[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I'm so happy to be here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. We are going to be unpacking the Literacy Brief number 5, um, Science of Reading in the Elementary Years.
[00:00:24] Olivia: And again, these Briefs are beautifully designed and crafted by Dr. Nonie K. Lesaux and Katie Carr, M.Ed. Our last conversation focused on Literacy Brief 4, which unpacked Science of Reading in the PreK years. And I know, Wendy, you and I have really parsed these out, um, specifically Brief 4, 5, and 6, to look across the Briefs and say, you know, what is similar, what is different?
[00:00:53] Olivia: Because anyone that's tuning in, anyone that's listening, their time is invaluable. And so our focus as we move through the elementary years and secondary years is really going to be on what is different. How do the practices and beliefs shift and change and build upon each other? So that's where I'm excited to jump into this conversation. And we started with a quote on page one of the Brief, um, listeners, of course, we will tuck links to the Briefs and to the show notes. Um, but the idea that from PreK there is a shift that, uh, the bedrock of the elementary years, and I'm reading directly from the Brief: “The bedrock of this phase is explicit, cumulative knowledge-building instruction that intensifies each year.”
[00:01:47] Olivia: And you're going to circle back to that idea as well, but there's one more section that I think is important for us to highlight. “In this phase of K-5 education, students engage in a dual process, they develop automatic and accurate word reading skills and in (‘crack the code’) and develop skills, knowledge and strategies to make meaning from text and (‘read to learn’).
[00:02:17] Olivia: So there's that shift and pivot that is different from PreK of the world of language and exposure to print around the room. All right, so let's dive in, my friend. And, um, we were reflecting, I think, around those high-impact practices in action. Um, how much exposure, how often, and, um, I think it'd be helpful for listeners to hear a snippet of the conversation we had before we jumped on to record. So what do you thinking my friend?
[00:02:49] Wendy: Well, one of the things that a big difference with this graphic, and certainly you can check it out for yourselves, is that the PreK years were set up in quadrants or quarters throughout the year, and the elementary and the secondary graphics are set up in trimesters. So we don't operate here in in trimesters necessarily, but certainly some schools do. So, rather than being a quarter, a half, or or that those types of percentages, what we're looking at is for example, in the, uh, elementary years, the collaborative and culminating projects, performances, and celebrations would take about; be given about two-thirds of the, of a, um, period of time. So remember, we could be talking about a unit's worth, it could be a year's worth, uh, it could be a trimester's worth, a day's worth of, um, your time.
[00:03:55] Wendy: And that's a lot. So there's a lot of time given to students working on projects, to celebrating, um, in academic ways, the work that's been done. Um, and I think folks who are moving more toward project-based learning and assessment, this opens the door for them. And I know that in this region, we've been having those conversations so that's pretty exciting. Just as with the PreK years, that, that those text-based discussions are so important, and they're, they encompass almost the full range of your time. Um, I'm going to say it that way, rather than trying to parse out our given units of time. The, the, uh, in the elementary years, we're including a lot of writing opportunities because of course, students are becoming more fluent with the alphabetic principle, they're gaining phonics knowledge, and then they're able to apply it in writing. As with the primary, um, the PreK years, we're still always, always, always thinking about that variety of texts, multiple genres, fiction and nonfiction, diverse and complex texts. So we're still in the land of the read aloud and the supported vocabulary development through listening, but students are also moving toward being much more in command of their own access of print.
[00:05:31] Wendy: So that's a lovely thing. The um, the focus remains about two-thirds of the time on phonological awareness, phonics, spelling and word work, because students are still building those skills; well up, at least through the end of second grade and word work always needs to continue. We've had this discussion before. We're still focused on how the English language works. And then the last – that fostering of understanding of print concepts, features and functions. That's still there. A smaller chunk of time that really is focused on how text works and how authors use the structures that are available to them to convey meaning. So it's still focused in that meaning-making. But also students are becoming authors, and so they need to know how to use the tools that are available to them. So it's, I love this graphic personally.
