: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
[00:30:01] Roberta: You know, it, it is, it is place, right? Olivia, like you mentioned, it is place. But it's also, uh, you know, the parent, right? So, you, you can be in the same county or district that Katie taught in, but if you're a parent who looks like me. You know, you are unlikely to have your concerns validated. So…
[00:30:27] Scott: Yeah, okay.
[00:30:29] Katie: We're seeing parents show up to school board meetings and speaking on behalf of their children. And not just the students are showing up, but the actual parents are also showing up. And, you know, they're not being responded to and really being dismissed. So that brings a whole. different set of issues that we are trying to address and bring awareness to.
[00:30:51] Scott: Yeah. Is the primary focus on books that are supportive of the LGBTQ+ community? Is that the, the drive or is there like a racial component? You know, is it like, is it just anything that's not, you know, what are the books that are primarily being targeted in the U.S. right now?
[00:31:12] Katie: An attack on diverse and inclusive and affirming literature. So, books that are written by black authors, by, um, authors of, you know, color across the board, uh, representative of, um, LGBTQ+ communities. These are books that are sharing diverse stories and voices. Dr. Gardner can really…
[00:31:38] Olivia: Yes.
[00:31:39] Katie: …dive into that and let you kind of take some of that over.
[00:31:42] Roberta: Well no, I mean, Katie, you, you, um, you nailed it and you were in that unit and, you know, Katie wrote a really wonderful paper about policy and inclusive books. And during Katie's trial, um, one of the books that they used, um, to, to talk about her “prior history” of reading books that she had no business reading, was a parent complained about, um, Stacey Abrams’s book, um, the title, Stacey's Big Words.
[00:32:15] Katie: (Stacey’s) Extraordinary Words, yes.
[00:32:16] Roberta: Extraordinary Words, yeah.
[00:32:17] Katie: It’s a book about a spelling bee.
[00:32:19] Roberta: Yeah, um, they complained about Katie, one parent, right? Is that correct, Katie? Complained that Katie had read that book. Um…
[00:32:28] Katie: They had not read the book and did not know what the book was about, but it was; they said that it was by a divisive person.
[00:32:36] Scott: Yeah, that makes sense. It's, it's, it's funny because you know, I feel as though here, one of the big shifts, um culturally has been, you know, we went from the nineties where certain communities, uh, like we're featured in media, but mostly to be laughed at, you know, to be the butt of the joke. And now that those communities are being treated with respect in media, now there's a lot of problems, you know? Like I, I remember growing up and I would see, um, you know, gay couples on TV all the time, but they were the joke, you know. Um, and now that, you know, we want you to just accept them as people, you know, now, now that that's too much to ask, you know, um, is that kind of the shift that's happened similarly in the U.S.?
[00:33:30] Olivia: That's an interesting perspective. Um, and I would say, yes. I, I think that, um, I think that also the leadership, um, of the district speaks volumes of how the district is run - specific school districts. And, um, I think that that's a lot of power that’s held.
[00:33:53] Scott: Yeah, my son is in, in school right now. They are reading a book about a refugee, um, to Australia, like a, uh, somebody who came from another country to Australia. Um, and it's all about women's rights and how like she was, you're not allowed to do anything in her, uh, former country. Um, and hearing the conversations that my son has now, like when he comes home and he's talking about all these, you know, issues is so fascinating. I think it's beautiful. Um, but I also recognize as I was listening to him talking about it, I couldn't help, but also think about like Katie and, you know, I was like would this, like, would they allow this book, you know, to be discussed, you know, where, you know, where you are, you know what I mean?
[00:34:44] Katie: It's embarrassing. No...
[00:34:45] Olivia: Katie, what is the best way that we can support you? People who love you and want to support you have started a GoFundMe, um, and I will put the link in the show notes, but how can we support you with advocacy work?
[00:34:59] Katie: Really just kind of, that kind of goes along with our call to action. Um. If you want to jump kind of merge those two, but really kind of like what Dr. Gardner said, like a lot of this starts in those grassroots efforts and showing up for board meetings, being aware of what's going on in your district, being aware of policies that are being put in place that are, you know, on the books,
[00:35:26] Katie: Um, really staying informed, even writing letters to the editor. Some people are saying, especially teachers who are scared to speak out. You know, you can write an anonymous letter to the editor, really bringing awareness to these issues and advocating for education for your teachers, for students, and for inclusive education.
