Caitlin Greer Meister is a specialist in strengths-based learning, giftedness, and neurodiversity-affirming practices. She is a mom of two and the Founding Director of The Greer Meister Group educational consultancy and Joyfully Learning, a New York City-based private tutoring practice. In this episode, Caitlin offers insights about the benefits of tutoring and collaborative home-school relationships. Caitlin illuminates her simple yet essential premise: Kids learn best when they’re having fun.
#caitlingreermeistergroup #joyfullylearning #strengthsbasedparenting #school #neurodiversity #neurodivergent #parenting #parentingtips #tutoring
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Caitlin Greer Meister is a specialist in strengths-based learning, giftedness, and neurodiversity-affirming practices. She is a mom of two and the Founding Director of The Greer Meister Group educational consultancy and Joyfully Learning, a New York City-based private tutoring practice. In this episode, Caitlin offers insights about the benefits of tutoring and collaborative home-school relationships. Caitlin illuminates her simple yet essential premise: Kids learn best when they’re having fun.
#caitlingreermeistergroup #joyfullylearning #strengthsbasedparenting #school #neurodiversity #neurodivergent #parenting #parentingtips #tutoring
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so excited to welcome my guest, Caitlin Greer Meister. Let me tell you a little bit about Caitlin. Caitlin Greer Meister is a specialist in strengths-based learning, giftedness, and neurodiversity-affirming practices. She is a mom of two and the founding director of The Greer Meister Group educational consultancy, as well as Joyfully Learning, a New York City-based private tutoring practice. I'm thrilled to welcome you as a guest on Schoolutions, Caitlin.
[00:00:47] Caitlin: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:00:49] Olivia: Well, I'm excited to have you for many, many reasons. One, primarily, addresses the issue that I have been seeing for many years. And that is that the school systems in general are stretched so thinly that students with extra needs, whether it's striving to thriving, really are struggling to get the one-on-one attention that they need.
[00:01:15] Olivia: And you are the solution, broadly, but you are the founding director of Joyfully Learning and the Greer Meister group. So, those two things in one, I'm thrilled to have you and your brilliance shared with my listeners. Um, and my favorite piece that you have on your website is that you built your practice on a simple yet essential premise: Kids learn best when they're having fun. Yes, indeed. I believe that with everything in me.
[00:01:51] Caitlin: Yeah, and it's so interesting too, because when you say something like that, kids learn best when they're having fun. It seems so simple. We all nod our heads, and we go like, yeah, totally. And yet, it's not what's happening in so many of our learning spaces. So how do we wind up with that disconnect? That if you talk to any individual parent or educator and say that, they go, yeah, of course. And yet, when we get into the larger scale learning space, it isn't what's happening.
[00:02:14] Olivia: It's not. And, you know, I also think it's really important to name what inspires us as educators, because I know you are also an educator, um, with your own children and in general, as an educational consultant. Who is an educator that has inspired you over the years?
[00:02:34] Caitlin: So this was hard, like, and there's so many people I want to call out; I've been very lucky to have some amazing educators, but the person I'm going to talk about as a professor I had in college, I went to Wesleyan University, an amazing professor named Karl Scheibe, and he planted the seeds for me, what I realized grew in my own practice as an educator of providing that kind of authentic belonging for students and providing a sense that not only was a I valued as a person, but that what I brought to that learning environment was valued.
[00:03:05] Caitlin: And so he really pushed us to bring our own personal experiences to every conversation. It was a course that overlapped between psychology and theater, actually. And he really pushed us to bring our own personal experiences to every class, which was difficult and not something that we'd really always been asked to do before, and I realize in retrospect now having my, you know, decades-long career that what that was doing was really saying, what you bring to this community is valued. We want that lived experience, right? It was hugely impactful.
[00:03:36] Olivia: That is and I can see the same ripple effects. That's exactly what we want in our classrooms with children. And, um, you know, I'm interested to know what propelled you or what was the inspiration for you to create both Joyfully Learning when it comes to tutoring, but also the Caitlin Greer Meister Group in general?
[00:03:56] Caitlin: Yeah, so the Greer Meister Group is sort of the larger umbrella, if you will, for all of the different things that we do, including professional development for schools, speaking engagements for parents groups, um, educational consulting. Joyfully Learning is the tutoring side of what we do, so that's where we're doing our private tutoring.
[00:04:12] Caitlin: Um, the answer to your question is, you know, I've been working with kids and families for more than 20 years. I mean, since I was a kid myself, um, and then nine and a half years ago, I became a mom for the first time. And the thing is, I grew up thinking I knew how to do education, right? Because I knew how to get like stickers on my reading logs and my pencil lines, never strayed outside the bubbles on my standardized test sheets.
