I See, I Hear, I've Got You: Changing How We Teach with The NeuroWild Shift

In this S3E29 Schoolutions conversation, Emily (Em) Hammond shares why she built NeuroWild after her own late autism and ADHD diagnosis, and after years of translating abstract concepts into illustrations for the neurodivergent kids and families she works with as a speech pathologist. She walks through The NeuroWild Shift, her three-stage framework for classroom belonging and student engagement: I See You, I Hear You, I've Got You.

The conversation covers fluctuating capacity, why lowering the hoop matters more than raising expectations, and why rewards and punishment train kids to mask instead of thrive. Em and I talk about inclusive teaching, instructional strategies for neurodivergent students, and how educators can build a classroom culture where every kid, not just the neurodivergent ones, feels safe enough to try.

Em also breaks down why deep interests belong in every subject, how culturally responsive teaching and anti-bias teaching connect to equity in education, and why a pro-kid, whole child mindset produces thriving students and empowered educators. If you care about instructional leadership, school change, or just want inspired teaching that treats kids like people instead of behavior charts, this one's for you.

Episode Mentions:

• The NeuroWild Shift
• Dr. Ross Greene - Children will do well if they can.
• Vygotsky’s Zones of Development
• Neuro-affirming vs. neuro-damaging responses
• UDL
• Drive (excerpt) by Daniel Pink
• Em’s Teachers Pay Teachers Shop
  • NeuroWild Shift:    NeuroWild Shift Information Packet (49 pages) by Emily Hammond -NeuroWild (teacherspayteachers.com)   (This is the full-priced one.)
  • NeuroWild Shift Information Packet (49 pages), Parent Discount | TPT (teacherspayteachers.com) (This is the parent discount one.)
  • Free Executive functioning handout for classrooms:     Regulation and Executive Function Handout (7-page colored document) (teacherspayteachers.com)
  • Free handout for supporting ND students in classrooms:  Helping Neurodivergent Students Find Success in the Classroom | TPT (teacherspayteachers.com)

Connect and Learn with Em:

• on Instagram
• on Facebook

Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:01 Meet Emily Hammond
1:25 An inspiring teacher story
4:51 How Em built NeuroWild
8:13 Why the system fails neurodivergent kids
9:29 What is The NeuroWild Shift
10:58 Neurodivergent vs neurotypical, defined
12:31 Stage One: I See You
13:30 Stage Two: I Hear You
15:17 Stage Three: I've Got You
16:17 The basketball hoop analogy
19:21 What kids learn when they're shamed
23:37 The Opportunity stage
27:09 Zones of development and asset-based teaching
30:22 Neuro-affirming vs neuro-damaging responses
31:54 Teaching through deep interests
35:34 The mental health crisis for neurodivergent adults
39:26 Building a classroom where kids feel safe
42:23 Why rewards and punishment backfire
48:33 Where to find NeuroWild

Schoolutions is the podcast for educators and school leaders, families and homeschoolers, and the coaches, counselors, and mentors who believe every student deserves to thrive. Join our community of educators committed to cultivating student success, inspired teaching, and creating inclusive classrooms with a pro-kid mindset focused on the whole child.

🌿Ready to grow alongside your children? Book a coaching session with me here. We'll unlock the expert who is already within you and surround you with a community of educators committed to forever getting better through collective expertise.
🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

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When teachers, coaches, administrators, and families grow together, they create schools where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged, supported, and ready to thrive.

Transcript

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Schoolutions – S3 E29: The NeuroWild Shift for Neurodivergent Kids at School with Emily (Em) Hammond of NeuroWild

 

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, where listening will leave you inspired by solutions to issues you or others you know may be struggling with in the public education system today. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am thrilled to welcome my guest today, Emily Hammond. Let me tell you a little bit about Em. Em is a late diagnosed autistic and ADHDer, speech pathologist, illustrator, and the human behind the social media account, NeuroWild. Em is also a mother to three neurodivergent children. She spends her time creating illustrated resources explaining autism, ADHD, and neurodiversity in a colorful, easy to understand way and works with parents, clinicians, and educators to better understand the neurodivergent existence and better support their kids. Thank you Em for starting your day off by having this important conversation. 

[00:01:01] Em: Thanks for having me. Not that early in the morning here.

[00:01:05] Olivia: Not that early. Not that early. Well, it's five o'clock in the States and I think 7am your time around there. So… 

[00:01:12] Em: We're about nine o'clock now. So we are. 

[00:01:13] Olivia: Oh, really? Oh, okay. Got it. All right. Um, so with that said, I love to start every conversation by hearing an inspiring educator from your life. Would you share with listeners? 

[00:01:25] Em: Um, yes. This was a bit tricky for me too uh, land on, to be honest. Um, I would briefly mention, um, uh, my son's teacher who he had last year. Um, because it was the first real year of schooling experience where he thrived and I saw it and he, you know, came from a different school before, because, you know, and it was just not a good match. Um, this teacher managed to make him feel safe at school. Um, he was happy to go, he, every single day. Um, and he usually came home, you know, in quite good spirits. And the, the best feedback I got from her was, how funny my kid was in the classroom and that he had this, um, you know, quirky and funny personality.

