S3 E13: The Worth of Gaming & Screen Time with The Gamer Educator, Ash Brandin

The Gamer Educator (Ash Brandin) offers caregivers and educators tips for managing screens that benefit everyone involved. Ash speaks to the importance of understanding how various studies frame anti-screen rhetoric. Listeners will leave the conversation inspired to engage with the children in their lives about screen time and tackle the societal challenges that anti-screen rhetoric distracts our attention from. Ash asks us to reconsider seeing screen time as a waste of time and instead consider the life skills developed through leisure activities.

Episode Mentions:

• Commentary on Radio in the 1920s 
• Ohio State University Study: Screen time not harmful for academic skills of preschoolers

Connect & Learn with Ash:

• at their website
• on Instagram

#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast #thegamereducator #gaming #gamer #videogames #game #gamers #gamingcommunity #screentime #parenting #digitalwellbeing #onlinesafety #digitalparenting #parentingtips #technology #internetsafety #digitalsafety #digitaldetox #socialmedia #kids #parents #screentimelimits #parenthood #parentalcontrols #cybersafety #family #mentalhealth #children #cyberbullying #unplug #mindfulness #familytime

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Transcript

Schoolutions – S3 E13: The Worth of Gaming & Screen Time with The Gamer Educator, Ash Brandin

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am excited to welcome my guest today, Ash Brandin, also known as The Gamer Educator. Let me tell you a little bit about Ash.

[00:00:24] Olivia: When Ash began researching video games and music education way back in 2011, they found nearly no research on implementing gaming-based strategies in a classroom, let alone a music classroom. This was a catalyst for Ash to seek out research around issues that I see all over. I experience with families and teachers and classrooms like managing screen time and ensuring our children are safe when they are gaming or online in general.

[00:00:56] Olivia: Um, and also the fact that teachers need to be involved in creating authentic gaming-inspired classrooms and experiences, over gaming companies that have their own agendas. So, Ash, you are the solution, along with your research, your love of playing video games, and your students’ love of playing video games.

[00:01:18] Olivia: I know that drove you to be inspired to find out why; why are we so motivated to play games in general? Um, and you harness that power in your classroom as a teacher. Um, you also have an insane social presence that's awesome. I use your tips all the time as a mama and a teacher. Um, and you have so many practical tips for managing screens that benefit the whole family. So I'm thrilled to have you as a guest on Schoolutions, Ash. Welcome. 

[00:01:47] Ash: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. 

[00:01:50] Olivia: I'm psyched. Um, before we jump into conversation and all of your helpful tips and tricks, I love to hear from each guest who an inspiring educator is from your life. Would you share with listeners?

[00:02:03] Ash: Yeah, um, wow, there are many, um, I, ooh, which one am I going to go with today? Um, I had it, so I had a professor in; I had two professors in college who approached teaching, I think, probably with extremely similar philosophies, but very different execution. And I, I think that they probably would have said they wanted the same things that they wanted students to, um, be self-motivated in their learning and, uh, you know, learn the importance of, of, um, coming to class and engaging, uh, through their own, Like through students in practice.

[00:02:53] Ash: But again, but they went about it very differently. So I had one professor who, um, you know, homework was optional. Attendance was optional. Uh, and it was really up to the student to, like, you could do as much or as little as you wanted. And the hope was that you'd figure out what worked for you.

[00:03:14] Ash: Uh, and I, the other professor, um, the highest grade he would ever give was a B unless you came up with this independent project that you had to propose and create and then execute. Um, and that was the only way he’d even consider giving you an A. And, uh, I had feelings about both of those at the time. 

[00:01:50] Olivia: Yeah! I can imagine…yeah.

[00:03:46] Ash: One way or the other, um, and I still do, but, uh, but, both of them gave me a real appreciation for aspects of, um, of motivation and of learning that, uh, really stuck with me. And, and the, the teachers that, at the time I maybe resented some of their choice of practice. There were things that I really gleaned from their instruction that I still use in my practice and, uh, and I really like being able to look back and see that yeah, both of those people really did want the same thing.

[00:04:12] Ash: And there is more than one way to achieve a goal. I'm someone who can fall into very binary thinking, and it was helpful, I think, to have people who, uh, who approached a similar goal in two very different ways, and arguably both were successful. Uh, I think it's especially in parenting and in education, we want one answer. We want one thing to be right. And it is, it is humbling and important sometimes to remember there's more than one way. Uh, there's not just one way to do these things, even if it's the way we think is best. 

[00:04:49] Olivia: It's, it's so humbling and, um, it speaks to who you are as a person as well. And why I appreciate your approach, um, to gaming, to screen time, I would say so much. Um, and I'd love for listeners to also understand your journey as an educator. Um, what led you to be known as The Gamer Educator? I think it's fascinating. Well, 

[00:05:13] Ash: Well, practically it was because I realized I probably shouldn't go by my name. And then I was like, oh, probably should change that. Uh, that's, that was really, I mean, that was, but, but I've always, I never thought that being like, I truly never thought that having an interest in gaming as part of my life was in any way exceptional. And I don't mean that as a good thing. I mean, like literally as an exception to other people in education.