[00:04:34] Caitlin: Um, and then I had this amazing, amazing child, and suddenly so-called experts were looking at me and saying, we don't know how to help your child. And like, what do you do as a mom when you hear that, right? And as a first-time mom, when you're just trying to feel like you're sleep deprived and you're trying to figure it out and you don't know what's happening, right?
[00:04:53] Caitlin: Um, so I had to build it for him, right? I mean, that's the short answer. I had to figure out how he learns best, and in doing that, I realized that that was a gift I could give to other parents because I could help them figure out how their kids learn best. And so, coming on close to a decade ago, everything I thought I knew about education changed, um, because of my son who is an amazing, beautiful, gorgeous human being and um, I'm, I'm pausing and laughing because I had a background in gifted education and my son is profoundly gifted and it's almost like the universe like went, oh, you think you're an expert in this? We're going to give you this child to parent and just like took me down a few notches, you know…
[00:05:33] Olivia: Game on, game on!
[00:05:36] Caitlin: But the reality was that the more I trusted my instincts as a mom, the more he thrived. Right? And so that started to drive everything I was doing. Every time I get on a phone call with a mom, and she says, you know, I just have this feeling, I key in on whatever she's about to say next because 99% of the time, it's going to give me what I need to help that child. Right?
[00:05:59] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And I think so much of what makes me who I am as an educator, as a coach, as a mom, is I really work hard to align what I believe to be true about education with the practices that then you'd see in the classroom and make sure that research, I think it should have been on top - research always has my back. And so I often am fascinated to ask people what would you say are your foundational beliefs, especially when it comes to tutoring? And then, um, I know that you also lean heavily in your words on a strengths-based neurodiversity affirming approach, um, to tutoring. So that's part of your beliefs, but say more.
[00:06:43] Caitlin: Yeah. So kids learn best when they're having fun, which we already talked about is absolutely, you know, number one on my list. And then, um, as you mentioned, the strengths-based approach and then layered on top of that for many families a neurodiversity-affirming approach. So, you know, what does that mean? That all sounds great.
[00:06:57] Caitlin: Like, yeah, we all believe in strengths and we all believe in affirming our students, right? But what are we really talking about? So, um, being strengths-based means we begin a relationship with a child, with a student identifying strengths and then helping them learn how to use those strengths to grow in areas where they need to or want to grow.
[00:07:15] Caitlin: Right? And the opposite of that, which sometimes helps people frame it in their brains is a deficits-based approach. So, in a deficit space approach, we might say, here are all the ways you're failing to meet expectations, and now I have to help you catch up. Right? Whereas in a strength-based approach, we would say, here's this thing you're really strong at.
[00:07:31] Caitlin: And I'm going to teach you how you can use that strength to grow over here. Right? Now, let's forget about our students for a second. Just you and me talking. Which of those is more likely to get you to want to engage with me? Right? Yeah.
[00:07:41] Olivia: Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
[00:07:43] Caitlin: So that's where the strengths-based comes in. And if you want to talk about the neurodiversity-affirming, ask away. I'm happy to talk more about that, too.
[00:07:48] Olivia: Well, you know what this reminds me of, too, as an educator, uh, years ago in my training, we studied Vygotsky's work, Lev Vygotsky's work. And we talked about zones, especially the zone of proximal development. What was left out of my training, that I learned years and years later of studying research is that zone of actual development leading to proximal development, and then also the zone of frustrational, which I've deemed future.
[00:08:14] Olivia: And so thinking of that actual development, those are the strengths. That's what that child has in place. And I agree with you. I think it is mirrored with adults, right? Zone of actual -strengths, and then proximal. What's that stretch based on the strengths, based on the actual? If we're only naming what's not there and then expecting somehow to go to frustrational or to fill that gap, it's going to be that deficits-based work, and it's not really motivational or inspiring either.
[00:08:47] Caitlin: You mentioned research, right? And everything I do is very evidence-based also. I'm really research-driven and I'm sort of surprised by how much that's happening in schools is not research-driven a lot of the time, right?
[00:08:56] Caitlin: If you look at the research on strengths-based approaches, they show greater engagement with learning, which again, we just gave the illustration in layperson's terms, right? Like that makes sense to us. And it also shows you know, better mental health outcomes. And so if we're talking especially about our teenagers and we're seeing some of the mental health crises that we're having right now, um, I think it's really important to connect these dots, right?
