[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. This is our second episode where we are unpacking the New York State Education Department's Literacy Briefs.
[00:00:25] Olivia: They are written by Dr. Nonie K. Lesaux and Katie Carr, M.Ed. This Brief focuses on Debunking Common Myths around the term, the Science of Reading. And Wendy, I know we were just chatting, um, that it is a term. It is just that. And the Science of Reading has been defined at this point…um, it's a movement, I would actually say.
[00:00:51] Olivia: But it's been defined by different folks in different ways. And that gets really hard. That gets dicey because it ends up pitting people against each other and making conversation really hard if you have different definitions, right? So, um, I shared with you that I had the privilege last night to attend a webinar with Professor Maren Auckerman, and it was provided by the Ithaca College Education Department.
[00:01:18] Olivia: And Maren did such a beautiful job breaking down the different, um, camps, I would say that align with the term Science of Reading. And one of them is around the Science of Reading as, uh, phonics is a panacea. There's one. And another is Structured Literacy, which we spoke to last week.
[00:01:44] Olivia: And the third really captivated my heart and felt like much more the work that we're doing as instructional coaches in school buildings and, um, what Maren defined that as is Comprehensive Research-Informed Literacy Instruction. She then went on to directly connect that term with the Briefs that were, are written by Dr. Nonie Lesaux and Katie Carr.
[00:02:17] Olivia: Um, and she referred to the quote in the first Brief, um, around, “The Science of Reading is not a single approach or entity. The term refers to a large, diverse body of evidence that should be used to inform curriculum and pedagogy.”
[00:02:28] Olivia: And then, she went on again to define Comprehensive Literacy Instruction, so I want to start with that definition for us just to circle back to and think about, and we'll jump into the four Myths after that.
[00:02:45] Olivia: Um, “Comprehensive Research-Informed Literacy Instruction or A.K.A. Comprehensive Literacy is defined as teaching that nurtures students’ literacy abilities and dispositions in ways guided by the broad, diverse range of high-quality Literacy research.”
[00:03:00] Olivia: So let's jump in. There are lots of Myths out there. Um, the Science of Reading; that term has taken hold of the, the world. I would say at this point, um, it's not new, but it feels new to some. So we had said the Myth One, in Brief two of seven, “the Science of Reading refers to one instructional approach. For example, it's a tangible program or curriculum.” So let's talk about that. We know that's not the case. What are your thoughts about that?
[00:03:37] Wendy: Um, yeah, I agree. Obviously, we've, as you said, we've talked quite a bit about this. I do know from my own experience as a Reading Specialist and as a coach in districts where I have spent time with people using instruction based in the Science of Reading that there are certainly, um, uh, I'm going to use the word programs out there that do provide the foundational, um, support for instruction, but also, as I said, in my experience, because you're working with human beings, it's not feasible always, depending on the progress the students are making, to just chug through a program day after day after day.
[00:04:31] Wendy: So certainly, um, the guidance is, is important, especially for those teachers who are new to this sort of instruction and who don't have a super-firm grounding in, um, phonics or decoding, um, instruction and the way we, we learn to read. So I do think that they have their place, um, but they're certainly not the the, the only way of providing instruction for students and in the development of reading.
[00:05:08] Olivia: Well, and we also - the Brief 1 was a definition of what is the Science of Reading. And we alluded to the National Reading Panel report out of 2000. I really think there needs to be another National Reading Panel report soon, because the information it's outdated at a certain point, we need new studies um, maybe they aren't as rushed as that report was and more comprehensive. With that said, that report focused on what were deemed the “big five.” And we know that the New York State Briefs have added oral language. So now the, the Briefs speak to “big six,” right?
[00:05:47] Olivia: But, I think there's something much more to be said around that term, Comprehensive Literacy, because it does speak to developmental appropriateness when we're making choices as teachers in the classroom. Um, and it really, it puts the term explicit in quotes. You know, there's a lot of research coming out that says, do all children need explicit instruction?
[00:06:12] Olivia: Absolutely, absolutely. Has that been missing for a long time? Yes. And that too much explicit instruction can also be detrimental because it comes at a cost. So that's something I'm thinking about a lot. And that's a segue into Myth Two. Myth Two speaks to “The Science of Reading signals that reading instruction should focus on teaching skills in isolation.”
