[00:00:00] Olivia: Hi there, I'm so happy you're here. Your time is precious. And because of that, I want to let you know what you'll get by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Michael B Horn. By the end of this episode, you'll have discovered how to balance restriction and innovation in the classroom when it comes to technology use.

[00:00:20] Olivia: Even more, you'll get effective strategies for how to involve caregivers in the conversation. You'll understand why top-down policy mandates are not the way to go. And you'll even leave with potential positive uses of smartphones and educational settings. Stay with us. I am so excited to have you join our conversation.

[00:00:42] Olivia: Let's go! This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies. The podcast that extends education beyond the classroom, a show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive. Olivia Wahl, and I am happy to welcome my guest today, Michael B. Horn.

[00:01:09] Olivia: Let me tell you a little bit about Michael. Michael Horn strives to create a world in which all individuals can build their passions, fulfill their potential, and live a life of purpose through his writing, speaking, and work with a portfolio of education organizations. Michael is the co-founder and a distinguished fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute for Disruptive Innovation.

[00:01:33] Olivia: A nonprofit think tank, and he teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. He co-hosts the top education podcasts, Future U and Class Disrupted, and is a regular contributor to Forbes.com. If that is not enough, Michael writes the Substack newsletter, The Future of Education, which I adore, and also serves as an executive director for Education Next.

[00:02:00] Olivia: Our conversation today will focus on smartphone bans in schools. Michael, welcome. It is such an honor to have you as a guest today. 

[00:02:08] Michael: No, thank you. Um, 

[00:02:09] Olivia: I'm so excited because, you know, I have followed your work for a very long time and, um, I reached out to a number of, colleagues, friends, caregivers to have insight and have their questions around smartphones in schools and, uh, be able to share those questions with you as well.

[00:02:29] Olivia: So you and I have connected and, um, I shared, I always like to start episodes by you having you share an inspiring educator from your life. Would you share with listeners? 

[00:02:39] Michael: Yeah, you know, normally when I get this question, I talk about Clay Christensen because obviously he changed my life. I got to co-author a book with him, start the Clay Christensen Institute.

[00:02:48] Michael: But as I was thinking about this, I want to go actually back to a chemistry teacher that I had, Mr. Schifrin, Stuart Schifrin. And the reason is actually a very counterintuitive reason. I'm gonna totally like bare my soul here, which is sophomore year of high school. Um, I had him first semester. It was a great experience.

[00:03:08] Michael: And then second semester, I was in the other chemistry teacher’s class. I won't name her name, but it was less than inspiring. And being a, you know, somewhat jerk, uh, high school kid, I started skipping her class regularly and I would literally go to his Office the, uh, the first day of each new unit that semester and say, okay, she's going to make the textbook so confusing.

[00:03:32] Michael: Just help me out. And he'd be like, okay, the big concepts you really need to focus on are these go forth and you'll be great. I did great in the class. And I guess the reason I bring it up is he was less interested in the bureaucracy and see time. Then are you going to learn? And are you going to be able to teach?

[00:03:49] Michael: And I started tutoring my fellow students in the class and things like that. And I just thought, you know, I'm not proud of some of that behavior, but I'm proud of like the big message that it was about the learning, not the, you know, seat time or sort of the, the, the, the going along to getting along as opposed to the big picture.

[00:04:06] Michael: And then he saw that in me and was able to go with it. I just still love him for it. 

[00:04:11] Olivia: It's amazing. And I think so much of being in schools is how do we engage kids? And these days it gets, it feels harder. Um, and yet a lot of my work as a coach in schools, kids are ready. They are ready. They are dying to be engaged.

[00:04:31] Olivia: It's just, you know, I think a lot of grownups think the smartphone is a distraction, but it's how are we crafting our curricula? Um, our conversation is going to focus on smartphone bans and my, what I appreciate about your work, about your research, um, about anything I've listened to you speaking around this and reading, um, your work.

[00:04:55] Olivia: It's really that you it's not even centrist. It's that you've shared. You think smartphones probably should be banned in schools, but it shouldn't be the policy makers that have the control to do that. Um, and another piece you illuminated for me and, um, on point interview is that, um, So many pieces. So much of the research points out what not to do, but they don't really offer insight on what we could do.

[00:05:28] Olivia: So I think that's important too. So let's start off the conversation. Um, you know, smartphone bans in schools, what state district, um, school-based strategies have been effective for the “bans” or getting some control over this? 

