Changemakers and innovators Beth Stark and Jérémie Rostan introduce their AI-powered Universal Design for Learning thought partner, LUDIA, to Schoolutions followers. Beth and Jérémie describe how and why LUDIA “was created as a new entry point and scaffold for developing a Universal Design for Learning mindset, intentionally designing to reduce learning barriers, and discovering the power of Artificial Intelligence.”
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Beth:
Connect and Learn with Jérémie:
#bethstark #jérémierostan #LUDIA #UDL #AI #universaldesignforlearning #artificialintelligence #play #thoughtpartner
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Changemakers and innovators Beth Stark and Jérémie Rostan introduce their AI-powered Universal Design for Learning thought partner, LUDIA, to Schoolutions followers. Beth and Jérémie describe how and why LUDIA “was created as a new entry point and scaffold for developing a Universal Design for Learning mindset, intentionally designing to reduce learning barriers, and discovering the power of Artificial Intelligence.”
Episode Mentions:
Connect and Learn with Beth:
Connect and Learn with Jérémie:
#bethstark #jérémierostan #LUDIA #UDL #AI #universaldesignforlearning #artificialintelligence #play #thoughtpartner
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions®, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to welcome my guests today, Beth Stark and Jérémie Rostan. Let me tell you a little bit about Beth and Jérémie. Beth Stark is a UDL expert and inclusionary practices strategist for International Schools. Jérémie Rostan is the High School Curriculum and Instruction Coordinator at the International School of Panama and the author of the e-book AI-Powered UDL Strategies. Beth and Jérémie combined their brilliance to create an AI-powered UDL (thought) partner called LUDIA.
[00:00:50] Olivia: Thank you for illuminating the worlds of Universal Design for Learning and Artificial Intelligence, not only for Schoolutions® listeners today but also for the global community at large. Welcome, Beth and Jérémie.
[00:01:04] Beth: Thank you so much for that warm introduction. It's so nice to be here, Olivia.
[00:01:07] Jérémie: Thank you for having us!
[00:01:08] Olivia: I am so honored to have you both. And before we jump in to conversation about LUDIA, I always ask guests to name an educator that has inspired them. Would you start us off, Beth?
[00:01:23] Beth: Sure. My, my answer is about the same as it would have been when I was 12 years old. So, um, and yeah, a teacher and educator that inspires me is Annie Sullivan, who was the lifelong teacher of Helen Keller. And, um, when I think about the way in which she, um, humanized Helen Keller's learning experience, it of course reminds me of Universal Design for Learning and taking a strengths-based approach to each and every learner. And really, yeah, the, the essence of what it means to take an all-means-all approach to designing authentic learning that really brings out the best in every learner.
[00:02:11] Olivia: Beautiful, beautiful. Jérémie, how about you?
[00:02:16] Jérémie: Probably a Spanish teacher from high school. For, that’s neck and neck with the philosophy teacher. Naturally to the two. And the reason is I was not a very serious student for most of my school career. I'm very lucky that I was born and raised in France. And in for all of its defaults, the system is such that all that matters is how well you do in your senior year. Nothing, nothing else matters. And I really only started working end of grade 11. So that's perfect timing. Um, and then there was in large part, uh, thanks to a Spanish teacher who, when he gave back an assignment, I had a very, very low grade on the assignment, and my peers laughed because that's such a low grade. And he said, well, you know, one day Jérémie is going to take things seriously and then you'll see. That that triggered something.
[00:03:15] Olivia: That was it. That was it. He challenged you. That's, that's wonderful. And both of you, you know, I always name an issue that I am seeing globally and you address this issue I would say in a two-pronged way. UDL, ensuring UDL principles are part of every classroom environment is challenging and it feels daunting. It feels overwhelming. And then the, the world of Artificial Intelligence seems quite scary. I'll pause and say, it seems very daunting to some and very exciting and enthralling to others. And you have both done a beautiful job of making the worlds of UDL and Artificial Intelligence easier for us as educators to access. So our conversation today is going to focus on LUDIA, a chatbot that you've collaborated to create. Beth, you are in Germany, Jérémie, you are in Panama, so it's fascinating. And you two have never met in person, correct?
