Coaches Sam Bennett and Morgan Davis offer insights into what makes instructional coaching such a powerful way to build collective efficacy and professional capital within schools. When grown-ups take risks while studying and growing together, their students are more engaged and apt to take risks themselves.
Connect and Learn with Sam via Email & Check Out Her Recommendations:
Connect with Morgan & Check Out Her Recommendations:
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#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
Coaches Sam Bennett and Morgan Davis offer insights into what makes instructional coaching such a powerful way to build collective efficacy and professional capital within schools. When grown-ups take risks while studying and growing together, their students are more engaged and apt to take risks themselves.
Connect and Learn with Sam via Email & Check Out Her Recommendations:
Connect with Morgan & Check Out Her Recommendations:
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions®, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so happy to have Morgan Davis and Sam Bennett back as guests on Schoolutions® podcast. I will tuck their previous episodes links into the show notes so you can learn from them all over again.
[00:00:27] Olivia: And just in case you haven't met Morgan and Sam yet, here's what makes them amazing. Morgan Davis has been an elementary classroom teacher, district-level literacy specialist, instructional coach, and literacy consultant. Morgan is a teacher's teacher and a coach's coach who designs learning experiences that parallel classroom practices for educators at every level of the system. Sam Bennett is an author, and the book that has influenced me most that she wrote is That Workshop Book. Sam, I have it right here. I love this book.
[00:01:09] Sam: Look at you! Almost twenty years!
[00:01:09] Olivia: Isn't that crazy? I love this book because it illuminates workshop structure. And as the book's cover says, it offers new systems and structures for classrooms that read, write, and think. Here's the thing - it is an older book, yet it completely offers a fresh perspective on workshop as a structure. So get the book. It's amazing. Sam, you are also a fearless changemaker and you offer superpowers to anyone that you support, myself included. You have helped me align my beliefs and practices with research. You have taught me how to design workshops that engage all learners. And most importantly, you make the world a better place because you ensure that students and adults alike really care about the world around us. So thank you both of you for being here, and welcome back as guests on Schoolutions®.
[00:02:12] Morgan: Thanks for having us.
[00:02:13] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:02:14] Sam: Yeah. Thanks, Olivia.
[00:02:15] Olivia: So I always start the episodes off by having guests name an educator or, um, anyone in the world that's inspired them to do what they do. Morgan, do you want to kick us off?
[00:02:30] Morgan: Well, um, uh, maybe a year and a half ago when I was on the podcast before I would, um, I would kick myself if I didn't take the opportunity to name the same person who's in the room today. I mean, you emailed me and said we might be on with Sam Bennett, and I said, um, pinch me, I must be dreaming because she is the person I named. Um, I first met Sam through That Workshop Book as well and have used that, um, text, especially the work around listening to teach, since I started teaching workshop classes. Every opportunity I get to talk about structure goes right back to that chapter, um, around workshop as a system and a structure and a routine and a ritual, it's all of those things and so much more.
[00:03:11] Morgan: And then, um, right before COVID, I had the opportunity to be in a year-long coaching, um, series with Sam. She came out and worked with our district and just like you said, she's, uh, she's just a changemaker. It was the most aligned coaching work I've ever done, where she wasn't asking us to do anything she wouldn't have done in schools with teachers or in the classroom with kids and really held us accountable in a way that upped the level of our game and our practice. So, thank you, Sam, so much.
[00:03:47] Olivia: Beautifully said.
[00:03:47] Sam: Okay, this is not okay. We're going to just start off as a puddle. I'm just going to start off as a puddle. How about that? I think this time of year is hard for me because everybody's on spring break, and I'm like, come on, people, we have things to do.
[00:04:02] Olivia: We do!
[00:04:03] Sam: Oh, not being in schools. Not being in schools this week. So, I love it. I just love it so much. But Morgan. Thank you. I got all got all teary there um, so my, is it my turn?
[00:04:16] Olivia: It is.
