Schoolutions: Curious Educators. Evidence-Based Strategies. Classrooms Where Every Child Thrives.

S2 E25: The Content Shop: Kate and Maggie Roberts Are Putting Professional Learning Back into Teachers’ Hands

• Season 2 • Episode 25

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Innovative thought partners Kate and Maggie Roberts share their newest venture to put professional learning back into teachers’ hands via The Content Shop.   They offer simple, practical, and bite-sized tools to optimize our teaching.

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When teachers, coaches, administrators, and families grow together, they create schools where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged, supported, and ready to thrive.

Schoolutions - S2 E25: The Content Shop: Kate and Maggie Roberts Are Putting Professional Learning Back into Teachers’ Hands
[00:00:00] Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl, and I have the privilege of being in conversation with a powerhouse couple today, Kate and Maggie Roberts. I have been intrigued and inspired by their newest venture to put professional learning back into teachers’ hands. Kate and Maggie are educators who work to make teaching more effective for students and sustainable for teachers.

[00:00:36] Olivia: They provide powerful, practical strategies and structures that help educators maximize their time and effort. Clear, important, ready-to-use content alongside big ideas and questions that can transform our work. Their books, DIY Literacy, A Novel Approach, and Falling In Love with Close Reading, have been a huge influence on shaping my beliefs and practices around literacy instruction.

[00:01:01] Olivia: Welcome, welcome, welcome, Kate and Maggie. 

[00:01:05] Kate & Maggie: Yay. We are so happy to be here, Olivia. Thank you. What a bright spot in the day, the week, the year.  This is perfect!

[00:01:13] Olivia: I'm so excited and I kick off every episode by asking guests who an inspiring educator is from their life. Would you share with listeners?

[00:01:21] Kate: So I was thinking about a school leader that I work with, uh, Gail Dahling-Hench in Madison, Connecticut. And I think about her because she is a district leader who is able to really, really listen in both directions. Both to like the teachers in the classrooms and their concerns, to the kids in her district, to the parents in her district, and then also to the research, to the information, to the bigger ideas that are floating around all of that. And she just always steps up and gets her teachers what they need in a really impressive and inspiring way. 

[00:02:00] Olivia: Maggie, how about you? 

[00:02:02] Maggie: Um, I want to shout out, uh, Greg Michie. Greg Michie is a Chicago-based educator who spent his early years teaching at a school in the Back of the Yards in Chicago and spent some time there and, uh, then spent about a decade teaching at Illinois State University with pre-service teachers.

[00:02:23] Maggie: And in 2012, returned back to his school in the Back of the Yards to continue teaching. And if that wasn't enough, right, the daily grind of teaching through the pandemic. This year, the school had an opening. They needed someone to teach K-8 media literacy class. And he did it. And he is doing these micro-reflections, this micro-journaling, uh, every day on his Facebook page.

[00:02:55] Maggie: So you need to go check it out. Um, and I feel like I don't even need to unpack why it's so inspiring because there's so many levels of inspiration there. I met Greg when I was 18 years old in a pre-service teacher program myself in Chicago. And so to see someone with that amount of time in the field, um, reinvent himself and also stay very tethered to the core beliefs that he had over 20 years ago when I intersected with him is pretty outstanding, and I hope to be a sliver of what he brings to this profession every day.

[00:03:38] Kate: What's so awesome about his micro-journaling, too, is that he has all this experience, all this wisdom, all this knowledge. And now he's back in the classroom. You'd think he'd be pretty awesome, and he is, but what he shares are all the hard moments. The places where he feels like he's falling short. The places where he is like, this is just a very hard job. It’s so tethered to reality. It's really beautiful. 

[00:03:59] Maggie: It's very affirming, you know, in terms of, uh, what his voice is doing in our educator community online, which is, um, not ignoring the hard stuff and just walking side by side with you through the hard stuff. Right? So not getting bogged down, but not ignoring it. And I think that that is a perfect thing to have on our social media feeds right now.

[00:04:25] Olivia: I'm with you, and that's actually the intent of this podcast, is to call out and name hardships, name issues that I'm experiencing - I'm seeing in public education or listeners reach out and say, help!  I try to seek out solutions-finders, asset-based folks that are just out there trying to make it work.

[00:04:47] Olivia: And that's exactly why I wanted to have both of you today. The issue I'm seeing all the time, which is really bizarre because it's this weird precipice of being a consultant and trying to provide professional learning to school districts, and yet feeling like sometimes the journey and the decision-making is not in teachers’ hands at all or even enough.

[00:05:09] Olivia: And so I feel like too often teachers have very little choice and voice in where school districts choose to go with professional learning that they are expected to participate in and commit to. And let's face it, it is so difficult to try to build collective efficacy as a learning community.

[00:05:28] Olivia: All teachers have insane professional capital, but it cannot be acted upon if they have no idea about the why behind the district choices. So there's all the problems. We'll get that out of the way, but yet here you are, beacons of light. Um, I'm going to quote right off your website, people over programs, teacher-centered professional development, um, and you both are innovative, and you've created something called The Content Shop that we're going to talk about today and unpack together.