[00:04:18] Beth: No.
[00:04:18] Jérémie: We haven't.
[00:04:19] Olivia: Oh! So this world that is created through, um, I would say overall connection and connectivity. It feels like we know each other yet we've never actually met in person. It's quite fascinating, isn't it? So Beth, I'm going to have you kick us off with defining UDL, also known as Universal Design for Learning for listeners. Can you give a brief introduction?
[00:04:45] Beth: Well, brief is always challenging, um, but I'll give it a try. Um, Universal Design for Learning is a set of systems, skills, and mindsets, um, that are really centered around, um, ensuring that every learner has equal access and has an opportunity to learn at high levels. And of course, that begins with a deep sense of belonging and instruction that is fine-tuned to ensure that they have opportunities to achieve. And also this concept of learner variability is centered in the instructional design process. And variability a little bit different than diversity um, is this understanding that we all are different. And our brains are, um, wired in very different ways and although, um, the physiology involved with, um, learning is the same, uh, the way in which it manifests and the way in which we express our learning is wonderful and variable and that it should always be seen as a strength in our, in our classrooms and learning spaces.
[00:06:04] Olivia: Yeah, and I know that there are three principles and you just alluded to the nuances. I shared with you before we jumped on to record that I live in upstate New York, and New York State has recently released, they're called Literacy Briefs around the Science of Reading, but really this idea of comprehensive literacy instruction for Prekindergarten through 12th grade. And it's interesting um, I was rereading the PreK brief last night and the way that Dr. Nonie Lesaux and Katie C. Carr, M.Ed. break down the three principles of UDL, it's highlighted and Brief 4, um, and those three principles they've articulated, uh, “presenting information and content in different modalities.”
[00:06:48] Beth: So, making sure that you're providing options for the recognition neural network. So the multiple means of representation is so important. I'll let you continue. Sorry about that.
[00:07:00] Olivia: No, it's okay. And the second, I love the conversation jump in, um, “ensuring multiple means of engagement and representation” is the second principle they highlight. And the third “using supportive digital learning tools and flexible class spaces to promote choice and investment.”
[00:07:19] Olivia: So it's interesting because that's a little bit of a different spin with the inclusion of digital learning tools, um, that I think is exciting. Um, and Jérémie, it's a lovely segue to think about, um, the idea of LUDIA and then Beth, I want to circle back and hear more about how you have incorporated UDL as a consultant. But let's get to LUDIA quickly because how in the world did you come up with the name LUDIA, Jérémie, in your collaboration?
[00:07:52] Jérémie: So the name, uh, came from, um, a conversation we had with, uh, with Beth. And, uh, so we were thinking of what is going to be the name of that, um, for that thing that we want to create. Um, and I, and I shared with Beth, if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong Beth. But I shared with Beth that one thing that OpenAI got wrong was the name ChatGPT, which is a horrible name. It's, it's the name of the technology, ChatGPT, right? So if, if, if you're a techie, like we understand, but it's not relatable, right? ChatGPT. So, um, I, so it should sound like it's a person, uh, like it's a thought partner. And then the idea was to combine the acronyms UDL and AI, and then play on LUDIA, which is the Latin word for to play.
[00:08:45] Olivia: Beautiful, beautiful. And LUDIA is a chatbot that helps us have access to the world of UDL. So Beth, in your work as a consultant and inclusivity practices strategist. Um, how do you unroll the work of UDL with school systems?