[00:05:46] Michael: Yeah. So let's, let's start on the bans first. Um, the schools that have been able to effectively ban it, they tend to go with these Yondr pouches, right?

[00:05:54] Michael: They drop them in at the beginning of the school day. They put them in a locker, they put them in the homeroom, wherever it might be. And that's where they are, right? And I think a lot of schools, a lot of educators have reported convincingly that this works really well. It takes a huge distraction out of the hands of, you know, students, you probably remember when we grew up, it was things like slap bracelets or stuff like that that occasionally had to get confiscated, right?

[00:06:19] Michael: And look, if it's disruptive, if it's distracting to the educational model, I think educators should have the power to be able to say, This is not part of the learning environment. It's going away. And this is a really secure way to do so. And it's been very effective for those schools that have put it in place.

[00:06:36] Michael: So I think that's a great example of how to do a ban, if you will. And it's empowering, I think, to the teachers in the schools, because it gives them the tools to actually carry that out, as opposed to say, like, go figure it out yourself, which is hard. 

[00:06:52] Olivia: Well, so here's the thing. So I reached out to a couple of superintendents. I have the gift of knowing as colleagues and friends and their biggest fear is they don't want a ban to be something else that has to be monitored, policed. Teachers have enough on their plates. So I know I've heard of Yondr patch or the pouches being put into place. And then I also have concerns about it because I care deeply for my teachers and the principals.

[00:07:20] Olivia: And so, you know, I think a lot about caregivers and how are we bringing caregivers, families, students into the conversation. And so it's an all hands on deck type of approach. Um, what have you seen success with there? 

[00:07:35] Michael: Yeah, so let's let's go on two different points there. One, and I believe strongly like the one of the reasons, there's many reasons, but one of the reasons I'm against a policy ban on this, I don't want superintendents, teachers, principals, all of a sudden being monitored, criminalized like I just because they didn't collect all the phones or something like that just seems like a road that is not one we ought to be going down.

[00:08:02] Michael: I'd rather we empower the educators to say, is this something we believe in and it's their own actions as opposed to a compliance-driven thing that has some sort of consequences tied to it. So that's number one. Number two. I think the communities that have done really well in this. At some point, you have to have the conversation with parents, right?

[00:08:22] Michael: And the caregivers because if you don't number one, if you put the Yondr pouches in the bans, you know that a lot of parents are going to get really upset. They're going to say, how do I communicate with my kid? What if there's an emergency all of the things right? And so at some point you have to have that conversation with the community.

[00:08:40] Michael: You can't avoid it. That's the second piece of this as well. And I know this is something that you've thought about because you've signed the pledge for your 12-year-old, which is to say, yeah, have the conversation with the parents. Is this something you really need to be giving your kids when they're in middle school before they're capable of, you know, dealing with all the social media distractions, all the buzzing on the phone, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:09:05] Michael: I believe strongly that kids are getting smartphones with incredible power. I mean, more power in the palm of your hand than sent the first people to the moon, but just like, right? And put in perspective. It's, you know, that's a lot of power to be giving kids at that age. And I don't think we need to be doing that.

[00:09:23] Michael: And so I get that it's hard in communities where some of the kids, they've got smartphones, some have flip phones, some have no phones, some have a watch. But I think having the conversation as a community, what do you want your kids? You know, what's the environment you want them to be growing up in is a really important one in putting the evidence that John Heidt and others Uh, put out there around the state of teenagers and the mental health and growing up today in, in, in this world, putting that all out there, I think, is incredibly important.

[00:09:57] Olivia: I, I think one of my biggest regrets as a mom, um, was getting a phone too early, and it was for my older son who's now 16. Um, it was the thick of COVID. Um, he was in seventh grade and I thought, you know, this is may be the only way that he can communicate with friends. And, you know, he, he was a voluminous reader before he got a smartphone.

[00:10:24] Olivia: And, um, you know, the pile of books on his nightstand would be there. And I cannot let that happen. With my 12-year-old, he, again, is a reader, and he's like 13 books, comic books, everything stacked on his nightstand. And I can't see that go away in the same way. And I also think there's a big difference between a flip phone or a watch.

[00:10:49] Olivia: So we can be in touch with children versus having access to social media. I think those get completely intertwined and it's very dangerous. Because, um, you know, I've, again, I'm a caregiver who has lived lockdown drills, um, active shootings in the neighborhood, and this is real. The, the United States is not navigating this very well.

