Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so happy you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with the incredible Gwyneth Hagen. In this episode, Gwyneth and I discuss moving education from a factory model to her beautiful description of a forest model. She uses patterns in nature as metaphors for more organic, interconnected learning systems that honor both educators’ and students’ natural growth processes.

You'll learn how natural patterns like spirals, waves, and fractals can inform better learning design. Why effective learning requires a balance of 50 percent preparation and 50 percent presence. And Gwyneth also illuminates why, as adults, we need to experience the same kind of wonder-filled, permission-free learning that we want to create for our students.[00:01:00] 

Stay with us. I'm so excited to have you join our conversation. This is Schoolutions: Coaching & Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom, a show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive.

I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so happy to introduce you to my friend and colleague Gwyneth Hagen. She is a self-described founder, educator, designer, and facilitator who believes that powerful learning is transformative, that it can make us better, and in turn, the world better. For the last 20 years, Gwyneth has served as a teacher, curriculum designer, leadership coach, and writer.

Currently, she's working on a series called Starting Small to help leaders and teams grow intentionally. Gwyneth, I am so honored to hold space for [00:02:00] this conversation today. You inspire me not only as an educator, but as an artist as well. Your eye for seeing the small things and appreciating them and staying curious is so beautiful.

So I am honored to share you and. The way you see the world around us, um, with my listeners today. So thank you for taking the time. 

Gwyneth: I am so happy to be here. It's such an honor. 

Olivia: And I know I'm excited because you have all different projects you're working on. And we get to share that with listeners. You just got some good news. So let's kick off with a researcher or a piece of research that you lean on when it comes to natural patterns in the world around us. 

Gwyneth: Sure. So, um, I have a couple of folks that I draw on. Um, so I first started becoming, um, interested in the [00:03:00] connections between, uh, natural patterns or patterns in the natural world and learning, um, when I read, um, adrienne marie brown's Emergent Strategy.

Um, I think that her work has really influenced my thinking. Um, she writes about, um, how, uh, we can learn from nature to, um, work in social justice. And, um, I really started to think about how does that apply to the work that I do as an educator? How can I think about that? How can I think about my work through that lens?

Um, and I just really started to center in on myself as a poet. And I've always written poetry for a really long time. Um, and I just started to really connect to, uh, the observations of poets and scientists and how there's a lot of overlap there. Um, [00:04:00] and so I started to really think about natural patterns and patterns that show up in the natural world.

Um, and I started to read some of Philip Ball's work, um, and he has a fantastic book on patterns in nature, um, and it's very beautiful. There's lots of amazing photography, um, but he really talks about the science, the mathematics, and really just the beauty, um, and the poetry of these patterns. Um, and so a lot of my background is focused on, um, the science of learning.

And so when I start to think about these patterns, um, you know, humans are really pattern seekers and we're always looking for patterns, um, and I thought, you know, actually, there's a lot of overlap in the kinds of patterns we see in nature and the patterns that we, um, encounter as learners. And so I really started to think deeply about that and started to write about that.

Olivia: And I have been, I've had the privilege [00:05:00] of you sharing your poetry, some of your visual design work, and I think another reason I feel so connected to you, I shared my sister is an artist, and she, she, creates jewelry, beautiful glass jewelry that is all tied to patterns in nature. So she gravitates more toward the hexagon and looking at, um, bees and honeycombs.

So you'd see a lot of that symbolism in her artwork, but it resonated so much with me that there are people in this world that appreciate slowing down. And staying curious and lingering with thinking instead of this rush to just move through the day. And my sister Melanie, I think sees the world like that.

And I think you do too. Um, and then I think of the school system and where we are now. Yeah. And I always have hope. I always [00:06:00] see endless possibility. And what I love is that you are really trying to crack open, getting away from that factory model. So let's stop, let's pause there and talk about that a little bit.

You know, what is your thinking about moving away or the call to move beyond that? 

Gwyneth: Yeah, so I work with, um, a lot of schools and organizations right now who are trying to think about that, um, how do we move from this kind of mechanistic, linear, um, you know, kind of cogs in a wheel type of model that we've been using really since the industrial revolution in our country.

