Certified school counselor and coach Zack Kasabo offers students, caregivers, and fellow educators strategies to manage difficult behaviors without enabling them. Zack designs behavior management plans from the ground up with all involved. Although Zack’s strategies may seem unconventional at times, he stays current on the latest behavior trends that parents and teens face to design behavior support plans tailored to individual needs.
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Zack:
#schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast #coachkasabo #schoolcounselor #coach #teenmentalhealth #traumainformed #behaviormanagement #parentingtips #challengingbehavior #kidswithanxiety #communitycoaching #teachers #teachersfollowsteachers
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Certified school counselor and coach Zack Kasabo offers students, caregivers, and fellow educators strategies to manage difficult behaviors without enabling them. Zack designs behavior management plans from the ground up with all involved. Although Zack’s strategies may seem unconventional at times, he stays current on the latest behavior trends that parents and teens face to design behavior support plans tailored to individual needs.
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Zack:
#schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast #coachkasabo #schoolcounselor #coach #teenmentalhealth #traumainformed #behaviormanagement #parentingtips #challengingbehavior #kidswithanxiety #communitycoaching #teachers #teachersfollowsteachers
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am humbled to welcome my guest today, Zack Kasabo. Let me tell you a little bit about Zack. Zack has a master's degree in school counseling and a bachelor's degree in psychology.
[00:00:27] Olivia: He has over eight years of experience working with kids of different ages across various settings. Zack works closely with caregivers, teachers, and administrators to establish plans for encouraging student success. His unique experience has allowed for the cultivation of a thorough and practical approach to both self and co-regulation strategies that focus on building from the bottom up, rather than promoting quick fixes. I am thrilled to welcome you as a guest on Schoolutions Zack! Welcome. Welcome. Welcome!
[00:01:01] Zack: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Looking forward to it.
[00:01:02] Olivia: Me too! Um, I kick off every episode by asking guests who an inspiring educator is from their life. Would you share with listeners?
[00:01:11] Zack: Yeah, so I took some time to think about this. I come from a family of educators. Both my parents were teachers. They're now retired. My grandma, who I'm going to talk about, she was a teacher and a school counselor. My brother's a teacher. Some of my other grandparents who are no longer here were teachers, but I would say out of all of them, definitely my grandma inspired me to take a, to take the counseling approach within education.
[00:01:35] Zack: So I just admire what she just, I just remember growing up I feel like she was always extremely supportive, and compassionate and empathetic, and that definitely has played a part with where I am today.
[00:01:46] Olivia: Uh, it's such an important role, especially; we need more school counselors in school districts, uh, with all that kids are experiencing. And I think something that made me gravitate towards you, um, and want you to be on as a guest is that there's this struggle I would say for, uh, parents, caregivers, as well as educators to show compassion when their children, uh, from pre-K through seniors in high school, because that's the audience you're working with, right; um, to show compassion without enabling.
[00:02:23] Olivia: And I think it's a really fine balance. Um, there are so many parenting trends right now that you can get caught up in, um, and you speak to that and you will speak to that. Um, but I'd say the hardest thing for me as a mom, I have an 11 and a 15-year-old is regulating my own emotions, keeping my calm when they're upset or when they're frustrated or when their voices are elevated and raised. Right? My favorite words you use, I'm going to quote right from you and name the issue, “Directions without connection usually leads to rejection.” Boom, right? You, you hit the nail on the head.
[00:03:08] Olivia: So, solutions, you are a solution. School counselors are everything. They're so important. And I, what I'm going to have you speak to for listeners today and followers is that you've developed your exceptional understanding of brain-based regulation. Um, you've developed behavior and emotional management systems, especially in your work with students that are deemed like have behaviors at Tier 3 and Tier 4.
[00:03:36] Olivia: You can speak to that. Um, so I'm excited to jump into our conversation. Um, and I have seen you post, yourself, that you wish you would have had the tools when you were a teen that you offer families today. And so I'd love for you to share about how your teen years inspire you to do what you do.
[00:03:59] Zack: Yeah. So, excuse me. So that, that absolutely, that time in my life is essential. Another essential piece to where I am today because of the mental health issues I struggled with. I was, I was an extremely anxious child, since I can remember. And then that eventually turned into severe depression, which lasted through my early to mid-twenties.
[00:04:20] Zack: So, having that unique perspective and like being in there and experiencing it and feeling everything that came with it and missing out on milestones as I watched my friends participate in those things. I feel, I feel very fortunate to be in a situation now where I can, I can use that personal experience in combination with my training and my professional experience to really connect with kids in a way that resonates with them.
[00:04:48] Zack: And I think, I think you mentioned this one of my, uh, one of my biggest strengths is being authentic, and I think that's, that's where a lot of the connection comes from, because kids can feel presence, they can feel your intent, and if they’re, if there's any skepticism, of course, a little bit's normal, but if they're skeptical of your intentions, then they're way less likely to receive whatever it is you have to say, and then all of a sudden you're just talking to no one.
