[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker, and we are going to have a conversation around the term research today.
[00:00:24] Olivia: Um, Wendy, it's something we've promised followers that with our, What We Know Now series, we will be talking about issues in public education that are current, that are happening now. And I was just sharing with you on the 16th and 17th of January, two pieces were released. Um, one of them is called “My Research is Better than
Your Research” Wars.
[00:00:49] Olivia: And, and another is Evidence-Based Does Not
Mean What You Think (It Does). Um, I will make sure to include links to those in the show notes. But, what it reminded me about is a conversation that we had had way back, I think in October, I was picking your brain about, you know, what makes research, the term research, so contentious?
[00:01:12] Olivia: Why are people getting so upset about research? And I thought, you know what, that conversation was extraordinarily helpful for me. Why would we not share that with everyone else that wants to hear it? Um, so with that said, let's talk research. And, um, it was helpful for me when you defined the terms qualitative, quantitative. So can you get in and just define some of the terminology that's thrown around with research?
[00:01:40] Wendy: Of course. Yes. Um, so quantitative and qualitative are two aspects of what's called empirical research, meaning that there's something observable that there is, um you know, there's some sort of evidence that is concrete that's not theoretical. So under that empirical umbrella, we have quantitative research that, which we think of in many different aspects of what's considered hard science, which includes education, but that's this, the research or the, the, um, science that has to do with numbers. Statistical significance, um, things that are, um, quantify well, obviously quantifiable that you can do something you can see the number of something.
[00:02:34] Wendy: So, um, for example, the National Reading Panel Report, which came out in 2000, looked at a huge array of research. But the research that they used to show the effectiveness of programs or to say these things are vitally important in the teaching of reading, that was the quantitative research, because, as I said, it was numerical.
[00:03:02] Wendy: It was statistical. They could show the effect, the effectiveness of the different things that were out there. Qualitative research is sometimes considered the soft research, the soft science; psychology, philosophy, things like that. So in the world of education, we use both and sometimes there's mixed methods.
[00:03:25] Wendy: So to get back to qualitative, that would be things like, um, interviews, um, observe classroom observations, um, or, you know, observations of people, um, focus groups, things where you're getting people's views on things, and then you're looking for trends and from those trends, then you can extrapolate and say, these things are often, um, part of whatever it is that you're studying.
[00:03:56] Wendy: And then, as I said, there are mixed methods where people use something from the quantitative world, and the qualitative world, and then, their study comes out of that. The thing that we, that I think is important to remember is quantitative and qualitative research, that empirical research, that's often grounded in the world of academia, where you've got an institutional review board that has to approve the study. And then the study is set up, whether it's qualitative or quantitative with very clear, um, method. And it's, it's very controlled where action research, which is still research, but that's often done in a classroom where a teacher, or a group of teachers, or an entire building or district would have an inquiry.
[00:04:54] Wendy: There might be a problem that they want to solve. Um, a great example that I was thinking of was, um, if you were a district that was implementing the science of reading, and you had chosen a program for phonic decoding, phonemic awareness. phonological awareness instruction and you were curious about how it was going to impact your students.
[00:05:16] Wendy: You could set up an action research project within your own classroom or your own building without bringing in someone from higher ed to do a more formalized study. Which could also, that could happen, but that's sort of how we define the difference between empirical and action research.
[00:05:37] Olivia: So that's extraordinarily helpful. And it's something I often think about it's money, you know, you know, I get, I can be jaded. Sometimes I think of motivation, like what is making someone tick? And I think that's helpful for me as a person and trying to cue into what, uh, what, what's the motivation behind different things. And I think about research a lot with this because grants and money play a huge part when it comes to research and whether research studies receive funding at, especially at the university level, that I've heard before that grants are the lifeblood of research. And so often it's very difficult because the smaller studies, even if it is under that action research umbrella, they don't get funded because they are qualitative instead of quantitative.
[00:06:33] Wendy: Sure.
[00:06:34] Olivia: And there's not that test measure. Right? I also am such a dork, you know, with all of my prefix obsession. Uh, that's how I remember the difference between quantitative (quantity) and qualitative (quality). Right. And, and I think that's just a little trick I have up my sleeve. Um, but I think so much about the, the grants and the money that goes into research. Um, so then, you know, let's pivot because that idea of war is something that we refuse to be a part of anymore. We're not doing it. Um, and when we're thinking of that contention, why would certain folks or experts lean more toward different kinds of research based on that, that explanation that you just gave?