[00:35:50] Katie: A lot of people are either not aware or are just kind of finding out and even in my own area. So I have found that has been a little surprising and people nationwide and all the way over by where Scott is are aware. And then I'll go down the road and somebody has not even heard of that where we are.
[00:36:10]Olivia: It's fascinating.
[00:36:10] Katie: So, so, um, also empowering your children, kind of making them aware of their rights. Um, giving power to their voices. Voting. I could say that a million times. Voting for people who are pro-education for, you know, knowing who is coming up on those elections. There's so many things that we can all do. I think that it really does start in a grassroots, um, at a level.
[00:36:39] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And that can be seen with the board meeting last week. Um, you know, people are showing up and I think that's magnificent. Um, Dr. Gardner, you know, what's the best way we can advocate and support for higher education and the work you're doing with educators?
[00:36:58] Roberta: I mean, I think advocating for higher education is definitely a larger issue right now. Um, there's a progressive, really a progressive erosion of, of the civic mission of public, public schools. Um, and so again, I think it is showing up for school board meetings, knowing when those meetings are. Um, in higher education, you know, I think the workforce for teachers is, is eroding.
[00:37:28] Roberta: Many people know, um, that there is a teacher shortage. I think if you want to advocate for um, as Katie said, pro-education, um, then you need to make sure that you're supporting teachers. Um, and you're supporting teachers in their mission to actually educate children and not, you know, in the state of Georgia, they keep using the word indoctrinate, right? It's like we're indoctrinating teachers though, and we are not helping them to be as well read. As you know, they want to be, and the reason I'm saying that is because increasingly, in the state of Georgia, they are telling educators and teacher educators what they can and cannot teach to teachers. Right?
[00:38:21] Roberta: So, it's just being politically active is just critical right now. Voting these people out who have been voted in, um, because the detriment is just real. There's a detriment to education. It's a detriment to, um, you know, our profession. I could go on and on, but, but I'll, I'll just sort of stop there. Um, yeah. Um, and, and support Katie, follow Katie's case. Um, it's not over. I think her attorneys shared, um, that this is only the beginning. And I do think that Katie's case is the proverbial canary in the coal mine, right? For teachers and teachers' ability to be able to, to teach.
[00:39:16] Olivia: Yeah, and, um, watching the footage of last week's board meeting, a student stood up. Her name is Elizabeth. She goes by Beth Hudson. And she shared that she had participated in the Helen Ruffin Reading Bowl as a participant from 4th grade to 12th grade. She graduated, um, from Cobb High School in 2023. And...um, recently that Helen Ruffin, um, is said to not be happening because teachers don't feel comfortable, um, with advocating or leading the teams, um, because of fear of being terminated for the books.
[00:39:57] Olivia: Um, but this student, Beth Hudson, uh, went on to get, she's a student getting her English degree and her words, um, are what I'd love to wrap our conversation with because. It's from a former student of the school district that had the privilege of being exposed to lots of beautiful books. Um, and these are her words:
[00:40:19] Olivia: “Everyone matters. And even though we all differ in race, religion, sexuality, class, nationality, and so much more, each student should learn acceptance, love, and most importantly, respect, in order to become a successful adult.”
[00:40:39] Olivia: Thank you, Beth Hudson. Thank you, Katie. Thank you, Roberta. Thank you, Scott, for continuing to show up and be brave and fight for acceptance, fight for love and fight for respect. Um, our kids, their children need grownups like you. And, um, I'm just grateful for this conversation and this time to talk. Thank you.
[00:41:02] Katie: I just really wanted to tell you, Scott, that so many of my own students have reached out to me after - they follow you, I think on Instagram too. And just you speaking out about this and even the parents, it has meant so much to them.
[00:41:18] Katie: And, so much so that these students were trying to start a petition at school when all of this happened and are continuing to try to advocate and start these groups in their, in their middle school. And, you know, I, it's beyond my wildest dreams that I would be here talking to you after purchasing your book from our Scholastic Book Fair.
[00:41:40] Katie: But, you know, you really have made an impact on so many, including myself. And just thank you for being the author that you are and the human that you are. And, even all the way in Australia, taking, taking a call with me and, you know, just caring it, it, it really speaks so much about who you are and I'm deeply thankful and grateful, so thank you.