[00:11:14] Olivia: And so I think there's that fear that so many parents have of how can I get in touch? What ways, you know, with the school districts are with folks that you're supporting this in this journey. How do schools get in touch with caregivers in an emergency situation outside of them being reliant on phones?

[00:11:34] Michael: Yeah, well, let's say a couple things here, right? Number one, I think you're right that the flip phones and even the watches are completely different story from the smartphones with social media access, and I agree with you. I think we do ourselves a disservice on this conversation when we are conflating phones with social media, because as I look at the evidence, and I find a lot of the evidence that Jon Haidt has built with his team and Jean Twenge and others, very persuasive, but it seems to me largely social media and a lot less just phones by themselves, right?

[00:12:09] Michael: Um, I, I'm, I'm of the generation. I did not have a cell phone when I was going out in K-12 schooling, but my much younger brother, he did, um, at the end, but it was not a smartphone, right? Um, it was just a simple, like, car phone that he could detach and bring it in, uh, to the, um, to the school. So, so I get the surge.

[00:12:28] Michael: Uh, so, so that's number one. I think there is a way to communicate. But number two, a lot of the teachers end up still having their phones on them, uh, even in these environments. And, you know, Now, this is something that we can talk about because some places want to ban that as well. They say, what's the example you're setting?

[00:12:44] Michael: But a lot of teachers we know have access to these tools and can quickly get word out through the various apps, whether it's Parentsquare, Remind, et cetera, to start the tree and notify families of what's going on if there is a situation. So. I guess all by way of saying each school is going to come up with their own plan that makes sense for them.

[00:13:04] Michael: As the head of our school will tell me, uh, the couple of times I've asked her, she said, we're not divulging all that to you because then that plan would be out there and that would have problems. But we do have a plan. We've thought it through. These are the big questions we are answering in that plan and we will make sure we communicate with you.

[00:13:23] Michael: And so I think you know, that's the big thing. You have to show parents there will be a communication loop. It will be meaningful. It will help you understand what you can and frankly, what you can't do, because when those things happen, it's just an awful situation, right? There's not it's it's not like you're generally empowering parents when you're communicating with them in these awful times.

[00:13:44] Michael: Um, but we will. This is how we'll keep you informed and give you the faith and trust that you have that communication loop. I think that's the big question that you're trying to answer, and the means can vary from school community to school community. 

[00:13:58] Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. And you're making me think to, you know, when I was a teacher in the classroom, I had a Polaroid camera.

[00:14:05] Olivia: So I'm dating myself terribly. Um, digital cameras did come into the mix. There were not smartphones. Um, I had just moved to New York City when I got my first cell phone and it was very rudimentary, not even a smartphone. But here's the thing. Now, the teachers and grownups I'm working with, they want to share it The beautiful things that are happening in their classrooms through social.

[00:14:28] Olivia: Sometimes they may have a Twitter set up, uh, or an ex-account set up for their classroom. Um, and I know sometimes that's okay with caregivers. Sometimes it's not, but I think it's short-sighted. There was a point in time where we were talking about the benefit. Of kids being able to pull a smartphone out and have access to information that sometimes the school district computers block.

[00:14:54] Olivia: So I feel like right now in this moment, it's very ban the cell phones, get them out of classrooms. Kids are disengaged. But I want to go back a step and say, like, you know, what are the ways our kids could use cell phones? Um, that could be positive. What, what, what research could you share there? 

[00:15:14] Michael: Yeah, 100%.

[00:15:15] Michael: And this is where so this is my other big pushes, you know, which is the reason I hate the policymakers getting involved is I get a lot of communications from educators that have found really cool ways to use smartphones in the classroom to enhance the learning. And so my big argument, and this is true with laptops.

[00:15:32] Michael: And when I wrote Disrupting Class was that if you're doing the traditional stand-and-deliver, chalk-talk, whole-class method of learning. I get it. Technology doesn't make a lot of sense. Like when I teach my, and let me just say this, when I teach at Harvard, I have everyone put their laptops and phones away too, because we're doing case study discussion.

[00:15:51] Michael: That's completely Socratic. So if someone is on, you know, disengaged from the conversation, It breaks down the dialogue, and we don't learn from each other. It's all about the model of learning, though. A lot of teachers, they set up blended learning options where a group of students is working on a problem together on technology, right?