[00:02:26] Em: And I went, what? Um, he, he is like that at home a little bit, but I have never seen him do that outside of my house. He has never been comfortable enough to be able to use humor, um, with, with his peer group and with other adults that are not his immediate family. So I went, oh, you are doing something really right there.

[00:02:45] Em: And that was, you know, that was everything for him. Especially coming from a different educational environment where he was not appreciated and where his, um, neurodivergent communication style was, uh, invalidated and shamed. So, to be in this environment now, where he has these, this adult appreciating him and she is modeling for all of the kids in his class, how to interact with a neurodivergent kid, how to appreciate, how to validate his, his choices and his preferences and, um, and make him feel safe. So that was, um, I appreciated that so much, and this is a whole new year this year. And so I am nervous because there is a new teacher for him. It's literally his first day today. So anyway, fingers crossed. 

[00:03:38] Olivia: Oh, wow. Wow. Okay. So this is, it's interesting timing then because the issue that I see way too often in schools in general, but public schools is that neurodivergent children often feel shame and they're not able to feel that success because of their fluctuating capacity and you are a solution. Your amazing, recently released NeuroWild Shift is a solution. And so I've been bothering you, my gosh, I think for a good year or so to be a guest on the podcast. And you said yes. And so I moved mountains. I would have done anything to be able to be in conversation with you, Em. Um, so I am just thrilled to have you speak to the The NeuroWild Shift. Everyone needs to know about this. Um, and before they do, I think it's important for them to hear a little bit about your story. And so you just spoke as a mom or from a mother's perspective, you know, who are you and how did you become the human behind NeuroWild? 

[00:04:51] Em: It happened very much by accident, to be honest. Um, I, it was kind of following, um, the diagnosis of my three kids. And then I arrived at this point in my life working professionally and just with a lot of, uh, sudden stress with starting a new job. We moved to a new house. My kids started a new school. Um, it was a lot. And I arrived at this, this point where I just went, I can't do anything. Nothing - I can't do the things I used to do. Um, my mind is just this hectic carousel of thoughts that just never, never, never, never stop. And, um, I'm not handling it very well. And so I ended up, you know, at my GP and, um, and then with a psychologist and, and they went, oh yeah, you are an ADHDer.

[00:05:42] Em: And I said, yes, I have already worked that out. Thank you. Here's all my research. And, um, and then a good year later that I also realized I'm also autistic and then had that, um, you know, identified by a psychologist too. So when I, within my job, I work pretty well, primarily with neurodivergent kids, um, by accident, that's just, that's just how it worked. Um, and I frequently found that I'm trying to explain kind of these abstract concepts to, you know, seven and eight and nine year olds and older kids and their families, and then their teachers. And it was such hard work because the resources that I needed to do it didn't exist. So… 

[00:06:25] Olivia: Yes.

[00:06:26] Em: I just went, well, I need to explain this in a way that you're going to really get and take on board. And I can think of an easier way to kind of simplify it, um, like some analogies that are going to make it really easy for you to grasp. And I guess I'll draw it. And so I drew them. And then realized, oh, well, I'm not going to be the only clinician in Australia, um, needing this stuff. This, there is, this is just this gap out in the world. We didn't have these, these resources. Um, so then I opened up an Instagram account and then a Facebook account and my TPT store and put them all there and, and then the response was utterly overwhelming in every way. And you know, it was never my intention to for that to happen. Um, I was just doing what I needed to do to be able to do my job.

[00:07:19] Em: Um, and yeah, just such a need. So, um, it went from there. And I, we, we are all, you know, we've also run into, you know, um, you know, personal experiences with school along the way, finding all of these challenges with having neurodivergent kids in a mainstream setting that then when I spoke about online, I had just thousands and thousands of parents going, this also happened to us, this is also our experience. And that really, really pushed me to want to do something about it because we, we currently have this system that is not set up for our neurodivergent kids. Um, so many kids are just failing there. And it's not, it's not due to a lack of effort. It's, it's due to the fact that they are put into a system that absolutely invalidates their experiences and their needs.

[00:08:13] Em: And, you know, we need system-wide change. Um, and I know that, but I couldn't sit and do nothing. So, um, that's kind of what led me to create The NeuroWild Shift, which is sort of my answer to compliance-based, um, behavior management models in, um, educational settings. So that's been very well received. It's been out in the world for probably less than a month. Um, and that's been very, I've been hopeful that, that so many people have said, this is what we need. And it's coming, especially coming from so many educators because I'm not a teacher, right? So I don't work in a classroom and I am very aware that I do not understand all the ins and outs of looking after thirty kids in the classroom with different, you know, with dynamic needs and with, um, quite sometimes strict, um, administration and protocols and all the rest. So I don't know that. So when I kind of made this, it was with hope that it would be suitable for a classroom. And so receiving the feedback that yes, this is, this is working really well for these children. Um, was a big relief. 

[00:09:29] Olivia: It's it's just magnificent. And I actually I lifted one of your descriptions of what The NeuroWild Shift is because it's so beautifully described, you say, “The NeuroWild Shift is a respectful, affirming approach that recognizes fluctuating capacity in neurodivergent students, prioritizes safety, well-being, um, self-esteem and a positive relationship with learning.”