[00:06:43] Olivia: And I know at our, the core of our belief system, we both know that anything that is taught explicitly has to be practiced and transferred into other content areas, right, into children reading voluminously. So, um, I, I worry a lot with that idea of Structured Literacy or, um the idea of explicit that it may give the misconception that children are not practicing, um, this work or transferring it into a deep love of reading independently, too. I don't know what your thoughts are about that.
[00:07:26] Wendy: No, absolutely. And in wherever I've worked, um, the goal has always been, um, especially in intervention classrooms, but also in the general ed classroom that we are providing that explicit direct instruction with the goal of then having students turn around and certainly not at the beginning. It's, it's not going to be easy for them to transfer in the early years; K, 1st, part of 1st grade. But as they gain, um, understanding of the different, uh, patterns in the English language, yes, we fully expect and, and encourage and cultivate their ability to transfer that knowledge into their reading, but also into their spelling, into their encoding. So that we have, so they're developing. as readers and as writers at the same time, which goes back to that comprehensive education that you spoke of just a few minutes ago.
[00:08:32] Olivia: And I'm excited because we'll go in-depth with that, with our next conversation, that focus, that's the focus of Brief 3, um, that reading, writing connection. And so…
[00:08:42] Wendy: And really it carries through the next four Briefs, because we'll talk about PreK. Elementary and then the secondary years.
[00:08:48] Olivia: Indeed, indeed. Um, and I think that that idea of cultural context also comes into play of, you know, that idea of building and capitalizing upon a child's background knowledge. And I worry so much around this, especially that category of phonics as a panacea when it comes to PreK specifically. I know we're going to speak about that with Brief 4, but I want to linger a moment because Myth Three, it states very clearly, “The Science of Reading demonstrates that effective early literacy instruction is limited to promoting the acquisition of code-based skills, specifically phonics and decoding.”
[00:09:33] Olivia: Here's my fear. It's a Myth; it's a reality, though, for some districts right now, and I just said the over-emphasis of phonemic awareness and phonics at certain points, it comes at a cost. And my favorite piece about this Brief in particular, I adore the Truth Tips with Myth Three and Myth Four. And so I, I want to read an excerpt from that Truth Tip because that's what dispels the Myth beautifully. Um, “Without the ability to access print, students cannot make meaning from a text. While a student is building foundational word reading skills, instruction should also build oral language and reading comprehension, background knowledge, and vocabulary.”
[00:10:28] Olivia: Well, Wendy, the only way that's going to happen is if children in PreK and kindergarten have a lot of time to play, to interact, to talk to each other, if they're read aloud beautiful stories that steep them in background knowledge; that does not come from a worksheet. That does not come from an explicit phonemic awareness lesson or, uh, phonics-based lesson. It doesn't. So that, to me, is a huge concern. And I'm glad that that Myth speaks to that because I know that is happening in some places; and globally, not, not in the States necessarily just, but all over the world. So…
[00:11:13] Wendy: It's really important, too, to think about that, really, what we spoke about with Myth Two, that the instruction that may be happening in isolation, because it's so focused, can then be infused throughout the day. Whether students are playing, whether they're listening, whether they're reciting something, um, it can, it can be woven in. And I think that again, that helps or what's what facilitates that is when teachers do have the understanding and, um, they're working with each other.
[00:11:52] Wendy: They're having conversations with each other about, um what we call the Science of Reading and how we can best infuse it in in everything that we do; not that we stop what we're doing, but that we find ways to weave it in what's already occurring in the classroom.
[00:12:11] Olivia: Well and a huge passion of practice for me is that children in those early years have lots and lots of time throughout the day to engage in unstructured play. So when I say unstructured play, it's that choices are offered and the children gravitate; they move and flow through different areas in the classroom outside/inside. And it's really the teacher's role to be a facilitator in those moments. So as a teacher, I am very aware of whatever we're studying in explicit, um, phonemic awareness work with children, and play is a gorgeous opportunity to talk about, you know, sounds we're hearing in the environment. I then will press pause and say, I would cry if interactive read alouds became a focus of a sound and emphasizing that versus the bigger beauty and central messages or ideas that we want children to leave the literature with. So it's about balance, I would say.
[00:13:24] Wendy: I agree, and I think also teachers have golden opportunities, whether students are in the classroom or outside to wander and to eavesdrop on their conversations so that you are hearing the ways that they're using language. Whether it's whether you're thinking about vocabulary, oral language, development, comprehension, conversational turn, turn, taking. Um, maybe they're talking about words, maybe they're talking about a pattern that they just learned and, and they're teaching it to, to their, the things that they're playing with.