[00:06:04] Olivia: I'm so excited. So, Kate, in your words - I love your reels, and I believe you were recently at a trampoline park - 

[00:06:12] Kate: I was. Yes. Yes. Where else would you do a video about education? Yeah, it's a metaphor for how it feels all the time.

[00:06:20] Olivia: But your words exactly were: I think it's time for teachers to choose their own professional learning. So, Kate, start us off. Why did you and Maggie create The Content Shop, and what shifts are you both having about access to professional learning for educators?

[00:06:38] Kate: So, I think one of the things that Maggie and I have been noticing over the past, I mean, we've been noticing it for a while, it's always been true. But since the pandemic, it feels like it is, uh, more than an irritation. Right? It's a real problem in the work that we do, where sometimes professional development is coming from outside of the teacher and their classroom.

[00:07:05] Kate: Right? That they are being, again, like you said, told what the topic is, told what the goal is, maybe even told why. But it's not coming necessarily all the time in all places from a teacher-directed need. From a sense of, I'm in the classroom. I’m doing this every day. Here are the problems that I'm having. And I think there was a way that in the past PD could still work because the job was doable enough kind of that people could be like, yeah, let me go to this workshop and hear this information on a topic that doesn't really fit what I need, but, I'll take a half day to go learn about this thing.

[00:07:45] Maggie: Yeah. And you could see the threads, right? You could see how this could connect. 

 

[00:07:50] Kate: Yeah. Right. Like, and I think teachers have the bandwidth to be able to meet us halfway, right? Where, like, okay, this may not fit what I need exactly right now to solve the problems that I'm facing in my teaching that my kids are having with the learning that we're trying to experience together in the room.

[00:08:05] Kate: But now, of course, no one has the bandwidth, or very few people have the bandwidth, right? People are at capacity. They’re beyond capacity. And I think the the tolerance for sitting in a professional development session that isn't meeting my needs exactly. And my needs right now is minimal. Right? So we started thinking about, like, what are some ways - now we don't have the information on everything about literacy instruction.

[00:08:33] Kate: Right? But we have a few lanes that we have some built expertise around, some real confidence of not only work that's like really powerful for kids in getting them more independent and engaged and sophisticated as readers and writers and talkers and thinkers, right? But also how to solve some of the problems that make teaching so difficult.

[00:08:52] Kate: But we were like, how do we get that information more directly to classroom teachers, to literacy coaches, to school district leaders- 

[00:09:01] Maggie: Who are also, in a way, at hundred percent capacity, right? The other thing like, too, is that we are a system. There's every player is involved here from. Uh, the lack of, you know, sub coverage to the district superintendent.

[00:09:16] Maggie: We are all here after the past three years reaching for playbooks that we've used in education to support our teachers forever, and all of a sudden, because of what we all have just been through and continue to go through, um, that playbook isn't as efficient or effective. And I also think that, um, everybody at the table within this system, in their own way, is at or beyond capacity.

[00:09:51] Kate: So we kept looking for what are some ways that we can offer up PD that's easier to access. Quicker to digest. Do you know what I mean? Like that can just give you some information that you can run with. Our struggle was how do we do that in a way that also works for our life, that we were working full-time, two kids, all that.

[00:10:09] Kate: And so we realized that if we kind of combined something that has always been a strength of ours, which is the idea that, like, you can come to us, and we can have a sheath of papers with some Sharpies and just start making some stuff, you know, and go do it. 

[00:10:24] Kate: Or we can do a quick workshop that we learned how to do certainly over the pandemic. It's no frills. It's not beautiful lighting, right? But it's, here's some content, here's some information that you might need about, say, how to get independent reading going or how to help kids think more thoughtfully about their reading. Or, or, or, and so we started coming up with The Content Shop.

[00:10:44] Kate: Right? That we want to empower teachers to be able to identify, ask for, and get the professional learning that they need.

[00:10:54] Olivia: And I will say, I keep hearing this term parallel practice, and as you were both just sharing the journey to get to The Content Shop, I continue to think of our students and how they sometimes feel forced to ride alongside someone else's agenda for them. And everything we want for our students is to have that choice and voice and ownership over their learning experience, and yet we don't match that always for teachers.

 

[00:11:27] Olivia: Right? So I feel like The Content Shop is such an opportunity, and yeah, there's been opportunities for teachers to go and travel for conferences. This is so different in the way it's immediately accessible, and it doesn't have to be perfect. It's good enough. And that's where we're all riding these days.

[00:11:47] Olivia: We're all trying to be good enough, um, or mostly good. That's my other favorite. I'm mostly good.

[00:11:54] Kate: I like that - mostly good. I mean, we think about Maggie and I during the pandemic, got slightly addicted to TikTok, maybe…just a little too into it. You know, it sucked up a lot of our time. 