[00:09:58] Olivia: Yes. Yes. Yes. And another descriptor, you know, if you're sitting, listening, saying, is this for me, it is for everyone. I don't think that it's just for neurodivergent children either. I see it as an educator, this is how we should interact with all children in addition to just I want kids to feel safe. And the way this step-by-step really takes us through as grownups pausing and considering our response, our reaction. Um, and so again, in your words, I loved this, “If you are a teacher, this is for you. If you have a neurodivergent kid at a school, this is for you (to give to the teacher). If you are a coordinator or a principal or work in a school, have a read. If you are an allied health professional, get around this so you can pass it on to your clients.”

[00:10:58] Olivia: Yes. I promise to put links to your TPT store, um, as well as Insta and, uh, your Facebook page. But I do want to take a moment, can you quickly define what is the difference between a neurodivergent human and a neurotypical human? 

[00:11:19] Em: Yeah. So the word neurodivergent, um, is, or neurodivergence basically is a big umbrella term that means any sort of um, neurology that differs from the typical or expected neurotypical one. So, um, neurodivergent brains include autistic people, ADHDers, um, dyslexic brains, uh, depending on who you ask, um, people with anxiety, people with depression, um, Tourette's, intellectual disabilities, anything that deviates from the typical or expected neurotype is, is considered to be neurodivergent. Um, and we often can be, have, you know, more than one neurodivergence. It's, it's, it's not as straightforward as this is your kind of brain and it's, you know, we're not fitting people into boxes. We're taking them out of boxes now and just saying, you know, who are you, who are you and what, what, what are your, um, your strengths, your challenges, your preferences, your personality, who are you and what do you need to thrive? And that's, that's what we, you know, in an ideal world, that would be the case. 

[00:12:31] Olivia: Indeed. Indeed. So let's get into what is The NeuroWild Shift? I know it's three phases, three steps. Can you start us off and explain? 

[00:12:41] Em: Sure. Um, so, yep, three stages. As you mentioned, the first is the I see you stage, and that is where an educator notices a student who is not meeting the expectation, right? Because a teacher in a classroom, it says to the class, um, you know, everybody take out your workbooks and do the first ten questions on the page. And sometimes kids don't do it, whatever, you know, there, and there could be lots of reasons for, you know, why not? Um, so the first stage is just. noticing what this neurodivergent kid is doing. Hey, they haven't made a start on this work. That, that was the expectation and they haven't made a start. So that's the first stage. It's just, hey, I've noticed this. And the teacher goes and says to the kid, I've noticed you haven't taken out your book and, and started the, the questions, very simple. Um, the second stage is, I hear you.

[00:13:30] Em: So it goes, I see you, I hear you. And stage number two, I hear you is the listening stage. I just want to, you know, very brief conversation with you about what's going on. Um, and it's none, none of the stages here um, can be judgmental or negative or, um, create anxiety. It is, it needs to be very, very neutral and positive and just, Hey, what's, you know, what's up with this? So first stage, I noticed you haven't made a start on this work. Number two, I wonder what's holding you up here. What's, what's going on for you and you can use whatever language you'd like. It doesn't matter. I'm not, you know, say what, however you need to say it, but it's just inviting the student to share whatever is going on for them in this moment.

[00:14:16] Em: And they might have, a really simple, um, answer. Like I don't have a, I don't have my book. I don't know where my book, you know, something like that, that the teacher can go, oh, here you go. Now you can make a start easy. We don't have to worry anymore. They very possibly might have a more complex reason for not doing this thing. And it might be anything from, I don't want to, I don't know how I can't. Um, I, it's too hard. Any of these sorts of things, right? Which are all valid. If the kid answers you, you're going to go back to your desk and write a note about whatever they said. There's also a very big possibility that this kid is not going to answer you in this stage. And it might just be, or I'm just going to look at the desk. I can't even get close to giving you a response for what my issue is here. I can't even do it. And if that is the case, teachers need to recognize that just because this kid can't put words to what is happening doesn't mean that there isn't something happening.

[00:15:16] Olivia: Yes, true. 

[00:15:17] Em: You know, being able to analyze the, the expectation, the executive functioning skills involved the skills that I currently have to match them up and go, hey, there's a discrepancy here and I can't get this thing done. And then to explain that to a teacher. When we're in this overwhelming, um, you know, heightened state. It's a big ask. So whether or not this kid answers us is, is beside the point. If they answer us, write it down, but if they don't, it doesn't matter. We're going to move along to stage three, which is the, I've got you stage. So it goes, I see you. I hear you. I got you. I am - this is, and this is the stage where the teacher connects with the kid. It is about safety and it is about adjusting the expectation, whatever it was in that moment, so that this kid can meet it. That is all. So, um, an analogy I like that I need to draw and I haven't drawn yet is, um, you know, a kid who is practicing shooting hoops, you know, with a, on a basketball court, right?

[00:16:17] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:16:17] Em: When you are learning that skill, doesn't the coach drop the hoop down, so that you can, you can reach that, that hoop to begin with until you get really confident? 