Um, that factory model of education to something else, right? Everyone kind of acknowledges that that's needed. The thing that I really noticed, um, is that there's lots of ideas and, uh, theories and frameworks, experiential [00:07:00] learning, project-based learning, um, lots of amazing things that I know are fantastic ways of, uh, teaching and learning with students.

Um, but I kind of noticed that, honestly, like, as a poet, I noticed, wow, you know, the factory model is such a vivid and clear metaphor. It's so concrete, but we don't have anything like that. For where we're going, where we want to be going. And so what does that mean when we don't have the language that's concrete enough to describe something?

There's a lot of power in that for, um, there's lots of great research from linguists and cognitive scientists around, um, the power of metaphors to shape thinking and action. And it really is almost at kind of like a subconscious level. Um, it's built into our language in so many different ways. Um, you've probably often heard that, like, if there isn't a particular word or phrase in one language for something, but it's in another, it really shapes the way people think about the [00:08:00] world.

Um, so, having that in mind, what are we missing out on as educators when we don't have a metaphor that, like, really inspires us, right? That really brings us into the concrete root of who we are as human beings. Um, and so, like, as I was, uh, uh, exploring all these patterns in nature, I really thought, you know, the forest is such a perfect metaphor, um, it helps that there's some alliteration, the poet in me loves that.

Like, so the idea of moving from the factory to the forest in education, what does that mean? Like, what does it mean to move into the forest? Well, you can think about, You know, a forest is an ecosystem, and I think some folks are really starting to talk about learning and learning systems as ecosystems.

Yes. I think it's incredibly powerful. Um, so that's like a really encouraging trend for me in education. Um, but I feel like ecosystem is still a little bit abstract. [00:09:00] And so that's why I love the concreteness of the forest. Like we can really imagine this place, right? We can think of the complexity, the messiness, the growth, the beauty.

Yeah. The interdependence of organisms in this place, and so I think that powerful metaphor is something that's really needed in education because. Um, I think that the, the theories, the frameworks, the complexity. of what we're trying to do needs an anchor. 

Olivia: Yeah, there's a word you introduced me to, and it's, it's, you see, you go from the linear model to, it's a centric.

What is the term in your writing issue? Oh, 

Gwyneth: Oh, uh, um, so there's a circulinear. You can think about it. That's it. 

Olivia: Wait, no, we need to say it slower because I saw this sort of, it's like, mind blown. Wait a second. And it's obviously still lingering in my short-term. I need to solidify it in my long-term. But I want you to say that word, please for us.

Gwyneth: Sure, so actually, [00:10:00] I was reading a post from a colleague and friend of mine, Jake Fishbein, and he is thinking about special education. And he was talking about. Um, you know, he's specifically thinking about access for families in the 504 and IEP process and how there's so many barriers to understanding that process as a parent.

Um, in particular, he was talking about, um, his own identity and thinking about that, but my son has ADHD. And so I love this. But yeah, this resonated with me as a parent and as an educator, but that there have to be like multiple pathways in something. Like you can't just like open the door. So if you're in a factory, you open the door, you go into the factory, right?

Maybe there are a couple of other doors, but there are doors. In a forest, there aren't doors. Like I love the fact that really like. The metaphor allows us to think more broadly about how our, what our entry points are. And [00:11:00] we know that with a lot of neurodiversity out there and just diversity in general of human experience, that that's what's needed to foster our learning.

Um, and so I think that word really resonated with me from his work, and I really started to make some connections with what I was doing. 

Olivia: And so say it again slowly for listeners. 

Gwyneth: Circulinear. 

Olivia: Circulinear. And I can close my eyes and picture that idea, that concept of a forest, and that there's So many entry points. And it really, I think, helps us as educators see that we can come as we are. And that's what I also love about nature. So let's pivot and think of that natural design and learning. And you, you again, see universal design for learning in nature. Let's get specific with some patterns. 

Gwyneth: Sure. 

Olivia: Sure. 

Gwyneth: Sure. So, um, there are lots of different patterns [00:12:00] in nature, um, but when I started to explore patterns in nature and to make connections to learning, um, I first.

