[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to share my dear friend and thought partner with all of you, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Um, Wendy and I have had quite the journey, and we are going to start a new adventure and that adventure is going to include talking, thinking, sharing, pushing back on each other's ideas. And so let's get into it. We thought it would be important to share our journey and how we met. And how we've become really, really good friends over time. So, um, Wendy, what is your first recollection of meeting me?
[00:00:55] Wendy: My first recollection is not meeting you, but sitting in a professional development that you were providing in a district where I live, um, and then it was, gosh, several years, I'd say, at least five years before I actually met you, um, and so I was predisposed to think, wow. And, I mean, that hasn't changed one bit. I still think, wow, but, um, I'm so glad that I don't just see you as a professional development provider any longer, but I see you as a colleague and a friend.
[00:01:42] Olivia: I remember sitting - you're so pristine, and it's intimidating to hang out with you sometimes because of your knowledge base, and you're brilliant. And so I remember the first time most recently, I would say the last couple of years, that we've really become close, we were sitting in a room together, and I thought, oh, my gosh, I am so out of my league in this room.
[00:02:06] Olivia: I don't know whether it's imposter syndrome or what it's called. But I remember sitting with Cris Tovani, Sam Bennett, you in a room, and we were thrown a research document that was, I think, 35 pages, and we, you know, as instructional coaches, district coaches, we were basically told, you know, we need to go jump into classrooms and use the research to name what we see in here.
[00:02:35] Olivia: And I thought, I am so overwhelmed. I can't do this, but I didn't want to let anyone know how overwhelmed I was. And, um, I eventually confided in you that I was really overwhelmed and you shared, you felt the same way. So, I knew I had a kindred spirit.
[00:02:49] Wendy: Precisely.
[00:02:52] Olivia: Right? And then, over the last couple of years, um, I have come to trust you as a dear friend and confidant. And I ask you lots and lots of questions just because of where I've been on my literacy journey. And you've been in such a different place and gone in such a different direction that I find it fascinating. Um, so I think we need to introduce ourselves, and I need to reintroduce myself to listeners. Um, so I'd love first for folks to understand who you are and all of your brilliance, Dr. Wendy Bunker, share with listeners.
[00:03:33] Wendy: Sure. Um, my first educational experience was as an undergrad at Potsdam University where I majored in English. And education, of course, so secondary English. And, um, then I went to work or to, sorry, to get my master's in reading in what is now literacy, but was then reading through Cortland. Um, and I had not done an awful lot of work in the in the intervening years. I'd moved around quite a bit with my family and had done some subbing, but after finishing my master's, I got a job as a reading specialist. Initially, I was serving, goodness, grades 4, 5, 6 through 12. So I was in two buildings, an elementary building, and a junior-senior high school building.
[00:04:30] Wendy: And then after about five years serving a 3-12 population, I was then able to move into one building only. So I served K-6. So I've taught reading to kindergartners up through seniors and adults. I did, um, while I was moving around with my family, I did work in the GED program and helped a couple of students who were struggling readers then.
[00:05:01] Wendy: Um, I felt like I didn't know enough about reading to provide what I, what I believed was the best instruction for kids. So, after ten years as a reading specialist in that district, I decided to go back to school. So, I went to Syracuse University. I have my doctorate in what is now literacy. And, um, that was a really mind-blowing and amazing experience. And I wouldn't have traded; it was hard work, but I wouldn't have traded it for anything. So, I did, um, delve into higher ed as a full-time teacher and as an adjunct, um, and then, um, came happily to another district near me. And I served as a 7 through 12 reading specialist, um, in a rural district, which was probably one of my very favorite jobs. And, um, after a time saw that that job might not continue because of funding and things like that. Special education teachers are able to provide that sort of instruction. So, with the handwriting on the wall, um, and a job open at BOCES, which is a Board of Cooperative Educational Services here in New York, I, um, took an open position as a curriculum specialist ten years ago now, and that's been fun, um, a lot of fun.
[00:06:46] Wendy: I think the, the thing that I thrill most about in that job is the thing that you and I are connected with, um, the work of Cris Tovani and Sam Bennett in a district where we are serving as, um, instructional coaches, and that is, um, uh, probably the most inspiring and, um, affirming work that I've ever done. So, and I'm thrilled that you and I are doing it together.
[00:07:22] Olivia: I couldn’t agree more. Me too, me too. Um, what is your involvement or what, um, have you, how have you been influenced by The Reading League as well?