[00:05:14] Zack: So my teen, to answer your question, those difficult times during my teenage years were absolutely, um, a big part of the trajectory of my career and where, where I am today.
[00:05:26] Olivia: Yeah, and I would say kids in general, boy, they can read people. They, they're masterful with reading situations, reading people, feeling others’ anxiety, um, and they may act out in ways that don't make sense because of it. Um, but I did say that your social presence is phenomenal and your reels, it made me gravitate towards you of just how real you are. And I think it will benefit, uh, followers tremendously. Um, your current role right now, I just, I want to make sure that everyone knows you're a K-8 school counselor. Um, and you're working with The Delaware, the Delaware County Intermediate Unit.
[00:06:10] Olivia: Um, and you're, you're bouncing between three buildings, three schools. Um, so talk to people, you know, what does that role entail? Um, and then I'd love to hear some challenges and successes that have come.
[00:06:25] Zack: Yeah, so I recently accepted that position, and towards the end of last school year, um, I was looking for a new opportunity to grow. I was at my previous building for almost seven years and I loved it there. I absolutely love the kids. I would love to talk to you, because that's, that's where most of my, my content ideas come from I would say is that experience. But this new experience, it's awesome. I get to, I get to work with different staff, different kids.
[00:06:52] Zack: I get to see both the whole spectrum of, of demographics with regard to class. So the one building is, is every kid is there on a scholarship. They don't pay anything. And then the other one is if, if you're from the, if anyone's listening is from the Philly area, it's more of like a Main Line type clientele with higher income earning families.
[00:07:13] Zack: So, it's really neat to see the distinction of behavior with regard to class and other and other differences in demographics. I'm definitely excited to keep working this year because being in this situation, I get to work with each principal to establish how, like, what my presence is going to be like.
[00:07:30] Zack: Now, I, I'm a strong advocate for classroom guidance. I do think that if we, if we, if we are honest about the current needs of society in general, then Tier 1 has to be the priority. Like proactive, preventative measures. That means every child, in my opinion, should have access to a school counselor on a regular basis. Not just, not just students who, well, of course, students who need that extra support, but it really, when I first started at my last building at Stonehurst and Upper Darby School District, it really stood out to me that I was seeing these small groups and these individual kids. And I'd go back, I'd drop them off in the class, and it was just clear that the need was just so much greater than that.
[00:08:15] Zack: So, uh, and we can talk more about, about my role at that previous building, but I was fortunate, I kind of took advantage of some change in leadership, where I kind of asserted myself as like a classroom guidance counselor, where every, every classroom got to see me once a week.
[00:08:30] Olivia: That's awesome.
[00:08:31] Zack: So, yeah, so I'm excited to continue doing that. And then also just finding other ways to be creative with my role.
[00:08:39] Olivia: Yeah, I love, um, I think it's really hard for educators today to know when to shift, um, whether it's shifting within a school district, shifting positions, also seen, um, not as betraying the, the past, uh, children, like just moving on. But I think that, um, you know, when the time is right to switch and move. And there's no shame in that. Um, and I'm excited for your upcoming for your future. And I like that you're able to define your role a bit and have autonomy with that. Um, I know most of your past experience was with the other building with other school districts. So share, you know, what are some of the challenges that you saw students facing, grownups facing over and over as a pattern. And, um, then what are some successes that your work led to as a result?
[00:09:34] Zack: Yeah, sure. So, I'll start with just the students and then I'll shift to the adults. So my last building was a Title One building, uh, 80, I forget, 80 percent of the kids fell below the poverty line. So it was majority, overwhelmingly poverty, extremely impoverished community, lots of crime, lots of violent crime.
[00:09:54] Zack: Lots of other societal dynamics that just absolutely created daily barriers that it's just even hard to fathom if you, you know, I, I saw it secondhand, but just can't even imagine being, being a kindergartner, you know, walking they’re a first grader, welcome to school under the, you know, under those conditions.
[00:10:12] Zack: So, I, again, I really, really relied on my authenticity and my ability and my, my being able to perceive what was most important. And in a situation like that, where there's so many problems, one of the things that we struggle with as educators is having some humility and just focusing on one thing at a time.
[00:10:36] Zack: And it might not be the thing that society wants you to do. It might not be keeping up with the pacing guide. It might not, it might not be, um, making sure, you know, something more academic. Now, of course, the ultimate goal is to set students up for academic success, but what we've, what we found just clear as day.
[00:10:56] Zack: And what I found was that without that connection, without the relationships, without again, focusing on like taking, taking advantage of understanding the Brain States and, and just that primary survival regulation, like everything, everything else is just, is out the window, unless, unless those things were taken care of first.
[00:11:14] Zack: So... for me, my, I just consider myself as a relationship expert. Every day I went in there, regardless of what was going on, regardless of, you know, how horrible the previous day was before, my goal was, I'm trying to, I'm trying to pump these kids up, give them high fives, smile at them. Um, just check in with them. When I see them in the classroom, before I talk about anything, I'm just asking about them. You know, what are you looking forward to this week or this weekend? Do you have anything you want to share? So just, just really, really trying to just build those relationships. So that, like I said before, we could even be in a position to learn, you know, just because the concerns were so overwhelming with some of the behaviors.
