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S3E22: What We Know Now About the Science of Reading (NYSED Literacy Brief 1) with Olivia Wahl & Dr. Wendy Bunker

• Olivia Wahl • Season 3 • Episode 22

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Olivia Wahl and Dr. Wendy Bunker introduce the seven recently released Science of Reading Literacy Briefs by the New York State Education Department. The briefs were produced for the NYSED by Nonie K. Lesaux, PhD and Katie C. Carr, M.Ed. This episode focuses on Literacy Brief 1: Science of Reading: What is it? Literacy Brief 1 centers around five key ideas that Olivia and Wendy break down and connect to the students, educators, and caregivers most impacted by them.

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Schoolutions – S3 E22: What We Know Now About the Science of Reading (NYSED Literacy Brief 1) with Olivia Wahl & Dr. Wendy Bunker


[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am excited to be here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Uh, we are going to be starting a series, and we live in New York State. New York State recently released a series of Literacy Briefs, and over the next gosh, Wendy, I'd say a few months every other Monday, um, we are going to go in-depth with one of the literacy briefs. These briefs were created by Dr. Nonie K. Lesaux and Katie Carr, M.Ed. for New York State, but many states across the nation are embarking upon trying to make sense of the Science of Reading and what that means in their school district.
[00:00:54] Olivia: The overview of the briefs. Brief 1 that we're going to dive into today is called Science of Reading: What is it?Um, and Brief 2 that will be tackling a couple of Mondays from now, Science of Reading: Debunking Common Myths. The third brief focuses on The Role of Writing. Fourth, The Pre-K Years, fifth brief focuses on The Elementary Years, sixth brief, The Secondary Years, and the seventh brief is focused on Leading for Literacy.
[00:01:25] Olivia: So my friend, Wendy, um, you are an ever-present source of information for me. You let me pick your brain and question, question, question. So when we're talking about the Science of Reading, this brief is broken down into five bigger key ideas. You and I are each going to tackle a couple of the key ideas and have a conversation going back and forth about this work.
[00:01:48] Olivia: Um, key idea one is actually focused around the Science of Reading reflecting a body of research. And there's a quote on the front of this page one, um, that, articulates and captures what or how the Science of Reading is defined. So let's jump in. “The Science of Reading reflects research in education, psychology, linguistics, neuroscience, sociology, speech and language pathology, implementation, science, and other fields. Integrating discoveries from across disciplines creates a comprehensive understanding of the reading and writing processes.”
[00:02:31] Olivia: So, Science of Reading is coming from a large body of research grounded in many different, um, competencies and, and lenses of research. You've lived this world for a long time, um, and been steeped in it as a teacher, as a coach as well. Um, so when we're thinking of that key idea one, it goes even more in-depth then, and I have the brief in front of me, into key idea two. Um, and there's a lot of pushback around this key idea right now in the world of education. And so key idea two, “The Science of Reading informs instruction from early childhood through adolescence for all populations.”
[00:03:19] Olivia: So let's talk about that because a lot of the pushback that is happening, especially over the last few years, is because word reading instruction and the primary grades, um, has been what many are deeming inept, uh, vocabulary comprehension, fostering engagement. So, can you speak to that a little bit more? You know, what should have been happening based on your knowledge of the Science of Reading?
[00:03:49] Wendy: Well, I think the, I won't even go to what should have been happening. I'd rather talk about how this is, um, really meeting the needs of all learners and whether you are six or sixty, this offers the opportunity for everyone to acquire the skill of reading. And that leads to comprehension, of course. And the beautiful thing about this is that it is equitable for all. Reading and the ability to make sense of the print on a page, um, or a screen is becoming more and more critical in this country, but also in the world, not just in the field of education, but, um, as a life skill, a career skill.
[00:04:48] Wendy: So literacy is the biggest demand, in my opinion, that we have for education, and that doesn't limit it to ELA, to English Language Arts. It's literacy across content areas in all ways of learning and of understanding the world. So that this brings that to the forefront of everyone's mind and it places it's important squarely in K-12 education.