[00:42:06] Scott: Well, thank you. Maybe it's because I'm not good at compliments, but I'm going to redirect that. And I'm going to say…
[00:42:14] Katie: No, nooo! You don’t need to.
[00:42:14] Scott: …no, I totally appreciate, I appreciate that, incredibly. Um, but the students, you're doing all that. It sounds like more of an impact that you have made. Um, and, you know, so I think that you should be really, really proud of the students that you have helped shape. Um, but I'll take the compliment too.
[00:42:41] Katie: Thank you. Take the compliment. I mean, just so you know, one of my students that voted for this book that day - this child, I've taught in fourth grade and then also now in fifth grade - and this child has struggled so much with anxiety this year and not, not being with me every day. It's hard, you know, it can only get that child once a week and they have tried to communicate through their sketches with me.
[00:43:03] Katie: And this day that they, we read this book, that child was beaming and told me it was the best day that they have ever had at school. And they drew their shadow, uh, with themselves with a microphone singing and, uh, drew at the bottom half with a skirt and just shared that they finally felt like they were able to not feel woe and to be able to feel their heart glow.
[00:43:28] Katie: And that it was okay to be themselves. And, like, I can't even tell you, like, how much, like, that meant to me, and I know how much that meant to their families. And I try not to get emotional, but I do get emotional because I'm a highly sensitive human being.
[00:43:45] Katie: But, um, even students that were not in my classroom, their parents, I had taught them last year. They, their parents reached out to me in wanting to support this just because, their child said that this changed them. And they have gone through bullying and all this at school and like they're, they're trying to spread awareness in a different way, but has also transitioned and now that they are in middle school. And I mean you're affirming kids in a way that is so needed and critical and yeah, it's just - thank you for writing books that let teachers like me provide spaces for students like mine to thrive and to, um, have all their needs met so that they can learn and so that they can, you know, find their place.
[00:44:34] Scott: Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
[00:44:36] Katie: I had to share that. I had to share that just so I could, but yeah.
[00:44:41] Olivia: Thank you, Katie.
[00:44:42] Scott: It's funny because you don't really, um, I, especially being an author, you know things are very removed from me, you know? Um, and I remember going and doing this reading at this school. Um, and, uh, I, uh, I never say good morning, boys and girls. I'm always like, hey, everybody! Or like, you know, something silly, mostly silly. It's usually my go-to. Um, and, uh, I don't know what it was. I think I was like the 4th or 5th person and everybody like, good morning, boys and girls, morning, boys and girls, morning, boys and girls.
[00:45:15] Scott: And it had just gotten into my head. And for some reason, like, I walked out and things. Subconsciously, it kicked in. I said, hey, Hey, boys and girls. And then, like, I heard myself and I tried to fix it, you know, after I said it, I was like, hey, boys and girls and non-binary kids and anybody else and everyone. Hey, everybody!
[00:45:41] Scott: And, uh, I remember there was this one single kid in the center of the whole auditorium and, uh, they, their mouth just like dropped open and they started crying. Um, and you know, I did the whole presentation being and they came up to me afterwards and I thought I had been really offensive or something. I thought, how have I made this child cry?
[00:46:09] Scott: Um, and they came up to me and they said, you know, this is the first time we've ever heard a person of of authority, um, uh, use the concept of a non-binary kid, you know, and it was so impactful. Um, so, you know, the inclusion stuff really matters, you know, um, and no, so I, I, it's a long way of saying, I really appreciate your words and I really appreciate everything you are doing too.
[00:46:42] Katie: Thank you. I’m terrible at responding to that too, but thank you.
[00:46:48] Olivia: Well, I, I'm grateful for all of you and all of your time and letting, um, this podcast have the honor of holding the conversation as a safe space. Um, and I'm excited for folks to learn Katie of your journey, if they don't already know about it and to feel empowered and brave because of you. So thank you, um, and thank you to Roberta and Scott as well for taking the time to be part of this conversation.
[00:47:22] Scott: No, thank you.
[00:47:23] Katie: Dream team!
[00:47:23] Roberta: Absolutely.
[00:47:24] Olivia: Dream team!
[00:47:24] Roberta: You too.
[00:47:24] Scott: Thank you so much for having us.
[00:47:25] Katie: You too.
[00:47:25] Roberta: Thank you, Olivia.
[00:47:25] Olivia: Take care!
[00:47:26] Olivia:Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guests, Katie Rinderle, Scott Stuart, and Dr. Roberta Price Gardner. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.