[00:09:08] Beth: Well, most of my work is with, um, standalone International Schools and, um, my background is, um, as a Secondary School Learning Support Coordinator at an IB International School. And so, you know, most of those schools are really focused on concept-based inquiry and, you know, creating the conditions for optimizing learner agency and ensuring that learning is as authentic and meaningful as possible. And so all of those beliefs and goals align so very well with the UDL Framework and the mindsets behind, um, being an instructional practitioner, that's, it's really living UDL in the instructional design process. So it all sounds great, but in practice, Universal Design for Learning, it can be, as you put it very daunting. And so, as a consultant, um, I, I noticed, um, that regardless of how many, you know, facilitated workshop experiences that I was creating and how many, um, you know, magical, uh, you know, teachable moments that I was presenting to the teachers and the, the leaders that I was working with, there was naturally this, this great divide, you know, and, and this wondering, you know, what happens when I leave?
[00:10:46] Beth: And, you know, what happens at the kitchen table on Sunday night when these teachers, you know, the teachers are looking over these unit planners and really trying to kind of create those lesson preps for the week ahead. And, um, you know, ensuring that all students have access and, you know, they have the UDL Framework next to them. And they're analyzing each and every barrier. Is that realistic, you know, is that, you know, is that something that that's happening on the daily? And, you know, my wonderings are nothing new. You know, Universal Design for Learning is actually celebrating its 40th anniversary this summer and one of the biggest challenges for implementing Universal Design for Learning is the complexity, you know, of the Framework and the layers.
[00:11:40] Beth: And, yeah, the amount of balance that each teacher has to take into account when it, when it comes to this idea of all-means-all. So, you know, making sure that they are, you know, honoring the content and the curriculum objectives while still putting a lot of time and effort into, you know, designing at this very, um, sophisticated level, so to speak. And, you know, we, we want, we want people to feel energized, not demoralized as instructional practitioners. And so that's where LUDIA comes into play. Um, you know, LUDIA is designed not to replace an instructional coach, but instead become that thought partner for any teacher, you know, at the kitchen table.
[00:12:33] Beth: Or, you know, any curriculum coordinator when they're looking to problem solve in the moment, and, you know, really start taking those, um, checkpoints and guidelines and putting them into action. But not, not kind of exhausting, you know, themselves cognitively in the process. And we expect that anything that LUDIA generates, um, is just the beginning, um, of the thought process. So, you know, we really encourage all teachers to, um, engage with LUDIA. And then we created this process called the 4Ts. Um, because we, we also want them to kind of dig deeper and, you know, add their own expertise and, you know, the, the experience that they're having in the live-learning in the classroom so that they can kind of tinker with the answers and then tweak them, you know, in the moment and then ultimately the 4th “T” is transfer. You know, LUDIA provides kind of a slow drip professional learning experience for anyone who's using it. And so this idea is to pause as well, not just how are my learners doing, but how am I doing as a, as a learner as well? And how can I generalize and transfer these experiences that I'm having, um, by engaging with LUDIA?
[00:14:06] Olivia: So you're walking in my mind because some of the work I am doing as, uh, instructional coach really focuses on engagement. And, uh, Samantha Bennett created these beautiful circles of engagement that focus on behavioral engagement, emotional engagement, but you really don't know what any learner is transferring into their own repertoire, unless you also think of cognitive engagement. And I heard you saying, you know, professional learning. I'm thinking of how amazing LUDIA could be as a support to Professional Learning Communities, where you have a group of colleagues sitting together trying to plan. It could be across content areas as well. But Beth, you took me through kind of a trial run of LUDIA. We played with it together before we had started recording. And it's extraordinarily intuitive and really helpful as a thought partner. So, you know, I think that idea of time is always on my mind of how, as educators, can we be more efficient? How can we have access to a thought partner if we're sitting alone? And LUDIA really does serve as that thought partner.
[00:15:20] Olivia: It's so easy to use. Um, I will include links to all of the goodness you've shared in the show notes. so much for joining us today. So I think it would be helpful if we contextualize how LUDIA applies not only to the classroom, but also to professional learning at large. Beth, can you help give us an example to contextualize LUDIA for us?