Made my entry point through the spiral. Um, and I did that because adrienne marie brown talks about tuning into the prevalence of the spiral and I just loved that line. Um, but I was like, what does that mean for me? What does it mean for me to tune into that pattern? Um, and when I thought about it, it really was that the spiral pattern is a pattern of growth.

Um, and it's something that starts small and grows outward through repetition. And, uh, if you know anything about the science of learning, there's just, like, so much there to unpack, right? The, the incremental nature of learning, and you think about, uh, Carol Dweck's work with growth mindset, the, um, the power of repetition and repetition and learning.

Um, and also, uh, you know, the interconnectedness of the [00:13:00] spiral, I think is really powerful so that it builds on itself, right? And so for me, I think a lot about the sociocultural aspects of learning and that, that, that connection to each other and building outwards. Um, into the world, right? We grow outwards.

We don't kind of grow inwards and, and constricted. We need to grow out and expand. And I think that means being connected and interconnected to one another. And so, concretely, like if you're moving kind of from the more abstract into the concrete, like what does that mean for some actors? Right. And for me, it's like, okay, well, let's think about what are some micro learning things that can happen in a particular setting?

Like what's the, the single question that we allow ourselves to sink into and have some dialogue or what's the little micro modeling piece where we just try one skill. Our one thing together, and we practice that before we kind of get into the complexity. I think that a lot of times in education, we're afraid to slow down.[00:14:00] 

Because we feel the pressures, the urgency of everything that's needed. But I think when we start to see that, um, a lot of the small moments. Um, really are a component of the larger, we can kind of let go of some of that, that urgency and anxiety. And we can trust that the small things are going to build upon one another, um, and that it's worth slowing down. It's worth reflecting, having dialogue, being able to talk to one another and interconnect in our learning. 

Olivia: I think too, you're reminding me so much of, um, research that I've been digging deeply into with teachers around collective efficacy and the effect size, the power of that idea of growing together and building the knowledge together.

And collective efficacy has a 1.57 effect size of it's one of the highest ways that we see success in [00:15:00] learning. And when I say learning, it doesn't matter whether you're a grown-up or a child. And so that to me also so much of what you are speaking to has, as you've said, copious amounts of research to have your back with all of this beautiful vision that you're creating.

Gwyneth: Yeah, it's, it is cool. I mean, I like Hattie's work and I like looking at like all the effect sizes and the practices that are going to be most impactful for us as learners. Um, and I think sometimes it can feel really complex and like a little daunting, right? For educators to be like, Oh my gosh, how am I going to get all these things in place?

Like, how do I think about this? And so that's where I start to, kind of attach these practices that are based in science to the, to the power of my metaphor because my brain can hold on to that, right? Yes. It, it, uh, decreases the cognitive load of complexity. And that's really important for us to be thinking [00:16:00] about when we think about professional learning for educators because we're all learners.

And yes, our jobs are complex and the world is complex. But, um, I think that, uh, it's not that we should be afraid to grapple with complex things. It's that, uh, I think that we can come to a point where we're thinking about how simplicity can help lead us into complexity and through complexity in ways that don't feel like we're constantly drinking from a fire hose.

Olivia: Yeah, I, I've lived it and I know it does not feel good. And so then let's shift to another pattern. What about ebbs and flows? 

Gwyneth: Yeah. So actually, um, I think the, the drinking from a fire hose for me is like, okay, everyone says that in professional learning, like you go into a room, they're like, oh my gosh, this is like, we're drinking from a fire hose.

Honestly, I always think, um, And so as a designer of professional learning, and I think this is actually, I actually, people talk a lot about, um, andragogy or the [00:17:00] characteristics of adult learners and pedagogy characteristics of young people and learning as being these really binary things. I actually don't find a lot of light or distance between these two things.

I agree. Meaningful learning or relevant learning is important to all learners. Um, I think a lot of the, the science of learning shows that actually these things are true for learners of any age. So when I say educators or learners, like all of these are really interchangeable, I think. Um, so that idea of drinking from a fire hose, I start to think about, okay, what can the wave pattern teach us about?

The volume of learning that we're trying to kind of ingest. Right. Um, and the cool thing about waves is that they are an oscillation between high frequency, high energy at a more low frequency kind of swing into, um, and so you can kind of see that in the wave [00:18:00] pattern, um, and you can think about, okay, what does that mean for me as a learner?

