Olivia Wahl and Dr. Wendy Bunker continue their conversation about the recently released Science of Reading Literacy Briefs by the New York State Education Department, produced for the NYSED by Nonie K. Lesaux, PhD and Katie C. Carr, M.Ed. This episode is one of two episodes that focus on Literacy Brief 7: Science of Reading: Leading for Literacy.
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Olivia Wahl and Dr. Wendy Bunker continue their conversation about the recently released Science of Reading Literacy Briefs by the New York State Education Department, produced for the NYSED by Nonie K. Lesaux, PhD and Katie C. Carr, M.Ed. This episode is one of two episodes that focus on Literacy Brief 7: Science of Reading: Leading for Literacy.
Episode Mentions:
Connect & Learn with Olivia & Wahl Educational Consulting, Inc.
Connect & Learn with Wendy
Get solutions from Schoolutions!
#solutionsfromschoolutions #schoolutionsinspires #schoolutionspodcast
[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions®, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so happy to be here with my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Uh, we are going to be speaking over the next two episodes to Literacy Brief 7. It's called the Science of Reading: Leading for Literacy. And Wendy and I, we've talked about this because this Brief is composed of, um, taking key action steps. And it's so full of information that we've decided we are going to break it up into two segments, one unpacking action steps, 1-4.
[00:00:50] Olivia: And then the following episode, we'll be focusing just on action step number 5. So let's jump in again. These Briefs are crafted by Dr. Nonie K. Lesaux and Katie Carr, M.Ed., and we will put our own spin and interpretation on the work based on our work in schools. So I'm excited to have this conversation. Um, Wendy, thanks for taking the time.
[00:01:15] Wendy: Yeah. You bet.
[00:01:16] Olivia: Yeah, um, I know we put heavy focus just on that opening paragraph: Leading for Literacy: Equity and Excellence. Um, and I think it's important actually to read it aloud. We always put links in the show notes, but this is, it pretty much captures everything that will follow in the Briefs. “To achieve excellence and equity, district and school leaders must take key action steps that are in alignment with the Science of Reading. These action steps center on building core knowledge, creating a shared vision, collaborative data-driven, (we're going to say informed-making…so I'll read that again) data-driven (informed) decision-making, and understanding that meaningful change demands persistence and consistency (we're adding the word patience in there as well) year over year.”
[00:02:14] Olivia: So what does that mean? We've, we've talked about this, Wendy. It means all hands on deck. Every single layer of the school system needs to be involved when any change is happening. This cannot stop or start at the doors of our classroom teachers. Everyone has to be involved in these conversations, um, and that idea of a shared vision, you know, what does it mean to be involved in something that you don't feel like you have a place at the table to speak to? So what is the shared vision?
[00:02:49] Olivia: And this Brief offers different action steps. Um, so that leadership action, step 1, understand the Science of Reading. For some school districts, the Science of Reading is a core curricula that's being purchased with a stamp on it that says Science of Reading, which is terrifying. Um, for others, you know, they're pouring over and doing a really deep dive into the many years of research. Um, you and I have talked about the definition for, um, Comprehensive Literacy Instruction, Research-Informed. I appreciate that term. Um, and just the idea of really understanding Briefs 1 and 2 that we also have episodes for. I'll tuck that into the show notes. Um, if you really need to go back to go forward and make sure you're calibrated, um, action step 2, um, you're going to unpack that, understand the relationship between the Science of Reading and key instructional frameworks. So what are you thinking with that action step?
[00:03:51] Wendy: It's really important that we think about students’ access, um, to the materials, to the learning, um, to all of the components of what it means to be a student, to be a learner. And so two of the things that help us as teachers, as administrators, as decision-makers, are, um, those two frameworks, one being the Culturally
Responsive-Sustaining Education Framework, and the other being the Social Emotional Learning Framework. And both of those help us frame our view of instruction, of education, of learning, through an asset-based model rather than a deficit thinking so we're always looking at what students come with and then how we can build on who they are and what they bring to expand their learning to help them become the learners, the future citizens that we, that we dream that they'll be, um, rather than looking at individual students and saying, what, where are the gaps? What are they lacking? So, when we, when we look at the, um, what they bring, both culturally, um, cognitively, um, experientially, it's, it's a much more, um, optimistic way of looking at things, but it also lays a foundation for growth.