[00:04:16] Sam: You want me to go? Yeah. Okay. So it was so funny to think about this, Livi and the, I, I was trying to like, uh, ground myself, and I was like, okay, this could be an entire episode of a podcast of who, um, inspires me, but I, um, thank you both for mentioning Workshop Book., cause it's, I wrote, you know, it came out in 2007, I wrote it in 2006. So like, just thinking about that this morning, I was like, oh my God, it's almost, and the work in it is probably, I mean, 20 years old being in the classrooms and writing about those. So, but the fact that it's so relevant and still so grounded in my belief, every single educator involved with that book is still somehow intimately involved in schools and classrooms. So that to me is except for one who's retired. Peter has retired, but every single other person, um, Tovani who wrote the forward to Anna Loring, who did the illustrations is still an art educator and teacher educator in schools. Um, Katie is now an AP and an instructional coach and Ali is one of her teachers at her school.
[00:05:25] Sam: Ali is still teaching fourth grade. Jen works for Expeditionary Learning in this, in this huge systemic, making sure people are fed and filled up. Josh Feiger’s still in the classroom, teaching middle school, and Jenn Brauner is now a coach. So I just. It made me so weepy this morning thinking, okay, my people, and they're just, they're all in, and they're lifers. And that is, um, so much due to, uh, kind of our work and our collaboration together and learning from each other and kind of being learners, learners first. And, you know, and I get the opportunity to work with all of them still. Um, in kind of different, uh, configurations. So I would say those eight that are still attached to Workshop Book.
[00:06:15] Sam: And then the other group I'd really like to shout out are these, these amazing twenty educators I'm working with in the North Kansas City Schools, cause we started our cohort of twenty together right after COVID and I've never worked with happier, more engaged teachers ever. And in this hardest in this, you know, kind of one of the hardest seasons um that we've had around engagement for grown-ups and for kids, this little SPARK cohort in North Kansas City Schools I have to give them a little shout out because they fill me up.
[00:06:48] Olivia: Sam, I'm so excited because you've connected me with that cohort and I have an upcoming podcast episode with them to learn more about their MTSS, um, process and how they're engaging as educators. So, um, you just hit the nail on the head because here's the thing; engagement with adults, engagement with students, um, it's really hard right now. And just to show up and put our heart and soul into this work when we feel defeated sometimes. And what has continued to keep me going, um, are both of you, Morgan, your social reels have been inspiring.
[00:07:31] Olivia: Sam, I have had the privilege to learn from you for the last three years. With you right at my hip teaching me and coaching me. And so I think it's important to pause and have this conversation and just to celebrate what learning labs, that lab structure can do for grownups and adults. And their students alike.
[00:07:54] Olivia: So, um, I think it's important to start off our conversation with a question Sam, you ask often of everyone in your sessions: What matters most to you? It's on exit tickets. It's what your quotes usually evoke. So I wanted to ask each of you, if you had to just narrow it down, Morgan, what matters most to you as an instructional coach?
[00:08:22] Morgan: I think for me, um, when people ask me when I'm in a classroom with kids who don't know me or don't know my role, my answer is the same as when I'm in a room of adults. I am a teacher's teacher. And a lot of times kids eyes go wide and think, oh my gosh, that must mean X, Y, and Z, right? And I'm quick to follow it up with, that doesn't mean I know more than your teacher. In fact, your teacher teaches me all the time. It does mean that I'm responsible for your teacher's growth. Just like she or he is responsible for yours. So when your teacher's not in class with you, oftentimes they're with me and we are learning new things and trying on new things so that we can be better.
[00:09:01] Morgan: And we learn about those things together. Another thing I'll, um, anchor back to the work that I did with Sam, that's super important to me as a coach is parallel practice. That no matter what I'm planning for, whether it's whole group PD or, um, one on one with another coach or another teacher, I try to align that to classroom practice whenever possible. Because it can't feel separate. It can't feel different. It needs to immerse us in the work that we would be doing with kids, um, at as many turns as possible. And of course that doesn't mean, I think a lot of people think that means, oh, when we're learning about a literacy resource, we're going to be, you're going to be using a first-grade text with us.
[00:09:44] Morgan: Well, sometimes we might use a picture book together, right? But it means we're going to engage in the kind of thinking work, the kind of structure, the kind of, um, tasks that press on us the way we will turn around and press on kids learning. So, um, those two things that sort of, um, teachers’ teacher mentality. And with that then parallel practice, those are two things that really are important to me and matter to me in coaching.