[00:09:18] Caitlin: That it, it's, if our goal is to nurture learning, which, like, nobody gets into education for the glamour or the money, right? So our goal is to nurture learning, right? Then his strengths-based approach, not only nurtures learning, which is our goal, right, and also has the added benefit of. better mental health outcomes for our kids.
[00:09:35] Olivia: Absolutely. Spot on. Spot on. Um, I'm thinking when it comes to the neurodiversity-affirming approach, um, that also is strengths-based. What is the difference between the two, though?
[00:09:47] Caitlin: Um, it's an additional layer, basically. So strength-based approach would apply to all of your learners and then a neurodiversity-affirming approach is specifically for your neurodivergent learners, although we find that a lot of the neurodiversity-affirming practices benefit everybody. And by everybody, I don't just mean neurodivergent and neurotypical students, but I also mean the teachers. I mean, school leadership.
[00:10:04] Caitlin: I mean, parents in terms of home-school connection, like everybody wins. It's, it's, those practices are, are wonderful for everybody involved. Um, but let's back up. So neurodiversity is, it describes the range in the way that human beings process information, right? No two people think alike. It's not a diagnosis.
[00:10:21] Caitlin: It's a scientific fact of our species, right? And it's actually completely essential for our species to thrive. And one way that I like to look at this is to say, well, if we want something different one day, like a solution to climate change or a cure for cancer, why would we think that forcing everybody to think in one way would ever get us something different out the other end?
[00:10:38] Caitlin: Right? That's sort of the simplest way that I can illustrate why neurodiversity is amazing for our species. Okay? Now, there are certain forms of neurodiversity that do come with diagnoses, and these are the ones that as educators, like we're often used to seeing on our IEPs or 504s, right? And this is things like ADHD or our autistic students or dyslexia, right?
[00:10:58] Caitlin: Many, and, and that's by no means an exhaustive list. There are many, many forms of neurodiversity. Um, some folks choose to call those forms of neurodiversity. Other folks choose to call them neurodivergence. And I don't want to get too into the weeds around the language, but the nuance there is, do we want to define ourselves as diverging from some typical that is culturally responsive, right?
[00:11:23] Caitlin: Versus we can talk more about that. ..that's probably a whole episode if we wanted to dig into that. So, being neurodiversity-affirming, to go back to the other question, is at its essence saying for my neurodivergent learners, I see your interests, I see your skills, I see your capacity. Even if they're not on my curriculum, right?
[00:11:44] Caitlin: Even if that's not something we cover in a typical second-grade year or sixth-grade year or whatever year we're in, right? It means that I say that I, back to what I was saying about the educator inspired me, that I value you, and I value what you bring to this learning community. Again, even if it's not on my typical curriculum for the year, right? Right. Um, and there's a lot more that goes into that, right? I'm giving you sort of a bullet-point version of it, but it's about creating a learning space that provides authentic belonging for neurodivergent learners. Right? And frankly, we should be creating authentic belonging for all of our learners. But you asked me specifically about neurodiversity-affirming. So that's the…
[00:12:22] Olivia: Yeah. It's being seen. It's being heard. Um, and feeling wanted. And I, I love that. I'm thinking too…
[00:12:28] Caitlin: and well that what you contribute is valuable, right? That even if, if you're right way into this discussion this activity, whatever we're doing doesn't look the way I expected it to as your teacher or doesn't look the way anybody else's looks, right? It's still valuable here.
[00:12:46] Olivia: Yes. Yes. It's huge. And I'm fascinated to know with the tutoring practice, what gaps in public education or what, what, um, your most in-demand services that you are finding.
[00:13:04] Caitlin: So I would say that about roughly half of our practice is with us for additional supports or remediation, and roughly half of our practice is with us for enrichment. And that second part is often what surprises people, but the reason for it is that there are many things that kids are interested in exploring that aren't covered in a typical curriculum for whatever that year is, right? So if I have a second grader who's super interested in the periodic table of elements, like that's not going to show up on a typical second-grade curriculum, but that's something we can provide outside via tutoring.
[00:13:34] Caitlin: And we take a self-directed approach to our enrichment, which means that the child works in partnership with the tutor to come up with a scope and sequence to pursue what's of interest to them. So we have done - here's an example. So we had a student who had some goals about stretching and learning more in math and was really interested in um, skateboards. So we designed a whole scope and sequence around the history and engineering of skateboards. And we embedded the math learning into that scope and sequence. This connects right back to where we started. Kids learn best when they're having fun, right? And being strength-based. I took that child's strength, this interest in skateboarding, right, and used it to help him grow where he wanted to grow in the math.