[00:05:22] Olivia: I think something that continues to just strike me because much of our time these days as coaches is spent with middle and high school students and teachers, um, we are seeing vast amounts of students that are striving readers, and you and I talk about this often of is there an opportunity to catch them up? Like this key idea says yes, it's from early childhood through adolescence. You know, there's there's a lot of people that say the idea of phonics with middle and high school or secondary levels isn't really something that should be happening or it's too late. We'll get into that in a different conversation.
[00:06:06] Olivia: What has stopped me in my tracks is the work, especially with those primary grades, kindergarten specifically, um, of where my training was so focused on voluminous reading, voluminous reading, and steeping children in what we'll call “just right” books. And so as I get smarter, as we all get smarter together, this really is about access and allowing all children to leave my gosh by the end of second grade fluently reading so that they have access to all of the texts they want to read.
[00:06:46] Olivia: Um, something else that struck me yesterday, part of our conversation is just around interest and that we know darn well if a child is interested or has background knowledge, um, when it comes to a topic or a text that they want to read, that they will be able to read it more successfully than if they don't. So, before you jump into key idea three, I think I'm really asking myself, how are we focused on building children's background knowledge through a variety of experiences when it comes to literacy instruction, but also integrating content areas? And so they are able to access texts as often as possible. So…
[00:07:27] Wendy: It's a lofty goal. Um, and we, it's so beneficial that we have, um, that the Science of Reading draws from so many different areas of research. So that it is, it is grounded in all of those things that are, that we know, um, are important, uh, the, the cognitive science, the, the science, the research on reading, et cetera. So, as you alluded to, the third key idea is that idea of structured literacy instruction. And I think some of what you just said, um, paves the way for us to talk about that a little bit. It is the idea of the structured literacy is that the, um, instruction is comprehensive. It's, um, it's giving all of the pieces that that learners need to acquire the skill of decoding of understanding print.
[00:08:32] Wendy: One of the key pieces of this is that when we introduce a new idea, we always go back to the ideas that have already been taught. So we're, we're constantly revisiting what students have already learned. So we're going from known to new. So that there's always something in your brain to attach the new learning to. It's sequenced in a way that the skills that are being acquired, again, built on the things that have already been established. Lots and lots of practice, lots and lots of reading of, in this case, especially for the younger students, decodable texts. So that kids feel that success of, I can read this.
[00:09:17] Wendy: Certainly, we're using other texts, lots of read alouds for young students to build that background knowledge, to build that oral vocabulary, um, which we know is so critical for comprehension. And always meaning that comprehension is the goal of reading. There's no question about that. So we use that explicit direct instruction.
[00:09:40] Wendy: We think about where students are on a day-to-day basis. We look at our data. We have so much information that we draw from to provide that instruction so that students, that learners, are always moving from where they are now to where they need to be next. So that also takes us nicely to the, the idea of, um, the skills, the competencies that we want students to acquire in the National Reading Panel Report, which I know we've mentioned before in 2000, it established five key ideas, five pillars, some people say, and those are phonological awareness, phonics, which are two, they're linked, but they're not the same thing, comprehension, fluency, and vocabulary. And one of the great things about this document, this set of briefs, is that they've also incorporated the idea of oral language and oral language is critical to background knowledge, which is key for comprehension.
[00:10:55] Wendy: So all of those things together, um, build on or the simple, the, the, um, the idea of the Science of Reading is a component of that, but it's a key foundational element of that, all of those other skills, vocabulary, fluency, that build to comprehension.
[00:11:16] Olivia: Right. Can I ask you to define some of the language that you are so fluent with because it's what you live and breathe? So when you just said specifically phonological awareness and phonics are not the same thing, what, what do you mean by that?