[00:10:10] Olivia: I would say something I've learned from Sam, and it has changed my life as an instructional coach, but just a practitioner in general; yes, the idea of parallel practice and every learning experience I'm designing, it's always of the notion of that one third, two thirds. So I used to feel when I was working with educators or even with students, that if I wasn't doing the work, I wasn't doing my job. And yet I was actually stealing from their time to practice. So whatever learning experience I'm trying to design, I ask myself now: What are the outcomes that I want students or adults to leave with? What are the targets? And then Sam's helped me to plan that two thirds work time: How will I give the learner an opportunity to read, write, think, problem, solve their way to those targets and coach them as a facilitator? And then one-third, model is I need. So that one-third, two-thirds of the workshop structure has been invaluable.
[00:11:23] Olivia: And I would also say the idea that, yes, we have to take risks together, and yes, it's going to be really scary, and there is not a darn thing I can do outside of being by your side to take that fear away. And that's something I hear often from teachers, you know, this is so scary, it's so stressful. It's not bad stress though. It's not bad fear in a way that it's going to push our practice and we've all got each other's back. So I think those are two pieces that really matter to me now that I didn't think about enough before. Sam, how about you?
[00:12:05] Sam: Well, I'm like, mic drop. My work is done. I mean, you guys do not need me on this podcast for the record. So of course I would say ditto to everything you said and the way I just phrased it as I was, you know, writing before we met was I need to know teachers deeply to coach them well. There's just, there's just no way around it because it's not about the tips and tricks. It's about what do you care most about and how can I help you do that? And then the second piece that I think has come up and Olivia, this came up in our work together this spring, is that idea of my personal authenticity. I have a very leaky face…
[00:12:42] Olivia: You do.
[00:12:43] Sam: So when people say or do things that don't align, I, you know, I, I get this look on my face like, okay, you're gonna have to tell me more because, no, in my experience, I've never seen that work or never seen that impact kids or never seen that impact teachers. I say, I say, I think I say. I say no a lot. I mean, I try to say yes whenever possible, but I also go, no, but there's no way that works or okay, great, let's try it out. And let's let's watch kids. Let's watch kids and see. So those are the two things I would say knowing teachers deeply to coach them well, and your personal authenticity as a coach, having your head, heart and gut aligned, so you know why you are there.
[00:13:30] Olivia: I would say too the main way at this point that we can gain access to knowing people deeply is by having them craft context letters and that statement of, you know, what matters most to you? What do you believe to be true? What gets you out of bed in the morning to show up for work? What do you believe about teaching and learning? And then aligning research with that. And so as a coach, if I'm starting a coaching cycle with you, or as a school district, if we're starting this journey together, if you say that this is what you hope you would see practices in the classroom, or this is what you believe to be true, then when I have the gift of jumping into your classroom for a visit, I sure hope that's what I see. And if not, Sam, you've, you do the chiropractic alignment, you know, how can we help align? And so, so that beliefs, your beliefs and practices do have research that has your back. So I think that's huge. Um, and that lab structure, right? The lab structure is a game changer. So, Sam, can you break down, you know, what are the purposes of classroom labs, learning labs, coaching labs?
[00:14:51] Sam: Yeah. So the coolest thing about the lab structure is it starts with the core and the core is, is watching people learn and or watching people do their job. So if it's a teacher lab, we're watching kids learn. If it's a coaching lab, we're watching coaches coach. If it's a principal lab, we're watching principals principal. And that can mean a variety of things. And then same at the district level. I've even hosted labs where people at the district level, right? Associate superintendents and things watch each other do their jobs. Um, and so that experience, instead of talking about it is no, we're going to watch people learn and grow in front of us. So that's at the core. In order for that to be most impactful, you need a prebrief before with the cohort and the small group of people that are watching understand the full ecosystem of what they're about to see, because it's not about any one lesson, any one meeting, any one coaching session.
[00:15:47] Sam: It's about where does that fit in these larger goals. So whether it's a unit plan or professional development plan or a district professional development plan, the idea that that experience sits within these larger goals, because no one lesson or meeting or anything matters most. So you have a prebrief where we build background knowledge on beliefs, practices, and research alignment of whoever, whomever we're going to watch. Then after the experience, we label it and we say, okay, what did we see? How does it tie to the beliefs? How does it tie to the research? And then here's the most important thing is, and it's not about the person we just watched, it goes back to me. So, based on what I saw, what hit me in the gut or the head or the heart enough that I'm gonna try something within the next five days?