[00:16:27] Olivia: So that you get that sense of success 

[00:16:30] Em: And some, you know, some weeks that, that same kid might show up to practice and even, even if the hoop is brought down a little bit, they are still having trouble with that hoop at that, that level, it might be brought down even more. And if they are upset, if they are stressed, if they are in tears, if they are saying, I want to quit. This is too hard. I feel like the coach is going to put supports in place to get them that, that sense of success. They are certainly not going to hoist the hoop all the way up and go, you need to, you need; that's not what happens. And so, within the classroom, it's about the kid going, I can't, for some reason, I cannot meet this expectation as it is. And the teacher going, okay, I'm going to adjust this expectation so you can meet it because our neurodivergent kids experience, you mentioned this before, fluctuating capacity, which means due to our neurological systems of processing and just our wiring, we, it means our best changes from day to day. So yesterday my best might be this and today I'm trying my best, but I can only give you this. And it's to do with my mental energy, my mental capacity, my level of sensory overwhelm, um, my level of emotional regulation, it is to do with my physical health and my physical fatigue and my, my wellness and, and all these sorts of other things.

[00:17:52] Em: It's, it's a very important thing to know about any neurodivergent people that we experience this fluctuating capacity and on the days when we have less capacity, us putting more effort in is not going to achieve the thing. Because we are already trying hard and it's just a math game. You know, we, we might have, um, ten left in the tank and this expectation costs twenty and we can't do that. So with the adjustment stage, the teacher is recognizing, I know this kid is trying in my classroom. We are always assuming that these kids will do well if they can do well. So that's from Dr. Ross Greene. And it means if they had the capacity to do this right now and meet this expectation, they would. And we know that because sometimes they do.

[00:18:41] Em: Sometimes they get this, they get through this work without a peep and it's easy. And you don't even, you don't even realize. And on those times they have the capacity and they get it done. The other times when they do not have the capacity, because maybe it has been drained by all of these other things so far. It's important for the teacher to adjust that expectation so that this child can still feel a sense of achievement in the classroom. They, it is really damaging for our kids to learn that having fluctuating capacity is something that they should be ashamed of or something that is problematic or wrong with them or, you know, gets them in trouble.

[00:19:21] Em: Unfortunately, that is what they are taught because, you know, what, what do we currently see kids don't do the work in the classroom and the teachers go, you need to get this work done or you're not having recess and they are sitting there going, well, you've increased my anxiety now, by saying that. I'm already worried enough.

[00:19:36] Em: I'm already trying my best, but I can't do this. Then they get held in a recess or whatever. They get the consequence and they learn. School is not very nice; that it's not a safe place. This teacher's mean. She doesn't, she doesn't understand. Like I was trying. Um, and when this happens day in, day out, these are the kids that are experiencing significant school can't. They can't get there. It is the most anxious place in the world. It is not safe. It's not a place they can go and learn. Um, you know, we can't learn when all our emotions are at a million and we feel sick just walking in the door. So with the whole point of The NeuroWild Shift is to help, you know, it's to give kids this connection with the teacher that the teacher really gets them, but for them to know the classroom is a safe environment for me, even on days when my capacity is really low, I am, I am not going to be shamed or yelled at when I can't, I cannot line up my ducks to get this expectation met for you because the teacher understands.

[00:20:38] Em: Right? So. That's basically the third stage. It's the I've got you stage. There are lots of ways that teachers can adjust the expectation in the I've got you stage. Um, and it might be modifying the task so that there is less, less of it. You know, if you ask this kid to do ten sentences and that was, for whatever reason too much, it's going and saying to the kid, oh, I know like ten sentences can be, can be feel like a lot some days. I wonder if you could maybe do six. What do you think? I don't know. The kid might be like, that's too many. It's like, what do you think? How many do you think you could get done today? What do you think? It's inviting this child to bring their personal expertise about themselves to say, what could you do in this moment? And I'm going to make that. I'm going to fix it. So that that is what you can show me right now. When the kid does it, amazing job, you did your six sentences. That's what I asked you to do. I love it. There is no, there's no shame about, well, you didn't do the ten like everybody else. You are just being problematic for me.

[00:21:39] Em: It's none of that. This kid goes, I got these six done and they were really good. And the teacher is happy with me. Right? And it's about that relationship with learning the, um, bit on the end as well, is after the three stages, we also have the stage for opportunity. And that is when we, we recognize, yep, our kids have got fluctuating capacity. Sometimes they're working with less capacity, but sometimes they've got quite a lot of capacity. Some days they are walking into that classroom feeling really good. And like, I see this with my children all the time. I know, you know, I know about myself, but when they have got the mental capacity when they are pretty regulated, when they are not super overwhelmed, when they have been climbing around my monkey bars for two hours, and then they get to the work after that, sitting at a table, doing book work or whatever, it is easy for them because they have the capacity to do it readily without any sort of anxiety.

[00:22:38] Em: It's easy. They don't even have to think about it. On in those situations and in the classroom, right? If the teacher, if the kid has quickly and readily met an expectation, that is a sign for the teacher that capacity is all right today, I'm going to give them an opportunity to extend if they want. And it's, it's sort of like, do you want to show off to me right now? Do, are you feeling clever? Are you feeling on top of this right now that you want to show me that this was easy work for you today? And actually you are really, really good at school right now. So are you, my goodness, you got these ten words done so fast. I can't even believe that. Do you think you could even do like three more sentences? Do you think you could do that? And it's, it is just an opportunity that you can just drop in their lap and they can take it or they can leave it. There is no - well, you've done that and now you need to do more. Like that's not what's happening. It's just going, if you want right now, do you want to take this opportunity and show off a little bit?