[00:05:43] Wendy: And so it's back to Carol Dweck and the growth mindset, rather than a fixed mindset where, um, uh, intelligence or ability is fixed and it's you're born a certain way, but with a growth mindset, we say learning is work and you know, you have to fail. You have to sometimes things don't work out. We pick ourselves up and we try again with the supports and with the, um, you know, all of the things that are in place, both structurally and um, big picture instruction and the, um, the structures as well. So the building structures and the district structures both come into play there. So looking more closely at the, um, the Brief itself under the CRSE (Culturally Responsive-Sustaining Education), um, it describes that as being “a learning environment that affirms racial, linguistic and cultural identities. It prepares students for rigor and independent learning. It helps students develop their abilities to connect across lines of difference, elevate historically marginalized voices, and empower students as agents of social change.”
[00:07:21] Wendy: That's huge. And, um, I just keep thinking about equity and access, and it really opens the doors for everyone um, as a learner under the Social Emotional Learning Framework, there are five key competencies that, of course, we want all students to acquire. Uh, and to refine, and it says right here that “those are needed to be successful in life, and those are self-awareness, social-awareness, self-management, responsible decision-making, and relationship skills.”
[00:07:51] Wendy: And how vital those are, um, in the classroom, but also in the world.
[00:07:57] Olivia: You know, something this is making me really just pause and think about too, it's so short-sighted to not include caregivers and families in this bigger picture as well with the, especially with the Culturally Responsive-Sustaining Education Framework. I, I've recently read Nawal Qarooni’s book, um, Nourishing Caregiver Collaborations. And I've also recently read Ari Gerzon-Kessler’s book, On the Same Team, and they come at different, um, positions around - Ari speaks to FET teams, uh, really making sure that meetings that are happening once a month in the school building, um, have representation from historically, um, marginalized voices.
[00:08:44] Olivia: But Nawal's book speaks a lot to, you know, children and their caregivers bring so many layers, um, and threads of expertise and background that we are not tapping into. And Nawal offers this gorgeous example of family labsites and it's beautiful work she does of bringing families and caregivers during the school day to help them see the work that's unfolding. And then she offers questions that they can go home with. I mean, both of these books are speaking to something that I feel like is not addressed enough. And so, with that idea of that leadership action step 2, it really is also, I think, how are we bringing caregivers and people from the outside community in to have a seat at the table and be part of the conversation for our children?
[00:09:44] Olivia: Um, so that was something you just actually made me think about too. Those books are phenomenal that I've recently been loving. So, good stuff. Yeah. Um, jumping to let me turn the page, cumbersomely. Um, jumping to leadership action step 3, “cultivate the conditions for adult learning and collaborative planning and action.” This speaks to systems and supports culture and conditions. Um, and the last part of the, the sentence here, um, speaks to “teams engage effectively in the complex and challenging work of regularly examining data, including student work to inform instructional plans and adjustments.” And what I've said to you is just this deep fear of mine with school districts that are mandating curricula options.
[00:10:41] Olivia: And we've, we've heard this as coaches that, no, we have to get through the unit. We have to get through the program. We have to finish. And I am so worried that we're losing children in this push to just slog through day-after-day. We're losing the art of teaching. Um, and you know, the idea of: the only way you know if students are engaged in what you are teaching them is by what they're writing and what they're saying. So if you are not using their work to inform your next steps, what, what are we doing? Um, so that idea of examining data, yes, there are bigger assessments, formative or summative assessments that we're giving, um, and district-wide assessments. But we also, student work is what I believe we should be using as educators to plan our day-to-day instruction.
[00:11:36] Olivia: Even if a program tells me tomorrow, do this. You can obviously use scripted curricula if you must, but. I would take pause with every single lesson that's offered and ask, is this a need of most of my students? Is this a need of some of my students? Is this a need of one of outlier student? And based on my answers, I'm not winging it. I'm going to use student work to, to offer. And then I would choose how I'm facilitating my class with the balance of.1/3 myself as a facilitator; 2/3 am I jumping right in then? Are they going to start independently, and I'm going to scoop up a small group that that lesson may speak to, based on student work and data?
[00:12:27] Olivia: Am I going to teach a whole class lesson based on most needing that? Or is it going to be a 1:1 conference with the student that needs the work? Maybe I need to do more immersion because none of them are ready for that yet. So all of these programs that are being purchased, not just in New York State, but everywhere, all over that have a Science of Reading label, um, this leadership action step for me means that, all of our planning, all the adjustments we're making needs to be grounded in what our kids are saying and what they're showing us their understanding is through writing. Um, I don't know what you think about that.