[00:15:46] Beth: Um, right now I'm working a lot with middle-level leaders, um, and school leaders in general about how to leverage LUDIA. Um, so in, in just a few quick snippets, um, I can give you an example of perhaps running a PLC or a staff meeting, you know, just, uh, you know, uploading the agenda, um, to LUDIA, and then just asking, how can we reduce barriers? You know, how can we increase engagement in this staff meeting, you know, based on the agenda? And LUDIA is going to give answers that are specific to everything that's cited there. Um, and then perhaps creating a set of, um, culturally-responsive, um, approaches that you can take into consideration when designing a face-to-face meeting, um, and based on, again, the agenda and discussion questions; you can ask LUDIA for discussion questions about any particular topic. And then you can also create flexible pathways. So if you're doing a UDL training, for example, you can ask LUDIA to create, um, you know, a variety or share a variety of different ways to go about that, um, and sentence frames to scaffold or, you know, all different types of scaffolds, um, to support professional learning. So it's not just for the classroom, but it's certainly, LUDIA can certainly help in the classroom as well.
[00:17:10] Olivia: Jérémie, can you give us an example of how it can help in the classroom setting?
[00:17:16] Jérémie: Of course. And what's important here is compared to other options, LUDIA is not just a tool, but you will have access, you're a matching school; you will have a list of like eighty different tools and they're very specific. They can summarize a text; they can generate questions based on what you are reading. They are very task-specific. LUDIA is not that. It is not a task-specific tool. It is more like a, it's like a friend who's here, like whatever you need, right? So, LUDIA can do what you ask it to do as long as it's relevant to learning, you will make it more, more accessible. So we can go from: help me make this lesson on this standard with this learning objective, more accessible to this particular group of learners. It can be uploading at the option to your paperclip icon, you can upload documents and say, here's my assessment. Are there barriers that I'm not aware of? Can you help me overcome those, those barriers? So LUDIA will do that. And, uh, just yesterday, I talked to, we had a PD day on Monday, I talked to a teacher here at school and she complimented me on LUDIA, and she said, I use it with my kids a lot. So I said, oh, that's funny, you call your students your kids. And she said, no, no, I use it with my kids. So she's using it at home with her kids.
[00:18:38] Olivia: That's wonderful. And, Beth, you know, I think you've shared in the past that this is not something that is in isolation. The United Nations, will you just articulate what you've shared with me about the United Nations?
[00:18:55] Beth: Yeah, actually, um, now for well over a decade, uh, the United Nations has, um, cited the importance of all educators worldwide, um, to increase their capacity, um, to implement the, systems, skills and beliefs of Universal Design for Learning. And there's been several, um, papers written about the challenge of making that happen because we understand the challenge, um, that many schools around the world are facing, you know, in terms of resources and certainly, um, you know, finding trainers of trainers, you know, um, you know, people who are able to, um, oversee and, and guide educators in developing their capacity in UDL implementation is the biggest challenge. And so we really would love, we’re all about the sky's the limit for sure. And we see, we see LUDIA as a tool that we want to maintain, um, as an, as accessible as possible. So we want LUDIA to be zero cost. And our goal when we started this project was to make Universal Design for Learning, universally accessible. And so that dream is for any, any teacher anywhere to have zero-cost access to a Universal Design for Learning thought partner. Um, and that will be their professional learning thought partner over the course of their careers. Um, and so it's, it's all about taking one step every day to learn more about the importance and the techniques we all need to be implementing to reduce learning barriers.
[00:20:48] Olivia: Beautifully said! Jérémie, your website is beautiful. I have taken a walk through. You include a lot of your writing, your articles around AI. So I'm fascinated to hear more about how did your expertise with Artificial Intelligence in general help in the creation of LUDIA?