[00:05:40] Ash: And it wasn't until I was in education that I realized that my view of games is just,  oh yeah, it's just something I do, you know, I never thought of it as unusual in any way until I was in education and suddenly I found myself really surrounded by people who talk kind of derisively about gaming of like, oh yeah, that's what they want to do, as if it's a waste of their time.

[00:06:04] Ash: And you know, part of it was age, but also not, you know, my, my parents are like very old baby boomers. They're, they're toward the cusp of baby boomers. And, um, You know, they, I've told this anecdote before, um, before I was born, they lived in the mountains and they would sometimes drive an hour and a half each way to go into the big, the big city and play Pac-Man, you know, and then they would drive back on like a Friday night, you know, a three-hour round trip so they could play Pac-Man and Galaga.

[00:06:35] Olivia: That's awesome. 

[00:06:35] Ash: And I grew up with that. I grew up with, you know, they would fully admit that that was, you know, something they do and they were like young and a little careless and without kids, but I, we then grew up with video games as part of our life and part of my life and it just was, it was just not a big thing.

[00:06:53] Ash: And it was expected that it fit into the other parts of my life. And so I just, I became an adult who was like, oh yeah, I'm going to practice, and I'm going to hang out with friends, and I'm going to go for a walk, and I'm going to, you know, play, the newest, whatever game. And when I went into education, I just saw it that way too.

[00:07:10] Ash: I'm like, well, we connect with kids when they're interested in basketball. We connect with kids when they're interested in a band we like. Why would we not connect with them about this other interest? And it, and it was kids’ reaction that made me realize, Oh, I guess maybe this is not someone that they receive in a lot for, and from their other teachers.

[00:07:33] Ash: And because I like gaminghat's when I really became interested in it as a tool. Um, and when I was doing my master's degree was at the height of, um, Guitar Hero, craze. And I was an orchestra director, and I was a string, like pedagogy, like that was my focus in my master's. And, uh, I was struck because Guitar Hero actually gives scaffolded instruction, essentially, for how to play these songs that is very similar to some of the ways that we teach beginning string players. And I was struck and thought, oh my gosh, like, orchestra teachers must be so happy because a very dry idea, right; string pedagogy; is now somehow like, interesting in a really, in a really novel way, they must be so excited.

[00:08:30] Ash: And then that's when I turned to the research and found no one was doing anything about like, no one was harnessing that, at least not in a way that they were publishing about. Which doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Um, and so then I thought, okay, I'm going to look more at this. I'm going to dive into this more, see what I can find and just didn't really find very much.

[00:08:49] Ash: And so then I decided, okay, I'm just going to try stuff in my own classroom and I, instead of thinking I'm going to haul an X-Box into my room, which is not practical. Instead, I thought, well, what is it that makes us want to play these things? What is it that makes us want to do these things? And how do we bring those feelings into teaching?

[00:09:10] Ash: Into instruction? Into curriculum? And that's what I really focused on instead. And I liked where that took my teaching and I liked where it took student learning. And that's where this all kind of came from. And then, in the pandemic, I pivoted onto social media because I realized I wasn't going to be able to go to a convention or a conference and share these ideas.

[00:09:33] Ash: So I was like, oh, I got to find some other way of scratching this edge. Um, and yeah, it was just very, like a happy accident. When I pivoted onto social media, that's when I realized, oh, I thought this was unique to education. Like I thought this, this holdup was specific to educators. No, it's not.

[00:09:51] Ash: It's actually most people with kids. And, uh, that's when I really pivoted to more about management and, um, bringing that perspective to people, uh, because especially in the last few years, you know, our, our reliance on technology is, is become more than it was. And it's probably not going to go away. And so we really do have to find a way to forge a relationship with these things that is sustainable. Um, and it isn't, it isn't just all or nothing, uh, and find something that's going to work for everyone.

[00:10:21] Olivia: I lean on your social posts, especially Insta, um, often, and I love how they're designed. Um, little intro photo feels a little like Minecraft-y. I think I am also a child of the eighties and seventies. I appreciate the design. Um, but I think there's something to be said of your content is so thoughtful and so practical. So how do you choose the content? Like what, what you wake up in the morning and think, this is what I'm going to post. Where did these ideas come from, um, that you put out there in the world? 

[00:10:59] Ash: I have a note, like my notes app on my phone. I have like one note that stretches back like two and a half years. Just literally last night, my kid was in the bathtub. We were processing something that had come up in screen time that day. And I had already thought like, all right, this is probably going to go in the content bin. How can I turn this into something?