Well, we can't always be operating at the high frequency, high capacity space. Like we just, you know, our performance falls right off. Like there's tons of research that shows that you can't operate in that space. And that you have to, um, move into rest space. Yeah. This is true for, you know, athletics. And this is also true for us as, you know, um, you know, in the cognitive space of learning.

Um, So, I think that waves really teach us that we have to really pay attention to the oscillation, the um, ebb and flow of learning. And concretely, what this means for me is that I don't wait for reflection or rest till the end of my long chunk of learning. 

Olivia: So good. Yes. 

Gwyneth: So, like, you know, you don't have to, well, what happens when you do that?

Well, first of all, you're running, running, running high capacity. You get to that space where you're going [00:19:00] to like open up and do a little rest, but you've run out of time. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Gwyneth: Do you reflect? No. And so oftentimes, I mean, I love the workshop model, but you know, the, it does sometimes feel a bit constricting to be like, okay, I'm going to model something, we're going to practice it and then we'll reflect.

Right. What does it mean to reflect along the way? What does it mean to create space along the way of our learning so that we can have more of an oscillating pattern? Um, to our learning, and so I think about literally centering reflection in like the literal middle of the learning experience. So what could that look like perhaps?

Olivia: I love that idea. And I also am thinking to myself of autonomy for the students 

Gwyneth: to 

Olivia: be able to say to the facilitator of learning, I need to pause. And so I could see that coming individually, I could see it coming in partnerships. And so what is going to require of educators is [00:20:00] probably to plan less content that has to be covered.

and more space for students to practice that repetition and that reflective nature. But Gwyneth, what this also opens up, teachers are exhausted by the end of the day often and This puts a lot of agency in students hands to, to inform their learning journey. And that's what I appreciate about this as well.

It's, it's a partnership in learning, um, and that the students are co creating what is happening. So I, I see that. 

Gwyneth: I often talk about it as a designer and I think anybody who's designing learning is, you know, it's 50% preparation, and 50 percent presence. Yes. Once you've reached 50 percent of preparation, stop, you know, like don't, you can't prepare every [00:21:00] micro moment because you're not in the room with your learners.

50 percent of what happens is what happens in the moment. And so you need to be able to be fully present. Right? Um, and I think that having presence with your learners allows you to do just what you're talking about, which is to, to notice, to invite that space in where it's needed, to adjust and think about, okay, here's where I need to move.

If you've prepared so much that you haven't anticipated that or, um, that you're continuing to prepare, you're like in the preparation mindset, even when you're in the, should be in the presence mindset. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it could be. You know, it can be really difficult to kind of center yourself in the moment and so, you know, moving from that future brain and planning brain into like the presence I think is really important.

Um, and I think thinking about ourselves as learners with our other, you know, with the kids or with our other professional learners who are surrounding us. [00:22:00] Um, you need that presence in order to kind of move into that space. 

Olivia: And I also think about the idea of the fractal and the fractals that metaphor has fascinated me for a long, long time.

It was introduced to me by Lucy West and Toni Cameron and master coaching Institute with metamorphosis. And it made me feel so powerful, um, and that I could actually have autonomy. And it wasn't, it didn't matter where I was in the world, what school district I was with, whomever I had as a principal, I could have, um, some power and the ripple effects in that fractalized system.

And so even you just said, you know, I, I appreciate the workshop model and It waits for us to zip up kids backpacks or their minds at the end in a debrief, and so how could we rethink that? And that idea of a fractal is, [00:23:00] and I'd love for you to speak more to this, but in my mind, it's that we can have a ripple effect above and below us, wherever we're falling in the fractal system of the culture that we're living within.

So how do you see the fractal? 

Gwyneth: Yeah, I see the fractal as kind of, um, every micro-moment is modeling. So, like, let's just use the workshop model, right? Right. Like, we are thinking about it as being these compartmentalized things of, here's the model, here's the practice, here's the reflection. But actually, what if, what if it's more like an ecosystem?