[00:11:52] Olivia: Yeah. I love something you just said that every day it was a clean slate because I think something I see in education is that when a pattern is established, um, and there's an expectation for misbehavior, it gets really dangerous.
[00:12:08] Olivia: Um, and I know one of my first years teaching, I was in California and I was in a shop. And I saw this beautiful painting and it has a sunrise and a bird and just like woven into the clouds is the saying, with each new sunrise, life begins anew. And my first gig, my first teaching job, I, that's how I, the door decorating was big then, and I made that on my door and I actually kept that saying on my classroom door, no matter where I was in the world, the rest of my teaching career, when I had my own class because I think kids deserve that.
[00:12:46] Olivia: And then I had my own two children and that's how I try to start every day. Fresh slate every day. You can be who you want to be. You're making choices. Um, and I think that those of us that live in privilege, we often have no concept of what it's like to carry the burdens that these children are living with and experiencing at home.
[00:13:11] Olivia: Zack, I could not agree with you more, that unless their emotional needs are fed. And they have that connection. They're not engaging in the math lesson. They're not engaging with books. Even if we have the most beautiful books. It doesn't matter. Um, so that as a priority is huge. And I would love to hear some successes that you've experienced long-term.
[00:13:36] Zack: Yes. So I would say the thing that I'm most proud of that I mentioned earlier was establishing weekly classroom guidance where I got to see every, so 500 plus kids on a weekly basis was just incredible. I can name most, at least 90 percent of kids by name. So like I knew names and then I was, and then I was able to, you know, from siblings and cousins, I was able to establish, uh, myself within families and like, you know, and at dismissal and arrival, I know the parents.
[00:14:05] Zack: You know, I, I can, I can, it's just a deeper connection. So that by far for me, what was my biggest accomplishment making it, making a, um, a regular SEL presence. I also some other accomplishments that I'm super proud of. I really tried to get involved with the community. So Upper Darby Police Department, I partnered with them and we had an amazing officer.
[00:14:29] Zack: So she came out and she read to first graders every other week. So there was, there was positive interactions with the police. Uh, we got, we would also work, partner with the police to have like physical fitness events for the older kids. It was an opportunity for them to get out of class and just regulate themselves with the, with the running.
[00:14:48] Zack: And, and again, having more positive interactions with the police. Uh, I partnered with some, some other local agencies that would come and talk to kids about like safe touch. So, so I really, I really try to make it a point because also, again, if we're, if we're just going to be honest about the situation, we can't do it by ourselves, especially in a school and the schools, especially like Stonehurst or just that's just completely under, under, um, underserved and, and in my opinion, neglected in lots of ways, like we need the community.
[00:15:20] Zack: We need to partner with them so that they provide opportunities for kids. We also just need them so that we're, we're communicating with each other. So we know what's going on to try to, to, to really try to, um, encourage a sense of value and pride around education, just going to school and making sure that we do our best to acknowledge that there's cultural differences but in this building that we got to stay safe.
[00:15:40] Zack: We got to find ways to be peaceful problem solvers. I can definitely talk more about that about my approach with that. But so I would say it's my, my, my biggest accomplishments in that building where, where the classroom weekly classroom guidance partnering with members in the community.
[00:15:59] Zack: I also try to really help revamp our behavior committee. So, so what I did with that was we went, we went from when I started like all over the place to just focusing on one specific behavior (we call it the behavior of real concern) and then coming up with a plan for just that behavior.
[00:16:17] Zack: Because again, naturally sometimes, yeah, we wanna solve, you know, we wanna solve everything. And then we put a plan in place and you can't tell if the plan's even addressing that behavior or not. So I was, um, I'm proud, I'm definitely, I'm proud of that accomplishment as well.
[00:16:29] Olivia: That's amazing. And I, you're, you're, there's a couple of things that you just pointed out that I need to name for listeners. Um, Uh, I want to point out the power you said you knew every child's name. There are insane amounts of power in that alongside the community. Um, season two, episode two, I had the gift of interviewing Professor Ron Avi Astor. He's an expert, leading researcher in gun violence prevention as well as bullying prevention.
[00:17:01] Olivia: Um, he's at the, uh, he's at UCLA. And something he pointed out, one of the first steps in preventing bullying is that the adults in the building know children's names. That they are part of the community. Um, and he actually has a whole system of where he's able to track where bullying happens in school buildings.
[00:17:27] Olivia: And it was often, uh, in the halls because the hall monitors don't always know the kids and he gave a specific example of a fight broke out and a very petite custodian in the building who knew all of the kids’ families, knew the kids’ names, was able to go and break this fight up and as soon as the kids saw her that were fully engaged in a fight, they stopped and backed up and it was like a reality check.