[00:11:21] Ash: But then they said something and I, and we were just talking through something that had come up. And suddenly I like literally said to them like, hey, I need to write something down on my phone right now, or I'm, or I'm going to forget it. And I'm very grateful because I can't even remember what it was, but I know it's in here.

[00:11:39] Ash: I'll turn to it later. So, um, it, I, I don't know, like, it's been a combination of, um things that have been helpful to me in my own educational practice. Uh, it's been also, you know, hearing from friends of kids of a similar age and hearing what's coming up for them and then sitting with those things and thinking about how I might view that or, or, um, address it. 

[00:12:11] Ash: It's sitting with the discomfort or the difficulty that comes up in my own parenting life. And then thinking about like, how do I find some way of sharing this? And some things don't get shared, which is obviously everybody's prerogative. Um, but sometimes it's thinking, okay, like what's the lesson from this?

[00:12:27] Ash: And then how do I turn this into some pithy soundbite? And the longer that I've had a social media presence, a lot of it is also, um, there's a mutual learning that's going on all the time. Uh, I, what one might call like a critical pedagogy, meaning there's this ongoing feeling of I'm not necessarily the disseminator of all the information.

[00:12:54] Ash: I'm also learning from what people are putting out there. And when people are putting out their struggles or their successes or their criticism, not necessarily criticism, but like, they're, they're pushing on ideas or saying, well, what about this? Or what about when this comes up? Have you thought about this and just finding ways of synthesizing those ideas. Um, there is a real privilege as a creator that you actually get so much input and so much creative material to work with that people are really, really willing to give you. Yes, they're really willing to go out of their way to give you these ideas, and that's really a powerful place to be that I can, you know, sit with these suggestions or difficulties that people are facing and then, um, just kind of ruminate on them.

[00:13:44] Ash: And I think many people go into education because they want to help people and they want to, uh, provide, um, answers and they like to solve problems. And that's something I've always really liked about education. I mentioned that I went into music ed and music ed; you're rehearsing, right? Rehearsing is problem-solving. That's essentially all it is. We want this to sound better than it sounds right now. How do we get there? It really is just solving a problem. Um, and I, that, that's part of it that I really love. Is the kind of like, let's get in there. Let's try stuff. Let's figure it out. 

[00:14:19] Olivia: You know, Ash, this also, it makes me think of just what we want adults modeling for children, the idea of taking risks that are safe in a way of, you know, I'm going to try this route, and if it all fails, I at least tried it. I can try again. And so there's that idea of rehearsal or playing. So you have amazing tips for managing screen time, in general, um, but one of my favorites is your advice for ending screen time, because that can be an unpleasant experience. So what do you say, Ash? How do we do it?

[00:14:55] Ash: Many things require, like many repetitions of, um, boundaries and expectation, and I think this is something that teachers know extremely well and that sometimes when we transfer our brains from our work lives as teachers to our home lives as parents, we forget is still true. Even when, even when our classroom is one child in our living room, it's the same thing. Um, you know, in a classroom teachers know, okay, if this is my, my expectation might take a long time for kids to, to learn, but part of how they learn that expectation is by holding it as an expectation and holding them to it, even if it requires help, reminders, et cetera, because the eventual goal is that they're going to meet this expectation. 

[00:15:44] Ash: And in a classroom setting, this is happening all the time, right? The expectation might be that you're raising your hand, that you're waiting your turn, that you're lining up at the door, that you're, um, you know, there's a, there's going to be a bathroom, how to ask permission to go to the bathroom, uh, you know, what to do when you need a drink, what to do when you're having a problem with a friend, all of these procedures that happen in classrooms, teachers are experts at knowing how do I walk someone through the expectations of this?

[00:16:11] Ash: And the part that I think is often we forget is that kids are also experts at figuring out how to follow these expectations. 

[00:16:21] Olivia: Yes, so true. 

[00:16:22] Ash: Because kids are often in a different classroom environment every year, or I work in middle school, they are in a different classroom environment every, multiple times a day. Right? Every hour, their environment's changing and those expectations are changing. And so they're actually experts at this. They're experts at navigating these different things. And it is a symbiotic relationship, right? Kids’ role is to try to meet those expectations, but also to point out to us when those expectations maybe aren't clear or aren't consistent.

[00:16:53] Ash: And so what we can do is we can be consistent in those expectations and consistent in the boundaries to uphold them. Um, so if screen time's ending, my role as the adult is to make sure that screen time's ending. If I say screen time's ending at 4:30 and it's 4:35, and my child hasn't magically turned off the television and gone on to their next activity, well, guess what?

[00:17:14] Ash: They're kind of doing their job. Their job is not to uphold the boundary for me. My job, is to uphold the boundary. Maybe one day I hope that they will get there. That would be great. That would be great if one day they're doing that, but that, is that a practical goal for an eight-year-old? Probably not.