[00:07:26] Wendy: Um, well, I think the people who trust the statistics are going to lean toward quantifiable data, right? And then the people who believe, or who are focused on let's say the whole child, um, their, their social emotional needs, how, how they're improving day to day. Um, and the way that my teaching is going to impact your learning, um, they might go more toward the action research. Um, not, and it doesn't, the, the emotional piece is not necessarily tied to that, um, because people who, look, who do the numerical, you know, the statistical research, obviously they care as well. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the research, right? So it's not a, it's not a matter of caring or looking at human beings with compassion, but it's, it's where do I base my, um, trust in the, you know, the, the product or the, the data that's coming out of it?
[00:08:41] Wendy: Um, and, and obviously the, the, uh, quantifiable data is considered hard data. You can't, you really can't question it, right? The action research, um, and especially if you have a classroom size sample, that's true for your classroom, but it's not necessarily true for a classroom in Missouri or a classroom in Florida.
[00:09:08] Olivia: Well, it's it's very subjective. And there's a lot of social factors. I would say, too, that play into that idea of action research that are not measurable and that require much more change and impact from outside of the educational field in general. So the other thing I've been thinking a lot about when it comes to research is how we are using research, and it's been such a part of our life as coaches, especially these last couple of years. And we've tried really hard to get smarter and have researchers' names at our fingertips when we're jumping into classrooms.
[00:09:49] Olivia: But I know both of us have looked at, you know, what do we believe to be true about being educators? What are our beliefs? And what practices would you see that align with those beliefs and what I really had missing over a lot of my career was having research at my fingertips that would align with my beliefs and practices.
[00:10:16] Olivia: And it would have my back for that term we use often now, you know, what research has a back. And I jumped to my website, and I thank goodness you've given it a couple of reads for me too. I redesigned my bio page. It's now bio and beliefs and anyone that wants to check it out; there are links embedded with nuggets of research that totally have my back and my practices as an educator and coach, and it's been next level.
[00:10:45] Olivia: You know, I think it's that research; knowing that there are experts out there that have done some of the legwork and can support and validate practices you believe in. It's everything, you know, sure.
[00:10:59] Wendy: Sure. Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, I know that um, we oftentimes or just about every time that we're with a teacher and when we leave their classrooms, that's one of the things that we do when we write them a coaching note is to add a piece of research that resonates with us, but primarily we draw it from what we've seen in the classroom. And that, like you said, it has your back. We do that so that when the classroom teacher, um is looking at the research. It's not coming from Olivia. It's not coming from Wendy. It's coming from us, but also those giants on whose shoulders we’re standing. So…
[00:11:50] Olivia: Yeah, I couldn't - that's so beautifully articulated. And, you know, also thinking of that notion of evidence-based. I just, I pressed pause with that because evidence of what, like, what are we actually measuring? Right? Are we measuring whether the student is happy? Are we measuring whether they're content and they're getting a job?
[00:12:12] Olivia: Like that long-term picture? Or are we measuring test data? Because Wendy, we both know that state tests do not give you a glimpse into who a child is. Um, they're a drop in the bucket, but they're easily accessible. It's easily accessible information. The other thing…
[00:12:30] Wendy: So that's where the action research comes in. Because, um, so many of those practitioner, um, textbooks that we look at, not textbooks, but books that we're using, um, are that action research, and they do look at the child, not just as a test taker, or as a number, um, a statistic, but they take that, um that holistic approach and then they're the folks who do that work, then write about it. And so many of us buy those books because we see the application in our own practice.
[00:13:19] Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. I am so excited uh, next week to embark upon a learning lab with you and the week after that we have another learning lab experience too; one at the elementary building and another high school level. Right? And so we're going to be steeped in research. So, I know you also mentioned that we use research one-on-one as we're coaching teachers. I think that the way to really build capacity in a district, um, as a staff is with these learning labs that we have the privilege of being a part of, you know, if we're jumping into a classroom with colleagues all being in the same Google Doc.
[00:14:05] Olivia: No one is talking to each other, but we're virtually talking through a Google Doc and all of us are naming what do we see and hear teachers doing? What do we see and hear children doing and saying, um, and then aligning research with those practices collectively. And really honing in when we debrief, it's not what we love, even though we're probably naming things that we like, but it's actually articulating I saw this. I heard this. And this is why it matters to children because this is what the research says. I cannot say how transformative those debriefs have been, um, and the conversation, we've all gotten so smart collectively; holy collective advocacy Batman, right? We've gotten so smart because we're talking about practices, but always connecting them to research.
[00:15:04] Olivia: So, that's what I'm excited. I can't wait for the next two weeks to be with you, but also to see amazing practice in classrooms. So it's exciting work.
[00:15:14] Wendy: It surely is. Yeah.
[00:15:29] Olivia: Yeah. So I'm glad we were able to unpack research a bit in a quick conversation. And that listeners get to learn as I did from you that early morning before one of our labs started. So here's to research and getting smarter together, Wendy.
[00:15:33] Wendy: Yep. Absolutely.
[00:15:34] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my colleague and friend, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.