[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am thrilled to be here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. We are having conversation around Brief 3 of 7.
[00:00:25] Olivia: Um, they are the Literacy Briefs that were written by Dr. Nonie K. Lesaux and Katie Carr, M.Ed. And, um, we are going to be speaking to the 3rd Brief, which is titled: Science of Reading: The Role of Writing. Um, and Wendy, I know we talk often that reading and writing and putting my hands together and connecting them, they are totally interconnected in every way. Um, and we can use the word reciprocal as well, but, um, you and I really appreciated this Brief, um, because of the work we do around literacy PreK through 12th grade. So. I'm just excited to unpack and have conversation with you about it.
[00:01:12] Wendy: Yes, absolutely. Um, we seem to live and breathe this, don't we? So, um, we, as we were talking, we talked about the, the title of this, the Science of Reading: The Role of Writing; and, um, you said something about how the Science of Reading, um, builds into the role of writing and and we, we both talked about the need to think about the Science of Reading in the bigger picture.
[00:01:44] Wendy: So we are really, and I think this speaks so eloquently about the way we understand that term, the Science of Reading, that this is not about phonics instruction. It's not about word decoding. It's about the way we understand the process of reading, comprehending, building literacy, all of those things in the, um, in the Briefs, whether you're looking at Brief 1, anywhere up through 7, that it's about the, the, um, skills and competencies that we use as literate persons. And so that writing, which you and I think of as an extension of our thinking, um, is a vital part of building literacy and of being a literate person.
[00:02:42] Olivia: Yeah, you just reminded me too. We had a big conversation uh last time, last episode around the term Comprehensive Literacy Instruction and I think that's really important to consider as well. You know, what structures and how are we having students take writing on across the day in different ways to be able to communicate their thinking about the reading they're doing. So just interesting.
[00:03:12] Wendy: Yes, very. Um, those of you who can see the Briefs, um, or have access to the Briefs, there are several, uh, really key graphics in this Brief. And one of them is a lovely figure-eight infinity symbol of reading and writing. And this graphic, um, weaves its way back and forth from building language and knowledge to the way that reading fuels ideas that lead to deepening understanding of text. And this is where we move into the writing side of the, uh, figure-eight. And then as we write, we're also building language, and we're building our knowledge, and we move back into, um, toward the reading side of things with developing comprehension. But we develop comprehension as writers just as we do of readers of text.
[00:04:13] Wendy: And so, um, that, that figure-eight is, is a constant, um, dialogue, I guess, between fueling ideas, models of, of reading and writing structures, developing purpose, developing language and knowledge, deepening understanding of text, and, um, developing those comprehension processes. And there's a lovely quote about that reading and writing connection, which I'm going, which I'll read right now. And it says that, “Reading fuels the writer with ideas. language and ways to structure and illuminate the written piece's purpose. And writing promotes a deeper understanding of any text, further building language, home language, (and English for ELLs), knowledge, and communication skills.”
[00:05:13] Olivia: And that's huge because it's that idea of; I always remember, even when I was teaching kindergarten, first, second grade, we would always talk about with the children that we read with writer's eyes, and we write with reader's eyes. And I think of all of the times, you know, we would read aloud beautiful literature and then revisit that literature to understand author's craft, author's perspective, you know, central ideas. And then shift and say, how would we tackle this for our readers? And it also reminds me a lot of Ellin Oliver Keene's work around the Literacy Studio, that that reading-writing connection are just inseparable. Um, and that she actually has narrowed down into teaching one lesson that spans reading and writing, which is fascinating.
[00:06:13] Olivia: And there's another graphic. You are brilliant at depicting and explaining graphics when someone can't see them. We'll definitely tuck a link to this Brief in the show notes, so everyone has access. But I love the way you explained the graphic at the top of page two, um, to me, and I think it would be helpful to, to make that visual, um, accessible for everyone.
[00:06:38] Wendy: Sure. And this is the title with an exclamation point here is: More Reciprocity! So this graphic is going sort of beyond what we think of typically as reading and writing, and it's discussing how cognitive skills, such as executive function, attention, working memory, and linguistic skills, for example, any sort of vocabulary, but also the academic vocabulary, the use of academic language, and our awareness of syntax in, in our language.
[00:07:16] Wendy: All of those things, things together and in, um, isolation, support and build both reading skills and competencies and writing skills and competencies. And that's, I think that's really important to pay attention to really the background knowledge that we have, our, um, innate, um, I guess, uh, tendencies, um, and, and our, just our awareness of the, the English language as a whole, those different things support that reading and writing. And I think as, as educators, it's important that we are aware of how those disparate, seemingly disparate skills really inform, um, literacy.
[00:08:11] Olivia: Yeah, I would agree. And the next section, it speaks to writing in the content areas. And you and I have studied a lot of research around, you know, how many minutes in a day should I say, should in quotes; should children be reading, writing, problem solving, and the research is actually really clear. Guthrie's research speaks to children need to read 67 minutes a day. It is not 67 minutes back-to-back. It can be throughout a day. Researchers around writing speak to 60 minutes a day.
[00:08:46] Olivia: Again, across the day, throughout the day. Problem-solving mathematically at least 60 minutes a day. So the numbers are there. And it makes me think of all of the different ways we ask children to write, uh, to communicate messages. But my fear, I always throw my fears out there, Wendy, um, is that a lot of the programs that are being offered do a lot of work around writing to a prompt. Um, and not enough work around writing voluminously across genres. And so within this excerpt, Writing in the Content Areas, it speaks to that students need to practice writing for different audiences. I would throw in authentic audiences beyond the teacher, beyond their class, in different genres, using specific conventions for specific content areas.