[00:06:33] Olivia: I do too. I do too. And what I did for myself, um, I write all over these and highlight, mark them up. So I have a PreK column next to the graphic and an elementary column, um, and trying to just make sense of the math as you've helped me do and think through this. So as you've already said, every single area increases, except engagement with a variety of high-interest, diverse, complex texts was the same. It was 100 percent for both PreK and elementary. The only aspect or high-impact practice that decreased, as you just named, was the fostering understanding of print conventions, features, and functions.
[00:07:11] Olivia: And that in PreK was about half, 50 percent we could say, where now this is, I would say even less than a quarter. So, um, I think these graphics, I just, I appreciate because people take in information in a variety of ways. And I love that there's that bigger heading that gives you; this is what I'm going to be studying or learning about a nice, little excerpt, um, that describes the graphic and then a beautiful visual to break it down. Um, Wendy, I know, oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.
[00:07:44] Wendy: I think also that, um, Lesaux and Carr did this intentionally because one of the goals from the state level is that districts and buildings are going to engage in conversation. So, having this graphic really forces what you and I are just doing, forces us to go back and say, okay, what does this mean when we look at this? How are we going to, to deal with each of these areas, and what is our focus going to be and, and what will it look like at the different grade levels? Cause we have to think vertically as well when we look at these graphics.
[00:08:22] Olivia: Yes. I love what you just said. And so I want to pause there because there are folks, there are leaders in this work. Some people just want us to say, or want the Briefs to say, tell me what to do. And that is not at all our jam. You and I are humans that love to talk and converse and have discourse. And we never anticipate agreeing with each other. But I think like what I love about you is you make me smarter because either know what my convictions are and what is so important to me, or you help me shift and push my thinking, which is critical in this work. And I am so grateful; a dear friend and colleague, Renee Dinnerstein, jumped on, um, our YouTube conversation from an episode we had released previously with the PreK Brief. And she said, Livi, what do you mean by purposeful play?
[00:09:27] Olivia: And she was honing in on the word purposeful, and we went back and forth in YouTube comment land, um, around, you know, that term purposeful can be dangerous. And she was saying that she has great concern because some educators or leaders are asking children to make a plan for their play before they jump into that time. And so you and I were just going back and forth, like what, where do we go? Because you even looked forward into secondary world around purposeful play for active engagement and consolidation. So that idea of play in my world, in PreK, even through second grade, it really needs to be driven by the students. The adults will offer options, they'll offer choices, but the students are driving that time and the adult is there as a facilitator. You, though, brought up the idea of purposeful or structured, especially when it gets to secondary. So I'd love for you to share what you had said to me because I think it's helpful.
[00:10:39] Wendy: Sure. Uh, first off, we did talk about the fact that it's so important that groups of educators at whatever grade level, um, you know, building whatever your structure is or your unit of conversation, um, engagement. Um, it's so important that we define these terms because what purposeful is to you may not be the same as it is to me.
[00:11:05] Wendy: And then is structured play the same as purposeful play, you know, so when we have a shared definition, then at least we know where we stand. So when people do question, rightly so, what, what we're doing, we know how to define things, right? And we, we know for parents, we, we can explain how students are, um, engaging with learning when we define those things. So what I was thinking, um, because I am looking through PreK through 12 at these Briefs, about play. And when we talk about play, what does it look like at the middle and the high school level? And so I went back and I did some research and some study and at those levels, play looks like things…take a container of Play Doh and construct a model of an atom, construct a model of a cell, somehow create a visual model. Um, that's one example. Another example would be, um, engaging in discussion, problem-solving. There, anything that, that envelops or that, um, calls upon students’ creativity and their problem-solving and their shared discussion; that's a form of play. They're using their imaginations. Um, they're thinking outside the box. So, um, but to me, that's very purposeful. That's very structured because there, there is an end goal, but in the reaching of that goal, they're just letting their minds go. Um, which is where the play comes in.