[00:21:12] Jérémie: So it was sort of a two-step process, right? Um, I initially wrote the e-book, which is why then we, um, Beth and I got to, well, we came in contact and started working together. Um, and, and then the, the expertise, or I actually don't like to use the term expertise, because if you, if you know a little bit about AI, you know that you're not an expert. It doesn't matter what you're doing; you don't know anything. And if you know something, you don't know what's coming tomorrow, and a lot changes every day. So, I’m in no way an expert. I'm a learner. I'm passionate about it and I try to learn as much as I can every day about it, but more of a learner than an expert.
[00:21:59] Jérémie: Um, that being said, the way LUDIA works is it uses something that you can call a meta-prompt. So what that means is, as you know, when you use a, a generic chatbot like ChatGPT, you give instructions to a prompt. What we do on the back end is we have written a very long and complex prompt that is always added to your own prompt. So, imagine that when you, when you ask, whatever you're asking to, let's say, if you were even to just say: I'm exhausted. I have no idea how to engage this group of students who have these particular needs that are not yet met. What you would really be saying is: and…and all of our prompt. That is very detailed and quite complex. And that's what the, the little bit of knowledge that we have about how, um, those language models work a little bit about prompt engineering and about UDL itself, uh, is sort of a, it, it superpowers your own prompt, uh, with all the work that we've done ahead of time.
[00:23:04] Olivia: That's a beautiful description, and it makes it easier to understand for me, who I consider myself a layman, so far from expert, but always a learner, Jérémie, as well. Um, I'm fascinated to know, how in the world did you collaborate, being so far away, uh, from each other, you know, how did this process work? Beth, do you want to tackle that?
[00:23:27] Beth: Sure. Well, you, you actually mentioned it in your intro to the last question to Jérémie, and that is his writing. So, um, I'm, I am definitely a, a, a learner as well, and I, I love to learn from fellow international educators. So, um, so Jérémie, of course, was a person who was already publishing quite a bit on other topics as well. And so I, I noticed that he had a characteristic that, that I was looking for, cause I was looking to collaborate with somebody, um, because I knew that my goal of kind of eliciting the right kinds of responses from ChatGPT, like it wasn't working. And I didn't, I needed to collaborate with someone who, who had expertise, but also somebody who is willing to kind of go into the, the, you know, the, the unknown, you know, and someone who is willing to take risks.
[00:24:11] Beth: And I, I called Jérémie one time, a respectful contrarian. So when somebody says, oh, well, this is the, this is the best way, or this is the only way, you know, that's worth questioning, always. So that was really, um, kind of the, the cue that I had, that it was worth cold calling him, which is what I did. I just sent him a message saying, I have, I have an idea. And so we started writing and collaborating and, um, I would really encourage anyone to think deeply about the concept of collaboration and, you know, the fact that we're always encouraging our learners in our classrooms to be, you know, respectful communicators and collaborators. But, you know, in the world of education, we oftentimes end up collaborating with people that we feel really comfortable with or people that we've worked with for a long time. And, you know, in the world of business, that's just not the case. You have to, you have to collaborate with whoever is on the project, you know. And you may not know them very well, but they're put together because of their strengths, you know, and, and their. yeah, and their record for producing good, good work. And Jérémie's record was very clear to me, um, based on his website and what he had already created in the e-book that he published.
[00:25:51] Beth: And he, he definitely was the perfect collaborator. Um, it was, weird, of course, at the at the beginning, he's like, who are you? Why are you getting in touch with me? Which I totally understood. But, you know, that didn't last very long. Um, and even though at the time, Jérémie was in Japan, um, it was just happenstance that he ended up going to the International School of Panama, which is a school that had already been highlighted in a summit that I had attended about Universal Design for Learning, um, you know, because they're doing such great work with Universal Design for Learning there.