[00:23:37] Em: And they might take it or they might leave it. Right? And it's, it is recognizing again that their fluctuating capacity, but on the I've got the capacity to get it done side, rather than I don't have the capacity and I need you to adjust the expectation. So that is all of the stages, right? So it’s I see you, I noticed something, I hear you, please let me know what's happening if you can, I've got you, I'm going to help you in this moment; I'm going to adjust the expectation so you can meet it. And if it was really easy for you today, if that's what I noticed, here's an opportunity that you can take or you can leave. And I'm, I'm hoping with this NeuroWild Shift, that kids and teachers are going to learn I don't need to be stressed to be in the classroom. I don't need to be stressed when I get work on my table that I - is that it's too much. I don't need to be worried about that because my teacher has got me. We have this, this thing going where she's going to help me if I need it. And just that sense of safety and connection is going to help our kids feel more regulated.

[00:24:39] Em: Their anxiety is going to be less. Their stress is going to be less. And because of those things, automatically they are going to do better. They are going to be able to access more of their skills just because they're in this, you know, neutral and kind of happy frame of mind just to be in the classroom. That is the whole point. So, um, it is a little bit about playing the long game with this. If you've got kids in your class, especially if they're getting on up through primary school or into high school and they have learned for years that teachers are unsafe, school is unsafe, work sucks, I'm, I'm not good at it, I've got six years worth of report cards that tell me I'm bad at school, this is not going to be a quick thing to fix, for them to like, it is an adjustment for them to realize school maybe could be an okay place for me. ut there's a lot of trauma perhaps that needs to be kind of undone. So it will not be a short, a short thing for those, those kids. Um, but it's important because they're the ones that are going to burn out.

[00:25:41] Em: They are, they are not going to, you know, and I, with, in terms of the modifying the work, you know, because the main thing I've got in my mind is teachers might turn around and say, I, you know, this curriculum requirements though, I can't, I need these kids to tick off X, Y, and Z because of the curriculum or because of whatever. And to that, I kind of say, well, if you know, sure, let's prioritize the curriculum. These kids are not able to access that curriculum when they are feeling super anxious, super stressed, super dysregulated, and unsafe at school and learning that their brain is terrible. Like they, they are not in the right frame of learn frame of mind to learn anything. So it is the safety needs to come first. And from there you will see, I hope, I believe that academic impact, I think. And, and also, you know, and I don't talk about behavior, but you will see that, right, because when, when kids are anxious, when they're stressed, that is when we see these challenging behaviors that teachers do not want, right?

[00:26:42] Em: I get that. But if we were to lower the anxiety for this child, lower the stress, if they felt safe in this room, if they didn't need to try and, you know, procrastinate, get out of all this work, then what might their behavior look like? I feel like, all the outcomes that teachers want will come once this is kind of firmly established in the classroom. That is my theory. That's what I hope. Um, and I feel like I've talked for a thousand years now, so I'm going to stop. 

[00:27:09] Olivia: No. So I, well, I, I, you're actually making me think two different pieces, um, about two different pieces - one of them being as adults, when we are learning or when we are struggling, our anxiety is off the charts. We, we shut down when we feel shamed. Um, and so that idea of parallel practice, I think as human beings in a classroom, many, many teachers are very overwhelmed right now with the planning, with the amount of work that is being asked of them. So having that sense of empathy for their children in their classroom to say, wait a second, you know, I think The NeuroWild Shift can apply to grownups too.

[00:27:54] Em: Of course!

[00:27:54] Olivia: You know, and across that idea of parallel practice across the whole school community. So I see great. possibilities for this. I also lean heavily in my work on zones of development, which is very Vygotskyian - Lev Vygotsky’s work. And I think a lot about asset-based mindset versus deficit and thinking of children. If we're naming a child's strengths and starting in that zone of actual development and starting every conversation off, you know, I know that you are really able to do this.

[00:28:29] Olivia: Even if it's a good or bad day, I've seen you naming for a child that's struggling in a moment. I've seen you do this, this, this so beautifully, uh, starting with that. And then that stretch or zone of proximal being: here's what I think you may be able to stretch to today. So that adjustment, I got you really knowing that child well as a human naming the strengths, and then I got you, here are some options of what I think you could do today based on what I've seen you shine doing, going to zone of frustrational, I call it future, but it's not always future. It could be way future, that future or the, the frustrational. That's when we shut down. That's when, you know, you're asking way too much, way too fast. I've seen adults shut down. I've seen children shut down. So I don't know. I think that this has such incredible possibility and, Em, I'm using it even as a mom.

[00:29:28] Olivia: My old, my older son right now, I've got news. He's learning how to drive. It's pretty dicey. And my husband is a godsend. He is taking on most of it because I am like, gripping. I'm making him more nervous and helpful, but it's when we're in that vehicle and there's all different things we may want to correct, what is the thing in the moment that I see you, I hear you, I got you. And. I don't want the car to be in a crash. So here's what we're going to do. Uh, but I just, I think that it's, it's a really powerful thing. And your talent with illustration is captivating. And I think that the idea of story is so important to be able to articulate and have children be able to explain what they're feeling through your drawings.