[00:12:48] Olivia: Well, and I, and also in the Brief, it actually speaks to engagement and consolidation. So when I see that word consolidation, I also think of synthesis. And so that idea of purposeful play is synthesizing information that, um, I'm learning and then I'm showing the world my understanding of it through constructing something, as you just said, like with Play Doh and atoms. I also feel like it's more content-based where the world of play that I live in, and I think that Renee, if I'm can be so bold to speak to lives in, it's very inquiry-based. So any products that are being created, it's more out of the imagination or a project-based learning experience that the kids are experiencing. Um, but you know, at some point Renee made me think, you know, do we ditch the word purposeful?
[00:13:48] Olivia: Do we ditch the word structured? Um, and then being in conversation with you this morning, I'm I'm more in line to say it's all about that shared definition. Which I'm grateful for that lens as well. I also jumping in to the high-impact practices in action on page three. What do these look like in elementary settings? Again, this page in the Briefs is one of my favorites because I love the three columns. What does it look and feel like? What skills are fostered? And then what structures and processes are needed? Here's my concern though, Wendy, I continue to wonder what this looks and feels like for educators and for students, like this is all about the kids. So, um, I remembered that I printed out this article. I'll put a link in the show notes as well. How Much Time Should
Teachers Spend on a Foundational Reading Skill? Research Offers Clues. And there's one aspect of this, um, that Matt Burns, a professor of special education at the University of Florida, um, he speak, he spoke to this, um, he studies reading interventions, and he was not involved in the Texas A& M study that we spoke to last, with the last Brief.
[00:15:06] Olivia: But this was an interesting quote, and I feel this frustration, so I just want to name it. Um, “while many states have passed new legislation mandating that schools use evidence-based practice, these laws and accompanying state guidance don't often come with a roadmap for structuring an effective literacy block. The lack of concrete instructions can leave some teachers feeling frustrated, wanting to change their practice, but not knowing exactly how.”
[00:15:36] Olivia: That is huge. That is huge. And so this page three, it does offer glimpses of what it looks and feels like. Yet, if I were an educator, I do want to know how I'm using the minutes of my day. I do want to be purposeful and plan with that in mind. But I also love the bigger-picture lens you provided when we were chatting about this before we jumped on to record, and I think it's helpful. So if you would speak to that, and then we can circle back and just give some examples of what it looks and feels like in the elementary years, I'd appreciate it. But your bigger global view is helpful.
[00:16:20] Wendy: To me this is about, again, about those conversations that we have with colleagues, or even, I know it sounds silly, but a conversation that you have with yourself. You know what your, um, scope and sequence is. You know what your goals are for your students. This helps, or this, I guess, would provide another layer of, um, thinking and awareness of the big picture of what students need going forward, right? So students at the PreK level need that immersion. They need to experience language. They need to experience play. They need to experience working with others. They need to experience, um, the, how school works. So, that's the immersion piece. And, um, we're laying those foundational knowledge bases, the routines, the procedures.
[00:17:26] Wendy: Um, and then as we move into the elementary years, those K-5 years, we're developing our skills. We have our foundation, we're building on the foundation. Um, some of the things in that, um, the elementary years that jumped out at me and you and you named these as well is the, the, the things around critical thinking and, um, building our communication skills, higher-level thinking, being, being critical thinkers, problem solvers. And then it, the, as we move into the secondary level, it, that's really about mastery and about preparation for either higher ed or, and, or the world of work or citizenship. Um, so, again, looking at the big picture, that vertical understanding, I think helps us, whether we're PreK or teaching 12th grade, it helps us see the continuum, and then we can see where we are in that continuum.
[00:18:33] Olivia: Yes, and I would say too, I know that you and I have another project we're collaborating on and we've deemed it the What We Know Now series. So we've been releasing reels in between, um, these episodes that we're sharing of; you know, this work, it's all about planning. And the, the more long-term vision we have mapped out for ourselves as educators, um, the more thoughtful we are when it comes to the, the topic, the texts, the tasks, the targets, tending and time that we're putting into our instruction for children's benefit. Then, we have that fluidity and flexibility to make day-to-day choices based on the needs of our children. Something that I think is critical when we're looking at these culminating projects, performances and celebrations, if I know that the audience is going to be someone outside of myself, perhaps someone even outside of my, the walls of my classroom, I am much more engaged and invested to polish that work up. And I think of children in the elementary years, you know, this, expectation is that they express themselves orally and in writing.