[00:17:57] Olivia: So there's insane amounts of power and getting to know kids’ names, uh, building relationships with the community that are just invaluable for the ripple effects that it has. Uh, bravo to you for knowing that and for taking the time because it's, it's really important. You know,
[00:18:16] Zack: Thank you. Yeah, thank you. I mean, I could tell almost immediately that, that that I'll be honest with you like that in itself was could be more impactful than anything else I did that day was just like talking to kids by their name, taking a second to just check in and make sure there's a movement of connection. You know, that that was extremely powerful.
[00:18:34] Zack: One more. Two other things I forgot to mention as far as partnering with the community. I was also extremely grateful for the Y.M.C.A. They came out multiple times to, they donated hundreds of jackets to our kids. I'm also extremely grateful for the Upper Darby Fire Department. I part I reached out to them and they provide, I forget, hundreds of articles of, uh, hundreds of hats and gloves to our kids. So trying to make sure that they have jackets, hats, gloves, and then also Giant, I was able to work with them to, to, we got a bunch of turkeys and we raffled them off at our back to school night or one of the parent conference nights as like an incentive because we struggle, we struggle with turnout. So we try to advertise that as you can, you can raffle off a chance to win a turkey, which was pretty cool. It turned, it was, it was, it turned out nice.
[00:19:21] Olivia: Yeah. Well, and I think when we talk about families or caregivers. coming into schools. Many families had really negative experiences with their own schooling. And so I think sometimes it's really intimidating to walk through those doors of a school building and that's not something that registers for everyone, right? Um, so it's important. Um, you have a tremendous social presence. Um, you are not known as Zack necessarily or Zack Kasabo; you're known as Coach Kasabo in addition to your role within the education system.
[00:19:58] Olivia: So I want to linger a moment and speak to some of the systems that you have created based on research and your own experience in school. Right? Um, so one of them, I actually, let's pause and just say, let's talk punishment. Because I think punishment –
[00:20:16] Zack: …controversial.
[00:20:16] Olivia: Yeah, it's controversial. It gets a bad rap. And in your words, punishment is one of the keys to effective behavior management. So please share like talk more about punishment and yeah…
[00:20:31] Zack: This is something that this is going to sound so wrong, but I'm, I'm, I'm extremely like, I'm, I want to be very transparent and pretty assertive about this just based on what I saw at this last building.
[00:20:43] Zack: And I'm going to get there in a second. But one thing I just want to clarify is that when, when, when people hear the word punishment, it's such a loaded word that sometimes we think like, yeah, you're missing out for weeks on end or like you're getting yelled at or, you know, lots of times we go to the most extreme situation in our mind because we're, we care about kids.
[00:21:04] Zack: Like we don't want them to be, to be in a, you know, in an excessive situation. But when I, when I, yeah say punishment. I mean, a system created by people to decrease the future frequency of a problem. Now, a lot of people will use the word consequence, and that's fine. But like, based on my training, when I hear consequence, I think of outcome.
[00:21:24] Zack: So it doesn't necessarily mean a punishment. It could mean a variety of things. But again, it's semantics, whatever people are comfortable with. What I have found from my experience at this at the last building, and there was some change in leadership, so it took us a while to get there.
[00:21:40] Zack: But, when kids, I advocate for a specific sequence. You always give, you always give opportunities to build skills first. You don't punish if the child doesn't know what to do. That, that, that damages relationships and it discourages them from using skills in the first place. So, that's, and when people criticize me about this, they always, they tend to, not always, they tend to overlook the first two phases that I advocate for.
[00:22:05] Zack: So, I always, always, always advocate for skill building, making sure that they have the proper amount of time to actually integrate those skills. Cause you don't just say it one day, then expect them to do it tomorrow. Like you had to give them some time. And then even if they do those skills, you never expect the child to use the skills 100 percent of the time.
[00:22:22] Zack: So, as adults and leaders, it's our job, it's our job to coach them through it by giving them opportunities to self correct. Yeah, to self-correct. Now, if the child is aware of the skills and they know and they've shown and they've proven that they can use those skills, if you as an adult have given them a reasonable amount of opportunities, to self-correct, and they're still not, they're still not complying.
[00:22:46] Zack: That is when, and from, based on my experience, it's more than appropriate to remind them of a potential; I'm just going to use the word consequence because I think sometimes people just get turned off when they hear punishment. And the language that I like to use is, this is your, this is your last friendly reminder.
[00:23:03] Zack: I've given you three opportunities. You, you have a choice. You know, you can, we can do this or, you know, you might miss this or this, this could potentially happen. Um, hopefully it's a predetermined system that they're completely aware of. You know, you always wanna make sure it's predictable. It's not something that catches them off, off guard. Um, I, I always advocate for, you never lead with punishments. You don't ever start an interaction with this is going to happen to you if you don't, you know, if you don't comply.
[00:23:35] Zack: Um, it's, you should never over punish and you should never rel…if you're relying on punishment or even if last time I did an Instagram live on my redirection system and even relying on redirection, you're, you've lost. So a lot of it is what I call pre-direction, which is everything that leads up before the initial direction that's going to encourage it in the first place. But consequences give kids concrete timelines to comply.
[00:23:58] Zack: And and there's some kids who are precocious and they're exceptional and they don't need that and they and they can figure it out. But I think as a society, we're overlooking the bell curve. And most kids, sometimes they need that extra motivation to say, okay, um, it's time to get it together.