[00:26:31] Beth: And so, even though we're continents apart, um, the work that we're, we're doing and our common interest as international educators, you know, it's, it's easy to bring us together on, on a project of this magnitude. Um, and it's, it's been exciting ever since LUDIA launched in August.
[00:26:51] Olivia: It's brilliant. And you're reminding me of two terms: collective efficacy and professional capital. Collective efficacy is we get so much smarter together. Right? And I so appreciate the idea that you just put out there into the world that if we all sit together with people that we only agree with, boy, are we missing out on having our thinking pushed. Um, and I truly believe that if our beliefs and practices are not aligned, then, with research to have our back, then what are we doing? And so, you know, if someone pushes back on something you believe to be true, then you should be able to articulate why you believe what you believe and research to support it. So I think that's fascinating. The other term that I think about is professional capital, which you two are the definition of, you know, Jérémie, with your background on AI and UDL, Beth, with your work around UDL for years, um, you combined your brilliance to create LUDIA. So I just, I thank you for your efforts. Um, what do we have to look forward to coming from both of you? Jérémie, what are you working on right now?
[00:28:08] Jérémie: We are, uh, both working on LUDIA 2.0/LUDIA 3.0. Actually, um, and, and we have hopes to essentially, uh, maintain the, the current functionalities, which are provided by the Poe Platform and that are, that we appreciate quite a bit. Um, it's fantastic to, to have access to those functionalities, to make them available to other people for free, right? It's, there is no way to pay for any, for any service that LUDIA provides. It's entirely free, and there is no paid TD or add-ons; it's free. So, so we're hoping to maintain those functionalities, uh, but then provide even, even better service. Um, and, and then the idea would be because AI, um, those technologies keep changing, uh, that LUDIA will have to keep evolving along with the technology, right? So all the way to eventually, the dream or at least my dream in that would be, uh, finding a model or training a model to, to be, um, an expert at what, uh, LUDIA does and an expert in, uh, in UDL and in the science of learning and learning for all.
[00:29:39] Olivia: It's wonderful. Beth, you had shared with me, um, a 360° document. I think you've called it that I think is tremendously helpful. And Jérémie, you just said, you know, this is free. There are no paywalls. Um, “LUDIA understands and responds in multiple languages.” I just want to highlight some of the pieces so listeners know how phenomenal this chatbot is. “Assists everyone from novices to advanced UDL practitioners. It's accessible through touch or voice typing. No prompting skills are needed. And it is without limits.”
[00:30:17] Olivia: You know, both of you are also without limits and you not only inspire me, but I know followers will be inspired as well. What is the best way to get in touch with both of you? You both have some pretty amazing websites. I'll just put that out there. What is the best way to reach you, Beth?
[00:30:36] Beth: Oh, definitely, um, uh, through my website. So you can contact me via my direct email address or through the contact form. Um, and I pretty much live on LinkedIn, so I'm, I'm not really spread around when it comes to social media outlets. Um, because I think that most of these conversations really lend themselves to, you know, like you said, professional capitalism. And so, you know, choosing one pathway where we can all be, um, challenging each other and learning from each other on a professional level is, is where it's at for me. So LinkedIn is, is the best one.
[00:31:15] Olivia: Jérémie, how about you?
[00:31:18] Jérémie: Same. LinkedIn. That is where, that is where, um, Beth reached out to me first, and where we, we first started exchanging. Um, that is the best way to get, to get a hold of me. Send me a message on LinkedIn.
[00:31:33] Olivia: Wonderful, wonderful. Well, I am sure you will be receiving correspondence after this episode releases. And again, thank you both for your time. I know you have very, very packed schedules. Jérémie, you took a break right in the middle of the school day. So thank you so much. And I hope you both take good care. Thank you.
[00:31:53] Jérémie: Of course. Thank you for having us.
[00:31:53] Beth: Thank you so much for having us.
[00:31:54] Olivia: Absolutely. Schoolutions® is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guests, Beth Stark and Jérémie Rostan. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.