[00:14:14] Olivia: Yeah, you're really making me think, though, also how relevancy plays a huge part in engagement, whether it's inside the walls of a public school or outside. And what a gorgeous example of tapping into one student's excitement and engagement around something that they're passionate about. Imagine if as educators, we were able to create units mathematically, perhaps in that example…the idea of history of skateboarding or in connection with mathematics, we could still study a variety of topics. So I think, you know, you're putting something out there that's much bigger than tutoring. It's around relevancy and engagement with students.
[00:15:00] Olivia: So that gets me right in the heart. And, uh, you know, I also know I do receive calls from families asking, and caregivers saying, you know, my child's not getting the support they need with the school system. We feel like we've exhausted all of the resources. When is the right time? It's such a hard decision to reach out, outside of the public system.
[00:15:26] Caitlin: Now. It's a really simple one-word answer. The answer is now. I don't mean to be glib about it. I mean, the reality is that we can help a child when things are already in crisis mode and things are on fire. Like, yes, we can certainly help, but it's much more effective for the whole family, for the child, for the parent, if we can get in and provide support ahead of something turning into a crisis. So if you have an inkling that support would be beneficial to your child, Don't wait, right? You can always dial it back. You can look for a practice like mine that doesn't compel you to commit to some sort of set duration or package, right? Like, yes, there are places where you have to sign on the dotted line for an entire semester or a dozen sessions or whatever it is, but not every practice is like that.
[00:16:06] Caitlin: Mine is not. So, you know, find a practice that is flexible and will let you get started. And if you need to dial it back, you can, but the way that I look at tutoring is I want my children and therefore all of the children we work with to go into school feeling as confident and capable as possible, right? And that way they have all of their resources to tackle whatever new challenge is going to come their way. Because the reality is there's always going to be a new challenge, right? Whether it's new academic material, it's a social challenge. It's something completely unforeseen, like a pandemic, like who knows, right?
[00:16:40] Caitlin: There's always going to be new challenges coming at our kids. So the more we can send them into school feeling that they have that foundation, that confidence and that capability, then they have all those resources to tackle whatever that new challenge is that comes at them.
[00:16:52] Olivia: And so I think, you know, when I hear you say you built it for your own child, that's amazing. And I also think it's really hard to be a caregiver and a tutor, um, and it, it really can rip relationships apart, uh, sadly, or it just add a lot of stress into the household. So, for me, any time that I've had outside support for one of my boys, it's always been a stress diffuser. It's, it's helpful, extraordinarily helpful to have them interacting and getting support that I cannot always provide. What are other benefits that you can share with caregivers specifically around why think about getting a tutor for your child if it's needed?
[00:17:39] Caitlin: Yeah, so first of all, like when we pictured becoming moms, nobody pictured being homework enforcer, right? That wasn't part of the like fantasy montage you had in your head, right? So, you know over and over again I get phone calls from parents saying homework in my house is creating so much stress in my relationship with my child. I don't want this stress, like how did I get stuck in this, right? And this is one of the areas where tutoring can be hugely helpful. Because the relationship your child has with a tutor is going to be very different than the relationship they have with a parent, as it should be, right?
[00:18:09] Caitlin: And so a lot of that emotional weightiness that infuses the dynamics around homework or studying for tests and things like that, when it's a parent and a child doing it together, it doesn't have that same emotional weightiness when it's the child and the, and the tutor together. Um, and what that does for parents is frees us up to play the role that only we can play, right? Which is the unconditional love, the emotional support for our child, which is more important. That's the part we cannot outsource. So please outsource the homework, right? That's the easy part, right? Outsource the, my child really didn't understand how to multiply fractions, and they've moved on to the next unit and, and he just has no idea what's happening.
[00:18:47] Caitlin: Right? Outsource that. And especially, I would send this message. to parents who feel stretched thin, right? If this is like we're working outside the home and we come home in the evening and we have an hour or two with our kids in the evening, it is going to do so much more for your child to use that time for genuine connection, right? Emotional connection and family time and parent-child connection time than it is to be like, let me run you through these flashcards and prove to me that you memorized these vocabulary words, right?
[00:19:16] Olivia: Yeah, so it's that's so true. How does your tutoring work with the school system in general? You're based in New York City. So how do your tutors connect with the children's teachers?