[00:16:38] Sam: That’s impacted me, that's going to impact the learners in my educational care. So those three parts, starting with the, what we're going to watch and then having a prebrief before and a debrief after. The other key piece is the thing we're going to watch can't just be business as usual. It can't just be, well, here's what I always do, come in and see. No way. It had that experience in my, in my experience, has to be heavily coached around a risk that this person is taking in front of other people because it's not about what we, well, here's what I do. You can come in and see. It's about. Okay, I'm good at my job and I'm going to take a really big, scary risk in front of you, even though I'm a master of my craft. Because that's where the learning happens. So that, whatever we're coming in to watch is also heavily coached for a risk. So that person takes a risk in front of you. Six to fifteen - Tovani’s done a lab in front of eighty educators, right? And every single time she takes a risk and does it scared with kids she's never met, content she's never taught, right? Like so, so that is the key to a lab structure, for me, that increases learning. There are lots of reasons to have mentor labs and master labs and whatever, but the key to me is the experience we watch is a little bit scary for the teacher or the administrator or the district or the principal that's hosting it.
[00:18:15] Sam: They're doing something different than they normally would.
[00:18:19] Olivia: So Morgan, let's, let's pause there because everything Sam just described, I know we live as well as coaches. So what is that making you think about when it comes to, you know, when you're running or facilitating labs, what are essential pieces from what Sam just described and what do you, how do you put your twist on that?
[00:18:44] Morgan: Yeah. So I would agree um, I love that you position the experience, the lab experience itself at the core and then build around that. Um, when I think of things, um, I think of things very linearly, right? So my first thought was the prebrief, right? Or the, even the preparation of the host, but you're right, that, that lab experience is so critical. And I'll talk a minute about, um, what I did to kind of tweak that. But I would agree with you as well, that that prebrief, um, where, where we're not only connecting to we're getting we're getting other voices in the room, right? Like when we did ours, our learning target for the year has been: We can create the conditions for students to demonstrate ownership of their learning.
[00:19:27] Morgan: So that has been our target all year long. So we brought in Ron Berger’s book. We brought in Fisher and Frey. We brought in other voices into the room so that it wasn't just the people around the table naming the things we were about to see or anticipating what we were about to see. Same thing in the debrief, then it's not it wasn't, um a good move; it was a move supported by other people in the room as well. Um, the, the other thing I love about learning labs that I was able to kind of play around with and tweak is to build a little bit more inquiry into that lab structure itself. So, as you were talking earlier about, um, about what matters to you as coaching.
[00:20:11] Morgan: I was thinking about this role of inquiry and the other educator I always lean on for this is Katie Wood Ray and the idea that as teachers, we should leave blank spaces in our lesson plans and how powerful that is for kids to know that I can't do this until you show up; until you start giving input and feedback into the loop. And so I had this idea, probably back in October. We were doing what Sam was saying. We were learning about student ownership. We were talking about what it looked like with kids. Um, but we weren't actually seeing it happen. And, um, the structure for professional learning in my building is that we meet sometimes only once a month.
[00:20:52] Morgan: And so it just wasn't enough for us to really get a sense that we were making an impact. So I had this idea, I pitched it to my principal in November. And said, I want to shut down whole group PD for January and February, and I want everybody to opt into a either coaching cycle or learning lab. The goal is that number one, it had to be a shared experience with either me and one other colleague, if they wanted it to be kind of a more personalized approach or, a lab structure or a cohort of teachers that could either be vertical or horizontal across grade levels. The other requirement was it had to be in the room with kids. So I had six teachers opt into coaching cycle and I had the other twenty one opt into learning labs. And so starting at the end of January and for like three weeks straight, that's what we did.
[00:21:48] Morgan: And it was super scary for me because I left big holes in our lab structure that I couldn't know what was going to fill until we got there. So one of the things we did a little differently was during the prebrief, in connection with the research, as well as the learning we had done in the fall, um, we made something. So when I had a group of kindergarten teachers, we made the checklist that then we were going to take into the lab together. So it kind of crossed over into lessons study; some of those components. Um, in our lab that had third and fourth-grade teachers together, we made a micro-progression, which was perfect, right? Third and fourth-grade teachers in the room together talking about the progression of the learning around text structure as it becomes more and more sophisticated. Then we went into the classroom, and this is where the other tweak happened. I, um, wanted to make, uh, an experience for teachers where no one person was carrying the risk.