[00:16:09] Michael: Another group of students is learning independently on technology, right? There's all these different forms. There's, you know, really cool schools, uh, out in Colorado, for example, where they have outdoor classrooms. And part of that is that the students are actually out in nature. They're using apps on the phone to take pictures of different things.

[00:16:26] Michael: It's really cool, analyze what they might be, discuss what that means. And it creates like it's part of the learning environment itself. There's another school in Connecticut, St. Luke's that uses an app for math on the phone to drive some of the learning and some of the questions that they're asking.

[00:16:44] Michael: Okay, so they've like intentionally built that in. Why would we possibly put a policy in place that could create a barrier to that educator saying? You know, I've actually figured out a way to not just engage, but re-engage my kids so that they're psyched about what we're doing here. And we're all on the same page.

[00:17:02] Michael: And look, the moment, you know, that school in Colorado, it's in Douglas County, Highlands Ranch High School. They, you know, if it breaks down, people are using it inappropriately, they say, Okay, there's no phones today, we're going back. And And then they can go back to it, but they have the control to make that choice because there are really cool learning apps.

[00:17:24] Michael: Um, I'm just going to give you a couple more because I think there's so much coming out right now. You think about like learning language, um, right. Foreign language on these phones. Now, everyone we know is using Duolingo, but that's just scratching the surface at the moment of what's possible. Uh, and to engage with people in different languages and so forth on the phones is just incredible.

[00:17:47] Michael: And then I'm an advisor to this, uh, MBA program called the Quantic School of Business. Okay. So this is higher education. Now I'm going to tell you right now, it is the coolest way to learn anything I've ever experienced where you're answering questions literally every six to seven seconds. So you are an active learner, making sense of right, the information and putting it into your, into memory.

[00:18:13] Michael: You can do some really cool stuff like Quizlet, right? With flashcards, Kahoot, like there's some really cool stuff you can do with smartphones. It just has to be intentional and the educator has to be making that choice, not the kids and not from someone up high. That's a policymaker in my view. 

[00:18:32] Olivia: Yeah, I think there's so much you're speaking to the model, the educational model that we're using to teach. Um, and that's where a lot of the work I'm doing in schools as an instructional coach focuses on ensuring that the teacher as a facilitator has one-third of any chunk of time to facilitate. It's not back-to-back. It's sprinkled throughout based on what the kids need support. It's so good, right? And then two-thirds, the kids own.

[00:18:59] Olivia: And so then grown-up has to say in this two-thirds chunk of time, um, you know, what are students going to read, right? Think problem solve, talk about that. Then I need to use my one-third to model and facilitate that work so that they reach targets and are successful. This is all based on the work of a dear friend and colleague, Sam Bennett.

[00:19:20] Olivia: Um, she wrote That Workshop Book and it is amazing. Amazing. Um, but we're, we're taking this knowledge and spreading it from kindergarten through 12th grade in school districts. And it's incredible. Um, and what we're seeing is a lot of students don't even want their phones in their hands or near them during this work because they are so Involved in the reading.

[00:19:45] Olivia: Yes, in the reading work, the writing work and then conversations. Why? How could you have your phone out at that time? So going back, there are two terms from your point interview that really struck me and I jotted them down. Differentiated you. And purpose driven and that those two phrases illuminate for me what you're just speaking to it is not black and white.

[00:20:07] Olivia: It is not one size fits all. And I think that having conversations like this, it will help caregivers make better choices. I would never, and I'm going to say never in all caps, which I rarely do. I would never get a student in middle school, a smartphone. I think it's completely unnecessary. I think again, a flip phone or a smart watch that you can be in touch and communicate.

[00:20:33] Olivia: That is actually, I think, critical. So there's my juxtaposition, the smartphone having All the access and my 12 year old, um, I shared this with you, they were just undergoing state tests, which it is what it is. And kids had to turn their phones in, which is logical. But he said to me, the morning I was taking him to school of the first day of the test, he said, I just, you know, I'm not bringing my phone to school today.

[00:20:58] Olivia: It was like, why? He goes, it's embarrassing to put my flip phone up with all of my friends, smartphones. I said, you'll survive. Okay. We'll be in touch. You can even walk home and enjoy the beautiful weather. You will live. Um, but it's just, you know, these things as caregivers, there's tremendous pressure on the kids to fit in, but there's also a lot of pressure on the families to fit in.