[00:19:28] Caitlin: Yeah, so that varies family by family. Some families want us to be more connected in the school, and others don't, and we're flexible. We'll go in whichever direction the family's comfortable with. My outlook is I'm part of a team, right? Like, let's imagine your child's name is Sarah. I am on team Sarah and Sarah's. teachers are on Team Sarah and any other practitioners of Sarah has an OT or an SLB, anything else like we are Team Sarah. So the more that all of us can be in communication and functioning as a team, the more Sarah thrives, right? That's my attitude. So anytime a family wants us to be involved with the school or a teacher wants to talk to us, I am there.
[00:20:00] Caitlin: I love that, right? Um, in the early years, I've been in private practice for 12 years now. In the early years, there was less of that. There were more teachers who, who felt a little bit defensive that bringing in a private tutor was somehow a criticism, implied criticism of what they were doing. But I am really thrilled to report that over the 12 years I've been doing it, there's been a massive shift in that. And almost all teachers, classroom teachers, I come across now see things the way I do that, like we should, we can be a team together and, and support this child to thrive.
[00:20:32] Olivia: That's such a lovely, uh, transparent and refreshing perspective. I love it. Team Sarah. Team Child. Um, and you know, we're all in this together. I always think of that notion that children can never be loved too much, uh, cared for too much. So, the more support they have, um, without, you know, helping them to thrive independently because that's the ultimate goal with any extra support, that thriving, um, in everything they're interested in outside, um, of the school, but inside the school too.
[00:21:07] Caitlin: It’s interesting what you said about independence too, because our goal is always academic independence. We never want tutoring to become a crutch. Um, and one of the areas where I find there is a new, um, focus and interest, and it's a great thing is executive functioning. So we got a lot of students in our practice now for executive functioning support where it's not like, oh, I'm coming to you for content and for a particular, you know, like math, like my example of multiplying fractions, but rather support and developing executive functioning skills across a variety of subjects. And then now that that is really part of the conversation more, um, again, to your point about evidence, like we have a lot of research on executive functioning skills.
[00:21:43] Caitlin: That is one of the biggest gifts that we can give to kids as educators when we think about academic independence or what I like to think of as like making them lifelong learners, right? Which is what I want for my own children, right? Is, is the support of the executive functioning skills. That's where the independence comes from.
[00:21:58] Olivia: Well, and so you're speaking my language when you say executive functioning skills. I understand fully what you mean. Can you define that though for listeners?
[00:22:06] Caitlin: Sure. So executive functioning skills are the skills that allow us to successfully execute tasks in simplest form. And with slightly more detail, what that means is skills that allow us to creatively problem solve, to manage our time, to organize both our thoughts and our materials, to set and achieve our goals, to take a large long-term project or something that feels overwhelming and break it down into actionable steps for ourselves. Um, and a big, the sort of like the big buckets of executive functioning would be, um, cognitive flexibility, which is that problem-solving piece, um, impulsivity or like impulse control in the sense of, um, ignoring or, or mitigating an impulse to focus on what is most relevant to what I'm trying to accomplish, um, and working memory, right?
[00:22:52] Caitlin: So working memory is, is huge, and I don't know how deep into the weeds you want to get with that, but when we see in terms of our kids' success in classroom settings, um, working memory is, is one of the biggest, um, aspects. It's like when I go and do PD for faculty, this is one of the things that we talk about.
[00:23:08] Caitlin: And it actually is completely connected to the idea of being neurodiversity-affirming, because many forms of neurodivergence impact executive functioning skill development. And what can happen? Well, you tell me what happens when you're a teacher and you're in front of 25 kids who are all different executive functioning development levels, and you give a one-size-fits-all ask to all 25 of them. What happens?
[00:23:29] Olivia: It pretty much falls apart and you have maybe two or three children that are with you and probably would have been with you regardless. Um, and then the rest, it's just, everyone's asking, what did you say? What do you need me to do? It’s chaos.
[00:23:42] Caitlin: So when I'm in front of faculty teams having this conversation doing professional development, I get answers like when I say what happens, I get chaos, pandemonium, right? Words like this. So we know it's not working, but what we need is for somebody to tell us what are the strategies, what are the tools that will work better than that? And that's where I come in on the, on the parent workshop and professional development for faculty side.
[00:24:07] Olivia: It's brilliant. It's brilliant. And I'm also thinking right now I'm reading, uh, Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman and something that I am talking to my, my older son, who's a junior in high school, and my younger son, who's a sixth grader in middle school is around really selecting two to three, I guess items that you have to accomplish that day and that they count the most. And it could be something that's hard, but if we're working on developing executive functioning skills with our children, ultimately, then they can be adults and even teenagers that are able to discern between what counts the most out of all of these directions I'm receiving, what tasks do I have to complete?