[00:11:31] Wendy: So phonological awareness has to do with the sounds. They, um, there's a broad umbrella, which is phonological awareness, and then there's a smaller component under that, which is phonemic awareness. And the umbrella of phonological awareness includes things like our ability to rhyme, our ability to take a word, a sentence, and divide it into words to understand that the sentence, I am sitting in my dining room, which has six words is composed of six words. Um, the, and then the phoneme or phonological awareness is the ability to hear, to detect, to divide or segment is the word, blend and manipulate the individual sounds in a word.
[00:12:23] Wendy: So the word cat has three phonemes, /c/ /a/ /t/. Not everyone has that skill just like automatic. Sometimes it has to be taught and cultivated, and that's one of the things that we uh, know, to be critical in the Science of Reading and teaching this explicit, direct way. Um…
[00:12:51] Olivia: And wait, may, let me ask you a question. Phoneme awareness; just again, to reiterate, or phonemic awareness. It's not based on seeing the grapheme or the letter. It's purely based on the sound.
[00:13:03] Wendy: Correct. So phonics then builds on the sound. We take, we speech is sound. So phonics takes the, the, um, alphabetic representations, the letters that we use and layers those on top of sound so that we in print are able to represent the words that we hear and that we understand.
[00:13:30] Olivia: I love that you're using that word represent, because I know in past years of really studying phonemes and graphemes, it's, it's that idea of when you hear a sound, right? Encoding and decoding. So decoding is reading, encoding is trying to write (to spell). Right? So as, right? So as you're trying to write or encode, hearing and saying the sounds aloud, and then closing your eyes and asking yourself which grapheme or letter can represent those sounds? So that idea of graphemes represent a myriad of sounds, and that is where I think education, especially undergraduate education, has fallen grossly short, um, with training teachers, especially elementary teachers, how to teach reading and the understanding of phonological awareness, uh, all together.
[00:14:28] Wendy: Yes. One of Governor Hochul's initiatives, which was in a broadcast on the 3rd of January. is that, um, the Science of Reading needs to be a key feature at the district level, but also at the on the, um, higher ed level for teacher education.
[00:14:48] Olivia: Right. And that's, we'll hit that, um, in our conversation when it comes to Brief 7. I know, um, I want to go back to something just to speak to it. When you're talking about systemic and cumulative, it makes me think so much about there are so many programs that are coming out. It's, you know, money, money, money, you know, I always go there. And what's really frustrating to me is I don't believe that a program is what we need when it comes to this. I think investing in teacher education is what is critical because programs are not always designed and created by the people that know the research best or by educators that are working with children. Most teachers don't want to be curriculum writers. So I want to just put that out there. But as we're thinking of that cumulative work, it's so important that educators have that scope and sequence in mind. And so they truly understand what needs to be in place um, I'm not even going to say by grade level, but really developmentally for children as they move through the stages of phonological awareness. Wouldn't you say? Yes.
[00:16:04] Wendy: Yes, um, the benefit of Some programs in for phonemic awareness, phonological awareness and decoding or phonic decoding as Dr. David Kilpatrick references it is that those some of those programs are based on the Orton-Gillingham understanding of the structure of the English language. So, while yes, I completely agree with you a program alone is not necessarily going to bring all students to that goal of being able to read fluently by the end of 2nd, or it may be the end of 3rd grade let's say. Um, however, in the hands of someone, a teacher who has the knowledge from teacher prep programs, masters programs, in my case, doctoral program of what it is, what our brains do as we learn to read, that gives the provider, the instructor, the opportunity to make individualized decisions about students within the broader program.
[00:17:25] Wendy: So, you may have a class of 20 kids where 15 of them are flying through the lessons. Another five are experiencing difficulty, which research shows it's about one quarter of a class is going to have some difficulty acquiring the ability to decode. So, then you can make those decisions about your 15 students as well as your 5 students, because you have the program as guide, but you also have your knowledge and you have your knowledge of your students.