[00:12:05] Kate: But it's a great example if you think about education because, like on TikTok right now, there's so many educators who are offering up their solutions, their structures, their systems for problems that their colleagues and they are facing. In that kind of way of just, I don't need to have a studio. I don't need to have anything. I just can have my phone held up in front of my face in a trampoline park. Here's three things you can do to solve this big problem you're having in your teaching and in your classroom.

[00:12:32] Olivia: Get it. And and the coolest thing is your thought partners. And boy, do we need thought partners more than ever in this work. Someone that is no judgment take risks. I'm going to try this. If it's an epic fail, I'm going to still report back, and we're going to try something else. And I think that's an incredible aspect of The Content Shop.

[00:12:53] Olivia: That idea you're welcoming folks to say, look, what are your needs? Please talk to us. So I want a little bit more. Maggie, can you tell us what are the different menu options with The Content Shop and how do people get a hold of you? I will definitely put links in the show notes as well.

[00:13:11] Maggie: So I'm going to start with, um, a real example of how our professional learning support can go in the middle of a day in the middle of a busy school. And it really served for my inspiration for building out The Content Shop. So, you're a teacher, you walk in, you see that, oh, I, I'm covered for a class period to go talk to Maggie on nonfiction reading.

[00:13:40] Maggie: Awesome. Class periods are, you know, maybe 38 minutes in a middle school. The coverage comes maybe 12 minutes into class. The teacher runs to the space across the campus where we're meeting it's, and they arrive kind of, you know, out of breath, but light in their eyes and. . they're like, I got 15 minutes. 

[00:14:04] Olivia: Yeah, 

[00:14:05] Maggie: I'm like, absolutely. Right?

[00:14:06] Maggie: And kind of going back to Kate. I got a stack of white computer paper, I've got Sharpies, and I'm like, lay it on me. What's going on? What do you need? Right? And they are in the middle of a nonfiction unit, and we're thinking about, uh, summarizing nonfiction. And, uh, we just look at each other, and we're like, that's really hard to teach.

[00:14:24] Maggie: And we're like, yep. It's really hard to teach, and it's really hard for kids to do. Yep. It's really hard for kids to do sit down. Go to the bathroom, come back, have a cup of coffee, and I'm just going to sit here and just list out three different ways that kids could access your teaching on summarizing nonfiction because I didn't run across campus to get to this room, and I'm not going back to a room of 27 eighth graders.

[00:14:53] Maggie: And, that is really what served the inspiration for The Content Shop; is sometimes those were just the best one-on-ones with teachers. And we were thinking together about how to replicate that. And so one feature on The Content Shop are these Content Quick Sheets. So think about them as those blank pieces of white computer paper with Sharpie markers saying, what are three different ways that kids could summarize nonfiction depending on how their brain, uh, intakes, uh, and processes information?

[00:15:25] Maggie: What, um, what are like three different levels of thesis statements around literature that build in complexity that you could use from 5th grade to 10th grade? 

[00:15:34] Olivia: Wow. 

[00:15:35] Maggie: And it all tends to be just very analog. A Content Quick Sheet, which is like, take this content, and then you can fit it into however you roll as a teacher.

[00:15:49] Maggie: You could turn that into a slide deck. You could turn that into a story. You could turn that into a bunch of series of small group lessons or centers, right? So really thinking about this is some content, some curriculum that I need that I then on my run back to the classroom from across campus can say, ah, I bet like 80% of my kids could really use this way to summarize nonfiction.

[00:16:15] Maggie: And I also have two other things in my back pocket that I could just gather kids quickly together and say, I think this might work for you. I think this might work for you. So the Content Quick Sheets are one of the big features on The Content Shop.

[00:16:27] Kate: And one of the ways you can think about it is right now, if you go onto our website, so basically, you find it at kateandmaggie.com, right? And you can click on membership and all of that. And right now, if you go to membership, there's three levels. We have one for free resources, and then we have a level one and a level two that are a subscription. One’s $5 a month, and the other one's $7 a month. Um, and so the idea is that you enter where you want. If you want to go up in membership, great.

[00:16:53] Kate: Right now, if you go on, you're going to find sort of a hodgepodge of some stuff because we're just starting. We threw some stuff on there. But what we're hoping very soon, and we're starting to get ideas from people online, through social media, it's really exciting, and the teachers we work with. We want it to be as responsive to educators as possible, that we hear from everybody else what they need, and then we produce quick content sheets.

[00:17:18] Kate: Video workshops, other kinds of materials based on that. So the levels are great cause you can kind of choose where you want to get into. You can come check out the free resources first to see sort of how analog we mean when we say analog. 

[00:17:31] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:17:32] Kate: How imperfect, we mean when we say imperfect. 

[00:17:35] Kate: Right? And see if it's your vibe, your style. And then you can kind of choose where you want to go from there. 

 

 

[00:17:40] Maggie: So, yeah, like, I think the three categories kind of think the Content Quick Sheets, which is, like, I just need to download the content. Quick workshops. Like, I had a teacher, um, actually a district leader that I was working with last week that said, “You know what's so great about the quick workshops on The Content Shop? I just had one browser open, and I was listening to Kate. And then I had the other browser open on Instacart where I was getting my groceries together, and I could just hear the workshop as I was doing life.”