[00:24:56] Olivia: So I think as adults, you know, we, we can say executive functioning is something that children struggle with. I think it's something grownups struggle with as well, you know, so I could see that benefiting the whole family, all involved to have some education around executive functioning.
[00:25:14] Caitlin: So I love that you said that, because one of the things that I think is really important is sometimes where an adult's executive functioning and a child's executive functioning intersect, the adults will often expect, maybe they don't realize they're doing it, expect the child to adjust or be flexible, right? When in fact, the adult has gone through the phases of executive functioning development already that the child is still going through. And so we see this a lot. So here's an example I can give of this. So imagine that, you know, your child's in middle school or high school, so they're changing class periods, right?
[00:25:45] Caitlin: Different expectations, managing different expectations - that's an executive functioning skill, like the new expectation, each class period of a new teacher. So let's imagine we have one teacher who always writes the homework up on the board in the same spot and always reserves the last eight minutes of class for everybody to copy it down into their planners, right? And then let's imagine we have another teacher who, the bell rings, everybody's packing up, they're heading out the door, and the teacher is shouting, oh wait, read chapter three and answer questions two, seven, and fifteen, right? Those are two adults with vastly different executive functioning skills.
[00:26:14] Caitlin: But we're asking the same group of kids to be the flexible ones, to adjust to both of those styles, right? And a lot of times it's just because as adults we don't realize, we just don't realize. Like again, like I say that and you see like the heads in the room start to explode because people are going, oh my gosh, like I just never, never thought of it that way. Right?
[00:26:31] Olivia: Yeah, it's such a good example. It's such a good example. And because you've been on this tutoring journey for years now, I love to hear stories about children and their caregivers that you've impacted. So share a story about a student or tutoring or a child that surprised you based on your services.
[00:26:55] Caitlin: So, I had a family come to me with a middle schooler and the parents were sure that they were going to frighten me off. Right? That they were going to tell me things that like, they were just so sure that this child was broken. Right? And that there was just no way to help. And what was happening, one of the things that was happening was that she, the student, she was failing every test, every test she was failing and, I went into a meeting with the teacher trying to say, like, okay, what's happening here?
[00:27:26] Caitlin: Like what we got, we got really complex digging to do. And I was actually really, um, surprised by the result. And it ended up influencing the way that I approach, you know, I learn every child that I help I learned something. I'm always learning and growing. So I get onto the phone with the teacher and I'm asking questions. And I, and what we're finding out is like, okay, this child is demonstrating mastery of the material on group projects, 90% mastery demonstrated, class participation, 85% to 90% homework, 85% to 90% presentation, 90%, right? This is what the teacher is telling me.
[00:27:59] Caitlin: And I just had the epiphany - I went, this is not a child who's failing tests. This is a test that's failing to serve its function. Right? Because what is the purpose of a test? The purpose of a test is to assess mastery. Well, if all your other markers of mastery are showing you 85% to 90% and she's consistently failing the tests, it's not a child who's failing tests; it's a test that's failing to serve its purpose. Right? Anyway, this was a family - I'm making this a longer story than it needs to be. This is a family who at the end of this process with us, literally in tears of the mother said to me, you changed our life. I'm a little teary every time I tell this story.
[00:28:36] Caitlin: This is why I do the work that I do because this is a family that came to me convinced that their child was broken. Right? And in the end, it was just the test was failing to serve its purpose, right? For reasons, testing anxiety, and other things that were going on. Right? And with that, we change a child's life.
[00:28:55] Olivia: Well, and Caitlin also, why do we need a test in general to show mastery? Right? I mean, that speaks volumes too, because all of the other pieces and layers that you shared, she was showing understanding of the targets of the content. And so I think that is another piece of the educational system that is broken. Often, at the end of a unit, you say, you know, how are students going to show their understanding through reading, writing, talking, and problem-solving? If it is a test, that is so short-sighted. Um, so I love that you were able to advocate for this child and also bring to light, it shouldn't be a test.
[00:29:38] Olivia: That's the end game and showing mastery. Let it be a gorgeous project that the kids create and have a lot of say and voice in because she would feel even better about herself. Thank goodness you came into her life. Um, so Caitlin, I love the idea of, you know, Team Sarah, the Team Child. I still am pausing because I know that, you know, it can also feel adversarial sometimes with the caregiver, the tutor, all of these people, how do we nurture that caregiver-teacher school relationship?