[00:13:08] Wendy: Um, I, I agree with you um, I would say 90%of the time, um, or 90% of these cases. I do um, I think about students who are struggling with or who have not yet acquired the, um, the skills that are fall under phonological awareness, phonemic awareness, and phonics, um; so decoding. I think that that instruction. essentially must be explicitly taught and it needs to be systematically taught. However, even there, um, and I'm going to go back to one of the things that you first read where, um, you were talking about that leading for literacy, where it talks about collaborative, data-driven decision making and you and I both prefer the term data-informed decision making. So whichever I mean, it's, you know, it's potato, potato, right? Um, so when we, when we use data, both formative assessment, data, summative assessment data, diagnostic data, and especially in the case of teaching reading skills, right? Foundational reading. Um, with student work. So when we sit with a small group of students and we know exactly where they are on the ladder of learning to read, um, I think we, we look at both. We look at what the, what the systematic instruction says, and we look at where each individual student is, and we gauge accordingly. So, um, yes, and…is what I, is what the way I respond to that.
[00:15:06] Olivia: Yeah, I see it and I hear you too. I, um, I think that the hardest thing with these Briefs is that it's lovely and they do speak to Pre K-12th grade. And so I love that you just brought it back on our radar. Yeah, that world of PreK all the way through really 3rd grade, I would say it's a whole other level of decision-making for teachers to ask, you know, what explicit instruction must happen because we know historically as well, I mean, I think everyone would agree that word study, instruction, phonemic awareness, phonological or anything to do with how we were teaching children to decode, it has not been consistent. Um, and so this movement, the Science of Reading movement has helped with consistency, but then the pendulum swings and we go extreme often in the world of education.
[00:16:11] Olivia: And so for us, I think that idea of being centrists and striking a balance between what makes sense, um, to ensure there's consistency and that explicit instruction. And yet also. make sure that we're meeting the needs of each child in our class and helping students thrive based on where they are. I love that you brought up asset-based thinking, too, right? So here's where the kids are and here's what they need next.
[00:16:38] Wendy: Right. And just to, just to go back to that, just for a moment, one of the things that I always think about when I think about, you mentioned word study, so vocabulary, um, comprehension, fluency, and then phonological awareness, phonological, um, and phonemic awareness, and phonics. There are constrained and unconstrained skills, and the constrained skills are the things that we can reach mastery on. So phonics, phonological awareness, phonemic awareness, and even fluency to some degree, there's a, there's a point of mastery. You can get to the point where you can decode any single word you come up against. But things like vocabulary development and comprehension are never-ending. We're never going to reach mastery or maximum knowledge on those things. So the, the. Non-constrained skills are the things that we just, we keep reaching farther and farther and farther. And there's always more to learn. There's always more to explore.
[00:17:43] Olivia: You know what you're reminding me of too. I know we have to jump into leadership action step four, but you just reminded me when we were studying, you know, how do we break standards down? And sometimes we'll look at a high school learning target, and it feels not rigorous enough. And yet because what evolves is the complexity of the text, and so even though a learning target may feel like it's very close to what it may read in 4th grade, well, the level of sophistication and complexity with what students are navigating as they read the text and the text sets and the content becomes much more, um, I'm going to say, It can get dicey sometimes with what they're reading, um, in middle and high school.
[00:18:32] Olivia: So that's a fascinating lens as well. Right? You know, it may feel like, you know, where is the rigor? And I think the rigor comes with the text sets we're choosing and what we're, what we're asking students to consider and think about and go beyond their own reality, um, to, to develop that sense of empathy and understanding of what it's like to live in someone else's skin. And I think that that's interesting. Um, one of the pieces about you and our friendship that I am so grateful for is your understanding of assessment systems in general. You really have a beautiful in-depth understanding of all of the different tools that are being utilized and something that I've shared with you before is I think districts have way too many assessments. That they’re, I hate the term dabbling, but I'm going to say they're dabbling with and they're totally inconsistent with. And I don't think they're being used. I think teachers are assessing sometimes more than they're teaching, it feels like, I think a lot of teachers would agree with that. So, um, I'd love for you to speak to leadership action step 4 and offer insights for our listeners around that.
[00:19:56] Wendy: Um, I think you have made several good points recently, just in the last couple of minutes. Um, and it, I think several of those points go back to that idea of collaborative decision making. So, assembling a team of, you know, teachers, administrators, reading specialists, psychologists, you know, what, whomever you have in your building, in your district, we need to come together and study and think and talk honestly and openly and transparently. Um, and then make decisions based on what we know and what we know and hope for our students. And so the point that you just brought up about assessments, um, we need to have, again, an honest conversation about what are the assessments we're using? Why are we using them? What data do those assessments give us?