[00:17:30] Ash: And so then my, my role is to be the one who says, oh, okay, you need my help to turn this off. You need my help to end screen time today. Um, and that can look like different things.  But one of the phrases that's come up that I know that I think resonated with you that can help with big open-ended things is the phrase: How will you know when you're done?

[00:17:54] Ash: Um, and that's one that I actually got just from education. That was one I got from teaching practice. 

[00:18:01] Olivia: I love it. 

[00:18:02] Ash: When I would be working with kids on these huge projects that would take weeks. You know, and I see them for 45 minutes a day. Well, every kid's going to be in a different place. So I couldn't necessarily say to the whole room, you have to be at this point today. Because if we're trying to let kids self-pace, that's not always going to be true. So instead, I began using these phrases for executive functioning skill, that was: How will you know when you're done? Or what is a stopping place you want to get to today? Or by the end of this week, what do you want to have?

[00:18:32] Ash: Okay, then what does that look like every day? So that we're helping them envision a final goal and then ways to meet that goal, right? That's just backwards design. That's great practice. And it's also really good executive functioning. And this brings in a piece I think is so important in talking about gaming and screens, which is that we, often look at screens and see them as a waste, see them as a leisure, sole leisure time. But we forget that there are life skills in those. Leisure activities that we can be enforcing, and I think this, that's just one example. 

[00:19:07] Olivia: Yeah, I think it's brilliant, and I love how the phrases that you use transcend, whether it's gaming or whether it's classroom; it's just in general life skills, and that's why I appreciate your approach. I also am grateful to your tips for keeping kids safe when it's on, whether it's YouTube or tablets or our phones; you know, what are some of your tips for parental guidance or caregiver guidance? 

[00:19:35] Ash: So the first thing I'm going to say, I want a couch because the first thing I'll say is going, I think the best thing we can do is go, in with a game plan and go in with some idea of how, of how we're setting ourselves and our kids up for success.

[00:19:51] Ash: That said. I also, like, I've been there when the rubber hits the road, and that's not always possible. And even if we go in with a plan, things will go wrong. It's just the nature.

[00:20:03] Olivia: It’s inevitable. Yeah. 

[00:20:04] Ash: It's going to happen. So I think we also have to recognize that we always have the ability and choice to change something, to reset, to try again, to make a change.

[00:20:17] Ash: And that, you know, if we, If we do one thing and it doesn't go the way we wanted to, we're not committed to that for life. You know, we can, we can try something different. And again, to go back to teachers, like teachers do that all the time. Like, oh, wow, we tried this, really didn't work. We're going to make a change.

[00:20:34] Ash: And just like I mentioned that kids are very good at at meeting changing expectations. Kids are actually really flexible and really resilient, especially when we kind of give them that expectation. Um, so going in with a game plan is great, uh, if you can and so things that can help with that. 

[00:20:57] Ash: Um, most, consoles, devices, and even apps within the or games within those devices have parental settings, adult content settings, and they can be extremely easy, they can be extremely hard to figure out. Um, YouTube - it has some robust controls, but they are not intuitive at all, for example, so, uh, looking ahead of time to see if there's any controls, um, to set yourself up for success.

[00:21:28] Ash: It's much easier to give kids a curated list of things to do than to then try to restrict after the fact. But, I think it's also good to go in with just an idea of what are some like just basic behavioral expectations that I would like to have about this that are maybe not very specific to the technology and are more just specific about things like what do we do when we encounter unknown things?

[00:21:56] Ash: Um, you know, because, for example, if we try to establish a norm with our kids, that's hey, when you're encountering something new, this is what I'd like you to do. Right? If you're wanting to do something new, I want you to ask me first. Um, or I want you to let me know first, so I can look at it first or whatever. However you decide to do it, but that doesn't just have to mean games that you download it can, but it could also mean, um, you know, books, it could mean, uh, activities.

[00:22:30] Ash: It could mean friends, you know, we, our kids, we probably wouldn't want our kids to go over to someone's house we've never met before. Uh, and, and if we instead frame it as like, oh, yeah, when you're wanting to do something new, first, I want you to do this, then we can suddenly apply it to everything.

[00:22:47] Ash: Or at least many things, and it might feel a little less surprising to our kids. We're also giving them kind of a framework that they can work in. Um, and we can also show how we're going to navigate that as the adult. I was like, oh, when you asked me to do something new, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to get to know it, or I'm going to ask questions, or I'm going to look at it first, or I'm going to sit there and look at it with you.

[00:23:11] Ash: Um, so that we have kind of an idea of how we approach these things. And then like you brought up, we're also modeling. We're also modeling for our kids with that can even look like.  Like, here's what I'm looking for. Here's what I'm keeping in mind. Here's what I'm noticing that makes me nervous. Here's what I'm noticing that I feel okay with.