[00:30:15] Caitlin: So I always encourage parents to go into their interactions with their teachers as though they are on a team also, and the reason for that is that if we are using any of our resources for antagonism in that relationship between caregiver or parent and teacher, right, then we don't have those resources to use to meet the external challenge, which is how do we help this child thrive?
[00:30:35] Caitlin: So the follow-up question people always ask is like, okay, that sounds great. But like, what does that really mean in action? Right? So what I say is first, I always start the year by reaching out at the start of the year. Don't be afraid to reach out to your child's teacher. Over-and-over again teachers tell me they want that because you know your child best, right? So listen, this is a busy time of year. It's not your moment for an hour-long meeting, right? But a quick phone call just to say, here's some things that will really help my child thrive in your classroom, right?
[00:31:00] Caitlin: Or here's a challenge my child has experienced this summer that you might want to know about…helps set your child and the teacher up for success from day one in that relationship. Past that first point, I'm looking for opportunities to express gratitude. This is how I'm building the foundation of my team, right? So let's say your child's assistant teacher leaves the classroom two months into the school year unexpectedly.
[00:31:22] Caitlin: That's a great opportunity to reach out to the head teacher and just express gratitude for providing such sturdiness and stability for the kids, right? Or let's say your child comes home glowing because the teacher asked her about her interest in marine biology. We should send a quick email - oh, Susan told me how great the conversation was about the sea turtles and she was so happy to talk to you about it.
[00:31:41] Caitlin: Thanks so much for taking that time with her, right? So we're building up this relationship so that if we do face a challenge later, we've already established some sense of teamwork, right? As opposed to just communicating around the challenge. There's a lot more we can say there. I don't know what you want me to go into, but that's, that's where it begins.
[00:31:59] Olivia: Well, and I think I appreciate the idea of pausing to say thank you or pausing to acknowledge positive interactions because I don't think as caregivers we do that enough of just dropping a line - I hear about 20 times a week, different, uh, experiences that both of my boys have had with their teachers that are amazing, or just the simple, my younger son will say, um, his science, he adores a science teacher and he'll just under his breath say, she's the best.
[00:32:31] Olivia: And just that it's like, I think it speaks volumes. Right? Um, and I also, the idea of relevancy that we were speaking to, you know, school is not just the place where learning takes place. And I think we have to pause and recognize that. How do you share that idea or concept with educators or caregivers you're working with? Where does learning happen?
[00:32:56] Caitlin: So learning is everywhere. That's as core to what I do as believing that kids learn best when they have fun, right? Learning is everywhere. And um, when we think about our child's educational experience, school is one part of it. School may be a very important part of it, but it's not the only part, right?
[00:33:10] Caitlin: The only place your child learns is not within the four walls of the classroom, and not just on homework that gets sent home from school. Your child is learning all the time, right? You couldn't stop them from learning if you tried, basically. So one of the things I like to talk to parents about is how do we find those learning moments in our everyday life?
[00:33:28] Caitlin: So I'll give you an example. I have a five-year-old and a nine-year-old. I'm on line for a bouncy house at a carnival with my five-year-old. We’ve got a long wait, so I know I need to keep him engaged and entertained and also this is a great opportunity, but the learning is everywhere. So what are we going to do? We're going to count how many kids are online ahead of us for the bouncy house, right? Then we're going to say, okay, if half of those kids got to go on, how many kids would be left in this line, right? And then we're going to say, are you noticing how many kids are getting to go into the bouncy house together as a group?
[00:33:56] Caitlin: Oh, four, interesting. And you counted that there were 20 people on this line. So if they're going in groups of four, how many groups are going to get to go in before it's our turn? Now you might tell me a five-year-old can't do division. Right? But I'm going to tell you, yes, they can. And here's why, because I didn't sit down with a worksheet and drill my kid and here's the algorithm for division.
[00:34:18] Caitlin: But while we're standing there online, it's relevant. It's part of our life experience. Right? And that's one example. I mean, I could give you a thousand examples. Next time you're walking past a river, throw some things in it, which float, which sink, you know, that alone, that's a learning moment. Right? And it's tiny, if my bouncy house math example felt overwhelming, right? Like that's, that's a little one, just awesome stuff in the river.
[00:34:38] Olivia: It's fantastic. And you know, I also think there's something to be said for slowing down and looking and observing what's around us because children are ready to take in their surroundings and our world of phones and media and all this distraction, you know, when we're in a car, we really try to not have any devices on and just take in the world around us and to notice. And I think that that's what I hear you also advocating for. We can learn when we slow down and take in our surroundings, um, and ironically can also help to distract from the frustrations we're feeling. So, thank you, that example is super helpful. Do you ever support groups of children or is it mostly just that one-on-one?