[00:18:22] Maggie: And I'm like, that is really, really an important piece of making sure that that busy teachers and district leaders can multitask and also feel like we're grabbing on to some stable, sustainable content and tips. I think the third feature is that we also will put up a bunch of micro-skill progressions that, uh, became something that we really got on about when we wrote our book together, DIY Literacy. And so there will be also tools like that up.

[00:18:44] Olivia: Can you define what a micro-progression is in your vision? 

[00:18:48] Kate: So we say micro because there are lots of macro progressions out there in the world, and so we don't want to get it twisted that we've invented this thing. We have not, right? We've drawn from inspiration and resources from other places, but we think about a micro-progression as being like a very easy-to-follow student-facing guide for like one of the, you know, priority skills or priority standards of your units.

[00:19:11] Kate: Um, or a differentiated skill for a kid that helps everyone have a common language and a common sense of what growth looks like along skill lines. So like, if I'm working with a kid and, you know, they're reading, and they're talking about characters in the books they're reading and uh, I'm like, “Hey, tell me what you're thinking about the character.”

[00:19:31] Kate: And I have a 10th grader who's like, “He's sad.”

[00:19:35] Kate: I'm like, “yes. That's true, right?”

[00:19:38] Kate: And I have that feeling, that really familiar feeling as a teacher where I'm like, I know I want you to do more than that. I know you can do more than that, but I don't necessarily know how to guide you to do more without giving you the answer. Coaching you into the answer. Uh, begging, cajoling, bribing you into doing more sophisticated work. A micro-progression basically says, if your kid's here, here's the next step for them.

[00:19:59] Olivia: Perfect. I want to just circle back to something that I'm also thinking about: sub coverage, and you've already mentioned it. It is so hard for school districts to get sub coverage, even if everything aligns perfectly. Maggie, I'm picturing that teacher hauling across a campus, right? And having 15 minutes.

[00:20:21] Olivia: I'm also thinking, yes, we want to still maintain our on-the-ground consulting. That's not without saying, but there's this beautiful need for teachers to just sit quietly in their classroom and not have to worry about a sub coming to relieve them during a prep and really using their prep to then log on to The Content Shop.

[00:20:42] Olivia: So there's that accessibility and peace because it's really hard to learn and process when you're in that fight or flight mode of bells and coverage. Um, so I think, yes, on-the-ground consulting is the bee’s knees, and yet we have to get smarter and more efficient with options we're offering. And that's something else The Content Shop really does offer. 

 

[00:21:04] Maggie: Yeah. As we're, you know, kind of building it out at the level two tier, folks will get audio notes from me. Which are like, what I would say in that small room while we're, you know, where the heat is on way too hot. And it's like, alright, what is this? How would I use it? How do I know how to match kids to it?

[00:21:26] Maggie: How could I share it with my grade level or department? And we're going to end here because we are going to make sure that you do have time to run back to your classroom and go to the bathroom and talk to a teacher that you need to talk to before you go back and teach. 

[00:21:40] Kate: I actually, I want to revise the educator. Not that I'm saying Gail isn't the educator who inspires me, but I want to just add on to that and say the educators that inspire me are the ones who show up to my PD sessions exhausted, hot, not having used the bathroom, not eating, not getting the coffee they need, and still somehow are able to be open and professional and take in the information as best as they can in that moment. That is inspirational to me.

[00:22:06] Olivia: It is, and I think it speaks to both of you and how you just continue to put it out there for us. And to try to inspire in many, many ways, meeting teachers' needs. And one thing I'll never forget, during the pandemic, like in the thick of, you cannot leave your house safely. Um, I felt so useless when it came to just trying to help teachers, trying to help educators.

[00:22:34] Olivia: And I continued to look at all of your social you were putting out there. You made me laugh. Um, you made me cry happy tears to know I wasn't alone. Your social posts are brilliant in so many ways. So you both are my inspiration when it comes to using Insta and TikTok. I haven't even dabbled with TikTok, so plan on me bugging you about that. 

[00:23:00] Kate: Do it.

[00:23:02] Olivia: How do you use social to connect with teachers? Kate, do you want to tackle that? 

[00:23:06] Kate: So I think, like, I mean one is we've enjoyed it. Do you know what I mean? So that's a big piece of the puzzle is we tend to be media people anyway. We like that stuff. So it, it certainly hasn't been a chore. It's been an easy sort of avenue to be able to just connect. And on some level, I think what social media can do really well when it's used well is it’s a great way to say, Hey, here's what I'm feeling and thinking. Does anyone else feel the same way? Or, here's what I'm seeing. Are there other people who feel the same way? And I think that way of connecting is important for me so that I don't feel alone, you know, of being a consultant can be a lonely business, Olivia, as you and I talked about earlier.