[00:23:31] Ash: So that our kids are getting a sense of that from us. And so it doesn't just feel like, we're a parental mystery box that just kind of makes, makes arbitrary decisions. That doesn't, that doesn't feel good to kids. It doesn't necessarily feel fair, but also it's not giving them skill, right?

[00:23:50] Ash: If, if the message they're getting is like, oh, I asked my adult, then my adult like arbitrarily makes a decision. Well, that's not going to help when one day I want my kid to decide whether or not this is something they want to watch on their own or play on their own. I do want them to have those skills. But yeah, finding those, those frameworks and then not being afraid to let technology help you. Um, whether that's, you know, content limits, time limits, all of those kinds of settings that are available. Especially with young kids, often having something neutral enforce those limits is actually a lot easier sometimes than having an adult enforce them.

[00:24:26] Ash: And I think sometimes people view those as like cheats, but like we adults use those things all the time as scaffolds for ourselves. Uh, you know, I hide certain apps on my phone that I don't want to see so that it’s, I have to be much more intentional on whether or not I access them. That's not a cheat, like that's literally me just accommodating something so that it's better for me overall. Um, and those are also things that I would want my kid to be able to do. So I think we can model that as well. 

[00:24:55] Olivia: I think having the conversations - it's so critical and I love like the pregaming or the priming before you get into games, but I also I think it's important to let our kids know that different households have different rules when it comes to gaming. And I actually I was really proud of our younger son the other night.

[00:25:16] Olivia: He had a friend over. We were in the other room with his family and parents and he actually came in, and they asked if they could game. And then my younger son circled back and said, I just want to check with you to see if this game would be okay in your eye, because here are things that happen in this game.

[00:25:36] Olivia: And I was like, I was sitting there like. This is crazy and awesome all at once. And he knew. And so I think these open-flow conversations are so important. And when you have multiple children in a household or different ages, they see things and you've got to troubleshoot in different ways. And so your approaches are just so universal, um, and I love the phrases, two phrases you've used as well, um, because it, it takes gaming, but then applies it to life. And so the whole, like, I don't know where to find it. I need help. I need help. The phrases, um, where have you already looked and what have you already tried? Brilliant. I love it. I love it. Ash. I love it so much. 

[00:26:21] Ash: Um, I have to say, should I throw this out there? So that phrase, where have you already looked? I always get a lot of, I get a lot of great feedback on that phrase for many people.  And I get a lot of feedback from it that are, that's people who are like, oh, I use this on my spouse. Which is true, it does work on all age of human, um, but like, I'll also get feedback that's like, oh, like you're handling this so diplomatically because I would just like rage and be like, it's not my job to find them. And the origin story of where have you already looked is that I found myself like gritting my teeth and saying, my uterus is not a homing beacon. 

[00:27:02] Olivia: It's true! 

[00:27:03] Ash: And that, and then I was like, okay, that's not practical. That's not gonna help anyone. And everyone's, and now everyone's just mad at each other. How do we, how do we find a more, uh, helpful version of that phrase? So, you know, when you're talking about how I come up with these things, I don't know, sometimes it's just like my, my own, I don't know, therapizing myself. So something that, that people, not just kids, but people, actually really like about games, but the don't necessarily realize that, is that games are highly controlled environments, and they are actually extremely rule-based environments.

[00:27:37] Olivia: Yes they are.

[00:27:37] Ash: So, you might think. Oh, well, you know, but not the games I can't likes my kid likes Minecraft, they can run around do whatever they want. Every game has rules. Every game has rules. Like quite literally other like game designers literally design the boundaries of game environments they’re, they're built on rules. And it can be helpful, I think, to look at what rules exist in a gaming environment that your kids are actually following all the time. Uh, because we are; if we ask kids what they like, they wouldn't say they like their rules. But if you look at.how kids engage with games. Often what they like is that they are feeling a sense of control.

[00:28:19] Ash: They're feeling a sense of power and autonomy; psychologically, we call it autonomy. But what they are, the only way they're able to feel autonomy is by knowing where the boundaries are. and what the rules are. I actually can't feel in control unless I know what I'm in control of, which means I have to know what I'm not in control of, right?

[00:28:39] Ash: I have to know what's up to me. So I have to know where the rules exist so I know where I can actually exert my control. And so in a game that's like really leveled you know, that might be like a racing game. Well, maybe all that's within my control is like how fast or slow I go. You know, I can't, I can't go wherever I want.

[00:29:00] Ash: The game's going to put me back on the road. Uh, you know, there's only so much within my control. Um, a game like Minecraft is super, super open. I can go wherever I want; I can build whatever I want; I can do whatever I want. Uh, and then I might be feeling a whole lot of control because it's really up to me.