[00:35:26] Caitlin: So at Joyfully Learning, which is our private tutoring practice, we do one-on-one. We do one tutor with a pair, and then we do a pair of students, and then we do small groups of three and four. We don't go bigger than four, uh, because I have found that the real value in what we're bringing, besides all of these high-level concepts we're talking about, like strengths-based, neurodiversity-affirming, the value that we're bringing is really that individualization, that differentiation. And if we grow with a group larger than four, we're not really able to provide that, right?
[00:35:52] Caitlin: And that is the privilege of private tutoring, right? And that's why I just want to acknowledge for classroom teachers who are listening, I get that it's a position of privilege that I'm sitting in going like, well, I don't want to work with a group of more than four. And they've got 30 kids in front of them. Like, I totally get that. And that speaks to your point of when it's time to bring in a private tutor. And why I say like, now, right away don't wait. Because what I, once I realized I worked in a classroom setting earlier in my career and once I realized the impact, I could have one-on-one, or somewhere between one-on-one and one-to-four.
[00:36:19] Caitlin: Um, it, it just changed everything for me. And that's why I work in the space that I work in. Now, if somebody has a bigger group that needs support, that's where we'll do like parent workshops or PD for schools.
[00:36:29] Olivia: Yes, and again, transferring to public education in the classroom, what we can still do that one-on-one conferring is the way you make connections with children. You get to know their strengths and then you design your instruction based on those needs moving forward. So…
[00:36:47] Caitlin: You know, it's really interesting as I find that, um, many of our teachers spend a great deal of their resources and time and energy on classroom management, right? Worrying about classroom management, classroom management strategies. And one of the things that I would love all of our teachers to take away is the more that you build authentic connection with each student, the less you have to worry about classroom management because that level of connection and feeling authentic belonging reduces all of those behaviors that you consider to be challenging. More so than any sticker chart or giving out pom poms or whatever, you know, the extrinsic motivation strategy of the week is, right?
[00:37:22] Olivia: Yeah. And engaging curricula, right? So designing interesting daily instruction based off of what the students are understanding the day before. And I'm still, you know, fighting the battle against those scripted basalized curricula that tell a teacher what they need to teach every day.
[00:37:42] Olivia: And they are totally missing the point that we are teaching humans, not this, you know, day-to-day to day. So I think the shift in education needs to continue to be, you know, what, you know, how are we trying to make these people better humans, in general? And how are we going to make the topics they're studying relevant and exciting, connected to the content?
[00:38:06] Olivia: And so that engagement goes up, behavior issues go down, um, and we can really scoop kids up. And. I know that there's such a need for what you're doing, and that's why it's such an honor to have your voice in the mix. Um, and I appreciate you as a teacher. I appreciate you as a mom. Um, and I also want listeners to be able to get in touch with you. Um, so I know you have a gorgeous website. What is the best way to, um, to reach out?
[00:38:38] Caitlin: Yeah, the two best ways to find me are either via our website, which is joyfullylearning.com, or to find me on Instagram, where I'm at Caitlin Greer Meister, um, and just DM me there. I love what I do. I love talking about what I do in case you can't tell. And so every time I have one of these conversations, I want anybody listening to think of it as the beginning of something, not the end of something. Right? And if you heard something here today that resonated for you, or you have questions about, reach out to me through joyfullylearning.com on Instagram. Let's talk about it. I would love nothing more.
[00:39:09] Olivia: Well, and so, because I want to keep all children joyfully learning, pun intended. What would you say is our call to action moving forward?
[00:39:20] Caitlin: Our call to action is to remember that our kids come to us curious and joyful in their learning and the decisions that we make either nurture that or diminish it. And so let's get informed about what choices we can make to nurture and encourage that joy and that curiosity. The information is out there. If you don't know where to find it, that's a great reason to reach out to me. I can give it to you. Right? Um, but, but yeah, that's it, our call to action is let us be nurturers of the joy and the curiosity that our kids come to us with.
[00:39:49] Olivia: Ah, boom. Fabulous. Oh, Caitlin, this has been enlightening. Uh, thank you for the important work you're doing and your passion exudes from you. I'm excited after our conversation and, you know, I'm just grateful that families and caregivers and even teachers can have, uh, someone to reach out that feels safe. You're welcoming and, you know, I think it's just exciting and inclusive. So I appreciate you.
[00:40:15] Caitlin: Thank you so, so much for having me.
[00:40:18] Olivia: Yes, take care. Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Caitlin Greer Meister. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.