[00:22:52] Morgan: So, um, in two of the labs, I had the classroom teacher teach the whole group lesson because our focus was on small group or conferring or one on one instruction; every teacher then jumped in and started conferring with kids or started running a small group so that when we came back to the debrief, everybody had an experience that they were sharing firsthand what they had done with kids. So, in addition to all those things that I think are really necessary about the structure of labs, I do think we can play around with who's carrying the risk, and what we do in that prebrief can take on a variety of formats as well.
[00:23:32] Olivia: Morgan, you're amazing!
[00:23:33] Sam: Brilliant! That is brilliant! Brilliant!
[00:23:34] Olivia: It's so good. So good. And it's crazy because it's a perfect segue. Sam and I have had so many conversations around, you know, what parts of the structure of lab, do we, or do we have to stick with, with fidelity, and then where is there more flex, where is there more flexibility? And something that I've really thought a lot about is the, the labs happening over at least two days, um, because, you know, what's the purpose of day one in the lab structure and what's the purpose of day two? And, um, Sam, you know, we've talked about that, that two days, is really, you know, the day one is around teacher learning, where the day two is focused on student growth. Um, but Morgan, something you just said that has been a game changer for me as a lab facilitator recently, that day two in the prebrief; really identifying and articulating what is the risk? What is the stretch that the lab host is going to be taking? And then how are we all going to collectively practice whatever it is; the work behind that risk together, so we are walking into that classroom. If it is around math, then we are going to get, think about the why. Behind the math that the kids will be doing. If it's with literacy, we can practice, um, annotating and attaching thinking strategies to our annotation. Whatever the students are going to be doing, we better live that together on that day two that aligns with the risk that the teacher is going to be taking, which really isn't identified day one until after in the debrief, right?
[00:25:23] Morgan: Yeah. I think one of the things that shifted for me too was thinking about it; yes, each classroom teacher, um, met with me ahead of time. There wasn't as much of a lift on prepping the host because I wasn't asking them to be the host teacher. I was needing their classroom to host us. Right? So we walked into classroom, like I had eight teachers with me walking into a class of twenty-three second graders and that's overwhelming for them, but they, they stepped up. They allowed us to learn from them. Um, in that case, um, in two of the labs, I actually taught the whole group lesson because what I wanted was for the lab to really have a very narrow focus on whatever it was we were learning. So in one of the labs, we were learning about how to critique our work.
[00:26:13] Morgan: And so I did a guided practice that we had pre-planned together, and then each teacher then facilitated the work time in small groups, which when we talked in the debrief, we said, gosh, that really that's not real life, right? At no time in the world do you teach a lesson and then send kids out to be in a three-to-one with another adult. Right? So we talked about how we would scale that up. And in that lab in particular, I had three teachers that took the lesson that I had taught, um, and the practice that they had engaged with, turned it around and did it the very next day. So, um, super powerful and immediate application.
[00:26:50] Olivia: So, Sam, what's making, what is this making you think about?
[00:26:56] Sam: Well, I think it's that authenticity piece, right? Like Morgan is a teacher's teacher and she's, you know, she's been in the classroom. And so the fact that she would teach the whole group lesson, the kind of take that, um, that fear factor and, and, you know, if, if teachers still feel like there's a ton of power in the minilesson, which I do not, but, um, that idea of Morgan taking that off makes sense for her. I would never do that in ten million years. I would never do that. And, that sounds like a perfect structure for what she was trying to go for and get at and allow the teachers to take the biggest risk they could in the moment and then turn around and do it the next day, right? So that to me is the, the act, the, the structure matters and it's like trust the process, right?
[00:27:40] Sam: So because Morgan trusts the process, she can play around with some of the pieces. Because she knows the end, the end is teachers taking risks in their classroom and paying careful attention to student learning. So, so I, every, every single thing she said, students were at the core. And, and that idea of student ownership was at the core. So what, what, how can I create the conditions? So students take more ownership. And because that was at the core of it, I'm like, oh my God, that's the perfect structure to get at that question with that target. To take the anxiety level down so people could take more risks. So it's that really, that's the zone of proximal development, right?