[00:30:22] Olivia: It's amazing. Um, I do want to pause and just think of you've already named the inappropriate adjustment when we're saying adjust it's again - you don't adjust to say, this is what I asked the class to do, so you have to do this. That's not adjusting. 

[00:30:39] Em: That's not adjusting. 

[00:30:41] Olivia: It's not adjusting at all. And then I think of the idea of neuro-affirming versus neuro-damaging responses. So let's just linger there for a moment. When children have interests and they want to write every piece about their bunny Oreo; I as a first grade teacher had a child, Isabella. I'll never forget that (she's now like 25 years old), but when she was six, she really loved her bunny Oreo. And I could have said, no, no, you've already written a story about Oreo. You need to write a nonfiction book about something else. Instead, no, we learned about Oreo through every lens possible; poetry, narrative stories, all about the chapter books that to me was celebrating her interest and how to take care of Oreo. So I think like, you know, what does it mean when we're talking about neuro-affirming behavior for adults or responses when it comes to interest and also when it comes to assessment, because our kids have to suffer through quite a bit of assessments in schools these days.

[00:31:54] Em: Yeah. So our deep interests are so major for neurodivergent kids and adults and humans a lot of the time, and I, it actually does not make sense to me that adults don't want to utilize that, that, you know, this, this kid is telling you, this is the key to my motivation right now. You know, you should take it because if I was right, you know, you said writing a story, I'm writing a story about my bunny Oreo. Like, you know, it's going to be a 10-page story versus me trying to write half a paragraph about your prompt, whatever it was, your topic, um, as you said, you can, you can allow your students to bring in their deep interest into just about every subject because I have seen it done. I have seen it done the best by autistic teachers who go, yeah, we're doing maths and we're trying to learn about this kind of graph.

[00:32:52] Em: Great. I'm going to get you to do a little bit of research about rabbit sizes. And that's what you can graph for me today. Like it's, I know it can be uncomfortable for anybody to have to move away from the plan that they had in their mind, which is the kids have been asked to write: this is the task, this is the outcome. And they need to do that for me to take it off in my classroom today. Right? But a lot of the time, probably outside of those like key assessment tasks that we'll come back to a lot of the time, the outcome might be something like learning to write a discussion or it might be, um, handwriting, or it might be, um, I'm going to be learning this particular, um, letter combination in this spelling, whatever, or it might, do you know what I mean?

[00:33:35] Em: The, the outcome could be ticked off with any content. It could be the flavor of that could be anything. And it's just, well, did you write a discussion? Yup. It was about Oreo. Great. I can tick off that you understand the features of a discussion in a written like that is allowed. That's, that's universal learning design and just going, I'm going to be flexible with you. Because. It's if it's a choice between you doing that or not doing this at all, why would we go with this option? Let's let this kid show us how great they are when they are writing about their bunny. And I'm getting the handwriting ticked off. I'm looking at the spelling going amazing. I'm we're getting the introduction and written idea development.

[00:34:20] Em: We're getting all of that. I'm going amazing job. It's just starting them on the right foot because we are removing that barrier, that big executive functioning barrier of can I focus on this? Am I engaged? Am I motivated to do it? We don't need to put those in the way every single time. I know that's really uncomfortable for lots of teachers to hear, but it's, I think it's, it makes sense. That is the most respectful way to be teaching our kids is going, I'm going to really change the environment for you so that it's so that you can thrive. And the way that I do that is letting, like getting your, letting your brain go to a place where it is lit up, which is letting you use your deep interest, making sure you're safe in the classroom, making sure there's sensory accommodations in place, so you're not overwhelmed. Um, and making sure that I can adjust the expectation if, if it's too much, like that's, that's it. I think, or if we are ticking all these things off, these kids are going, school's all right. Like I'm, I'm quite okay here. And for kids down the line to be accessing the curriculum and learning outcomes and, you know, meeting all of those expectations that adults have, they need to be at school!

[00:35:34] Em:. If we break them, they will not, they will not end up at school consistently. They're going to need every second day off. They're going to be waking up with headaches and feeling sick and being awake all night with anxiety that has happened to me and my children. And that's, that's not a conducive situation for them to go to, to learn anything. That doesn't make sense either. As I said, you know, if we're starting from safety and connection, you're going to see all of those other things and it's the, you know, these, I'm going to shift a little bit. One of the big, big concerns that I have as a human, as a parent, as a clinician is the mental health of our neurodivergent population.

[00:36:13] Em: It is horrifically bad. The, you know, the mental health statistics are harrowing and there are few neurodivergent adults around, you know, at the moment who are okay because they have come through systems that have not been designed to support them, they have been designed to squash us. And yeah, there's lots of, you know, disciplines and allied health and all the rest that are still doing that now, and it's, it doesn't work. It's not good enough. It's damaging. So when, when kids, you know, show up to school as, as kindergartners or whatever, and, you know, hopefully they show up bright-eyed, feeling happy to be there excited. They, they, you know, kids love to learn, love to learn until we make the learning absolutely inaccessible for them, but they go to the classroom, happy to be there. And then they are taught from the posters on the walls, from the rules of the teacher, from the way the teacher responds to their behavior, their preferences, their social communication style, their play style, and their fluctuating capacity; they learn, I am not very good at this. They, that gets internalized.