[00:21:23] Olivia: And I think, um, of the, the term social trap, um, and that idea of the social action is what has to be required. So, you know, you've gone through a lot of positives and negatives. I'm also thinking on the impacts of kids in your research. You know, if we do use the under pouch, or if we do ban smartphones, what are the impacts emotionally, cognitively behavior leave?

[00:21:51] Olivia: You've seen on students. 

[00:21:53] Michael: Yeah, so what I think we're reading from the literature is that when you get kids off of the smartphones all the time is that you're taking away a lot of the, uh, again, it comes down to social media and this amplification of negative social pressure, right? The contagion, some of those things where, uh, I'm judging myself my self worth based on the number of clicks that I get right or I'm judging myself relative to other kids who are posting pictures of them having an amazing time at some party that I wasn't allowed to be able to be at this exclusionary sense, right?

[00:22:28] Michael: Competitive exclusionary comparative all these things that we all do, but we learn how to manage better. Frankly, not all of us great as we get older, but but we learn how to manage somewhat better and not completely connected to our self-worth. When you're a teenager, you don't have that perspective. Uh, and so these things amplify a lot of these pressures that get really, really bad.

[00:22:53] Michael: And so taking that away can be really helpful. I will want to, I do want to make a point, which is that just because we've banned them in schools doesn't mean we're taking those pressures though, away from kids, because A lot of this stuff is occurring after school. It's occurring at late hours. One of the biggest harmful effects we know the smartphones is that it impedes sleep that you stay on these things and the blue light right in the the over-stimulation keeps you up when you should be sleeping.

[00:23:22] Michael: And so this is not solving All of those things. It's just taking away some of the distractions so that we can engage in school. But let's go to the model that you help people implement, which is you've made it intrinsically motivating. So now I'm engaged. You didn't even need to make a rule about the phone because I just wanted to put it away because I'm so there and present with you.

[00:23:44] Michael: And I think that's the bigger statement, which is yeah. A lot of people who think about learning, they will focus on, you know, the most efficient path to building your background knowledge or whatever else. The second part of the equation is I've got to be motivated and excited by it. And learning can be hard.

[00:24:03] Michael: And we as humans like to be lazy. So you've got to find things that hook us and excite us. And that is part of learning. It is like. It's the motivation plus, you know, yes, phonics is better than, you know, whole language, right? For learning how to read, but that doesn't mean that I can just give any phonics.

[00:24:21] Michael: I've got to find a way to tap into something that gets you that spark and gets you attuned to me. So you're doing the work because if you don't do the work, you don't learn. 

[00:24:32] Olivia: That's it. That's it. And I would say to, you know, that idea of relevancy. And so as our kids get older. A lot of the high school students and middle school students, I have the gift of working with their teachers and so I'm visiting their classrooms.

[00:24:49] Olivia: It's so much, you know, the kids have a lot to say and they really do have opinions and voice and they do follow the news and research. And so I think it's such a missed opportunity and it's really short sighted if we're not also asking, um, the their opinions and what they think about this. Um, and I recently saw a video of a college professor that was actually asking his students that seem he used the word like very, very well engaged, developed human beings to go back and to ask them to say, you know, when should you have received your first smartphone?

[00:25:28] Olivia: And many of them said, I got my phone too early. I was in like fourth grade, fifth grade. Um, so I just, I think this is, it's a hard conversation, but it needs to continue to evolve and have as many people around the table as possible. 

[00:25:47] Michael: So, yeah, and it's such a good point because I think also having that conversation as a school community.

[00:25:53] Michael: And creating a place where people can read the research, people can read disagreeing views and then air out conversations and say, like, actually, as a community, this is where we're coming to on this. So this isn't even an educator thing that we're asking you to enforce. This is something that we've decided, hey, we're you know, this is something we want fewer of our kids.

[00:26:12] Michael: And look, not everyone's gonna agree, but we want fewer of our kids to have smartphones. So we don't create that social pressure where your son says, I'm not gonna even bring my flip phone because it's not cool. What would it be like to be in a school where parents are saying? Actually, only a minority of those kids have the smartphones.

[00:26:30] Michael: So we've sort of changed that social dynamic in some important ways. I'm not saying that's easy. I get how look, I'm looking at my kids are both nine. So I'm staring down, you know, this coming down. But and I can see how hard it is going to be. But I think the more we're having these conversations, we're wrestling with the research.