[00:28:20] Sam: We're back to Vygotsky. She has done that for the teacher-learners, right? The teacher-learner focus. She has done that. She has gotten right in that zone and helped them focus so that they can have a huger impact that very next day of, of putting learners at the center and going, all right, what do my kids need to take more ownership than they're currently taking?
[00:28:42] Olivia: Sam, you know, I, I haven't seen you, um, recently enough, I'll say. And so something that I always wonder about is, is that idea of the coach as teacher, um, and I heard you just say, like, I would never do that. And then I feel like I walk a fine line because as a learner myself, I learned really well from someone modeling something for me first, like I don't, I can't think of anything I've learned in my life without watching it is a model from somewhere else, whether it be a video, you know, we knit and I learned my best knitting stitches from YouTube videos of how to do it. So, you know, how do you, as a coach, if you are not going to model for teachers, how do you show them if they're asking, like, what does this look and feel like? What models do you use?
[00:29:38] Sam: I mean, this makes me laugh a little bit, Olivia, because this was our first big fight.
[00:29:42] Olivia: Yeah, it was. I cried.
[00:29:44] Sam: I know that, but that, that's the thing that I'm, uh, that's one of the things that is so crucial to me. And I also have the privilege of, you know, working weekly with Cris Tovani. Right? So I've got the master teacher's teacher, right? Debbie Miller too. I've got them on my hip, at my beck and call, but what I've learned from them is that I can coach the teacher, even the one that's scared to take a risk and they can model if they're well-planned and if they can articulate why they're doing what they're doing every minute of that minilesson. So, so I have ultimate belief in my planning and coaching that I can get any teacher to do any kind of minilesson that will be a thousand times better of anything that would ever come out of my mouth with kids.
[00:30:43] Sam: Cause I'm not with kids on a daily basis. I'm not. I'm not. I'm with grown-ups on a daily basis. So I can get a grown-up to do anything, pretty much. Pretty much I can get a grown-up to do anything. But kids are wildcards and I don't have enough experience with them on a daily basis. So that's why I wouldn't necessarily model for teachers. I would plan with them for them to model and make sure they felt completely head, heart, gut aligned so they knew why they were doing what they were doing.
[00:31:16] Olivia: Yeah, I think the co-planning is essential. Um, any experience that's happening, the planning is everything. So Morgan, you've even alluded, there usually is pre-planning or priming is I've learned now from Sam and Priya Parker, there's that priming, um, pre-game work behind the scenes before you ever get to that prebrief meeting to make sure that whomever is going to be doing the work with students feels comfy to do that. Morgan, your social reels have been rocking lately on Insta and Facebook. So what's inspiring you to capture and highlight the work you're doing?
[00:31:59] Morgan: I think the first thing that really made me, I want to say like giddy about this work. This has just been like, I told, I told my staff as we culminated all this work together at the end that this is like career culminating sort of like pinnacle work that I feel like I was able to capture and the first experience I had with that was the day after the first lab. We had with that 3rd and 4th-grade team practiced with a micro-progression and moved out to confer with kids and then come back and debrief and had great success.
[00:32:37] Morgan: It was a first lab. It was a little bit less polished than the one that I did at the end. By the time I did the 4th one, I was much better - it was much better, but I was walking past another classroom of a teacher who hadn't been part of that lab and I was walking past her classroom and I like did one of those moments where I stopped and then took three steps back and looked back in, there's the micro-progression on her board. She's using it with kids. She hadn't been in the lab. They had had maybe minutes together between the Monday morning lab and the Tuesday morning lesson. And yet she was like, I, I saw, I saw my teammate using it yesterday.
[00:33:17] Morgan: She mentioned it to me. I said, why not? I'll give it a try. And so the amount of risk-taking that happened within and across labs, just like in, in the classroom with kids, we can't overestimate how much kids are able to collaborate without us. The same thing is true with teachers and this experience where everybody was all in; either in a coaching cycle or a lab, just like stirred the pot of our building. And people were talking about practices that they had heard about. I had the team that did the critique, one of their teammates was not part of the critique. And she was like, man, I missed out! Her lab was two days later. She then was able to cross-pollinate and bring that back to her, her team. And so the learning was exponentially greater because they weren't in grade-level teams.