What if those things are more blended? And what if in the very moment, You know that I am pausing to ask you a question. I am modeling curiosity, right? So I think that we it's it's helpful to have those structures I think uh, you know, we've kind of craved those structures to help us understand the world and design But I think we also can't be so [00:24:00] tightly held to them that we're not remembering You know that these things are actually much more inter, interdependent.

So I think fractals help us remember that the pattern of fractals is that the smallest, the way something is at its smallest level is reflected at its largest scale. I think this is really important for educators and leaders to be thinking about, um, because The weight of kind of who we are in any given moment does ripple out.

Sure it does. Into the learning culture, um, and the culture of our learners is going to ripple out into its own places, right? There's constantly that, um, interaction. And so, um, I think the fractal. Really asks us to think about how every kind of thing that we do, um, has an influence. I think in particular, um, it's important for education leaders to be thinking [00:25:00] about the fractal pattern because it really is about systems.

Um, and so how do systems scale? How does culture scale? How do practices scale? A lot of times, um, you know, We'll be interacting with some of these practices. Let's just take some of Hattie's like teaching practices, right? Yeah, how do we scale these practices and this is and um, I think that sometimes we think okay Well, we just got to teach them.

We got to know the research We're gonna go ahead and engage in professional learning and then we just got to do it But really, we kind of miss that actually we need to, as adult learners, experience things as well in order for them, for us to really internalize them, right? Right. And to really become a part of our practice.

And so how are we practicing those same things within our own learning context, like in our team learning, in our professional learning, in our district wide learning. So, um, you know, we can't simply say, here are the things that should be happening in [00:26:00] classrooms. We actually have to have all of these kinds of best practices happening throughout an entire system.

And that's the fractal nature of learning. 

Olivia: Yeah, I've been living this pretty in depth with the coaching labs that I'm serving and facilitating this year of where it was a coach that prompted me and it was in the beginning of the year and she said, I hope it's okay. I did my own assignment and she sent an email and it was like, yes, it is fabulous.

You did your own assignment. Thank you for being independent and doing that. And it prompted me now to tuck into every lab experience in that prebrief and the, I would say the priming before the lab happens, but then. The on the ground pre brief work before the coaching event is going to happen. If the coach is facilitating a meeting with a teacher, we do that work together first.

So we can think of, ooh, that was a [00:27:00] lot more time than we anticipated, or we needed to reflect here, or what different inputs do we need to include? And I think it's also important you do your own assignment independently, but also with thought partners. Because that's where the work starts to have that ripple effect and different perspectives, lending themselves different backgrounds, and I think that's what makes our work really rich if we take the time to do that.

Gwyneth: Yeah, and I think it's important, you know, like you said, it's not just the, the, the leader or the teacher who is the kind of space that the fractal come, you know, the fractal learning comes from. It's every human in that in that system, right? And so, um, you know, I think again we start to compartmentalize I think I see this in particular in secondary classrooms or in higher ed spaces or even honestly in organizational learning where Um, we're like, okay, this is the learning for this group, but it's not learning for this group Yeah, and I I'm all about [00:28:00] differentiation.

I think we do need differentiation. There's a lot of things that um You know, I might need to really learn how to become proficient using a spreadsheet. Um, but I feel like what we kind of lose sometimes when we compartmentalize our silo learning too much is that there's always something to be learned from a different perspective.

Yes. If the system is too closed, it stagnates. And any scientist, you know, or biologist will tell you that there has to be some openness to a system. There has to be a way for things to flow. And so, um, creating those open systems in our learning is really important too in our organization. So how are we getting, like, do we always have to have whole group learning on everything?

No, 

Olivia: no. 

Gwyneth: Um, but It's really important for us to have spaces of dialogue between learners who are working on different things. Um, and I think that, uh, is particularly true. [00:29:00] Um, for spaces where we're working with. The same students, right? So I'm the math teacher and I'm receiving some professional development.

Um, and then I never have the opportunity to talk to a different department and learn from the, uh. English teacher, um, but we're working with the same learners. What are we missing out on? You know, um, so the interdependence of the system or the flow within the system starts to stagnate. And so I think it's really important to, to be conscious of that and to also create intentional spaces, um, for those, that flow of learning to occur.