[00:23:45] Kate: Um, you know, being able to say, Hey, here's my thoughts, and have people like chime in is really helpful. Um, and inside of that, the entertainment and solace of that, right, of being able to make jokes and laugh in the midst of chaos. Um, you know, I also think it's been a venue for us to be able to share stuff.

[00:24:04] Kate: Free ideas, free content, free materials, and I think that's really important. We make our living doing consulting, So we have to charge for our services at the same time. You know, I agree with a lot of the educators who talk about how there needs to be much more free resources for teachers. 

[00:24:22] Olivia: I agree too. 

[00:24:23] Kate: Um, and then I think it's the idea of being able to listen and both connect. Here’s what I think. What do, does anyone agree?

[00:24:29] Kate: But then also being able to hear from people, um, and, uh, learn from people who are on the ground. You know, Maggie and I have been out of the classroom for a chunk of time in terms of the daily teaching grind. And so being able to hear what people are struggling with and succeeding around is really, uh, wonderful.

[00:24:49] Olivia: Something that we have in common is being moms to two boys, um, and my sons are 15 and 11, and remind me how old your boys are?

[00:25:00] Maggie: They're eight and six.  

[00:25:01] Kate: They really are. 

[00:25:02] Olivia: It's no joke. 

[00:25:03] Kate: It's no joke. 

[00:25:04] Maggie: It's no joke. 

[00:25:06] Kate: There are a lot of jokes. 

[00:25:02] Olivia: The joke’s on us! 

[00:25:03] Kate: Yeah, there a lot of jokes, but it is no joke.

[00:25:12] Olivia: No. When we're putting our full investment into loving what we do as a career as teachers and educators and also loving this insane caregiving journey.

[00:25:24] Olivia: I think often of, like, is there such thing as balance? I don't know. Um, and so I'm interested just to hear from both of you. How in the world are you balancing everything? I'm sure very carefully, but like, when are you creating all of this content? And just talk to listeners because I don't think there's such thing as balanced these days, but please illuminate for us if you've found it. 

[00:25:48] Kate: I think about it as like I was cleaning the house the other day. And I realized that in cleaning the house, basically, all that happens is you move the mess to a different room. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like there's always an area of the house that's a disaster. And you just try to move that area around, so it's not in the same place or everywhere all the time.

[00:26:07] Kate: And I think that's our work-life balance, right? Like we're, there's always an area that is a disaster. Now, maybe it's friendships, right? Like how cultivating our outside of our family and our lives, friendships is often kind of a dumpster fire. Or maybe it's work one week when the kids are sick, and you know, we're not able to do as much.

[00:26:30] Kate: Like a big piece of it though is that's why like Maggie and I starting this project with the website, we had to commit to it being imperfect. You know what I mean? We had to, or else we can't ever produce any content, and I don't think that would be good for any of us, right? So we'll put stuff out there, but it's going to be messy because our life is kind of messy right now, right? And that balance seems to work okay. 

[00:26:57] Olivia: Maggie, what are your thoughts? 

[00:26:58] Maggie: Well, you know, I, I was thinking, I was in the school district last week and, um, I was, uh, I was a good 30 minutes late. I'm going to put that out there on, on online here. Uh, it's a, it's a wonderful school district. I love them so much. But, you know, Kate was recovering from Covid, and I needed to stick around a little bit just to help get the kids out of the house, uh, to school.

[00:27:21] Maggie: And so it put me behind a little bit, and I walked in, and I said, uh, yeah, I'm I, yeah, just, just on the struggle bus this morning. I'm on the struggle bus, and I'm just sitting here watching balls drop. Right? Just watching them explode and I think that there's so much I love about this profession and working with teachers and working alongside teachers and being in buildings as often as we are because the moment you name exactly the hardship of trying to balance or do all the things, whether it's parenting or caregiving in some way, working full-time, keeping a home, somewhat together.

[00:28:09] Maggie: Building out a business, working on your art or entrepreneurship. 

[00:28:13] Kate: Having a marriage. 

[00:28:14] Maggie: Oh, yep. I mean, just that little piece. I think just naming to a room full of your colleagues, your teachers, about those balls dropping or about real reasons why I just couldn't get there on time. I'm, again, constantly reminded how grateful I am to be a part of this profession.

[00:28:35] Maggie: Because everyone in the room gets it. Everyone gets it. And everyone is just as transparent and vulnerable back. And I think that naming just the, uh, insanely raggedy parts of pulling this beautiful life together for yourself, um, and not masking behind overly polished social media appearances. Feels like a necessity for me, right?

[00:29:05] Maggie: And a necessity for the people around me in both a professional and personal community. 

[00:29:11] Kate: Well, and I think it highlights something that we've known for a long time in education, right? It's like we have to have that sense for everybody that we're in contact with. Our students, teachers, our colleagues, our administrators, our school leaders, like there needs to be that sense of we're all human beings just trying to make it through.