[00:24:15] Olivia: Yeah. So I want to…
[00:24:16] Zack: Sorry, that was a rant.
[00:24:18] Olivia: No, no. It's like, again, punishment is a very loaded word. And I think compliance is a loaded word as well. Um, and so I have like a negative vibe with the word compliance, because it means like, sometimes I'm doing something that someone else is telling me to do, whether it's good or bad, right? As a teacher. So I often say like, I speak to the differences between compliance and proficiency, like how can, how can we get to an end of what we both want to happen in some way, um, but with proficiency, so I then have autonomy over it. I feel like compliance has almost a blind following, um, notion. So I've even tweaked my language or changed my language to be more in line with proficiency over compliance. Because you're still getting to that end, but there's choice involved instead of that blind following. It's just interesting.
[00:25:16] Zack: I love, I love that perspective. So one thing I talked about last night, which is huge for us as adults and leaders, when (I'm just going to use the word compliance again, just based on what I was sharing) was that part of redirection or trying to get a student back on track or to get to a certain goal, sometimes are we need to adjust our goals. So we might be looking for compliance that they get back to work. But what I, what I shared last night is sometimes it's what is the, what is the most important goal right now?
[00:25:44] Zack: Right now, the most important goal is to connect with them before they even before I even get to that. Let's get back to work part. So maybe I'm looking for compliance with regard to using their regulation skills, which would be proficiency. Same thing. But tweaking that goal, chunking the goal as an adult to get to that final result. Because like you said, I agree with that perspective that sometimes, especially from a child's perspective, it's just like, I have to go from, I have to go from A to B when really it's like A, B, C, D E is what the, the final thing that I actually want them to get to.
[00:26:17] Olivia: Yes. Yes. So, and you've, you've now alluded a couple of times to the live you did, um, last night around C.A.L.M. So share with us, what is your C.A.L.M. Redirection Technique?
[00:26:26] Zack: So this, this is, I came, this is kind of intuitive. I wouldn't say that some of the strategies are by no means original, but the sequence, the way in which I use the sequence, I, from what I know is original. And what I found first, well, for me as a counselor, when I visit these classrooms, uh, I come and I go.
[00:26:45] Zack: I'm essentially like a specialist teacher in some, in a way, where like I see them for a half hour, a little more than a half hour, and then I leave. I see kids in passing, I respond to extreme behaviors. I have to be a lot more crafty. I know that sounds, I know that sounds, that sounds manipulative, but I have to be a lot more crafty with the way in which I talk to kids because I can't, I don't have the classroom consequence systems to rely on or some of those other things. So the first thing I noticed was that regardless, unless it's a behavior, unless it's a safety concern, one of the best things you can do when you first notice a child's, if they're showing an undesirable behavior, is to acknowledge them in some way. So you give some sort of, you give this, what I call it a small dose of attention, and then, and this will be the C which stands for what I call corrective validation.
[00:27:32] Zack: So you find a way to validate what they're doing to make, to, to establish a connection, but then you share either a time that, that's appropriate for the behavior or what they should be doing instead right now, or what would be more acceptable right now. So an example would be, I see a kid in the hallway.
[00:27:48] Zack: They're running. I love the run. That looks like a lot of fun, but I need you to walk right now. I want you to stay safe. We're in the classroom and kids yelling at me. You're allowed to be angry. You're entitled to feel angry. I need, I need you to talk to me respectfully. So, so instead of just going like right at them and if for all the veteran teachers out there, you know, when there's a time and a place, but long term, long term, sustainable strategies is we got to find ways to prioritize the relationship.
[00:28:17] Zack: So before we even, and I'll show you, I'll go to the next, the next steps here. But before we even get to the next steps, it's how can I find a way to connect? So that's the C. Corrective validation. So for everyone listening out there, you know that that doesn't work all the time; plenty of times where it doesn't work.
[00:28:34] Zack: So that the, the A, the C.A.L.M. stands for Ask for choices. Choices are great because it gives kids a sense of autonomy. Hopefully as the leader, you're giving them reasonable choices. So really, as, as the, as the leader, as the adult, you're, you're, you're still ultimately in control, but you want, you want them to, to feel some, some control over the situation.
[00:28:53] Zack: So, also, what I've noticed is that when kids are dysregulated, they're not using, they're, they're in their brainstem, they're in their survival brain state, so they're not thinking clearly to, to decide which choice is best. So it's a great way to lessen anxiety too, is by here are the choices. Instead of, instead of what can I do, what can I do, I'm just going to dig in and I'm just going to keep doing, you know, yelling, screaming, like you can do this, you can do that.
[00:29:15] Zack: So an example, example, example might be you, you know, you, I can help you get back to work or we can take a second and take a deep breath. So that would just be, now, now it depends on the situation. Now that the, if, if the L stands for Listen. So if they, If they choose one of those choices, you find a way to praise them.