[00:37:20] Em: It becomes anxiety. It becomes this big stress that we don't want to be there. All of the other kids watch this child being naughty in the classroom because the teacher's yelling, the teacher's giving them, um, demerits, they're moving them up the behavior chart, they're missing rewards. They've been kept in at lunch. All of the kids learn that about that, that child. And then they tell them and go, you're uh rubbish at school. The teacher's thinking you're rubbish. We think you're rubbish. And so now you think you're rubbish. And that's not, I mean, obviously that is not a healthy journey to be on. And It's not sustainable.

[00:37:53] Em: It's not something that you can get to the end of and go, I'm quite okay now. It doesn't happen. So yeah, that's what I'm trying to get on top of now. And there's such an opportunity, especially in early years of school in primary. To set that tone that everybody has a different brain and a different body.Everybody has different preferences and skills and challenges. And when Jack will not sit in his seat because it's really uncomfortable and he can't concentrate like that, he can be wandering or moving around to the side of his desk or at the back of the classroom. And rather than the teacher saying, Jack, I have asked you five times to sit down you're distracting everybody. The teacher can be like, oh, Jack, I love that you are moving your body so you can, so you can focus on this story. Everyone like good job, Jack. That's amazing. And nobody, no kid in the class is going, look at Jack being naughty. They're going, he's making a good choice right now for his learning style.

[00:38:47] Em: Why can't we do that? That is, that costs nothing. That is just an, a culture that teachers can build from the ground up in their classroom, as soon as they walk in the door and kids are the ones who are able to get on board with that so much quicker than adults and to know you don't need to be perfectly still when you're learning.

[00:39:04] Em: You don't need to be perfectly like deathly quiet. Um, we can all do different amounts of the same work. We can all be learning about a discussion, but we're talking about the things that light us up and being curious about each other rather than you're doing it differently to me, your way is wrong and you need to fix it or you're going to get in trouble and you're being naughty.

[00:39:26] Olivia: Yeah. Something I have a privilege, um, I'm, I'm working with a school district very closely and one of the teachers in particular is very open about her neurodivergence, about her children's neurodivergent learning styles. And she really honors every child in the class. The other aspect, though, that is happening all the time in her classroom, risks are being taken safely. She is publicly taking risks with colleagues being able to come into her room. She's trying new strategies with children. And it is really scary as a grown up to be vulnerable and to try new things. But she is publicly taking that chance all the time in her classroom, her children see that, they see she names like, I'm really nervous.

[00:40:21] Olivia: I feel very anxious. Um, and being able to say how she's feeling. I have watched just her blossom as a newer teacher, a, a second career, but a newer teacher, and that is a classroom I would die to have my kids be a part of because of that welcoming. And my younger son will say like he's in middle school now. So you go from the safety somewhat of elementary into the middle school here of shifting through periods and having a variety of adults that are in your life. And he will name if a child has been shamed in a class and he'll use that word. And I'll say, well, how did you respond? And often, sometimes it's that he's trying to help a child navigate something that was challenging and then the adult gets angry for talking. So I'll just ask, you know, grownups out there, we really need to think about what is happening in our classrooms and how are the children supporting each other? Cause we take so much on our, our, our shoulders as a grownup, but our kids are lovely to each other if we let them be and get out of their way often. So I see that whole idea of I've got you; that's something that the whole class needs to have that essence of I've got you when you need that extra support, not just a grownup. And that was something I thought about a lot when I was looking at your drawing and thinking of that step.

[00:41:56] Olivia: It's I've got you as a community. And, you know, we can circle up or not, whatever's going to make you feel safe to take that step forward, whatever it is for you. So, Em, I just, um, I think a lot about you and your perspective and how selfless you are and vulnerable and sharing where you are in very different moments of a day.

[00:42:23] Olivia: Um, and, and the last thing I want to just have you illuminate is it, when we're talking about The NeuroWild Shift, it's not about rewards, it's not about consequences. And I want to, I want to end with that. It's, it's really about that intrinsic, like I can do this, but it's not getting a reward from it outside of that intrinsic. Would you describe it as that? 

[00:42:50] Em: It's…honestly the rewards and, um, you know, that, that's just that behavioral approach of you. You are going to do this, this right thing to get this thing that you want - it needs to go. It needs to, because it is, it is used so terribly, like I doesn't, it is used so terribly in classrooms because more often than not, what it is used for is I'm going to reward these often neurodivergent students when they suppress all their neurodivergent traits, when they hold in their needs, when they pretend to be this other person and they use all of these neurotypical, um, or when they exhibit these neurotypical behaviors and mannerisms and preferences and the teacher goes, yes, tick, tick, tick, here's a sticker for you. We would really like you to continue to pretend to be this neurotypical version of yourself forever. And because that's the only version we want to see here.