[00:14:04] Wendy: Who knows? Um, I, this is kind of an aside, but my two-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter read me Brown Bear, Brown Bear… today. So, um, you know, that was a delight. And, and I didn't stop her and, and pick out any, um, patterns that she was using, whether it be the storyline or the words, but, um, that's immersion in great literacy. So, um, you know, there are so many opportunities to listen and to just either mentally or actually, actually physically record how kids are using language that we can then turn around and use in our instruction. But also we know that kids are learning and we know what they're learning.
[00:14:53] Olivia: Well, and, and so that's such a beautiful example because there are research studies that delineate between children reading to animals and dogs and children reading to grownups and how often the experience of reading to a dog is much more joyful sometimes for a child than speaking to an adult because adults. Have a tendency to overanalyze, to over-insert themselves in. And I adore that you did not insert yourself when Brown Bear, Brown Bear… was being read. You, you lived in the joy of the moment. You were fully aware of the skills that were being used and you may capitalize upon them in a different segue. Did you notice the rhyme; but still it was about the joy in the moment and dogs are a lot less pressure than grownups sometimes. There's, there's just that joy of lingering and reading. And that's what this is ultimately about. We want every child to have access to the world of being literate. Um, and that's what makes me really excited about these conversations we're having. Um, I would also say that Myth Four, it resonates. Um, “The Science of Reading and culturally responsive sustaining teaching are distinct and separate approaches that inform instruction.” We know that's baloney! Um, and that, that Truth Tip, um, what struck you in that Truth Tip that popped out to you?
[00:16:28] Wendy: Um, well, the fact that this is, um, kind of a no-brainer, that it informs, as it says, “…it informs our efforts to support students with identified disabilities and English Language Learners.” That it's not just certain groups of students. Everybody, everybody has access when we use these sorts of practices and we teach in this way. Um, I think the other thing is that it's in between the two, um, hyphens “..to cultivate literacy for all.” That jumps out at me. Um, primarily
[00:17:10] Olivia: Yeah. I highlighted that as well. And then jumping back to Brief 1, it speaks to this as well. It's the idea of “…the NYSED and culturally responsive, sustaining education framework it's to help education stakeholders, create student-centered learning environments, ones that are conducive to effective and equitable instruction.”
[00:17:30] Olivia: Um, and you know, to wrap the conversation and circle back to that idea of Comprehensive Literacy, it's very exciting to me. I think we're eventually going to have to move away from the term, the Science of Reading, because there's, it's so loaded at this point with different camps and it's, it's, it doesn't always have a positive, positive connotation.
[00:17:53] Olivia: Um, but that idea of comprehensive it also brings in the self-efficacy, the self-esteem, the belief that students have that they are able to read. And that I think is critical. We know it's critical to motivation, to engagement. And that's a lot of the work we do. You know, students need time to practice this. So, um..
[00:18:16] Wendy: And I think the Science of Reading as a body of research is evolving. You mentioned before the National Reading Panel that those big five have evolved to now be the big six. Oral language is a huge part. of reading comprehension and being able to read the world. And then if you think about the Simple View of Reading, which talked about the word decoding and language comprehension being the, the product of those two as reading comprehension. And then you move forward 40 years to, um, Duke and Cartwright's Active View of Reading, which, it fully incorporates things like executive functioning, executive function, a student's ability to monitor and to self-regulate and all of those things that we think of sometimes outside of literacy, but they're critical to literacy. And I think it goes right back to that comprehensive educational thinking.
[00:19:20] Olivia: I agree. I'm so excited, um, to get this conversation out into the world; dispel some of these Myths thanks to Dr. Nonie Lesaux and Katie Carr, um, and their incredible work with these Literacy Briefs that it's so exciting because a lot of states across the nation are looking to New York at this point because of these Briefs, um, being, I'm not going to use the term open-ended, but I will. They're not prescriptive and that's what I appreciate. Um, as of now, New York state has not banned certain curricula options from being, um, used. And I think that, you know, teacher autonomy is critical when it comes to committing to what's best for kids. So choice is voice. And, um, yeah, I think it's exciting work.
[00:20:09] Wendy: They're a guide, right? They're not a prescription. They're a guide.
[00:20:12] Olivia: Indeed. Indeed. All right, well, I look forward to Brief 3 will be our next conversation, um, around reading and writing connections and that work. And, um, thanks for taking the time to chat. Wendy.
[00:20:27] Wendy: See you soon.
[00:20:28] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.