[00:29:34] Zack: That's a great choice. I love, I love that choice you made. If they don't, you can let them know you'll choose for them. You know, look, I'm trying, I'm working with you. You can choose or I'll choose for you if you can't. And then the final thing, the M stands for Move on. And this is, this is the, my biggest takeaway from when I worked with adjudicated teens.
[00:29:54] Zack: So these were kids who it was either jail or displacement. And, and what I noticed was that the, the, the, the veteran staff would almost always make it a point after a problem to say, we're moving on. The problem is done with, we're moving on. And I found that very interesting because I would see, I would see these teens who were worked up, and then it would take them a little bit, but then you could see, you could see them, the physically moving on and becoming less frustrated.
[00:30:25] Zack: And what I found in this, this last building, whether it's, whether it's a 1st grader or 5th grader, is. Sometimes kids, they, they get stuck on, is the adult still thinking about it? Are they still mad at me? Are they still, you know, is, you know, or just thinking about the problem in general. So, moving on, trying to transition them from the problem to the next thing.
[00:30:46] Zack: Like, we dealt with it. It's, you know, we're done with this. We're going to move on to, we're going to move on now. And obviously depending on the person, you change your language to make it fit your style, but...
[00:30:55] Olivia: Yeah. So I want, I want to just pause with a couple of things you named. Um, that idea of connecting first, and then also it's really easy for grownups to sometimes weaponize that behavior and keep circling back to it.
[00:31:16] Olivia: So that idea of moving on, it is really, I would say, comforting for a student or for a child to believe that, you know what, I messed up, and now I get a chance to move on from that and move forward even, right? We're moving forward. And I think it's really important. Like everything you're saying, I just keep asking myself as an adult, how do I model that regulation, that calm.
[00:31:46] Olivia: Because you did say, and it's so true; as soon as anyone, it doesn't matter your age is yelled at, I think it's the amygdala in the brain, um, our fear, flight or fight response. We shut down. You are not able to take information in. Your body, your brain is going through a full anxiety, fear, flight, or fight response. And so, um, I think that we have to be really careful and calm and it starts with us. It starts with us as adults regulating, um, for our kids.
[00:32:22] Olivia: And then that idea of moving on, it goes back to with each new sunrise, life begins anew, and you have to really stick with it. Um, and not weaponize these behaviors. So they become patterns. Um, so I think that's powerful. Um, I also know you have the T.I.P. framework, um, share what that is.
[00:32:40] Zack: So, so I established this for, from my own personal life with my depression and my anxiety. And what I found was that it sidelined me for so long. And it really, I wasn't, I wasn't taking action in the present for all sorts of reasons. I was, I had a lot of limiting beliefs that were, were affecting me. So I want to make, before I describe it, I just want to make, make it known that this framework is more so for problem-solving, is for taking action in the present.
[00:33:13] Zack: It doesn't necessarily, uh, resolve the issue at a deeper level. There's still going to be a time to process it at a deeper level. However, I'm, I'm a huge advocate for providing tools that people can use on a, on a, on a regular basis, whether they have access to therapy or not. So, or, or like counseling or expensive services, especially after working at the building I worked at last.
[00:33:37] Zack: The last building I worked at was, that's the specific population. It just, it blew my mind the amount of need and then how unaccessible, inaccessible, uh, resources, you know, just, just from a strictly financial barrier. So this particular framework, uh, the acronym is T.I.P. It stands for Take responsibility.
[00:33:59] Zack: Identify skills that you lacked at the time of the problem, and then Practice those skills in the present. So, this is a great way to regulate your survival brain state by feeling, and I'll explain each, uh, letter. But, it's a great way to regulate your survival brain state by practicing skills that you're deficient in so you feel prepared for the future.
[00:34:18] Zack: So, let's say that there was some overwhelming situation that happened to you in the past. The 1st step is always to take responsibility by acknowledging that you just simply didn't know. There's always exceptions, but usually it's I just, I was unprepared. I didn't have the skills or the experience to be successful at the time if I don't, if I just leave that like that, I don't give myself the chance to, to, to really, uh practice the skills that prevented me from being successful in the first place.
[00:34:46] Zack: And that's where people get stuck. That's where people get stuck because they just don't feel equipped to overcome potential problems in the future that might be similar. So after you take responsibility, you're just fully honest with yourself.
[00:34:58] Zack: You know, that was awful. That did not feel good. But just to be honest, I wasn't prepared. I didn't have the skills or the experience. The next step is I, so Identify the specific skills that you lack. So maybe I'm just going to come up with something. Maybe I lacked effective communication skills. I didn't know how to be assertive in a respectful way.
[00:35:19] Zack: And maybe, maybe I was shouting at someone and I said some inappropriate things. So then I would, it would be my responsibility to identify those specific skills, but to practice them in the, in the, uh, present so that, like I said, there's potential if they happen in the future, we feel more prepared. So a big, a big, um, factor with regulating our survival brain state is feeling prepared.
[00:35:43] Zack: So the psychological safety, there's the physical safety and the psychological safety, physical safety is physical health, shelter, you know, safe neighborhood, psychological safety. A lot of it comes down to goals that help us build skills so that. We're growing and we feel prepared and when we feel prepared, things are more predictable. We can, we can, we have a better, we feel, we feel more, uh, ready for certain situations.