Olivia: That's where I think learning labs are our money, because whether it's triad labs, whether it's coaching principal, I had the gift of being mentored by Sam Bennett and with lab, the lab model and at the high school level, we really made sure that we [00:30:00] had a diverse team. Population of teachers and so in one lab, there were global studies teachers.

Uh, we had science labs and so all of these people and it was fascinating for ELA teachers to see how their same students lived within the. AP U. S. history class and how kids that really were not showing up in their full selves to ELA class, they were loving the AP U. S. history. And so it gave that teacher a very different perspective on that particular child.

So I think that idea of labs, it's also, we grow together. 

Olivia: And it can be a common thread that we're studying. PLC we know can also support that work and conversations grounded in students. I'd love, uh, before we wrap, I I'd love for you to speak to, I mean, you're doing this work with all different organizations.

What are you finding [00:31:00] that's going really well that we could learn from you and how you're navigating this? 

Gwyneth: Um, I'm finding that we are as educators still trying to break free of how we experienced education as young people. 

Olivia: So true. Yeah. 

Gwyneth: And whether we're kind of like really, really conscious of it or not, think about the moment that maybe you lost some wonder, some awe in the world.

And as an adult, often people will think back to going to school and their first experiences at school. Um, and while all of us educators are working so incredibly hard to change things, I think sometimes we forget that the experiences we had as young people [00:32:00] still heavily impact us today. And so if we want to be thinking about, um, some of the ways to tap into that change that we want, I think we have to think about The ways that we were able to do that as young people and, um, Because I think that's going to help us get there.

I think having experiences created for us as much as possible as adults that allow us to tap back into that wonder now is super important too. So I think creativity and the arts and, you know, um, engaging with nature. I think these are sometimes things that people feel like are a little bit like nice to have, or we don't actually have time for those things in the adult learning space, but I think that there.

Is a lot of power in being able to tap back into a sense of wonder and curiosity as an adult by Reflecting on those things and also having folks hold the space for us to do [00:33:00] so. 

Olivia: Yeah 

Gwyneth: So I am learning that adults need a lot of the same things that we want for kids and that if they don't get to experience those things or reflect on those things. What those all those big dreams we have for project-based learning or you know Integrating nature and into learning more all these amazing things like if we can't experience these things deeply as adults that I don't think those Changes are sustainable Because I think we we need to live them before we can really Bring them to life whoever our learners might be and so we need to kind of create that for each other 

Olivia: Yeah.

And I think some of this creation can happen outside of the walls of the school buildings. And that's, you know, the people I love to hang out with the most are [00:34:00] artists and musicians and, um, because they roll a little bit differently often. And so, um, I have found for myself, especially I think it started during COVID, I needed to find more purpose.

And that was one reason I launched the podcast because I need to connect with other people. And that has definitely served that purpose. It's made me grow so much as a human. And I I've learned how to do things I never thought possible with editing and even like creating this space. I also work really hard to try to learn.

Um, how to play different instruments. I love to paint. And so, and I think it's fun to do that with people, but there's a lot of power in learning how to do something all by yourself and crying along the process. And, and so, and not giving up. And so I think as adults, we have to keep trying new things.

Gwyneth: It's like that co-, like that coach, the person you were [00:35:00] coaching that you talked about earlier. Is it okay that I did this? Is it, do I have permission to do this? I think we've been so trained to wait for permission. So true. In our learning. That's it. That we've, we kind of lose the like, lose the, uh, The self permission we need to like, just go to just try something and be okay with it, you know?

Um, so I love that it's about exploring that learning just really deeply in ourselves first. Like, what do I want to learn? What do I want to enjoy? And I think it really can start there. Like, what's the thing that gives you joy most, um, outside of your space as an educator, a leader, leaning into that and like feeling the joy of learning.

Yourself and giving yourself permission to do so because you're worth it. 

Olivia: And if you, just like you're saying, if we, if everything is modeling it from its most micro level, then how are we expecting our students to have that agency if we are [00:36:00] not having the agency for ourselves, like we don't want them waiting for permission, so we need to stop it as grownups and you, you.