[00:20:57] Wendy: And then how is it helping us decide about what we're doing instructionally? Um, and so that the graphic on page two of this Brief is that, that same triangle that we're used to seeing when we think about RtI, um, where the base of the triangle is the assessment, those screening assessments that are so important, especially for younger learners, it gives us a base, right? Um, and, um, and then also those assessments, like the, the New York State, um, ELA and math assessments, the science assessments, anything that is, um, you know, that that gives us a sense of where students are now. Those two things cannot be equated with each other. They're very, very different, but they're administered across the board and they give us information…
[00:21:55] Olivia: For all…
[00:21:58] Wendy: For all. Right. So they, especially the screeners for the youngest kids are really. helps us know where they're starting, and it helps us think about again, that asset-based learning. Um, some students need more assessment. So then we get into the diagnostic assessment. If the screener tells us certain things about a student and shows us areas in need that need growth, then we use a diagnostic assessment, and then we drill down to more specific places. Is it phonological awareness? Is it phonemic awareness? Is it, um, are there some comprehension things or some language things that are surfacing, and then we can make decisions based on that information. The other thing that fits in that, and this is the middle section of a triangle, the other thing that lives there is progress monitoring. And when we're, and this I would equate with, um, like that Tier II instruction.
[00:23:03] Olivia: Yeah.
[00:23:03] Wendy: Where, where, we have the classroom instruction, but then there's a little bit more instruction. So whether it's in the classroom or it's with a reading specialist or some other type of content specialist, that progress monitoring helps us go along whatever your time period is and, and really closely keep track of the growth that the student is making. Um, so the smallest part of the triangle, that top part of the triangle is just a few learners. Who's, um, that initial screener, the diagnostic assessment says, okay, we still have not gone far enough to really pinpoint where the areas of need are.
[00:23:57] Wendy: And so that might require, um, uh, some sort of a, um, a cognitive assessment. It might be something that the psychologist would do. Um, but that's a very, very small number of students. Um, sometimes it's linked to a referral for special education. Um, so there's that, you know, that specialized assessment that not everyone can do. Um, but that again is designed to show where the areas of need are so that then a program or some sort of process can be put in place so that students receive the support and the instruction that they need to become, um, you know, to, to learn, to develop.
[00:24:45] Olivia: Yeah. Um, the, the last thing I think just needs to be said is that right now, so many school districts have invested copious amounts of money in programs and I will always invest in teachers and professional learning over a program. Because I think that's sustainable. Programs come and go. Um, and I think some districts are scrambling with the best of intent, but again, it's short-sighted. And so I want to bring the conversation back to that leadership action step 3 and under systems and supports, it actually says “regular onsite coaching and professional learning connected to strategic priorities and new initiatives.”
[00:25:35] Olivia: If your school district is taking something new on which every school district pretty much does every year, the best way to support your teachers is not a one-and-done professional learning experience by the publishing company. It's to have sustained coaching from a building coach, a district-level coach; you and I have opportunities to serve both of those roles. But it's that idea of, you know, making sense of long-term planning, making sense of using student work to inform day-to-day planning. Um, and really understanding, you know, what are the big ideas that this work is evoking and having those conversations and instructional coaches are invaluable in inspiring and connecting, um, and really helping to germinate the work and to spread it across and within school districts.
[00:26:36] Olivia: So I, I just wanted to circle back, um, selfishly because I know we love being instructional coaches so much for many reasons. But it truly is an investment in teachers and ultimately in children with that parallel practice, because we're all learning. So, um, I'm excited to continue this conversation with the next episode and we'll be again, honing in still on Brief 7, but we'll be looking at leadership action, step number 5, “building systems for effective assessment, instruction links to support educators and serve all learners.”
And then that goes in depth with, um, links at the district-level, links at the school level, and links at the classroom level. So we felt like that was a conversation all unto its own. Um, thank you as always for taking the time to catch up tonight, Wendy.
[00:27:29] Wendy: You bet. We always have lots to talk about.
[00:27:32] Olivia: We sure do! Take care.
[00:27:30] Wendy: You too.
[00:27:32] Olivia: Bye.
[00:27:30] Wendy: Bye bye.
[00:27:37] Olivia: Schoolutions® is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Bunker. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Thank you for joining the conversation. Please keep listening, let’s continue finding inspiration together.