[00:36:07] Olivia: Yeah, it makes sense. And also I saw something you posted a while back of, you know, do we force kids to apologize or do we apologize even as grownups if we don't feel like we did something wrong at that time or if we're not contrite yet or ever. And I know you have an opinion about that. So I'd love to hear it.
[00:36:29] Zack: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm super opinionated about this again, based on what I've seen with my eyes. So this isn't, this isn't like I'm, I'm in my room and I'm brainstorming like, like I definitely come up with frameworks and stuff like that. But this is, this is what I've seen with my own eyes with, with kids and there, there's a, there's a, there's a narrative or a trend right now that unless, unless a child is completely, it's like truly empathetic and understanding and feels as though they should apologize. They should that they shouldn't.
[00:36:58] Zack: Now, what I have seen with kids is, uh, they're and not just kids. And I know this, this, this sounds insensitive, but there are formalities that make society function and one of the biggest ways that you lose trust from the community is if you transgress and you don't make a known that you transgressed.
[00:37:21] Zack: You don't like you don't make so whether, whether if I if you and I like we're in a classroom and I'm speaking specifically for like more silicon school setting but if, if um, I'd have to think more about outside, but I think I I think I'd feel the same if you and I aren't in a classroom and I, and I start screaming at you in front of everyone and people are watching and they see that, you know, there, there's some people who, who, who are advocating, well, if I don't really feel like I should apologize and I shouldn't. My experience has shown me that those kids develop a reputation so quickly that their peers start to stay away from them.
[00:37:56] Zack: And then sometimes, if it's not addressed appropriately, those behaviors can be normalized, and they can start to become integrated within the community. So, what I'll say about most of these popular trends now is, I'm not just going to cherry-pick the parts that are convenient for me.
[00:38:15] Zack: I think the intent is great. I do. I think there's a valid intent to...really have kids be aware and, um, empathetic and, and take a moment to understand. I just like those younger years are so critical to developmentally to like, like socially, um, with your reputation and, you know, it's, it's hard, like, not that it's impossible to overcome, but a difficult reputation is, is very damaging in lots of different ways.
[00:38:45] Zack: So my, my, my opinion is. We should be encouraging kids to, to delay gratification by apologizing, you know, we can process it with them later. I'm all for that. And we can talk about that. But that's, that's my stance on it.
[00:39:04] Olivia: Yeah. And I know, like, I know grownups that have hurt others. And I think this is twofold. So I think it's really important that across the board, it doesn't matter what your age is. You need to be able to name for others what they have done to hurt you. Um, or that you have felt wronged by, but it's not always on the person that feels wronged.
[00:39:27] Olivia: Because there's a lot of people of color, there's a lot of folx out there that have, it's not their job; it's not their responsibility to name how ignorant people are hurting them. It's really important for others, uh, that whether it's intended or not, to name, I hurt you, it was not my intent, but I did this. And if it's named for them or not, um, I think that there is something to be said, whether you're contrite.
[00:39:57] Olivia: Um, if I've had someone say to me- um, I'm getting better, I would say as an adult to name to four people exactly what they do that have hurt me. And, I’m getting better at naming what I need from them because I don't want it to be the reading of mind’s guesswork anymore. Um, and I've actually had someone say to me, I don't know what I would apologize for.
[00:40:20] Olivia: And I followed that up with, I can name at least five things that I think you could apologize for, and it resonated with that person. Um, they were able to say, oh, okay, well, yeah, actually I did do that. And so I think when you're in a pattern, um, of not having things named for you that are hurtful, that's something too.
[00:40:44] Olivia: So it's that ebb and flow of the person that's been hurt and then the person that did the hurt, but just letting it go, I think is dangerous.
[00:40:54] Zack: So, incorporating communication skills where we, you know, we role-play, we practice, you know, using feeling state, I statements, feeling statements, being assertive, I definitely, I definitely see that approach too.
[00:41:04] Olivia: Yeah, I guess my perspective or point is, is that sometimes the person that isn't apologizing doesn't even see that they hurt someone else if it's not specifically named for them. And so in school settings, it's often a grown-up that's naming it for children that may have not even known that they hurt someone else. They're unaware. I also think there are grownups out there in my experience that are oblivious to what they say or their actions and how they affect other people. And it needs to be named for them too.
[00:41:40] Olivia: So, I'm totally in line with what you're saying of like, we've got to coach kids to own their behavior. And if they don't feel contrite, then they need to understand it's still impacted someone in a negative way. That idea of intent versus impact, I think is critical. Um, I'm interested, I didn't throw this at you before, um, as a potential talking point, but you know, what researchers do you vibe with or what tools do you use a lot in your practice that have your back as a school counselor?
[00:42:14] Zack: Sure. So I would say I mostly try to rely on CBT and Solution-Focused theories, which I, which I learned about my master's program, because they can, they're, they're present oriented, they're, they're goal oriented. Uh, they can be that you can tailor the language to to interact with any age range. So I have a big thing that I work with on all with all students called changing your thought channel. So it's just we practice changing their thoughts.