[00:29:18] Ash: Uh, whereas in like a racing game, I might feel in control because I know that if I just stay on this path, I'm going to make it to the end. And I don't really have to make decisions. I just go. So different kinds of structure can make us feel control in different ways. And different kind of kids are going to respond (different kinds of brains) are going to respond differently to that.

[00:29:39] Ash: But those rules are there and those rules are very neutrally enforced. They are not like the game is not going to come in and be like, how many times have I told you that you can't go in there, you know, and the game is not going to come in and say, hey, if you try to go through that door one more time, you can't play this anymore.

[00:30:00] Ash: No, like, no, because all the game has to do is just, it doesn't say anything. It just doesn't let you, right? It doesn't let you in. You try to jump off the side of the world; it rescues you. Uh, you know, old-school Mario Kart, you try to leave the path and, and the little guy in the turtle shell comes and grabs you and puts you back on the road.

[00:30:19] Ash: You know, they're not mad at you. It's just like, hey, nope, we won't let you do that. And you can do, if you want to do that a thousand times, you can, the rule's still going to be there. Um, and what I really like about that is that there's also an expectation that you're going to figure it out. That the game, the game is not going to come up to you and be like, hey, I can tell you really don't know what to do. So like now, now do this next thing. Now do this. Now do this. Because you know what would happen if the game did that? It would not feel very good anymore. 

[00:30:51] Olivia: No, it wouldn't be fun. It would, the challenge wouldn't be there. 

[00:30:53] Ash: No, it would not. No. Because even when, even when we are like raging or our kids, we can tell they're like, oh, you know, I can't do it. I can't beat the boss. I can't get this thing to work. I don't know what to do. What do they still do? They still come back and try again. 

[00:31:10] Olivia: They try. Yeah. 

[00:31:11] Ash: And then when they do succeed. They are on top of the world. And it's not because the game tricked them, the game is not giving them some sort of gambling award, it's not sparkling them with badges and stickers and you did it, most of the time the game's like, cool, nice job, here's the next thing. You did it, like I'm playing a lot of Zelda lately, and in Zelda you're trying to do all these little shrines that are all these little mini puzzles all sprinkled throughout the world. And last night I was in the middle of one, and I thought, I don't really think I want to, I think I know what they want me to do. And I just don't feel like it right now. I think I want to leave. And then I thought, well, but Ash, if you leave, you're just going to have to do this when you come back. You really want to do this when you come back. And I was like, no, I don't, I don't. So then, all right, I think I'm going to give it like a few more minutes and I'm going to try this.

[00:32:04] Ash: And I did it, and I was successful. And then the game spit me back out into the, into the world and was like, okay, cool, get back on your horse. You know, the game is just like great, you you got to decide whether or not you did it. It's up to me to decide as the player how happy am I about this? And that puts a lot of that executive functioning skill on the player of like you have to decide: What are you going to do?

[00:32:29] Ash: What are you going to try? What are you going to interpret? How can we review our work? How can we decide what makes sense to try again? And all of that's happening within this environment that is actually pretty structured, but is giving us this feeling of control and then allowing us to fail in terms that feel acceptable to us and then allowing us to feel this rush of competence of success when we are meeting our goals and we're the ones deciding to meet our goals.

[00:32:59] Ash: And all of that just catapults itself into a lot of intrinsic motivation that then makes people go well, I want to do more of that because I felt in control and successful. Who wouldn't want to feel in control and successful? But that's not that's not insidious.

[00:33:16] Ash: It's actually just really good psychological design. And when those things happen in other activities, if our kids went to swimming practice and got better and then really liked it and wanted to keep going, we would not; we would be thrilled. We wouldn't be like, oh, that swim teacher just makes them want to play more, want to spend more, right? Because that would sound absurd. 

[00:33:38] Olivia: It's so true! I want to, I want to hold on to that idea of framing. And before we do, though, I just have to share, I also think that games and learning games alongside your children or your students is so empowering. And I go back to trying to learn Minecraft with my youngest son and talk about, there was just such automaticity that he had with the blocks and going and all these moves that I was sitting there and he was so kind and patient with me. Um, but there are a million rules with Minecraft and there's also boundaries. Because when you are in the same world with a friend, if you're in a different home or different, you can destroy each other's buildings too.

[00:34:23] Olivia: So it's that, that I guess, peace that you have to have with what you, what you create can be torn down by others. And what, what are my boundaries and worlds, um, that are not just my own? And so I think of that a lot as a mom and just trying to learn from my kids, because the kids know so much about this technology, and I think it empowers them to try to teach you and you will learn all about these games from your child's perspective.

[00:34:54] Olivia: And then let's pivot now and talk framing. Because there is this notion of anti-screen rhetoric. Um, there are families that see gaming as dangerous, um, especially when we're talking about more violent games down the road. Um, but you, your perspective I find fascinating because it's about the framing from actual research studies that bothers you.