[00:26:49] Michael: And we're asking, does someone really need a smartphone when they're 11? I think more and more, we're going to say no, that doesn't make any sense at all. 

[00:26:58] Olivia: Yeah, it doesn't. And what you alluded to, I shared with you that the, the way that I ended up showing my true commitment, um, that I am not getting a smartphone for my now sixth grader is, um, I had him come into my office and I signed the Wait Until 8th Pledge with him by my side, because he needed to see that that is not something that I'm going to continue having a debate around. Um, and we recently have been having conversation around a smart watch, because that could serve both of our dual purposes and being in touch and him having something that he feels, um, helps him be more like in the know of the world, but, um, I don't know, I, I'm just, I'm grateful for you and your research and advocacy.

[00:27:44] Olivia: Um, to offer educators the autonomy, um, even if they may not want it. I, I, I get that it's hard, right?

[00:27:53] Michael: I get that it's hard on the educators too. Yeah, and I get some educators have been relieved when the state has passed a bill because now it's not theirs. I just think that the other side of this is going to get really tricky as well when an educator didn't catch a smartphone or they, or they said, gee, I have an educational purpose and one parent disagrees.

[00:28:15] Michael: We've seen what's happened over the last few years when that happens, uh, those impacts are not great. I think on educators or our schools either. I just, I, I isn't, and I get it. Public schools are public. They're political because they're part of the public. The more, though, I think we can push this down to the individual communities and classrooms themselves, the less we're going to create this cauldron of pressure on educators that I just, I don't think it's fair to them.

[00:28:43] Michael: I, there's some great educators that come up with different models that it's intentional, it's purpose-driven, right? It allows them to differentiate either the conversation, the activity, or for the kid, for what they might need at any given point in time. All of which are valid and valuable, and so I just want educators to have that full suite of tools and power at their disposal.

[00:29:03] Michael: And look, I'd be totally fine if every policymaker said, we're going to provide enough funds so that every school can buy Yondr pouches so we have them just in case. 

[00:29:12] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:29:13] Michael: Great. Let's give the, let's give the tools so you can do it. 

[00:29:16] Olivia: Right. 

[00:29:16] Michael: That's about all I would do. 

[00:29:18] Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And, um, I appreciate all the research that you share and in your pieces you link to.

[00:29:26] Olivia: So I will make sure to link the pieces that I go back to over and over and I share. Are there any lingering, um, nuggets of research that you would offer caregivers or educators that are on your mind right now around this topic? 

[00:29:42] Michael: No, I mean, I think we've hit the big ones. I would say what's been most distressing to me, I think, is that I feel like there's a snowball effect right now on, we should just ban it at the policy level.

[00:29:53] Michael: And I think we can come and I think again, 80 percent of the time within a given classroom. That's probably the right answer. I think that 20 percent could grow over time to something bigger as more educators come up with different models. And I'd hate for us to limit that at this time. Number 1, Number 2.

[00:30:12] Michael: The only other thing I would say is. You said you said not quite centrist approach when you described me before, but I think I think that's right, because I'm constantly trying to look at the third way, and I think both sides have truth on this. So how can we come up with something sensible that allows kids to engage again and allows those educators the autonomy they need if they see a great use for those things, those devices in the classroom?

[00:30:39] Olivia: Yeah, well said. I, you know, I can't thank you enough for your work. Um, and just being, I find you very inspirational as a human, because well, you're, you're offering, you know, here, it's not that easy. And I think that's sometimes, you know, we need to hear that, that it's, you can't just say Ban everything. And, um, it's just not the answer.

[00:31:02] Olivia: It's not the route to what we need to go to. So, uh, Michael, thank you for your time and having this conversation today. 

[00:31:10] Michael: Deeply appreciative. You'd create the space for the conversation. So thank you. 

[00:31:13] Olivia: Thank you. Take care. Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest Michael B. Horn for sharing how to balance restriction and innovation when it comes to classroom technology use.

[00:31:44] Olivia: Now I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com Let me know how you and your school or district are implementing smartphone restrictions. Tell me how you're involving community on decision-making and even share some positive uses for smartphones in schools. Don't forget to tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies that you can apply immediately to better the lives of the children in your care. I can't wait for you to join the conversation next week. See you then.