[00:42:43] Zack: Um, and then solution-focused. So, like, when I work with kids individually or in groups, trying to put their concerns on a scale and seeing how we can move it up a little bit. So that's it’s measurable. Uh, I also, um, so our school partnered - or my last will partnered with the agency that was big on the brain-based theories. I'm not sure who created that, but I rely heavily on that too. So, just for listeners, there's three brain states; survival brain state, emotional brain state, and then I call it your mindful, but it's your executive brain state. And it's from the bottom to the top and long-term regulation, being able to really be in control of ultimately your thoughts because that's your mindful brain state always starts from the bottom up.
[00:43:26] Zack: So making sure you’re living a healthy lifestyle. You have goals that are helping you build skills and then you have, you have successful relationships that are consistent, fair, reciprocating. Recently, uh, trying to think more about Erik Erikson's Psychosocial Development, uh, his theory in the different stages, and how as a society sometimes…so his theory ultimately states that, that there's, there's, uh, each, there's different stages, and there's, there's, if a child successfully completes a stage, they integrate uh, a certain value, or if they don't, they, they integrate a maladjustment. But the basic tenet, your thoughts, your thoughts control your feelings and then your feelings influence your behavior.
[00:43:59] Zack: So sometimes we think, uh, naturally we think I'm just gonna, I'm just going to change my behavior, but really we got to start with what's, what's going through our minds and how can we, how can we reframe it or change it altogether? In a way that encourages us to feel better, which then motivates us to change our behavior.
[00:44:26] Olivia: Yeah, I love your reels around, um, changing your feelings like the seasons or the weather, like it just having control. I think so much of when folks are struggling, it's because they feel out of control. They've lost touch with themselves and, um, connections with others. So, I'm just, I'm so grateful for you, for your work, you know, Zack, what's our call to action? How can we as a community support you and your work, um, and just ensure kids have what they need?
[00:44:57] Zack: That's a great question. I think so my, I think my two biggest missions right now are one is trying to establish a narrative where we're being compassionate without enabling. So just, just, just trying our best to recognize that, and I agree with this, that that past generations failed in lots of ways, but also my opinion, we're overcompensating right now. So I like to say that we went from dismissive to obsessive. So we went from dismissing people and their individuality, their feelings, to now it's like kids are getting obsessed.
[00:45:30] Zack: I recently wrote a blog article on this, where I said, kids were going in, we're processing, but we're not coming back out. We're getting stuck. Yeah, and and that's where like a lot a lot of mental health issues are coming from. So, uh, my call, it would be awesome. If, as a community, we can just start to just find establish more balance with the strategies that we're suggesting, we're suggesting.
[00:45:52] Zack: We're keeping in mind of basic theories like bell curves that we're talking, you know, it's easy to talk about the exceptions like, so I see a lot of big parenting accounts, so they advocate for awesome strategies, but based on my experience, I feel like they're targeting the exception and not necessarily most of that bell curve.
[00:46:14] Zack: So, so that and then also with, with our, with our teens, I guess I think that it relates to the teen part too, which is finding a way to be more honest and an authentic with them in a way, in a way that's not enabling. So that's my big thing because I, I, I, unfortunately, I do, I don't see it getting better soon, but I believe it can absolutely get better when we come together and we, and we have conversations like this and we, and we talk about different narratives.
[00:46:45] Olivia: And I think, uh, what you do and not just your work with schools and school districts, but also your coaching, um, the way you support caregivers and administrators and teachers, it's so important because it's giving adults tools as well, um, to regulate themselves. Self-regulate, and so they're game on when it comes to teens expressing themselves. We want teens that speak up and advocate. And so it's coaching them how to be effective in getting across their message to audiences and their listeners. Um, what is the best way for followers to get in touch with you?
[00:47:29] Zack: Yeah. So you can definitely follow me on, on Instagram, TikTok at Coach Kasabo, C-O-A-C-H K-A-S-A-B-O. Uh, I have Facebook too.
[00:47:39] Zack: You can just, you can search Kasabo Coaching and Consulting. And then I also have a website just https://www.coachkasabo.com/. So I'm hoping that that you can come check me out and give me a chance because I know at first, at first, it's not the, it's not the normal cup of tea and it can be a little, uh, it's just different. But I know that if, if your listeners, the people listening, you give me a chance, you'll find, you'll find value.
[00:48:06] Olivia: Yeah. I totally agree with that. And I think, um, what my favorite thing about this conversation does, it dispels some of the negative connotation with terminology. Um, and I love that you had an opportunity to give the background of, you know, your beliefs and share that with listeners. So thank you for the work you do. It is so important. There are not enough counselors in the world to support our kids these days. And, um, I just support your mission wholeheartedly. Thank you so much, Zack.
[00:48:37] Zack: Yeah. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I appreciate it.
[00:48:40] Olivia: Absolutely. Take care.
[00:48:42] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Zack Kasabo. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.