[00:35:20] Olivia: And I want to start off with your words or a quote from you that inspired me to ask this question. So hold on to your hat, Ash. 

[00:35:28] Ash: Okay. I'm very excited to hear what I said. 

[00:35:31] Olivia: Cause it's good. Um,”If anti screen rhetoric is couched in concern for children, but isn't actually focusing on the systemic inequalities that disproportionately affect communities of color and other marginalized communities, that isn't concern for children, that's fear mongering.” 

[00:35:49] Olivia: Boom! I wrote it. I typed it up and I just, I linger with that. And so let's talk about that framing because I think it speaks volumes. 

[00:36:01] Ash: Yeah, um, I was feeling it that day. 

[00:36:03] Olivia: It’s spicy. I like it.

[00:36:04] Ash: Yeah, so, you know, particularly in, in online rhetoric around screens and games, you will see a lot of this, like, oh, it's bad. It's, it's poisoning their brains. It's the downfall of society. I have saved in my phone this, um, editorial from 1920 about the radio. Uh, and I come back to it all the time, um, because you can replace the word radio with any modern media, and it is completely true. It's this editorial from like the, from 1920.

[00:36:45] Ash: And it's somebody saying, well, if, if people listen to the radio, they're never going to think for themselves. They're never going to sit and do worthwhile activities, like talk to each other or read a book. Now, everybody's being told what to think. They'll never think for themselves again. And, you know, a hundred years later, we kind of click our tongues and think, oh, how silly, but.

[00:37:05] Ash: But, we say a lot of the same things now about other media and does that mean all media is the same? Of course not. I'm not trying to say all media is the same, but it's the, I do think it's some of the same societal impulse. And a lot of people who occupy spaces who try to take a very binary approach to these kinds of conversations are also often selling things.

[00:37:30] Ash: This, this is just, this is true, this is reality. Uh, and, and, you know, people deserve to, to make an income. But if we really are saying that this is really that serious and if it really is that bad, then the ethics of then putting the solution to that behind a paywall don't feel great to me 

[00:37:53] Ash: And, uh, really do make me wonder, like, where's the seriousness coming from? You know, where's the motivation of that? And I do think we sometimes have to be critical of where, of what we're hearing and, um, what the motivation might be of someone saying that. And we do hear this a lot around like, oh, it's going to be bad for kids, bad for kids.

[00:38:17] Ash: They shouldn't be on screen so much. They should be doing other things. You know what? I actually don't disagree that we sometimes have an over reliance on technology. Particularly in education in the last few years, we have had an over-reliance on technology. 

[00:38:30] Olivia: Absolutely, yeah.

[00:38:30] Ash: And if we think that's true, blaming the screen does not fix that problem. Blaming the screen does not cause, it does not help a teacher shortage. Blaming a screen does not make teachers better paid. It doesn't hire more paras. It doesn't decrease student-teacher ratios. All it does is, is distract from the actual issue and same thing with home environments. Okay. You think kids are on screens too much?

[00:38:59] Ash: Okay. What are we doing to support families so that they have other things available to them? What are we doing to make sure kids have afterschool programming that's accessible? What are we doing to make sure kids have safe access to the outdoors? What are we doing to make sure that kids are living in environments where they can be outside and are not at risk from, you know, temperature, uh, crises or, um, or, uh, air quality issues and all, all of these things that can impact people and mostly as impact communities of color or marginalized communities who are already at risk for these other factors, often due to systemic oppression.

[00:39:40] Ash: Um, those are the things that we actually need to focus on, but they're a lot harder to focus on, and they're, they're huge issues, and they're not as simple as just saying, oh, yeah, the screen's the problem. And this, this study. that I was reading, um, when I said that quote was a study that just came out from the Ohio State University that was looking at, um, I need to speak broadly because I can't remember the specifics very well, but it was looking at the effects of screen time, specifically excessive screen time on preschoolers’ development later as they grew.

[00:40:19] Ash: And it found that there was not any relationship at all, and a lot of anti-screen studies find what we call a correlative relationship, a correlation. Meaning X happens, and Y happens. And what that, what that means is these two things are happening, together. What it does not mean is X is causing Y and often people like to look at correlation studies and like to assume that X is causing Y, but it's not causal.

[00:40:47] Ash: It's a correlation. It's very hard to prove causation. So most anti-screen studies or most studies that show these negative outcomes are usually correlation studies, and it's very hard to then know if this is actually causal or not. And they often also are not necessarily longitudinal, like they're not following up many years down the road, or there's other factors.

[00:41:07] Ash: And what I loved about this study from the Ohio State University was, it was, it tracked them for several years, and it also was tracking actual use and not just parent report. Sometimes these are done by saying, how much screens do you think your kids are on? And like, are they, are they watching kid appropriate stuff or not?