[00:19:59] Olivia: So what does that look and feel like, um, looking at text-based discussion and writing opportunities? This goes pretty far beyond the PreK expectation; um, the words discussing, debating, and writing about what they've read. Um, comparing information and perspectives across sources and conducting research. I mean, just that alone is next level. And I think what you said is that term developing is critical. So for a school district, for a building, for a cohort to say, what does this look and feel like across kinder, first, second, how all the way to fifth, how are we building every year? The best place to start with this work. It's standards. A lot of this has been done. I just, you know, that whole idea of, you know, we need more resources. We need more programs. There are, I'm going to use the word free, free resources that have been beautifully designed by researchers, by cohorts and, and thought think tanks to do this work.
[00:21:10] Olivia: So as you're looking at, you know, what does this look and feel like go back? Don't forget the Next Gen Standards, your state standards, Common Core. A lot of this has been beautifully mapped out. Um, so I think that's important to consider. And, um, I joked with you this morning. It's not a joke. I went shopping on my bookshelf again, and I've been naming specific books, specific authors, but this felt like a rabbit hole to me. And so I just kept pulling books off of my professional shelf. And I literally have a stack right now of about fifteen books, and I think I could pull about twenty more off of my shelf. And I got overwhelmed thinking I could pull every book from my bookshelf. And that was a good struggle, but hard. So, um, just shifting and pivoting to wrap our conversation, um, to that idea of supporting developing readers with identified needs. Um, I was telling you, I am so honored and excited; I actually had an interview yesterday with a cohort of teachers, um, in Kansas City. And that episode is going to release May 13th, but this group of fourth-grade teachers, uh, they work in a microschool called Briarcliff and, um, Kansas city and their MTSS process, they have pushed really hard to revise it.
[00:22:38] Olivia: So all of their data collection is being utilized as educators. So I thought this was a fascinating piece that, um, there's a, there's an excerpt here. “Many of these design principles are reflected in today’s frameworks aimed at supporting students with identified needs, including Response to Intervention (RTI), Multi-Tiered Systems of Support (MTSS), and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).”
[00:23:13] Olivia: So I just want to highlight the work of these educators and let you know, put it on everyone's radar; tune into their episode on May 13th, their Schoolutions episode. It's phenomenal. Their - our conversation, multi-tiered systems of supports (MTSS), a lot of school districts are looking at their process, looking at their district’s framework.
[00:23:34] Olivia: And I cannot highlight how important it is to make sure that these meetings that are happening include everyone at the table, not just the principal, school psychologist, reading specialist, the teachers know each child deeply as learners. How about the caregivers? They know their child's strengths. So, when these conversations are happening about supporting developing readers with identified needs, the more people that are on team-child, team-kid, radically pro-kid as Cornelius Minor would say, the better! Because we can name the assets that that child has and bring it to light that if we're only basing decisions for children on a test or on one formative assessment or one layer of assessment, it is so shortsighted. So I just, I want to bring that up because the, this group of teachers that I spoke with yesterday, they just hit that home to my heart. So I don't know if you have anything else that you want to speak to with that.
[00:24:46] Wendy: Well, just in New York State, uh, we're also focused on MTSS. I attended a, um, conference last week in Albany, so that is on our radar as well, and, um, it's certainly, uh, time. Time to refocus our attention. The, uh, I think the Social Emotional Learning and the Culturally Responsive and Sustaining Education is, they're just built right into that work, which I think is, that's just great for students.
[00:25:22] Olivia: It is. And it's great for educators that are collaborating and working together because you have to know each other deeply, just like we want to know our children, um, Wendy, as always, thank you for taking the time to unpack this Brief and help me, um, ground what I believe to be true, what matters most. And I hope our conversations are helpful. Um, Listeners, feel free to drop questions, comments, um, wherever you listen to your podcast, whether it's YouTube, because you like to watch, um, and these are coming out on every podcast directory. So, uh, we're excited to hear your feedback and thinking. Take care.
[00:26:03] Wendy:Bye-bye.
[00:26:03] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.