[00:29:27] Kate: And some of us have an easier time of that than others. And when someone's struggling or not able to show up as their perfect self in every area, the more grace and forgiveness and openness, and time that we can give is essential. Especially now. It's like that whole debate where people used to say at school; we’re teaching you to be in the real world, and in the real world, you can't hand anything in late.

[00:29:49] Kate: I'm like, mm, actually, actually, thankfully, in the real world, you can hand in things late, right? You can be 30 minutes late one day. You can be a flawed human being pulled in a bunch of directions. That's a world that I'm excited to lean into and cultivate, right? So we don't have a balance like everybody else, right?

[00:30:16] Olivia: It's a relief. That is a relief to hear. Um, and I also, I think of Sam Bennett's term break the fake of school. And,  right?

[00:30:25] Olivia: And so I continue to just as a mom, um, struggle with that vision you have for your children and then the pushback that comes and how to receive it as they get older. And my older son doesn't love it when I speak of him on the podcast, but I'm going to speak of him in the terms of extreme pride. 

[00:30:48] Olivia: In that, he's learning what to take off of his plate in a really healthy way. I sometimes hear from teachers, or I'll look at Canvas and see certain things are not turned in as they should have been, and I'll have a conversation with him and say, you know, why did you choose to not do this? And he's thinking of, you know, well, I needed to get this done. This is a priority, and then I had to let that go. And I don't even think of it anymore as balls dropping. I think of like smart prioritization.

[00:31:21] Kate: I love that. 

[00:31:22] Olivia: Right?

[00:31:22] Olivia: It's like we're not dropping anything. It's really intentional. Like we're not saying, oh God, this is just falling by the wayside. Nope. It's saying in order to stay above water. I am going to have a whiteboard. I'm going old school here. I have a whiteboard, my little packet of dry-erase markers. I'm in love with my little tiny eraser, and I have a list and certain things, high priority, stay on top of the list, and then things I can erase quickly, like, you know, have breakfast or coffee or shower.

[00:31:56] Olivia: Like those things. I can erase every day and feel like something something's happening.

[00:32:00] Kate: I accomplished something. Yep.

[00:32:02] Olivia: The other tip I got the other day, I had a chat, um, with, uh, coach, I'm struggling with time imbalance, and he said, do a time inventory. And I was like, what's that about? And he said, start a clock every 20 minutes - a timer.

[00:32:18] Olivia: And look and see what you are doing with your time every 20 minutes. And keep a journal, like do it for a week. Over time, see how you're spending your time. Turn all of those little bullets into a list and reorganize them by high priority to low. And then ask yourself the things at the bottom of that list. What could I give for someone else to do, for someone else to tackle that would give me back 10 hours of my life, and what could I do in those 10 hours that would make me happier?

[00:32:51] Olivia: And I thought. Oh my gosh, that's brilliant. So I'm going to give that a go, 

[00:32:56] Kate: That's brilliant. I think that's great because I also think it's that idea of prioritizing, and I do think like one of the shifts that we've had sort of collectively that I hope will nurture and keep going is the idea that. You know, we have to prioritize ourselves and our own wellbeing. Right?

[00:33:12] Kate: It's so easy to look at that list of things I did and list priorities and say, okay, the kids, the job, the house, everything but me is a priority right now. Right? But I have to switch it around. I think we were joking about keeping up everything and keeping up marriage. We haven't able to find like a date night a week.

[00:33:30] Kate: We don't have a babysitter. You know, we're not, we're not able to do that. But we're doing these micro-dates, we just find like 10 minutes so we can sit and really connect or joke around or have a little romantic moment or something. And I think that idea of like a little bit of something being great.

[00:33:47] Kate: Do you know what I mean? That it doesn't have to be like a full night that we get away and connect. That we can do it in 15 minutes if your intention is there. And I think that's true with a lot of things, right? 

[00:33:56] Maggie: I mean, I think that in some way, the way that you just spoke of that, that that is a real essence of The Content Shop, right?

[00:34:02] Maggie: It's like we have a micro-moment. Yeah. We want it to be good, authentic, natural, connective content, whether it's spoken on structures or here's ways to differentiate a thesis statement. You need these real moments that are a fuel.

[00:34:23] Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:24] Maggie: That are going to fill your cup. So then you can go off and do all the 3,000 other things that you're doing.

[00:34:29] Maggie: And so, yeah.

[00:34:31] Kate: Way to bring it around. That was really impressive. I was looking at that full circle there.

[00:34:37] Olivia: Yeah. That was good. So since we're lingering back in the professional world. Thanks, Maggie. I have to ask both of you the implications of AI, ChatGPT, and I am absolutely fascinated by the ChatZero app that recently came out too. You know, you two are all over social, and I'm guessing you've thought about this.

[00:34:56] Olivia: So what are your thoughts about the impacts on, um, teaching middle and high school especially? 

[00:35:02] Maggie: You know, my first instinct is always like, I'm a panic bear. Like, I'm like anything, you know, it's like, what's the weather, panic. What's for dinner? What's in the fridge? Negative disaster.

[00:35:15] Kate: It's not untrue. It's not untrue. This is not. It is; this is not a false statement to share. 