[00:43:47] Em: It is so damaging. Long-term, it breaks us. We arrive at adults and go, I don't know who I am. I don't know. I don't have any skills here. I don't know how to listen to my body because I have been trained forever to ignore my needs and I had it rewarded with stickers and with tokens. It's, it's, this, this program, this, this strategy and the shift does not work with rewards and punishments. It does not. It's the opposite of that because it is about giving this child, it's about safety and connection. They, it's, it's just about, you know, I can see, I see you, I see you for what's happening right now. And I understand that you would do this if you could. So me offering you a reward to get this done right now is not going to have any sort of impact on you because you are already trying hard. I don't need you trying so hard that you're going to snap right in my classroom and vomit on the floor. Like, I don't want that. I would like you to try as hard as you, you, you are already trying, but within a safe margin, you know, that you are not absolutely wrecking and exhausting yourself.

[00:44:48] Em: So with the, you know, with the opportunity stage, we're, we're offering this opportunity, but if they go, no, I don't want to six sentences was enough. I don't want to do any more. Great. You are, maybe you have just spent all of your capacity and you do not have any more. And it's you saying, right, I don't actually have any more, but my hands actually hurting. No, I can't do any more. Brilliant. Right? It's the, it's a really, um, awful thing for anybody to learn that the only reason you try hard, the only reason that you do the right thing is for somebody else's approval or somebody else's reward. That's not,  I think we can, I think our kids are better than that. I think they are intrinsically motivated to be kind, to do the right thing without somebody else going, here's a sticker that is absolutely so separate from anything else that you were just doing to say, you did a good job. Please do more of that. Right? That's what behaviorism is about, but you know, them being kind to a friend means that they are strengthening this friendship, which is intrinsically rewarding as it is.

[00:45:55] Em: They don't need a teacher to come by and go, oh, I like how you were kind. Here's a sticker. You know, they are getting it. this authentic and deep and natural social feedback from this other kid that the way they just behaved was a good way because now we're playing and we're having fun. Like it's, we don't need to go in and go, we don't need to, we just do not need to. And it's, it's something we need to really move far away from. Like, yeah, The NeuroWild Shift is absolutely nothing about rewards and consequences because we're keeping at the front of our mind, these kids are already trying. You know, as an adult, if you know, if I, if I'm having a day and I'm trying to get a job done and my capacity is not enough for me to do the job, somebody coming in and giving me a punishment for not doing it or making me feel bad about not doing it, that's not going to help me to do it, but I'm going to be furious at that person or probably just really, really upset. I might shut down. Like, how dare my husband come in and say that when he should know I am trying, this literally happened to me yesterday. I'm trying my best, lost my mind. And he was just like it was a whole thing, um, you know, we, we don't often do this to adults, but we do it to kids. We, we, we always give adults the grace, this benefit of the doubt that I know that you are trying. And we, we don't extend that same thing to children and we need to, um. We, we do. And, um, I will say separately from that, there, there will be.

[00:47:24] Em: Plenty of neurodivergent adults out there, because I hear them say it, that they, they set up their own reward system for themselves. They, they, you know, have in their mind when I finished this task, I'm going to reward myself with this. Righ? I feel like this is a different situation and it's something that especially ADHDers really are looking for that dopamine, that reinforcement that they go, this is my, my reward chemical because I'm not making it in my brain naturally. So here's my reward here. And I'm going to set it up myself. It is a choice. I'm making understanding my brain, understanding my learning style. And that is different from adults just forcing this rewards and punishment situation onto classrooms of kids just as the normal thing, this is different. You know, if you're an adult that wants to put rewards in place for yourself, fine. It's fine. And if you're an older kid, who's going, well, I just need this extra bit of motivation. I'm going to make the choice to have this reward available to me at the end. That's my choice. It's about choice. It's about autonomy, right? It's not, you know, our kids have got a lot of knowledge and we kind of crush it. And we need to just probably do a bit more learning from them and not the other way around. 

[00:48:33] Olivia: I couldn't agree more. And, Em, just for you to know, my expedition in life right now is to attach research to every nuance of what I believe to be true and what practices I hope to see. Everything you're describing right now is so beautifully articulated with Daniel Pink's work in Drive.

[00:48:57] Olivia: Um, are you familiar with his work? Oh, you would love it. And so like, I have a small excerpt, um, I'll send it to you, but it speaks to autonomy and mastery and the whole nuance of like having choice and voice to practice and grow. So it just, it captures a lot of The NeuroWild Shift. And I just, I am grateful for you as an advocate, um, and your vulnerability just on social, but in general. And so thank you. Thank you for all of your hard work to, um, make lives of children and adults, uh, better. So thanks, Em, so much. 

[00:49:38] Em: Hopefully one day it will change. 

[00:49:53] Olivia: It will. It will. And it's baby steps. As you said, it's a long game often. So everyone go to TPT, NeuroWild, um, Emily Hammond, and look at The NeuroWild shift. And it is life changing. Thanks, Em. take care. 

[00:49:57] Em: Thanks for having me.

[00:49:59] Olivia: Schoolutions is a podcast created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guest, Emily Hammond. Also, a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. I would love for you to share the podcast far and wide. Leave a review, subscribe on YouTube, and follow us on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and Facebook @schoolutionspodcast. If you'd like to become a Schoolutions sponsor or share episode ideas, leave me a SpeakPipe voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast, or connect via email at @schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Please keep listening. Let's continue finding inspiration together.