[00:07:30] Wendy: Ah, so I had the immense honor and pleasure of having Dr. Benita Blachman. As one of my professors at Syracuse University, I worked alongside Maria Murray and Heidi Beverine-Curry, Dr. Maria Murray, and Dr. Heidi Beverine-Curry. We were, um, fellow students. We were working on one of Dr. Blachman's, um, studies. And so, um, I know, um, you know, I was brought up in the same, um, learning and experiences that they were. So I, I so admire what they're doing. The fact that they are bringing the science of reading to New York State and to other states in the union.
[00:08:30] Wendy: It's, it's a message that is so important for all students, but especially for those students who have not been successful learning to read with first time instruction. And I get a little passionate about this. So, um, so I'll try to keep it, keep it, keep the lid on a little bit. But, um, yeah, the, what they're doing is uh, phenomenal and it's, as I said, it's just, it's a delight to, to know that the work of Dr. Blachman and the hard work that Dr. Murray and Dr. Beverine-Curry have done is being, um, is being used and is spreading.
[00:09:18] Olivia: I think you are a beacon for me, um, of knowledge and of just constant clarification. I continue to hear the term unlearning and it's been really hard for me to wrap my mind around. Um, I also feel like I should reintroduce myself in a way, because most folks know that I am the host of this podcast. Um, yet, this is something I do as a passion on the side very early in the morning, often before I jump into schools to support teachers and, educators and administrators.
[00:09:55] Olivia: So I actually acquired my undergrad at Niagara University in Niagara Falls, New York, and I double majored and pre-K through 6th grade elementary - it was elementary education then and then 7 through 12 English. And was so sick of winter (even though I love the snow now, I moved to sunny San Diego and started my teaching career.
[00:10:20] Olivia: And, uh, I was in an elementary building, Marshall Elementary. Most of the children were bilingual or multilingual. And, um, I acquired my master's from Chapman University in Curriculum and Instruction. I ended up moving back to New York City and teaching, um, in Murray Hill neighborhood. It was incredible, again, working with a lot of bilingual children, but they were diplomats’ children from the United Nations. And then, um, ended up moving to upstate New York to raise our family. And our paths crossed, um at a perfect time in life because it was really at the precipice of the science of reading movement taking hold and me questioning everything I had ever known when it came to teaching reading, and it was horrible. I didn't really know where to go, who to ask. Most of my training was through Columbia University's Teacher's College.
[00:11:24] Olivia: I was informally trained with Reading Recovery and, um, The term balanced literacy is still near and dear to my heart, but I'm having a reckoning with this And you are a constant for me of someone I can come to and ask, you know, does this still make sense? What is still valuable and what do we need to let go of because it's been proven to not be effective practice with children. And I think that that is what I'm most excited about in the future of this adventure we're embarking upon. Every other Monday we are going to release a quick conversation for listeners 10/15 minutes max. We're going to pick a topic that is something we're seeing as coaches, something that's in the news. And we're going to stay laser-line focused on that topic and flesh it out together.
[00:12:21] Olivia: Um, we are going to push back on each other's thinking with kindness. I am tired of the term reading wars. It doesn't need to be a war. Um, and we won't always agree, and I'm okay with that, too. Um, but I am really just honored to be on this journey with you, to have you as a thought partner. And, um, yeah, I'm excited that I think is the goal of what we're going to start putting out there into the world together.
[00:12:49] Olivia: So, yay!
[00:12:51] Wendy: I agree.
[00:12:52] Olivia: Wendy, you always leave me with brilliance. And so leave listeners after hearing everything I just went on and on about, you know, what, what can you leave us with? So you
[00:13:04] Wendy: So you mentioned unlearning and, and I also would disagree with that. It's not unlearning and, and there's an expression when you know better (and I think this is Maya Angelou) when you know better, you do better. So it's, it's a case of knowing more and being able to use the best of what we know about teaching and bring it to kids so that we can serve them in the best way possible. There is at core of whole language, phonics, whatever camp you land in, the goal of bringing kids to reading and filling their lives with text that helps them become better humans.
[00:13:49] Wendy: And really that's what it's all about. And the way we get there is worth discussing, but certainly not worth having, um, explosions over. Um, it would be great to come together in consensus, but we all bring knowledge and gifts that can be harnessed and, and used in ways that are the best for kids.
[00:14:17] Olivia: That's why I love you Wendy! You always, you bring, you bring us back and this is what we're all about. We're all about children and students and, um, creating a world where we're, we're nurturing better humans and that's through a world of access to literacy. And, um, so join us listeners, join us on this journey and, um, we're excited and we can't wait for you to, um, be part of our conversations. So thank you, Wendy, my dear friend.
[00:14:51] Wendy: Thank you!
[00:14:54] Olivia: And yeah, here we go! Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my friend and thought partner, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.