[00:35:19] Maggie: It's just how I'm rooted in this body, in this world.

[00:35:22] Maggie: And so, of course, all this comes out, and I'm like, this is a - this is a disaster. 

[00:35:26] Olivia: It's not good. It's not good. Yep. 

[00:35:28] Maggie: And so what I did do, because I know myself is well, then before you make any big thoughts, right, or permanent thoughts, just see how other people are working with it with kids. And I have to say Twitter especially has been a place because it's, it's just been popping up on my algorithm of teachers and professors doing studies of it with kids.

[00:35:53] Maggie: And it is wonderful. It is wonderful to see how professors and classroom teachers, high school and middle school, are really setting up inquiry for their students to build their own implications or judgements or usage for this type of new technology. And so that's the space I'm in right now is just learning how other teachers and professors are using it as a way to encourage kids to inquire, to learn the purpose of it, the pros and cons of it. The, not morality, but you know, with like the ethics around when you would want to use it. Um, and so I've been using social media to really just study what people in the field close to students are doing.

[00:36:46] Kate: And meanwhile, I just have been thinking like, as soon as it came up, I'm like, well, we just have to get back to basics.

 

[00:36:52] Kate: And I think that's true in general right now, that ChatGPT can be a tool, especially if we bring more of the writing process into our classrooms. That if kids are writing more in front of us, which really they should be doing anyway, because that's where we can coach, that's where it's happening live, that we can actually come in and influence and see what they're doing. Right?

[00:37:12] Kate: Then it's not as much of an issue. It's an outside tool that we can bring into the classroom, as opposed to if I'm assigning writing and kids are doing it all at home. I've lost control now, and I have for a long time. It's already been true. It’s already been true. Yeah. This doesn't change anything about what we know about how kids write outside of school versus inside of school versus inside of school.

[00:37:32] Maggie: And I would say, you know, I and I, I identify as neurodiverse. I am a late diagnosis, fully ADHD. 

[00:37:12] Kate: Love your brain. 

[00:37:32] Maggie: It is so difficult with my impaired working memory. and my beautiful executive dysfunction, that there is nothing more paralyzing to me than a blank page. 

[00:37:51] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:37:52] Maggie: And that has always been true. 

[00:37:54] Maggie: And if I think about this technology as adaptive and helping create an accessible pathway for me into writing, what a great tool to say, here's just a framework that's a bit sterile, and you can tell that it's not totally been written by something with a heartbeat. But it gives me a it gives me a container or a place to start.

[00:38:20] Maggie: And if I think about Kate and I's writing. Kate's always the person who's writing the first draft. Writing the first go, and then there's nothing that I love more but going and rewriting and reshaping and revising and thinking about this technology as a place to then let my strengths shine, where typically they are a place of shame.

[00:38:44] Maggie: I think about all the kids that this could be really helpful for if we think about framing it in all those different ways that we could use it.

[00:38:52] Olivia: So, Maggie, you're walking in my mind. I have an interview with Penny Kittle tomorrow about her newest book, Micro Mentor Texts, and 

[00:39:02] Kate: So exciting!

[00:39:03] Olivia: And I cannot freaking wait to ask her the question around how we could use ChatGPT as an opportunity to develop micro mentor texts that then kids could balance and dive into. So stay tuned. Stay tuned!

[00:39:17] Maggie: So good. Love it. 

[00:39:18] Olivia: So, I’ve got to hear it from Penny. But I'm also thinking of Kate, the whole idea of studying a novel in depth. And I'm working with a humanities team. Where ELA is co-teaching with Global II, and I'm looking forward to interviewing them and their partnership, and I'm calling it a marriage at this point because you really have to, 

[00:39:37] Maggie: It is, yeah.

[00:39:38] Olivia: You have to jive with people, right?

[00:39:39] Olivia: But they've been reading Frankenstein alongside studying the whole idea of AI, and Heather is one of the partners, and she's just steeped the students in reading all different articles around implications. And so that idea of an inquiry stance, our students are our best resource. They know the tech more than many adults at this point. 

[00:40:03] Olivia: I adore asking authors if you could go back and maybe not even go back but add details, revise your books, what would you shift, what would you change? Um, and so I know you co-wrote DIY Literacy, and then, um, Kate A Novel Approach is your own, and then Falling in Love with Close Reading is with Christopher Lehman.

[00:40:24] Olivia: So what would you shift for teachers? 

[00:40:28] Maggie: I'll go with the DIY Literacy. I, I don't know if I would change, but I would want to go and add a layer in just really doubling down on the importance of analog experiences when creating teaching tools for kids in the classroom. Whether that be kids making their own demonstration texts or, um, uh, me creating, oh, here's how you might build a summary in a compare-contrast structure.

[00:41:04] Maggie: Especially post what we've all just been through, which was a time of very intensive digital engagement and learning and receiving content in a way that was really hyper-digital because the whole world shut down. And my aunt has been an art educator for 40 years, and um, she has taught me so much about helping kids be in the material of what they're making, right?