You know, if I had to name right now, someone that's inspiring me, it's you, Gwyneth, because of the way you are, I'm not even going to say pushing back. It's re envisioning. It's re envisioning possibility for how we move forward. And so then I'll ask you, you've named some researchers who inspires you every day to keep doing this.

Gwyneth: Well, right now, so I kept hearing from folks that, um, my work was reminding them of Robin Wall Kimmerer's work, like, um, she wrote, uh, Braiding Sweetgrass, and I, um, she is a, a botanist, an indigenous botanist, and she It's really inspiring me right now. So once I'd been told that a couple of times, I was like, Oh gosh, this person sounds like, um, somebody who I should [00:37:00] really, uh, engage with.

And so I've been listening to her, um, Braiding Sweetgrass, you know, kind of as a, um, a morning ritual for myself to be in the shower honestly, but like, I'm like, I just want to be in here listening to this so that I can kind of soak it in. Um, I think for me also, I've given myself permission to spend time writing poetry.

I let go of that a long time ago because it wasn't serious work. Um, and that was honestly one of the first things that I had to push through in order to, to be showing up in my professional space in this way. so much. Because I felt like I, I was just waiting for permission for somebody to say, it was okay to be writing poetry in your professional learning.

It's okay to talk about your relationship with nature in this space. And we have been, you know, culturally not experienced those things in a lot of spaces. And so giving yourself [00:38:00] permission to show up in those ways, I think it's a really big step. And for me, I'm just constantly trying to kind of. Think about how do I do that for myself?

And then how do I share that in my writing and my work? Um, and I think that that is really inspiring me is just to like be in practice with myself and that. 

Olivia: I love that. What do we have to look forward to coming from you in the world? 

Gwyneth: Um, well, I, I'm right now working, um, Right now I have an article that I've written and submitted a publication for the Learning Professional, um, that will be coming out in the spring.

Yay! I just got my, uh, email that said, yes, we would love to work with you and hear from our editors. So I'm super excited about that. Um, I'm also working on a book, um, and I'm very excited about that. Um, actually. I currently have a sub stack, [00:39:00] um, called Starting Small. It's beautiful. It's under my name, Gwyneth Pagan.

And so you can kind of see some of my more reflective writing along, um, patterns in nature and some of the poetry that I've kind of written along to go alongside it, um, with the intention of having some sort of reading that you can use like individually or with your team. Just open that space for reflection.

Um, and conversation. So, um, those are some of the things that I'm working on right now. Um, and hopefully I'll just be able to keep leaning into this work that just gives me so much joy. Um, cause I, um, I want that to be more and more a part of my life and everyone's lives, right? I want people to be able to seek permission to do that for themselves.

Olivia: So good and you brought a lot of joy into my life and your poetry I find very inspiring. And it actually helps me open up to be more creative, um, in every part of the day and yeah, and that's what I [00:40:00] appreciate so much about you. Um, I will put links to all of the things Gwyneth in the show notes and also the, uh, vast researchers and pieces of research you mentioned.

Um, thank you for everything you're doing to make life more purposeful for our young people, but for also for the grownups that are facilitating their learning. So thank you, Gwyneth. 

Gwyneth: Absolutely. I'd love to, if it's okay, to leave with a poem. 

Olivia: Oh, please. That's a perfect way. 

Gwyneth: I kind of have to do that in every, in every space that I'm in now.

Olivia: I would love that. 

Gwyneth: This poem is called Small Things. 

Olivia: Oh, I love this poem. 

Gwyneth: I feel I no longer have the time to know small things. The curl, the snail, the single violet. I can't slow time like I used to, when I pinched clay with my fingers, when I cracked the ice of puddles, when I muddied the lake bottom, and watched as it slowly became clear.[00:41:00] But it is clear to me now that poems are small things. And they take time to be known. So beautiful. So thank you all. I hope that having a little poem today brings a little light and joy into your world. 

Olivia: Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background.

You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts, or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Gwyneth Hagen, for taking the time to discuss how we can shift education from a factory model to a forest model; using patterns in nature as metaphors.

Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. How is your school or district creating space for interconnected learning systems that honor all [00:42:00] learners? Tune in every Monday for the best research about coaching and teaching strategies. You can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care.

And stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday, where I'll share how I applied what I learned from the guests in schools that week. See you then!