[00:34:04] Morgan: And yet the feedback was, we now need to come back and do this with grade level teams so that we're planning the lesson together, trying something together, and moving the learning forward. So it just was, it was a way of learning that I couldn't have possibly known was possible when I had this idea. I had I had an inkling that that we might be able to do something. I had no idea the magic it was going to put into our building and the way it was going to grow our teachers and our kids.
[00:34:35] Olivia: So exciting and I think you've deemed it a learning extravaganza and it's just that.
[00:34:45] Morgan: I think I had to call it that because my principal kept checking in with me. I have to give a shout-out to her. She is by far another educator who has influenced me and she has the primary philosophy that we learn by doing. So when I have this idea, she, um, you know, said, you know, Okay. And then started checking in on me in the weeks leading up to this, like, are we still sure that this is going to, this is a huge endeavor in a really small amount of time. Within three weeks, we accomplished this. And, um, I, I just couldn't have imagined what it did for us, but that learning by doing is so critical.
[00:35:28] Sam: What's your principal's name? I want to applaud her.
[00:34:45] Morgan: Oh, yes, she's amazing. Her name is Sally, uh, Sally Mills. She's, she is, um, my champion and, um, I was, I was nervous going into this and every time she and I touched base, it was just another reiteration that it's going to be whatever it is and everybody's going to benefit from it regardless. And, and then, like I said, the teachers and students took it to a whole new level, so…
[00:35:55] Olivia: Thank you, Sally. And I think it needs to be said that this work cannot happen without the masterminds that craft the schedules and book the subs. And people are probably wondering subs, substitute teachers; they're pretty hard to find. You're right! And so that's why it's a miracle. Uh, but this work is so stinking worth it, uh, because it grows the, the, just the beliefs and the research base, so quickly, and it's the only way to do it. To pull our sleeves up and just jump in together. Um, and there also has to be a willingness, just saying, if, if you are a person that you say, like, there's no way I'm doing this and it's too much, you're going to be missing out. I've got news. Is it? Oh, is it a lot? Yes. But it is worth every second to see students shining, to see grownups shining. Um, so I think we've all, we've all been a part of it so we know how magnificent it is. Um, Sam, where do you, who do you circle up with for a coaching community?
[00:37:12] Sam: Well, I think I'm, uh, I don't know. I'm just lucky in a lot of ways that I'm constantly learning. My coaching community, I mean, I would say like, like online, Elena Aguilar, like she's got the, she's got everything I need to, to fill me up enough. Right? And then just in the schools and the people that are doing the work. So that, you know, the teachers coaching me and saying, okay, I tried this and here's what it looked like. And it's messy. So like, I, I need that reality check of like, okay, here's ideas and then here's what it looks like in practice. And so, and then, um, of course, uh, Cris and I, uh, on the, on the road together and we, I mean, literally twelve hours a day, just like hashing out what that looks like. And she's this great reality check of what can happen with kids. Um, and I'm a good reality check for her on what's possible with grownups and adults. And, and, um, and so, you know, I would say she and I, you know, on a daily basis, just going around and round and round, um, and then every single teacher and coach and principal I'm able to work with, cause I think it's that constant reality check, um, of that's why we get the work has to stay close to schools. You know, I don't, I don't present at conferences and things like that. I have to be in a building. I have to see what's happening in the real work.
[00:38:34] Olivia: Yeah. I would say that my favorite thing, Sam, was when you told me I'm a lifer because that access to you and to just, the world. Like Morgan, we've never met in person, yet we have such a connection. And so the world of social media to some, it's like, oh, it's just another thing. But for me, it's that connectivity and the bigger community, um, to know others that believe in what you do in this world of education. I think it's everything. Um, and I want to just also say coaching as Sam, you just said, it's messy. This work is messy. It's not about these labs are not about someone getting up and doing a perfect lesson and then saying, watch me work and everyone going off and mimicking it. That is not what this is about at all. And it is so refreshing in that lens. It's, it's really trying something together, um, and then reflecting on that practice and saying what went well, what didn't. Taking a small moment of time to debrief really, but then saying, what are we going to do tomorrow based on student work? Um, and as Sam, you say what came out of students’ mouths and their pencils, because that's how you know, right? Um, so Morgan, who do you circle up with, with your coaching community?