[00:41:36] Maggie: That they sit down, and it's not, I'm going to sit down and make this clay bowl, but I'm going to be in the clay. In the material, seeing what this material does and exposes to process. And I think that when we are building teaching tools for kids, whether it's in the form of - Hey, this is what a great summary could look like, or here is a pathway, a way to level up your thematic statements about a book that you're reading.

[00:42:06] Maggie: Um, I'm really feeling very passionate about doing a lot of that work as offscreen as possible, and as in the paint, as my auntie would say, uh, being in the material to just have that part of our consciousness and brain just be able to have some extended space there.

[00:42:29] Kate: I think that's so important because, like, also, it's not like we're taking screens away.

[00:42:33] Kate: It's not like, it's not like slides are going away. It's not like any of this is going away. So instead, it's about how do we preserve that sort of space. Where it's not on a screen.  I love that. I also would just add stuff too. And I think like, and again, it ties back into the idea of The Content Shop.

[00:42:53] Kate: Yes. That one of the things when we've done DIY Literacy work that we get asked and talked about all the time is just, where are the micro-progressions? Where's the demonstration notebooks? If you could sell that, right? Yes. Like we could use that. I just, that as teachers, we just need more stuff to be able to just use.

[00:43:09] Kate: Not have to always develop, right? Ourselves. And so, that’s sort of what we hope to be offering too. It's almost like those addendums that we would add on to our books if we could. That we didn't at the time of publication, but now we're like ready to say, here's some stuff.

[00:43:25] Olivia: It's just such a smart way to get information right to teachers and keep information fresh. So, what would you say our call to action is moving forward? And it's hard because you wear so many hats. And so is it as caregivers? Is it as consultants? Is it as educators in the classroom? You know, take it any way you want. Um, but what, what do we need to do to move forward in this really messy, beautiful work? 

[00:43:56] Maggie: I have one. Again, I'm kind of going back to my mentor, Greg Michie, and he's back in the classroom, K-8 teaching. Seeing kids once a week, maybe, right? Teaching media studies from 5-year-olds to 14-year-olds. I think being in the classrooms, especially if you are, uh, supporting outside of being a classroom teacher, I think has always been important, but is necessary, just incredibly necessary.

[00:44:31] Maggie: Not as an evaluator, just I'm here to be alongside of you in however this class period is going to unfold. As a witness to what it's like right now, as a support, and I'm going to be in the work with you. I think that that is, um, really important right now.

[00:44:56] Kate: Yeah. And I think alongside it, like very closely related to that…welcome to our son…

[00:45:03] Olivia: I love it. I love. 

[00:45:06] Kate: We have to listen to each other, right?

[00:45:08] Kate: Like, and almost the way I think of it is like, whoever I serve, I need to really deeply listen to what they're saying to me. So if I serve students, I need to really hear what my kids are telling me. And obviously, that's very different. We're talking about all the disasters. There's plenty of places where kids came back. They’re okay, they're good, they're reading, they're writing.

[00:45:26] Kate: Things seem functional and okay, great. But then there are all these places where our students are telling us something has changed for me. I need something different. This isn't working in the same way as it used to. I think we need to hear that in any of us who work with teachers. We have got to listen to classroom teachers, what they're telling us about how hard the job is and why it's hard, and to stop sort of defaulting the way I know I have at times, and I've always fought against to thinking that people are making excuses.

[00:45:56] Kate: I think teachers have proven to us that they want to do the work. They want to work, right? They want to teach kids. They want to do the best job they can. So now let's listen to what it is that they need to make that happen.

[00:46:07] Olivia: Yeah, and they're showing up, right? We show up for a variety of reasons, but we keep coming back, and yet I think that when we know it's no longer our calling and that there's something else that's pulling at our heartstrings, it's also important to know when to walk away without shame with grace and love. 

[00:46:28] Kate: At the same time, the teachers who are leaving, almost all of them say, it's not teaching that's making me leave. It's not the kids. It's not me and the kids in the room. It's all the other stuff. And that's on us. We've got to do better. We've got to make this profession one that people do want to stay at. Yes, follow your dreams.

[00:46:44] Kate: But man, my dream was to teach. Right? And I think a lot of people, that's their dream, and then they get there, and it's too hard.

[00:46:54] Olivia: Well, thank goodness for The Content Shop, guys. Thank goodness, because you're making it a little bit easier. 

[00:47:00] Kate: A little bit.

[00:47:00] Olivia: A lot of bit. A little bit. 

[00:47:02] Kate: Making it a tiny bit easier. That's right.

[00:47:04] Olivia: That's it. That's it. So I can't thank you both enough for your time and energy into this work, and, um, yeah, just thank you for our conversation today. 

[00:47:15] Kate: It was great to talk to you, Olivia. Thank you. 

[00:47:16] Maggie: Thank you so much for all that you're doing. 

[00:47:19] Olivia: Take care. 

[00:47:21] Kate: Bye-bye.

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Olivia Wahl

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