[00:41:27] Ash: And every person's going to interpret those things differently. So it's very hard to then make the data valid. The study found no correlation between amount they were on screens and their development, their academic development later in life. And these were kids who tend to be on screens for what's typically called excessive amounts, like an excess of two hours a day.

[00:41:53] Ash: And they were often on screens at nighttime, like after 6 p.m., which is generally not considered a best practice, not ideal. Um, and what the study specifically called in was that these were often families who were facing systemic inequality or oppression, often families in poverty, and that these were families who needed systemic support.

[00:42:16] Ash: These were families who needed more supports given to them and given to their kids and that that's where we need to focus our efforts. And that focusing on screen use is distracting from the problem, which is something that I’ve felt for a long time. And I was really grateful to see this mentioned. In study language as well, because that really is if we really do want to see improvement in these areas, you know, blaming the band-aid that someone is sticking on a gushing wound is not helping.

[00:42:47] Ash: It's not helping the underlying problem. 

[00:42:49] Olivia: Well said, yeah. 

[00:42:50] Ash: And most parents and most educators who use screens, at least for educators, many times they're not given a choice because they're often wrapped in with other data driven things. Like this is the software we're using. We have to track the data. We have to have the same data. So we have to use this. But many parents are using screens and they feel terrible about it. Most parents are not handing their kids screens and going, aha, I'm gonna pat myself on the back. I feel great. Most of the time they feel terrible because they've gotten all this messaging that it's the worst thing they can do.

[00:43:23] Ash: And we're not going to help them by continuing to tell them why the screen is bad. If we really think it's bad, then we need to make sure that that family has the support they need to have other things available to them. 

[00:43:36] Olivia: It's such a good point and I appreciate your perspective. I want to make sure to include that study in the show notes as well. I sure hope you'll share that piece from the 1920s with the radio because I'd love to see it.

[00:43:48] Ash: I need to find it again. Yeah. It’s good.

[00:44:49] Olivia: Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you to, because that's pretty amazing. Um, and so I connected with you, uh, because of your amazing website and because of just your social presence; how do you prefer for folks to follow up with you and continue learning from your brilliance?

[00:44:32] Ash: So you can find me on the internet @thegamereducator on Instagram. I do have a website, thegamereducator.com. There's some stuff on there like, you know, this is not my job. So I only have so much time I devote to this. So mostly you can just, you can find me on Instagram. That's where I live. And yeah, talking all things screens, games, reframing, management, behavior all of that. 

[00:44:34] Olivia: Yeah, and I would say I usually end with a call to action and you've already spoken to the need for the systemic change. What would you say is the last piece for us to move forward with this? 

[00:44:49] Ash: It's very hard to do any of those things, to relinquish ourselves of the morality around screens, to focus on systemic needs instead of the band-aids. It's very hard to do any of that if we do not first fundamentally accept that leisure is worthy of doing. A lot of the hesitance I think we have around gaming and screens is because we look at it, we think it seems like a waste and it seems like a waste because we don't see anything productive coming out of it.

[00:45:20] Ash: And that doesn't mean there isn't like you alluded to. There's a ton of stuff. If we sat down and play with our kids, we'd probably realize that this is a lot harder than we realize. 

[00:45:28] Olivia: It’s so much harder. 

[00:45:29] Ash: Um, but there doesn't need to be. It's okay to do things purely for leisure. It's okay to just do things we like because we like them just because they're fun. Just because they're enjoyable. That deserves to be a part of our lives, regardless of how old we are. And our kids have that instinct. And then we kind of capitalize it out of ourselves. And, and, you know, we can, we can recognize that in kids. That doesn't mean it's the only thing they're going to do with their time.

[00:46:01] Ash: We can recognize that it's okay to have leisure. And if we can recognize it's okay to have leisure and it's okay to do things for fun, then it's a lot easier to take the feeling of morality out of things like screens and gaming, and once we take the morality out of it, it becomes easier to think of it as a neutral activity, and to think of it as having boundaries like any other neutral activity, and it has less of that scary feeling of, of having, um, a morality to it, which I think is a big part of that process. Just recognizing that. 

[00:46:32] Olivia: Um, so I hear the bell. You're, you're in the middle of your school day. And I'm going to say…

[00:46:38] Ash: Yeah, this is my plan period. 

[00:46:40] Olivia: Yeah, ding, ding, ding. I'm not cutting into your plan period. I am so grateful for your time, Ash. You're amazing. Keep creating and I will keep following you and learning from you, learning with you, um, offering ideas and feedback, but I just thank you for your time. I really appreciate you and the footprint you are putting out there for us on the world. 

[00:47:00] Ash: Oh, thank you so much. No, this is a great way to spend my planning period. I loved it. 

[00:47:05] Olivia: Awesome. Take care, Ash. Thank you. 

[00:47:08] Ash: All right. Have a good day. 

[00:47:09] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Ash Brandin. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.