[00:09:44] Olivia: What this makes me think about is years ago when we were unpacking standards, whether it be Common Core or Next Gen(eration) New York State standards’-; we were thinking of the three writing standards. Standard 1-2-3. Uh, the first standard is around opinion or persuasive slash argumentative writing. The second standard is around informational writing, and the third is around narrative.
[00:10:09] Olivia: And I remember with my hand making these bigger umbrellas, that each of those standards offered an umbrella, but then underneath that umbrella, there were a myriad of genres that fall under that opinion-based or argumentative writing. So many smaller genres under the informational and under the narrative umbrella. We would be doing a great disservice to our children if all we have them do is that prompt-based writing about what they're reading response. And then I press pause. Because I think of the work that we've done quite a bit at, I would say, third grade and beyond around annotating, and I think there's, so much value with teaching children how to analyze what they're annotating as they're reading in order to think about their own thinking, if that makes sense. Being metacognitive and noticing, wow, I ask a lot of questions as I'm reading. What does that tell me? Or I'm doing a lot of inferring and I'm doing a lot of synthesis, some analysis. So I would say annotating as you read, that is a critical skill, but annotating is not highlighting or underlining.
[00:11:37] Olivia: Annotating is actually like writing what is happening in my brain, and then you're able to track that. So there's so many purposes when it comes to writing, but I lived in a world for 20 plus years teaching writing within a workshop and workshop to me is not a person. Workshop to me is that 1/3 - 2/3 balance of time and minutes that students have 2/3 of a chunk of time to read, to write, to talk and practice the craft of being a writer and getting their message out there in the world. And that is what this Writing in the Content Areas speaks to me about. It's so far beyond just that written response that a lot of the programs that are being pushed right now are having kids do. And I worry so much that the creative writing and um, the idea of writing across different genres is going to fade. And so hopefully not. And with these Briefs, definitely, hopefully not. So, interesting though.
[00:12:46] Wendy: Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah. Um, and then, of course, the, um, piece that we're going to talk about tonight or today, and then move into the next couple of weeks is about the reading, again, about the reading-writing connections. And again, there's a powerful quote that says, “Reading and writing both demand 1) active construction of meaning; 2) interactions with text; 3) development and activation of conceptual and background knowledge or schema; and 4) the development of the big ‘6’ skills and competencies as they were described in Brief 1.”
[00:13:36] Wendy: And this also has a lovely graphic that talks about the high-impact practices, um, of readers and writers. And Livi, I'll let you take it from there.
[00:13:50] Olivia: Well, and, and so I'm so excited because we are going to be talking about Briefs 4-5-6, and how the high-impact practices are highlighted there. I also want to just say that before we wrap the conversation, one of my favorite human beings has written so beautifully about reading-writing connections. And one of her first books that I held tightly and I’ve read it probably ten times at this point. It has a very long title. Leah Mermelstein, I adore you. This title is: Reading/Writing Connections in the K-2 Classroom: Find the Clarity and Then Blur the Lines. And I remember when it first came out, just thinking, this is so amazing. And she has many, many examples of that reciprocity and with process, with genres and it's, it's an oldie, but goodie book. And so I just want to put that back on folks’ radar, because I think that many people have written beautiful professional books about this reciprocity.
[00:15:00] Olivia: Lester Laminack and Reba Wadsworth have written about that connection as well in their book, Writers ARE (all in caps ARE) Readers: Flipping Reading Instruction into Writing Opportunities. So I think it's important to note that the idea of reading and writing connectedness is not new, and the importance that this Brief is bringing to the forefront that we can't forget that.
[00:15:26] Olivia: When we're talking about the Science of Reading, it's not just reading, it's that Comprehensive Literacy piece of, you know, as a teacher, if I want my students to write in a variety of genres, and ensure that books that I'm steeping them in are not only diverse, but they are also rich in highlighting the joy and everyday-life experiences of the children in my classroom and not in my classroom, right? There's a difference between diversity and equity when it comes to how our classrooms represent different cultures.
[00:16:04] Wendy: And I think the other thing, too, um, that keeps rolling around in my head as I'm thinking about the reading and writing connection, is that we think as readers we think about what we're reading and writing is a continuation of that thinking. And it's just, it's thinking on paper or thinking on the computer. So, um, again, that, that reciprocity is there, um, in terms of, in that way, in terms of the thinking.
[00:16:35] Olivia: Yeah. And, and I would say the other piece you and I have talked extensively around different types of engagement, and a lot of the conversations we've been having in triad labs, learning labs, coaching cycles, it comes back to, you know, behavioral and emotional engagement are critical and yet, you don't really know; there's not evidence of learning unless you have cognitive engagement in place. And that's what, as Sam Bennett would say what children are saying and what is coming out of their pencils. It's what they're writing. And so that the written form lets us know that is evidence of learning.
[00:17:21] Olivia: It lets us know what children are thinking and understanding and taking from all of the education they're receiving. So, um, it's just, I think it's incredible. And the idea of reading-writing connections needs to be on all of our minds of everything that we're having students read. How can this transfer to their writerly lives?
[00:17:43] Olivia: Anyway, I'm excited because we are going to be unpacking Briefs 4,5, and 6 next, and they talk about those high impact practices at PreK, at elementary as well as secondary and offer all kinds of examples and sample writing tasks and products. Um, and so, you know, these Briefs are really, again, they're very thorough with offering all different ways that you can tackle this work. And I love what you had said a couple of conversations ago; they're, they're not a script, they help guide and offer choice and voice, yet a lot of ways that we can take this work and make it best for kids and I think that's what this is all about. So that's that. Thanks for taking the time to chat.
[00:18:44] Wendy: Yeah. You bet!
[00:18:45] Olivia: Take care. Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.