[00:39:57] Morgan: Um, I think I'm super fortunate to have a pretty robust coaching community within my district. We have almost one hundred coaches at the elementary level and we meet up, um, usually at least once or twice a month for different professional learning and the way we sense make together is something that can only happen in a room full of coaches, right? Um, I think coaching, um, is important to work. I also think if we're not careful, it can be really lonely work because there isn't a team of coaches typically in a building.
[00:40:32] Morgan: And even if there are, they typically have their own lens with which they're doing their work. And so I do um, try to reach out to that community whenever I need them. I also have, um, when I was on the podcast before, um, I was there with Amy Ellerman. She's now my PLC coach. So I'm able to reach out to her and, and really grapple with things. Um, we also have two coaching coordinators who provide that. So just like teachers deserve coaches, coaches deserve coaches, and having that community close by that you can reach out to, I think is really critical. So, um, follow Elena Aguilar and, um, I use a lot of Jim Knight’s work and, and try to keep up with that.
[00:41:16] Morgan: And I'm learning from coaches on social media, right? So I'm listening to, to people talk about their experiences. And one of the things that you, that you both hit on is this idea that coaching really has to happen in the arena, right? We cannot be spectators. We cannot be critics in the corner. Um, we really do need to have rolled up our sleeves and gotten in there. So a lot of the coaching work I'm doing now is outside of that coaching community or that connection that I'm doing is outside the coaching community. It is more with, um, teachers and practice and coaches. I'm, I'm working side by side or coaching with, and I'm learning from them. Um, Because there's only so many hours in the day, right? And I feel like as a coach, I even go through phases of like, I'm in a gaining phase where please feed me. I need to be fed by my community. And then there are times when, like with these labs, I was in a production phase. So yes, please give me the research and stuff. I'll file it away. I'll park it for later, but I'm not in a place where I can receive that. And I think the same thing might be true for, well, I'm sure it is for our classroom teachers as well. So, um, being mindful of how we're connecting and when we're connecting and that it's okay to, to be connected, um, at different levels, at different times. We don't have to be all in, all the time, um, that we can find our outlets and our connections from a variety of places.
[00:42:39] Olivia: Morgan! Oh my gosh. I cannot think of a more gorgeous way to articulate how we're all feeling. And I, I'm going to just wrap our conversation there because it was perfect. Mwah. Um, you know, in, in service of connecting, I think it's also really important for people to know how to get in touch with both of you. So Morgan, you are also a writer. What is the best way for folks to connect with you?
[00:43:07] Morgan: Um, I have a blog that I started, um, several, several years ago as part of the Two Writing Teachers Slice of Life story challenge. And it's the place where I'm now building additional content. So that's called, um, It's About Making Space. And then I'm also on Instagram, um, @melizdavis. And, um, I'm sure that will be in the show notes or somehow we'll connect. If you're on Instagram, um, you'll be able to connect through the episode.
[00:43:33] Olivia: Perfect. Perfect. I will include links to all of your goodness in the show notes. Sam, what's the best way to connect with you outside of making sure to get That Workshop Book?
[00:43:45] Sam: The best way is email. Currently, we're just going to, uh, Tovani and I are working on a, on a blog through Substack. So that will be, you know, kicking off this summer cause we're doing a big conference in the summer of 2025, um, thinking about, uh, right now we're calling it 360/365, where this idea of we're, this, we're full humans, 360 degrees and 365 days a year. So, um, particularly in the education community, feeling like martyrs when school's in session, and then getting our lives back in the summer. No, we can't we can't that's not that's not how we go. It's not best for us or for kids. But so yeah, so we're gonna do this. I don't know. We're very excited about it planning this big conference. And so then the Substack will uh link to that. So as soon as we get our ducks in a row I will send that to you and you can put it, put it wherever you want to put it and otherwise email.
[00:44:42] Olivia: Awesome. All right. I will include that in the show notes as well. You are both phenomenal human beings and I am beyond grateful to know you and have you as part of my life and my community. Um, thank you for taking the time to have this conversation.
[00:44:58] Morgan: Thank you.
[00:44:59] Sam: Thank you, Olivia.
[00:44:59] Olivia: Take care. Schoolutions® is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guests, Sam Bennett and Morgan Davis. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions®sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.