[00:18:03] Olivia: I guess my fear, it's, it's not even, I think for years there was a desperate need to have, um, uh, uh, an approach to teaching phonological awareness that was consistent across the United States or even within a school district, even within a school. It's pretty scary. Um, and so that's where that explicit direct instruction has to take place. My fear is that programs are being mandated by states. And when I say programs like the boxed programs all-in-one literacy, um, not just when it comes to teaching phonological awareness or phonics. I think that was a desperate need. But I fear that the idea of how we are teaching reading over all or writing over all is being mandated.
[00:18:53] Olivia: And that gets really scary to me because I know we believe in our core, that autonomy and teacher choice and voice is also really important. Um, so I know we're going to continue talking about that and having those conversations. It's just, I, worry a lot about the idea of these boxed programs that are coming out, uh, with the miracle cure, that this will fix everything. And I love that you just spoke to, it's really based on your students’ needs and then individualizing instruction for what your children need. And that goes to that third principle of structured literacy, responsive and authentic. Right?
[00:19:35] Wendy: Yes. Yeah. I think that those the three big pillars of the structured literacy approach as defined in this Brief will help districts or buildings grade levels, determine which program or programs would be best for their students. It's there sort of a set of criteria um, to, to examine a program and to make well-informed decisions about where, where to go.
[00:20:07] Olivia: I think that's well said. Um, let's jump to key idea four before we wrap up.
[00:20:12] Wendy: You said earlier, um, the idea of access and it really is about um, the key idea for is the emphasis and reflection on the importance of fostering a culturally responsive teaching environment. And this approach is all about knowing students, knowing them as individuals, knowing them as learners and making appropriate decisions so that all students will reach the goal of being literate, fluent, and being able to participate fully in the lives that they choose.
[00:20:57] Olivia: I think that a lot of this Science of Reading movement, I'll call it, has focused on the needs around children with dyslexia. And I also want to just bring to light um, and key idea five; “The Science of Reading suggests key instructional approaches to build literacy skills, many of which also cultivate learners’, social, emotional skills.” When you have access to the world around you, you are more engaged. You want to participate in conversations, right?
[00:21:31] Olivia: Um, we know all so many children have wanted to read the Harry Potter series. Probably way before they were what we would deem ready to, but it's peer capital, right? Their friends are talking about it. The movies are there. So they will work really hard to have access to that print in order to be part of a conversation.
[00:21:52] Olivia: I also think about our bilingual children, they're acquiring English as a new language, but they also need this instruction. This is explicit instruction to understand how English works.
[00:22:07] Wendy: Yeah. And once we, when we know this, um, and we're, we know how those 44 phonemes in the English language are represented in our language by the alphabet, we're better able to help students who are acquiring English when, when we're able to help them understand where our phonemes are similar to theirs. And remember, this is all about sound, the sounds in our language are similar to, or different from the sounds in the first language. So that has been eye-opening, I think, for a lot of folks, especially those who are working with English Learners.
[00:22:51] Olivia: Yeah, I think that there's, there's just so many implications, so we wanted to keep these conversations brief. I'm actually really excited. Um, I think this was enough of a good start. We will link the, actually, I think it'd be cool if we link all of the Briefs and the show notes. So listeners, if you are excited to follow along with us, through the, I think we decided it would probably go through the end of May, beginning of June-ish, these conversations.
[00:23:17] Olivia: Um, you'll have access to all the Briefs’ links, and read them even ahead of time so you can be part of the conversation. Um, I'm excited for our next talking about Brief 2. It speaks to, uh, debunking common myths. So we're going to do some work with that.
[00:23:35] Wendy: We’ll be revisiting this conversation.
[00:23:36] Olivia: We will. Yeah. We will. We will. And that's what I'm thrilled because you, um, we talked earlier about connecting “the Big Six” now that oral language has been added with components that I still feel are extraordinarily valuable to, um, exposing children to reading in general and practicing writing as well. Wendy, thank you as always for this conversation.
[00:24:02] Wendy: It's been fun.
[00:24:04] Olivia: Yeah. It has. Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.



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